Atheism Logically DISMANTLED (Using Morality, Mathematics & Reason!)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ต.ค. 2024
- In this video, Frank Turek and Alex O'Connor join Justin Brierley to discuss how Morality, Mathematics & Reason each point to God. Enjoy! Also, join us (and Justin Brierley) in The Wisdom Society HERE: www.dailydoseo...
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Alex seems to miss the fact that we don’t create mathematics, it’s a language that we discovered and continue discovering.
I can’t imagine he’s arguing in good faith when he says math is a human construct. He’s trying to avoid talking about a creator so he has to assign it to humans brains
@@Absinthe1923 I most definitely agree which is exactly what makes arguments like this from the atheists so ridiculous and ignorant.
@@michaelmacdonald1889 do you think they have trouble, spiritually, saying “I see all your points and evidence of a Creator but I choose not to believe in God”
It seems like that’s at least foundation to stand on. But to say “nah, doesn’t look like anything to me” sort of undermines their argument.
@@Absinthe1923 as an atheist, i haven’t seen any evidence that the universe was “created”
@@sixfootoneistall2002 how do you apply logical and come to logical conclusions while surrounded by chaos
Alex is just trying to argue for the sake of arguing. His whole reasoning about maths are laughable.
His comment was bizarre when he asserted that math is only a human construct. The young man has a brilliant mind; he simply has to get reality and his philosophy in sync with one another.
They actually are not. When you study math deeply enough you start to comprehend that it is a total arbitrary system, and that for every phenimenon there is a version of it that can describe it. to put it simply. 10+7 can be equals to 5 in the world of the clock.
@@michelegasparini4418That's not a valid argument. 10+7 is always 17. Military time calls it 17:00. The reason we call it 5 is because we use a base 12 system for convenience. 10+7=17 is universal and unchanging.
Good back and forth. Alex is reaching hard to deny basic philosophical principles.
Evil does not come from God. It is the definition of rebellion from God 🌌✨️🦁
sadly, for christian liars, your bible has your god saying evil comes from it.
Scripture- God is Light, there is no darkness in Him at all.
@Ike-un6mc ..Amen, this is true !! "Light and Darkness cannot share together" ✨️ 🌄🌻
Evil is a corruption and distortion of what is good - one that’s possible because of free will and/or moral responsibility.
@Nathan-vt1jz ..Thanks for that additional point, Nathan ! Hope you're having a great Friday 🏖⭐️ ~Brother Tom
If Christian Apologists were the Justice League, Frank would be without a doubt Batman.
Would Cliffe be Superman? His kryptonite are folks that need to wake up and smell the coffee
John lennox would be the writer then.
@@onyx31914 you beat me to it...
Dawkins would be the Riddler b/c he's too lame to be the Joker
@victor-antonioali378 indeed lol
Can’t help but like Alex. I never heard of him until after I had returned to Christ and seen him in talks and debates with Christian’s. I’ve never once seen him be rude, condescending or hostile.
Thank you, Brandon, for these videos! I enjoy them so much and use them to help train my children in apologetics. Have a blessed day!
"Its not random"
"Okay, its random but so what"
Derrrr de durrr?
It's not random. But they are different definitions of random.
Came here to say this. Can't take someone that does this serious in a debate.
Great (short sections of a) conversation. I love the respect and care that all three parties display to each other. You can almost FEEL the anticipation of both Frank and the host WILLING Alex to reach the point in space and time where he finally says...enough running. As a former staunch Atheist, the mental gymnastics, hypocritical borrowing from God and straw man games get exhausting and eventually, if one is ultimately devoted to TRUTH rather than ideology, Christ is the ultimate answer. Thanks for sharing! I love your content. Frank is so impressive to be this sharp jet lagged. I'd be in bed with a pillow over my head. 😅
Alex imo is a troll. He has an English accent and speaks well he appears more profound than he actually is.
Just imagine a 15 year old kid on social media saying the same things Alex is saying.
Alex trolls Christians because there is money in it. He has an agenda and it’s not truth. It’s money.
Finally! Someone else thinks this. I constantly see even Christians talk about how much they like Alex and it drives me up a wall.
Yeah I agree with this tbh lol
Gee, and here I thought that Alex WAS about 15 years old. He has a boyish face and the puerile opinions to match it.
He’s certainly not a ‘non-resistant’ unbeliever, that’s for sure. He also pretends to knowledge he does not have, such as implying in dept knowledge of authors he clearly will not have been able to read in depth given his modest years.
@@vincentmcnabb939 I wont disagree with you on Alex’s scholarly achievements or lack of them.
Alex takes advantage of young people that watch him. Who are ignorant of the things he’s purports to know. They trust him because he sounds like he knows/understands what he’s talking about.
I watched as William Lane Craig gently dismantled Alex but Alex didn’t know it.
Love both Frank and Alex.
They should start a podcast together.
It really comes back to the old point that if you believe everything is relative then you have nothing to teach.
“Evolution isn’t a random process”…… whaaaaat?? 🤯🤯🤯
the mutation process is random, the selection process is not
@@sixfootoneistall2002Genuine inquiry here. If selection is not random, then what is causing it to act? What gives it its agency?
I think Turek's use of the word random means that it is not guided by a reasoning mind... In other words, it's simply happening by chance as it were. If selection is not happening by chance, then what is causing it to happen the way it does?
I just didn't understand the claim that selection is not random.
We will all find out these answers ... I choose eternal life..
I find moral relativism to be utterly unconvincing and one of thecmost off putting atheist arguments. It makes the atheist seem childish.
relativism and subjectivism are different things
It’s all a Test to See who belongs to Truth / Love
That’s the only thing that will remain the rest of burned with Fire 🔥 forever
For those who still watch Alex to this day, he would not agree with most he is saying in this interview. He might be embarrassed if he watched this interview, today. But Frank still did a great job!
There's an argument to be made that if morality is subjective and just a byproduct of evolutionary "lessons" throughout human existence, then slavery wouldn't have been abolished in this country (or anywhere else for that matter).
Why wouldn’t it have been abolished?
There is an argument to be made that if God is the moral law giver, why wasn't slavery prohibited long, long ago?
Nice to see someone presupp Alex
@@Shane_The_Confessor very young Alex here so I think he’s changed a lot especially since college. Praying that he can come to the faith but sounds like it is a problem of divine hiddenness which is probably the hardest aspect to convince an atheist
Thanks brother God is Good.
Amen to that 🙏❤️💯
It sounds like Alex should consider reducing down to the beginning and wrestle with the idea of creation - how can something come from nothing if not for a creator.
Praying for you, Alex.
Atheist hurt themselves by skipping this step. The are either blind to the creation that surrounds them or disagree there is a creation at all. Couple that with saying morality is subjective, I don’t quite understand why they feel the need to argue. Principa discordia. It’s all chaos. So why take a position at all?
Your fantasy is not God. God despises you for being an ignorant loser. Just FYI.
Frank Turek really is an impressive debater. He is such a clear thinker.
Moment he adopted moral relativism and epistemological subjectivity his position is undefendable. Why should we listen anything he says?
Exactly.
Turek didn't 'logically dismantle atheism', he just spouted theist apologist nonsense - our thoughts aren't the product of a 'random evolutionary process'. Our physical state is the product of evolution; our thoughts are the product of collectively lived and learned experiences. There's nothing quite like a grade-school-level straw man to get a conversation going, is there?!
@@ShallowsPaul ok, so basically you're saying our thoughts aren't the product of random evolutionary process, but our physical state are?
@@Loading....99.99 Yes. Would you like me to explain how that is? I'll do it anyway.
Our physical state is the product of evolution - but what our physical state does isn't. Does that make sense? Probably not, you are a christian after all.
Our thoughts are impacted by all sorts of things, such as the environment that we exist in, or even chemical imbalances in the brain, just to name a couple of a countless plethora of things. We could agree that the brain, which is a product of evolution, limits out thought potential, but that's the only impact evolution has on our thoughts.
People can get brainwashed by really silly belief systems - which has got f**k all to do with evolution! After all, if evolution determined our thoughts, how could it be that I ground my understanding using reality and you ground your understanding using mythology?
Not a straw man. You simply didn't understand what Frank said.
Are you sure you watched the video? Quite dumb comment really
@@ShallowsPaul my last comment was in the form of a question i was expecting you to answer.
This is something the atheist philosopher Thomas Nagel struggled with and was unable to circumvent (not the issue of objective morality but rather the issue of whether reason can be trusted if it is merely the product of evolution, which prioritizes survival not truth). You can tell Alex is getting cornered because he starts talking real fast mid-clip. He's a good guy, though. I appreciate him engaging with Christian apologists respectfully.
how would it being a product of evolution mean it cannot be trusted though? And if it is or isnt. I dont get how it matters to the question of gopd
@@ToastEr-f3b Because if the only principle guiding the development of our thinking is survival (per Darwinian evolution), then reason - which seeks truth and will sometimes thteaten survival - is not trustworthy. The products of thought would have survival and reproduction, not truth, as their guiding principle. It's a complex idea but that's the best "in a nutshell" version I can give you.
The argument about morality is something else entirely. They were skipping arpund a lot. Those are two separate issues.
@@Arven8This argument doesnt really seem to have merit though.
Because we can prove if our reasoning is logical and conclusive with observations and logic+reasoning.
A theist could say its because of god and an athiest could say its a by-product of evolution.
I feel like this argument just throws out the fact that human reasoning can be logical and conclusive and thats been observed.
I can look at a pile of rocks and determine how many rocks are in that pile via counting.
@@ToastEr-f3b evolution cannot reason because by evolutionary "protocol" it does not take into account reasoning. There would be no reason for bacteria to evolve into anything else. Theres no reason for civility or a thought process to avoid "murder" or predatory actions to protect a random species so that it can have millions or billions of years to evolve to then become sophisticated enough to reason.
Evolution is antithetical to reasoning due to evolution being a by-product of randomness. Randomness does not need a reason, just the environment and certain conditions are enough for evolution to theoretically succeed. Basically, to think evolution can produce reason is absurd, not to me, but to evolution itself. Evolution if it could speak would tell you that its nonsensical to think it needs a reason to do anything when what it does do is use random acts to then cause random unintentional conclusions that are nothing more than "happy accidents". Morals and reason do not and can not come from subjective worldviews. This is why atheism collapses in on itself.
@@ToastEr-f3b Well, Thomas Nagel certainly thought it was a thorny problem and so do many philosophers. I can't do the issue justice in a YT comment section.
If Alex believes reasoning is subjective, he literally just tears down his own arguments 😂
At the very root of reasoning, there must be an objective standard we use to form conclusions in making truth claims. If our reasoning is truly subjective, who's to know who is speaking truth and who's speaking lies?
Youre overthinking it.
Epistemology is the best method we have for determining truth. So just use it if you’re concerned about what is and isn’t truth or lies.
You’re welcome.
If you're explaining your worldview, and you have to say, "Well it depends on what you mean by TWO", you might have to re-examine some things lol. Good, practical philosophy follows reason. Appreciate the respectful convo here and always appreciate Dr. Turek's apologetics.
I remember watching this one almost 2 years ago (I think). Thanks to it I got to know Frank. I think Alex was 18 years old when they did this. It was my first encounter with the moral argument. After that, I have been following Frank (Cross Examined) and he helped me a lot.
I felt bad for Alex here, he was clearly cornered
"Reason is subjective". Well, is that an objective fact? No.
Then, why should I even care about the statement if it is subjective?
Because the world isn’t black and white dude. LIFE is subjective bro. Life is FULL of grey areas.
Listening to you guys, wow 😂 you spend a lot of time analyzing individual words! Speaking of concepts around and in a word that I have not even thought of. Listening to you talk I am in awe. I bet you are geniuses. I hope you continue to use your brain as good humans. Untangling language in order to prove points where the average mind didn’t even know there was a tangle.
This is a heavyweight clip. Thanks.
There are people out there who will support Alex regardless. These people have simply chosen to not believe. They will get this forum and argue, mock, and ridicule. It's bananas how much they hate the idea of God.
So true. I see atheists hating on Christians in comments all the time... Trying to throw shitty arguments.
If they truly didn't believe in God, they would've even wanna waste a single second of their life on something they believe doesn't exist.
Religion is the biggest mockery of God.
We didn't create mathematics, we discovered it and the adherence of mathematics as a language to logic and the functioning of the physical world necessitates the mind of God.
"If there are two rocks on the world, and no people. Would it still be true that there are two rocks?" ...."Well it depends what you mean!"
Evil is anything that prevents good from prevailing
Alex is playing word games and trying to present nuances that just arent there.
But he has a posh British accent so he must be correct!
@@arnoldvezbon6131😂 I was thinking the same thing.
I’m 8mins in and thinking this is the best video I’ve watched today!!😎👍🏻
I love it when us Christian’s collab with our Muslim brothers, with our Buddhist brothers, and Hindu brothers, I love hearing the teachings of our prophets, gurus, Bhodivistas and Adiyogis, we can see our teachings correlate, and strive for the same goals, peace and harmony, while everytime I hear a athiest ramble on, it’s like nails on a chalk board.
They have almost no ethics, no principles, no statutes and commandments to abide in, just do what ever you want. Say what ever you wanna say, truly the epitome of arrogance and ignorance. And they are proud of it, which is more hilarious, yet they drop like flys to alcoholism, drugs, poverty, wars, violence, crime and more. The one correlation we see from the ancient Roman philosophers and modern atheists, are the largest obituaries of suicide, this is also published by Cambridge university, atheists hold the helm of the most suicides of any civilization.
I say let them be, we stick to working on our own kind, and they can have theirs.
8:21 He doesn’t understand objectivity. If there are objective truths “about” reason and logic, that makes them objective.
9:20 Jordan Peterson moment. 😂
True 😂 “It depends what the definition of is… is”
Morally is of course subjective, only a fool would think otherwise
Evidence for the foolish. Assertions need to be evidenced, even and especially by the wise.
I was an agnostic atheist. I found that agnosticism had more to stand on than atheism. Agnosticism is an admittance *NOT* believing for the lack of knowledge of the Divine/supernatural/God; which could change with less friction. Whereas atheism utilize the limited carnal notions; which could also change, though they transition through a but of an agnostic limbo before renouncing their old ways. Which are nothing short of a last stand between cornered soldiers and their pursuing enemies.
Alex admits in the original video that we are all agnostic..... You were just an Atheist.
Seeing this back and forth it seems that Alex is arguing just to argue. He has no stance but he can’t give up the argument
I wish doctor turk would stick to this and leave politics alone.Cause he gets on my nerves with his politics, but this stuff is fire
Agreed.
Awww pour little muffin doesn't like to politics. So sad....
Don't you think his theology informs his ideology? Do you think your theology informs your ideology, or does your ideology inform your theology? Just curious...
@@chrispatterson8210 Any Christian should put their theology first. Ideology is always down stream of world view.
A loving GOD does not allow evil. HE allows free will, with caveats. Free will by its very nature involves choice. It is in the arena of choice that we are confronted with good and evil, as well as our mandate to choose.
no free will per jesus and paul, Matthew 13 and Romans 9. This god has already chosen who it will allow to accept it and then damns the rest for no action of their own.
@@velkyn1 Absolutely INCORRECT!! GOD knows who will and who won't, choose HIM. HE still says; John 3:16!! GOD desires that ALL would choose HIM and come to the knowledge of TRUTH! GOD sees the past, present and future, at the same time, thus HE KNOWS who will reject HIM and cling to their own will. Do not try to blame GOD for man's choice.
No. He allows evil lol.
If we have the free will to bring evil into the world….then he quite literally is allowing it. You just didn’t think hard enough about what you said.
That’s partially correct. God did not and does not CREATE evil. But He certainly does WILL evil to exist for His ultimate redemption and glory. If God did not will it it would not be.
@@Queenofthesouth808 Guess we will agree to disagree. GOD'S reasons and purposes are so far beyond our capacities to properly explain that I think it's pointless. Yet, all of GOD'S Creation, HE deemed Good, until iniquity was FOUND in Lucifer. Apparently, angels are endowed with choice as well.
Old debate and Alex has become a lot wiser toward the Bible. He's nearly there.
Yes he is. This discussion was roughly 7 years ago.
This video is helpful to see the common self-defeating logical fallacy with atheism, and why that is.
seems like he is saying there is no objective at all
Total nihilism is the unavoidable conclusion of ashiest materialism yet none of them have the courage of their convictions.
It seems he (Alex) is twisting himself into knots to avoid objective truth. He is essentially saying it is objectively true that all truth is subjective. When he makes this claim that truth is subjective, he isn't implying that his belief is subjective, only the truth.
@@chrispatterson8210 "[...] it is objectively true that all truth is subjective." this is literally a self contradicting sentence.
@@chrispatterson8210no. Objective truth exists. Obviously. Inherently.
It’s morality that is subjective.
Please debate Alex O'Connor
Look up the Warren-Flew Debate (book form and video available)
Secure a copy also of Thomas B. Warren’s “Have Arheist’s Proved There is No God?”
Guaranteed not to disappoint
Imagine thinking anything is more important than being able to say that graping kids is objectively wrong.
is there any clip of Turek talking about different kinds of gods or god-like beings?
*The Enuma Elish would later be the inspiration for the Hebrew scribes who created the text now known as the biblical Book of Genesis.* Prior to the 19th century CE, the Bible was considered the oldest book in the world and its narratives were thought to be completely original. In the mid-19th century CE, however, European museums, as well as academic and religious institutions, sponsored excavations in Mesopotamia to find physical evidence for historical corroboration of the stories in the Bible. ***These excavations found quite the opposite, however, in that, once cuneiform was translated, it was understood that a number of biblical narratives were Mesopotamian in origin.***
*Famous stories such as the Fall of Man and the Great Flood were originally conceived and written down in Sumer,* translated and modified later in Babylon, and reworked by the Assyrians ***before they were used by the Hebrew scribes for the versions which appear in the Bible.***
***In revising the Mesopotamian creation story for their own ends, the Hebrew scribes tightened the narrative and the focus but retained the concept of the all-powerful deity who brings order from chaos.*** Marduk, in the Enuma Elish, establishes the recognizable order of the world - *just as God does in the Genesis tale* - and human beings are expected to recognize this great gift and honor the deity through service.
*"Enuma Elish - The Babylonian Epic of Creation - Full Text - World History Encyclopedia"*
*"Sumerian Is the World's Oldest Written Language | ProLingo"*
*"Sumerian Civilization: Inventing the Future - World History Encyclopedia"*
("The Sumerians were the people of southern Mesopotamia whose civilization flourished between c. 4100-1750 BCE."
"Ancient Israelites and their origins date back to 1800-1200 BCE.")
*"The Myth of Adapa - World History Encyclopedia"*
Also discussed by Professor Christine Hayes at Yale University in her 1st lecture of the series on the Hebrew Bible from 8:50 to 14:30 minutes, lecture 3 from 28:30 to 41:35 minutes, lecture 4 from 0:00 up to 21:30 minutes and 24:00 up to 35:30 minutes and lecture 7 from 24:20 to 25:10 minutes.
From a Biblical scholar:
"Many stories in the ancient world have their origins in other stories and were borrowed and modified from other or earlier peoples. *For instance, many of the stories now preserved in the Bible are* ***modified*** *versions of stories that existed in the cultures and traditions of Israel’s* ***older*** *contemporaries.* Stories about the creation of the universe, a cataclysmic universal flood, digging wells as land markers, the naming of important cultic sites, gods giving laws to their people, and even stories about gods decreeing the possession of land to their people were all part of the cultural and literary matrix of the ancient Near East. *Biblical scribes freely* ***adopted and modified*** *these stories as a means to express their own identity, origins, and customs."*
*"Stories from the Bible"* by Dr Steven DiMattei, from his website *"Biblical Contradictions"*
------------------------------------------------------------------
In addition, look up the below articles.
*"Genesis 1:1-2 --- not a creation ex nihilo"* - Dr Steven DiMattei
*"Yahweh was just an ancient Canaanite god. We have been deceived! - Escaping Christian Fundamentalism"*
*"Hammurabi - World History Encyclopedia"*
(Hammurabi (r. 1792-1750 BCE) was the sixth king of the Amorite First Dynasty of Babylon best known for his famous law code which served as the model for others, *including the Mosaic Law of the Bible.)*
*"Debunking the Devil - Michael A. Sherlock (Author)"*
*"The Greatest Trick Religion Ever Pulled: Convincing Us That Satan Exists | Atheomedy"*
*"Zoroastrianism And Persian Mythology: The Foundation Of Belief"*
(Scroll to the last section: Zoroastrianism is the Foundation of Western Belief)
*"10 Ways The Bible Was Influenced By Other Religions - Listverse"*
*"January | 2014 | Atheomedy"* - Where the Hell Did the Idea of Hell Come From?
*"Retired bishop explains the reason why the Church invented "Hell" - Ideapod"*
Watch *"The Origins of Salvation, Judgement and Hell"* by Derreck Bennett at Atheologica
(Sensitive theists should only watch from 7:00 to 17:30 minutes as evangelical Christians are lambasted. He's a former theist and has been studying the scholarship and comparative religions for over 15 years)
*"Top Ten Reasons Noah’s Flood is Mythology - The Sensuous Curmudgeon"*
*"Forget about Noah's Ark; There Was No Worldwide Flood | Bible Interp"*
*"The Search for Noah’s Flood - Biblical Archaeology Society"*
*"Eridu Genesis - World History Encyclopedia"*
*"The Atrahasis Epic: The Great Flood & the Meaning of Suffering - World History Encyclopedia"*
Watch *"How Aron Ra Debunks Noah's Flood"*
(8 part series debunking Noah's flood using multiple branches of science)
*"The Adam and Eve myth - News24"*
*"Before Adam and Eve - Psychology Today"*
*"Gilgamesh vs. Noah - Wordpress"*
*"Old Testament Tales Were Stolen From Other Cultures - Griffin"*
*"Parallelism between “The Hymn to Aten” and Psalm 104 - Project Augustine"*
*"Studying the Bible"* - by Dr Steven DiMattei
(This particular article from a critical Biblical scholar highlights how the authors of the Hebrew Bible used their *fictional* god as a mouthpiece for their own views and ideologies)
*"How do we know that the biblical writers were* ***not*** *writing history?"* -- by Dr Steven DiMattei
*"Contradictions in the Bible | Identified verse by verse and explained using the most up-to-date scholarly information about the Bible, its texts, and the men who wrote them"* -- by Dr. Steven DiMattei
At first, Alex says evolution is not a random process, then says ok it's random... These people don't even have their world views figured out, and they want to debate.
Where is the part where it is dismantled using morality, mathematics, or reason?
It's so hard to take Alex seriously
I think it’s correct the process of evolution isn’t simply random, but maybe it should be if naturalism were true. Evolution involves emergent purpose and intent that is consistent over time without any design or awareness apparently involved.
Even the god of the Bible shows subjective morality. He says not to kill unless I command you to do so in which case you’re a good servant.
Cosmic nonsense never sounded so smooth.
The wise man will become the fool. Praise God he’s young. He’ll learn the Truth. He’s run out of excuses and arguments already. I see Saul becoming Paul in this young man. 🙏
Poor Alex, he seems to be suggesting that he is a small fluke of conscience awareness between two eternal periods of darkness. Silly boy!
The ironic thing everyone seems to miss is that the theory of evolution is not seen as the absolute truth anymore. That's been proven.
Darwinian evolution never has been seen as an absolute truth by anyone with a brain.
How then did evolution come about since it has been proven? Or is it eternal?
…..false.
@@rl7012what’s….Darwinian evolution? Evolution…as in the theory of evolution…is a fact.
Why are we using such an old video.
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Unguided evolution leads me to only one conclusion that everything is just a matter in motion (or energy exchange) or something like that and the idea of will and personhood and likes and dislikes and discussions and opinions are just byproducts of this motion or exchange, therefore meaningless and pointless constructs of the matter and energy. And that’s why I can’t be an atheist because atheism (materialistic atheism specifically) removes all reason and experience and degrades them into a simple or complex interactions in the brain, nothing more.
Alex is all over the place contradicting himself, especially when talking about reason, logic, morality and mathematics.
Fire is hot and you better believe it
Very Christian
Brother said math is a human construct. No, math is how humans convey the logic of what they are observing. Through this observation we can also then use that exact same math to make predictions. As humans study things they do not suddenly pop into existence, we are discovering the logic behind them. We are essentially reconstructing the instruction manual of the universe through science and math. Whether or not something is being observed by humans does not change the underlying rules that govern it.
Now demonstrate your god exists. You can’t.
Yep, God.
@@DM-dk7jsCreation doesn’t demonstrate a Creator?
Even at such a young age, Alex destroyed Frank.
It's a shame that Alex had to dumb down his arguments to counter Frank's silly premises.
Haha yes yes his genius level argument that math is a human construct 😂
Alex does not argue well here at all, unless you are in the ‘destroyed’ camp of reasoning.
Alex doesn't believe his own argument.
Alex seems to miss ALL facts. This is like listening to Lawrence Kraus explain how nothing is actually something. 😵💫
If our thoughts are a result of evolution process then we absolutely can still trust it because it has been consistent this whole time. It would be that consciousness is part of the evolutionary process and we evolved feelings and consciousness with the world we evolved in, of course we can trust it. Its more about us getting used to it than trusting it in the way he is speaking.
I guess that’s why people who want you dead are at the top of the food chain. I call it evil, you call it evolution.
@@Absinthe1923???
@@DM-dk7jsevolution insists the toughest survive. Many kill others for personal gain, personal survival. Evolution says this is okay to do. I do not.
@@DM-dk7js Were you replying to someone else accidently in my comment? I see you pinged someone else. If you were really asking me, what part do you not agree with?
@@maxhagenauer24 do you agree with people such as Richard Dawkins and others who agree that evolution originates from a random, natural, non-intelligent process?
Your whole argument is that we all know morality is objective. And I don’t know how you can support that claim. It seems obvious to me that morality has been subjective throughout human existence. Alex dominates this conversation and is never really refuted in this discussion
If it’s subjective don’t complain when someone steals your wallet and sleeps with your wife
Don't you believe in any objective morality at all?
Alex is a smart guy but he doesn’t sound that smart here when trying to justify mathematics are only a human conception
Sorry, I missed the bit when atheism was "dismantled". Is that just yet another clickbait title? What I see in the clip is one guy who has an elementary grasp logic and philosophy (Frank) debating with a guy who's so far ahead of him that he (Frank) can barely keep up.
We live in world that has order and a creator. When atheist won’t accept this as step 1, it comes off as dishonest or even worse as if the atheist is blind to the world around them. Why is it so hard to say “I see the design all around me, it is created, but I won’t accept God.” Atheist won’t say it so it’s hard for them to successfully debate
Especially when Alex said the laws of logic is the product of consciousness.
can you trust reason based on evolution? Yes or no.
Well, basically Alex heavily implied that laws of logic and reasoning are subjective. But if that's true, why would anybody care about his reasons for x or y? I think this could be a real problem with a naturalistic worldview, and I would like to hear Alex explain why it's still reasonable to reason.
Though I think they also talked a bit past each other on other occasions.
@@dyzmadamachus9842but atheism is true until yall finally prove god exists, so most of that is meaningless. It’s not like yall have done that yet.
Lapsed Roman Catholic Alex is angry at God.
This is a horrific exchange. It's all over the place. They can't stay on one topic for more than 15 seconds!
Yes it's hard to keep atheist focused they have to gish gallop to obfuscate from their nonsensical positions.
Alex O'Connor is more intelligent with a mustache
DISMANTLED! seems a bit much 😂 - I didn't see a lot of dismantling here. 🤷♂
Why throw your pearls before swine? Instruct a fool, what will you get?
Because it's possible that those watching are not swine and will appreciate the pearls.
Jesus is GOD and he loves you. Just open your heart to him and he'll prove himself for you. No mental gymnastics required .
You have to laugh at people with no epistemology (atheists) trying to make truth claims.
Why don’t I have an epistemology again? Wanna put that to the test?
🙏👍
Talk about getting way off topic. Proving God exists comes down to one thing. Infinite regression actually proves the existence of God. It's really that simple.
No
Alex is trying too hard to sound logical.
God is objective Satan is subjective if you get my drift. Because Satan is opposite to God.
Satan is a created being. Being in opposition to God is not the same thing as being the opposite of God. Satan is not worthy of such a moniker.
search up shelley kagan debating william lane craig on this subject...it's trivially easy to have a completely coherent and valid objective moral world-view with no appeal to a higher intelligence (by the way...if we *did* need such an intelligence, who's to say it's your particular god??).
to take turek's example about the abuses of the catholic church...I can say the victims were wronged, and the abusers were *in* the wrong, simply by recognizing that objective harm to the victims occurred, and the perpetrators were aware that they were causing objective harm. this isn't rocket science, people.
why is harming someone wrong? Isn't "harm" just an opinion of what people think feels good or doesn't feel good? If people derive pleasure from natural desires, and those desires involve harming others, why should they stop? Because they're making themselves feel good, is that not a good thing? I thought a naturalist worldview says we should follow natural desires. And why do so? If people are against your desires, why should you respect that? Is it for aiding survival, it could be, but then why is survival a good thing? Because it feels good? What if someone doesn't feel like survivng?
If that answer to is survival good is yes, then you would just argue from your end that someone should want to survive and allow others to survive? I thought the key to survival is to do what makes us feel good, but why should we want to feel good? Why should we choose to survive? What if I enjoy inflicting pain on myself and others, and why is that necessarily a bad thing? I would just be following a natural urge like everyone else.
You're left to say that evolution places no inherent value on any living individual and that valuing yourself and others or choosing not to is equally valid. If morals are placed from inherent value, rather than natural instinct, since not everyone follows that supposed instinct, then morality is objective. And who recognizes our inherent value, a supernatural being of some kind. Having an outside standard is the only way to reasonably apply the idea of humans and other created beings having inherent value. If there is no Creator, value is solely based on opinion, and why should we choose to value anything?
@@coltonstevens4339 look up the clip I referenced. consider perfectly logical humans determining a social contract, by which they must live, and they must construct the contract without knowing what their lot in life will be (for instance, they don't know if they'll be a nazi, or a victim of a nazi). please remember that we are considering perfectly rational beings who are considering this "contract."
considering there are *always* more victims than there are perpetrators, no rational person would agree that it's okay that harm is okay because it makes the perpetrator feel good, since there's a higher chance that any one person will be a victim, and not a perpetrator.
inflicting pain on yourself might be okay...but inflicting it on others would clearly violate our theoretical contract. we are all (mostly) empathetic beings who are aware when people (and animals!) suffer. we should seek to decrease suffering according to this contract.
seriously, just look up shelley kagan explaining this, it's tedious to do in a comment section...then I'd love to hear your reply!
@@coltonstevens4339Indeed!
One can always ask: So what? Because this or that is wrong. So what? Because... So what?
Without an objective ground, there will be an infinite regress of these 'so what?' questions.
@@wiffleballer28 why should I follow a social contract? I know that's what Thomas Hobbes talked about in Leviathan. But why should I agree to follow a contract? Why shouldn't morals be based on my own opinion? Why should people enforce their morals on me just because there are more people who agree with it than I do? And why should I fear consequences of being punished for not doing so? At that point it's just tyranny. There are serial killers who agree with moral relativism.
@@rekcorii an infinite regress is commonly used against the cosmological argument. Dawkins asks "who created God"? And the answer would mean there are an infinite amount of creators. You still just end up arguing for the existence of a creator, either one creator or more than one.
1:18 Everyone is always aiming their guns at the Catholic Church...
People are always going to come after those with authority.
Yup. And it will always be so.
Well, it's not like they haven't earned it.
Why does the Catholic Church even still exist? The pope recently stated that all religions are paths to God. if this is true, then why bother going through all the rigmarole that is Catholicism
I can't imagine our brain not being programmed by any intelligence.
I can...just look how an atheist tries to explain something is wrong but cannot explain where good comes from
Now prove it.
Does this kid believe his own nonsense ?
A O'Connor is NOT an Atheist and Turek is a terrible debater who does nothing but lie, deceive, avoids questions, ignores the Bible and displays his appalling ignorance. So this video is yet another in the never ending diatribe of total BS from Mr DD.
The arguments for mythology being real is fun, however...if a god exists, its not Zeus, Odin, or the Abrahamic myths. Apologists don't give enough credit to human growth & intellect. True is the reality we live in.
You literally said nothing...
The poor atheist can only argue from an Abstract position while Frank is talking about Reality.
How so?
@@patwilkins1589 He's trying to make the argument that the Laws of Reason, Logic, Math, Science, Morality, etc. are subjective solely based on the idea that intelligent beings exist and are able to perceive them. He keeps suggesting that if nobody exists, then these thing also don't exist since there is no intelligence to understand them. That's an Abstract idea.
It's basically the same concept as the age old philosophical question: If a tree falls in the woods, and nobody is there to hear it, does it make a sound? The idea that if there's nothing to hear the sound, then there is no sound because there's nothing to perceive the sound; and if there's no intelligence to perceive the Laws of Logic, Math, and Science then they don't really exist either, and everything is just subjective. This is all Abstract Philosophical Nonsense.
The fact is, we do exist and there is something intuitive within all us that enables us to recognize the differences between good & evil and right & wrong. We also have the ability to learn and understand the Laws of Logic, Reason, Math, Science, etc., so his Abstract arguments are moot and meaningless.
@@Mike_Wilson_KJV well, thanks for unpacking that!
I know this is a old vid but somebody needs to give Alex a hug. No talking, just a hug and let him know that Jesus loves him. Hiding the hurt behind all the mumbling because you want to rebel against God, build your ego behind a mask of some type of respect, while you make money off other sinners supporting your platform. Poor Kid. I think he needs to be pressed on his experience with the Catholic Church.
Absolutely. So many of these apologists will debate him and join his podcast, I wonder how many have told Alex that Jesus is knocking in the door.
How do you know that Jesus loves him? Jesus only loves his sheep !
not dismantled at all. The title is the usual lies that christians must tell about their failed apologetics.
Christian morality is demonstrably subjective, with each inventing a list of morals they claim their god wants, and yet the poor dears can't show that their god merely exists, much less agrees with them. They also have the problem that they must insist that their god doesn't have to follow these supposedly "objective" morals since they have to invent excuses why it is okay for this god to commit genocide, to kill people for the actions of others, etc. This makes their morality subjective to who someone is. it also shows their morality is little more than might equals right.
Mathematics describes the universe. No evidence any god is needed for it.
Reason is useful for humans and evolution explains it with no problem. We can indeed trust our brains since we interact correctly with reality.
“Correctly”
YAWN. Same old tired BS, combined with whataboutism.
I don’t think maths can equate how silly your stance is… ;)
how do you know that we interact "correctly" if there is no objective standard ?
"Morality is subjective because ppl disagree about it."
My good fellow, if I'd take your reasoning and apply it correctly, you just found that the laws of physics are subjective, because physicists disagree about them. Does this sound right to you?
You see, this christian apologists you so much dislike are very often brilliant philosophers. You can learn many merry things if you'd just humble yourself to listen carefully.
"It's either directed by an outside intelligence or it's not"
"If it's not directed by an outside intelligence, it's random"
Horribly flawed logic.
Evolution has more evidence to support it than any other field of science.
No amount of your mental gymnastics is going to change that.
Sorry that it does fit with your narrative.
I believe in God as well, & I also believe in Evolution.
I believe in God, along with teleological evolution.
It’s not really flawed.. either something is designed or it isn’t…. No middle ground.. if it’s not designed, then yes it’s random… “evolution has more evidence to support it than any other field of science..” lolol no it doesn’t mate… far far from it.
If evolution existed in such a large scale as is commonly thought why then are there no two celled organisms? You cannot go from something very incomplete in a single cell all the way to a complex organisation without a middle ground that does not exist. Evolution is about survival of the fittest but having an incomplete organism (which must have existed if we think animals came from single celled beings) does not logically make sense
Frank Turek is suggesting hypothetically that evolution that came about without an intelligent designer is random, not simply the process of evolution by itself. Frank would argue that evolution that came from an intelligent designer is not random.
I think the point Alex tries to make is that evolution is not random in the same way as e.g. throwing a dice is.
There are some non-random rules in place, which select certain random events.
The point Plantinga et al try to make, is that those rules select on survivability, not on having true knowledge about reality. (Please note that Plantinga's argument is much more sophisticated and elaborate than the one liner I put here)