I noticed some people get frustrated when an INFJ is not joining them when judging a bad person, a bully, someone breaking rules, etc. Also in this case the INFJ usually wants to have more context.
when the infj is not joining them full stop. People are insanely triggered by you not joining them. It's not herd mentality, it's herd tyranny. It can manifest for stuff that is not even an issue
Once upon a time, a professor said to me after class, "You are intellectually lazy." That was fifty years ago or so, yet it has stuck with me all this time, and I have repeatedly tried to understand what that meant and means. At the time, I was too withdrawn and reserved to ask him what he meant. I don't even clearly remember anything else but what he said. Listening to this broadcast, Ren, I have a little insight, I think. You have described our tendency not to be able to articulate how we know or believe something, and I think this is what appears to be intellectual laziness. My father, who had a pretty logical mind, and with whom I differed on a number of things, particularly political, asked me to explain why I disagreed with him and tried to assure me that he was really interested, but I just couldn't have that kind of conversation comfortably. And, to boot, I'm still pondering a conversation (even if it was one-sided and only a four-word remark) that occurred a half a century ago without resolving my thoughts about it!!
Thanks for your comment. It really resonated with me, and inspired the following: To me that professor seems quite dismissive or critical when saying that you are 'intellectually lazy', especially when considering that you may have needed more time to think or where in need of words to express the information that you were processing in your mind. I feel sad when thinking that you may have needed support to back you up, like through a video like this one, and that may not have been there for you. I am sorry that happened and I hope you find steps to eventually make something out of it that is meaningful to you.
@@tkersten09 Thank you for taking time to reply and for your insights. I am thinking that relying on and trusting intuition . may be considered by others to be intellectually lazy. I eventually earned an advanced degree and have been teaching at the college level during my career, so I am not sure I am intellectually lazy.
INFJ's do not learn new things especially quickly. That's because we need to consider more than the surface information. We need to process it, think about how it fits in with our existing knowledge, and incorporate it into our way of thinking. We need to judge and decide if it's worth occupying a piece of our cerebral real estate. I don't feel comfortable giving a quick answer to a question unless it's something I've already considered. I think this is tied to our J function, and why we don't like surprises. Too much unexpected data to process at once. Wenzes explained this in one of her INFJ TH-cam videos. Hearing about this was an "AHA!" moment of clarity for me.
I have a friend who sometimes gets annoyed by my discussion style. For example in political debates they ask me "what do you think about XYZ" or "don't you agree that XYZ is bad", and I will reply with something "well what does XYZ actually mean" when for them its seemingly obvious / already established by common consensus. But I like to make sure beforehand that our definitions are on the same page, because I believe a lot of misunderstandings happen in these debates because the definitions have not been agreed on beforehand and there are in fact significant differences in peoples understandings. But for my friend this probably seems tiresome and evasive, although he mentions it in a humorous way. Not sure if this is a common INFJ thing, I would suspect this could be a typical Ti vs Te thing, maybe in combination with Ni's more holistic view and Fe trying to find a common ground.
As an ISFP, I feel like what’s a minor, & inconsequential response is still a chess game that’s forever battled out in the INFJ mind 🙃. So they may never reply.
It's annoying, example : On a Discord server, an INFJ ask a question, we are many to respond in the next hours, and the INFJ never came back, never reacted, never answered. We help them and they disappear. 😆 Yes Ni can takes a lot of time, or be quick depending if we have the info, patterns in mind or not.
When I finish other people's sentences of a conversation that i know where is going.😂 When i answer, "It depends." Just to be clear, we are on the same page on a topic. I keep trying to get better at it..
I cant tell you how many times me saying "I cant describe how I am thinking about this." Also got me into trouble because people misunderstood. I find that people also dont care about context because its logical whereas the shock value of the outcome is more emotional and we act on it which is prob another reason why people dont like us when we are like that. Another good reason why we are appropriately named "The Advocate," because we need context towards anything once we are asked. I feel like we tend to be fair with this too by making sure we arent being hypocritical as well. Some of my questions are: 1) Do you think INFJs care about money? 2) why are we the most rational feelers?
Thanks Ren. I feel backed up/empowered by your concise way of saying why my mind might not be able to give an answer right away. Equipped with them I will have an easier time to give myself permission to not give an answer that feels inauthentic or premature to me. I struggle to give quick answers and the first person who modeled to me that this is ok was the TH-camr Dr. K. He sometimes said 'I need time to think', and at first I was surprised, confused and envious xD. Now, I believe that taking that additional time to think is just what my mind needs to feel safe, comfortable and work most effectively. Why is it so bad to need more context? Context is what sets you up for an inspiring discussion. Yes, sometimes my mind needs more time which can necessitate a pause in order to express the untransparent information, or see how it relates to the rest in my mind. I wonder what we can do to ease the frustration that arises due to that break in the flow of the conversation. Still, I think we care for what was said, we just don't express that care by answering quickly, maybe there is a misunderstanding around the corner? Curious, thanks again and I hope you have a good day! I am looking forward to more topics inspired by your training as a counselor.
Te PoLR, Everything that you said they will spin it their own way and start from there. Total disregard of other's and alienating everyone they talk to. Your second point is also related to Te PoLR, they can't explain their stuff. That's why they like metaphor because it's open ended and hope that it may click to what they percieve in their Ni as traditional words won't truly describe what their Ni see or create.
Totally, for the IJ, especially INFJ INTJ, lacking one of the extroverted judging function (7th position), we have difficulty to talk, express ourselves, communicate in the T or F area, it will take them more time, or can't do it at all.
I find that people are also annoyed when you give them the missing context and tell them exactly why you disagree.
I noticed some people get frustrated when an INFJ is not joining them when judging a bad person, a bully, someone breaking rules, etc. Also in this case the INFJ usually wants to have more context.
when the infj is not joining them full stop. People are insanely triggered by you not joining them. It's not herd mentality, it's herd tyranny. It can manifest for stuff that is not even an issue
Once upon a time, a professor said to me after class, "You are intellectually lazy." That was fifty years ago or so, yet it has stuck with me all this time, and I have repeatedly tried to understand what that meant and means. At the time, I was too withdrawn and reserved to ask him what he meant. I don't even clearly remember anything else but what he said. Listening to this broadcast, Ren, I have a little insight, I think. You have described our tendency not to be able to articulate how we know or believe something, and I think this is what appears to be intellectual laziness. My father, who had a pretty logical mind, and with whom I differed on a number of things, particularly political, asked me to explain why I disagreed with him and tried to assure me that he was really interested, but I just couldn't have that kind of conversation comfortably. And, to boot, I'm still pondering a conversation (even if it was one-sided and only a four-word remark) that occurred a half a century ago without resolving my thoughts about it!!
Thanks for your comment. It really resonated with me, and inspired the following: To me that professor seems quite dismissive or critical when saying that you are 'intellectually lazy', especially when considering that you may have needed more time to think or where in need of words to express the information that you were processing in your mind. I feel sad when thinking that you may have needed support to back you up, like through a video like this one, and that may not have been there for you. I am sorry that happened and I hope you find steps to eventually make something out of it that is meaningful to you.
@@tkersten09 Thank you for taking time to reply and for your insights. I am thinking that relying on and trusting intuition . may be considered by others to be intellectually lazy. I eventually earned an advanced degree and have been teaching at the college level during my career, so I am not sure I am intellectually lazy.
I can see how our slow process of communication/decision making frustrates people.
INFJ's do not learn new things especially quickly. That's because we need to consider more than the surface information. We need to process it, think about how it fits in with our existing knowledge, and incorporate it into our way of thinking. We need to judge and decide if it's worth occupying a piece of our cerebral real estate.
I don't feel comfortable giving a quick answer to a question unless it's something I've already considered.
I think this is tied to our J function, and why we don't like surprises. Too much unexpected data to process at once.
Wenzes explained this in one of her INFJ TH-cam videos. Hearing about this was an "AHA!" moment of clarity for me.
Infjs see the whole picture, while others are part of the picture. This can make social interaction quite frustrating.
Rashomon Effect.
I have a friend who sometimes gets annoyed by my discussion style. For example in political debates they ask me "what do you think about XYZ" or "don't you agree that XYZ is bad", and I will reply with something "well what does XYZ actually mean" when for them its seemingly obvious / already established by common consensus. But I like to make sure beforehand that our definitions are on the same page, because I believe a lot of misunderstandings happen in these debates because the definitions have not been agreed on beforehand and there are in fact significant differences in peoples understandings. But for my friend this probably seems tiresome and evasive, although he mentions it in a humorous way.
Not sure if this is a common INFJ thing, I would suspect this could be a typical Ti vs Te thing, maybe in combination with Ni's more holistic view and Fe trying to find a common ground.
Lol, I do this as well and I can confirm others get annoyed by it. Particularly my Te friends.
As an ISFP, I feel like what’s a minor, & inconsequential response is still a chess game that’s forever battled out in the INFJ mind 🙃. So they may never reply.
It's annoying, example : On a Discord server, an INFJ ask a question, we are many to respond in the next hours, and the INFJ never came back, never reacted, never answered. We help them and they disappear. 😆
Yes Ni can takes a lot of time, or be quick depending if we have the info, patterns in mind or not.
When I finish other people's sentences of a conversation that i know where is going.😂
When i answer, "It depends."
Just to be clear, we are on the same page on a topic.
I keep trying to get better at it..
I cant tell you how many times me saying "I cant describe how I am thinking about this." Also got me into trouble because people misunderstood.
I find that people also dont care about context because its logical whereas the shock value of the outcome is more emotional and we act on it which is prob another reason why people dont like us when we are like that.
Another good reason why we are appropriately named "The Advocate," because we need context towards anything once we are asked. I feel like we tend to be fair with this too by making sure we arent being hypocritical as well.
Some of my questions are:
1) Do you think INFJs care about money?
2) why are we the most rational feelers?
What happens if someone does this back to an INFJ ? Then what?
we finally find someone that we could learn something from
@ beautiful perspective 🫶 :)
Thanks Ren. I feel backed up/empowered by your concise way of saying why my mind might not be able to give an answer right away. Equipped with them I will have an easier time to give myself permission to not give an answer that feels inauthentic or premature to me. I struggle to give quick answers and the first person who modeled to me that this is ok was the TH-camr Dr. K. He sometimes said 'I need time to think', and at first I was surprised, confused and envious xD. Now, I believe that taking that additional time to think is just what my mind needs to feel safe, comfortable and work most effectively. Why is it so bad to need more context? Context is what sets you up for an inspiring discussion. Yes, sometimes my mind needs more time which can necessitate a pause in order to express the untransparent information, or see how it relates to the rest in my mind. I wonder what we can do to ease the frustration that arises due to that break in the flow of the conversation. Still, I think we care for what was said, we just don't express that care by answering quickly, maybe there is a misunderstanding around the corner? Curious, thanks again and I hope you have a good day! I am looking forward to more topics inspired by your training as a counselor.
Answering a question with another question - which of course is also quite an Irish thing to do.
Tnx, helped me a lot
Te PoLR, Everything that you said they will spin it their own way and start from there. Total disregard of other's and alienating everyone they talk to.
Your second point is also related to Te PoLR, they can't explain their stuff. That's why they like metaphor because it's open ended and hope that it may click to what they percieve in their Ni as traditional words won't truly describe what their Ni see or create.
Totally, for the IJ, especially INFJ INTJ, lacking one of the extroverted judging function (7th position), we have difficulty to talk, express ourselves, communicate in the T or F area, it will take them more time, or can't do it at all.
you should drink a beer : )
Word salad but ok.