Another reason why the support was generally decided to be sent bot lane is the fact that Baron Nashor and Dragon (with their position mirroring each other) are set respectively near top and bot. And while Baron is a late game objective, having control over Dragon early is pretty important. Thus having a total of 4 players near dragon (the mid laner, the jungler and the two bot laners) allows for greater flexibility to take and defend this objective.
I really enjoy Extra Credits and it's new shows but I feel like DotA should be given credit for the quality of the 3 lane MOBA map design as it was the game that popularised it. I played LoL and DotA for years each and they're both exellent games, this isn't a "DotA it better suck it LoL players" comment. I just don't think it's entirely accurate to credit League of Legends for a design which is copied almost exactly from the game that inspired them.
If you're argumenting this way we should maybe credit the original Starcraft mod Aeon of Strife. It isn't even half as approachable as LoL though. LoL has the biggest player base and in my opinion has the least visual noise, making it argueably the best choice to show off the map.
Webkr3b5 I was going back and forth on talking about Aeon of Strife in my original comment, but in the end that's why I said "game that popularised" as while yes Aeon of Strife was technically the first it wasn't until DotA that is was truly popular and somewhat refined. I'd also argue that Dota 2 has the least visual noise, I know both games very well and following a team fight in Dota 2 is much less taxing in than a LoL one despite Dota 2 technically being the more complex game. Though know we're in opinion territory and it's not to do with the main point.
Marcio Martins Well, but there is such thing as stacking and some heroes that actually make jungle worth while. Even double Jungle strats exist. So it is debatable
i think they went with LoL to make it simpler, DotAs map (and gameplay) is arguably more complex and harder to explain to people who potentially dont know much about Mobas
Why did I expect the comments on this League video to be any different from other League videos? Maybe because I thought EC followers were a bit more level-headed? He never once credited League with coming up with the design mechanics first, just that with how big the game is (and LoL does have the bigger player base, which is undeniable, so it would logically be what more people recognize when he's talking about MOBAs), it would be stupid not to try to learn from it. Yet DotA players insist on trying to say that their game does it first or does it better for no reason other than to argue their game is better. And to the ones arguing that he should use the DotA map since they're the same but DotA's better and thus should be used, if the maps are the same why does it matter which one is used?
As a fanboy of one game it hurts to see the other being used Especially when that game is already more popular Now for the video if this was on a dota map then alot of the basic things like the 3 lanes and towers etc would all be the same as this video However the details are diffirent The jungle, dota having a long lane and a safe lane but not having bushes etc Personally i would be intrested in seeing a comparison video between the two maps and how it changes things Or even with smite and how the third person changes that
luckygozer Smite's jungle is ridiculous. There are more camps than on the League map, and it is divided into more impassable forest masses, creating a lot of winding paths. Navigating it can be tricky. I shit you not, even with the arrows pointing to objectives I still got turned around several times because the camera angle makes plotting a path nigh impossible. Paths are also more narrow, which in combination with the relative lack of blinking or jumping skills Smite has in comparison to League, makes jungle confrontations a lot more hectic. If you're losing, your only real option is to try to weave through the winding paths and hope you can escape.
Would love to hear their thoughts on the map updates that have happened since then. The new season is experimenting with some randomization to the map itself (With the new dragon changes), added small alcoves to the top and bottom lanes, and they've done much experimentation with the Rift Herald monster to try and keep the top lane from feeling too isolated from the rest of the map. Also would love to see an episode on support income and the learning curve mentioned!
I have been playing LOL for years, and I never even saw half of the impacts the map made on my game play, They were just, there! You guys are really good!
Hey EC, love this new show! Thanks for not diving too deep and staying high level with the design concepts. Looking forward to more of these. Topic suggestion: Menus and Mental Maps - how to know where your player expects certain options.
Just want to point out this may be the SINGLE BEST video to show someone who you just want to understand what is going on in a league match. Every friend who asks "What are you watching?" When i'm streaming an LCS game i will show this too and it will suddenly make a LOT more sense.
Talking about the positioning of the supports, it's no coincidence they were placed in the bottom lane instead of the top lane. They are there because of the dragon, the only major early game objective apart from the turrets.
However, their is a calculus that some teams do. However, if they are gonna try this they usually pick top or bot and simply put all 5 people down there for a turret rush, rotating damage tanking between all 5 to bring the first turret down before minions reach the turret.
I'm guessing the EC team thought that detail wasn't really important in explaining the map as a whole and might just add confusion/waste time in the video. I think they made a good call on omitting that.
Minty Mag No, It's because that had nothing to do with it. The decision to put supports bot and not top was made in DoTA, and it was just transferred over to league. And in DoTA there is no dragon or baron, and it was done for more complex reasons.
Alexandru Crudu Could be, but I think supports would've ended up in bottom lane regardless of where they were in DoTA. Most of the early game objectives are in bottom half of the map, so that's where you'll need most of your players, and rotating all the way from top just isn't fast enough. Of course, you could ask which game first, the bottom supports that contest the dragon or the bottom dragon for supports to contest, but now that the dragon is down there you basically have to place supports somewhere nearby as well.
I think you should do a video on DotA 2's, map as well. While very similar, the map has some features that effective DotA's metagame differently than LoL. Things such as: different terrain elevation (units on lower elevation can't see up higher elevation), trees make up the "Walls" of the jungle and can be cut down/destroyed to make new paths (some characters even have interactions with trees), it has a day/night cycle that affects vision, there are 2 runes that spawn every 2 minutes in the river that are highly contested, there are 2 "ancient" creep camps in each jungle that provide more gold/experience than regular jungle camps, etc. I think it would be beneficial to examine both LoL and DotA 2, since they're similar but have completely different meta games.
+Derek Kirwan || One thing I can give DOTA after trying it is that it has more mechanics. This is not a good thing in my opinion. Playing an RTS is iengaging because you manage based on some understanding of how everything works in a single moment, and can gauge how they will progress in the next few minutes based on that current understanding of the game state. Lots of players quit DOTA early on because there are unnecessary and downright frivolous mechanics that muddy the game and make it drag on in a slog during the mid game, which means there's too much question of "what the hell do I do at this moment from a purely strategic point of view to gain the advantage." The mana balancing lends itself to punishing lane aggression and forcing people to deeply think out whether or not they can all in, because unless you can all in, you shouldn't be wasting too much of your rationed mana. It feels like the game needs to remove mechanics for the purpose of presenting more clear objectives. But that's just from my point of view as a former design student, current indie, and lifelong RTS player. So I expect the incoming flame war.
Quiet Lamb nah i'm not a fan of flame wars. I disagree with your opinion, but i respect your perspective. I like having more mechanics, as i feel they add more depth to the game. Of course there is a line where too many mechanics can make a game convoluted as you said, but i don't think DotA does this. I started mobas with LoL, played for 2 years, then i switched to DotA 2, as i felt DotA 2 was a more engaging game, and i still think that to this day. I'm not bashing LoL or anything, i still play it often with my friends, but i prefer the mechanics and play styles of DotA over LoL. It's also worth noting that DotA 2 currently has 11 million monthly players who enjoy the meta/mechanics. 11 million of course is no where near as much as League, but that's still nothing to shrug off, considering DotA has been around for over a decade, which is much longer than LoL has been around, so clearly people still enjoy the game and it's mechanics over longer periods of time.
Derek Kirwan I can understand that sentiment. Its good that a game exists which sates that particular kind of MOBA fan, even if not everyone likes it. I've spent a long time with overloaded games and Im traumatized by some of the stuff Ive seen and played, and I get that feeling from it, but its probably more engaging for some people who want that added level of complexity.
+Derek Kirwan I am a LoL fan but i would like to see something for Dota2 too; one of the things that left me unsatisfied from the jungle of Dota2, besides some mechanics, is that what i thought it was the best thing ever was in truth very underdeveloped: tree mechanics, in the sense of regrowing and destroying trees to better accomodate some strategy. It is done, but is much shallow than i imagined. :P
As the LoL apologist I am I would like to add a few quips: 1) The three-lane design was not developed by League at all, but by the modders who created Defense of the Ancients (DotA). 2) That being said, League specifically added the TWO buff monsters and Baron and Dragon in to differentiate itself from DotA's singal Roschan (which was added in I believe DotA Allstars). 3) There's a vast difference in benefit between Baron and Dragon that adds a layer of depth that you completely skipped over. The support goes bottom as opposed to top literally just because of Dragon, which not only spawn much muhc earlier that Baron but is a highly contested objective early on in the game. 4) I presume you skipped Inhibitors to avoid over-complication? Or a further episode purhaps? I personally think you could simply state that they are the final goal in every lane, basically, and how they add pressure. Other than those few small quips (save 3, which I feel is pretty big, relatively) you did an amazing job. You listened to feedback and lengthened the video, well done! :)
You cannot say one single person designed the map. Guinsoo updated it, yeah, but he didn't design it by himself. Guinsoo and Pendragon work for Riot, it's not that many.
little before 4:30, the mid laner isnt in mid because they're weak and can fall back quick. the mid laner is there because they're the main powerhouse of early and mid game, so being in the middle of the map gives them quick access to the whole map so they can help get kills and gain strategic targets such as turrets very quickly.
Being able to fall back quick is an advantage worth mentioning though, and it an advantage they can state in a short video without having to go into detail about how the others lanes work, minions, and gold income.
Its more an added bonus though. the adc could go mid for the same reason, being able to fall back quickly. the mid laner is there for the reasons i listed above, but also because mid lane is easier to gank (being in the middle of the map and having so many access points). Mid laners generally have more escapes or cc, and do more burst damage meaning they have better chances of escaping if ganked.
Nicholas Kjerland For awhile ADCs did go mid, and yes, it is an added bonus, it still is a bonus, and again, it is easier to mention in a short video. And to be fair, almost every champion has some escape or CC, Mages simply have them from range, and assassins have the overall damage to dissuade dives while being typically more mobile then bruisers. Mid lane focuses on those because they also make roaming better; azir has both a wall and high mobility, Viktor has heavy cc and fast wave clear(etc)
I get that LoL is a lot more popular than its predecessors and thus more relatable, but I think that somewhere in this video that the name DotA or the mention of predecessors should have been mentioned in passing at least once. I do however enjoy how the video has a lot of information and doesn't take more time than it needs to to present it in a meaningful way.
This is pretty fantastic! Quite a lot of detail in what little time you had. There's plenty more to talk about, but if you kept at it you'd start having games of LoL longer than the video. :P I especially appreciated your illustrations of the map, boiling most everything down into dots, yet still distinct enough to be understood as different entities.
I really enjoy the depth at which ya'll explore the level design without giving it all away. There was an exceptional job well done in this particular video. Thank you.
I'd rather you'd do this with DotA. DotA started it all and is way deeper in advanced mechanics, strategies and map design, especially since LoL don't even have any sort of high/lowground in the terrain and no juking spots unless you call walking in and out of bushes juking.
I do call walking in and out of bushes juking actually, and there's way more tactics to juking too, just because you dont know them doesnt make the game obsolete in terms of tactics. I play both games and league is by far my favourite for one very simple reason: the game is straight up simpler! Dota may have things like high ground and juke spots and such like you mentioned, but it's all very complex in nature. In terms of analysing what's good about the map which league and dota share parts of is far more obvious and easier to show through analysis in league, which is why I believe they chose to analyse league. Also, just because dota came first doesnt mean it requires any more respect than League of Legends, they both partook in perfecting their different maps and such, though they are very different games now Perhaps we should comment in Smite too? and all the other mobas which share a 3 lane system? No. They chose league, probably for the reasons I stated, stop your fan boy butthurt and appreciate the message like I did
Ryan James they don't need to comment in smite because smite is derivative of both league and dota just as league is derivative of dota. this isn't an argument of which game is best (it's smite by the way ;) ) it's about giving credit where credit is due, and the map design in league is just the map from dota a few small tweaks here and there and streamlined mechanics. they should have mentioned the game that started an entire genre because yes, it does deserve a bit of respect. it's definitely worth mentioning.
I've decided to start taking notes while I watch informational youtube videos to help me retain the information provided. One thing that would make this show better is to point out more note worthy points. You do this once in this episode and I found that helpful. Just saying things like "One note worthy feature" or something similar, highlighting the importance of a specific point, would make the note taking process a lot easier. Overall its a great show and I look forward to it every week!
Any chance of you guys plan on doing a Team Fortress 2 episode? I've always thought Dustbowl is the greatest FPS level ever made and have spent a great deal of time lulling over it in Hammer. Would love toy hear your take on it!
TheThousandthPrinny But my good man, there are plenty of possible routes! In two out of the three parts, it is easy for a BLU team member to simply bypass the first point and attack from behind! Part 3 may be relatively linear, but the first two parts are veritable labyrinths!
I know Valve put a ton of work into their maps for TF2, but DustBowl never seems to play out right for me. 1 minute setup for a 30 second game. I think maybe a better opportunity would be one of the CTF maps like Doublecross. There are loads of times when I go "It's hard to Spy on this or that map" Or "Snipers dominate this map", but all classes seem the most balanced on Doublecross. The map seems to be built around allowing freedom for every playstyle, and something to counter it.
I am loving these videos, guys! Most of all I'm appreciating the focus on how designers are utilizing simple elements in design to push the quality of games. The use of simple mechanics is something I struggle with so the more information I can get on that the better! Thanks again!
These are outstanding. I always come back feeling as though I've learned a good deal about a game that I play a bunch, but have never really analyzed in a design oriented manner. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to do that.
Anti Skillshot sorry what i meant to say is that the mechanics that they showed in the video is what got me into playing league of legends I've been playing for 2 years no and yes the Toxicity is a major issue, but I don't use /All chat and who ever starts harassing me i would just block them, But what you just said I wish someone told me 2 years ago you are very right.
Terker2 I should have been a bit more specific :P, I got bored of PVP pay to win game (perfect world, RaiderZ, Tera) so i looked for a game about 2 years ago and I came across League, the mechanics of the turrets, the Lanes the Collectible aspect of it got me hooked and now 2 years latter I'm very happy I did. Yes toxicity is a major issue but disabling /All chat and muting people has worked for me.
This is probably my favorite of your new three shows. Keep these up. One thing though: even though this episode was longer, don't hesitate to take even more time with these. I realize you have constraints, like actually putting the episode up on time, but I'm sure no one would complain if you added an extra three or so minutes.
This is getting addressed as we speak with a brand new Visual Update to this map which, among other things, is introducing a new camera angle which is supposed to even out the different sides' experience regarding skill-shots (if it's still not, then they will do their utmost to improve it). Also, the map is said to be getting more symmetrical across the board.
***** Riot is not sure of what causes the advantage: There are many things to consider: Differente pathings, blue and red buffs being available to different lanes, dragon near blue or red, camera angles, differente routes to go or ward dragon and baron...
i'm not a huge player in this genre, but i just want to say that i think the format of this new show is absolutely spectacular - straight to analyzing design decisions, and how they affect player thinking. talking of the social power/position of games is important, for sure, but my favorite episodes of the 'main show' were always the more cerebral ones, like this. thank you guys so much for dedicating a whole show to this!
One problem I do have with the map design is that there's nothing immediately pushing players to have a teammate in the jungle over just having two duo-lanes. There aren't any objectives you can take in the jungle immediately, and since it's just common reasoning that two champions are stronger than one, having two champions in two lanes to either strengthen them or push to objectives faster just makes more sense to new players than having someone in the jungle. Especially since clearing the jungle alone early is a physical impossibility for many champions.
Learn the Lore how is exp distribution a form of text? you're inferring that because you're levelling slower, it would be benefitial to split. That's conveying something without any text. The "exp gained" text is normally turned off, by the way, if that's what you're getting at.
Text doesn't have to be words. +255 EXP or even the number next to a champion's health bar are also forms of text. Text here simply means explicit information that's represented through symbols rather than the implicit information that's conveyed through map design.
Learn the Lore Actually even at gold level it can work pretty good to run 2 dual lanes, especially if you are in voicechat with the other person that goes top, and you can totally destroy the enemy toplaner under his tower.
Many times in lower level games this is the normal. Mainly because there are not many champions that can clear the jungle easily with little boosts from runes and masteries. However, once you start getting closer to the level cap people realized that the two champions they sent too were weaker because they had to share gold and xp so they didn't have the items needed when it came to teamfights. Moving one to the jungle (once they had the bonus stats to clear) gave the top lamer the ability to get the items needed to become a tank or bruiser. The jungler could then attack any lane to try to get their teammates an advantage. Current competitive meta actually has the solo top laners sharing early jungle gold and xp because some teams send their duo lane up top to get the early tower/kill.
I think this episode was a step up from the last one, primarily because the editing was smoother and the subjects more in depth. There's no disputing what's being talking about, nor the intent. Do love the recommendations at the end, as it allows you to carry the knowledge effectively rather than just digesting information. The specifics about this show is what I like above whenever EC ever tackled these subjects. You describe the problem, look at the map, show the solution. That's a way that only videos can do in a short timeframe, and it uses that effectively. Simple understanding which leads to a more complex range of topics, some of which you hint on for discussion. This shouldn't be a flashy, joke filled series with limited impact. Instead you should use the design of the show to teach the design of games as well. Everything was about the level that I expect, and though some may see it as a bit dry, I think that Dan is entertaining enough merely through vocalizing to be able to carry it.
Very informational and a good explanation for players just starting out. The only thing I think that should be changed here is that your mic sounds really strange and almost robotic.. maybe get a different mic for recording or something? ^_^
I really like this "map analysis" kind of series.. thing. Do more! Even though I dislike LoL (I can't stand that control/camera style in games. It's why I think it SMITE is the best MOBA on the market, but thats just my opinion), I'd like to better know why it's as famous as it is. Map is important for sure, but League isn't nearly as newbie friendly or even as community friendly as other MOBAs and it's learning curve and the amount of information overload (all the champs, items, who beats who, etc) is freaking ridiculous... Why is it still attractive?
Not to incite wrath here but if you think that Lol is not newbie friendly or has a worse community you have not played other MOBA's. The very reason that league has the largest player base (and therefore perhaps the most prominent bad player base) is because it is newbie friendly in its mechanics while still maintaining a good amount of depth. I personally played league for about 2 years and moved over to Dota 2 when it came out of beta. I find the champions in league to be to similar to one another and really enjoy the extra depth that mechanics of the Dota 2 map offer like elevation and tree destruction as well as hero mechanics that are...well look up Invoker and tell me he is not awesome and terrifying at the same time in his mechanical complexity.
Lengin I played league for about a year in its beta/just out of beta stages, and even then it got pretty overwhelming with the amount of information, now theres easily 100+ champs you need to know to be effective. Granted that its like that in any MOBA... but some try to ease that. for example, SMITE has auto-level and a "smart" auto-buy so the game does all the "thinking" for you so you only need to focus on learning how the god works instead of 3 different aspects at once. You are right about DotA having more complex heroes and complex map elements, but there it's not nearly as many heroes to learn. DotA and SMITE seem to be more Quality(complexity) over quantity(number of champs, items, etc). Although League seems to be simpler at first glance, the sheer amount is the biggest problem. While others, once you understand that "initial" complexity (DotA's hero and map mechanics/SMITE's third person nature) they are much easier.
I think it's so attractive because when everyone doesnt know much about the meta or all the champions in the game and so on, you still have a balanced game. Riot have very cleverly (in my opinion) found ways around the information overload: 1. They give a selection of "free to pay" champions each week. Not all the champions in the game are available as soon as you start playing, so each week they give you a choice of around 8 to 10 champions for all positions, you can choose your favourite and learn that one, and over the week you'l have spent so much time around this small pool of champions you'll be a wiz by the time the next weeks free to play comes. 2. Once you find a champion you like, you can buy it, or any champion. Sure you can spend your real hard earned dollar on them, but most new players will opt for earning "influence points", earned from playing games. Simple champions may take around 5 or 6 games of play to save up for, where as complex champions could take around 20 or more! Either way this forces you to play with the free champions first and if you find one you like and have worked out, you can buy that one by the end of the week. These things combined ease the load on new players, it's how I used to do it anyway, and it's something I have massively admired in how League of Legends works as opposed to Dota2 which right out brick walls new players by doing none of this, and providing you with a tutorial which shows nothing of playing the game in the arena you'll soon be needed to know.
Ok he brought something up about the meta in this video and I feel like sharing my experience with League: I tried really hard to get into LoL about two years ago and what I never anticipated was how much information you were expected to juggle as a new player. Like stated, the meta was too steep for me to grasp; balancing things like upgrade trees, the actions of the opposing team, champion selection/team composition, the function of each lane/when to deviate from "standard" play, and basically the entire game was so vast that I was overwhelmed, underinformed, and ultimately did poorly at the game despite significant commitment of time and effort. Playing alone with strangers was largely unhelpful, especially since communication is so vital in success (especially late game from what I could tell). When I played with friends, the advice they told me was I had to perform X action in Y way without any explanation as to why, and without having a deeper understanding of the mechanics it just seemed to me like rote memorization of tasks. It may have been because I wasn't used to thinking in this manner, but even after months of play my level may have gone up but I didn't feel any significant reward or increase in skill. Meanwhile everyone around was singing the game's praises, and I thought "Is it just me? Why isn't this game fun for me? Was I doing something wrong?" When I sought help from League's notoriously toxic community the basic advice I got was "get good". Needless to say it wasn't very helpful, and one night after a particularly bad losing streak I dropped it and I haven't touched another MOBA since. I don't consider myself a bad gamer, and I'm not opposed to learning complex systems to reap reward but the element of fun never really appeared to me. Did anyone else ever feel like this? I can't be the only one. P.S: Even after all of that time I still can't tell what the hell is happening when I try to watch competitive play. Like, at all.
I think you overthinked it significantly, instead of picking up the game and trying to get good at it you should just enjoy it, there are a lot of videos that explain the intricacies of the game since it's after all a competitive esports if you are into that, friends aren't always great coaches to learn things, I think the people you asked either had no idea either or were very poor at explaining things, there is nothing done without a purpose in this game at a top level. You learn the meta by playing, and by seeing other play you figure out what works and what doesn't and there are a tons of videos and similar things explaining why something works and when, the fact that you aren't able to follow competitive play tells me that you lack in understanding, probably you decided you needed to get good and win before even learning the game, creating unrealistic standards will kill your fun. You do NOT have to perform anywhere, if you don't get the fun from trying out stuff and learning what champions do and trying them out maybe the game just isn't for you. I understand how the first impression can be overwhelming if you're not used to having to deal with such a high amount of information, but it's not like you're doing something wrong if you don't enjoy it, not all games are for everyone.
To be honest all of my friends who played with me were more focused on winning and I guess I picked up that mentality. In any case I'm not to stressed about it and now I pour all my time into Overwatch, which was much easier for me to get into.
I'm going to focus on one thing that you mentioned: do X action at Y time, without a reason. That is not really them not trying to be helpful, on the contrary they think that they are helping but don't realize that giving an order to a new player is not what you should do to teach them the game. League is a game where you need to focus on your champion first and then learn the deeper game mechanics. I persoanlly sugesst you try the support role first, as it is the most difficult role in the game to be proficient at. I get that it can be an information overload but if you start with support then you can get used to what decent players do: constantly look at the mini map and ward. Once you get used to the basic things then the other things come naturaly, simply because of how much you've played. Although if you want to understand things in greater detail I recomment the youtuber: scrapcomputer, since he goes into detail about many individual mechanics of the game along with champions.
The one moba that seems easy to get into for me at least is awesomenauts. its 2d graphics, which makes it easier to read, there are less characters, so you know who'll do what and kill you how, and the skill tree/item buy system is fairly simple to understand. I'm still crap at it, but at least I understand it, unlike league
I have plenty of friends (including my brother) trying to get me to try a moba like dota or league or even smite, and this video showed me where the entertainment in the genre lies. It's a psychological game mixed with a level of skill burried under an overwhelmingly large amount of knowledge about players and game mechanics which players are almost required to memorize and tend to learn over time, much like a complex fighting game. I'm glad you guys are using these videos to highlight not only what designers did right, but also what players like about the design of the game, whether or not it was intended. Keep it up! Design club is quickly becoming my favorite new series you guys have started
Fantastic episode. The longer length was perfect for this, though I have to say I'd love to see even longer more in depth videos from this series, even if it means they're less frequent, mixed in with some shorter ones. Also, definitely do more on LoL, excellent game and excellent overview.
If you want it to stay consistent to its schedule, then you shouldn't ask for a longer length. Egoraptor's sequelitis videos are usually a long length, but like most of his videos, it takes forever for them to come out.
As someone who only picked up LoL this year, I really enjoyed this. Good episode. It's just a pity the meta is so inflexible. A bit more wiggle room would be very nice.
NovaStalker No, DotA is equally inflexible when you start hearing about competitive meta and realize there's very specific ways to play particular comps and characters. Dawngate is what has wiggle room.
mega17 Dota 2 is not anything close to as inflexible as LoL is. I'll agree that Dawngate at least superficially has more wiggle room but if you're going to honestly try and compare the current meta of Dota 2 to LoL then you haven't a clue about Dota.
Riot's trying to implement more room for creativity with team builder and most higher elo queues don't flame you for it in the least. You might get a few frowns in ranked queue though.
CHILL FOR A MOMENT I am a lifelong LoL player, having played since well before the update of the map and i noticed only now that THER EIS A SMILE DRAWED ON THE MAP?! 0:43 blue side blue buff, there is a face that winks with a nose and a smile. I came too late i guess :c
Because I only expect them to get into one MOBA for this. :p They ultimately share so many traits that it'd be the same message, but the differences are far more visible in Dota imo.
Trying to explain Dota 2's map to someone who doesn't play MOBAs would be monumental with all the extra things you have to think about - Shops and why there are in that place, the tree cutting items and abilites, along with some of the more specific aspects that League forgos for a less complex but still interesting and well designed game. Basically, It might take longer than 15 minutes to explain all the extras that dota has.
Terker2 people in this comment section have brought up; player base size, aesthetic simplicity (by comparison) and map mechanics. It might be a lot simpler than this though. Maybe the extra credits guys just play League more and as such are more comfortable talking about the mechanics in this level of depth, as opposed to trying to talk in depth about a game they don't understand as much.
A video on de_dust2 from the Counter Strike franchise would be amazing. As its a user created and well known map it would be really interesting to get some in depth analysis on it.
Great series thus far! My one suggestion would be to include analysis with pitfalls as well as what was done right - put of what made the Skyrim opening analysis episode really good was that you pointed out not only what the designers did well, but where they could improve as well. Keep up the good work!
As a former League player, there are three things that most people like about the game. Number One, it's easy to get into, easy to learn, quite deep and not as complex. Two, competition. In LoL, there is the feeling of having to fight tooth and nail to get an advantage, and it feels great to get said power advantage and press it for a double/triple kill, and then crush the enemy base. Three, teamwork. For me, it was a good way to play with my best friend. I'd support, he would play an ADC (fragile damage character teamed with the support,) or a jungler, (explained in the video,) and coordinate attacks. Teamwork is an important part, and while the community has its problems, being on Skype tends to alleviate the problem and add that element as well. If you're wondering why I quit, BTW, I just got tired of the metagame. I tend to flit, not commit, to a game.
Jean-Michel Vaillancourt On top of that, I also believe that the characters are something that draws so many people in. I remember when I first started playing and being in love with Sona and Caitlyn just because of their aesthetics and backstory. League puts a lot of love in their characters more so than Dota in my experience. That's why we see so many more League Cosplayers than Dota ones.
MrCobrabytes I never thought of that. I loved Shyvana and Leona for how they felt rather than the aesthetics, but I do admit to buying a skin or two. Still, just never seemed to be an important part of the game to me.
Jean-Michel Vaillancourt I understand that, but those points can be applied to a lot of games, I'm talking specifically about the gameplay. I used to think this game was a "niche thing" and I just couldn't appreciate it, but everyone's fucking playing it. Maybe this genre just isn't for me.
I have played this game nearly every day after work, since it came out. The maps have changed over the years. The points that you made regarding Summoner's Rift were accurate and well thought out. Kudos on the video. :)
And aren't Dota2 map and mechanics MUCH more interesting? Same vision system but works better, warding, dewarding, spawn blocking, pulling, stacking, ganking, getting players stuck on a cliff , destroying trees and sneaking through the forest, so many places to hide, day night cycle that alters all vision, balanced asymmetry (!), cliffs for warding, RUNES. Dota map was evolving for more than a decade.
Probably because DOTA has no meta. Which means that there is nothing to talk about in this series. Having no meta means the map has almost no influence on how players as a whole play the game. It is not even a matter of too much to cover, hell even the LOL map changed in these 2 years, just not to the point where it changed the way people interact with the map.
Anime GOD I could say: "No you are wrong, and that made no sense anyway. No meta?" Its like saying there are no gameplay mechanics. There are more mechanics, there is MORE complex metagame.
I love this series. I'm so happy to see you guys expanding into the more technical realm of game design. Your show has already encouraged me to reexamine several aspects of my own work, both in and out of the gaming industry. Thank you.
1. Aeon strife created the MOBA genre with the 3 lane system as a mod of Starcraft. 2. Steve "Guinsoo" Feak creates a mod for WC3 with a couple of others called DOTA inspired from Aeon Strife. 3. Icefrog comes in and introduces the mordern item system which revolutionizes the game and genre itself. 4. Dota becomes super popular worldwide 5. Steve and Icefrog disagree on the path the game is taking. Steve leaves and starts work on League. 6. LoL becomes hugely popular. 7. Valve hires Icefrog to create dota 2. 8. Dota 2 released and pick up greatly in popularity. 8. Fans sit and argue about which game is better while the games themselves are almost completely different in terms of mechanics and gameplay. They are 2 very different games people. I play both. Ive competed in small time tournaments in both. Saying they are the same is like saying quake and CS are the same just coz they are both FPSs.
I really really really enjoy design club. I know it takes a long time to make them because of the depth that you go into but I want more!!!! more!!! more!!! But seriously, the quality is the greatest asset of the show. Keep up the insightfulness!
I love this show!!! It's so incredible going deeper to the way certain mechanics, or design choices are evident in the final game. I love love love it :D
Although this is a great episode I feel like you should have mentioned Dota 2 or at least warcraft 2 dota since that's where the map originated. Giving credit to league is unjustified in that regard. 3 lane moba's started there
I guess you mean warcraft 3? I may be wrong, but I never heard of dota starting in warcraft 2. Also btw, prior to dota, there was Aeon of Strife, in the original Starcraft ;)
The guy who created the DotA map led design on League of Legends for Riot Games. The guy who leads design of DotA 2 was the guy who kept "updated" the DotA mod map after inheriting control of it, but he didn't create it. Also, Aeon of Strife, like Jon said.
the dota map is flawed tho, being you can run anywhere and the map is massively asymmetrical rather than just having rotational symmetry it's vastly different league of legends perfected the map, just cos dota came first does that make it better?
Interesting video :) I knew most of the things which was pointed out, but it is really nice to have a simple, yet informative video about summoner's rift. I'll definitely show this to others who wants to know about the rift, but never have tried out LoL.
Matt Fischer In which case, there was no point in you making your initial post. You were wasting your breath and time when you could have been doing something more productive.
The map is also why Dota is deeper than LoL. The central River in Dota is inclined into the map, by roughly one to a half a hero's height, whie LoL's is largely the same height as everywhere else. Thus Dota's map is deeper.
While I don't care for much of the LoL vs Dota arguements, I am kinda frustrated you went with the map that league of legends copied from dota, which was used and refined for 6 whole years before LoL came out. Give credit to where credit is due. Riot did not design this map.
One of the things I remember most about this map is always trying to be in the Southern spawn because of the Camera angle. There's a sense of gaining understanding of your terrain, even if only psychologically, when approaching from the South, where with the North, you're always moving in the direction the camera is technically pointed away from, leaving you feeling vulnerable. This doesn't apply to all players, but something I do remember being a constant with the group I played with.
dota fan boy butthurt guy, what if I told you that it actually started in a star craft mod? How far are we gonna trace back until we just realise that it's the perfected piece we're appreciating and analysing, not who came up with it first.
***** statisticly Wii Sports is the best game ever created with Minecraft in 3rd having 2x the copies of lol sold and i don't remember 2nd place so TAKE THAT
***** you deer 7 year old learn thes 3 things ! iwas talking shear numbers 2 there is no accounting for taste 3 no im polish american most polish people are worse and i am just such as i have asperger syndrome
Great episode! I could watch design breakdowns of Moba's for days. They are an incredibly dense example of solid game design dos and don'ts since you literally have 1 map to get right that will define the game for the foreseeable future.
here is what actually happened, riot found dota can be milked so they made lol (casual version of dota so they can milk kids) and since then they were lickin lol community butts with theyr patches focusing on what people wanted. who played lol in the beginning knew that there was no such thing as 1-1-2 on lanes. they didnt know what they were doing really. dominion is a good look at theyr level of creativity on level design, its a mess. if you really want to know how summoners rift came to be what it is you shuld go to the roots, the basic idea. becouse it didnt happen in a day of writing on a white board. its a growing thing.
Loving this new show. Its great so far an i like how you are doing new games as well as old ones. I wouldnt mind you guys doing an episode about bad design either but i guess you wouldnt want to directly attack someones work. Either way, cant wait for the next episode!
I've never played LoL and don't intend to, but even so, it's incredibly interesting to see how such seemingly simple design choices can affect so much. Designing D&D games a lot, any information about drawing attention to certain kinds of designs is useful, and I think this series is off to a great start.
They both have their strengths and weaknesses. League of Legends has had more time to refine their game and have such a large community to help them out. Thus, making it the superior experience, for now, at least in my opinion.
well dota2 is gaining a lot of momentum and has a massive playerbase by now (though still not as large as lols) as a person that played lol quite a lot and then switched back to dota2 when they started inviting for beta i must say that the reason i started playing lol in the first place was because it was a dota clone with proper controls and was just more accessible and better looking compared to the anchient dota based on wc3 tft. in the end i think there is room for both games on the market. to adress your question i think its usual with things where you need a lot of investment that you'll gain a certain loyalty to the product sparking "conlfict" kinda like with consoles.
fact from my friend who play LoL then DotA he said after some game he said "F**K im play LoL again" DotA is HQ red wine and LoL is good time Coca Cola. its has different taste.
This is awesome, i love these shows and enjoy the longer format, don't stop making these! Just curious though why you chose league over day dota. There's more asymmetry, and deeper laning options, and a few more mechanics. Really though enjoyed the longer episode. A show like this should be longer than 3-5 minutes
I really like this format. The design episodes where always my favorite, and taking some more time to explain a specific scenario in depth, really adds to the regular show. However I would enjoy some sort of 'homework assignment' before the release of this kind of show. Maybe announce what 'we' would be studying this week (?) and give a pointer, so we could try to figure some things you mention out in advance. It would deepen my experience i think.
I like this segment even more than the main show! I've always been fascinated by this sort of psychological design, and how the mechanics and level affect the player without directly telling them what to do.
Another awesome episode. It was nice to go from an incredibly simple single player experience like Mario to a very complex multiplayer team game like LoL, just to demonstrate how the external elements of design influence the *way* a level is played, rather than focusing explicitly on what each individual building block tells the player in and of itself. I'd be really interested to see an episode focusing on a less gameplay-driven example of level design, where the elements of, say, a level in a horror game help to reinforce the tone and atmosphere.
As an avid League of Legends player, this episode, and others like it, deeply fascinates me. I'd love to see more on the map itself, and how/why you think the meta game evolved around it.
Still love this show the best out of all of them. Hoping it becomes A) more commonly updated or B) longer per episode. Getting us to think about specific elements in maps and levels is incredibly useful. Being instructed in how to think about existing games is a skill rarely taught, and despite its obvious utility in game design, it adds a new perspective to what many of us once found familiar. If there was one thing that may detract from these episodes so far, it's the lack of a formula. In the first episode, we had a step by step walkthough of what it's like to play the level. In this, we had a sort of smorgasbord of different ideas about the map - it didn't feel as unified as an episode because of that. Now, obviously you need to change up the format as appropriate to each game examined, but I feel like establishing what sorts of things you're going to cover in each game would be helpful. We could spend HOURS on each of these maps, BUT when you went through just the individual events in 1-1, even though you didn't complete the map, that video felt unified and complete. In this video, I finished not really knowing how much I got from it. Maybe that's a function of my being dumb - I've only watched the video once, but my intuition is that the topics covered seemed to switch from the rules of the game itself to the higher concept of complexity through geometry back to the progression of a game. I think if you found a way to make these topics more predictable at the outset, we could better absorb their importance, and each episode could feel better as a result. This is a strange and subtle critique I feel. But although there's a great multitude of topics I'd like to be covered (strategy game maps in particular), I feel you have a great mastery of picking interesting subjects. I hope the critique provokes some thought. Can't wait for the next episode!
This was a great episode! I don't really play league but I do appreciate what a finely tuned and balanced game it is. I found the visuals (I.e. The map overlays) to be very helpful in dissecting the map as a whole.
The hidden nature of the Jungler kind of reminds me of a key principle in German board game design. The inclusion of secretive elements which could surface at any moment and totally shift the balance of play unexpectedly helps to keep everything feel competitive no matter how big a disadvantage you seem to be at.
I love this show. Personally, I want to see Super Smash Brothers Melee analyzed. There's SO much to go over, it has amazing depth and is very intuitive, and a kicking competitive scene. Smash is fundamentally different compared to most fighting games, and I feel that talking about it would go along nicely with EC's recent video about fighting games, especially since it does break that 'difficult to learn' mold and memorization pattern of so many.
Great show guys! One idea that might be useful would be to focus an episode on a broad level design topic like "steering/guiding players" then show examples of different games and how they accomplished it via lighting, geometry, sound, events, etc.
Not a fan of the genre, but there is a lot to learn from this level of depth. Keep it up Extra Credits team! I'd love to see an episode on 3D platformers, or how to teach players in an "open-world" setting :)
On a tangential note, IIRC if you picked up the Orange Box there was an option to turn on developer commentary for HL2 and Episodes 1 and 2, and there were a lot of these really fascinating insights. I think it would be great if more developers did these sort of things.
This is a great show. Literally my only qualm is that it can't be more often but hey, you gotta do what you gotta do. If the choice is this show every two weeks or not at all, I'd go with every two weeks in a second. Keep up the awesomeness.
Another reason why the support was generally decided to be sent bot lane is the fact that Baron Nashor and Dragon (with their position mirroring each other) are set respectively near top and bot. And while Baron is a late game objective, having control over Dragon early is pretty important. Thus having a total of 4 players near dragon (the mid laner, the jungler and the two bot laners) allows for greater flexibility to take and defend this objective.
I never understood why the support cant go mid?
I really enjoy Extra Credits and it's new shows but I feel like DotA should be given credit for the quality of the 3 lane MOBA map design as it was the game that popularised it. I played LoL and DotA for years each and they're both exellent games, this isn't a "DotA it better suck it LoL players" comment. I just don't think it's entirely accurate to credit League of Legends for a design which is copied almost exactly from the game that inspired them.
If you're argumenting this way we should maybe credit the original Starcraft mod Aeon of Strife. It isn't even half as approachable as LoL though. LoL has the biggest player base and in my opinion has the least visual noise, making it argueably the best choice to show off the map.
LoL implemented the "worth to do jungle". Jungle in dota is not rewarding as in LoL
Webkr3b5 I was going back and forth on talking about Aeon of Strife in my original comment, but in the end that's why I said "game that popularised" as while yes Aeon of Strife was technically the first it wasn't until DotA that is was truly popular and somewhat refined. I'd also argue that Dota 2 has the least visual noise, I know both games very well and following a team fight in Dota 2 is much less taxing in than a LoL one despite Dota 2 technically being the more complex game. Though know we're in opinion territory and it's not to do with the main point.
Marcio Martins Well, but there is such thing as stacking and some heroes that actually make jungle worth while. Even double Jungle strats exist. So it is debatable
i think they went with LoL to make it simpler, DotAs map (and gameplay) is arguably more complex and harder to explain to people who potentially dont know much about Mobas
I miss design club
+Nikolaj Lepka I think it's their twitch show
@@ryanmcclure3749 there definitely is a twitch show design club now, Mondays ;)
Check out Game Makers Toolkit, it's very similar to this sort of content and very high quality
Why did I expect the comments on this League video to be any different from other League videos? Maybe because I thought EC followers were a bit more level-headed?
He never once credited League with coming up with the design mechanics first, just that with how big the game is (and LoL does have the bigger player base, which is undeniable, so it would logically be what more people recognize when he's talking about MOBAs), it would be stupid not to try to learn from it. Yet DotA players insist on trying to say that their game does it first or does it better for no reason other than to argue their game is better. And to the ones arguing that he should use the DotA map since they're the same but DotA's better and thus should be used, if the maps are the same why does it matter which one is used?
As a fanboy of one game it hurts to see the other being used
Especially when that game is already more popular
Now for the video if this was on a dota map then alot of the basic things like the 3 lanes and towers etc would all be the same as this video
However the details are diffirent
The jungle, dota having a long lane and a safe lane but not having bushes etc
Personally i would be intrested in seeing a comparison video between the two maps and how it changes things
Or even with smite and how the third person changes that
luckygozer Smite's jungle is ridiculous. There are more camps than on the League map, and it is divided into more impassable forest masses, creating a lot of winding paths. Navigating it can be tricky. I shit you not, even with the arrows pointing to objectives I still got turned around several times because the camera angle makes plotting a path nigh impossible. Paths are also more narrow, which in combination with the relative lack of blinking or jumping skills Smite has in comparison to League, makes jungle confrontations a lot more hectic. If you're losing, your only real option is to try to weave through the winding paths and hope you can escape.
Would love to hear their thoughts on the map updates that have happened since then. The new season is experimenting with some randomization to the map itself (With the new dragon changes), added small alcoves to the top and bottom lanes, and they've done much experimentation with the Rift Herald monster to try and keep the top lane from feeling too isolated from the rest of the map.
Also would love to see an episode on support income and the learning curve mentioned!
I have just one difficult request about this show: it should be longer.
Nice analysis
I agree. I would happily watch half hour episodes.
same
I have been playing LOL for years, and I never even saw half of the impacts the map made on my game play, They were just, there! You guys are really good!
Can I request a design club on Green Hill Zone from Sonic 1? Would love to see your thoughts on it! Great work, as always, guys!
Hey EC, love this new show! Thanks for not diving too deep and staying high level with the design concepts. Looking forward to more of these. Topic suggestion: Menus and Mental Maps - how to know where your player expects certain options.
we want more design club
we want more design club!!!
Just want to point out this may be the SINGLE BEST video to show someone who you just want to understand what is going on in a league match. Every friend who asks "What are you watching?" When i'm streaming an LCS game i will show this too and it will suddenly make a LOT more sense.
Talking about the positioning of the supports, it's no coincidence they were placed in the bottom lane instead of the top lane. They are there because of the dragon, the only major early game objective apart from the turrets.
However, their is a calculus that some teams do. However, if they are gonna try this they usually pick top or bot and simply put all 5 people down there for a turret rush, rotating damage tanking between all 5 to bring the first turret down before minions reach the turret.
I'm guessing the EC team thought that detail wasn't really important in explaining the map as a whole and might just add confusion/waste time in the video. I think they made a good call on omitting that.
Agreed, just thought it interesting enough to share in the comments :)
Minty Mag No, It's because that had nothing to do with it. The decision to put supports bot and not top was made in DoTA, and it was just transferred over to league. And in DoTA there is no dragon or baron, and it was done for more complex reasons.
Alexandru Crudu Could be, but I think supports would've ended up in bottom lane regardless of where they were in DoTA. Most of the early game objectives are in bottom half of the map, so that's where you'll need most of your players, and rotating all the way from top just isn't fast enough.
Of course, you could ask which game first, the bottom supports that contest the dragon or the bottom dragon for supports to contest, but now that the dragon is down there you basically have to place supports somewhere nearby as well.
I wondered so much about why the LoL meta is the way it is. It seemed so arbitrary but you cleared up a lot of mystery, thank you.
I think you should do a video on DotA 2's, map as well. While very similar, the map has some features that effective DotA's metagame differently than LoL. Things such as: different terrain elevation (units on lower elevation can't see up higher elevation), trees make up the "Walls" of the jungle and can be cut down/destroyed to make new paths (some characters even have interactions with trees), it has a day/night cycle that affects vision, there are 2 runes that spawn every 2 minutes in the river that are highly contested, there are 2 "ancient" creep camps in each jungle that provide more gold/experience than regular jungle camps, etc. I think it would be beneficial to examine both LoL and DotA 2, since they're similar but have completely different meta games.
+Derek Kirwan || One thing I can give DOTA after trying it is that it has more mechanics.
This is not a good thing in my opinion. Playing an RTS is iengaging because you manage based on some understanding of how everything works in a single moment, and can gauge how they will progress in the next few minutes based on that current understanding of the game state. Lots of players quit DOTA early on because there are unnecessary and downright frivolous mechanics that muddy the game and make it drag on in a slog during the mid game, which means there's too much question of "what the hell do I do at this moment from a purely strategic point of view to gain the advantage." The mana balancing lends itself to punishing lane aggression and forcing people to deeply think out whether or not they can all in, because unless you can all in, you shouldn't be wasting too much of your rationed mana. It feels like the game needs to remove mechanics for the purpose of presenting more clear objectives.
But that's just from my point of view as a former design student, current indie, and lifelong RTS player. So I expect the incoming flame war.
Quiet Lamb
nah i'm not a fan of flame wars. I disagree with your opinion, but i respect your perspective. I like having more mechanics, as i feel they add more depth to the game. Of course there is a line where too many mechanics can make a game convoluted as you said, but i don't think DotA does this. I started mobas with LoL, played for 2 years, then i switched to DotA 2, as i felt DotA 2 was a more engaging game, and i still think that to this day. I'm not bashing LoL or anything, i still play it often with my friends, but i prefer the mechanics and play styles of DotA over LoL. It's also worth noting that DotA 2 currently has 11 million monthly players who enjoy the meta/mechanics. 11 million of course is no where near as much as League, but that's still nothing to shrug off, considering DotA has been around for over a decade, which is much longer than LoL has been around, so clearly people still enjoy the game and it's mechanics over longer periods of time.
Derek Kirwan I can understand that sentiment. Its good that a game exists which sates that particular kind of MOBA fan, even if not everyone likes it. I've spent a long time with overloaded games and Im traumatized by some of the stuff Ive seen and played, and I get that feeling from it, but its probably more engaging for some people who want that added level of complexity.
+Derek Kirwan I am a LoL fan but i would like to see something for Dota2 too; one of the things that left me unsatisfied from the jungle of Dota2, besides some mechanics, is that what i thought it was the best thing ever was in truth very underdeveloped: tree mechanics, in the sense of regrowing and destroying trees to better accomodate some strategy. It is done, but is much shallow than i imagined. :P
As the LoL apologist I am I would like to add a few quips:
1) The three-lane design was not developed by League at all, but by the modders who created Defense of the Ancients (DotA).
2) That being said, League specifically added the TWO buff monsters and Baron and Dragon in to differentiate itself from DotA's singal Roschan (which was added in I believe DotA Allstars).
3) There's a vast difference in benefit between Baron and Dragon that adds a layer of depth that you completely skipped over. The support goes bottom as opposed to top literally just because of Dragon, which not only spawn much muhc earlier that Baron but is a highly contested objective early on in the game.
4) I presume you skipped Inhibitors to avoid over-complication? Or a further episode purhaps? I personally think you could simply state that they are the final goal in every lane, basically, and how they add pressure.
Other than those few small quips (save 3, which I feel is pretty big, relatively) you did an amazing job. You listened to feedback and lengthened the video, well done! :)
three lane design was actually made by Aeon of Strife. Even if it weren't- the person who designed DotA's map also designed League's map.
TheSpideryOne The firsts are real
I forgot about that second one, and you're right. A lot of ex-DotA people worked for (and still work for) Riot.
You cannot say one single person designed the map. Guinsoo updated it, yeah, but he didn't design it by himself.
Guinsoo and Pendragon work for Riot, it's not that many.
LoL split apart from DOTA, so they copied some ideas. But I guess that's ok :D
little before 4:30, the mid laner isnt in mid because they're weak and can fall back quick. the mid laner is there because they're the main powerhouse of early and mid game, so being in the middle of the map gives them quick access to the whole map so they can help get kills and gain strategic targets such as turrets very quickly.
Being able to fall back quick is an advantage worth mentioning though, and it an advantage they can state in a short video without having to go into detail about how the others lanes work, minions, and gold income.
Its more an added bonus though. the adc could go mid for the same reason, being able to fall back quickly. the mid laner is there for the reasons i listed above, but also because mid lane is easier to gank (being in the middle of the map and having so many access points). Mid laners generally have more escapes or cc, and do more burst damage meaning they have better chances of escaping if ganked.
Nicholas Kjerland For awhile ADCs did go mid, and yes, it is an added bonus, it still is a bonus, and again, it is easier to mention in a short video. And to be fair, almost every champion has some escape or CC, Mages simply have them from range, and assassins have the overall damage to dissuade dives while being typically more mobile then bruisers. Mid lane focuses on those because they also make roaming better; azir has both a wall and high mobility, Viktor has heavy cc and fast wave clear(etc)
I get that LoL is a lot more popular than its predecessors and thus more relatable, but I think that somewhere in this video that the name DotA or the mention of predecessors should have been mentioned in passing at least once. I do however enjoy how the video has a lot of information and doesn't take more time than it needs to to present it in a meaningful way.
This is pretty fantastic! Quite a lot of detail in what little time you had. There's plenty more to talk about, but if you kept at it you'd start having games of LoL longer than the video. :P I especially appreciated your illustrations of the map, boiling most everything down into dots, yet still distinct enough to be understood as different entities.
I really enjoy the depth at which ya'll explore the level design without giving it all away. There was an exceptional job well done in this particular video. Thank you.
I would like a design club showing where some games fail, like what you did with Skyrim's opening. Learn more from mistakes, after all.
I would love to see some analysis of stealth game level design and/or gameplay dealing with the power the player has. Great job so far!
I'd rather you'd do this with DotA. DotA started it all and is way deeper in advanced mechanics, strategies and map design, especially since LoL don't even have any sort of high/lowground in the terrain and no juking spots unless you call walking in and out of bushes juking.
AoS started it, not DotA...
That's true, but DotA is what popularised it.
Other than the three lanes/towers though, it's not really that similar. League and Dota jungles are very different.
I do call walking in and out of bushes juking actually, and there's way more tactics to juking too, just because you dont know them doesnt make the game obsolete in terms of tactics.
I play both games and league is by far my favourite for one very simple reason: the game is straight up simpler! Dota may have things like high ground and juke spots and such like you mentioned, but it's all very complex in nature.
In terms of analysing what's good about the map which league and dota share parts of is far more obvious and easier to show through analysis in league, which is why I believe they chose to analyse league.
Also, just because dota came first doesnt mean it requires any more respect than League of Legends, they both partook in perfecting their different maps and such, though they are very different games now
Perhaps we should comment in Smite too? and all the other mobas which share a 3 lane system?
No. They chose league, probably for the reasons I stated, stop your fan boy butthurt and appreciate the message like I did
Ryan James they don't need to comment in smite because smite is derivative of both league and dota just as league is derivative of dota. this isn't an argument of which game is best (it's smite by the way ;) ) it's about giving credit where credit is due, and the map design in league is just the map from dota a few small tweaks here and there and streamlined mechanics. they should have mentioned the game that started an entire genre because yes, it does deserve a bit of respect. it's definitely worth mentioning.
I've decided to start taking notes while I watch informational youtube videos to help me retain the information provided. One thing that would make this show better is to point out more note worthy points. You do this once in this episode and I found that helpful. Just saying things like "One note worthy feature" or something similar, highlighting the importance of a specific point, would make the note taking process a lot easier. Overall its a great show and I look forward to it every week!
Any chance of you guys plan on doing a Team Fortress 2 episode? I've always thought Dustbowl is the greatest FPS level ever made and have spent a great deal of time lulling over it in Hammer. Would love toy hear your take on it!
I like 2Fort more than dustbowl myself.
Great idea!
I personally don't like Dustbowl though. There aren't a lot of possible routes and it's a bit cramped.
TheThousandthPrinny
But my good man, there are plenty of possible routes! In two out of the three parts, it is easy for a BLU team member to simply bypass the first point and attack from behind! Part 3 may be relatively linear, but the first two parts are veritable labyrinths!
I know Valve put a ton of work into their maps for TF2, but DustBowl never seems to play out right for me. 1 minute setup for a 30 second game. I think maybe a better opportunity would be one of the CTF maps like Doublecross. There are loads of times when I go "It's hard to Spy on this or that map" Or "Snipers dominate this map", but all classes seem the most balanced on Doublecross. The map seems to be built around allowing freedom for every playstyle, and something to counter it.
I am loving these videos, guys! Most of all I'm appreciating the focus on how designers are utilizing simple elements in design to push the quality of games. The use of simple mechanics is something I struggle with so the more information I can get on that the better! Thanks again!
Great comment section right here
These are outstanding. I always come back feeling as though I've learned a good deal about a game that I play a bunch, but have never really analyzed in a design oriented manner. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to do that.
Very nice this is what it got me into playing League of Legends!!! after playing so many MMORPGS and RTS.....
Did you just start playing the game? :D Or the facts addressed in the video made you start playing?
Well, everything mentioned in the video can be directed to nearly any "MOBA" out there
Anti Skillshot sorry what i meant to say is that the mechanics that they showed in the video is what got me into playing league of legends I've been playing for 2 years no and yes the Toxicity is a major issue, but I don't use /All chat and who ever starts harassing me i would just block them, But what you just said I wish someone told me 2 years ago you are very right.
Terker2 I should have been a bit more specific :P, I got bored of PVP pay to win game (perfect world, RaiderZ, Tera) so i looked for a game about 2 years ago and I came across League, the mechanics of the turrets, the Lanes the Collectible aspect of it got me hooked and now 2 years latter I'm very happy I did. Yes toxicity is a major issue but disabling /All chat and muting people has worked for me.
This is probably my favorite of your new three shows. Keep these up.
One thing though: even though this episode was longer, don't hesitate to take even more time with these. I realize you have constraints, like actually putting the episode up on time, but I'm sure no one would complain if you added an extra three or so minutes.
The map may be good but study's show the blue team has advantages due to the camera and buff locations.
I think purple teams' towers are more durable, not totally sure but I strongly think so
Cesar Tijerina no they aren't
Wasn't there a way they balanced it by having purple obtain gold slightly easier though?
This is getting addressed as we speak with a brand new Visual Update to this map which, among other things, is introducing a new camera angle which is supposed to even out the different sides' experience regarding skill-shots (if it's still not, then they will do their utmost to improve it). Also, the map is said to be getting more symmetrical across the board.
***** Riot is not sure of what causes the advantage: There are many things to consider: Differente pathings, blue and red buffs being available to different lanes, dragon near blue or red, camera angles, differente routes to go or ward dragon and baron...
i'm not a huge player in this genre, but i just want to say that i think the format of this new show is absolutely spectacular - straight to analyzing design decisions, and how they affect player thinking. talking of the social power/position of games is important, for sure, but my favorite episodes of the 'main show' were always the more cerebral ones, like this. thank you guys so much for dedicating a whole show to this!
One problem I do have with the map design is that there's nothing immediately pushing players to have a teammate in the jungle over just having two duo-lanes. There aren't any objectives you can take in the jungle immediately, and since it's just common reasoning that two champions are stronger than one, having two champions in two lanes to either strengthen them or push to objectives faster just makes more sense to new players than having someone in the jungle. Especially since clearing the jungle alone early is a physical impossibility for many champions.
But the claim that was made here was that all of this was conveyed without any text. EXP distribution is a form of text.
Learn the Lore how is exp distribution a form of text? you're inferring that because you're levelling slower, it would be benefitial to split. That's conveying something without any text. The "exp gained" text is normally turned off, by the way, if that's what you're getting at.
Text doesn't have to be words. +255 EXP or even the number next to a champion's health bar are also forms of text. Text here simply means explicit information that's represented through symbols rather than the implicit information that's conveyed through map design.
Learn the Lore Actually even at gold level it can work pretty good to run 2 dual lanes, especially if you are in voicechat with the other person that goes top, and you can totally destroy the enemy toplaner under his tower.
Many times in lower level games this is the normal. Mainly because there are not many champions that can clear the jungle easily with little boosts from runes and masteries.
However, once you start getting closer to the level cap people realized that the two champions they sent too were weaker because they had to share gold and xp so they didn't have the items needed when it came to teamfights. Moving one to the jungle (once they had the bonus stats to clear) gave the top lamer the ability to get the items needed to become a tank or bruiser. The jungler could then attack any lane to try to get their teammates an advantage.
Current competitive meta actually has the solo top laners sharing early jungle gold and xp because some teams send their duo lane up top to get the early tower/kill.
I think this episode was a step up from the last one, primarily because the editing was smoother and the subjects more in depth. There's no disputing what's being talking about, nor the intent. Do love the recommendations at the end, as it allows you to carry the knowledge effectively rather than just digesting information.
The specifics about this show is what I like above whenever EC ever tackled these subjects. You describe the problem, look at the map, show the solution. That's a way that only videos can do in a short timeframe, and it uses that effectively. Simple understanding which leads to a more complex range of topics, some of which you hint on for discussion. This shouldn't be a flashy, joke filled series with limited impact. Instead you should use the design of the show to teach the design of games as well. Everything was about the level that I expect, and though some may see it as a bit dry, I think that Dan is entertaining enough merely through vocalizing to be able to carry it.
Very informational and a good explanation for players just starting out. The only thing I think that should be changed here is that your mic sounds really strange and almost robotic.. maybe get a different mic for recording or something? ^_^
It's a voice changer, he's meant to sound that way.
Jaynee your voice is very close to this anyway isn't it? :P
A trick : watch movies at Flixzone. Been using them for watching a lot of movies these days.
@Finley Jamir yea, been watching on flixzone} for years myself :)
@Finley Jamir Yup, been watching on Flixzone} for months myself =)
I love everything about the episode, it's comprehensive without being too deep on any one topic.
I really like this "map analysis" kind of series.. thing. Do more! Even though I dislike LoL (I can't stand that control/camera style in games. It's why I think it SMITE is the best MOBA on the market, but thats just my opinion), I'd like to better know why it's as famous as it is. Map is important for sure, but League isn't nearly as newbie friendly or even as community friendly as other MOBAs and it's learning curve and the amount of information overload (all the champs, items, who beats who, etc) is freaking ridiculous... Why is it still attractive?
Not to incite wrath here but if you think that Lol is not newbie friendly or has a worse community you have not played other MOBA's. The very reason that league has the largest player base (and therefore perhaps the most prominent bad player base) is because it is newbie friendly in its mechanics while still maintaining a good amount of depth. I personally played league for about 2 years and moved over to Dota 2 when it came out of beta. I find the champions in league to be to similar to one another and really enjoy the extra depth that mechanics of the Dota 2 map offer like elevation and tree destruction as well as hero mechanics that are...well look up Invoker and tell me he is not awesome and terrifying at the same time in his mechanical complexity.
Lengin I played league for about a year in its beta/just out of beta stages, and even then it got pretty overwhelming with the amount of information, now theres easily 100+ champs you need to know to be effective. Granted that its like that in any MOBA... but some try to ease that. for example, SMITE has auto-level and a "smart" auto-buy so the game does all the "thinking" for you so you only need to focus on learning how the god works instead of 3 different aspects at once. You are right about DotA having more complex heroes and complex map elements, but there it's not nearly as many heroes to learn. DotA and SMITE seem to be more Quality(complexity) over quantity(number of champs, items, etc). Although League seems to be simpler at first glance, the sheer amount is the biggest problem. While others, once you understand that "initial" complexity (DotA's hero and map mechanics/SMITE's third person nature) they are much easier.
I think it's so attractive because when everyone doesnt know much about the meta or all the champions in the game and so on, you still have a balanced game. Riot have very cleverly (in my opinion) found ways around the information overload:
1. They give a selection of "free to pay" champions each week. Not all the champions in the game are available as soon as you start playing, so each week they give you a choice of around 8 to 10 champions for all positions, you can choose your favourite and learn that one, and over the week you'l have spent so much time around this small pool of champions you'll be a wiz by the time the next weeks free to play comes.
2. Once you find a champion you like, you can buy it, or any champion. Sure you can spend your real hard earned dollar on them, but most new players will opt for earning "influence points", earned from playing games. Simple champions may take around 5 or 6 games of play to save up for, where as complex champions could take around 20 or more! Either way this forces you to play with the free champions first and if you find one you like and have worked out, you can buy that one by the end of the week.
These things combined ease the load on new players, it's how I used to do it anyway, and it's something I have massively admired in how League of Legends works as opposed to Dota2 which right out brick walls new players by doing none of this, and providing you with a tutorial which shows nothing of playing the game in the arena you'll soon be needed to know.
Love this series thus far. Keep up the great work.
Ok he brought something up about the meta in this video and I feel like sharing my experience with League:
I tried really hard to get into LoL about two years ago and what I never anticipated was how much information you were expected to juggle as a new player. Like stated, the meta was too steep for me to grasp; balancing things like upgrade trees, the actions of the opposing team, champion selection/team composition, the function of each lane/when to deviate from "standard" play, and basically the entire game was so vast that I was overwhelmed, underinformed, and ultimately did poorly at the game despite significant commitment of time and effort. Playing alone with strangers was largely unhelpful, especially since communication is so vital in success (especially late game from what I could tell). When I played with friends, the advice they told me was I had to perform X action in Y way without any explanation as to why, and without having a deeper understanding of the mechanics it just seemed to me like rote memorization of tasks. It may have been because I wasn't used to thinking in this manner, but even after months of play my level may have gone up but I didn't feel any significant reward or increase in skill. Meanwhile everyone around was singing the game's praises, and I thought "Is it just me? Why isn't this game fun for me? Was I doing something wrong?" When I sought help from League's notoriously toxic community the basic advice I got was "get good". Needless to say it wasn't very helpful, and one night after a particularly bad losing streak I dropped it and I haven't touched another MOBA since. I don't consider myself a bad gamer, and I'm not opposed to learning complex systems to reap reward but the element of fun never really appeared to me. Did anyone else ever feel like this? I can't be the only one.
P.S: Even after all of that time I still can't tell what the hell is happening when I try to watch competitive play. Like, at all.
I think you overthinked it significantly, instead of picking up the game and trying to get good at it you should just enjoy it, there are a lot of videos that explain the intricacies of the game since it's after all a competitive esports if you are into that, friends aren't always great coaches to learn things, I think the people you asked either had no idea either or were very poor at explaining things, there is nothing done without a purpose in this game at a top level.
You learn the meta by playing, and by seeing other play you figure out what works and what doesn't and there are a tons of videos and similar things explaining why something works and when, the fact that you aren't able to follow competitive play tells me that you lack in understanding, probably you decided you needed to get good and win before even learning the game, creating unrealistic standards will kill your fun.
You do NOT have to perform anywhere, if you don't get the fun from trying out stuff and learning what champions do and trying them out maybe the game just isn't for you.
I understand how the first impression can be overwhelming if you're not used to having to deal with such a high amount of information, but it's not like you're doing something wrong if you don't enjoy it, not all games are for everyone.
To be honest all of my friends who played with me were more focused on winning and I guess I picked up that mentality. In any case I'm not to stressed about it and now I pour all my time into Overwatch, which was much easier for me to get into.
I'm going to focus on one thing that you mentioned: do X action at Y time, without a reason. That is not really them not trying to be helpful, on the contrary they think that they are helping but don't realize that giving an order to a new player is not what you should do to teach them the game. League is a game where you need to focus on your champion first and then learn the deeper game mechanics. I persoanlly sugesst you try the support role first, as it is the most difficult role in the game to be proficient at. I get that it can be an information overload but if you start with support then you can get used to what decent players do: constantly look at the mini map and ward. Once you get used to the basic things then the other things come naturaly, simply because of how much you've played. Although if you want to understand things in greater detail I recomment the youtuber: scrapcomputer, since he goes into detail about many individual mechanics of the game along with champions.
The one moba that seems easy to get into for me at least is awesomenauts. its 2d graphics, which makes it easier to read, there are less characters, so you know who'll do what and kill you how, and the skill tree/item buy system is fairly simple to understand. I'm still crap at it, but at least I understand it, unlike league
Cameron Self What game is that? I have a really hard time learning acronyms. And I wanna try out a simplified moba, it seems interesting.
I have plenty of friends (including my brother) trying to get me to try a moba like dota or league or even smite, and this video showed me where the entertainment in the genre lies. It's a psychological game mixed with a level of skill burried under an overwhelmingly large amount of knowledge about players and game mechanics which players are almost required to memorize and tend to learn over time, much like a complex fighting game. I'm glad you guys are using these videos to highlight not only what designers did right, but also what players like about the design of the game, whether or not it was intended. Keep it up! Design club is quickly becoming my favorite new series you guys have started
Fantastic episode.
The longer length was perfect for this, though I have to say I'd love to see even longer more in depth videos from this series, even if it means they're less frequent, mixed in with some shorter ones.
Also, definitely do more on LoL, excellent game and excellent overview.
I love the show, but I would prefer longer episodes.
7:15 is already pretty long for a video of that form.
If you want it to stay consistent to its schedule, then you shouldn't ask for a longer length. Egoraptor's sequelitis videos are usually a long length, but like most of his videos, it takes forever for them to come out.
Really enjoying this series Design Club. Please keep making them.
As someone who only picked up LoL this year, I really enjoyed this. Good episode.
It's just a pity the meta is so inflexible. A bit more wiggle room would be very nice.
if you want wiggle room, try moving to dota 2 instead.
NovaStalker No, DotA is equally inflexible when you start hearing about competitive meta and realize there's very specific ways to play particular comps and characters.
Dawngate is what has wiggle room.
mega17 Dota 2 is not anything close to as inflexible as LoL is. I'll agree that Dawngate at least superficially has more wiggle room but if you're going to honestly try and compare the current meta of Dota 2 to LoL then you haven't a clue about Dota.
NovaStalker +1, but be rdy to have hard time adapting your LoL knowledge. Find somebody who is ready to help you with that
Riot's trying to implement more room for creativity with team builder and most higher elo queues don't flame you for it in the least. You might get a few frowns in ranked queue though.
This is my favortie show next to your regular extra credits. I liked how you point out things I would never notice...
CHILL FOR A MOMENT
I am a lifelong LoL player, having played since well before the update of the map
and i noticed only now that THER EIS A SMILE DRAWED ON THE MAP?!
0:43 blue side blue buff, there is a face that winks with a nose and a smile.
I came too late i guess :c
+Enrico Boccardi winkin at you from your minimap for years ;D
+Enrico Boccardi OMG UR RIGHT
I simply love your new show here. It gives a whole new insight on well known games/levels :)
I really wish you would've looked at Dota 2 instead of LoL for this example. It shows the asymmetry far more dramatically.
Because I only expect them to get into one MOBA for this. :p They ultimately share so many traits that it'd be the same message, but the differences are far more visible in Dota imo.
Trying to explain Dota 2's map to someone who doesn't play MOBAs would be monumental with all the extra things you have to think about - Shops and why there are in that place, the tree cutting items and abilites, along with some of the more specific aspects that League forgos for a less complex but still interesting and well designed game.
Basically, It might take longer than 15 minutes to explain all the extras that dota has.
I don't know if I agree with that, but ultimately that's irrelevant to this episode though.
Guess they go for the thing, more people a comfortable now, because league's playerbase is a bit bigger. Who knows.
Terker2 people in this comment section have brought up; player base size, aesthetic simplicity (by comparison) and map mechanics.
It might be a lot simpler than this though. Maybe the extra credits guys just play League more and as such are more comfortable talking about the mechanics in this level of depth, as opposed to trying to talk in depth about a game they don't understand as much.
A video on de_dust2 from the Counter Strike franchise would be amazing. As its a user created and well known map it would be really interesting to get some in depth analysis on it.
Do a Design Club about Dust II in Counter-Strike :D
Great series thus far! My one suggestion would be to include analysis with pitfalls as well as what was done right - put of what made the Skyrim opening analysis episode really good was that you pointed out not only what the designers did well, but where they could improve as well. Keep up the good work!
Can someone explain to me why so many people like this game?
As a former League player, there are three things that most people like about the game.
Number One, it's easy to get into, easy to learn, quite deep and not as complex.
Two, competition. In LoL, there is the feeling of having to fight tooth and nail to get an advantage, and it feels great to get said power advantage and press it for a double/triple kill, and then crush the enemy base.
Three, teamwork. For me, it was a good way to play with my best friend. I'd support, he would play an ADC (fragile damage character teamed with the support,) or a jungler, (explained in the video,) and coordinate attacks. Teamwork is an important part, and while the community has its problems, being on Skype tends to alleviate the problem and add that element as well.
If you're wondering why I quit, BTW, I just got tired of the metagame. I tend to flit, not commit, to a game.
Because they have fun/a good time? why the hell else.........
Jean-Michel Vaillancourt On top of that, I also believe that the characters are something that draws so many people in. I remember when I first started playing and being in love with Sona and Caitlyn just because of their aesthetics and backstory. League puts a lot of love in their characters more so than Dota in my experience. That's why we see so many more League Cosplayers than Dota ones.
MrCobrabytes I never thought of that. I loved Shyvana and Leona for how they felt rather than the aesthetics, but I do admit to buying a skin or two. Still, just never seemed to be an important part of the game to me.
Jean-Michel Vaillancourt I understand that, but those points can be applied to a lot of games, I'm talking specifically about the gameplay. I used to think this game was a "niche thing" and I just couldn't appreciate it, but everyone's fucking playing it. Maybe this genre just isn't for me.
I have played this game nearly every day after work, since it came out. The maps have changed over the years. The points that you made regarding Summoner's Rift were accurate and well thought out. Kudos on the video. :)
And aren't Dota2 map and mechanics MUCH more interesting? Same vision system but works better, warding, dewarding, spawn blocking, pulling, stacking, ganking, getting players stuck on a cliff , destroying trees and sneaking through the forest, so many places to hide, day night cycle that alters all vision, balanced asymmetry (!), cliffs for warding, RUNES. Dota map was evolving for more than a decade.
+zty82100 day/night cycle and rune mechanic has been in dota since dota 1, but yeah the layout has changed a few times now
Probably because DOTA has no meta. Which means that there is nothing to talk about in this series. Having no meta means the map has almost no influence on how players as a whole play the game. It is not even a matter of too much to cover, hell even the LOL map changed in these 2 years, just not to the point where it changed the way people interact with the map.
Anime GOD nonsense
Vladislav Kostin Way to make a point. This is a discussion so don't just say one word and act as if that somehow makes you correct. Explain.
Anime GOD I could say: "No you are wrong, and that made no sense anyway. No meta?" Its like saying there are no gameplay mechanics. There are more mechanics, there is MORE complex metagame.
I love this series. I'm so happy to see you guys expanding into the more technical realm of game design.
Your show has already encouraged me to reexamine several aspects of my own work, both in and out of the gaming industry. Thank you.
1. Aeon strife created the MOBA genre with the 3 lane system as a mod of Starcraft.
2. Steve "Guinsoo" Feak creates a mod for WC3 with a couple of others called DOTA inspired from Aeon Strife.
3. Icefrog comes in and introduces the mordern item system which revolutionizes the game and genre itself.
4. Dota becomes super popular worldwide
5. Steve and Icefrog disagree on the path the game is taking. Steve leaves and starts work on League.
6. LoL becomes hugely popular.
7. Valve hires Icefrog to create dota 2.
8. Dota 2 released and pick up greatly in popularity.
8. Fans sit and argue about which game is better while the games themselves are almost completely different in terms of mechanics and gameplay.
They are 2 very different games people. I play both. Ive competed in small time tournaments in both. Saying they are the same is like saying quake and CS are the same just coz they are both FPSs.
i can totally agree with you.
Eul created DotA. Guinsoo inherited it from him and Icefrog ingherited it from guinsoo.
Eul created DotA. Guinsoo was the lead developer in some of the most imbalanced versions ever made in the game btw...
I really really really enjoy design club. I know it takes a long time to make them because of the depth that you go into but I want more!!!! more!!! more!!! But seriously, the quality is the greatest asset of the show. Keep up the insightfulness!
You guys should look at DotA2.
Map is 100x more complex than this!
I love this show!!!
It's so incredible going deeper to the way certain mechanics, or design choices are evident in the final game.
I love love love it :D
Although this is a great episode I feel like you should have mentioned Dota 2 or at least warcraft 2 dota since that's where the map originated. Giving credit to league is unjustified in that regard. 3 lane moba's started there
I guess you mean warcraft 3? I may be wrong, but I never heard of dota starting in warcraft 2. Also btw, prior to dota, there was Aeon of Strife, in the original Starcraft ;)
The guy who created the DotA map led design on League of Legends for Riot Games. The guy who leads design of DotA 2 was the guy who kept "updated" the DotA mod map after inheriting control of it, but he didn't create it.
Also, Aeon of Strife, like Jon said.
I'm wrong on the internet what a unique audience extra creditz has no flaming just people discussing stuff
You're not wrong, I guessed it was just a typo :D
the dota map is flawed tho, being you can run anywhere and the map is massively asymmetrical rather than just having rotational symmetry it's vastly different
league of legends perfected the map, just cos dota came first does that make it better?
Interesting video :) I knew most of the things which was pointed out, but it is really nice to have a simple, yet informative video about summoner's rift. I'll definitely show this to others who wants to know about the rift, but never have tried out LoL.
inb4 DotA vs LoL
NOBODY FUCKING CARES
You seem to care enough about it enough to be the first person to bring it up.
its just so annoying since its so badly designed compared to dota
See? Because YOU brought it up, that exact discussion is starting up. Well done.
Binerexis That would've happened anyway. People who are discussing would have done so anyway.
Matt Fischer In which case, there was no point in you making your initial post. You were wasting your breath and time when you could have been doing something more productive.
The map is also why Dota is deeper than LoL.
The central River in Dota is inclined into the map, by roughly one to a half a hero's height, whie LoL's is largely the same height as everywhere else. Thus Dota's map is deeper.
nice one
so dep
so insight
As always a very well spoken and nicely put subject and video. Good job guys!
Really? LOL rift?
This level has existed long before LOL even existed....
The extra length really adds to the show, thanks for listening to us.
i like u subed!
+Jenovas Witnesses 〈Nova〉
Check the Extra History playlist, you'll probably like it ^^
Yeah haha i just did before bed and left it running xD amazing stuff man thanks for recommending this
Awesome series!
I'm eager to see more of Design Club in the future :D
Dota>LoL in every way.
I love this video series! I'm really interested in video game design and this series always makes so many good points
While I don't care for much of the LoL vs Dota arguements, I am kinda frustrated you went with the map that league of legends copied from dota, which was used and refined for 6 whole years before LoL came out. Give credit to where credit is due. Riot did not design this map.
One of the things I remember most about this map is always trying to be in the Southern spawn because of the Camera angle. There's a sense of gaining understanding of your terrain, even if only psychologically, when approaching from the South, where with the North, you're always moving in the direction the camera is technically pointed away from, leaving you feeling vulnerable. This doesn't apply to all players, but something I do remember being a constant with the group I played with.
That map wasn't designed, simply stolen from previous, better games.
dota fan boy butthurt guy, what if I told you that it actually started in a star craft mod? How far are we gonna trace back until we just realise that it's the perfected piece we're appreciating and analysing, not who came up with it first.
***** statisticly Wii Sports is the best game ever created with Minecraft in 3rd having 2x the copies of lol sold and i don't remember 2nd place so TAKE THAT
***** DONT GO RANDOMLY CURSING OR YOU MAY GET FLAGGED AS SPAM OH AND you sir are blind Read the 3 most popular game you 7 year old
***** Then go refute Minecraft instead... since minecraft.. ain't even F2P.
MEINCRAFT BEST GAM EVU
***** you deer 7 year old learn thes 3 things ! iwas talking shear numbers 2 there is no accounting for taste 3 no im polish american most polish people are worse and i am just such as i have asperger syndrome
Great episode! I could watch design breakdowns of Moba's for days. They are an incredibly dense example of solid game design dos and don'ts since you literally have 1 map to get right that will define the game for the foreseeable future.
here is what actually happened, riot found dota can be milked so they made lol (casual version of dota so they can milk kids) and since then they were lickin lol community butts with theyr patches focusing on what people wanted. who played lol in the beginning knew that there was no such thing as 1-1-2 on lanes. they didnt know what they were doing really. dominion is a good look at theyr level of creativity on level design, its a mess.
if you really want to know how summoners rift came to be what it is you shuld go to the roots, the basic idea. becouse it didnt happen in a day of writing on a white board. its a growing thing.
These analysis vids are great, keep it up! :)
DotA did this first.
Technically, Starcraft did.
Hurr Durr technically, WoW did it before all o' yaz
Bio Spec Preach it brother!
Loving this new show. Its great so far an i like how you are doing new games as well as old ones. I wouldnt mind you guys doing an episode about bad design either but i guess you wouldnt want to directly attack someones work.
Either way, cant wait for the next episode!
Try DOTA, this is a copy of that game.
I've never played LoL and don't intend to, but even so, it's incredibly interesting to see how such seemingly simple design choices can affect so much. Designing D&D games a lot, any information about drawing attention to certain kinds of designs is useful, and I think this series is off to a great start.
League is great. I don't know why people keep talking about Dota.
They both have their strengths and weaknesses. League of Legends has had more time to refine their game and have such a large community to help them out. Thus, making it the superior experience, for now, at least in my opinion.
well dota2 is gaining a lot of momentum and has a massive playerbase by now (though still not as large as lols)
as a person that played lol quite a lot and then switched back to dota2 when they started inviting for beta i must say that the reason i started playing lol in the first place was because it was a dota clone with proper controls and was just more accessible and better looking compared to the anchient dota based on wc3 tft.
in the end i think there is room for both games on the market.
to adress your question i think its usual with things where you need a lot of investment that you'll gain a certain loyalty to the product sparking "conlfict" kinda like with consoles.
fact from my friend who play LoL then DotA he said after some game he said "F**K im play LoL again" DotA is HQ red wine and LoL is good time Coca Cola. its has different taste.
If you there wasn't dota you would never have league, so shut your mouth
BeingShotAt Maybe if you weren't such a dumbass maybe I would. Like fuck off dude lol.
Awesome.
I love the way you break down the things we overlook as players
This is awesome, i love these shows and enjoy the longer format, don't stop making these!
Just curious though why you chose league over day dota. There's more asymmetry, and deeper laning options, and a few more mechanics.
Really though enjoyed the longer episode. A show like this should be longer than 3-5 minutes
I really like this format. The design episodes where always my favorite, and taking some more time to explain a specific scenario in depth, really adds to the regular show. However I would enjoy some sort of 'homework assignment' before the release of this kind of show. Maybe announce what 'we' would be studying this week (?) and give a pointer, so we could try to figure some things you mention out in advance. It would deepen my experience i think.
I like this segment even more than the main show! I've always been fascinated by this sort of psychological design, and how the mechanics and level affect the player without directly telling them what to do.
Another awesome episode. It was nice to go from an incredibly simple single player experience like Mario to a very complex multiplayer team game like LoL, just to demonstrate how the external elements of design influence the *way* a level is played, rather than focusing explicitly on what each individual building block tells the player in and of itself.
I'd be really interested to see an episode focusing on a less gameplay-driven example of level design, where the elements of, say, a level in a horror game help to reinforce the tone and atmosphere.
Great analysis. Really look forward to more Design Club shows :)
This show is awesome. I only hope/assume there will be episodes about mechanics and other elements of design other than level design.
I am 100% ready for the 2 hour special of the Design Club's planet Zebes design/evolution analysis.
As an avid League of Legends player, this episode, and others like it, deeply fascinates me. I'd love to see more on the map itself, and how/why you think the meta game evolved around it.
Still love this show the best out of all of them. Hoping it becomes A) more commonly updated or B) longer per episode.
Getting us to think about specific elements in maps and levels is incredibly useful. Being instructed in how to think about existing games is a skill rarely taught, and despite its obvious utility in game design, it adds a new perspective to what many of us once found familiar.
If there was one thing that may detract from these episodes so far, it's the lack of a formula. In the first episode, we had a step by step walkthough of what it's like to play the level. In this, we had a sort of smorgasbord of different ideas about the map - it didn't feel as unified as an episode because of that.
Now, obviously you need to change up the format as appropriate to each game examined, but I feel like establishing what sorts of things you're going to cover in each game would be helpful. We could spend HOURS on each of these maps, BUT when you went through just the individual events in 1-1, even though you didn't complete the map, that video felt unified and complete. In this video, I finished not really knowing how much I got from it. Maybe that's a function of my being dumb - I've only watched the video once, but my intuition is that the topics covered seemed to switch from the rules of the game itself to the higher concept of complexity through geometry back to the progression of a game. I think if you found a way to make these topics more predictable at the outset, we could better absorb their importance, and each episode could feel better as a result.
This is a strange and subtle critique I feel. But although there's a great multitude of topics I'd like to be covered (strategy game maps in particular), I feel you have a great mastery of picking interesting subjects. I hope the critique provokes some thought. Can't wait for the next episode!
This was a great episode! I don't really play league but I do appreciate what a finely tuned and balanced game it is. I found the visuals (I.e. The map overlays) to be very helpful in dissecting the map as a whole.
The hidden nature of the Jungler kind of reminds me of a key principle in German board game design. The inclusion of secretive elements which could surface at any moment and totally shift the balance of play unexpectedly helps to keep everything feel competitive no matter how big a disadvantage you seem to be at.
I love this show.
Personally, I want to see Super Smash Brothers Melee analyzed. There's SO much to go over, it has amazing depth and is very intuitive, and a kicking competitive scene.
Smash is fundamentally different compared to most fighting games, and I feel that talking about it would go along nicely with EC's recent video about fighting games, especially since it does break that 'difficult to learn' mold and memorization pattern of so many.
Great show guys! One idea that might be useful would be to focus an episode on a broad level design topic like "steering/guiding players" then show examples of different games and how they accomplished it via lighting, geometry, sound, events, etc.
This new show is fascinating! Please keep them coming.
Not a fan of the genre, but there is a lot to learn from this level of depth. Keep it up Extra Credits team! I'd love to see an episode on 3D platformers, or how to teach players in an "open-world" setting :)
On a tangential note, IIRC if you picked up the Orange Box there was an option to turn on developer commentary for HL2 and Episodes 1 and 2, and there were a lot of these really fascinating insights. I think it would be great if more developers did these sort of things.
This is a great show. Literally my only qualm is that it can't be more often but hey, you gotta do what you gotta do. If the choice is this show every two weeks or not at all, I'd go with every two weeks in a second. Keep up the awesomeness.
I like the longer format. I could listen to you explain stuff for even longer too.
Can't think of any real criticism though. Good job.
Very much enjoyed this video! Would love to see you guys do more on league.