@@ariapimp5931 haha :D well i don't think they're any more of a cult than mainstream christian churches are.... but i do love coffee so i guess there's no hope for me^^
I know Christians from other denominations who are happy and positive all time, even though they believe in original sin, because they have faith in the Atonement of Jesus Christ, so they believe what Psalm 32:1 says: “Happy is the one whose transgression is pardoned, whose sin is covered”.
Orson Scott Cards book, The Worthing Sagas, is an excellent explanation of the thought that we can't truly appreciate joy and happiness without feeling pain and suffering! Really good book by the way!
Saints Unscripted I am a member of the Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter-Day Saints and I love y’alls conversion story’s. It’s nice to find Channels like this one which are clean.
2:19 you asked to be corrected if wrong. Minor correction but huge implication. Eve wasn't the one who caused the fall. It wasn't her transgression that plunged mankind into spiritual, it was Adam. He was the one that God commanded not to eat from that specific tree as the leader between him and his wife. Eve was tempted, but Adam disobeyed. Romans 5:12 teaches us that "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned". That sinner was Adam. His disobedience caused sin to enter the world and death through sin struck all his descendants according to this passage. We see this more in Genesis 3:17-19 "Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’; Cursed is the ground because of you; with hard labor you shall eat from it all the days of your life.18 Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; Yet you shall eat the [b]plants of the field; 19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, until you return to the ground, because from it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.” it's all there in Bible, just need to read it.
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. Romans 6:1-2 To the woman He said: “I will sharply increase your pain in childbirth; in pain you will bring forth children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.” And to Adam He said: “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten from the tree of which I COMMANDED you not to eat, cursed is the ground because of you; through toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. Genesis 3:16-17 It doesn't sound to me like God thinks these are good things just because it allowed for his grace (which would not be needed without it anyway). As for joy resulting from sin, that's like saying "Yeah drugs are bad but without them, you wouldn't get to feel high." Nor does it sound like it was just a suggestion not to eat the fruit, seeing as how He said he commanded them not to. I love and agree with most LDS beliefs and I know you have extra scripture this comes from but you also have the Bible which flat out contradicts this.
Interesting. I’m not a LDS member, but I’ve been researching your beliefs as unbiased and respectful as possible. If you guys believe that “we wouldn’t be here” had our original parents not sinned, how do you explain God’s commandment at Genesis 1:28, when, still being in perfection, God commanded them “Be fruitful, become many and fill the earth”?
I'm not LDS either, so I'm not going to answer for them. But I wanted to point out that your example is not a command. It's a benediction, a blessing(It says "he blessed them and said..."), telling them they have permission and approval to multiply, and can expect to be successful in the attempt. Not all imperatives are commands. Multiplication seems to be Gods prerogative in Gen 30:2
Hi Jose, Very good question and they lightly toughed on it, but it is good to explain it in more detail. God did give them the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth, but do we know that they understood what that meant from the beginning? We have evidence in the scriptures that they did not for they didn't know that they were naked. If they didn't even know they were naked, they would not have known how to multiply and replenish the earth. In Genesis 3 starting at verse 7, right after they ate of the forbidden fruit it says, "7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. 8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden. 9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. 11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?" So it is evident from the scriptures that God knew that they would not know they were naked until they had eaten of the fruit. He knowingly gave them a commandment that they couldn't fulfill until they partook of that fruit! It was Eve who was the first to understand that they could not keep both commandments. She and later Adam chose to become human (and therefore be subject to death), in order to learn the difference between good and evil, and also to have children. This is why we do not see Eve as screwing up Father's plan, she fulfilled it! She, and Adam, are to be praised, not chastised for the choice they made. Consider this point. If Father is all knowing (Omniscient), why would he place an object that would mess up His whole plan in His children's reach and tell them not to use it? He had to know they would eat of it as he is all knowing! It is impossible that He did not know! Yet He still placed it in the garden. It is like a parent placing a bowl of Skittles in the center of the table and telling the kids not to eat any and then walking out of the room! How long before they attack the Skittles? It was part of Father's plan that they eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. But because Father will not force anyone to do anything against their will, He needed them to choose that path for themselves. We are grateful they did for that is the only way we also get to learn the difference between good and evil. We are here to learn the same things that Adam and Eve learned. And we have kids for the same reasons they did. It is all part of a loving Father's plan.
We all have that commandment to multiply and replenish the earth but we also have the 10 commandments stating there is a time and place to do that and it is within marriage. Great discussion.
@@oldcowboy3367 this was very well said, however I'm an LDS convert and I've observed that what you said falls into the whole "Take the bad and flip it into something good" basically seeing the glass half full. Alot of LDS members do things thing called "REACHING" meaning your taking something that wasn't directly stated, but kinda did a bit of bending inorder for it to fit your narrative, kinda like In Isiah where in a verse it says something along the lines of whispering from the ground, which we take is as "the golden plates being buried" It's too vague to debunk or prove. I digress. What you said just throws us back into the loop of the fact that "IT WAS A COMMANDMENT NOT TO DO SO" God hates when we sin, especially disobey, I believe he would've approached the situation differently or just like children, Adam and Eve would have observed the way animals procreated and well "acted it out on each other" because remember they were innocent children, and they would think as such, Another point you said about God wanting them to choose that path, Then why curse humanity with labor pains, us men having do hard work to live, until we die ect. It doesn't line up. I end by saying, I'm not here to debunk your point but to just show how many different prospectives this topic has been looked at throughout the thousands of years of Christianity. We can't understand how God thinks, even if we tried to look at behavior patterns, it goes like this: God gives rules/instructions People disobey God curses them God instructs someone to help those cursed people Ect with some variations I personally belive that God's plan was affected, however due to how great he is, it always works, Just like how the enemy try to separate us with different denominations, it will still work out, but of the commandment: Love Thy Neighbor.
Hi@@aderesthompson , I love your comments, and welcome to our religious community. To the idea of us being willing to "bend" scriptures to fit what we believe, I plead guilty! Now I do believe that those scriptures really do intend to say what we suggest they say, but because of translations and changing relationships between words, it is hard to see the original intent. So, we do have to bend ideas and words to get them to meet. We are not alone in this desire. Most all religions struggle to see their doctrine well defined in ancient scripture. Not to cause contention, but to simply show the concept, the doctrine of a Trinity is not in the Bible. The word is not there. Likewise, the Rapture is not found, though scriptures are used to describe it. They can be demonstrated with the use of more vague passages, but they still have to "bend" the words to get them to fit. Ok, now to your comment that "it still was a commandment." I appreciate your perspective on Adam and Eve as children. It makes sense, and I don't fault you for holding to it. However, please permit me to offer another one. I view Adam and Eve as having come to the realization that in order to fulfill the commandments, they were to eat of the fruit and become mortal. They made a choice, not just an impulsive sin. Since you already have a testimony of the Book of Mormon, I am free to use a scripture or two from that miracle book. 2 Nephi 2:22 - 25, "And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end. And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin. But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things. Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy." Such a deep understanding of the gospel. Why curse humanity with pain and force us to labor? So that we may learn to fully appreciate joy! One cannot know that something is sweet without having tasted bitter. That is why Father created a world with "Opposition in all things." That we may learn the Good from the Evil. Without each we cannot choose. God knew they would fall. He intended that they fall. So that, by choice, they could bring His children into mortality. By the way, this is not new doctrine. They had it in the days of the Old Testament, and they had it in the days of the New. But you have to read the Apocrypha to find it. If the Apocrypha make you uncomfortable, I only intend to show that these ideas have been held from antiquity. You don't have to believe they are scripture.
In the LDS framework, do people not have original sin because of the Atonement? Or is the lack of original sin predate the atonement? The reason I ask is because I'm not sure what it is Christ's atonement actually accomplishes in an LDS framework. Or is it that his sacrifice allows for the sins we commit ourselves to be forgiven freely? Also, how would you compare the lack of original sin with the Pelagian heresy? (I use heresy as a reference, not as me personally condemning it as so) I would really love an LDS response to this because I genuinely want your perspective if you feel led to respond.
Lack of original sin predates the atonement (tho the atonement is omnipresent in all times), we believe the atonement was to bring about the exhalation and salvation of men. Had it not been for the atonement, no men would be able to achieve perfection, and no imperfect thing can reside in the kingdom of god. Through the atonement, Christ took upon himself the sins of the world, and the punishment Theron (in the garden of Gathsemene, mormons believe Christ felt all pain that every man has ever felt, as well as taking upon himself the punishment of every sin ever repented for). Because of this we can repent, and if we can repent, our wickedness can be washed away. We will never achieve perfection, however we are ALWAYS progressing (as our purpose on this earth was to progress) and Tho we will never achieve perfection in this life, Christ’s grace is sufficient for the next (the spirit world) in the spirit world we will have a perfect knowledge of all the good and evil we have committed, and AGAIN receive opportunity to repent. It is through Christ’s grace alone that we are saved, after all we can do. Christ did not atone for those who refuse to repent, they will receive punishment for their own sins and receive according to their works in the final judgement. No man will be perfect, we will all make mistakes, and some mistakes we may deep down be unremorcful for, but through Christ’s grace our wickedness can be cleansed. It all goes back to the mormon concept of the 3 degrees of glory (how all are saved through Christ’s grace, however Christ’s grace saves people at different degrees depending on how they chose to use it(his grace)). But I won’t get into that as ive already write a long incoherent essay that probably has tons of grammar mistakes, as I’m writing this at 1am.
The very concept of God issuing self-contradictory commandments ("Partake not of the fruit if the tree of knowledge", and, "Multiply and replenish the earth") would bother most rational people and give rise to serious skepticism about a faith that believes that!
What I don’t understand tho, is if the fall was a good thing, then why did Satan HELP god by orchestrating it? In the temple account of the creation, Lucifer says he only did what was done on other worlds. He knows that the fall was necessary for the progress of mankind, so if that’s the case, then why did he assist in bringing it about? Why did he help god? Perhaps not because he was helping god, but because his arrogance leads him to believe that if he assists in the fall he would be able to lead more spirits away from god?
Why does the "plan" require Adam & Eve to eat of the fruit? The only thing I can think of, is that in LDS theology Adam and Eve did not know how to procreate, without partaking of the tree of knowledge? The second part that I am struggling to get is how God can be considered good if God placed Adam and Eve in an untenable position where they either disobey god by not procreating, or by eating of the fruit? I went back and reviewed the Biblical text on this topic, and I can not find anything that indicates that Adam and Eve did not know how to procreate (or evidence that they knew how to procreate) the bible is silent on this topic. Does the LDS church have any scripture that addresses if Adam & Eve had the knowledge on how to procreate? The concept of original sin is a core doctrine of most Christian churches, and how the LDS church handles this topic with the 2nd Article of Faith is unique. From a Biblical perspective, the reason Jesus was born into this world without sin is that his Father is God, not a man that originated from Adam. (Romans 5:12-21).
@Saints Unscripted.....“Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned” (Romans 5:12). The effects of the Fall are numerous and far reaching. Sin has affected every aspect of our being. It has affected our lives on earth and our eternal destiny. One of the immediate effects of the Fall was that mankind was separated from God. In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve had perfect communion and fellowship with God. When they rebelled against Him, that fellowship was broken. They became aware of their sin and were ashamed before Him. They hid from Him (Genesis 3:8-10), and man has been hiding from God ever since. Only through Christ can that fellowship be restored, because in Him we are made as righteous and sinless in God’s eyes as Adam and Eve were before they sinned. “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21). Because of the Fall, death became a reality, and all creation was subject to it. All men die, all animals die, all plant life dies. The “whole creation groans” (Romans 8:22), waiting for the time when Christ will return to liberate it from the effects of death. Because of sin, death is an inescapable reality, and no one is immune. “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23). Worse still, we not only die, but if we die without Christ, we experience eternal death. Another effect of the Fall is that humans have lost sight of the purpose for which they were created. Man’s chief end and highest purpose in life is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever (Romans 11:36; 1 Corinthians 6:20; 1 Corinthians 10:31; Psalm 86:9). Hence, love to God is the core of all morality and goodness. The opposite is the choice of self as supreme. Selfishness is the essence of the Fall, and what follows are all other crimes against God. In all ways sin is a turning in upon oneself, which is confirmed in how we live our lives. We call attention to ourselves and to our good qualities and accomplishments. We minimize our shortcomings. We seek special favors and opportunities in life, wanting an extra edge that no one else has. We display vigilance to our own wants and needs, while we ignore those of others. In short, we place ourselves upon the throne of our lives, usurping God’s role. When Adam chose to rebel against his Creator, he lost his innocence, incurred the penalty of physical and spiritual death, and his mind was darkened by sin, as are the minds of his successors. The apostle Paul said of pagans, “Since they do not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, He gave them over to a depraved mind” (Romans 1:28). He told the Corinthians that “the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so that they cannot see the light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God” (2 Corinthians 4:4). Jesus said, “I have come into the world as a light so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness” (John 12:46). Paul reminded the Ephesians, “You were once in darkness but now you are in the light of the Lord” (Ephesians 5:8). The purpose of salvation is “to open the eyes [of unbelievers] and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God” (Acts 26:18). The Fall produced in humans a state of depravity. Paul spoke of those “whose consciences are seared” (1 Timothy 4:2) and those whose minds are spiritually darkened as a result of rejecting the truth (Romans 1:21). In this state, man is utterly incapable of doing or choosing that which is acceptable to God, apart from divine grace. “The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so” (Romans 8:7). Without the supernatural regeneration by the Holy Spirit, all men would remain in their fallen state. But in His grace, mercy and loving-kindness, God sent His Son to die on the cross and take the penalty of our sin, reconciling us to God and making eternal life with Him possible. What was lost at the Fall is reclaimed at the Cross.
I can't think of anything Satan would want more than for humans to think the Fall is a good thing... "Woe unto them who call good evil and evil good"--Isaiah 5:20
Mormonism is inherently an upside down religion. Like all other world religions, it distorts the truth of God in ways that are absolutely unimaginable to comprehend. You should pray for Mormons that God would grant them repentance and new eyes to see the horrific web of lies they are caught up in.
You need the Holy Ghost to understand the things of God, just study and reasoning alone is not enough to understand and see things correctly the way God sees them... You cannot see from an eternal perspective without the Holy Ghost.... The Church works like the Liahona does, God gives instructions and directions from time to time things that is why things will change, just as the directions on the ball changed from time to time to direct Lehi and his family in the wilderness.
the one and only eternal Jesus Christ suffered and died for the sins of the world sin is not something to say "thank you" for "Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter." Isaiah 5:20 NIV
To be clear the LDS church does believe in the original sin of Adam and Eve. The difference is that we understand that the punishment or curse for that sin was placed upon the land and not upon the people. In other words because of that sin all mankind is born into an inhospitable world, where man is more likely to fall into sinful tendencies, not that man is sinful at birth, because of Adam's sin. and Technically speaking the Atonement did in fact make up for the fallen world and all it's many faults and issues that we would have to account for and be subjected to during this life. so the LDS understanding is really not that far different than the Mainstream understanding. The biggest difference is that mainstream Christianity sees the Fall as a bad thing assuming that procreation and agency were still very much present in that pre-fallen world. Therefore, if Adam had not sinned, it isn't that we wouldn't be alive, but that we would still be living in that perfect world. This is only hearsay and is not substantiated by any scripture. The reality is that if the Fall of man was not included as part of God's design and plan for us then there would have been no point in already appointing Jesus as the savior of the world even from before the foundations of the world were laid. As we are taught it was definitely a set downward in glory, but was also a step forward to a greater glory than we other wise could have had if the fall had not happened in the first place. In this life we are made a little lower than the angels, but know you not that we are called to judge those angels?! Due to us being less than the angels for a short time, we grow and become more like God than those angels whom we are called to judge in the end, because they never experienced what we have in this mortal life.
Children don't come naturally to good character traits, they are taught and learned, therefore we are born with sin. Its just that we don't reach understanding of it til we are able to understand
@@donna-marie1936 you are not born with sin. you are born with a tendency to sin. it doesn't mean you have to sin, it means that because of your tendencies, brought on by this fallen world, the likelihood of you sinning is exponentially higher. one might even say inevitable. we should not conflate the inevitability of sinning with the idea that we have sinned already, just by being born. we und up with a skewed perspective of our nature and potential if we make that mistake.
Hi Patrick, I don't read in the JKV where He said it was "bad". He just said not to eat it. He also told them why He gave the commandment. In fact, if you read it precisely, it wasn't a commandment, it was a teaching moment. In modern English it might read something like this, "Now don't eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because it's poison. If you do you will die." And to their eternal bodies it was poison, and they did die in the day they ate of it (which to God is 1000 of our years).
Guys on this video you say that you don’t believe in the concept of original sin but simply that you have agency but it’s a big problem because that contradicts biblical scripture. Romans 5:12 “That is why just as through one man (Adam) sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned.” That’s a big difference from what you are saying here. That scripture is telling us that we do inherit original sin through Adams transgression and disobedience. Also when you say that of Adam hadn’t sinned you wouldn’t be here, that’s not true Cos at Genesis 1:28 God says “Be fruitful and become many and full the Earth.” So Gods plan was for Adam and Eve to reproduce and fill the earth. I have a lot of respect for you guys but you cannot just cherry pick bible verses that fit Mormon teaching and then completely overlook other verses that teach something different. The idea that we owe thanks to Adam and Eve is an outrageous Idea. Had Adam been obedient we’d all be living right now as perfect human beings free of disease and we’d have eternal life. Yet instead we live in a world full of disease poverty and troubles. That’s hardly a reason to be thanking Adam and Eve.
God the Father is Omniscient and knows of all things before they even happen, so he knew of everything and that's why he let the devil in to cause the Fall for God knew what would happen before they even ate the fruit and Fell for without eating of the fruit they could not bear children not having knowledge of good and evil. So a change had to come over their bodies to make them first mortal so they could bear children because without eating of the fruit of good and evil they could not bear children, so eating of the fruit brought about that change. Which God confirmed the change when he said to Adam after eating of the fruit, Behold the man has become like one of us to know good and evil.
@@germanslice I don't agree with the interpretation that you have just provided here because if you have read the bible properly you should have noticed that even though Yahweh has the ability to foresee future events there are many instances in which he doesn't choose to exercise this foresight. To prove my point Genesis 6:5,6 "Yahweh saw that the badness of man was abundant in the earth and every inclination of the thoughts of his heart were only bad all the time. And Yahweh felt REGRET that he had made men In the earth, and he felt hurt at his heart." So that scripture describes God has regretting that he had created mankind on the earth. Now if he had foreseen this regret, tell me, why would he have then gone on to create them? He wouldn't have. So this proves that God does not always choose to use his foresight. Another example of this is when he chose Saul to be king of Israel yet following sauls disobedience tells Samuel the prophet that he now regrets that he had made Saul The king of Israel. The fact that Yahweh is described as regretting certain decisions he had made demonstrates that although he does have prophetic foresight, that he only uses it in certain circumstances. Don't be gullible and believe the heresy of the LDS Church. Most of the things they teach are a massive departure from bible doctrine. There is already ample proof out there that Joseph Smith was a con man and what kind of reasonable man will ignore proof?
Many of the things the latter-day saints do teach are from the bible and are in harmony with bible doctrine its the Christians who don't understand the scriptures. because they give many different interpretations of the same passage of scripture and this is why there is so much confusion and so many different doctrines taught on the same scripture in the christian world Is all a big mess.... The Problem the Christians seem to have that I been noticing is that many of them are just arm chair commentators siting on the sidelines sitting as judges telling other people in other religions how to live the gospel of Jesus Christ because they are not living the basic principles of the gospel themselves so they go around telling others how to live the gospel. But you can't live the gospel vicariously through other people. You have to be living the basics of the gospel yourself to gain a testimony of the truth to know whether the doctrine is of God or not and that is what we teach in the church, nobody can live on the borrowed light of others. Each must have their own testimony of the gospel. I have a testimony of the gospel and a testimony also of God.
germanslice Well that’s great if you have a testimony that you can put your trust in. This aspect of LDS is not something I know much of because the idea of personal testimony seems more unique to that church. I’m actually a Jehovah’s Witness which is a branch of Christianity but there is much that we an mainstream Christianity disagree about. But all I’m saying is that it seems self evident that God does not always choose to use his foresight. Reading the bible makes this clear. After taking the kingdom out of king Solomon’s hand due to his idolatry, God chose Jeroboam to be the next king of Israel, only to be betrayed by Jeroboam who also filled the nation of Israel with more idolatry. Had God used his foresight to foresee Jeroboams idolatry then he would have chosen somebody else instead of Jeroboam, a man that misled Gods people into committing idolatry. So God does have foresight I agree, but it’s self evident in scripture that he only uses it under certain circumstances which is why your interpretation of the events surrounding the garden of Eden don’t stand up. After all, God brought punishment upon Satan for what he did by making him the most cursed of the creatures of the ground. Why would he punish something if he had used it in order to fulfill his will. It’s wacky reasoning. All I’m doing here is been logical. Mormons seem like nice people but they have got themselves caught up in a web of spiritual fantasy.
You need to realize that the Holy Ghost is the teacher of the things of God and he communicates to us by feelings. It is biblical doctrine to receive feelings from the Holy Ghost to testify of the things of God. There is an incident showing what its like to feel of the Holy Ghost when truth is testified to the two disciples in Luke 24:32 They were receiving revelation from God through the Holy Ghost. The Intellect alone cannot reveal this kind of Knowledge from heaven, only the Holy Ghost is able to reveal it... That is why Jesus said 'Blessed art thou son of Jonah for man has not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who art in heaven' The Father reveals the truth by the power of the Holy Ghost from heaven to our spirits to know what the truth is.. This is the same biblical pattern the Latter-day Saints use to testify of truth which they describe by the burning in the bossom or swelling warm feelings which bring peace and joy and happiness comes from God and that is the Spirit of the Lord and it comes to us not as a loud but as a still small voice as if it was a whisper. Those who are born of the Spirit, the spirit comes and goes like the wind. (1 Kings 19:12, Johh 3:8) and it speaks peace to our minds and hearts.
I find it ironic God created that fruit tree and all good things come from Him yet at the same time Adam and Eve were forbidden to partake of that tree
Lehi's comments should be understood to be in the context of eve having fallen and imminently cast out of the garden. Adam would have remained in the garden and separated from Eve because she would have been cast out. So Lehis comments are not about how Adam and eve had to fall. It was about how eve's choice put Adam in the situation where he had to fall to remain with eve and fulfill the commandment to multiply. As far as speculation goes, I think adam and eve were raised and taught by God that the time for them to become mortal would come one day when the time was right. They were to wait for the one authorized to give them of the fruit of teh tree of knowledge of good and evil which was Christ. However Satan came symbolically represented as the serpent, which we know from Moses and the Brazen was actually a symbol of the Christ and good, before Satan perverted it and sullied it. Yet even in Moses time, Christ persisted in using the symbol to represent himself or jehovah. Anyway, when it says that Satan came in the form of a serpent I think it means that came bearing the outward or appearances of authority, ie the Christ, the one authorized to give them the fruit. Adam didnt fall for it but Eve did. Now they were in a predicament and all Adam could do to keep the remaining commandments and to take care of eve and help here, was to partake of the fruit as well and start, albeit prematurely, the path into mortality. and so today the adversary will often use good symbols to make his evil appear legitimate and trustworthy. the swastika was a symbol for excellence and the best, before the national socialist party under Adolph Hitler turned it into a symbol of hatred and centralized power of the state. The upside down pointed stars we all so often associate with satan worship were ancient holy symbols used by israel for good. Thats why the nauvoo temple has them, because in the final dispensation Christ is reclaiming all things that are his and setting things back as they were before.
If the fall was a good thing and was meant to kick off God’s plan of salvation then why would the serpent who is Satan have tried to deceive eve? Wouldn’t he have wanted them not to fall so the plan of salvation was never kicked off?
Satan wanted to next get them to eat from the tree of life and live forever in their sins so they would be in his control forever with no chance at redemption. Problem was, God showed up and short circuited Satan's plan by casting them out of the garden so they couldn't eat from the tree and would have a lifetime to work on getting back into Gods presence with Christs help.
@Muchemwa Sichone That's not correct. They could not bear children before the Fall because they didn't have the knowledge of good and evil in order to know how to have children. They were innocent before the Fall. God had stepped aside himself to let the Fall happen for he knew what he was doing when he caused them to Fall in order to come to that knowledge to carry out his commandment to multiply and replendish the earth once they ate the fruit.. God may have blessed them to multiply before the Fall, but it could not come about until they actually ate the fruit to give them the knowledge. So God brought opposition into the world because without having good and evil, there can be no agency or growth or experiences and they would remain in their innocent state without knowing of good and evil and the plan of God would have been all frustrated and come to naught and his words to bless and to multiply made all void God cannot deny his word once its been said, this is why God stepped aside to make the Fall happen to fulfill his words.. That is why after the fruit was eaten, God later said, behold, the man has become like one of us to know good and evil. How can a Holy God know good and evil unless he has also experienced making choices between good and evil like his son Jesus did when the devil came to him to tempt him to do evil many times and Jesus resisted and chose good, he had the ability to choose evil but he didn't, so being tempted to do evil as Jesus was by the devil is not a sin for he did not give into the temptation but resisted...So even a sinless man like Jesus who had knowledge of good and evil suffered temptations of every kind. So in order to have moral agency and spiritual growth and experiences there must be good and evil to choose between to exercise that agency that God has given to man. This is how God tutors us to choose the good and to overcome the evil. There must be opposites.
@@germanslice I see no philosophical or religious reason why the fall was necessary to have children. The idea that unless you know evil you can't procreate makes no sense.
@@denisewhite11385 this is helpful to understand this doctrine. Could you share with me where you find this in doctrine? I'm studying this currently. thanks!
I really hope one day you all escape the control of that cult. Honestly, if someone from your group knocked on my door and ACTUALLY said what you guys believe, i would think someone escaped from the loonie bin and would call the authorities. I mean actually broke down everything.... it’s insane you guys. Your thoughts have been controlled so much that you can’t see through it and it’s sad. I hope one day you break the cults claws and can have your freedom back. One day...:
Hi Drew, Thank you for your desire for me to see how I've been controlled. I appreciate your genuine concern. My question for you is, what if our "insane" teachings are actually the truth. Then who is the insane one? While I recognize our teachings may differ considerably from those of other faiths, they teach us to be kind, to love our fellowmen and women, to care for those in need, and to strive to be better humans each day. How insane is that?
Man was sinless before the fall.Sin entered the world at the fall.Sin entered into the relationship between man and God at the fall.Before the fall there was no sin between Man and God.Man and God were in perfect fellowship before the fall. All of creation was created to glorify God.We were created to glorify God.No good comes from disobedience.Disobedience does not glorify God.To believe that through disobedience the plan to become like God was set into motion, is hogwash.We cannot become like God.We are created beings.God can't sin.He never could sin.We were created to bring glory to God.The greatest "progression" you folks could make is to learn that NO SIN DOES NOT BENEFIT YOU.....IT BRINGS DEATH.... SPIRITUAL DEATH. Which is what entered the world at the fall. Oh I'm hungry so I steal bread....yes that is sin but life comes from it. NO NO NO But.....to trust God(because You know Him) to provide for your hunger because You honor Him and will not compromise....this brings glory to God ....this is what is good and trustworthy....this is what God has looked for all along........Man does not live by bread alone......all the rather......it is every word that proceeds from the mouth of God that brings life.
Behold, the man has become like one of us to know good and evil. That was after eating of the fruit. God approved of it because it was his plan to cause man to fall into a world of opposition and sin, why? Because man could not progress to become like God by any other way. . The whole point of becoming like God the Father is to obtain the same kind of body that he has. For God has a glorified celestial resurrected body. In order to get that man has to be plunged into a world of sin and opposition and then through using his agency and faith learn to overcome that fallen world to triumph above all things through relying on the Savior and on prophets which the Father would send to show us how to live the laws of God as taught in the church and then receive the same body in the resurrection that God the Father has. That's what we believe of the gospel of Jesus Christ. This plan was ordained by God in the council of heaven. Jesus showed this by his own example. through his own obedience to the Father's commandments for he was resurrected to the same body as the Father himself has. But Jesus went from grace to grace until he finally inherited all of the fulness of the Father after the resurrection took place because he did not have the fullness of the Father at first but obtained it gradually over time and so Jesus increased in wisdom and statute and knowledge even though he was born sinless..He went from grace to grace. For the Father is a resurrected being also. Otherwise Jesus could not see what his Father does and follow his own Father's example, or teach the Father's LAWS AND DOCTRINES to the people if the Father was not a Heavenly KING with a system of laws and goverment in place in heaven.. Or be lifted up to the Father's power and glory in the Resurrection if the Father was not a tangible separate resurrected being also himself. The very fact that the Father has got laws and commandments and that Jesus teaches nothing but the Father's Doctrine and Will powerfully indicates that the Father is a tangible separate resurrected being a king, and a ruler.... Neither could Ezekiel have seen God the Father sitting up on his throne in heaven if he was not a tangible Resurrected Being when the veil was parted open for him to see into heaven where God the Father was sitting on his throne in heaven because God the Father is a Heavenly King and he has laws and rules and commandments. Jesus said I do nothing of myself but by what I seeth the Father do that I do also......Its so obvious the Father can be seen because he is a separate being from Christ.. Neither could the information that the Father knew about the time when he would send his Son to the planet at the Second Coming be witheld from Jesus and also from all the Angels and from Man if the Father was not a separate entity from the Son and from the Holy Ghost for the Father has got a separate will from them and lives up and dwells in heaven and rules up there. Were it not so he could not withold certain things from the rest of the Godhead. Were it not so then Jesus would not be teaching all the laws of his Father in order to inherit his Father's kingdom. The Church of JESUS CHRIST of latter-day Saints do not accept a three persons inside one person god Trinity. But we believe in a Trinity instead of three seperate persons operating together as one unit or one high council of heaven known as the Godhead. Or What we call the Council of Heaven in the church....
Bad Nomad It isn’t silly, it was the ordained way for man to become mortal, fragile, and capable of manifesting weakness, in order to improve and grow.
If Adam’s choice to partake of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was such a terrible sin why didn’t God ever call Adam to repent of it? Why is there absolutely no record of Adam or Eve repenting of that “sin?” Additionally, instead of Adam having some type of punishment spiritually, like David did, God instead provides a Savior and Redeemer for him as a free gift?
There is enough recorded to understand it was a sin--God is certainly angry, calls them out for the sin, and describes the punishments. There was a spiritual punishmnent; it was separation from God.
C Book that is nonsense. It is not recorded anywhere and you know it. Biblical Fraud Christianity provides all the speculation that you justify such an argument but it is nowhere suggested that Adam’s transgression was a sin.
Your evidence is an absence of an explicit call to repent. And a claim that there was no spiritual punishment despite clear evidence of being kicked out of the garden. Sounds like you’re the one speculating beyond what is in the text. Paul interpreted Adam’s action for us and it doesn’t line up with your statements.
How do these young people read the account of the fall, (GENESIS ch:3), and believe sin is God's will, a good thing, and thank Adam and Eve?. As a Christian it deeply grieves me to hear these young Mormons speaking blasphemy, ( that God wanted Adam and Eve to sin, and that it was good and necessary, and even crucial to our happiness. This truly ghastly theology came from the mind of one of one man, Mormonism's founder Joseph Smith. Simply put, absolutely everything that they said in this video was wrong, and the opposite of what the Bible actually teaches. This is yet another example of he many many irreconcilable differences between Mormonism and Biblical Christianity. These young Mormons are part of Joseph Smith's dreadful legacy of religious deception masquerading as Christianity that he left to the world.
And Gpd is against all the Christians who get themselves involved in bullying other religions around.. Like Saul did of old going around bullying people because of his misguided beliefs.
Every Charismatic Christian I know believes exactly what this video talks about. They use different language for it and have different specifics but the general idea they totally agree with.
That's not what Christ teaches by his own example, he had to overcome evil with doing good. Evil is a component of Good because without being tempted by evil and resisting the wrong choices in order to make good choices, we could not experience blessings or to choose good. Choices work by having opposites in existence to choose from. For the purpose of evil is to learn to resist evil to choose the good. That is how God tutors his children so through their experiences of both good and evil they will learn to prize the good and to overcome the evil. That is why God intended on having opposites in all things to cause the Fall. Without opposites there can be no faith. A life of opposites was exemplified throughout Christ's own sinless life who was tempted all the time to do evil by the devil when he came to tempt him to try to fail in his mission yet he choose to do Good in following his Father's will and resisted the temptations of the devil.
It sounds like they are going to be really bored with Heaven what with it being a paradise and all. Why not get some sin going up there so that it will be interesting? Ya know, downward but forward.
Was the fall a good thing? In traditional Christianity…no. The fall resulted in death entering the world. God in His omniscience foreknew this would happen and a contingency plan in Christ was prepared (Gen. 3:14-15), in order to deliver from death those who would repent of their sins and turn to reliance in the Lord. There is a problem with 2 Nephi 2:14-22. It states that if Adam did not transgress against God then all things would remain the same, including the innocent state of Adam and Eve that apparently kept them from procreating. Returning to the Bible we read in Gen. 1:28 “ And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply” (KJV). The conundrum here is that the BoM claims that procreation was impossible without the fall. However, in the Bible, God ordains sex between man and woman before the fall ending the creation account with the words, “And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.” We know that sin or “transgression” is NOT GOOD. Yet God proclaimed the act of making love (at least for procreation) as GOOD. But the BoM suggests that Adam and Eve needed to enter into a sinful state before hand. Why would God make the command to be “fruit full and multiply” if Adam and Eve were not in the condition to do so? The other issue is that Satan would have known God’s plan for the salvation of the world according to Mormon theology. If Satan, who made a bid to be the savior of world, knew that the only path to divine ascent for humanity would be to ensure that death would enter reality through the partaking of the fruit from the tree of knowledge, why would he encourage the task if his goal is to keep people from God now that he is fallen? The truth is, there are many problems and contradictions with the Mormon scriptures. We are naturally opposed to God. But the good news is God has ensured a way to return to fellowship with Him. The true Gospel message is not one of works but of faith and FAITH ALONE, that serves as our justification after Christ’s sacrifice. The sacrifice was needed in order to rescue our broken world. Christ was the only person who could bear the wrath of God because He is God. And He is the only one that can forgive our sins.
@@chrishumphries7489 Chris, for your first objection, God does indeed declare that sex between man and woman is good Gen. 1:31. He declares all that He hath made was “very good” including two humans with the ability to pro-create. And what was it exactly am I personally inferring? That the words “be fruitful and multiply” means to procreate? Of course it does! Children in Sunday school know what this means. As far as Adam and Eve’s children: Do they not grow old? Who knows. Does time exist? Yes, with the first words of the Bible, “In the beginning.” This is an implication of time. I can no more attempt to understand what it would have been like for the children of Adam and Eve, had they stayed, than you can. Does Eve get kicked out of Eden if Adam does not partake of the fruit. Yes, God made woman once before and He could do it again. Regardless, Adam failed in his role as the headship of the first human family. As husband to Eve he was to guide he spiritually. As far as suggesting that the tree of knowledge was the clue that God “wanted” Adam to fall, this is eisegeses in the truest form. God does not play games and does not give contradictory commands (1 Corinthians 14:33; Numbers 23:19). This does not go against His Omniscience and Omnipotence. As I said earlier the Lord knew we would fall before our creation. The tree of knowledge is a choice given to humanity. Follow God, or follow ourselves. Adam and Eve chose wrong. And because God foreknew such an event would take place, the TRUE PLAN to intervene through the sacrifice of Christ and ultimately give people a second chance to choose Him of our own free will was set into place in order to restore our proper relationship with Him. Mormonism provides the idea that humans can ascend to godhood. But we must first live this life to the best of our ability, following the teachings of Mormon theology. Hence the notion that we needed to fall before other members of the pre-created order could come to earth and have their chance to prove their worthiness of godhood. The desire to be our own god is a sin as old as the garden itself. It is the root of our sin. The reason of pride, to be able to choose a life of our own and one that does not honor God. Saying that the fall was “good” is a contradiction no can reconcile. I mean the first example given about stealing bread because you’re hungry and though you stole you now have food to eat, which is good, is a weird logical point to make. Stealing is Stealing, to lie is to lie and to murder is to murder. Sin is sin, no matter how you look at it. Taking it upon yourself to steal bread because you’re hungry is a lack of faith in God’s ability to provide for you. And don’t you dare suggest that God presented you with an opportunity to steal (breaking one of the ten commandments). Come to the real Christ who is God and who is the only one that forgive sins and grant salvation. Abandon the needless works of Mormonism and the desire to become a god. Come to Christ who is true love.
You don't understand the scriptures and read Genesis 1 wrong. It was after the Fall in Genesis 4 that they started giving birth to children not before the Fall. So you are incorrect doctrinally they did not have sex in Chapter 1 as you assume and just wasted your time posting anti-mormon rubbish. It was God's plan for them to come to knowledge of Good and Evil, for God said In Genesis Chapter 3 after Adam had eaten of the fruit and God said to Adam 'Behold the man has become as one of us to know good and evil; The Fall was God's Plan, Satan was part of God's plan to bring about the Fall to further God's own purposes. .
@@germanslice In Genesis 1:28 God commanded Adam and Eve to Be Fruitful and multiply. My argument is that God had ordained human ability to procreate before the fall occurred. Whether or not they had children the Lord granted them the ability to do so in a state of innocence and righteousness. If you are going to say that God "desired" man to fall I believe that your interpretation of scripture is way off. Considering that sin is punishable by eternal death, Why would the Lord actively seek to put His creation in such a state? Why would God desire humanity to endure war, strife, rape, murder, etc. only to seek to undo the sin of man through the sacrifice of Christ? Of Course The Lord foreknew our sin, but this is different than the Lord willing us to enter into a sinful state.
God had wisdom and he also had the knowledge of good and evil and also how to beget children. So God already had that knowledge. But God wanted Adam and Eve to become like him. 'For behold, the man has become like one of us to know good and evil' confirmed by God the Father himself because it was the Father's plan. it is not a sin to become more like God or more Christlike because to become like God is a COMMANDMENT given at the end of the Sermon on the Mount 'Be ye perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect' but we can't be all perfect here in this life. But that is the goal. Jesus was made in the express image of the Father's OWN PERSON in whose image and likeness we were also made in. The Father is a tangible glorified resurrected being. Christians don't believe it because they don't know all the truth because of their own unbelief like doubting Thomas who will not believe because their eyes have not seen but more blessed are those who have not seen but have believed....Jesus also reinforced those same teachings of man becoming like God the Father in John Chapter 15-17. God the Father is a resurrected glorified being. Where it not so he could not dwell up in heaven while the Son of God dwelt down on the earth before he returned back to his Father up in heaven. So the Christians don't understand the truth.
The fall was a good thing? Let’s try and tell that to every little boy and girl who is molested. Or let’s try and tell that to every wife who’s husband was killed at war. Or every mom who has lost a child to cancer. You all realize that the fall is the reason for every bad thing that takes place here on earth? How can that possibly be a good thing? It was not God’s plan for sin and evil to come into his perfect world. To say the fall is a good thing is to say God is the author of sin. This is blasphemy!
Ryan Mercer Try and tell that to a little boy or girl who has been molested. “It’s okay this is all God’s plan for sin and evil to come into the world.” Or a person dying of cancer “God wanted this to happen.” Do you realize that makes no sense? To say the fall is a good thing is to call God the author of sin. That’s BLASPHEMY!
God created human beings in His image (Genesis 1:27) and since He is free, humans were created free, too. Because of our freedom to choose, the opportunity to sin will always be there. God didn’t create sin directly, He instead gave us our agency which inherently opens the door to choosing either good or evil. We can’t exercise our agency if there isn’t anything to choose from.
Ryan Mercer Yes and according to your beliefs this was all good things. God wanted this to happen.... I don’t believe that at all by the way. I believe those are all horrible things and God wanted none of that to happen. It’s a a result of Satan deceiving Eve and Adam hearkening to the voice of his wife. God gave them freedom to choose and they choose sin over God. Satan wanted all that to happen to you not God. But according to Mormonism all those bad things were part of God’s eternal plan.
@@michaeljames5881 You act like nobody exists who can be appreciative of the effects of the fall of Adam and Eve (as we believe them) and also experience hardships. That is a fallacy. To further Olivia's point, the fall is responsible for the actions of others, only by virtue of the fall opening the way for God's spirit sons and daughters to be born with physical bodies here on this earth. The case you present would be equivalent of you being (hypothetically) responsible for the act of your child who one day grows up to be a bank robber; thus making you equally guilty of bank robbery. God is not the author of sin any more than he is the director of every decision you make in your life; of which he is not. He doesn't control me or you. We all have been given agency; and to that point in reference to the fall - this is why a key tenant of our faith is that "All men (and women) will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression."
You guys just gave me revelation on how the serpent reasoned with Eve. 🙏 so that’s how Satan does it, tell man to fulfill his potential and that their is no other way. You guys are awesome. “Glad Satan helped mankind to be more like God and lead man to do a “good thing”. Excellent reason to disobey God and give glory to Satan for causing Eve to disobey. I wonder how much of Satan teachings are taught in the temple to be more like God and fulfilled Your potential.
“It was downward but it was forward”-Mimi
I LOVE THAT!!!!
So is addiction. Downward but forward. Should you then continue in that since you're moving forward?
Wow , yall are really popping out videos more frequently!
Avi Ortiz Every week day :)
i had no idea mormons don't believe in original sin. so that's why you're all so happy and positive all the time^^
Blondine vloggt Heyyyyyy might be true!
@@ariapimp5931 haha :D well i don't think they're any more of a cult than mainstream christian churches are.... but i do love coffee so i guess there's no hope for me^^
I know Christians from other denominations who are happy and positive all time, even though they believe in original sin, because they have faith in the Atonement of Jesus Christ, so they believe what Psalm 32:1 says: “Happy is the one whose transgression is pardoned, whose sin is covered”.
Right !
That ending with Batman reference was epic. David you’re the best.
Orson Scott Cards book, The Worthing Sagas, is an excellent explanation of the thought that we can't truly appreciate joy and happiness without feeling pain and suffering! Really good book by the way!
Have you done a video on the concept of the recurring theme in The Book of Mormon: if you keep His commandments, you shall prosper in the land?
Love this!!!!
Satan tempting Eve: ($w$)
Satan realizing it was part of God’s plan: (030)
I’m sorry I realize this isn’t reddit
I love y’alls videos
Crazedarmyof1 Thanks! We love YOU!
Saints Unscripted I am a member of the Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter-Day Saints and I love y’alls conversion story’s. It’s nice to find Channels like this one which are clean.
2:19 you asked to be corrected if wrong. Minor correction but huge implication. Eve wasn't the one who caused the fall. It wasn't her transgression that plunged mankind into spiritual, it was Adam. He was the one that God commanded not to eat from that specific tree as the leader between him and his wife. Eve was tempted, but Adam disobeyed. Romans 5:12 teaches us that "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned". That sinner was Adam. His disobedience caused sin to enter the world and death through sin struck all his descendants according to this passage. We see this more in Genesis 3:17-19 "Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’; Cursed is the ground because of you; with hard labor you shall eat from it all the days of your life.18 Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; Yet you shall eat the [b]plants of the field; 19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, until you return to the ground, because from it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.” it's all there in Bible, just need to read it.
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. Romans 6:1-2
To the woman He said:
“I will sharply increase your pain in childbirth; in pain you will bring forth children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.” And to Adam He said:
“Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten from the tree of which I COMMANDED you not to eat, cursed is the ground because of you; through toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.
Genesis 3:16-17
It doesn't sound to me like God thinks these are good things just because it allowed for his grace (which would not be needed without it anyway). As for joy resulting from sin, that's like saying "Yeah drugs are bad but without them, you wouldn't get to feel high." Nor does it sound like it was just a suggestion not to eat the fruit, seeing as how He said he commanded them not to. I love and agree with most LDS beliefs and I know you have extra scripture this comes from but you also have the Bible which flat out contradicts this.
Interesting. I’m not a LDS member, but I’ve been researching your beliefs as unbiased and respectful as possible. If you guys believe that “we wouldn’t be here” had our original parents not sinned, how do you explain God’s commandment at Genesis 1:28, when, still being in perfection, God commanded them “Be fruitful, become many and fill the earth”?
I'm not LDS either, so I'm not going to answer for them. But I wanted to point out that your example is not a command. It's a benediction, a blessing(It says "he blessed them and said..."), telling them they have permission and approval to multiply, and can expect to be successful in the attempt. Not all imperatives are commands. Multiplication seems to be Gods prerogative in Gen 30:2
Hi Jose,
Very good question and they lightly toughed on it, but it is good to explain it in more detail. God did give them the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth, but do we know that they understood what that meant from the beginning? We have evidence in the scriptures that they did not for they didn't know that they were naked. If they didn't even know they were naked, they would not have known how to multiply and replenish the earth. In Genesis 3 starting at verse 7, right after they ate of the forbidden fruit it says, "7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.
9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?"
So it is evident from the scriptures that God knew that they would not know they were naked until they had eaten of the fruit. He knowingly gave them a commandment that they couldn't fulfill until they partook of that fruit! It was Eve who was the first to understand that they could not keep both commandments. She and later Adam chose to become human (and therefore be subject to death), in order to learn the difference between good and evil, and also to have children. This is why we do not see Eve as screwing up Father's plan, she fulfilled it! She, and Adam, are to be praised, not chastised for the choice they made.
Consider this point. If Father is all knowing (Omniscient), why would he place an object that would mess up His whole plan in His children's reach and tell them not to use it? He had to know they would eat of it as he is all knowing! It is impossible that He did not know! Yet He still placed it in the garden. It is like a parent placing a bowl of Skittles in the center of the table and telling the kids not to eat any and then walking out of the room! How long before they attack the Skittles? It was part of Father's plan that they eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. But because Father will not force anyone to do anything against their will, He needed them to choose that path for themselves. We are grateful they did for that is the only way we also get to learn the difference between good and evil. We are here to learn the same things that Adam and Eve learned. And we have kids for the same reasons they did. It is all part of a loving Father's plan.
We all have that commandment to multiply and replenish the earth but we also have the 10 commandments stating there is a time and place to do that and it is within marriage. Great discussion.
@@oldcowboy3367 this was very well said, however I'm an LDS convert and I've observed that what you said falls into the whole "Take the bad and flip it into something good" basically seeing the glass half full.
Alot of LDS members do things thing called "REACHING" meaning your taking something that wasn't directly stated, but kinda did a bit of bending inorder for it to fit your narrative, kinda like In Isiah where in a verse it says something along the lines of whispering from the ground, which we take is as "the golden plates being buried"
It's too vague to debunk or prove.
I digress.
What you said just throws us back into the loop of the fact that "IT WAS A COMMANDMENT NOT TO DO SO"
God hates when we sin, especially disobey, I believe he would've approached the situation differently or just like children, Adam and Eve would have observed the way animals procreated and well "acted it out on each other" because remember they were innocent children, and they would think as such,
Another point you said about God wanting them to choose that path,
Then why curse humanity with labor pains, us men having do hard work to live, until we die ect.
It doesn't line up.
I end by saying, I'm not here to debunk your point but to just show how many different prospectives this topic has been looked at throughout the thousands of years of Christianity. We can't understand how God thinks, even if we tried to look at behavior patterns, it goes like this:
God gives rules/instructions
People disobey
God curses them
God instructs someone to help those cursed people
Ect with some variations
I personally belive that God's plan was affected, however due to how great he is, it always works,
Just like how the enemy try to separate us with different denominations, it will still work out, but of the commandment: Love Thy Neighbor.
Hi@@aderesthompson ,
I love your comments, and welcome to our religious community.
To the idea of us being willing to "bend" scriptures to fit what we believe, I plead guilty! Now I do believe that those scriptures really do intend to say what we suggest they say, but because of translations and changing relationships between words, it is hard to see the original intent. So, we do have to bend ideas and words to get them to meet. We are not alone in this desire. Most all religions struggle to see their doctrine well defined in ancient scripture. Not to cause contention, but to simply show the concept, the doctrine of a Trinity is not in the Bible. The word is not there. Likewise, the Rapture is not found, though scriptures are used to describe it. They can be demonstrated with the use of more vague passages, but they still have to "bend" the words to get them to fit.
Ok, now to your comment that "it still was a commandment." I appreciate your perspective on Adam and Eve as children. It makes sense, and I don't fault you for holding to it. However, please permit me to offer another one. I view Adam and Eve as having come to the realization that in order to fulfill the commandments, they were to eat of the fruit and become mortal. They made a choice, not just an impulsive sin. Since you already have a testimony of the Book of Mormon, I am free to use a scripture or two from that miracle book. 2 Nephi 2:22 - 25, "And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end. And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin. But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things. Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy."
Such a deep understanding of the gospel. Why curse humanity with pain and force us to labor? So that we may learn to fully appreciate joy! One cannot know that something is sweet without having tasted bitter. That is why Father created a world with "Opposition in all things." That we may learn the Good from the Evil. Without each we cannot choose.
God knew they would fall. He intended that they fall. So that, by choice, they could bring His children into mortality.
By the way, this is not new doctrine. They had it in the days of the Old Testament, and they had it in the days of the New. But you have to read the Apocrypha to find it. If the Apocrypha make you uncomfortable, I only intend to show that these ideas have been held from antiquity. You don't have to believe they are scripture.
In the LDS framework, do people not have original sin because of the Atonement? Or is the lack of original sin predate the atonement? The reason I ask is because I'm not sure what it is Christ's atonement actually accomplishes in an LDS framework. Or is it that his sacrifice allows for the sins we commit ourselves to be forgiven freely? Also, how would you compare the lack of original sin with the Pelagian heresy? (I use heresy as a reference, not as me personally condemning it as so) I would really love an LDS response to this because I genuinely want your perspective if you feel led to respond.
Lack of original sin predates the atonement (tho the atonement is omnipresent in all times), we believe the atonement was to bring about the exhalation and salvation of men. Had it not been for the atonement, no men would be able to achieve perfection, and no imperfect thing can reside in the kingdom of god. Through the atonement, Christ took upon himself the sins of the world, and the punishment Theron (in the garden of Gathsemene, mormons believe Christ felt all pain that every man has ever felt, as well as taking upon himself the punishment of every sin ever repented for). Because of this we can repent, and if we can repent, our wickedness can be washed away. We will never achieve perfection, however we are ALWAYS progressing (as our purpose on this earth was to progress) and Tho we will never achieve perfection in this life, Christ’s grace is sufficient for the next (the spirit world) in the spirit world we will have a perfect knowledge of all the good and evil we have committed, and AGAIN receive opportunity to repent. It is through Christ’s grace alone that we are saved, after all we can do.
Christ did not atone for those who refuse to repent, they will receive punishment for their own sins and receive according to their works in the final judgement.
No man will be perfect, we will all make mistakes, and some mistakes we may deep down be unremorcful for, but through Christ’s grace our wickedness can be cleansed.
It all goes back to the mormon concept of the 3 degrees of glory (how all are saved through Christ’s grace, however Christ’s grace saves people at different degrees depending on how they chose to use it(his grace)). But I won’t get into that as ive already write a long incoherent essay that probably has tons of grammar mistakes, as I’m writing this at 1am.
The very concept of God issuing self-contradictory commandments ("Partake not of the fruit if the tree of knowledge", and, "Multiply and replenish the earth") would bother most rational people and give rise to serious skepticism about a faith that believes that!
What I don’t understand tho, is if the fall was a good thing, then why did Satan HELP god by orchestrating it? In the temple account of the creation, Lucifer says he only did what was done on other worlds. He knows that the fall was necessary for the progress of mankind, so if that’s the case, then why did he assist in bringing it about? Why did he help god? Perhaps not because he was helping god, but because his arrogance leads him to believe that if he assists in the fall he would be able to lead more spirits away from god?
It could be so he would have the opportunity to tempt all men, until they fell no other children would come about.
The plan had to fail in order for it to work.
Why does the "plan" require Adam & Eve to eat of the fruit? The only thing I can think of, is that in LDS theology Adam and Eve did not know how to procreate, without partaking of the tree of knowledge?
The second part that I am struggling to get is how God can be considered good if God placed Adam and Eve in an untenable position where they either disobey god by not procreating, or by eating of the fruit?
I went back and reviewed the Biblical text on this topic, and I can not find anything that indicates that Adam and Eve did not know how to procreate (or evidence that they knew how to procreate) the bible is silent on this topic. Does the LDS church have any scripture that addresses if Adam & Eve had the knowledge on how to procreate?
The concept of original sin is a core doctrine of most Christian churches, and how the LDS church handles this topic with the 2nd Article of Faith is unique. From a Biblical perspective, the reason Jesus was born into this world without sin is that his Father is God, not a man that originated from Adam. (Romans 5:12-21).
@Saints Unscripted.....“Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned” (Romans 5:12). The effects of the Fall are numerous and far reaching. Sin has affected every aspect of our being. It has affected our lives on earth and our eternal destiny.
One of the immediate effects of the Fall was that mankind was separated from God. In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve had perfect communion and fellowship with God. When they rebelled against Him, that fellowship was broken. They became aware of their sin and were ashamed before Him. They hid from Him (Genesis 3:8-10), and man has been hiding from God ever since. Only through Christ can that fellowship be restored, because in Him we are made as righteous and sinless in God’s eyes as Adam and Eve were before they sinned. “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).
Because of the Fall, death became a reality, and all creation was subject to it. All men die, all animals die, all plant life dies. The “whole creation groans” (Romans 8:22), waiting for the time when Christ will return to liberate it from the effects of death. Because of sin, death is an inescapable reality, and no one is immune. “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23). Worse still, we not only die, but if we die without Christ, we experience eternal death.
Another effect of the Fall is that humans have lost sight of the purpose for which they were created. Man’s chief end and highest purpose in life is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever (Romans 11:36; 1 Corinthians 6:20; 1 Corinthians 10:31; Psalm 86:9). Hence, love to God is the core of all morality and goodness. The opposite is the choice of self as supreme. Selfishness is the essence of the Fall, and what follows are all other crimes against God. In all ways sin is a turning in upon oneself, which is confirmed in how we live our lives. We call attention to ourselves and to our good qualities and accomplishments. We minimize our shortcomings. We seek special favors and opportunities in life, wanting an extra edge that no one else has. We display vigilance to our own wants and needs, while we ignore those of others. In short, we place ourselves upon the throne of our lives, usurping God’s role.
When Adam chose to rebel against his Creator, he lost his innocence, incurred the penalty of physical and spiritual death, and his mind was darkened by sin, as are the minds of his successors. The apostle Paul said of pagans, “Since they do not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, He gave them over to a depraved mind” (Romans 1:28). He told the Corinthians that “the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so that they cannot see the light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God” (2 Corinthians 4:4). Jesus said, “I have come into the world as a light so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness” (John 12:46). Paul reminded the Ephesians, “You were once in darkness but now you are in the light of the Lord” (Ephesians 5:8). The purpose of salvation is “to open the eyes [of unbelievers] and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God” (Acts 26:18).
The Fall produced in humans a state of depravity. Paul spoke of those “whose consciences are seared” (1 Timothy 4:2) and those whose minds are spiritually darkened as a result of rejecting the truth (Romans 1:21). In this state, man is utterly incapable of doing or choosing that which is acceptable to God, apart from divine grace. “The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so” (Romans 8:7).
Without the supernatural regeneration by the Holy Spirit, all men would remain in their fallen state. But in His grace, mercy and loving-kindness, God sent His Son to die on the cross and take the penalty of our sin, reconciling us to God and making eternal life with Him possible. What was lost at the Fall is reclaimed at the Cross.
Perfectly said!
What is your religion by the way?
It's Latter-day saints
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints❤
I can't think of anything Satan would want more than for humans to think the Fall is a good thing...
"Woe unto them who call good evil and evil good"--Isaiah 5:20
Mormonism is inherently an upside down religion. Like all other world religions, it distorts the truth of God in ways that are absolutely unimaginable to comprehend. You should pray for Mormons that God would grant them repentance and new eyes to see the horrific web of lies they are caught up in.
Chavah Bjork you are absolutely correct!😇
You need the Holy Ghost to understand the things of God, just study and reasoning alone is not enough to understand and see things correctly the way God sees them... You cannot see from an eternal perspective without the Holy Ghost....
The Church works like the Liahona does, God gives instructions and directions from time to time things that is why things will change, just as the directions on the ball changed from time to time to direct Lehi and his family in the wilderness.
the one and only eternal Jesus Christ suffered and died for the sins of the world
sin is not something to say "thank you" for
"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter."
Isaiah 5:20 NIV
To be clear the LDS church does believe in the original sin of Adam and Eve. The difference is that we understand that the punishment or curse for that sin was placed upon the land and not upon the people. In other words because of that sin all mankind is born into an inhospitable world, where man is more likely to fall into sinful tendencies, not that man is sinful at birth, because of Adam's sin. and Technically speaking the Atonement did in fact make up for the fallen world and all it's many faults and issues that we would have to account for and be subjected to during this life. so the LDS understanding is really not that far different than the Mainstream understanding.
The biggest difference is that mainstream Christianity sees the Fall as a bad thing assuming that procreation and agency were still very much present in that pre-fallen world. Therefore, if Adam had not sinned, it isn't that we wouldn't be alive, but that we would still be living in that perfect world. This is only hearsay and is not substantiated by any scripture. The reality is that if the Fall of man was not included as part of God's design and plan for us then there would have been no point in already appointing Jesus as the savior of the world even from before the foundations of the world were laid. As we are taught it was definitely a set downward in glory, but was also a step forward to a greater glory than we other wise could have had if the fall had not happened in the first place.
In this life we are made a little lower than the angels, but know you not that we are called to judge those angels?! Due to us being less than the angels for a short time, we grow and become more like God than those angels whom we are called to judge in the end, because they never experienced what we have in this mortal life.
Children don't come naturally to good character traits, they are taught and learned, therefore we are born with sin. Its just that we don't reach understanding of it til we are able to understand
@@donna-marie1936 you are not born with sin. you are born with a tendency to sin. it doesn't mean you have to sin, it means that because of your tendencies, brought on by this fallen world, the likelihood of you sinning is exponentially higher. one might even say inevitable. we should not conflate the inevitability of sinning with the idea that we have sinned already, just by being born. we und up with a skewed perspective of our nature and potential if we make that mistake.
Good said it was bad.
Nuff said.
Hi Patrick,
I don't read in the JKV where He said it was "bad". He just said not to eat it. He also told them why He gave the commandment. In fact, if you read it precisely, it wasn't a commandment, it was a teaching moment. In modern English it might read something like this, "Now don't eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because it's poison. If you do you will die." And to their eternal bodies it was poison, and they did die in the day they ate of it (which to God is 1000 of our years).
Guys on this video you say that you don’t believe in the concept of original sin but simply that you have agency but it’s a big problem because that contradicts biblical scripture.
Romans 5:12 “That is why just as through one man (Adam) sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned.”
That’s a big difference from what you are saying here.
That scripture is telling us that we do inherit original sin through Adams transgression and disobedience.
Also when you say that of Adam hadn’t sinned you wouldn’t be here, that’s not true Cos at Genesis 1:28 God says “Be fruitful and become many and full the Earth.”
So Gods plan was for Adam and Eve to reproduce and fill the earth.
I have a lot of respect for you guys but you cannot just cherry pick bible verses that fit Mormon teaching and then completely overlook other verses that teach something different.
The idea that we owe thanks to Adam and Eve is an outrageous Idea.
Had Adam been obedient we’d all be living right now as perfect human beings free of disease and we’d have eternal life.
Yet instead we live in a world full of disease poverty and troubles.
That’s hardly a reason to be thanking Adam and Eve.
God the Father is Omniscient and knows of all things before they even happen, so he knew of everything and that's why he let the devil in to cause the Fall for God knew what would happen before they even ate the fruit and Fell for without eating of the fruit they could not bear children not having knowledge of good and evil. So a change had to come over their bodies to make them first mortal so they could bear children because without eating of the fruit of good and evil they could not bear children, so eating of the fruit brought about that change. Which God confirmed the change when he said to Adam after eating of the fruit, Behold the man has become like one of us to know good and evil.
@@germanslice I don't agree with the interpretation that you have just provided here because if you have read the bible properly you should have noticed that even though Yahweh has the ability to foresee future events there are many instances in which he doesn't choose to exercise this foresight.
To prove my point Genesis 6:5,6 "Yahweh saw that the badness of man was abundant in the earth and every inclination of the thoughts of his heart were only bad all the time.
And Yahweh felt REGRET that he had made men In the earth, and he felt hurt at his heart."
So that scripture describes God has regretting that he had created mankind on the earth. Now if he had foreseen this regret, tell me, why would he have then gone on to create them? He wouldn't have.
So this proves that God does not always choose to use his foresight.
Another example of this is when he chose Saul to be king of Israel yet following sauls disobedience tells Samuel the prophet that he now regrets that he had made Saul
The king of Israel.
The fact that Yahweh is described as regretting certain decisions he had made demonstrates that although he does have prophetic foresight, that he only uses it in certain circumstances.
Don't be gullible and believe the heresy of the LDS Church.
Most of the things they teach are a massive departure from bible doctrine.
There is already ample proof out there that Joseph Smith was a con man and what kind of reasonable man will ignore proof?
Many of the things the latter-day saints do teach are from the bible and are in harmony with bible doctrine its the Christians who don't understand the scriptures. because they give many different interpretations of the same passage of scripture and this is why there is so much confusion and so many different doctrines taught on the same scripture in the christian world Is all a big mess.... The Problem the Christians seem to have that I been noticing is that many of them are just arm chair commentators siting on the sidelines sitting as judges telling other people in other religions how to live the gospel of Jesus Christ because they are not living the basic principles of the gospel themselves so they go around telling others how to live the gospel. But you can't live the gospel vicariously through other people. You have to be living the basics of the gospel yourself to gain a testimony of the truth to know whether the doctrine is of God or not and that is what we teach in the church, nobody can live on the borrowed light of others. Each must have their own testimony of the gospel. I have a testimony of the gospel and a testimony also of God.
germanslice Well that’s great if you have a testimony that you can put your trust in.
This aspect of LDS is not something I know much of because the idea of personal testimony seems more unique to that church.
I’m actually a Jehovah’s Witness which is a branch of Christianity but there is much that we an mainstream Christianity disagree about.
But all I’m saying is that it seems self evident that God does not always choose to use his foresight.
Reading the bible makes this clear.
After taking the kingdom out of king Solomon’s hand due to his idolatry, God chose Jeroboam to be the next king of Israel, only to be betrayed by Jeroboam who also filled the nation of Israel with more idolatry.
Had God used his foresight to foresee Jeroboams idolatry then he would have chosen somebody else instead of Jeroboam, a man that misled Gods people into committing idolatry.
So God does have foresight I agree, but it’s self evident in scripture that he only uses it under certain circumstances which is why your interpretation of the events surrounding the garden of Eden don’t stand up.
After all, God brought punishment upon Satan for what he did by making him the most cursed of the creatures of the ground.
Why would he punish something if he had used it in order to fulfill his will.
It’s wacky reasoning.
All I’m doing here is been logical.
Mormons seem like nice people but they have got themselves caught up in a web of spiritual fantasy.
You need to realize that the Holy Ghost is the teacher of the things of God and he communicates to us by feelings. It is biblical doctrine to receive feelings from the Holy Ghost to testify of the things of God. There is an incident showing what its like to feel of the Holy Ghost when truth is testified to the two disciples in Luke 24:32 They were receiving revelation from God through the Holy Ghost.
The Intellect alone cannot reveal this kind of Knowledge from heaven, only the Holy Ghost is able to reveal it... That is why Jesus said 'Blessed art thou son of Jonah for man has not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who art in heaven' The Father reveals the truth by the power of the Holy Ghost from heaven to our spirits to know what the truth is..
This is the same biblical pattern the Latter-day Saints use to testify of truth which they describe by the burning in the bossom or swelling warm feelings which bring peace and joy and happiness comes from God and that is the Spirit of the Lord and it comes to us not as a loud but as a still small voice as if it was a whisper. Those who are born of the Spirit, the spirit comes and goes like the wind. (1 Kings 19:12, Johh 3:8) and it speaks peace to our minds and hearts.
I find it ironic God created that fruit tree and all good things come from Him yet at the same time Adam and Eve were forbidden to partake of that tree
Lehi's comments should be understood to be in the context of eve having fallen and imminently cast out of the garden. Adam would have remained in the garden and separated from Eve because she would have been cast out. So Lehis comments are not about how Adam and eve had to fall. It was about how eve's choice put Adam in the situation where he had to fall to remain with eve and fulfill the commandment to multiply.
As far as speculation goes, I think adam and eve were raised and taught by God that the time for them to become mortal would come one day when the time was right. They were to wait for the one authorized to give them of the fruit of teh tree of knowledge of good and evil which was Christ. However Satan came symbolically represented as the serpent, which we know from Moses and the Brazen was actually a symbol of the Christ and good, before Satan perverted it and sullied it. Yet even in Moses time, Christ persisted in using the symbol to represent himself or jehovah. Anyway, when it says that Satan came in the form of a serpent I think it means that came bearing the outward or appearances of authority, ie the Christ, the one authorized to give them the fruit. Adam didnt fall for it but Eve did. Now they were in a predicament and all Adam could do to keep the remaining commandments and to take care of eve and help here, was to partake of the fruit as well and start, albeit prematurely, the path into mortality. and so today the adversary will often use good symbols to make his evil appear legitimate and trustworthy. the swastika was a symbol for excellence and the best, before the national socialist party under Adolph Hitler turned it into a symbol of hatred and centralized power of the state. The upside down pointed stars we all so often associate with satan worship were ancient holy symbols used by israel for good. Thats why the nauvoo temple has them, because in the final dispensation Christ is reclaiming all things that are his and setting things back as they were before.
I stan
Because they both chose to disobey God, sin entered the world.
If the fall was a good thing and was meant to kick off God’s plan of salvation then why would the serpent who is Satan have tried to deceive eve? Wouldn’t he have wanted them not to fall so the plan of salvation was never kicked off?
Mike James Satan didn’t know
Satan wanted to next get them to eat from the tree of life and live forever in their sins so they would be in his control forever with no chance at redemption. Problem was, God showed up and short circuited Satan's plan by casting them out of the garden so they couldn't eat from the tree and would have a lifetime to work on getting back into Gods presence with Christs help.
Do you actually watch the videos or just respond to the titles? Use your ears and eyes and watch it from beginning to end. You might learn something.
The fall was part of God's plan
Why is it Adam and eve wait to have children until after they sined??????
Because they cannot have children without first having the knowledge of good and evil.
@Muchemwa Sichone That's not correct. They could not bear children before the Fall because they didn't have the knowledge of good and evil in order to know how to have children. They were innocent before the Fall. God had stepped aside himself to let the Fall happen for he knew what he was doing when he caused them to Fall in order to come to that knowledge to carry out his commandment to multiply and replendish the earth once they ate the fruit..
God may have blessed them to multiply before the Fall, but it could not come about until they actually ate the fruit to give them the knowledge.
So God brought opposition into the world because without having good and evil, there can be no agency or growth or experiences and they would remain in their innocent state without knowing of good and evil and the plan of God would have been all frustrated and come to naught and his words to bless and to multiply made all void God cannot deny his word once its been said, this is why God stepped aside to make the Fall happen to fulfill his words..
That is why after the fruit was eaten, God later said, behold, the man has become like one of us to know good and evil.
How can a Holy God know good and evil unless he has also experienced making choices between good and evil like his son Jesus did when the devil came to him to tempt him to do evil many times and Jesus resisted and chose good, he had the ability to choose evil but he didn't, so being tempted to do evil as Jesus was by the devil is not a sin for he did not give into the temptation but resisted...So even a sinless man like Jesus who had knowledge of good and evil suffered temptations of every kind.
So in order to have moral agency and spiritual growth and experiences there must be good and evil to choose between to exercise that agency that God has given to man. This is how God tutors us to choose the good and to overcome the evil. There must be opposites.
Before the fall they were immortal they didn't have a physical body.
@@germanslice I see no philosophical or religious reason why the fall was necessary to have children. The idea that unless you know evil you can't procreate makes no sense.
@@denisewhite11385 this is helpful to understand this doctrine. Could you share with me where you find this in doctrine? I'm studying this currently. thanks!
I really hope one day you all escape the control of that cult. Honestly, if someone from your group knocked on my door and ACTUALLY said what you guys believe, i would think someone escaped from the loonie bin and would call the authorities. I mean actually broke down everything.... it’s insane you guys. Your thoughts have been controlled so much that you can’t see through it and it’s sad. I hope one day you break the cults claws and can have your freedom back. One day...:
Hi Drew,
Thank you for your desire for me to see how I've been controlled. I appreciate your genuine concern. My question for you is, what if our "insane" teachings are actually the truth. Then who is the insane one? While I recognize our teachings may differ considerably from those of other faiths, they teach us to be kind, to love our fellowmen and women, to care for those in need, and to strive to be better humans each day. How insane is that?
What happened to the Name of The 3 Mormons.?
Wait but why couldn’t god just start life with Adam and Eve without all of the apple stuff and just started it without all that stuff?
Man was sinless before the fall.Sin entered the world at the fall.Sin entered into the relationship between man and God at the fall.Before the fall there was no sin between Man and God.Man and God were in perfect fellowship before the fall.
All of creation was created to glorify God.We were created to glorify God.No good comes from disobedience.Disobedience does not glorify God.To believe that through disobedience the plan to become like God was set into motion, is hogwash.We cannot become like God.We are created beings.God can't sin.He never could sin.We were created to bring glory to God.The greatest "progression" you folks could make is to learn that NO SIN DOES NOT BENEFIT YOU.....IT BRINGS DEATH.... SPIRITUAL DEATH.
Which is what entered the world at the fall.
Oh I'm hungry so I steal bread....yes that is sin but life comes from it. NO NO NO
But.....to trust God(because You know Him) to provide for your hunger because You honor Him and will not compromise....this brings glory to God ....this is what is good and trustworthy....this is what God has looked for all along........Man does not live by bread alone......all the rather......it is every word that proceeds from the mouth of God that brings life.
Why does God himself tell us to be like him?
Behold, the man has become like one of us to know good and evil. That was after eating of the fruit. God approved of it because it was his plan to cause man to fall into a world of opposition and sin, why? Because man could not progress to become like God by any other way. .
The whole point of becoming like God the Father is to obtain the same kind of body that he has. For God has a glorified celestial resurrected body. In order to get that man has to be plunged into a world of sin and opposition and then through using his agency and faith learn to overcome that fallen world to triumph above all things through relying on the Savior and on prophets which the Father would send to show us how to live the laws of God as taught in the church and then receive the same body in the resurrection that God the Father has. That's what we believe of the gospel of Jesus Christ. This plan was ordained by God in the council of heaven.
Jesus showed this by his own example. through his own obedience to the Father's commandments for he was resurrected to the same body as the Father himself has. But Jesus went from grace to grace until he finally inherited all of the fulness of the Father after the resurrection took place because he did not have the fullness of the Father at first but obtained it gradually over time and so Jesus increased in wisdom and statute and knowledge even though he was born sinless..He went from grace to grace. For the Father is a resurrected being also. Otherwise Jesus could not see what his Father does and follow his own Father's example, or teach the Father's LAWS AND DOCTRINES to the people if the Father was not a Heavenly KING with a system of laws and goverment in place in heaven.. Or be lifted up to the Father's power and glory in the Resurrection if the Father was not a tangible separate resurrected being also himself. The very fact that the Father has got laws and commandments and that Jesus teaches nothing but the Father's Doctrine and Will powerfully indicates that the Father is a tangible separate resurrected being a king, and a ruler....
Neither could Ezekiel have seen God the Father sitting up on his throne in heaven if he was not a tangible Resurrected Being when the veil was parted open for him to see into heaven where God the Father was sitting on his throne in heaven because God the Father is a Heavenly King and he has laws and rules and commandments. Jesus said I do nothing of myself but by what I seeth the Father do that I do also......Its so obvious the Father can be seen because he is a separate being from Christ..
Neither could the information that the Father knew about the time when he would send his Son to the planet at the Second Coming be witheld from Jesus and also from all the Angels and from Man if the Father was not a separate entity from the Son and from the Holy Ghost for the Father has got a separate will from them and lives up and dwells in heaven and rules up there. Were it not so he could not withold certain things from the rest of the Godhead. Were it not so then Jesus would not be teaching all the laws of his Father in order to inherit his Father's kingdom.
The Church of JESUS CHRIST of latter-day Saints do not accept a three persons inside one person god Trinity. But we believe in a Trinity instead of three seperate persons operating together as one unit or one high council of heaven known as the Godhead. Or What we call the Council of Heaven in the church....
Bad Nomad
It isn’t silly, it was the ordained way for man to become mortal, fragile, and capable of manifesting weakness, in order to improve and grow.
That was the way God ordained it to be.
God the Father was walking with Adam in the garden.
If Adam’s choice to partake of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was such a terrible sin why didn’t God ever call Adam to repent of it? Why is there absolutely no record of Adam or Eve repenting of that “sin?”
Additionally, instead of Adam having some type of punishment spiritually, like David did, God instead provides a Savior and Redeemer for him as a free gift?
There is enough recorded to understand it was a sin--God is certainly angry, calls them out for the sin, and describes the punishments. There was a spiritual punishmnent; it was separation from God.
C Book that is nonsense. It is not recorded anywhere and you know it. Biblical Fraud Christianity provides all the speculation that you justify such an argument but it is nowhere suggested that Adam’s transgression was a sin.
Your evidence is an absence of an explicit call to repent. And a claim that there was no spiritual punishment despite clear evidence of being kicked out of the garden. Sounds like you’re the one speculating beyond what is in the text. Paul interpreted Adam’s action for us and it doesn’t line up with your statements.
How do these young people read the account of the fall, (GENESIS ch:3), and believe sin is God's will, a good thing, and thank Adam and Eve?.
As a Christian it deeply grieves me to hear these young Mormons speaking blasphemy, ( that God wanted Adam and Eve to sin, and that it was good and necessary, and even crucial to our happiness.
This truly ghastly theology came from the mind of one of one man, Mormonism's founder Joseph Smith.
Simply put, absolutely everything that they said in this video was wrong, and the opposite of what the Bible actually teaches.
This is yet another example of he many many irreconcilable differences between Mormonism and Biblical Christianity.
These young Mormons are part of Joseph Smith's dreadful legacy of religious deception masquerading as Christianity that he left to the world.
And Gpd is against all the Christians who get themselves involved in bullying other religions around.. Like Saul did of old going around bullying people because of his misguided beliefs.
Every Charismatic Christian I know believes exactly what this video talks about. They use different language for it and have different specifics but the general idea they totally agree with.
Because you don't understand that God operates with opposites. Without opposites he could not become God.
.
Wow, that's a terrible take. Good is Good not because it is juxtaposed with evil, but of itself.
That's not what Christ teaches by his own example, he had to overcome evil with doing good. Evil is a component of Good because without being tempted by evil and resisting the wrong choices in order to make good choices, we could not experience blessings or to
choose good.
Choices work by having opposites in existence to choose from. For the purpose of evil is to learn to resist evil to choose the good.
That is how God tutors his children so through their experiences of both good and evil they will learn to prize the good and to overcome the evil.
That is why God intended on having opposites in all things to cause the Fall. Without opposites there can be no faith.
A life of opposites was exemplified throughout Christ's own sinless life who was tempted all the time to do evil by the devil when he came to tempt him to try to fail in his mission yet he choose to do Good in following his Father's will and resisted the temptations of the devil.
It sounds like they are going to be really bored with Heaven what with it being a paradise and all. Why not get some sin going up there so that it will be interesting? Ya know, downward but forward.
@@Mine4062 If sin is so interesting, then why is the take "sin is interesting" so hackneyed and boring?
Was the fall a good thing? In traditional Christianity…no. The fall resulted in death entering the world. God in His omniscience foreknew this would happen and a contingency plan in Christ was prepared (Gen. 3:14-15), in order to deliver from death those who would repent of their sins and turn to reliance in the Lord.
There is a problem with 2 Nephi 2:14-22. It states that if Adam did not transgress against God then all things would remain the same, including the innocent state of Adam and Eve that apparently kept them from procreating. Returning to the Bible we read in Gen. 1:28 “ And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply” (KJV). The conundrum here is that the BoM claims that procreation was impossible without the fall. However, in the Bible, God ordains sex between man and woman before the fall ending the creation account with the words, “And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.” We know that sin or “transgression” is NOT GOOD. Yet God proclaimed the act of making love (at least for procreation) as GOOD. But the BoM suggests that Adam and Eve needed to enter into a sinful state before hand. Why would God make the command to be “fruit full and multiply” if Adam and Eve were not in the condition to do so?
The other issue is that Satan would have known God’s plan for the salvation of the world according to Mormon theology. If Satan, who made a bid to be the savior of world, knew that the only path to divine ascent for humanity would be to ensure that death would enter reality through the partaking of the fruit from the tree of knowledge, why would he encourage the task if his goal is to keep people from God now that he is fallen?
The truth is, there are many problems and contradictions with the Mormon scriptures. We are naturally opposed to God. But the good news is God has ensured a way to return to fellowship with Him. The true Gospel message is not one of works but of faith and FAITH ALONE, that serves as our justification after Christ’s sacrifice. The sacrifice was needed in order to rescue our broken world. Christ was the only person who could bear the wrath of God because He is God. And He is the only one that can forgive our sins.
Beautiful 👏👏👏
@@chrishumphries7489 Chris, for your first objection, God does indeed declare that sex between man and woman is good Gen. 1:31. He declares all that He hath made was “very good” including two humans with the ability to pro-create. And what was it exactly am I personally inferring? That the words “be fruitful and multiply” means to procreate? Of course it does! Children in Sunday school know what this means.
As far as Adam and Eve’s children: Do they not grow old? Who knows. Does time exist? Yes, with the first words of the Bible, “In the beginning.” This is an implication of time. I can no more attempt to understand what it would have been like for the children of Adam and Eve, had they stayed, than you can. Does Eve get kicked out of Eden if Adam does not partake of the fruit. Yes, God made woman once before and He could do it again. Regardless, Adam failed in his role as the headship of the first human family. As husband to Eve he was to guide he spiritually.
As far as suggesting that the tree of knowledge was the clue that God “wanted” Adam to fall, this is eisegeses in the truest form. God does not play games and does not give contradictory commands (1 Corinthians 14:33; Numbers 23:19). This does not go against His Omniscience and Omnipotence. As I said earlier the Lord knew we would fall before our creation. The tree of knowledge is a choice given to humanity. Follow God, or follow ourselves. Adam and Eve chose wrong. And because God foreknew such an event would take place, the TRUE PLAN to intervene through the sacrifice of Christ and ultimately give people a second chance to choose Him of our own free will was set into place in order to restore our proper relationship with Him.
Mormonism provides the idea that humans can ascend to godhood. But we must first live this life to the best of our ability, following the teachings of Mormon theology. Hence the notion that we needed to fall before other members of the pre-created order could come to earth and have their chance to prove their worthiness of godhood. The desire to be our own god is a sin as old as the garden itself. It is the root of our sin. The reason of pride, to be able to choose a life of our own and one that does not honor God. Saying that the fall was “good” is a contradiction no can reconcile. I mean the first example given about stealing bread because you’re hungry and though you stole you now have food to eat, which is good, is a weird logical point to make. Stealing is Stealing, to lie is to lie and to murder is to murder. Sin is sin, no matter how you look at it. Taking it upon yourself to steal bread because you’re hungry is a lack of faith in God’s ability to provide for you. And don’t you dare suggest that God presented you with an opportunity to steal (breaking one of the ten commandments).
Come to the real Christ who is God and who is the only one that forgive sins and grant salvation. Abandon the needless works of Mormonism and the desire to become a god. Come to Christ who is true love.
You don't understand the scriptures and read Genesis 1 wrong. It was after the Fall in Genesis 4 that they started giving birth to children not before the Fall. So you are incorrect doctrinally they did not have sex in Chapter 1 as you assume and just wasted your time posting anti-mormon rubbish. It was God's plan for them to come to knowledge of Good and Evil, for God said In Genesis Chapter 3 after Adam had eaten of the fruit and God said to Adam 'Behold the man has become as one of us to know good and evil; The Fall was God's Plan, Satan was part of God's plan to bring about the Fall to further God's own purposes.
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@@germanslice In Genesis 1:28 God commanded Adam and Eve to Be Fruitful and multiply. My argument is that God had ordained human ability to procreate before the fall occurred. Whether or not they had children the Lord granted them the ability to do so in a state of innocence and righteousness. If you are going to say that God "desired" man to fall I believe that your interpretation of scripture is way off. Considering that sin is punishable by eternal death, Why would the Lord actively seek to put His creation in such a state? Why would God desire humanity to endure war, strife, rape, murder, etc. only to seek to undo the sin of man through the sacrifice of Christ? Of Course The Lord foreknew our sin, but this is different than the Lord willing us to enter into a sinful state.
God had wisdom and he also had the knowledge of good and evil and also how to beget children. So God already had that knowledge. But God wanted Adam and Eve to become like him. 'For behold, the man has become like one of us to know good and evil' confirmed by God the Father himself because it was the Father's plan. it is not a sin to become more like God or more Christlike because to become like God is a COMMANDMENT given at the end of the Sermon on the Mount 'Be ye perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect' but we can't be all perfect here in this life. But that is the goal.
Jesus was made in the express image of the Father's OWN PERSON in whose image and likeness we were also made in. The Father is a tangible glorified resurrected being. Christians don't believe it because they don't know all the truth because of their own unbelief like doubting Thomas who will not believe because their eyes have not seen but more blessed are those who have not seen but have believed....Jesus also reinforced those same teachings of man becoming like God the Father in John Chapter 15-17.
God the Father is a resurrected glorified being. Where it not so he could not dwell up in heaven while the Son of God dwelt down on the earth before he returned back to his Father up in heaven. So the Christians don't understand the truth.
Had Adam and Eve not sinned we would not have needed to have our Savior Jesus Christ and need for the atonement! Go fish....
Doublethink: the act of simultaneously accepting two mutually contradictory beliefs as correct
The fall was a good thing? Let’s try and tell that to every little boy and girl who is molested. Or let’s try and tell that to every wife who’s husband was killed at war. Or every mom who has lost a child to cancer. You all realize that the fall is the reason for every bad thing that takes place here on earth? How can that possibly be a good thing? It was not God’s plan for sin and evil to come into his perfect world. To say the fall is a good thing is to say God is the author of sin. This is blasphemy!
Ryan Mercer
Try and tell that to a little boy or girl who has been molested. “It’s okay this is all God’s plan for sin and evil to come into the world.” Or a person dying of cancer “God wanted this to happen.” Do you realize that makes no sense? To say the fall is a good thing is to call God the author of sin. That’s BLASPHEMY!
God created human beings in His image (Genesis 1:27) and since He is free, humans were created free, too. Because of our freedom to choose, the opportunity to sin will always be there. God didn’t create sin directly, He instead gave us our agency which inherently opens the door to choosing either good or evil. We can’t exercise our agency if there isn’t anything to choose from.
Ryan Mercer Your outlook is inspiring. God bless you
Ryan Mercer
Yes and according to your beliefs this was all good things. God wanted this to happen.... I don’t believe that at all by the way. I believe those are all horrible things and God wanted none of that to happen. It’s a a result of Satan deceiving Eve and Adam hearkening to the voice of his wife. God gave them freedom to choose and they choose sin over God. Satan wanted all that to happen to you not God. But according to Mormonism all those bad things were part of God’s eternal plan.
@@michaeljames5881 You act like nobody exists who can be appreciative of the effects of the fall of Adam and Eve (as we believe them) and also experience hardships. That is a fallacy. To further Olivia's point, the fall is responsible for the actions of others, only by virtue of the fall opening the way for God's spirit sons and daughters to be born with physical bodies here on this earth. The case you present would be equivalent of you being (hypothetically) responsible for the act of your child who one day grows up to be a bank robber; thus making you equally guilty of bank robbery. God is not the author of sin any more than he is the director of every decision you make in your life; of which he is not. He doesn't control me or you. We all have been given agency; and to that point in reference to the fall - this is why a key tenant of our faith is that "All men (and women) will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression."
You guys just gave me revelation on how the serpent reasoned with Eve. 🙏 so that’s how Satan does it, tell man to fulfill his potential and that their is no other way. You guys are awesome. “Glad Satan helped mankind to be more like God and lead man to do a “good thing”. Excellent reason to disobey God and give glory to Satan for causing Eve to disobey. I wonder how much of Satan teachings are taught in the temple to be more like God and fulfilled Your potential.
Ya don’t suppose that last sentence is sarcasm, do ya?
Latter Day Arbiter lol sarcasm indeed.
Eyes veiled to this very day!
The Latter days of sexism.