The Old Testament Myths AREN'T Original? 📖
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.ค. 2024
- Today we're joined by the fantastic Dr Josh Bowen: expert Assyriologist to talk about the Ancient Near Eastern myths that inspired the Old Testament. If you're a history fan, interested in learning some contextual history to better understand the stories of the OT or if you're looking to debate fundamentalist apologists, this is the one for you!
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If you want to dig deeper into the myths borrowed by the Old Testament, do please consider checking out Dr Josh's 7 part lecture series using my affiliate link: emmathorne1--pursuit4knowledge.thrivecart.com/ot-myths/
Thank you lovely people!
Emma I love you, your bubbly personality and wit bring me much joy.
While I always find your topics and interviews interesting and enlightening, I just had to take a moment to comment on your voice. You sound so much like the actress Elizabeth Henstridge, and it is so delightful. I could listen to you just for the sake of listening, and the fact that you always have such incredible information makes it all the better.
When I was young, I liked to watch Nova. I'm talking like 80s and 90s by the way, Those kinds of shows on the public broadcast system back in. the day. and then I would go to church with my mom and they would talk about Genesis. That, wouldn't make any sense. Genesis talks like from the point of view here being the center of everything in existence, to the point of view of a lot of people, the center of the universe, which that's too small too. We're talking about the entirety of the whole void of space. This being called God or whatever, if it exists, which I'm kind of leaning towards. Yes, but you would have to look at everything it's ever said from the point of view. of where it is. The outside of our void and our existence, our time and space. Looking in utilize a spear, a globe, a ball. And think of that as the entire void. And in the center there was a big bang. Genesis That's the way I look at Genesis and then. that is how it makes sense. Adam was made from the dust of the Cosmos. The Garden of Eden is the entirety of the void of space. And if Scientists are right. which II thought of years ago, and I'm glad they actually started thinking this way too. If all black holes Cannib alize each other You would have to think they become one black hole eventually absorbing everything in existence and then. collapsing in itself. becoming another Big Bang. If that's the case, how many cycles did Adam Go through before it got Eve? Yes, he is not a he. She's not a she. They are. It's they're beyond comprehension. They don't need food, water, oxygen. They don't reproduce like we do. They don't need gravity. Time doesn't affect them. Hundreds of trillions of years go by and there's still an existence. Forever goes by. There's still of existence. What we consider forever anyway. Different point of view for this being called God who or what it is. as unknown how long. and how long it's been around is something that is beyond comprehension. It is beyond comprehension. People try to play it down to where they can comprehend it. That would be sacrilegious. to downplay what such a being has done to something that you could comprehend and not realize you're supposed to go forth be fruitful. Multi from the point of view. of this being called God outside the Voiter space looking in We haven't even gotten started yet. And they're saying we've gone far enough They're ready to go back.
Look at the "Gilgamesh Epos" .. ;)
🦧
I have NEVER gotten an apology from an apologist!
I'm so sorry.
To my surprise, I did get one this very week. He said that he might have been a little bit sarcastic. Which he was, but I didn’t actually mind because I was too.
I would have preferred he apologise for misunderstanding my points and moving the goalposts, but you can’t have everything, can you?
I did several times. They always say they're sorry I'm going to hell and want to help. 😅
That’s really funny. 😂
christianity needs REAL apologists. People who go around saying "We're so sorry about christianity, what can we do to make up for it?" And then do things like push for reparations for slavery, work to get religion out of government, organize protests against churches, that sort of thing.
So refreshing to hear the bible discussed as one ancient text among many, with its own context, intertextuality and intentionality. As a mythographer raised atheist, this is what I hoped "religious education" classes in school would be. I never understood the exceptionalism related to the Abrahamic texts, nor the arbitrary distinctions made between miracles and magic, prayer and spells etc. I also love to hear ancient texts and myths discussed in a post-structuralist context - the differences matter!
The exceptionalism is that people chose to believe it. That’s it…that’s all. Actual believer’s who are not delusional do not make claims of knowing for a fact that what they’re reading are facts….they believe they are and they are comfortable with that faith.
@@soulanstreets222actual believers that are not delusional seems like an oxymoron, if you believe that which is false, isn’t that delusional?
@@skepticsinister It’s only a delusion if it is actually proven to be false and we already know that the existence of God cannot be proven or disproven. It’s faith or disbelief.
@@soulanstreets222considering proving a negative is impossible, I'm just going to assume that this is the delusion you're discussing in action
....when you said: The arbitrary distinctions made between miracles and magic, prayer and spells..... Is that how you view it? That is an interesting take for me, that it could all be chalked up to magic, not miracles. Only curious, and I'm not coming from a religious angle fyi.
I took a mandatory class on world religions at university and the whole first part of the semester was about this stuff. Completely forgot about it until now, that was such an interesting class.
And of course fundamentalists desperately don't want people to learn about this, which is why they scream about universities "indoctrinating" everyone. (When in fact they are UNindoctrinating people.)
When I was a university senior, I took a two term class on the bible as literature. We examined the bible like another other book. As you say, an interesting class. 😉
Read one holy book and you might be in a cult for life. Compare several and you're done with religion in an afternoon.
You might be done with taking such texts literally
”I've been involved in a number of cults, both as a leader and a follower. You have more fun as a follower, but you make more money as a leader." -Creed Bratton
My first exposure to this was when my son took a mythology class in high school. I found out that the virgin birth story was an old mythological standby way before the Jesus story. I was already an atheist, but I found this to be eye opening.
This is the sort of thing that would drive the fundamentalists up the friggin' wall. They'd go on a rampage talking about how the government is trying to brainwash their kids and turn them all into sexless drones or something. "First they came after our guns, now they're coming after our lord and savior!" Etc., etc. The sad and scary thing is that this is approximately 40% of the country (about a hundred million plus).
My understanding is that "virgin births" specifically aren't really old mythological standbys. Gods having sex with mortal women (often in unusual and mysterious ways) who then give birth to demigods or great heroes is.
The Christian twist on that for Jesus likely comes from adopting the basic idea, but adapting it to fit a more transcendent God and the focus on purity in Judaism of the time
Crecganford is a great channel for these types of stories. Highly recommend!
@@adamk.7177 I watched a few Crecganford videos, but he seemed very focused on tying everything to the Indo-Europeans, which has the same problem as tying it all to Babylon.
@@jeffmacdonald9863 That's a good point. Bringing in the concept of virginity may muddy the waters. From my understanding, it would probably be most accurate to say that magical or miraculous births are a common motif. Heroes often have some divine origin. The Power of Myth by Joseph Campbell is a good starting point.
Emma, I very much admire the fact that you took a moment to recognise the brilliance that is the Doctor’s tie. May I say your butterfly blouse is likewise noteworthy! I appreciate appreciation in the community!
Dr Josh’s commitment to the bowtie is admirable, and they suit him perfectly.
I think his equally-estimable wife Megan has as many different styles of eyeglasses as Josh has of bowties…
@@cuzned1375 "estimable" thank you for my new word today :)
Have you seen his wife Megan Lewis? Her glasses and hair dyes are amazing. She does a weekly podcast with Bart Ehrman, here on YT.
@@cuzned1375 Oh, Wow, I am glad to know that Megan has a husband as stylish as her. What a wonderful Couple.
Agreed! I noticed that butterfly blouse right away. A perfect blouse for YT. Bright and attractive and all concentrated up high enough to be seen on a YT screen. Brilliant!
I love hearing Dr Bowens list of areas of study because it sounds like you're introducing a Stargate character
My absolute favorite meme is a single panel, and it says (paraphrasing because I don’t remember the exact wording since I haven’t seen it in a while), “Telling someone that they have to live their lives based on your beliefs, is like telling someone that they can’t eat a donut because you’re on a diet.” I keep trying to find the image again, but I can’t find the exact one, and I’m not very good with computers, so I can’t recreate it myself.
I see what you did there ... subtly throwing shade at vegans on the sly.
@@caribbeanman3379only if you think taking on a food regime to lose weight and making an ethical stance are synonymous…..
@@stufour Only if you don't know what subtly means.
@@caribbeanman3379that's a false analogy what you did there
@@stufour Taking on a food regime to lose weight is being used as an analogy for Christian ethics by OP, but you object to a food regime to lose weight being used as an analogy for veganism?
If the analogy doesn't work for veganism, it definitely doesn't work for Christianity.
Greetings from Germany. Two of the English speaking persons I most enjoy listen to have a conversation. This day couldn't get any better.
"Make them make sense!" I can say, as an American who was raised Mormon, this is absolute heresy. Heresy! Once I sort out what the Bible says, exactly, about that then I'll do... something! Something!
Absolute madness, isn't it?
😂
my advice for you, once you you've sorted out what the bible is all about, would be to keep it in the bathroom against the next pandemic run on toilet paper, but i'm certain that option will suggest itself to you before you're finished anyway.
@@thehellyousayna, you keep it near the stash for emergency rolling paper. Nothing hits like a Jesus Joint
@@mcpudd1540 pocket bibles, maybe. i was in prison a long time ago, and yes, they can be used to roll a smoke in a pinch, but a proper family sized bible beside the johnson can see you through those pandemic-related shit ticket shortages like no other publication can ...
Nice. Woke up, sat down, BOOM, new Emma. Perfect.
Wow! I discovered this on my own the very hard way as a Syrian Teenager 15 years ago! ... The proverbs used 5,000 years old or more, are still used into modern day colloquial Syrian Arabic. The same examples and proverbs, and same exact metaphors.
Could you give us a few fun selections, if they translate into English?
We need to see Dr. Josh do his Kent Hovind impression.
It's the best thing anyone has ever done with their pants on.
This is a fun way to find out Eminem sampled a Joan Jett song
You just read my mind!
plot twist. it ain't a joan jett song. she only covered it.
@@thehellyousayCool info! It actually helps his point even more!
True, that much of the Genesis stories are based on the gilgamesh epos was already tought to me in catholic class, but they kept the Eminem - Joan Jett knowledge from us
Surprise!
I was NOT expecting Dr Josh to say someone was sponge worthy. The bowtie makes him seem like a nice boy.
This was a more relaxed conversation than his usual interviews with people like Bart Ehrman and Alex o' Connor. He seems like a really knowledgeable and fun person.
I’m an analogy person, so I love Dr. Josh’s use of analogies.
so, you're ... analogous, are you ...?
Using the Bible as a guide to understanding how the world works is ridiculous 😂
@@GuyFawkes-gpp
There's some nuggets of wisdom in there, for those with eyes to see
it works for explaining every day, but i have a once dead already and sent back under protest behind me.
@@bignoob1790 yeah, some but not many
@@GuyFawkes-gpp
Some that even most Christians don't see
Why is it called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
@@bignoob1790 there's no such thing as good and evil.
Just one side vs another
Irving Finkel's "The Ark before Noah" is an interesting read covering the way the flood myths evolved through the different cultures, taken from all of those Cuneiform tablets that they left scattered all around Mesopotamia.
there's evidence that a glacial dam burst several thousand years ago and catastrophically flooded the mesopotamian basin. such sudden floods were fairly common as the glaciers "retreated" (an interesting euphemism for melted, eh?) 10,000-20,000 years ago
@@thehellyousay Doesn't need to be nearly that far back.
The Euphrates and Tigris are (or were) beeeg civilisation growing and sustaining rivers, like the Nile in Africa, the Danube in Europe, the Yangtze in China or the Sindhu (indus) in India.
Any major river flood during a time of low to none existent literacy could result in a lasting multi generational story that becomes more and more embellished with each passing.
This is proven to occur with oral traditions.
Memories are imperfect, storytellers embellish for dramatic emphasis.
Within a dozen generations you have gone from "it wiped out a few riverside villages" to "the gods sought to end us, almost all of mankind and the animals were lost in that great flood".
@@mnomadvfx the ruins of the city believed to have been jericho was once estimated at 10,000 years old. geological evidence show such sudden catastrophic flooding from glacial dams giving way, was still occurring as the glaciers melted back towards the poles. all i'm pointing out is the evidence. i'm not speculating on the cultural effects.
I think Genesis borrows most extensively from Atrahasis and Utnapishtim, if I recall correctly. Enuma Elish was the big influence on the primal narratives.
@@thehellyousayno, that didn’t happen in Mesopotamia, that happened in North America.
This interview works as a gentle primer to comparative mythology and textual analysis. As a former English major, it's oddly exciting to hear someone use the term "intertextuality" on youtube. Since most people aren't English or literature majors, I'm glad there are resources like this.
Also, the timing is fortuitous in that I recently read both Gilgamesh and the Descent of Inanna for the first time. These texts may sound daunting but Gilgamesh, despite being known as an "epic", is not even particularly long. The trickiest part is choosing which translation to use--well, that and the fact that there are little gaps in the story since clay tablets tend to be recovered in fragments.
Which translations do you recommend? I’ve had the Benjamin Foster one on my list, but don’t recall how I landed on that one.
@@WS-dd8ow I'm not remotely an expert on the language, so I can't vouch for accuracy. Foster's is the Norton Critical Edition, and Nortons are a go-to for literary scholars--good but dense.
I'd read a few samples on online. Check publishing dates---newer ones will (hopefully) have benefited from recent scholarship. If you look up the translator, you should be able to find their background.
I had a Priest from my Catholic church once tell me that most Old Testament stories are nothing but that, just stories, and they are meant to teach us and not to be taken literally and I completely agree.
That is bad catechesis. The bible is a complex book, that is too simplistic.
@@Jeremiah59complex how? It’s just a bunch of repackaged pagan myths.
@@Jeremiah59 nah they've always been "just stories", meant to teach morals that correspond with its age and also give a sense of national pride and a half-true "history of our people" to both the jewish tribes that made Israel and the early christians
I'd recommend having a browse of "how to read the bible for all its worth"
Catholicism doesn't stress that one needs to read the Bible. The hierarchy emphasizes the NT much more. In Mass, the first reading is never about a sadistic God.
1. The NT was started centuries after the OT. During that gap, God created something like Prosac for himself. God went from sadistic to being very compassionate.
2. Revelation, the last book of the NT is not referred to much, either. Cult faiths like Evangelism and Mormons use the OT and Revelation to scare the Hell out of their followers to keep them in line.
3. I went to 12 years of Catholic schools with one Religion class daily. I won the Religion award at HS graduation, in my 64 years, I never cracked open a Bible.
4. Maybe when the one year of Religion class, the Bible was treated like a history book.
5. The following year was devoted to all other World religions. The teacher stressed that we needed to be objective.
What an absolute delight. I am definitely eye-balling that course. Being a comic book nerd going way back, I have long come to regard ancient religious texts and their antecedents like Superhero comics. Two thousand years from now, (presumably human) archeologists might uncover my comic collection and believe Batman was a real person, otherwise why would there be SO many published works of his capers, not to mention telling and retelling Bruce Wayne's origin story with very little variation. What if Yahweh is simply the Punisher, Moses is Moon Knight and Jesus is Dr. Strange?
Regarding Ban'na as 'built' in Hebrew, in Farsi a Ban'na is a noun for a builder, often specifically a bricklayer. It's a term still used to this day
I've wasted a whole decade not learning Sumerian.
When I found put how many mythological figures died, rose 3 days later, then ascended into heaven. I was stunned to see that the bible version was basically crappy fan fiction
I think you should learn about Christianism other than through the lense of modern american evangelical fundamentalism. For example we have Popes that have literally written books on those other figures that had similar archetypes to the story of Christ... Its not some sort of arcane knowledge.
As someone that is a treasure trove of pop culture references, I appreciate so much his references to put things into perspective.
A person isn't a "THAT" ----- A person is a "Who" (or "Whom" - depending upon the verb/adverb context.)
@@manifold1476 lol Thanks. I remember being a grammar Nazi too...when I was 20. At 46 I tend to avoid getting my panties in a bunch.
yea lol my ears perked up for the "That 70's Show" reference that he threw in there haha
Ancient cultures borrowing and building on older myths is something that I can believe
Irving Finkel did a very amusing talk about how a clay tablet in the British Museum from Babylon tells the whole Noah's Ark story, predating the Old Testament. Well worth a watch.
@@gdutfulkbhh7537 Finkel is the best!
People share stories. Copyright and intellectual property are relatively recent inventions, historically speaking. Plus in ancient times, there was a lot of migrating and conquering, both of which can be causes of cultural exchange.
There is a difference between borrowing, sharing and blatant plagiarism. Christianity denies the pagan origins of these stories and presents them as it's own original ideas.
@@emilywyatt9340
Yeah the tones of Zoroastrian Ahriman are extremely audible in Christian Satan - couldn't be clearer once you have a good grasp on both.
I thought the butterfly blouse was a huge bowtie on a regular white blouse at first. I love it!
Fantastic blouse.
I love this conversation, and your butterfly blouse. I thought the thumb nail (when i blur scrolled first thing in the morning ) was Bill Nye talking to some adorable little cowboy.
Silly little guy / adorable little cowboy. Tomato / tomahto. 😋
Amazing comparisons all round
Great conversation! And it's always a treat to hear Dr. Bowen. Thanks for inviting him.
13:00 re. a "shared flood" - Something that gets overlooked here is that there is simply no physical evidence that such a flood ever occurred, and if one had occurred, the evidence would have been plentiful. We don't need to make historical/literary arguments against a "shared memory". We _know_ it didn't happen because of the hard physical evidence against it.
Sometimes people who work in the historical/literary/philosophical fields tend to lose sight of the fundamental importance of the archeological record.
Plenty of widespread regional floods, which might have seemed like "the whole world" to people unaccustomed to frequent travel.
@@DavidSmith-vr1nb Yes, that's true. Which is probably why floods appear in the myths of cultures all over the world. These are not a shared memory of one worldwide flood but rather separate memories of separate floods. And the physical evidence supports the multiple floods idea, which was my primary point. When we're discussing these stories we need to keep in mind that there is _physical evidence_ that needs to be considered as well, and that is often more definitive as evidence.
I think that at 13:13 when he mentions "sooo many problems with this idea" he's partly referring to the lack of archeological evidence. But he's sticking to his literary stuff, because that's what he's here to talk about.
a glacial lake bursting through a glacier dam hundreds of miles to the north would still wipe out whole ancient cities in the mesopotamian plains in a sudden wall of water, and lo and behold! there is evidence that exactly that happened more than once in the region, let alone around the world. go figure.
Also the fact that rivers and coastlines are surprise surprise pretty common sights for human habitation across history.
Tsunami and river flood events are so plentiful that I have witnessed several on the news in the less than 40 years I have been alive.
One of them was literally in my home country - the event was so traumatising and damaging to $billions in property that they referred to it as BIBLICAL on the news, despite the water never rising above the first story of most buildings.
So it can easily be imagined how the ancients would have embellished such stories when retelling them in antiquity.
Dr Josh and Emma. I cannot ask for more !
Bible literalists are like Constitution originalist: The text clearly states what they want it to say. And the are using their holy text as a shield against criticism.
No that’s not true. The Bible is scrap book in the sense that it’s a collection of literature, some of which has been stitched together, research documentary hypothesis for the creation of the Pentateuch. Other examples are in the book of Job, not a creative work by a single author at a single point in time. The book of Daniel goes from Hebrew into large chunks of Aramaic. Scholars say you have Isaiah one Isaiah two, Isaiah three and Isaiah four. As well as the books and letters in the so-called New Testament part of the Bible, several different copyists didn’t like the way the author of the gospel we now know, as the gospel of mark ended, so different authors in different places, added different endings as many as four. In contrast the United States Constitution was preceded by the articles of confederation and was created to form a more perfect union. We know who wrote it. We know why they wrote it we know it’s purpose. The US Constitution doesn’t come from God. It comes from the minds of men. Those men wanted stability so they made a system that wasn’t set in stone. There is a process of adding as well as removing. The words contain in the text. They didn’t want to make it easy, they wanted it to be difficult for stability reasons. They wanted good well thought out additions and not just a simple majority. To add or subtract from this, you have to get both houses of Congress 2/3 of each a president. To sign it. And then 2/3 of the states have to ratify it. So in conclusion contract law, what did the contract mean when it was entered into. That’s what judges ask when two parties are complaining that somebody didn’t honor the agreement in a contract. The US Constitution is a contract between a fictitious entity called government. It exists at the consent of the governed/the people. It’s hard. It’s supposed to be hard. You can participate convince others of your improvement ideas. Two things first governments and states have powers, people have rights. The US Constitution doesn’t give anybody anything,you have it because you exist and you’re rights pre exist the United States founding documents. The bill of rights is a restriction on government power it codifies some of the many pre-existing rights retained by the People.
@@joachimschoder there is Catholic tradition. The early church fathers. A lot of answers are found in the early church fathers, st Paul, peter and john epistles.
it is more correctly known as The Shield Of Ignorance. it's a +10 on argument defense, but a -5 on charisma, intellect, and agility.
@@thehellyousay a wise man knows that he does not know. God is real, atheist place too much value on something that's only been around for a 100 years
@@Jeremiah59demonstrate a single claim you have made. Show how a single element of Catholic tradition is evidence for God.
god floods the world: "LOOK WHAT YOU MADE ME DO TO YOU!"
🤔
@@thehellyousay
(Chad Face) Yes
It was the fallen angels, not humanity. The material reason was the genetic corruption. only noah was "perfect in his generatiions", Genesis 6.
@@Jeremiah59 What story was that sampled from?
@@Jeremiah59 the irony of your existence, let alone your commentary on this thread, is so thick i'm almost certain your thought processes have rusted shut.
@thehellyousay
no one believes this crap anymore....
God has failed....the bible is a LIE....
GOD IS LOVE.... 1 John 4.7-21
LOVE IS NOT JEALOUS.....
1 Corinthians 13.4-7
I AM A JEALOUS GOD....exodus 20.5
CONTRADICTORY NONSENSE....
Oh yeah. An entry essay for my Theology Degree was 'The Flood Epic in Religion'. It was a lot of fun!
The analogy of the oncoming train is one of the best, if not the best, description of the evangelical mindset
Thank you.
Too bad they have no evidence that there are tracks, let alone an oncoming train…
@@jursamaj i'd love it if god were real. think of the faces of all these christians when they find out they didn't make the cut ...
@@thehellyousay My hypothesis is that God is real and the rapture happened already.
None of the Christians now are thus real Christians. 😉
I 👍💯
Yes! As a former evangelical, that was the best description of it. I remember feeling that anxiety in talking to people. It was so nice to deconstruct and not feel that anymore.
Do MORE of this Emma. I wish my brain worked as well as both of you!! BUT, I totally believe in what was said here.
I love when we get amazing guests on channels like this one
Since I first encountered Digital Hammurabi a couple years ago, I have been fascinated by the depth of knowledge Josh and Meagan are willing to share with those seeking better explanations. I enjoyed every minute of this discussion.
It always occurs to me when considering how basic story themes seem to reappear in the foundational myths of successive generations, that in the ancient world there was no standard set of historical and/or scientific facts (?) that had been recorded in libraries that were accessible to the general populace. The only narratives they had to piece together what may have happened in the eras that preceded theirs were the myths about gods. epic heroes, devastating natural disasters etc. that had been handed down orally or by early script.
Today we have a historical, an archaeological and a geological timeline from which to draw understandings of the ancient world. In the days of Umma and Lagash the people who wrote down what would become the "history" of their lineage had no Encyclopedia Britanica to consult. The literate elite of the Israelites who were held captive in Mesopotamia had access to a rich tradition of origin myths and legends. Aside from the Canaanite myths from their homeland, this was what they had to work with.
the parallels from most of the bible and the actually history of mesopotamia to the genocide today in palestine is just - it’s horrifying that thousands of years have past and humans are still doing the same horrific shit in the name of a God that they claim loves everyone.
@@picklejuice2
Guilt and fear are deadly
love hurts ...
@thehellyousay
Love is patient, love is kind,
One of the main purposes of religion is to make clear the list of those one is supposed to hate.
@@njhoepner
I don't hate anyone and I'm a Christian
I'm an atheist and was raised by atheists, but this is the kind of thing that I'm really interested in when it comes to religion. I liked studying this kind of history, culture and mythology around religion when I was in university.
You should watch the channel redeemed zoomer
Read Ayn Rand.
@@dewaldt8104 He said he was interested in studying history, culture, and mythology. Not crazy youtube neo-nazis.
My catholic highschool, freshman year, had a required course in the Old Testament and it was the first time a religion teacher had ever said directly that the creation myth and a lot of the old testament was entirely made up. We spent a lot of time reading the creation myths from other religions and cultures and comparing them to the one in the Old Testament.
Love Dr. Josh & Emma!!!!❤
Regarding _"all goes back to the tower of Babel"_ - including the Inca, the Aztecs, the Polynesians, the Japanese and the original inhabitants of Australia??? 😂
They might argue that even science says that early modern humans came out of Africa, went through the Middle East, and spread to all the places you list. I'm sure they would say it was 5000 years ago, not 50,000. And that people went into Africa from the Middle East, not the other way around.
@@EinsteinsHair The Tower of Babel story is about men who try to elevate themselves to the position of God, but collapse because God makes it impossible for them to communicate. What's being described here is what brings down every hierarchy: The SNAFU Factor.
The SNAFU Factor, originating from the military acronym "Situation Normal, All Fouled Up" (or a more colorful variation), describes a state where systemic issues and miscommunications are so entrenched in an organization that they become the norm, leading to constant inefficiencies and problems. It highlights how bureaucratic inertia and the normalization of dysfunction can cause routine operations to be persistently chaotic and error-prone, despite appearing normal to those within the system.
The reason the SNAFU Factor always rises up in hierarchies is because honest communication is only possible between equals. When subordinates will be punished for delivering bad news, they tend to deliver good news. The more layers of hierarchy (the higher the Tower), the more obfuscated any problematic issues become as information rises through the hierarchy. The end result is that the head of the hierarchy is making decisions based on bad information, which results in bad decisions, which results in the Tower collapsing.
41:50 The "eye opening experience" Dr. Bowen gave those evangelical Christians would have, at certain times in the past, gotten him burnt at the stake. This is why this stuff matters.
When I was a kid and my mum was a devout Catholic, one of the many pamphlets she had accumulated was called "Spirit of Truth/Spirit of Error". In it was a short list of various religions and other Christian denominations, with reasons why they were wrong (citing specific differences to Catholic beliefs).
At the time - mostly because I was a kid born into Catholicism - this viewpoint seemed completely reasonable; we're right and everyone else is wrong.
I'm glad to say that, when I became a man, I put away childish things.
The whole web of what Hebrew mythology evolved from (including the pillager origins of Yahweh) and where they stole various story elements from is always an intriguing rabbit hole to go down.
way to mix your metaphors.
to clarify, i stand in admiration. well done, that ...
An *EXCELLENT* vid Emmush. ❤️👍🏻
As for the flood - it *obviously* preserves the old memories from the trauma of the end of the Ice Age, approximately 11,500 years ago. Having been passed only orally for hundreds of generations, it was _eventually_ written in Mesopotamia and, of course, adapted later to other cultures...
And - well, I am not familiar with the examples he gave for cultural borrowing, however, some of the Greatest Creations of our times, are those based upon earlier versions - many TNG Episodes, as well as "Charmed", "Sliders", "The Orville" and "Andromeda", are based on TOS Episodes, or - lots of times - on the very root of things: the Original "Twilight Zone" Episodes, and, of course, no one would dream calling that _"stealing"..._ on the contrary - _"If The Stars Should Appear",_ for example, is an *obvious* homage to _"For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky". "I Dream of Phoebe",_ for example, or _"This Slide of Paradise",_ even use their names to make the Historical connection clear. 🌞 And a large part of the Fun is identifying these Historical connotations and connections.
And, talking "Trek" stuff - I really Hope to see lots more of *Laura Reed?* 😍😍
Right? Cultural borrowing is great when you get the references. It serves as shorthand to tell us about events, characters, etc.
It's awesome you're posting more often. You're my favorite commentary to watch on the tube. Keep up the awesome stuff!
As a child who believed in Jesus I was very upset with the flood story. If people were evil; why kill all the animals? Why kill all the trees? Why kill babies?
Because crime syndicates need to make gruesome examples to entrap their victims in their protection money extortion fraud
But of course. The Noah story is from a Mesopotamian legend. Instead of god warning a man to build a boat it was these supernatural beings that felt they needed to save mankind and went against gods wishes from starting over. More detail in the 1st book of Enoch.
@SonsOfLorgar very well said. For a small fee of 10% you can get protection
@@jordanmapfumo9359The God Mafia
The 10 plagues of Egypt made no sense either. The Egyptian people were punished by God and suffered horrendously just because the Pharaoh was stubborn, and his heart was hardened that he wouldn't set the Israelites free.
And yet we read in Exodus 7:3 that it was God himself who deliberately hardened the Pharaoh's heart and made him stubborn.
So the Pharaoh was just a puppet who had no free will as the whole catastrophe unfolded in Egypt. The story is absurd and afflicted with a serious plot hole.
great conversation Emma, thx
i love love love your interview videos like these. i hardly have the means to dedicate to the full courses and books, usually, but these are so informative and point me right towards resources if i want them. thank you!
The Umma story made me think of the way Putin is gaslighting the Russians, and the world, as to why he had to invade Ukraine. “They are wicked, I had no choice but to invade them.”
Agree -- core doctrine of *_Russkiy-mir_* which is itself part of the *_Holy Rus'_* dogma of Putin's quasi-Christian entity, the Russian Orthodox Church.
You do know that the Ukrainian Nazis were committing an ethnic cleansing in the Don Bass the Don ask and Crimea
You probably think NATO is a defensive organization
@@ComradeBeer you know that's a factual lie and that the only ones deliberately murdering civilians in Donbas was Girkins "little green med" of unmarked Muskovite troops that led the 2013/2014 first stage of the Muskovite invasion. He said it himself at the public ceremony wher Putin gave him a medal for his warcrimes!
@@ComradeBeer I must have missed all of those news stories about NATO invading other countries unprovoked and killing thousands of people just to restore the territory of their beloved motherland.
I read Gilgamesh when I was in college and was surprised to see that there was another great flood story. By that time I had already deconverted but it was still interesting to see that the Bible isn't the only text that tells a story of a great flood.
What a lovely discussion, Dr Bowen is a treat ☺
You made my Saturday! I've been looking for more... diplomatic ways to make this point.
This is SUCH a great discussion and watch Emma! Dr Josh is so well spoken and had so many great analogies to aid his concepts and honestly, I was just blown away. Your questions were also very well thought out and the pacing was great. Would love love love to see you have him on again for similar topics
thank you so much for hosting this discussion... i haven't heard this sort of dialogue for decades
Rainbow Baphy and I are loving this video! I LOVE his books, too!
31:17 - and it’s not even that one person’s interpretation most of the time; it’s their interpretation of what someone else’s interpretation of what another person decided was yet another person’s interpretation is. (And that before we factor in translations, editing, etc into this chain).
Loved this convo. Thanks, Emma 😊
thank you Emma for bringing such a fascinating guest on board!
Really appreciated this interview. Highly recommended his books
Having both Josh and Emma in the same video is an unexpected but welcome convergence of my TH-cam viewing habits.
Omg I had been looking for a good resource covering this because I can’t find where I first read up on this topic, and up pops this video! THANK YOU!
This was a great intro do the subject! It's what we learned in late antiquity classes at the university. It was fascinating. I'm so glad people are showing interest in these themes. What I don't understand is the apologetics.
Enjoyed this interview very much. ☺
Great show. I love dr josh Bowen ! He has TH-cam lessons on how to read Sumerian!
Fantastic interview, and very eye opening. Thank you, Emma.
Josh Bowen is an excellent scholar. Thanks Emma!
The old Sumerian + Babylonian legends weren't STOLEN; their copyrights had expired + they'd entered the public domain by the time the Old Testament was written + they were up for grabs. Too bad Ye Odysseys of Steamboat Willie never made it into the Bible.
*ahem* that would the noah rewrite. producers always get the final word ...
Your visual reads well on the camera. I dig it. The knowledge and personally is the winner.
great conversation, thank you!
'Goddamnit Connla..' perfect ending for this video..
There is an individual at my work that I have conversations/debates about different items in the Bible. One item they will NEVER drop is that they say all rules we have today about not killing/harming others and how we should treat others is from the Bible. They make it out to be that no one would have ever figured that it's wrong to harm others if it wasn't in the commandments first....WoW.
They conveniently omit the misogyny, ownership, and retribution aspects of many "commandment."
I guess they're not interested in all the killing and r*ping God commands in the Bible then.
Exodus 32:27-29, in which Moses ignores the bit about not killing because a bunch of people decided to worship a golden calf.
I always enjoy conversations with Dr. Josh Bowen. This lecture series sounds fascinating. I'm definitely going to check it out.
I recall a philosophy class in early college where we touched on the similarities to Jesus and other religious figures. At the time I had already considered myself non religious, but those kinds of studies very quickly made any belief in christianity plummet.
And he does a pretty good impression of kent hovind.
its fan fiction. Not borrowed, but fan fiction. they took a story, changed it to their needs but it all FICTION always was.
Thank you Emma, and Dr. Bowen for doing this. It was wonderful, and just what I needed this afternoon ❤
Excellent interview! Going to check out Dr. Josh.
In an hour you pulled nearly 2,000 viewers. I love your channel, but this is freaking amazing!!
"pulled" might not be the best word choice lmao
@@mikey-wl2jt drew? attracted?
seduced ...?
@@thehellyousay 🤣
@@thehellyousay Enticed? Inspired? Entranced? Beguiled? Charmed? Lured? Endeared?
I like "lured"
Dr. Josh knows what's up. Bowties are cool.
Great video. I think Emma and her guest gave a great very understandable presentation
Loved this interview. :-) I was brought up in a Unitarian Church in the North of England in the mid-60s, where the minister was a woman with a degree in ecology, and the first thing we did at Sunday School was readings from a book called (I think) Beginnings, which had a chapter on each of a great number of creation myths from the world's religions. It was a very small Sunday School, and I remember a couple of "Nativity Plays", in one of which I played Joseph, whose wife was giving birth in someone's garage because we were refugees, and another in which I played the Egyptian pharaoh Akhenaten, who was apparently the first known person to set up a religion to a monotheistic god. It never made me believe in any sort of god, but did leave me with a great fascination with comparative religion. Also, being nice to other people, no matter who they were, was pretty central...
Holy shit i can't believe i wasn't subscribed to emma, I've been watching her stuff for months!
I like the term "borrowed" more than "stolen", but it's still not great - these traditions were no less native to the authors of the Bible than they were to ancient Mesopotamians.
Zeitgeist part 1 really opened my eyes. Made me think about exactly what the topic of this video is discussing
Fantastic conversation. More along this vein please.
Thank you, thank you. I find that the older I get, the shorter my attention span gets. This was perfect.
Great flood: let's not forget that the end of glacial era led to a worldwide raise of sea level (separating England from the continent, among other effects).Humans were present during that period of changes. It seems possible that the memory of the sea rise led to the myth of a single flood: a simplification of history easier to memorize and understand, when the actual cause of the sea rise could not be understood.
Another aspect is also that what we call myths today was held as historical facrs then. So the Bible was explaining the accepted history into a new light, more conform to the Jewish faith.
An historian writing a book on, say, ww2, has not necessarily plagiarized previous books on the same topic.
There are reasons to doubt a single and sudden flood, and to highlights the Bible as part of a much more ancient tradition, rather that a litteral record of truth.
Is that Emma crushing on Dr Josh?? So entertaining and educational, many thanks.
What a terrific, articulate presence this scholar is; so wonderful to have him on Team Counter-Apologetics. Thank you for lending him your platform, Emma. You just added a new subscriber!
It is never too late to learn things
We LOVE Josh. 🤗🤗🤗💜💜💜
Really nice conversation! Interesting and informative.
That was fascinating. Stumbled upon it and was quickly hooked.
Great content and shirt.
Ummm... Anyone go, "Well the Flood was YOUR fault!" sounds kinda bad?
OMG OMG, I finally got my baphy plushie had given up ever getting one. It's awesome!!! 💕 Emma
Dr Josh has a great mind. Its a pleasure to listen to him.
Yay Josh Bowen.