Good start, but may i suggest changing the hammerhead into a Bengal, and then we can change the polaris to a Bengal too to balance the side. And those redeemers and vanguard we can switch with some Bangels. And then those hornets and that starfarer, lets just go ahead and Bengal those spots.
Lol that's just a Bengal fleet then >.< I'll need a lot more views & subscribers before I can spring for a pair of those bad boys... unless you got a connection
I've been trying to find fleet theory crafting videos for AGES, been doing it on my own with some pals but you should absolutely keep this up, I love the visuals and your attention to detail with every ship, would love to see more of this 🙏
you should check out McBadgers from DGP (Drinkers with Gaming Problems). He's beginning to focus on this, his next fleet builder video will be focused on a lawless system outpost building fleet.
@@ForgeCoreGaming There are to varying amounts, check out McBadgers from DGP, Drinkers with Gaming Problems, and ex-naval officer from the royal navy. He also involves his audience to get some of their ideas for a theme. the next video hes making with this will be themed around lawless system outpost building fleet.
I would like to point out - I'm overwhelmed by the traction this channel has gotten so far. It is noticed & greatly appreciated 🙏. I would also like you to know that I don't plan on stopping. I'm a solo operation and these videos take anywhere from 7-10 hours each to produce (it doesn't make sense to me either). With that said, I'll be doing my best to put out 3 long form videos a week for the time being, as I do have a full time job in addition to this. I hope you enjoy the video!
if I were you I'd do one video a week on weekends if you're shooting for quality. You said it, this video took you 10h to make. Don't set goals too high in the start. In addition, you can make videos in advance, so that if you're ill or whatever, you will always have a stockpile of videos to post once a week. I would suggest you try to keep ships to scale in your videos. Try to have a folder with 2D, scaled ships. That way you don't have to start over from scratch for each videos.
I'm pretty much in the same spot in terms of making my videos as well. It certainly doesn't help to the fact that I decided to not only make my videos like regularly but also compose and produce own made music material as well to go along! :D But I don't care if it takes ages to make them as long as I love doing it and that's fine. To me it's not a job and I like it that way because then expectations only stretches as far as I aim. Keep at it! You're doing as great job and you got me subscribing from not just this alias but also my other YT alias as well :)
I love that you create good content while being both well-spoken and well-informed without sounding annoyingly pompous like Morphologis. You sir, have just earned another subscriber.
Some interesting options would be a retaliator, hurricane, and a mantis… unsure which ships you’d swap out for those, but they each definitely have a high use case in this fleet.
See, I considered a Tally.. plus adding a Mantis for when we're the aggressors. I don't think a replacement would be necessary. Would you be ok adding an Eclipse instead of a Hurricane?
@ i do like the idea of having smaller torps that are still one-hit kills on medium ships, things that say an enemy hammerhead or redeemer can’t ignore
The Polaris can hold its own against ANYTHING in the verse OR the Polaris can simply see the enemy first & flee/circle them outside of the enemies radar capabilities. So in other words, extra ships are pizzazz 🎉 mantis, eclipse/tally, any industrial ships or even some supporting gunships/drop ships are all just cherries on top for the Polaris & their 2 to 4 fighters attached to it! That's why I love it so damn much. She's a mini mobile base for us smaller 20-25 groups!
well laid out, thank you for your analysis and apologies for anyone harshing you... many of them forget its a game to be enjoyed and not another full time job.
I appreciate the encouragement, and it is nothing to worry about! The internet is a big place full of people dying to express their opinions. The response on this video has been overwhelmingly positive in my opinion & I don't plan to stop making these types of videos. Thank you for watching + the comment. I hope I earned your sub!
Really cool ideas, only changes I would make is to downsize the Redeemer to something that can fit inside the Polaris' hanger. All small ships in the fleet should be repairable within the fleet.
If we are to focus on the Polaris being the spear. I would drop the ship in the middle and just bring the hammerhead behind. As you noted, the redeemer has been nerfed. Instead I would rather focus on the spear and add two constellation andromedas to flank just behind the Polaris. I would even consider to retaliators in place of the constellation andromedas. Ask for two ships in tow behind the hammerhead. I would probably suggest a couple of Aries infernals or ions. And a complimentary of four Furies that could most likely be docked inside of the Polaris simultaneously. Now my math might be a little off but let me see. Polaris 7 Hammerhead. 7 Aries. X2. 2 Murai Fury. x4. 4 Andromeda X2. 4 w/snub Total man crew. 24 You might be right on the F7A's , but I'm just considering housing I'm inside the Polaris for transport. You might not always need those snub fighters. And you always have the availability of the snub fighters from the constellation Andromedas I'm not sure how far that turret Gunner can fire from underneath the nose of the Polaris. But it should definitely be a long distance cannon. Just my opinion.
You've forgot the rear defensive gun-turret of the Polaris, located bellow the main engines. That lead to a crew of 9 if you want a pilot, all turrets crewed and one engineer, or 8 if 1 or 2 gunners take care of the engineering in times of needs. Also, not sure the Vanguards Harbinger are the best options for the role, maybe more somme Gladiators or Retaliators ? And in a more distant future: A Perseus, to have real additional attack gun power. Plus, i thing a group with several fighters will need a serious option for repairing/rearming and fueling them, maybe a Crucible, or more realistically a Liberator, an Idriss or a Kraken. OK the Polaris will be able to host a fighter or two but not sure if it will be able to repair/rearm/refuel them.
I'd want to consider using rsi scorpious antares fighters to add some emp options to help take out midsize vessels, potentially some interdiction capabilities would also make the fleet more effective. Perhaps they could be stored in the Polaris hangar bay and then deployed when prudent
Great Video, would love to see more fleet videos like this. I haven't seen any other content creators doing this and it is cool and fun topic to look at and think about.
Great vid. Very similar to how I would do it. I have a small militia fleet that I'm putting together with the Polaris as the flag ship and an Anvil Liberator as second in command with my Drake Corsair pitching in whenever it needs to and every brings what the have because its a militia, but with a minimum of four fighters. Really shaping up like the Rebels of Star Wars. If money was no object and the servers worked the way the should consistently: RSI Polaris flagship, 2 or more Liberators (Fighter wings of Anvil Arrows, RSI Scorpius's with 6 Mirai Fury's bunched together on the flight deck,) Aegis Retaliators fitted as bombers and gunships like the Corsair and smaller ships for fire support. All of it protected by a permanent roving squadron of F7 Hornets.
I see a few holes in there no interceptor fighters..ghost, eclipse and retaliator will eat that fleet alive regardless of how organized you are there. Shard or no shard mesh or no mesh that fleet would leave that sector with only 1/4 of your fleet intact
Respectfully - I'd disagree. It isn't hard for gunners to shoot down torps and missiles coming in. And with the amount of turret gunners in this setup, it wouldn't be much of an issue. But who knows - things could happen.
@ForgeCoreGaming yea but have you ever been shot at by more than 1 retaliator, eclipse and ghost? We tested this and I can tell you with confidence you ain't shooting down those torps from2 of each..don't care how skilled your team is
@@emperor_pewpew2903 I am still listening to the video while commenting, perhaps this will bite me in the ass 😅 Are you guys factoring in radars? As I mentioned in another comment, the Polaris's radar (at this stage of the game) is quite literally unmatched. Unless it is another Polaris.... I'm going to see whateverrrrrrr it is waayyyyyy before it sees me. Eclipse, tally, HH, ghost, it doesn't matter. It's a capital class radar. It's a fucking submarine for space 😫 it's literally meant to see you & out maneuver you to determine if it's up for the fight, or to flee/wait.
@jrzgcwrocks nah you're fine it's a discussion. But regardless of radar there has to be balance and the ghost, eclipse have a very small cross section stealth torps are going to ruin people's day
Fascinating theory crafting. I hope to eventually fly a light fighter in support of a fleet like this. Agree that I would like to see a stable server meshing environment a priority over features. I expect it will be a gradual process though, but hopefully we get there.
Another my point is about multicrew ships current fighting capabilities. Right now at distance 2km any projectile of any gun(except strifedriver) will take 1-2sec to reach target, if target straferoll randomly it makes PiP targeting system utterly useles. PiP just can't predict where target will be in next 2sec, it can't see future. Concidering also the spread - distance reducts damage to fast maneuvering targets like light/medium fighters at such distances literally to 0. Fighters normally have means to shorten that distance, like twofold difference between forward and backpedal boost. Heavy multicrew ships can't compete with fighters in that, for instance HH forward boost speed is 320m/s, while F7A backpedal boost is 280m/s. So few fighters can keep 2km distance from HH or Polaris forever, reducing incoming damage for themself to 0 while still making low but steady DPS to slow heavy ships. Now add to this new stealth components, which makes almost any fighter able to keep radar signature bellow 1500m while having fully powered weapons with fire distance 2600m. Against proper strategy cap ships are utterly defenseless right now. Unless CIG again changes gameplay significantly for instance by introducing multicrew ships armour and reducing damage from fighters to near zero.
This is good work, and so I subbed in. A point about the Polaris' midline turrets; the way they are installed on the flanks of the ship mean they can orient towards the rear as far as the line between the turret and (top down) the stabilizing fins. That gives somewhere near 320 degrees of weapons coverage.
@@ForgeCoreGaming I suppose we should think of the Polaris more as a mini destroyer-class vessel instead of a standard Corvette. Corvettes typically are, certainly were, light escorts and patrol ships, lightly armed though fast. This thing is a beast of offensive power due to those torpedoes. Light armor with strong shields says Destroyer class to me. In a very pretty package. For the top down fleet diagram, I'd move the Hammerhead to the front and push the other two back. I'd want my anti-fighter capabilities up front, if there's a "merge" of fighters, let that ship draw the snubs off, before the big P drops a brace or two of torps at any opposing capital ships using your own fighters to cover the launch and the torps themselves if possible.
Every time someone brings up these fleet battles they do so with PVP in mind like that is the only focus for cap ships. Which I think is setting people up for dashed expectations. The majority of these types of battles will not be PVP and they will be instanced PVE missions or server wide events. OR instanced PVP battles for orgs a la arena commander. AI blades will be implemented because you will not have people teaming up with this many people regularly. Crew requirements will have to be dialed back - AI blades will help with this. Organizing 20-40 people play sessions in conjunction with others that have done the same on the daily hoping to get into a fight will be very far and few in between.
So you're saying there's a chance... lol jk.. no but seriously - I'm aware of the issues in this type of thinking, but I think it prudent to explore the thought processes anyways. Its all just theory crafting.. until it isn't.
@@ForgeCoreGaming I'm with you on that. I just think a lot of work goes into this sort of theory crafting and while it is fun, it's a major reason the community feels the way it does now. MM hate, issues with changes, etc. Because it hasn't aligned with these sort of expectations. Now, I've heard CIG say they do want large space battles, but they have never actually outlined how they plan for this to work on a large scale. Other than recently with instancing or dynamic meshing. So I just hope folks are keeping that in mind when they go through tons of work theory crafting. The networking with 1000 players will struggle to no end if there are open world fleet battles. Even with dynamic server meshing this will be challenging. An instance would be much more performant and a easy to accept trade off IMO rather than forcing that sort of engagement on servers that are hosting the open world. I'm with you though.. we can hope. But I am not going to hold my breath on that.
I think one or two Retaliator ships would fit quite nicely aswell. They come with additional heavy torpedoes to bait out defensive measures for the S10 torps of the polaris and the Tali has quite some turrets to fight of small vessles aswell. I also think that the F7A isnt the best fit for the fighter choice. The reason being: all other ships in your example are capable of long range engagements. The F7A isnt. So what dog fighter is? The Banu Defender. Sure its not as good as the F7A by any means, but its still a dogfighter and the only one that can travel long distance without the need for frequent stops to refuel.
So this was with docking inside the Polaris in mind + refueling from the starfarer. I get your point though, and it might even be better just to run 5 furies that can all ride inside the Polaris.
You're better off focusing on mission rolls. A polaris is fast and hits hard. Its perfect for hit and runs, or giving bigger aggressors some pause on if they really want to engage or not. The best thing to cover the weak spots of the Polaris would be things that are fast and agile. And help augment or bolster its mission roll. So a Polaris with say a Gladiator in its hangar, or a supriority fighter, and some vangaurds for escort. You would also need something that can give polaris awareness beyond its own sensors. Something that can tell where the polaris where it should be and where it shouldnt be. So something like the MSR, or the drake ship for gathering recon
I get where you're coming from. But my perspective & motivation for playing Star Citizen is that I get to create the type of gaming environment I want. So the only lim-fac is finding people that also want that same kind of gameplay. My money is on the idea that there are plenty of people who would like to play SC this way.
A lot of conjunctures, but i would have way more small ships of many types. Mantis, Avenger titans, C8X, C8R, Vulture, Prospector,ext, to spy around the system, and not just around the actual fleet. Plus a Carack/Odisee/whathever as secondary spawn point. A C2/B2/A2 that can carry and host those small ships at the same time than the Polaris and Carack. That is since, we dont have the Liberator, the Cracken, the Crucible, Vulcan... So we need to repair by hand, at a station, or respawn the ship... Edit: Also, if possible i would have 1 or more decoy fleet of big shielded ships, manned with a skeleton crew, to lure pirates and other fleets. So that the main fleet would attain and complete the objective, while the decoy get the aggro in the system. With over 1000 players in the system, its bound to be chaotic, so you bait others players, misdirect them, and control the chaos yourself.
Based on what we currently have ... I would also suggest adding a Stealth fighter / bomber as scout / sniper. And perhaps a Quantum Dampener like a Mantis. Should deny other players from jumping in directly to you, and targets from jumping out. Once we get the larger ships, I think the central ship would be an Idris / Javelin. And we will need more people to fill those ships + the Perseus ;)
Due to speed of torpedoes, I suggest pair it with a missile boat like Firebird... or shrike to keep the point defense of target busy. That way torpedoes don't get targeted.
My fleet (I included one concept b/c I couldn't resist) Flagship: Polaris (8 crew; I think you forgot the torp loader on the lower deck) Serves as the spear of the fleet, dishing out damage then letting the support ships do most of the second round of fighting Large support ships: Hammerhead (7 crew) mostly to defend the next ship against fighters. Perseus (3 crew) to brawl and take damage for the polaris, brawling with the capitals to give the polaris time to load a second round of torpedoes. Bombers: 3 Harbingers (6 crew) Bombers as a 3rd wave of attack after the enemy capital ship shields are down Heavy Fighters: 3 Ares Ion (3 crew) To inflict damage upon the enemy L and Capital ships and to serve as a distraction Fighters: 2 F8Cs (2 crew) 3 F7C MKII (3 crew) Distract and intercept enemy fighters Total crew requirement: 32 Crew Members I'd like to join your org and discord, if you have one. I'd like to see what y'all are all about
So recent speculation and videos suggest that the torp loader is automated now. And sure thing! Here's my org link: robertsspaceindustries.com/orgs/FORGECORE
i would swap the positions of the redeemers and vanguards, the redeemers being close to the rear of the polaris provide the needed turret coverage for it's rear, and the vanguards are mostly forward facing weapons which is the weakness of the hammerhead
6:54 The hammerhead is less of a capital and more of a support vessel. The size of its armaments suggest antifighter screening. As such, I expect the hammerhead to provide that screen and have the velocity and maneuverability to provide that screen for a Polaris in this scenario, and to do so in a broadside fashion once it is in ‘formation’ with the Polaris. We shall see how this actually plays out once the fleet game is actually progressed beyond ship hp pools and current balancing for the dogfighting meta.
@ I was more speaking to the maneuverability of the Polaris vs the other ships in the fleet so far at that timestamp. I see where you went from there and I think this is a solid fleet setup, although I might replace the vanguards with Scorpius Antares (denial of escape) and use this as a capital ship clean up fleet.
I really enjoyed this video, even though my choice would be a bit different. However I haven’t thought on that more deeply. But one thing I would like to point out which I maybe have missed in the comments as well. This looks good on a plane surface but not in space. My idea was always to at least put some more support vessels including fighters on top and bottom of that formation. Maybe even those on the bottom to be upside down. I expect maneuvers from all sides, which means I need probably more thrust away from the main fleet. But as you said, this is already almost half the player amount possible per server as of now. At least at a playable level and state of the PU. Thanks for the video!
I'd replace the redeemers with Starlancer TACs, and the harbingers with 2x Perseus and the side hornets with the harbingers, and the Idris would be a good fit for the center ship, it can carry the hornets. You could still include the fuel ship just behind the Idris if the actual patrol is going to be long enough to require it. And the Fleet would be more viable to field once they get Blades working to AI crew most of the turrets so you might just need 2 players per cap, one to pilot one for engineering, maybe 2 for engineering on the Polaris, 3 for engineering on the Idris. Bringing my altered list to include more capitals but less crew closer to 25ish oh and if by some chance it fits cramming an Apollo medivac in the Polaris Hangar would be ideal. So you have access to more med beds.
An interesting idea too would be that of a full torpedo unit, with 3 eclipse, two retaliators, a polaris, and 4 firebirds to keep enemy fighters occupied. This could overwhelm pds defenses on enemy capitals and guarantee hits
Good question in your video as to what you could use it against. Id say an event like Xenothreat against the Idris, but those battle temd to wind up becoming either circle strafe fests or jousting matches for the larger ships. The fleet as proposed is also in question. What's the combat role for it? If it's general patrolling it's vastly complicated. If it is for active cap ship combat I'd never bring along a Starfarer. It's too fragile for active combat ops. Also it's too slow to keep up with the hit and run tactics that the Polaris is supposed to do, thereby killing the reason for the fleet in the first place. In addition for the crew of the Polaris itself you may be missing the spot for the torp officer. I don't think they'll be pilot controlled.
I do love the theory you operate on here, and it will be quite fun to see someone actually form a fleet. You did miss the remote turret on the ventral side of the stern, which covers the ships rear from fighters, and even if it didn't, the Polaris carries it's own fighters to assist in protecting the ship. So I would move for a smaller fleet, ditch the Hammerhead and Starfarer, but keep the vanguards and redeemers. Still technically a fleet, still packs a punch, less unwieldly, and less crew intensive
Yeah - somebody else pointed out my blunder.. and that's on me - I swear I did research beforehand, but I did suspect that I was missing something! I like the small fighter deployment as a defense mode - which fighters would you use? A few hornets or like 10 furies? Thanks for keeping the Redeemers - they're my favorite. Hope I earned your sub!
@@ForgeCoreGaming Don't worry about missing the turret. In all honesty it doesn't appear on much documentation that I have seen, but it was there during ILW when the ship was on the floor. As for the fighters, I would probably use Hornets, as they have more offensive value than most of the light fighters. The fury swarm would also be a good idea, or even arrows, since the folding wings should mean you can cram a decent number of them in. And you make good content, so you definitely earned a sub from me
Also missed the top rear turret. Which is a miss like turret. I believe 12 or 16 S3? missiles. Everyone misses this one too. It’s the first missile turret in the game and I think a lot of people don’t understand how it’s going to effect fighters ability to operate AND it does provide the Polaris with another long range weapon against large sub capital ships that will notice 4 S3 missiles hitting it.
Excellent vid, not how I envision our little org's Polaris deployment, but well thought out. Once every backer start to really think about multi crew multi ship convoys and filling seats with warm butts, the inevitable conclusion will be - logistics wins wars.
I like the idea of scouts - though they'd have to be ok with being the first casulties - if "Hold the Line" taught us anything - its that scouts don't make it back
@@ForgeCoreGaming that’s always the risk with being the scouts. The idea is not to become decisively engaged. If you can make contact with the enemy via radar and maintain distance and maintain contact until the main fleet arrives then you have done your job as a recon element.
Theaters of War, man. They need to get that implemented so we can experience some truly badass battles. 1000-player Battlefield-like PvP game modes would be so awesome.
@@RicoZaid_ We can hope though.. we can't really predict the future of how technology advances (not with any degree of acceptable accuracy). It's difficult to imagine exponential growth.
@ForgeCoreGaming I'm a C++ and C# communication software dev since 1998. CiG Dev is by far the most advanced gaming company when it comes to Dev tech (we write tech too). Collision detection and how fast communication works (speed of light) is a problem they can't really solve. Also The constraints of $3000 gaming PCs. The more things you add (engineering etc) over larger spaces, at faster speeds = the more desync.
With the state of the game right now. 2 fury's can take down a fully crewed Hammerhead, and the Fury's will take little damage. They just sit 2 thousand meters away and work the shields down. And the gunners cannot do any damage to the Fury's. And that is the 1 thing CIG needs to fix first
My Polaris is pretty much hangar decoration. Might take it for a drive from time to time. There will be cars and bikes for racing around the XL hangar with refreshments. I might have places for waiting staff. 🤣
Lol are you saying this because you don't have friends to hang with? You can come hang with us. We're not a big org - but we're fairly consistent.. and we're growing for sure. New people are always welcome.. We just ask that you be amicable.
@@ForgeCoreGaming the problem is I’m not consistent. I’ve tried joining groups but I ended up anything between an hour to two hours waiting for people to get going and end up with half an hour of actual flight time. The 5 people I worked with IRL and talked into buying in have gone on to stable more active games and I got hooked on ‘collecting’ space ships. Having hangars has also been great fun. I guess I’m just a different sort of player. I’ve also created a whole back story and org for my Polaris, I’m not even a role player. 🤷🏻♂️ Thank you very much for your invitation. 🖖🏼
I think it would be better to have 2 hammerheads rather than 1 hammerhead and 2 redeemers. In addition you could have 2 retaliators acting as close escort for the Polaris instead of the 2 vanguards. 3 fighters and 2 fast interceptors seem reasonable as screen. Maybe one of the fighters could be a heavy fighter like a scorpius or hurricane. Overall my fleet would be 1 Polaris 1 Starfarer Gemini 2 Hammerheads 2 Retaliators 1 F8C Lightning 2 Hornet F7C 2 Arrows
i love looking into fleet design, keep it up! and ye the whole player amount thing kills me, not like getting people for my group is hard, but finding something to fight with my group can be difficult if not coordinated properly, we've planned stuff with other orgs/groups before but obviously i think we all want is more random encounters with each other rather than forced encounters is what im getting at.
My org is working on a wargame event with another friendly org shortly after the Polaris comes out. Essentially doing three scenarios, a Polaris Vs. Polaris, ambush fleet interdicting a patrolling Polaris, and a boarding action mission onto the Polaris for some fps action.
@@ForgeCoreGamingThe more the merrier, we are expecting it to be quite the logistical challenge. Also expecting it to be tough to crew both teams evenly.
@@ForgeCoreGaming Will do, my in game name is the same here. We're tenatively scheduling this for Dec 7th or 8th depending on the overall availability of the participants.
I don´t think so, Perseus has big guns for big ships to do big ship on big but I belive his canons are to cumbersome for defence againts smaler fighters/bombers, and his torpedos and gatling guns can only do as much agints for example a swarm of buccanneer.
I miss this style of optimistic theory crafting. It's just fun. But you are 100% correct. It is all about server meshing. I am not sure of how much this is needed until dynamic server meshing. 35 people? I feel a mix of 35 Retaliators and Hornets would tear this fleet formation up. Without a carrier it and limited fuel supplies I would need something to draw you to me. Fuel and income are your biggest needs & biggest weaknesess. Assuming you have fuel, you will need income. And that's how I get you to come to me. I would target from below on the Z axis from the rear because this is not naval warfare, but 3D space. I would have the fighters target your fighters first because they are my biggest threats. I would try to lure them away from escorting the ships, but I would figure such a regimented fleet would be smarter. But it's a game and players make stupid decisions. Still, my fighters would outnumber yours 3 to 1. They would make quick work of them. And would be too quick for your bigger ships. I would still figure a loss of 10 fighters, but have about 10 fighters surviving. Then I would target the Hammerhead. 10 fighters and 15 Talis firing torpedoes wouls make quick work of it. I wouldn't even bother too much on the fuel ship. No, I have one. I have attacked them to know they don't do well in a fight. My primary target would be the Polaris. Weakest in the rear, I'd attack there. If the Starfarer is a problem, I would take it out. It won't take much to blow a fuel ship. Here is where my tactics change depending on my goal. If my goal is to destroy your fleet then it may be better to board your starfarer and set the self destruct. With your fighters gone, and anti fighter ship gone then you want to pull your two remaining ships closer. Making a self destruct a good way to inflict big damage with minimum risk to my fleet. But I like the idea of taking the Polaris. With minimum crew taking out components or engines requires gunners to fix the ship. Creating big decisions to make. I would still have more ships than you have people. I can board it and attack from the inside. In reality, I would avoid a direct confrontation when possible. It may be easier to remove your income opportunities instead. This means assaulting any salvage, hauling or mining operations. Or taking all the big PvE missions away. Maybe assaulting you after a big fight? What I want to know is where is your support beyond firepower? SC 1.0 is going to more about building and crafting than fleets of ships roaming space without purpose. You need income. That means more people. And how do you combat ship swarms? What are your strategies here?
The main issue i see is if you can actually build this fleet the problem would be communication the coms would have to be like (hell let loose) or (squad) otherwise your fleet would be very ineffective
I agree - but I've done very effective comms in other games with groups larger than this. It requires Discord Canary + Discord + a rigid set of Standard Operating Procedures.
IMO - Fleet battles need a "fleet sized" asset to fight over. Until then a lot of the theory crafting we're doing around fleet battles represents a Battlefleet Gothic sort of Napoleonic warfare that I don't think is going to be the final state of fleet combat because it's not going to be very interesting long term. So the fleet battles need to feel a lot more Arma 3 and Squad than Holdfast: Nations. Probably something a kin to a large scale jump-town station in space. That said; I have a similar thought process for a fleet with my Polaris. Although I'd probably swap the HH for an M2 Herc and I hadn't thought about the Starfarer but that's a good idea. Otherwise, I'd probably go with a Terrapin, and a Connie, then 4+ Vanguards and 2 F7A Mk2. The big issue I see with your fleet design is pilot range, not fuel range. I don't think the game mechanics will/should allow for single seat fighters to go that long without stopping so you'll have a stamina issue with 7 F7A fighters trying to keep up with 3 multi-crew ships, and 2 dedicated LR fighters. Then I'd fly the F7A's in shifts out of the Polaris hangar, 1 pilot patrols and refuels while the backup rests. Then the rest of the fleet is self sufficient.
I absolutely enjoyed every minute of this and subbed and liked straight after. There are alot of lazy TH-camrs out there just showing and commenting on others please do not fall down that hole.
I refuse to even dip a toe in that hole! I'm gonna keep with the intention I set out with. Sure easy content is easy - but I'll be damned if I end up like the hundred other channels that are just regurgitating information. Thanks for the like & subscribe! See you in the verse!
I would trade in one harbinger for a gladiator that way you have one faster ship that can respond to light and medium fighters and carry a larger torp payload than the harbinger.
cool video. Saying the missile turret is defensive is fine but you didn't seem to mention ship's internal missile loadout. 16x S3 missiles is pretty substantial and that's the Polaris alone. If you're talking about a SF Gemini then there's another 9 as well. Considering the forward missile firepower you probably could eliminate most of the forward Hornets with 20-30 forward firing missiles IMO Speaking of which I personally plan to have a Freelancer mis (or if it's ever a thing Starlancer mis) since I think when they finally figure missiles out they'll be fairly powerful when used correctly and whenever it's implemented a Vanguard Sentinel to provide offensive jamming to clear the way for the torpedoes
I feel like i have had to explain my fleet a lotbutits based on expiditionary strikegroups. It has 3 sections each which can be crewed with up to 24-26 people and the shios can be mixed to provide gameolay for groups of 2 - 100 players. Polaris perseus perseus is the escort section. Liberator liberator crucible is the transportation and ground base operations. Kraken carrack carrack is the primary expeditinary group A forth section would be starfarers for supply but im outsourcing to a seperateorg.
@@ForgeCoreGaming not really big yet, really just an alliance of orgs, some want to base build and craft, some want to mine ect. My fleet is for farming reputation, items and getting a foothold on a planet before helping them ship in. basicly just want to have a way for players to earn their own ships and use my fleet as a life line and in turn they will help me crew the fleet. after we land planet side and get a base built you can get rid of a lot of the support ships. but im about ground combat right now. ground mining, exploration ect.
@@ForgeCoreGaming main thing is even with 2 people you can crew the liberators, 6 crew perseus and carracks, so on and so forth until you have everything set but there isnt any mission the fleet cant do really to farm early.
Yup! someone else mentioned that earlier. I suspected there was ONE more that I was missing, but I couldn't find the spec sheet on that. RSI is out of date & I ran out of time going through Reddit. I was already pushing 10 hours editing this video.
I would make a few changes. First, this seems like a long range formation... except for the fighters. So they would all have to be swapped out. 3 of them are going to be swapped out for Avenger Warlock fighters. They have interceptor tuning, so they are currently excellent fighters. And the EMP provides them with combat options other fighters don't share. And 2 of the fighters would be swapped out with 325a fighters. Again, interceptor tuned, and this time offering a ton of missiles to help overwhelm the defenses of other ships. But one of the major differences these ships offer is range. The previous choice of hornets lacked any accommodation for the pilots for anything beyond the shortest of trips. The can't fit in the polaris, and none of the other ships has a landing bay. Having your fighter wing die of dehydration or starvation in a couple of hours of play time isn't going to work very well. I would also consider swapping a redeemer for a Perseus depending on the mission. Going after larger ships? Then the added compliment of size 5 torps and the huge cannons provides a way to keep the pressure up on other capital and subcapital ships while aiding in the overwhelming of their defenses with torps.
@@ForgeCoreGaming @ForgeCoreGaming Sure, you can rotate them out, but which one is a bigger faff? Having the pilots just turn around in their seat to eat and drink, or having to keep rotating the ships in and out of the single bay? Which one is more likely to cause damage to a ship or slow the convoy down? That would also prevent you from loading useful snub ships into the Polaris. Things that can be used shuttle crew around the formation or assist with rescue operations after the fight.
Who knows, maybe mine will fly alongside yours in the future. Or we will find each-other opposed. Either way looking forward to this vessel. Myself, i am not really looking to pilot mine usually. More interested in engineering or command and control role doe it in most circumstances. I definitely believe the hammerhead, and/or a pair of redeemers would be valuable for defensive purposes. Starfarer to extend fleet ranges is cool, if they can start reducing fuel availability. I feel like the buff to the gladiator also makes a couple gladiators viable in the position of the vanguards. Also it may be easier to fit in the polaris for quick repair and resupply. Oh, also the rear missile turret of polaris is supposed to be automated.
I like where your head is at - my fleet design completely disregarded that as a factor. Thanks for watching! P.S. I wouldn't be opposed to an alliance of sorts - add me in game! Fenyks-VII
@ForgeCoreGaming sounds cool. Also arguably, though it is the tip of your fleet, it still will probably fill the command role better than a starfarer, as it has a holo-table for a commanding officer to use for maximum situational awareness.
The Polaris has a turret on the underbelly of the ship on the opposite side to where the rear missile turret is. If you watch any of the videos people took of the show floor model you will see that rear bottom turret as the walk beneath the ship. Also, you touched on the Hammerhead's missile payload and the Vanguard Harbinger's torpedoes, but made no mention of the 28 size 10 capital ship killing torpedoes that the Polaris has nor did you factor in the large missile armament that it has flanking the bridge of the ship.
Great video, glad you are finding success. Can tell this is high effort and very interesting take on things that I appreciate. Would you be able to add what size the weapons are to the green circles, such as 2x5 or 2x4 ?
My controversial opinion is that filing out the gaps in your fleet with more light fighters than your carriers can carry is limiting your operations to point defense or near space response. Those S1 quantum drives are going to slow the whole fleet down when it comes to traveling longer distances. Without refueling, there's a hard limit on their range, too. Not only that but the lack of living space is going to limit how long those fighters can stay spaceborne.
I like your approach, the fleet seems well balanced in terms of roles on paper. But when it comes to actual SC, my recommended fleet would be simple: 35 Eclipses. One pass and the polaris is down. Second pass you can torp all other ships 3:1, one torp is bound to hit each, and one torp is enought even for the HH. Even if you miss the fighters, you'll have 35 Eclipses vs 5-7 fighters, everything else will be dead by that point. Due to the range and volume of fire, the torpscannot be dodged or shot down by anything larger than the F7As, and so the backbone of the fleet will literally be destroyed within 20s of the engagement, leaving them no time to have any effect at all. Multicrew ships are just too weak right now, and Eclipse spam is a counter to everything but fighter spam of the same number.
CIG is too worried about multicrew being forced to notice what they actually need to make fleet combat make sense - strategic, gamechanging assets. IRL those would be thinks like carriers, AWACs, logistical ships, etc. You don't need to make 50 players do something boring or waste space in the shard to make those priority targets that force combat bottlenecks, just make them realistic enough. IMHO something like an AWACs module for the Endeavour (or obviously dedicated ships) would be easy to integrate to the intended combat loop and make things much more interesting (games like DCS already have AWACs and refueling planes often as targets and it works like a charm). Back to the polaris, I don't think it's the tip of the spear, but a skirmisher. The polaris would either be used for a deep penetration strike against key assets or a flanking attack on capital ships while they are engaging against more armored, larger ships - after all it's not meant to absorb hits, but to torp stuff fast and then evade to re-engage when another opening appear - and Star Citizen seems to be about attrition, not alpha strikes that outright kills near peer enemies. If you don't have huge targets to use those torps on 14 players would be a HUGE waste of potential, and even 7 is nothing to sneeze at. So unfortunatelly I don't feel it has much of a job before larget ships (or space destroyable space platforms) are implemented. Even if we believe server meshing will be AMAZING and this game have a healthy population, I think we can't reasonably guess good comps before they add armor and realistic damage af very least, because for now light and medium fighters are bar none the best way to put down DPS per player while actually evading devastating hits (like huge torps). So just for fun and assuming torps are needed to damage large ships, I'd probably make a fighter heavy fleet. I'd put a less valuable asset in front, probably small and agile ships to make the enemies either break formation or lose focus. Say, a wing of 11 hornet Mk 2, 5 of them as actual spear head, followed by a hammerhead they can fly around in case enemy fighters try to pursue them a bit too much. In spirit of fairness, I'll use the Starfarer too as the centerpiece. At the Starfares flanks I'd add 4 vanguard harbingers and behind, hidden by the sensor signatures of the 2 large ships, a single Mantis, because I want wins to de catastrophic losses to the enemies, not mere disengagements to regroup. That's 31 players so far... why not, a retaliator in case I need to hit something real hard in case those S5 torps from the harbingers aren't enough. IT would always call at least 2 hornets for scout if breaking formation. So, final formation: 2 hornet 2 harbingers hornet 5 hornet Mk2 -> Hammerhead -> Starfarer -> Mantis -> Retaliator 2 hornet 2 harbingers hornet
It's an interesting video, but I doubt the feasibility of these formations. The Starfarer and HH are not tough enough to swap their mobility for a tight formation.
That's why the starfarer is the anchor - all others base their relative position off of it. Only time and testing will tell.. Give me some time after server meshing drops.. I'll test it
Your problem with the starfarer is it can’t refuel its own tanks so how does it realistically change the range if it’s constantly moving with the other 2 ships?
I really do appreciate it.. and I know saying that kind of stuff sounds patronizing, but it is sincere. Thank you very much for the sub & the encouragement.
imagine 30 pilots in F7A. coordonate together, picking target after target. The HH will get down only by missiles , than the rest are doomed. Ps , ai own a Polaris, but it will be a hit and run lone wolf
With the hangar on the Polaris you can very comfortably fit 30+ Fury on it. Each Fury being the equivalent of a Hammerhead ball turret. So instead of having to add all the pilots (and once engineering comes on lines DC crews) you just keep adding to the porcupine that a Polaris Fury Carrier is. IMO
Hmm, has real sailor i see lot of flows in it. First your task forces will need to be adapted according to the mission objectifs. Is this a attack mission, defense, escort ? The tactical formation will also need to be adapted. And the composition of it too. I feel like using redeemers is purely for the sake of using mutli crew ships in this scenarios. I dont see any scenarios where i would prefer to use 4 crews stucks in a redeemers better than using a squadron of 4 medium fighters (F-7, F-8 etc.). Two redeemers of 4 crew each equate to 8 medium fighters. Also when creating a task force you need to take into account the weapons you will be facing and you need to use. For example if you face large and capital ships, like in the proposed task force you showed in the video. I would ditch the 2 redeemers, freeing 8 crew for 8 Ares and rekt the large enemy ships with this in no time (8 T4 weapons weapons vs 8 T7 weapons). If i was going to fight your task force, i would just use the 35 players to man a few Eclipse or Retaliator to destroy the Polaris (only capital ship), Maybe 4 or 5 for good measure (just one pilot to fire the torps and no extra crew). Than use the rest of the 30 pilots to man Andromeda connies and medium or light fighters. If i was cheeky i would go 15 connies and 15 fighters and i dont see any scenario where this flotilla would lose against say task force (assuming everybody know how to fight in their ships). The mission carry the means. SC players too often think in cool effect and video game. Edit : like you vids btw. I love those talks about theory crafting.
I'm curious. What is the objective of this fleet composition? What specifically are you trying to achieve? The Starfarer is great for range extension, but what is the mission? The Polaris is a warship. It needs to be geared toward that purpose. I have 3 Polaris in my personal hangar, along with several other military ships. If my org are pulling them out, they will hunt in packs! Much like the Hammerhead, the Polaris is a pack hunter! 3 Polaris + 2 Hammerheads will be ideal for a strong assault force. When it comes warfare, we come to win, not play fair lol
A very nicely put together video. I'm not on the same wavelength as you or maybe I misunderstood what the aim of this video was, but even in 4.0 this fleet is make-believe for roleplay milsim orgs only. That may sound mean (I don't mean it to) but I'll collate my thoughts on why. Lets assume that you need a Polaris for the sole purpose of killing other Polaris', that's pretty feasible (there are going to be a lot of them). Hammerhead - Awful anywhere except atmosphere, has always been awful against any opponent that doesn't mindlessly fly within effective range of the turrets. Nimbler craft, even heavy fighters can stay at maximum range and kill it whilst the hammerhead is 100% ineffective in a fight. Different story in atmo but for the majority of fights the hammerhead is a coffin for 7 dudes until gunnery changes come in that reduce the maximum range of ship weapons on smaller vessels Vanguard series - These are very poor, haven't been viable for a very long time and are in a terrible spot right now with their handling and bespoke gun not matching the size 5 hardpoint viable options for pvp. Starfarer - Okay this has uses, maybe not for anything more than a fuel truck but it is a use. The demand for a ship like this is diminished somewhat as it seems like it'll actually be a lot easier to refuel in Pyro than was previously thought (and hoped). Redeemer - I haven't fought against these since their most recent change, they could actually be quite good now since the handling changes but no experience with them yet. Feasable ship choice for rear guard I think Hornet - Yep, although I think with QT distances in Pyro, it would be a pain in the ass to field 5 of them. You would likely be stopping halfway on almost every jump to refuel them. 3 Hornets will fit quite comfortably in the Polaris hangar. A more cost-effective fleet would be (in my opinion): Polaris, 3 Hornets and 2 Redeemers and a Mantis. The Mantis for the sole reason of an anti-ram bubble, using the large QED to prevent small ships NAV-speed ramming the Polaris a-la kamikazee which will happen for sure. Crew requirements for the above suggestion would be a minimum of 17. Cutting the deadweight ships and vastly reducing the number of people needed has three major benefits for me. 1) Less people to manage, to coordinate a time to play, to get onto a server yada yada. Even running an org event of over 20 people get's a bit like herding cats. 2) More pound-for-pound effect 3) I don't know if you've done coordinated scrims against other orgs, but I have done a lot and one thing that is so difficult to manage is maintaining a plan that you make before a fight, during the fight. Contact is made and to keep it structured is nigh-on impossible at times. Continuing point 3, the structure will be so important for any fleet with a Polaris in it. The redeemers must stay in a place where they can apply effective fire on anything trying to kill the Polaris, whilst also not ending up a meal themselves. I'd be tempted to write-off the Redeemers and have something almost as effective for 1/3 of the crew requirement (Lightnings) but heyho, haven't tried them recently, they might be awesome. Hornets as well would likely have to stay close and let the Polaris do most of the heavy hitting on whatever it is you wanted to kill, for me the Hornets would be filling in where the Redeemers couldn't and running into the Polaris turrets fields of fire when they were taking damage and needed a peel, but most importantly they would be anti-Eclipse. Current stealth mechanics, that eclipse is invisible until 1km when properly fitted. The eclipse could easy get to dumbfire range on the Polaris and drop some torps in it's ass. Anyway, a thought provoking video. I do hope CIG figures out how to make a fleet such as the one suggested in your video work as well as we want it to but large, sweeping changes to the multicrew experience are needed first. Subbed, cheers!
A) I like your fleet idea a lot - simplify simplify simplify. B) My intention was to mimic modern naval fleets in HOPES that some day CIG would catch up to the vision they started for so many people. So rather than designing a fleet that fits the current build, I was future pacing with a dash of hopium that the game gets to where many of us would like it to be. C) I'll counter your point about the Hammerhead though - (since it's a loaner ship) I took it out several times during blockade runner fighting NPC's & players at the same time. Albeit - the players weren't super organized, but it was a blast to use. HOWEVER - you likely have more scrimmages under your belt than I do.. so I'll concede to your experience on the subject. D) The hornets are a big reason as to why I would bring the Starfarer as a refueling ship E) I agree the vanguards aren't very good right now. I honestly considered a Tally as they'd be even better as torpedo slingers.. The issue being they require 4 or 5 crew members - can't remember. All-in-all, thanks for replying with your fleet & thoughts. It'd be a lot more doable in the current state of the game (bugs aside).
Hmm id say The Polaris can kind off cover its own azz with a bunch of Furies coming out of it ..... But lets say that is not the case. An A2 Hercules fully crewed can probably cover it well. In my mind you either go small or big. A proper "Spear" formation for me would be: A Polaris at the front, the sides x2 Perseus with an Idris in the middle/shaft. And a HH at the rear. And a couple of F7A MK II's coming out of the Idris and 1 from Polaris to cover the blind spots.
I think the concept here is too defensive. The Polaris is a Capital ship killer. Its job is to get in fast and cripple or kill other capital ships in a fleet with the torpedo load. What it needs is a fighter escort capable of taking out, overwhelming, or distracting a ship PDS. With is shields on par with an Idris, smaller craft are not a realistic threat to the Polaris unless they can force it to stick around for a long time by preventing the torpedo hit(s). This formation to me would suite the Perseus better since it will likely have to stay in a battle for a longer time to shoot down another capital ship with his laser cannons and would need a stiff defense to do so. I would make sure the F7 are the Ghost variant and replace the Vanguards with Sabre Firebirds. Finally I would just have 2 Hammerheads above and below to cover. Move in fast, get close enough to ensure a hit from the torpedo even if lock is broken. At the same time the Firebirds can flood the skies with smaller missiles just beforehand to give their enemy PDS something else to shoot at. Fly on thru to loop around for a second pass if necessary. During that pass, the ghosts can break off and take out anything that got in the way like manned turrets, PDS points, small ships shooting the torp, etc.
Polaris has a rear gun turret underneath the ship around where the missile turret is placed, just on the underside, this is a remote control quad turret. Also there is much more significant side coverage then what youre showing. If youre going to show fireing arcs, then you really need to do this in a 3dimensional form as well, since the under side and upper side coverage is in question. The shaft of the spear would be the Idris, with it's heavier armor, and forward focused rail cannon, able to clean up and sustain after the initial attack wave. The fleet might not have much purpose in the game as it stands now, but eventually we will have "raid-like" content, fighting enemy npc fleets, and even boarding. Sadly I plan to Captain my own Polaris, otherwise I'd offer my medical expertise to yours. Good luck o/
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I've decided to just open up my Discord - join us! discord.gg/Z96Zs8fSat
Good start, but may i suggest changing the hammerhead into a Bengal, and then we can change the polaris to a Bengal too to balance the side. And those redeemers and vanguard we can switch with some Bangels. And then those hornets and that starfarer, lets just go ahead and Bengal those spots.
Lol that's just a Bengal fleet then >.< I'll need a lot more views & subscribers before I can spring for a pair of those bad boys... unless you got a connection
Maybe throw in an extra line of Bengals behind the main line just in case.
@@Tynrova congratulations, you have just been promoted
If we can craft them, why not?
for a bengal u will need idk 300+ ppl? its mobile space station
I've been trying to find fleet theory crafting videos for AGES, been doing it on my own with some pals but you should absolutely keep this up, I love the visuals and your attention to detail with every ship, would love to see more of this 🙏
I think I might be the first to do it. I was looking for similar stuff.. and as far as I could tell there aren't any SC creators doing it.
you should check out McBadgers from DGP (Drinkers with Gaming Problems).
He's beginning to focus on this, his next fleet builder video will be focused on a lawless system outpost building fleet.
@@ForgeCoreGaming There are to varying amounts, check out McBadgers from DGP, Drinkers with Gaming Problems, and ex-naval officer from the royal navy. He also involves his audience to get some of their ideas for a theme. the next video hes making with this will be themed around lawless system outpost building fleet.
I would like to point out - I'm overwhelmed by the traction this channel has gotten so far. It is noticed & greatly appreciated 🙏. I would also like you to know that I don't plan on stopping. I'm a solo operation and these videos take anywhere from 7-10 hours each to produce (it doesn't make sense to me either). With that said, I'll be doing my best to put out 3 long form videos a week for the time being, as I do have a full time job in addition to this. I hope you enjoy the video!
if I were you I'd do one video a week on weekends if you're shooting for quality.
You said it, this video took you 10h to make.
Don't set goals too high in the start. In addition, you can make videos in advance, so that if you're ill or whatever, you will always have a stockpile of videos to post once a week.
I would suggest you try to keep ships to scale in your videos. Try to have a folder with 2D, scaled ships. That way you don't have to start over from scratch for each videos.
I am quite impressed about the yt algorithm to be fair, usually only get the main sc youtubers but this was a bit refreshing.
I'm pretty much in the same spot in terms of making my videos as well. It certainly doesn't help to the fact that I decided to not only make my videos like regularly but also compose and produce own made music material as well to go along! :D
But I don't care if it takes ages to make them as long as I love doing it and that's fine. To me it's not a job and I like it that way because then expectations only stretches as far as I aim. Keep at it! You're doing as great job and you got me subscribing from not just this alias but also my other YT alias as well :)
100% what they said. You'll burn out super quick otherwise.
@@Nahoogg I'm hoping to become a main SC TH-camr!
I love that you create good content while being both well-spoken and well-informed without sounding annoyingly pompous like Morphologis. You sir, have just earned another subscriber.
Well thank you! I don't think I'm of the right tax bracket to be annoying and pompous 🫠
Some interesting options would be a retaliator, hurricane, and a mantis… unsure which ships you’d swap out for those, but they each definitely have a high use case in this fleet.
See, I considered a Tally.. plus adding a Mantis for when we're the aggressors. I don't think a replacement would be necessary. Would you be ok adding an Eclipse instead of a Hurricane?
@ i do like the idea of having smaller torps that are still one-hit kills on medium ships, things that say an enemy hammerhead or redeemer can’t ignore
The Polaris can hold its own against ANYTHING in the verse OR the Polaris can simply see the enemy first & flee/circle them outside of the enemies radar capabilities.
So in other words, extra ships are pizzazz 🎉 mantis, eclipse/tally, any industrial ships or even some supporting gunships/drop ships are all just cherries on top for the Polaris & their 2 to 4 fighters attached to it! That's why I love it so damn much. She's a mini mobile base for us smaller 20-25 groups!
well laid out, thank you for your analysis and apologies for anyone harshing you... many of them forget its a game to be enjoyed and not another full time job.
I appreciate the encouragement, and it is nothing to worry about! The internet is a big place full of people dying to express their opinions. The response on this video has been overwhelmingly positive in my opinion & I don't plan to stop making these types of videos. Thank you for watching + the comment. I hope I earned your sub!
Really cool ideas, only changes I would make is to downsize the Redeemer to something that can fit inside the Polaris' hanger. All small ships in the fleet should be repairable within the fleet.
If we are to focus on the Polaris being the spear. I would drop the ship in the middle and just bring the hammerhead behind. As you noted, the redeemer has been nerfed. Instead I would rather focus on the spear and add two constellation andromedas to flank just behind the Polaris. I would even consider to retaliators in place of the constellation andromedas. Ask for two ships in tow behind the hammerhead. I would probably suggest a couple of Aries infernals or ions. And a complimentary of four Furies that could most likely be docked inside of the Polaris simultaneously.
Now my math might be a little off but let me see.
Polaris 7
Hammerhead. 7
Aries. X2. 2
Murai Fury. x4. 4
Andromeda X2. 4 w/snub
Total man crew. 24
You might be right on the F7A's , but I'm just considering housing I'm inside the Polaris for transport. You might not always need those snub fighters. And you always have the availability of the snub fighters from the constellation Andromedas
I'm not sure how far that turret Gunner can fire from underneath the nose of the Polaris. But it should definitely be a long distance cannon. Just my opinion.
I love it
Very interesting thought about the weapon angles...
Just imagine a cutless (or hopefully redeemer?) start from the ship as soon some fighters appear 😀
Great point on server meshing. Couldnt say it better myself, i look forward to see what your ideas as 4.0 relseases
Stay along for the ride! I'm spending a good deal of time on video ideation, but some unexpected topics will come up.
can wait to be able to board, commandeer and appropriate these in game.
I'd say maybe swapping the Redeemers for Retaliators. They carry size 9 torps to assist with bigger stuff and have 5 size 3 dual turrets for coverage
I really, appreciate this topic.
I really appreciate the encouragement
You've forgot the rear defensive gun-turret of the Polaris, located bellow the main engines.
That lead to a crew of 9 if you want a pilot, all turrets crewed and one engineer, or 8 if 1 or 2 gunners take care of the engineering in times of needs.
Also, not sure the Vanguards Harbinger are the best options for the role, maybe more somme Gladiators or Retaliators ? And in a more distant future: A Perseus, to have real additional attack gun power.
Plus, i thing a group with several fighters will need a serious option for repairing/rearming and fueling them, maybe a Crucible, or more realistically a Liberator, an Idriss or a Kraken.
OK the Polaris will be able to host a fighter or two but not sure if it will be able to repair/rearm/refuel them.
I'd want to consider using rsi scorpious antares fighters to add some emp options to help take out midsize vessels, potentially some interdiction capabilities would also make the fleet more effective. Perhaps they could be stored in the Polaris hangar bay and then deployed when prudent
I definitely considered some EMP & Interdiction capabilities - guess I have to make another video!
3:33 there is also a quad turret and the end of the polaris, on the underside
Great Video, would love to see more fleet videos like this. I haven't seen any other content creators doing this and it is cool and fun topic to look at and think about.
That's why I knew I had to make it when I wrote down my list of "Videos to Make" - hope I earned your sub!
Great vid. Very similar to how I would do it. I have a small militia fleet that I'm putting together with the Polaris as the flag ship and an Anvil Liberator as second in command with my Drake Corsair pitching in whenever it needs to and every brings what the have because its a militia, but with a minimum of four fighters. Really shaping up like the Rebels of Star Wars. If money was no object and the servers worked the way the should consistently: RSI Polaris flagship, 2 or more Liberators (Fighter wings of Anvil Arrows, RSI Scorpius's with 6 Mirai Fury's bunched together on the flight deck,) Aegis Retaliators fitted as bombers and gunships like the Corsair and smaller ships for fire support. All of it protected by a permanent roving squadron of F7 Hornets.
I love it!
I see a few holes in there no interceptor fighters..ghost, eclipse and retaliator will eat that fleet alive regardless of how organized you are there. Shard or no shard mesh or no mesh that fleet would leave that sector with only 1/4 of your fleet intact
Respectfully - I'd disagree. It isn't hard for gunners to shoot down torps and missiles coming in. And with the amount of turret gunners in this setup, it wouldn't be much of an issue. But who knows - things could happen.
@ForgeCoreGaming yea but have you ever been shot at by more than 1 retaliator, eclipse and ghost? We tested this and I can tell you with confidence you ain't shooting down those torps from2 of each..don't care how skilled your team is
@@emperor_pewpew2903 I am still listening to the video while commenting, perhaps this will bite me in the ass 😅
Are you guys factoring in radars? As I mentioned in another comment, the Polaris's radar (at this stage of the game) is quite literally unmatched.
Unless it is another Polaris.... I'm going to see whateverrrrrrr it is waayyyyyy before it sees me. Eclipse, tally, HH, ghost, it doesn't matter. It's a capital class radar. It's a fucking submarine for space 😫 it's literally meant to see you & out maneuver you to determine if it's up for the fight, or to flee/wait.
@jrzgcwrocks nah you're fine it's a discussion. But regardless of radar there has to be balance and the ghost, eclipse have a very small cross section stealth torps are going to ruin people's day
Fascinating theory crafting. I hope to eventually fly a light fighter in support of a fleet like this. Agree that I would like to see a stable server meshing environment a priority over features. I expect it will be a gradual process though, but hopefully we get there.
Thank you! I'm planning more theory crafting videos because of the response to this one... I just need to nail down the topics
Another my point is about multicrew ships current fighting capabilities. Right now at distance 2km any projectile of any gun(except strifedriver) will take 1-2sec to reach target, if target straferoll randomly it makes PiP targeting system utterly useles. PiP just can't predict where target will be in next 2sec, it can't see future. Concidering also the spread - distance reducts damage to fast maneuvering targets like light/medium fighters at such distances literally to 0. Fighters normally have means to shorten that distance, like twofold difference between forward and backpedal boost.
Heavy multicrew ships can't compete with fighters in that, for instance HH forward boost speed is 320m/s, while F7A backpedal boost is 280m/s. So few fighters can keep 2km distance from HH or Polaris forever, reducing incoming damage for themself to 0 while still making low but steady DPS to slow heavy ships. Now add to this new stealth components, which makes almost any fighter able to keep radar signature bellow 1500m while having fully powered weapons with fire distance 2600m. Against proper strategy cap ships are utterly defenseless right now.
Unless CIG again changes gameplay significantly for instance by introducing multicrew ships armour and reducing damage from fighters to near zero.
This is good work, and so I subbed in. A point about the Polaris' midline turrets; the way they are installed on the flanks of the ship mean they can orient towards the rear as far as the line between the turret and (top down) the stabilizing fins. That gives somewhere near 320 degrees of weapons coverage.
Nice! That wasn't the impression I had when I looked at them - there's just hardly any good footage of the Polaris
@@ForgeCoreGaming I suppose we should think of the Polaris more as a mini destroyer-class vessel instead of a standard Corvette. Corvettes typically are, certainly were, light escorts and patrol ships, lightly armed though fast. This thing is a beast of offensive power due to those torpedoes. Light armor with strong shields says Destroyer class to me. In a very pretty package.
For the top down fleet diagram, I'd move the Hammerhead to the front and push the other two back. I'd want my anti-fighter capabilities up front, if there's a "merge" of fighters, let that ship draw the snubs off, before the big P drops a brace or two of torps at any opposing capital ships using your own fighters to cover the launch and the torps themselves if possible.
Every time someone brings up these fleet battles they do so with PVP in mind like that is the only focus for cap ships. Which I think is setting people up for dashed expectations. The majority of these types of battles will not be PVP and they will be instanced PVE missions or server wide events. OR instanced PVP battles for orgs a la arena commander. AI blades will be implemented because you will not have people teaming up with this many people regularly. Crew requirements will have to be dialed back - AI blades will help with this. Organizing 20-40 people play sessions in conjunction with others that have done the same on the daily hoping to get into a fight will be very far and few in between.
So you're saying there's a chance... lol jk.. no but seriously - I'm aware of the issues in this type of thinking, but I think it prudent to explore the thought processes anyways. Its all just theory crafting.. until it isn't.
@@ForgeCoreGaming I'm with you on that. I just think a lot of work goes into this sort of theory crafting and while it is fun, it's a major reason the community feels the way it does now. MM hate, issues with changes, etc. Because it hasn't aligned with these sort of expectations.
Now, I've heard CIG say they do want large space battles, but they have never actually outlined how they plan for this to work on a large scale. Other than recently with instancing or dynamic meshing. So I just hope folks are keeping that in mind when they go through tons of work theory crafting.
The networking with 1000 players will struggle to no end if there are open world fleet battles. Even with dynamic server meshing this will be challenging. An instance would be much more performant and a easy to accept trade off IMO rather than forcing that sort of engagement on servers that are hosting the open world.
I'm with you though.. we can hope. But I am not going to hold my breath on that.
Can't wait to see this beast! This is going to be fun!
I think one or two Retaliator ships would fit quite nicely aswell. They come with additional heavy torpedoes to bait out defensive measures for the S10 torps of the polaris and the Tali has quite some turrets to fight of small vessles aswell.
I also think that the F7A isnt the best fit for the fighter choice. The reason being: all other ships in your example are capable of long range engagements. The F7A isnt. So what dog fighter is? The Banu Defender. Sure its not as good as the F7A by any means, but its still a dogfighter and the only one that can travel long distance without the need for frequent stops to refuel.
So this was with docking inside the Polaris in mind + refueling from the starfarer. I get your point though, and it might even be better just to run 5 furies that can all ride inside the Polaris.
My proposed fleet: a Polaris, with another Polaris backstrafing behind it.
By God.. its crazy enough to work
You're better off focusing on mission rolls. A polaris is fast and hits hard. Its perfect for hit and runs, or giving bigger aggressors some pause on if they really want to engage or not. The best thing to cover the weak spots of the Polaris would be things that are fast and agile. And help augment or bolster its mission roll. So a Polaris with say a Gladiator in its hangar, or a supriority fighter, and some vangaurds for escort. You would also need something that can give polaris awareness beyond its own sensors. Something that can tell where the polaris where it should be and where it shouldnt be. So something like the MSR, or the drake ship for gathering recon
I get where you're coming from. But my perspective & motivation for playing Star Citizen is that I get to create the type of gaming environment I want. So the only lim-fac is finding people that also want that same kind of gameplay. My money is on the idea that there are plenty of people who would like to play SC this way.
A lot of conjunctures, but i would have way more small ships of many types. Mantis, Avenger titans, C8X, C8R, Vulture, Prospector,ext, to spy around the system, and not just around the actual fleet. Plus a Carack/Odisee/whathever as secondary spawn point. A C2/B2/A2 that can carry and host those small ships at the same time than the Polaris and Carack. That is since, we dont have the Liberator, the Cracken, the Crucible, Vulcan... So we need to repair by hand, at a station, or respawn the ship...
Edit: Also, if possible i would have 1 or more decoy fleet of big shielded ships, manned with a skeleton crew, to lure pirates and other fleets. So that the main fleet would attain and complete the objective, while the decoy get the aggro in the system. With over 1000 players in the system, its bound to be chaotic, so you bait others players, misdirect them, and control the chaos yourself.
Its 100% conjecture at this point, my friend. But that's half the fun imo. Thought exercises are good to keep the juices flowin'
I would add at least one a2 behind the Polaris just to help cover any blind spots
Based on what we currently have ... I would also suggest adding a Stealth fighter / bomber as scout / sniper. And perhaps a Quantum Dampener like a Mantis. Should deny other players from jumping in directly to you, and targets from jumping out.
Once we get the larger ships, I think the central ship would be an Idris / Javelin. And we will need more people to fill those ships + the Perseus ;)
Lots of exciting things on the way!
Due to speed of torpedoes, I suggest pair it with a missile boat like Firebird... or shrike to keep the point defense of target busy. That way torpedoes don't get targeted.
I've actually been working on some strats for that lately :) Nice ideas!
@ForgeCoreGaming fast and maneuverable "stealth" and can dump all missles at once. Lolol like sand in an Idris face.
@@mbeers8611 We're likely going to be testing one of the strats out tomorrow :P
Your right. All what matters now is Server meshing.
*Stable server meshing - none of this has a point if we're having a 30k every ten minutes.
My fleet (I included one concept b/c I couldn't resist)
Flagship: Polaris (8 crew; I think you forgot the torp loader on the lower deck) Serves as the spear of the fleet, dishing out damage then letting the support ships do most of the second round of fighting
Large support ships: Hammerhead (7 crew) mostly to defend the next ship against fighters. Perseus (3 crew) to brawl and take damage for the polaris, brawling with the capitals to give the polaris time to load a second round of torpedoes.
Bombers: 3 Harbingers (6 crew) Bombers as a 3rd wave of attack after the enemy capital ship shields are down
Heavy Fighters: 3 Ares Ion (3 crew) To inflict damage upon the enemy L and Capital ships and to serve as a distraction
Fighters: 2 F8Cs (2 crew) 3 F7C MKII (3 crew) Distract and intercept enemy fighters
Total crew requirement: 32 Crew Members
I'd like to join your org and discord, if you have one. I'd like to see what y'all are all about
So recent speculation and videos suggest that the torp loader is automated now. And sure thing! Here's my org link: robertsspaceindustries.com/orgs/FORGECORE
Add me in game: Fenyks-VII
@@ForgeCoreGaming sent. Thanks for the great video!
i would swap the positions of the redeemers and vanguards, the redeemers being close to the rear of the polaris provide the needed turret coverage for it's rear, and the vanguards are mostly forward facing weapons which is the weakness of the hammerhead
I dig it - you're hired
6:54 The hammerhead is less of a capital and more of a support vessel. The size of its armaments suggest antifighter screening. As such, I expect the hammerhead to provide that screen and have the velocity and maneuverability to provide that screen for a Polaris in this scenario, and to do so in a broadside fashion once it is in ‘formation’ with the Polaris. We shall see how this actually plays out once the fleet game is actually progressed beyond ship hp pools and current balancing for the dogfighting meta.
I don't think I said the HH was a capital ship... It'll be fun to see if we can put together fleets this size in game!
@ I was more speaking to the maneuverability of the Polaris vs the other ships in the fleet so far at that timestamp. I see where you went from there and I think this is a solid fleet setup, although I might replace the vanguards with Scorpius Antares (denial of escape) and use this as a capital ship clean up fleet.
I really enjoyed this video, even though my choice would be a bit different. However I haven’t thought on that more deeply. But one thing I would like to point out which I maybe have missed in the comments as well. This looks good on a plane surface but not in space. My idea was always to at least put some more support vessels including fighters on top and bottom of that formation. Maybe even those on the bottom to be upside down. I expect maneuvers from all sides, which means I need probably more thrust away from the main fleet.
But as you said, this is already almost half the player amount possible per server as of now. At least at a playable level and state of the PU.
Thanks for the video!
Yup! I did consider that - but you hit the nail on the head with why I didn't include it. Thanks for watching and commenting!
thanks for all this fun info
I'd replace the redeemers with Starlancer TACs, and the harbingers with 2x Perseus and the side hornets with the harbingers, and the Idris would be a good fit for the center ship, it can carry the hornets. You could still include the fuel ship just behind the Idris if the actual patrol is going to be long enough to require it. And the Fleet would be more viable to field once they get Blades working to AI crew most of the turrets so you might just need 2 players per cap, one to pilot one for engineering, maybe 2 for engineering on the Polaris, 3 for engineering on the Idris. Bringing my altered list to include more capitals but less crew closer to 25ish oh and if by some chance it fits cramming an Apollo medivac in the Polaris Hangar would be ideal. So you have access to more med beds.
I don't think the Apollo would fit in there - it's more for fighters. Here's to hopin!
@ForgeCoreGaming it would be "close" assuming the apollo doesn't grow in size. But yeah I wouldn't "expect it too" 😂
An interesting idea too would be that of a full torpedo unit, with 3 eclipse, two retaliators, a polaris, and 4 firebirds to keep enemy fighters occupied. This could overwhelm pds defenses on enemy capitals and guarantee hits
Ohhhh I thought about that one too.. could you just imagine 9 torps coming at your ship? Not gonna say I'd be panicking.. but I would be
@ would definitely give a reason for escape pods to exist lol
Good question in your video as to what you could use it against. Id say an event like Xenothreat against the Idris, but those battle temd to wind up becoming either circle strafe fests or jousting matches for the larger ships.
The fleet as proposed is also in question. What's the combat role for it? If it's general patrolling it's vastly complicated. If it is for active cap ship combat I'd never bring along a Starfarer. It's too fragile for active combat ops. Also it's too slow to keep up with the hit and run tactics that the Polaris is supposed to do, thereby killing the reason for the fleet in the first place.
In addition for the crew of the Polaris itself you may be missing the spot for the torp officer. I don't think they'll be pilot controlled.
gladiator over harbinger because you can land the gladiator in the Polaris for lite rearming
I do love the theory you operate on here, and it will be quite fun to see someone actually form a fleet. You did miss the remote turret on the ventral side of the stern, which covers the ships rear from fighters, and even if it didn't, the Polaris carries it's own fighters to assist in protecting the ship. So I would move for a smaller fleet, ditch the Hammerhead and Starfarer, but keep the vanguards and redeemers. Still technically a fleet, still packs a punch, less unwieldly, and less crew intensive
Yeah - somebody else pointed out my blunder.. and that's on me - I swear I did research beforehand, but I did suspect that I was missing something!
I like the small fighter deployment as a defense mode - which fighters would you use? A few hornets or like 10 furies? Thanks for keeping the Redeemers - they're my favorite. Hope I earned your sub!
@@ForgeCoreGaming Don't worry about missing the turret. In all honesty it doesn't appear on much documentation that I have seen, but it was there during ILW when the ship was on the floor.
As for the fighters, I would probably use Hornets, as they have more offensive value than most of the light fighters. The fury swarm would also be a good idea, or even arrows, since the folding wings should mean you can cram a decent number of them in.
And you make good content, so you definitely earned a sub from me
Also missed the top rear turret. Which is a miss like turret. I believe 12 or 16 S3? missiles. Everyone misses this one too. It’s the first missile turret in the game and I think a lot of people don’t understand how it’s going to effect fighters ability to operate AND it does provide the Polaris with another long range weapon against large sub capital ships that will notice 4 S3 missiles hitting it.
@@charliemcawesome5012 no he mentioned the missile turret in the video
Excellent vid, not how I envision our little org's Polaris deployment, but well thought out. Once every backer start to really think about multi crew multi ship convoys and filling seats with warm butts, the inevitable conclusion will be - logistics wins wars.
Logistics ALWAYS wins wars (you guys are welcome to come hang out with us some time).
I like the theory crafting. Good fleet makeup. I would through some scouts out in front too (hornet trackers or similar).
I like the idea of scouts - though they'd have to be ok with being the first casulties - if "Hold the Line" taught us anything - its that scouts don't make it back
@@ForgeCoreGaming that’s always the risk with being the scouts. The idea is not to become decisively engaged. If you can make contact with the enemy via radar and maintain distance and maintain contact until the main fleet arrives then you have done your job as a recon element.
Theaters of War, man. They need to get that implemented so we can experience some truly badass battles.
1000-player Battlefield-like PvP game modes would be so awesome.
I can taste the 30k's already.. but you're right - that would be an amazing gameplay system
That Won't work, SC collision detection with a thousand people in a dense area will be too difficult to sync up.
@@RicoZaid_ We can hope though.. we can't really predict the future of how technology advances (not with any degree of acceptable accuracy). It's difficult to imagine exponential growth.
@ForgeCoreGaming I'm a C++ and C# communication software dev since 1998. CiG Dev is by far the most advanced gaming company when it comes to Dev tech (we write tech too). Collision detection and how fast communication works (speed of light) is a problem they can't really solve. Also The constraints of $3000 gaming PCs. The more things you add (engineering etc) over larger spaces, at faster speeds = the more desync.
“No plan survives first contact with the enemy” - Helmuth von Moltke
"Everybody's got a plan until they get punched in the fathe" - Mike Tyson
the polaris is about to have some serious scm and nav speed, wouldn't surprise me if it can't be outrun
With the state of the game right now. 2 fury's can take down a fully crewed Hammerhead, and the Fury's will take little damage. They just sit 2 thousand meters away and work the shields down. And the gunners cannot do any damage to the Fury's. And that is the 1 thing CIG needs to fix first
Eventually furys wont be able to pen armor, itll all work out. I trust cig
My Polaris is pretty much hangar decoration. Might take it for a drive from time to time. There will be cars and bikes for racing around the XL hangar with refreshments. I might have places for waiting staff. 🤣
Lol are you saying this because you don't have friends to hang with? You can come hang with us. We're not a big org - but we're fairly consistent.. and we're growing for sure. New people are always welcome.. We just ask that you be amicable.
@@ForgeCoreGaming the problem is I’m not consistent. I’ve tried joining groups but I ended up anything between an hour to two hours waiting for people to get going and end up with half an hour of actual flight time. The 5 people I worked with IRL and talked into buying in have gone on to stable more active games and I got hooked on ‘collecting’ space ships. Having hangars has also been great fun. I guess I’m just a different sort of player. I’ve also created a whole back story and org for my Polaris, I’m not even a role player. 🤷🏻♂️
Thank you very much for your invitation. 🖖🏼
I think it would be better to have 2 hammerheads rather than 1 hammerhead and 2 redeemers. In addition you could have 2 retaliators acting as close escort for the Polaris instead of the 2 vanguards. 3 fighters and 2 fast interceptors seem reasonable as screen. Maybe one of the fighters could be a heavy fighter like a scorpius or hurricane. Overall my fleet would be
1 Polaris
1 Starfarer Gemini
2 Hammerheads
2 Retaliators
1 F8C Lightning
2 Hornet F7C
2 Arrows
Love it!
Great work man! Keep it up, we rooting for you!
Subbed to your channel :)
@ appreciate it!
i love looking into fleet design, keep it up!
and ye the whole player amount thing kills me, not like getting people for my group is hard, but finding something to fight with my group can be difficult if not coordinated properly, we've planned stuff with other orgs/groups before but obviously i think we all want is more random encounters with each other rather than forced encounters is what im getting at.
Thanks! I'll keep at it
My org is working on a wargame event with another friendly org shortly after the Polaris comes out. Essentially doing three scenarios, a Polaris Vs. Polaris, ambush fleet interdicting a patrolling Polaris, and a boarding action mission onto the Polaris for some fps action.
Oh! Can I tag along?
@@ForgeCoreGamingThe more the merrier, we are expecting it to be quite the logistical challenge. Also expecting it to be tough to crew both teams evenly.
@@Badmofojay Add me in game: Fenyks-VII
@@ForgeCoreGaming Will do, my in game name is the same here. We're tenatively scheduling this for Dec 7th or 8th depending on the overall availability of the participants.
I see the Perseus replacing the Redeemers
gasppppp... not my Redeemer! But you might be right given that the crew requirements are just abou the same
Agreed, and they'll be vastly more survivable (At the cost of speed, they be some slowpokes, LOL).
I don´t think so, Perseus has big guns for big ships to do big ship on big but I belive his canons are to cumbersome for defence againts smaler fighters/bombers, and his torpedos and gatling guns can only do as much agints for example a swarm of buccanneer.
I miss this style of optimistic theory crafting. It's just fun. But you are 100% correct. It is all about server meshing. I am not sure of how much this is needed until dynamic server meshing. 35 people? I feel a mix of 35 Retaliators and Hornets would tear this fleet formation up.
Without a carrier it and limited fuel supplies I would need something to draw you to me. Fuel and income are your biggest needs & biggest weaknesess. Assuming you have fuel, you will need income. And that's how I get you to come to me. I would target from below on the Z axis from the rear because this is not naval warfare, but 3D space.
I would have the fighters target your fighters first because they are my biggest threats. I would try to lure them away from escorting the ships, but I would figure such a regimented fleet would be smarter. But it's a game and players make stupid decisions. Still, my fighters would outnumber yours 3 to 1. They would make quick work of them. And would be too quick for your bigger ships. I would still figure a loss of 10 fighters, but have about 10 fighters surviving.
Then I would target the Hammerhead. 10 fighters and 15 Talis firing torpedoes wouls make quick work of it. I wouldn't even bother too much on the fuel ship. No, I have one. I have attacked them to know they don't do well in a fight. My primary target would be the Polaris. Weakest in the rear, I'd attack there. If the Starfarer is a problem, I would take it out. It won't take much to blow a fuel ship.
Here is where my tactics change depending on my goal. If my goal is to destroy your fleet then it may be better to board your starfarer and set the self destruct. With your fighters gone, and anti fighter ship gone then you want to pull your two remaining ships closer. Making a self destruct a good way to inflict big damage with minimum risk to my fleet.
But I like the idea of taking the Polaris. With minimum crew taking out components or engines requires gunners to fix the ship. Creating big decisions to make. I would still have more ships than you have people. I can board it and attack from the inside.
In reality, I would avoid a direct confrontation when possible. It may be easier to remove your income opportunities instead. This means assaulting any salvage, hauling or mining operations. Or taking all the big PvE missions away. Maybe assaulting you after a big fight?
What I want to know is where is your support beyond firepower? SC 1.0 is going to more about building and crafting than fleets of ships roaming space without purpose. You need income. That means more people. And how do you combat ship swarms? What are your strategies here?
I'll be sure to avoid you in the verse! lol jk see you on the other side
The main issue i see is if you can actually build this fleet the problem would be communication the coms would have to be like (hell let loose) or (squad) otherwise your fleet would be very ineffective
I agree - but I've done very effective comms in other games with groups larger than this. It requires Discord Canary + Discord + a rigid set of Standard Operating Procedures.
IMO - Fleet battles need a "fleet sized" asset to fight over. Until then a lot of the theory crafting we're doing around fleet battles represents a Battlefleet Gothic sort of Napoleonic warfare that I don't think is going to be the final state of fleet combat because it's not going to be very interesting long term. So the fleet battles need to feel a lot more Arma 3 and Squad than Holdfast: Nations. Probably something a kin to a large scale jump-town station in space.
That said; I have a similar thought process for a fleet with my Polaris. Although I'd probably swap the HH for an M2 Herc and I hadn't thought about the Starfarer but that's a good idea. Otherwise, I'd probably go with a Terrapin, and a Connie, then 4+ Vanguards and 2 F7A Mk2. The big issue I see with your fleet design is pilot range, not fuel range. I don't think the game mechanics will/should allow for single seat fighters to go that long without stopping so you'll have a stamina issue with 7 F7A fighters trying to keep up with 3 multi-crew ships, and 2 dedicated LR fighters. Then I'd fly the F7A's in shifts out of the Polaris hangar, 1 pilot patrols and refuels while the backup rests. Then the rest of the fleet is self sufficient.
I absolutely enjoyed every minute of this and subbed and liked straight after.
There are alot of lazy TH-camrs out there just showing and commenting on others please do not fall down that hole.
I refuse to even dip a toe in that hole! I'm gonna keep with the intention I set out with. Sure easy content is easy - but I'll be damned if I end up like the hundred other channels that are just regurgitating information. Thanks for the like & subscribe! See you in the verse!
I would trade in one harbinger for a gladiator that way you have one faster ship that can respond to light and medium fighters and carry a larger torp payload than the harbinger.
cool video. Saying the missile turret is defensive is fine but you didn't seem to mention ship's internal missile loadout. 16x S3 missiles is pretty substantial and that's the Polaris alone. If you're talking about a SF Gemini then there's another 9 as well. Considering the forward missile firepower you probably could eliminate most of the forward Hornets with 20-30 forward firing missiles IMO
Speaking of which I personally plan to have a Freelancer mis (or if it's ever a thing Starlancer mis) since I think when they finally figure missiles out they'll be fairly powerful when used correctly and whenever it's implemented a Vanguard Sentinel to provide offensive jamming to clear the way for the torpedoes
I feel like i have had to explain my fleet a lotbutits based on expiditionary strikegroups.
It has 3 sections each which can be crewed with up to 24-26 people and the shios can be mixed to provide gameolay for groups of 2 - 100 players.
Polaris perseus perseus is the escort section.
Liberator liberator crucible is the transportation and ground base operations.
Kraken carrack carrack is the primary expeditinary group
A forth section would be starfarers for supply but im outsourcing to a seperateorg.
Goodness... you have a big org or somethin? I'm avoiding that convoy.
@@ForgeCoreGaming not really big yet, really just an alliance of orgs, some want to base build and craft, some want to mine ect. My fleet is for farming reputation, items and getting a foothold on a planet before helping them ship in.
basicly just want to have a way for players to earn their own ships and use my fleet as a life line and in turn they will help me crew the fleet. after we land planet side and get a base built you can get rid of a lot of the support ships.
but im about ground combat right now. ground mining, exploration ect.
@@ForgeCoreGaming main thing is even with 2 people you can crew the liberators, 6 crew perseus and carracks, so on and so forth until you have everything set but there isnt any mission the fleet cant do really to farm early.
Polaris has 7 turrets, there's one directly under the missile turret you mentioned on the bottom.
Yup! someone else mentioned that earlier. I suspected there was ONE more that I was missing, but I couldn't find the spec sheet on that. RSI is out of date & I ran out of time going through Reddit. I was already pushing 10 hours editing this video.
I would make a few changes. First, this seems like a long range formation... except for the fighters. So they would all have to be swapped out. 3 of them are going to be swapped out for Avenger Warlock fighters. They have interceptor tuning, so they are currently excellent fighters. And the EMP provides them with combat options other fighters don't share. And 2 of the fighters would be swapped out with 325a fighters. Again, interceptor tuned, and this time offering a ton of missiles to help overwhelm the defenses of other ships. But one of the major differences these ships offer is range. The previous choice of hornets lacked any accommodation for the pilots for anything beyond the shortest of trips. The can't fit in the polaris, and none of the other ships has a landing bay. Having your fighter wing die of dehydration or starvation in a couple of hours of play time isn't going to work very well. I would also consider swapping a redeemer for a Perseus depending on the mission. Going after larger ships? Then the added compliment of size 5 torps and the huge cannons provides a way to keep the pressure up on other capital and subcapital ships while aiding in the overwhelming of their defenses with torps.
To your point, you can actually fit 3 F7's in the Polaris hangar ;).
@@ForgeCoreGaming @ForgeCoreGaming Sure, you can rotate them out, but which one is a bigger faff? Having the pilots just turn around in their seat to eat and drink, or having to keep rotating the ships in and out of the single bay? Which one is more likely to cause damage to a ship or slow the convoy down? That would also prevent you from loading useful snub ships into the Polaris. Things that can be used shuttle crew around the formation or assist with rescue operations after the fight.
Who knows, maybe mine will fly alongside yours in the future. Or we will find each-other opposed. Either way looking forward to this vessel.
Myself, i am not really looking to pilot mine usually. More interested in engineering or command and control role doe it in most circumstances.
I definitely believe the hammerhead, and/or a pair of redeemers would be valuable for defensive purposes.
Starfarer to extend fleet ranges is cool, if they can start reducing fuel availability.
I feel like the buff to the gladiator also makes a couple gladiators viable in the position of the vanguards. Also it may be easier to fit in the polaris for quick repair and resupply.
Oh, also the rear missile turret of polaris is supposed to be automated.
I like where your head is at - my fleet design completely disregarded that as a factor. Thanks for watching!
P.S. I wouldn't be opposed to an alliance of sorts - add me in game! Fenyks-VII
@ForgeCoreGaming sounds cool. Also arguably, though it is the tip of your fleet, it still will probably fill the command role better than a starfarer, as it has a holo-table for a commanding officer to use for maximum situational awareness.
@@luistigerfox Oh the Polaris would still be in command - the Starfarer is just the "anchor" for a central position + broad spectrum intel
The Polaris has a turret on the underbelly of the ship on the opposite side to where the rear missile turret is. If you watch any of the videos people took of the show floor model you will see that rear bottom turret as the walk beneath the ship. Also, you touched on the Hammerhead's missile payload and the Vanguard Harbinger's torpedoes, but made no mention of the 28 size 10 capital ship killing torpedoes that the Polaris has nor did you factor in the large missile armament that it has flanking the bridge of the ship.
Great video, glad you are finding success. Can tell this is high effort and very interesting take on things that I appreciate.
Would you be able to add what size the weapons are to the green circles, such as 2x5 or 2x4 ?
I'll be sure to include those in future videos with analyses such as this
the fear id feel seeling this fleet cruise by me
Oh I'd immediately shut down power or QT away.. or... join the formation and hope they didn't notice?
ive never heard "hull" and "deck" used to indicate top and bottom. ive heard dorsal (top) and ventral (bottom) used.
My controversial opinion is that filing out the gaps in your fleet with more light fighters than your carriers can carry is limiting your operations to point defense or near space response. Those S1 quantum drives are going to slow the whole fleet down when it comes to traveling longer distances. Without refueling, there's a hard limit on their range, too. Not only that but the lack of living space is going to limit how long those fighters can stay spaceborne.
That's a big reason as to why I included the Starfarer
top notch video as always!
Thank you! As always
I like your approach, the fleet seems well balanced in terms of roles on paper. But when it comes to actual SC, my recommended fleet would be simple: 35 Eclipses. One pass and the polaris is down. Second pass you can torp all other ships 3:1, one torp is bound to hit each, and one torp is enought even for the HH. Even if you miss the fighters, you'll have 35 Eclipses vs 5-7 fighters, everything else will be dead by that point. Due to the range and volume of fire, the torpscannot be dodged or shot down by anything larger than the F7As, and so the backbone of the fleet will literally be destroyed within 20s of the engagement, leaving them no time to have any effect at all.
Multicrew ships are just too weak right now, and Eclipse spam is a counter to everything but fighter spam of the same number.
But like.. where's the fun in that?
CIG is too worried about multicrew being forced to notice what they actually need to make fleet combat make sense - strategic, gamechanging assets.
IRL those would be thinks like carriers, AWACs, logistical ships, etc. You don't need to make 50 players do something boring or waste space in the shard to make those priority targets that force combat bottlenecks, just make them realistic enough. IMHO something like an AWACs module for the Endeavour (or obviously dedicated ships) would be easy to integrate to the intended combat loop and make things much more interesting (games like DCS already have AWACs and refueling planes often as targets and it works like a charm).
Back to the polaris, I don't think it's the tip of the spear, but a skirmisher. The polaris would either be used for a deep penetration strike against key assets or a flanking attack on capital ships while they are engaging against more armored, larger ships - after all it's not meant to absorb hits, but to torp stuff fast and then evade to re-engage when another opening appear - and Star Citizen seems to be about attrition, not alpha strikes that outright kills near peer enemies. If you don't have huge targets to use those torps on 14 players would be a HUGE waste of potential, and even 7 is nothing to sneeze at. So unfortunatelly I don't feel it has much of a job before larget ships (or space destroyable space platforms) are implemented.
Even if we believe server meshing will be AMAZING and this game have a healthy population, I think we can't reasonably guess good comps before they add armor and realistic damage af very least, because for now light and medium fighters are bar none the best way to put down DPS per player while actually evading devastating hits (like huge torps).
So just for fun and assuming torps are needed to damage large ships, I'd probably make a fighter heavy fleet.
I'd put a less valuable asset in front, probably small and agile ships to make the enemies either break formation or lose focus. Say, a wing of 11 hornet Mk 2, 5 of them as actual spear head, followed by a hammerhead they can fly around in case enemy fighters try to pursue them a bit too much. In spirit of fairness, I'll use the Starfarer too as the centerpiece.
At the Starfares flanks I'd add 4 vanguard harbingers and behind, hidden by the sensor signatures of the 2 large ships, a single Mantis, because I want wins to de catastrophic losses to the enemies, not mere disengagements to regroup.
That's 31 players so far... why not, a retaliator in case I need to hit something real hard in case those S5 torps from the harbingers aren't enough. IT would always call at least 2 hornets for scout if breaking formation.
So, final formation:
2 hornet 2 harbingers hornet
5 hornet Mk2 -> Hammerhead -> Starfarer -> Mantis -> Retaliator
2 hornet 2 harbingers hornet
It's an interesting video, but I doubt the feasibility of these formations. The Starfarer and HH are not tough enough to swap their mobility for a tight formation.
That's why the starfarer is the anchor - all others base their relative position off of it. Only time and testing will tell.. Give me some time after server meshing drops.. I'll test it
Great video my guy
Thanks!
Your problem with the starfarer is it can’t refuel its own tanks so how does it realistically change the range if it’s constantly moving with the other 2 ships?
It was MOSTLY there to refuel the smaller ships - as the Polaris and HH both have pretty high QT and hydrogen stores.
Great video, +1 subscriber
Looking forward for more capital ship fleet videos !
I really do appreciate it.. and I know saying that kind of stuff sounds patronizing, but it is sincere. Thank you very much for the sub & the encouragement.
One problem, you'll also need engineering crew eventually.
Indeed - I'm glad they pushed engineering back tbh
Interesting video, I'm much more of a lone wolf in SC so I'll know what to avoid when I see it haha
imagine 30 pilots in F7A. coordonate together, picking target after target. The HH will get down only by missiles , than the rest are doomed. Ps , ai own a Polaris, but it will be a hit and run lone wolf
With the hangar on the Polaris you can very comfortably fit 30+ Fury on it. Each Fury being the equivalent of a Hammerhead ball turret. So instead of having to add all the pilots (and once engineering comes on lines DC crews) you just keep adding to the porcupine that a Polaris Fury Carrier is. IMO
It will be released. We will go wooo. We will go back to complaining.
I will not. I still enjoy this game.
@@ForgeCoreGaming Good man 👍 I own this ship btw, by mistake.
I’m happy to crew a Polaris
Add me in game: Fenyks-VII
And join my org: robertsspaceindustries.com/orgs/FORGECORE
Hmm, has real sailor i see lot of flows in it. First your task forces will need to be adapted according to the mission objectifs. Is this a attack mission, defense, escort ? The tactical formation will also need to be adapted. And the composition of it too.
I feel like using redeemers is purely for the sake of using mutli crew ships in this scenarios. I dont see any scenarios where i would prefer to use 4 crews stucks in a redeemers better than using a squadron of 4 medium fighters (F-7, F-8 etc.). Two redeemers of 4 crew each equate to 8 medium fighters.
Also when creating a task force you need to take into account the weapons you will be facing and you need to use. For example if you face large and capital ships, like in the proposed task force you showed in the video. I would ditch the 2 redeemers, freeing 8 crew for 8 Ares and rekt the large enemy ships with this in no time (8 T4 weapons weapons vs 8 T7 weapons).
If i was going to fight your task force, i would just use the 35 players to man a few Eclipse or Retaliator to destroy the Polaris (only capital ship), Maybe 4 or 5 for good measure (just one pilot to fire the torps and no extra crew). Than use the rest of the 30 pilots to man Andromeda connies and medium or light fighters. If i was cheeky i would go 15 connies and 15 fighters and i dont see any scenario where this flotilla would lose against say task force (assuming everybody know how to fight in their ships).
The mission carry the means. SC players too often think in cool effect and video game.
Edit : like you vids btw. I love those talks about theory crafting.
I'm curious. What is the objective of this fleet composition? What specifically are you trying to achieve? The Starfarer is great for range extension, but what is the mission? The Polaris is a warship. It needs to be geared toward that purpose.
I have 3 Polaris in my personal hangar, along with several other military ships. If my org are pulling them out, they will hunt in packs! Much like the Hammerhead, the Polaris is a pack hunter! 3 Polaris + 2 Hammerheads will be ideal for a strong assault force. When it comes warfare, we come to win, not play fair lol
A very nicely put together video. I'm not on the same wavelength as you or maybe I misunderstood what the aim of this video was, but even in 4.0 this fleet is make-believe for roleplay milsim orgs only. That may sound mean (I don't mean it to) but I'll collate my thoughts on why. Lets assume that you need a Polaris for the sole purpose of killing other Polaris', that's pretty feasible (there are going to be a lot of them).
Hammerhead - Awful anywhere except atmosphere, has always been awful against any opponent that doesn't mindlessly fly within effective range of the turrets. Nimbler craft, even heavy fighters can stay at maximum range and kill it whilst the hammerhead is 100% ineffective in a fight. Different story in atmo but for the majority of fights the hammerhead is a coffin for 7 dudes until gunnery changes come in that reduce the maximum range of ship weapons on smaller vessels
Vanguard series - These are very poor, haven't been viable for a very long time and are in a terrible spot right now with their handling and bespoke gun not matching the size 5 hardpoint viable options for pvp.
Starfarer - Okay this has uses, maybe not for anything more than a fuel truck but it is a use. The demand for a ship like this is diminished somewhat as it seems like it'll actually be a lot easier to refuel in Pyro than was previously thought (and hoped).
Redeemer - I haven't fought against these since their most recent change, they could actually be quite good now since the handling changes but no experience with them yet. Feasable ship choice for rear guard I think
Hornet - Yep, although I think with QT distances in Pyro, it would be a pain in the ass to field 5 of them. You would likely be stopping halfway on almost every jump to refuel them. 3 Hornets will fit quite comfortably in the Polaris hangar.
A more cost-effective fleet would be (in my opinion): Polaris, 3 Hornets and 2 Redeemers and a Mantis. The Mantis for the sole reason of an anti-ram bubble, using the large QED to prevent small ships NAV-speed ramming the Polaris a-la kamikazee which will happen for sure.
Crew requirements for the above suggestion would be a minimum of 17. Cutting the deadweight ships and vastly reducing the number of people needed has three major benefits for me.
1) Less people to manage, to coordinate a time to play, to get onto a server yada yada. Even running an org event of over 20 people get's a bit like herding cats.
2) More pound-for-pound effect
3) I don't know if you've done coordinated scrims against other orgs, but I have done a lot and one thing that is so difficult to manage is maintaining a plan that you make before a fight, during the fight. Contact is made and to keep it structured is nigh-on impossible at times.
Continuing point 3, the structure will be so important for any fleet with a Polaris in it. The redeemers must stay in a place where they can apply effective fire on anything trying to kill the Polaris, whilst also not ending up a meal themselves. I'd be tempted to write-off the Redeemers and have something almost as effective for 1/3 of the crew requirement (Lightnings) but heyho, haven't tried them recently, they might be awesome.
Hornets as well would likely have to stay close and let the Polaris do most of the heavy hitting on whatever it is you wanted to kill, for me the Hornets would be filling in where the Redeemers couldn't and running into the Polaris turrets fields of fire when they were taking damage and needed a peel, but most importantly they would be anti-Eclipse. Current stealth mechanics, that eclipse is invisible until 1km when properly fitted. The eclipse could easy get to dumbfire range on the Polaris and drop some torps in it's ass.
Anyway, a thought provoking video. I do hope CIG figures out how to make a fleet such as the one suggested in your video work as well as we want it to but large, sweeping changes to the multicrew experience are needed first.
Subbed, cheers!
A) I like your fleet idea a lot - simplify simplify simplify.
B) My intention was to mimic modern naval fleets in HOPES that some day CIG would catch up to the vision they started for so many people. So rather than designing a fleet that fits the current build, I was future pacing with a dash of hopium that the game gets to where many of us would like it to be.
C) I'll counter your point about the Hammerhead though - (since it's a loaner ship) I took it out several times during blockade runner fighting NPC's & players at the same time. Albeit - the players weren't super organized, but it was a blast to use. HOWEVER - you likely have more scrimmages under your belt than I do.. so I'll concede to your experience on the subject.
D) The hornets are a big reason as to why I would bring the Starfarer as a refueling ship
E) I agree the vanguards aren't very good right now. I honestly considered a Tally as they'd be even better as torpedo slingers.. The issue being they require 4 or 5 crew members - can't remember.
All-in-all, thanks for replying with your fleet & thoughts. It'd be a lot more doable in the current state of the game (bugs aside).
Almost flawless : it's not one of the most anticipated ships in SC, it is *the* most anticipated ship in SC
Lol dang.. you got me
They realky need to undo the torp changes to the harbenger and gladiator
Hmm id say The Polaris can kind off cover its own azz with a bunch of Furies coming out of it ..... But lets say that is not the case. An A2 Hercules fully crewed can probably cover it well. In my mind you either go small or big.
A proper "Spear" formation for me would be:
A Polaris at the front, the sides x2 Perseus with an Idris in the middle/shaft. And a HH at the rear. And a couple of F7A MK II's coming out of the Idris and 1 from Polaris to cover the blind spots.
lol you cheated! Nobody is going up against that
Bro I've rewatched the damned teaser tour of the Polaris every day, multiple times a day, since the Citcon reveal. SEND HELP
I can't send help. We're in the same boat.
Bro make that three in this boat my wife says I have a problem.
@@CMDRKetchup Did you bring snacks?
@ForgeCoreGaming yeah I brought tortilla chips.
@@ForgeCoreGaming We might be seeing it today in the PTU... EVERYBODY STAY CALM! STAY FU#&N CALM!
what about the bottom stern turret of the polaris? that could cover the bottom and limited to the back side?
Yup! I missed that one in my note taking ahead of time :P - it happens.
@@ForgeCoreGaming no problem. it happens
I think the concept here is too defensive. The Polaris is a Capital ship killer. Its job is to get in fast and cripple or kill other capital ships in a fleet with the torpedo load. What it needs is a fighter escort capable of taking out, overwhelming, or distracting a ship PDS. With is shields on par with an Idris, smaller craft are not a realistic threat to the Polaris unless they can force it to stick around for a long time by preventing the torpedo hit(s). This formation to me would suite the Perseus better since it will likely have to stay in a battle for a longer time to shoot down another capital ship with his laser cannons and would need a stiff defense to do so.
I would make sure the F7 are the Ghost variant and replace the Vanguards with Sabre Firebirds. Finally I would just have 2 Hammerheads above and below to cover. Move in fast, get close enough to ensure a hit from the torpedo even if lock is broken. At the same time the Firebirds can flood the skies with smaller missiles just beforehand to give their enemy PDS something else to shoot at. Fly on thru to loop around for a second pass if necessary. During that pass, the ghosts can break off and take out anything that got in the way like manned turrets, PDS points, small ships shooting the torp, etc.
“Without further delay, let’s get into it. But before we do…”
What the hell?
Hey.. it has to be done sometimes
@@ForgeCoreGaming no.
Id swap the Starfarer for Idris personally, give the hornets somewhere to live.
I was trying to stick to ships that will be in the verse come IAE
Nice theorycraft 👍
Well thank you
Polaris has a rear gun turret underneath the ship around where the missile turret is placed, just on the underside, this is a remote control quad turret. Also there is much more significant side coverage then what youre showing. If youre going to show fireing arcs, then you really need to do this in a 3dimensional form as well, since the under side and upper side coverage is in question. The shaft of the spear would be the Idris, with it's heavier armor, and forward focused rail cannon, able to clean up and sustain after the initial attack wave.
The fleet might not have much purpose in the game as it stands now, but eventually we will have "raid-like" content, fighting enemy npc fleets, and even boarding.
Sadly I plan to Captain my own Polaris, otherwise I'd offer my medical expertise to yours. Good luck o/
there also 7 (3 top and 4 bottom) PDS turrets
I believe they need to implement an AI crew, even if it's just for tasks like operating turrets. Simply focusing on server meshing isn't enough.
That would certainly help! Take a shot of hopium with me that its coming soon(TM)
Polaris has 7 Turrets. You forgott one athe End under the Ship.
Oh im totally down to be a crew member... "too many captains, not enough crew" lol
Add me in-game: Fenyks-VII
Anjd join my org: robertsspaceindustries.com/orgs/FORGECORE
*snifffffffffffffff* ahhhhhh yes
Don't sniff that - you have no idea where its been
@ForgeCoreGaming 🥲