This Date is Still a Problem - Fallout Show Lore
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ต.ค. 2024
- An Executive Producer of the Fallout Show said during an interview that Shady Sands was destroyed after the events of Fallout: New Vegas. But this can't be true: the show itself tells a different story.
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I read the timeline as saying Shady Sands falls in 2277, but the timeline continues on for a short stretch before the Nuke drops.
The script for the "The End" states Maximus's age as 19 at the start of the show, and 6 when the fridge scene happened. That would mean he was born _IN_ 2277. This means that Shady was in fact blown up six years after the stated date, in 2283, two years after the events of New Vegas which occurred in 2281.
Sources:
1. The wiki page for Shady Sands, third paragraph, sixth reference attached to the date 2283.
2. The wiki page for "The End" script in the notes section.
3. "The End" script itself, as provided by the wiki on "The End" scripts page.
They can say in season 2 that new capital of NCR was renamed to Shady Sands in honor of the destroyed city.
And in New Vegas they were talking about this (new) Shady Sands.
That's ridiculous. Then why they did not show it in the history lesson a.k.a chalkboard drawing? In what year the *new* Shady Sands was found? and don't forget Todd literally said the the nuke was fell AFTER new vegas, then why there's TWO shady sands before the nuke (year 2081)?
@@eegoiiThe people in the vault have been isolated for over a decade at this point if the 2277 date is to be believed. So its reasonable to assume they wouldn't know about the new city.
@@eegoii "...Todd literally said the the nuke was fell AFTER new vegas..." damage control. Because they messed up. They blew it. They goofed.
I agree that it would be ridiculous just like you said, but Todd Howard has already tried to retcon this entire issue to preemptively get ahead of the continuity errors, so I wouldn’t be surprised if something like this would happen again in a similar fashion like the op stated. But then again, we don’t know how much creative control Todd Howard has over the show’s story elements.
I want to ask; why does this lore continuity error even exist? Is it because the show’s writers made a little oopsie? Is it because the show writers didn’t take into account the deep lore of New Vegas because it wasn’t created by Bethesda (yet they are still willing to use assets as seen in the final shot of the show)? Is there a different reason entirely to tell a different storyline? That’s what I would like to ponder.
@@ez-bakeoven6797 What's the point assuming Shady Sands was fall and then WROTE "The Fall of Shady Sands" in 2077? If they knew Sands Sands fell in 2077, how did they not knowing about the new Shady Sands? The show is 15 year after the nuke (if we following the game's lore of the great war). And this is still not answering why there's 2 shady sands in 2081, if what Todd said is the canon.
Why would Lucy's dad feel the need to nuke Shady Sands if it had already "fallen"? I bet they'll tell us that after the Shady Sands in the TV show was destroyed, the NCR just renamed another city to Shady Sands and made THAT the new capital. Continuity preserved.
I subscribe to the idea that it's the result of the couriers choice in lonesome road. You get to choose who to nuke.
That's possible, but wouldn't the creation and naming of a new capital be depicted in that series of historical events that is being taught in that classroom?
@tyler4418 I accept it as a difficult problem either way. It was never meant to be canon, but they decided to make it canon once they got into the project, from my understanding. Probably a small thing that slipped through, but I genuinely agree with you. The BEST solution I can come up with is the fact that in NV, I have an actual option to nuke both Caesar and the NCR, and we don't seem to see either faction around anymore. It loosely, VERY loosely, all works out with mostly only small errors that way.
I hope not, that's such a stupid fix, I'd prefer some over convoluted fix that makes it seem they planned it all along before I'd want that 😭
there also isnt 1 universe. Each video game has choices you can make to alter the universe.
@Oxhorn If Lucy is 20, she was born in 2276. [Norm was going to be the older brother.] Lucy felt the warmth of the sun at 6, so 2282 and she had to be there a while because Lucy has a vivid memory of the warmth and sunlight.
[HOW DID SHE GET SO GOOD AT SHOOTING????? NOTHING IN THE VAULT BUT STATIONARY TARGETS"????' played golf since i was 5~, you get good quick at a young age']
Fall of shady sands in 2277 seems correct. Rose got Lucy and Norm to Shady Sands in 2277. The fall NOT the impact. If Rose took Norm and Lucy at such a young age to not remember. Hank probably gave Rose a ghoul enhancer thing to keep her quiet, because he couldnt kill her. Hank had to find a bomb and find waste landers to help. So give him a year or two, to get everything going. The bomb dropped on Shady Sands around 2282-2283 I wanna look at the dates for vault 31 again to come up with more or how long the plague lasted. ALSO ALSO that timid nerd guy always with Betty is sus.
Hope this comment gets disproven or Oxhorn deletes this video and makes another explaining the time line.
@@McWillis yeah I was thinking about the ages of Lucy and Maximus. How that could connect to the years around Shady Sands. Good catch.
My only problem with this is that Lucy is clearly not a 1 year old baby in 2277. She's shown as a girl approximately 4-8 years old. Otherwise I am in agreement that the search for the children and the destruction by Hank are two separate events spread out by some time because it isn't like Hank had a nuclear weapon just laying around. Use the plague to excuse the search is one thing, but the plague didn't go on for 4 years, so they have to be two different events. The other thing is Lucy's memories as a child are suspect, but if she spends 4 years in Shady Sands from child to young lady her memories would be a lot more vivid and hard to reconcile with vault life. She could not have been in Shady Sands very long.
I 100% believe that, when making the show, they intended 2277 to be the year Shady Sands was destroyed. But I also think the writers noticed their mistake shortly after the series started airing, and are now coming up with solutions to fix the lore. Todd has already confirmed that solution won't be decanonizing New Vegas, so I suppose we'll see what they come up with. I think the best explanation so far is the "Fall of Shady Sands" being a more societal fall. The occupation of Vegas taking so much manpower and resources that it started a downward spiral in the core territories. If we add the House ending to New Vegas on top of that, it would explain how a single nuke destroyed the NCR. It wasn't the single cause, more the straw that broke the camel's back. The quarantine excuse still works if Shady Sands is destroyed in 2281, as the Vault staying in lockdown for 4 years is believable enough and would just mean Hank and Betty took a long while to find out where Rose went.
TL;DR This is a lore mistake, but Fallout is no stranger to lore mistakes. It'll get patched up soon enough.
This right here, except I think they didn't even notice until the show released. Seems like they just picked that "reclamation day" would fall 200 years after bomb dropped and went with it all the way up until the show was released. If they had caught the mistake anytime before the show's release, they could have digitally edited the date on the blackboard, and nobody would have been the wiser. The fact that they didn't says to me that they didn't catch it. Coupled with how lackluster (imo) Todd's and the writers' attempts to retcon the show's lore based on this little mistake have been, it paints a picture that they hat to scramble to make up for not having noticed this little detail even after having written New Vegas directly into the plot. Like you said, it'll get sorted out, but it won't be pretty from a writing perspective (it'll be hard to disguise the retcon) because they didn't catch it in time.
Think of “the fall” like how we talk about Rome. There’s many dates you could call the “fall of Rome” but Rome didn’t cease to exist on that exact date.
But if you said the fall of Rome happened like 50 years before it actually fell, that would be odd. I wouldn't assume you meant "the beginning of the decline of rome" If you said it fell
But if Rome got nuked on an exact date, you would presumably put that date on a chalkboard timeline.
You're just ignoring the whole video
I definitely saw it like this originally. Maybe something massive happened on the dated bit which people called 'the fall' then the final nail in the coffin was the bomb. Someone nonchalantly could have just put the drawing or as a 'well I don't need to explain it any further'
Decline= fall Jesus Christ 🤦♂️@@dillonblair6491
Events on a timeline occur sequentially as they're written along the line. All because there's no date under the mushroom cloud doesn't mean it's happening simultaneously to the previous event.
Forget Shady Sands, The hole faction just doesn't exist in the region.
Going by your video, I think the date in the show was just a mistake and they had to immediately correct it. Also they would have to rewrite some dates for Season 2. I wish they got it right the first time but still at least they’re trying to fix it. I’ll wait for season 2 to explain more. Plus I’m glad they didn’t pull a Star Wars Acolyte. Those people just stuck with massive lore/timeline errors and insult the fanbase for pointing it out.
My biggest issue with the lore is the date 2277 and Even worst is the setting. The geography is all messed up. Shady sands is about 5 to 10 miles east of Yosemite national park. That’s 419 miles from Santa Monica. Another MAJOR Issue is the Master in 2161! HELLO vault 33, 32, 31 is right there in the L.A boneyard! The master had no problem finding prime Normals stock. The BOS is Poorly written
Yeah I have issues with the locations of 33, 32, and 31, but there were a lot of undiscovered vaults for centuries so... who knows. The BOS is perfectly written, though. I have never had any illusions that the BOS is made up of zealots and jerks with superiority complexes. "Technofetishists" I believe House calls them.
I think the obvious answer is that they intended it to be in 2277 to echo the Great War in 2077 with symmetry in the years. But after the show released they realized that that couldn’t happen so they hastily retconned the show.
I still think fall of shady sands means decline.
2277 is when the first war with the legion happens. This war could have rocked the city. I imagine political infighting, riots as loved ones were drafted and died fighting Caesar.
The book could have been left there because the student is leaving with their family to move to the Mojave as an emergency draft.
The plague of 2277 could have been the excuse Lucy's mom used to leave the vault initially. 2277 Lucy lives in shady sands. 2281 or 2282 hank finds her and nukes shady sands when her mom doesn't leave.
Iirc the show takes place in 2296 this means if she was born in 2277 in the city she is 19 during the show. If she was born in the vault still she could be older.
exactly, the fall of the Roman Empire is not just one year but over time.
This makes sense to me. Maybe this is what they'll go with. I just hope they didn't decide to also collapse New Vegas as a city before we see it in the show.
No, because Lucy and Norm left the vault with Rose. Norm is younger.
This is a stretch and you have to do a lot of inferring and guesswork as opposed to what is obviously being implied
I'd assume that other members of vault 33 who originally came from vault 31 probably covered for Hank during his quest to return with his family. It could have taken awhile to find shady sands then recon the town and find his family then either sabotage the nuclear reactor powering the town or find a nuke transport it to the town to blow it up after his failed attempt to convince Rose to return so he grabbed Lucy and Norm (being kids they'd go with him without many issues) and ran back to the vault
12:39 Moldaver say's Hank "burned that city to the ground" . this is just a theory. so what if he set a fire to distract people so he could grap Lucy and Norm but the fire got out of control and the NCR wanting to save face and not broadcast there embarrassment that there capital city was gone so easily that it was quietly transferred the capital somewhere else and chose not to tell those on the frontlines whom were already demoralised. And the nuke was someone else entirely
It might be an error, BUT: “The fall of shady sands” has not yet been defined in the show. It’s likely a separate (but related) event before the explosion. On the board, the blast is clearly shown to happen after ‘the Fall’ - as the arrow continues from the 2077 date to the blast image. It may be days after, or years after. But, if the bomb happened in 2077 then imo they would have put the date in front of that bomb image (since all the other events have the dates in front of them).
I agree it’s not helpful to have no date in front of the bomb image - but, perhaps they don’t want to spoil the twist / story so are keeping it vague (TBC!)
So, in other words, the “Fall” could have been a separate (but related) precursor event: rebellion, raid, or some other major disruptive event - causing the collapse (“fall”) of normal society at Shady Sands in 2077 (hence the library book stamps stopping then). & This (currently undefined) ‘fall’ could set into motion events that led to a nuke detonation years later.
The only potential issue I can see with this is that if there was such a precursor event / rebellion (“fall”) in 2077, it’s odd it’s not referred to in New Vegas. Although, again, it hinges on what the ‘fall’ was & who knows about it.
I think fans put more thought into lore continuity than the makers of these shows ever do.
So, you believe that Hank was able to walk to Shady Sands, get his children, walk back to the Vault to secure his kids, plan, and then destroy a city in less than a year? Also, food for thought, Hank and Betty could easily leave the vault without the vault residents knowing by lying and saying there was an Overseer's meeting in vault 31, then exited from there.
@@jvazacas Hank left during the time period everyone was locked in their rooms due to someone "sick mess" oxygen just doesn't pay attention
@SuperCasperman quarantine would have been after he got his kids back to the vault. Lucy clearly remembers the quarantine, suggesting it happened after they returned, not before.
@@jvazacas Lucy was a child and her memories are unreliable.
@jaysondemers8145 and yet, I have memories from a super young age, 2 in fact, and my father looked at me and said, you remember that? I'm in my 40s btw. So no, not unreliable at all.
I’m waiting for season 2 since it involves New Vegas.
If it isn’t explained or even brought up, then I will conclude that it’s a continuity error.
Ox, it's Todd Howard we're talking about here. Never. Believe. His. Lies.
I think you're spot on, here. Conveniently, 2277 is a nice, round, 200 years after 2077. Coincidence? This is basically what i've thought all along. Barring some outrageous reveal in future seasons; the justification interview seems more like a backtrack after a controversy and not a cleverly worked explanation. It could turn out to be something extremely well thought out and surprise us all - but this reminds me of the seemingly unnecessary changes made in the first season of The Witcher. At the time they were written off as small mistakes or inconsequential changes and/or oversights. The following seasons deviated wildly from the established story and the quality drop-off was immense. The first season of Fallout was fun and beautiful and the characters are beyond what we could have hoped for - but some of the writing seems a little lazy and, simultaneously, a little too clever. Fingers crossed this isn't foreshadowing a similar deviation.
I think the writers meant it to be 2277 and are now retconning after backlash. Which I am okay with. There is enough wiggle room for them to change their minds yet and correct things.
I hope the show specifically and directly addresses the issue. The interview isn't enough.
Unless communication was so bad the inhabitants of New Vegas didn't know and the NCR didn't tell anyone.
This is why I watch you. Every time I say something about the date or the LA boneyard everybody thinks I’m being negative and not just settling for new content. Fallout NV needed a sequel not a show that messed up the lore
I believe that NV is the weakest in the series(not counting 76) mostly gameplay wise but I agree. A sequel with a new engine and the same if not better writing could have been the closest to a perfect fallout experience.
NV is awesome but it doesn’t need a sequel(NV2). Let’s go to a different state. Let’s take a break from the East Coast and the West. Let’s do Texas or Louisiana.
@@Steel-101 I’d support this 1000% Louisiana would be awesome
@@andrewshrader6454 I’m in the Texas group. I’m a Texan(born in San Antonio & raised in Alvin/Galveston). Plus NV does mention some NCR forces in Texas. Still it would be cool to have some Apocalypse Gumbo in New Orleans lol 😂
@@andrewshrader6454Like New Orleans?
Given the layout and context of what is written on the blackboard in the childrens classroom - which is clearly depicting a series of historical events that is being taught to the children of that classroom - Shady Sands was destroyed in 2277. Which means the people making the show made a pretty big lore mistake (and not the only one mind you). A mistake that either makes the show non-canon, or New Vegas. Given the other lore mistakes (the Ghoul juice), I lean in the direction of the show being non-canon. I like the show don't get me wrong, but it just has too many inconsistencies with the games. And like Ox, I have yet to hear a convincing argument for the date depicted on the blackboard.
What i don't get is why they couldn't have just set the show 5 years later? That makes me think its either a mistake they made twice and refuse to go back on or that they for some reason wanted to intentionally fuck up the new vegas lore. I doubt they would do that even if people at bethesda dislike new vegas.
Let's be honest here if they do screw up the timeline and wipe out Fallout New Vegas a large chunk of the people won't watch the season 2😂 remember this is the error where companies are spending 200 million and losing because of creative Integrity AKA The Joker two😂
the SHOW is set in 2296, after the events of every game so far.
Even if the year does end up being a continuity error, just remember Todd said long ago that what is in the games comes first for lore.
Todd Howard popping up on the securitron killed me 🤣
My opinion on the matter is quite simple.
Todd the Toad, with his over-inflated ego, could never stand the fact that someone else made a better Fallout game than he did and now he's finally got the chance to remove his hated Fallout New Vegas from the canon and tell his own version.
I also fully expect that the second season of Fallout will further ensure that New Vegas is removed from the canon. After that, they can just stand there and say that the game is already so old and no longer fits into the current timeline. That's it.
The man is a notorious liar and we saw that again in this interview.
I just don't think the lore was important to bethesda or the show writers. Bethesda doesnt know how to handle lore, not since Oblivion and thats mostly just because of Morrowind.
Their apparent policy with lore is that it should be discarded if it gets in the way of telling a new story.
Just my personal headcanon, the way I explained this problem was the nuclear explosion happened in 2077, but because of the cold fusion and power being restored to shady sands that shady sands remained the capital of the NCR. Also, maybe the plague of 2077, Lucy was already back in the vault and the destruction of Shady Sands was because Lucy's mother was trying to retrieve her children from Hank. As a last resort from having the Vault's plan ruined, Hank and Betty destroyed Shady Sands. This could make Lucy older than being a child. My only problem with this I think is I'm actually not quite certain the current date within the show. Maybe I've just overlooked it. But if the show takes place before the events of New Vegas then the power being restored to shady sands would mean the seat of government is still in shady sands. Maybe it's too simplistic of an explanation but that's my personal headcanon. Someone please correct me if I'm way off.
I see something different in the school locker scene: the book is not checked out in Nov 2276, rather it is due in Nov 2276. This implies that the book was already late in terms of return in 2277. Why wasn't it returned? We don't know. However, unless the bombs dropped in Nov 2276, this remains an unknowable problem. Hence, there is no reason to believe that the book wasn't returned in 2277 because of the bombs; the book was already past its due date in Nov 2276.
Well said
They also moved Shady Sand's location slightly. It's supposed to be up in the mountain, where all the water is once nukes destroy all the reservoirs and aqueducts. Wheras here it's seemingly in metro LA.
Given the lack of NCR presence in the region, I'm inclined to think that the First Legion War weakened the local defenses and Shady Sands was sacked by raiders. It wasn't destroyed, but it was devastated. The NCR likely pulled out of the region (akin to Rome pulling out of Britain, perhaps, with plenty of NCR loyalists remaining but official presence being withdrawn) during the following years, which culminated in Hank blowing up the city.
Two other references also imply 2277 as Shady Sands destruction year:
According to Vault 31's records, Hank transferred from Vault 31 in 2271. Hank transferred to marry Rose and have kids, so likely Lucy was born within a year. Lucy says she thought the sun in the vault was real until she was 6, because she remembered the real sun in Shady Sands. If she were born in 2271, then she stopped believing the sun was real in 2277.
Birdie says she was 11 when Shady Sands was destroyed, which would make her 30 at the time of the show. The actress is 47, but I think she could plausibly pass for being ~30, but not for being 26 or younger to fit a 2281 or later date.
The first thing doesn't disprove much. I don't think anybody is disputing Rose, Lucy, and Norm were in Shady Sands in 2277. The question is whether Hank destroyed it in that same year. As for the second thing, Birdie survived the wasteland with radiation, raider attacks, and not much in the way of skin care. Go look at how people looked at age 26 before modern technology. They looked ooooooold.
1. Credits don't mean anything in a canonical sense and they're artistic interpretations, at best.
2. The book clearly states "Due Date", which would mean the book would have to be returned in November of 2276, not necessarily that it was checked out in November of 2276.
3. Lucy and Norm *very obviously* were not in Shady Sands when Hank and Betty blew it up, and given that her memory is unreliable, we can't take her word as gospel about Shady Sands.
4. The chalkboard is a flowchart. If the showrunners wanted us to think that "The Fall of Shady Sands" meant that it was nuked, then only that date would have an arrow, but it clearly goes through every single date provided, which indicates that your eyes are supposed to follow the line in that way.
5. The only real issue is the billboard outside the crater and what it states, and that Shady Sands was originally placed in the High Desert region of California, somewhere near Fresno, maybe.
Given all that, no, the date is not a problem, but their presentation of the facts is. Using these pieces, and Todd Howard's interview, we can develop an understanding of what happened in 2277. Regarding the book, chalkboard, current speculation, and the lore of FNV, I interpret the "Fall of Shady Sands" to be how the expansion and war in the Mojave to be the single most expensive operation the NCR ever faced, to such a degree that they couldn't even fund their schools. Regarding Lucy's recollection of her life in Shady Sands, as stated, she's clearly unreliable, and we cannot take her word at face value. Until season 2, we are left with two options: either Hank brought his kids back in 2277 and waited 4 years to bomb the city, or he did that in 2281 and retaliated ASAP.
Unless due to the nature and lies from vault tec the chalk board is deliberately misleading, hank and family came from one of the other adjoining vaults, one other thing i was wondering is what happened to all that power from Helios one ?
being as the ncr beat the brotherhood and took over the plant, but does that mean the ncr still could not figure out how to use it ?
Warhammer 40k has taught me to not nit-pick "exact" dating, as even the people writing stuff down are only human and prone to getting numbers wrong. Trying to accurately timeline things like historic England is an absolute riot of missing years, legitimate reboots of the whole thing, missing months, missing decades, all because the Earth doesn't perform an exact 365 day orbit, much less an exact 24 hour rotation, and God help your calculations if you are on a different planet, or stuck on a planet that is also stuck in the warp, where time has no meaning. Back on Earth though, these microscopic errors compound literally on the daily and once you expand stuff by 200+ years it becomes a real problem. With this being said, I don't blame historians for being off as much as 10 years when trying to timestamp stuff with a pip boy that may or may not have been turned off for several years, and you only have to miss a few years of no one counting for it to be 2280+ instead of 2277. And this can be a local problem as well for following the paper-trail, in a world that has precious little paper.
It just works
Anyone who still trusts Todd Howard is just their own worst enemy
I agree with the others who say that a second location was renamed to Shady Sands after the original was nuked. That was my head cannon the entire time.
Maybe it's a timeline that turns into a flowchart for digestion purposes. Our history teacher was doing this with historically recent events that hadn't fully settled yet. Frankly, so long as they don't pull the "occasional ding in the old chronometer" line from Codsworth in Fo4, I'd be satisfied.
1) Maybe some unexplained tension between them and the Brotherhood started another war in 2277 and some damage caused the NCR to move the seat of government marking the “fall”. Moldaver remains in charge of the city and keeps it running as good as she can and then some time in 2280-81 Rose runs off with the kids and causes Hank and Betty to pursue them and in the process a deal is struck with the Enclave (shown to still exist in Ep 1) to make the Shady Sands nuclear event possible. And while the NCR may not be shown at their full might they’re still shown to exist so obviously they packed and moved to preserve continuity of government.
Probably a stretch. Todd just doesn’t want to admit that he and the show producers had no rapport whatsoever.
2) I don’t know why I numbered these.
Still sad all my loot was stashed in Shady Sands now it gone😢
It’s actually an easy fix all they have to say is the downfall started in 2277 and pretty much right after the events of new Vegas shady sands gets nuked.
I don't recall that they speak the date out loud so they should just edit the scene and change the date. That kind of stuff has already been done in other shows
Did you watch the video? The entire video is about how this was specifically mentioned and corroborated by multiple different parties within the show and it's directly relevant to the core plot of the show.b
Yes, I've seen the video. Check the comment from @LegitTapeSplicer. They can edit the show to fix this, just like the games -- at least for the people that haven't bought it physically
@@afunnymouth6449 Yes but at no point does anybody ever state in the show, not even on the chalkboard, that Shady Sands was for sure nuked in 2277. The Plague story is real but does not directly mention anything about nuclear destruction of Shady Sands and the book is a nothingburger considering how often that thing has been checked out and not returned for YEARS. The chalkboard is the only thing people can point at as a possible date for the nuking of Shady Sands but even that gives enough wiggle room to explain away.
Okay after some thought I can make 2077 work with the official timeline. It seems to me the only ones that are traveling from the NCR are you working for the military or government officials. It is possible is that the government is keeping it silent about the destruction of shady sands. Basically the military doesn't know that shady Sands has fallen. Most of the military has been there for decades, and they're already losing ground. The message that shady sans is following would be a Deathstroke to the New Vegas initiative. So no one tells them, and the military in Vegas believed that the NCR still strong. The reason no reinforcements are coming, it's because there's no reinforcements. The soldiers in Vegas maybe the strongest regiment in all of the NCR right now
Todd has been jealous of what FNV achieved for years. He hates that it was held in such high regard and jumped at the first chance to mess with the continuity and potentially make the lore irrelevant.
12:39 Moldaver say's Hank "burned that city to the ground" . this is just a theory. so what if he set a fire to distract people so he could grap Lucy and Norm but the fire got out of control and the NCR wanting to save face and not broadcast there embarrassment that there capital city was gone so easily that it was quietly transferred the capital somewhere else and chose not to tell those on the frontlines whom were already demoralised. And the nuke was someone else entirely
Im thinking that some poor overworked prop master wrote the wrong number down mistakenly.
I still worry that Bethesda holds some resentment towards New Vegas for it being a successful game that was not made by them and I can't help but feel that the destruction of Shady Sands and the weakening of the NCR was done with a little ill will in mind. The again I could be wrong.
Plus, the destruction of New Vegas itself in the end credits also kind of feeds that idea, like, which ending happened then? "Who cares?, it's all gone now anyways"
I think if that was the case, they would have made the show in another area to avoid mentioning NV at all.
I still cant belive he got all the way to Vegas on one Fusion core. When i wear a powerarmor in game i have to swap it all the time.
It's simple: the show breaks lore, regardless of whether it was destroyed before or after. It’s still an issue. And let's not even talk about other problems, like Shady Sands being inside the Boneyard, the Master skipping Vaults 31, 32, and 33, and the whole Vault-Tec 'table of evil' scene.
Exactly.
Lotta people seem to be unable to understand that sometimes New Material can simply just be wrong.
@@mojomittsor that the old material is now rewritten. it’s not stuff that actually happened so there’s infinite wiggle room. it’s okay if things change.
@@TheStarsAndGod Not when such things are a pillar of something and many works rely on was set up.
So, I have several attempted explanations on the plague of 2277 story. Firstly, as you and others pointed out, it was a lie perpetrated by Hank and Betty so they could leave the vault and find Rose and the children. I don't think that's in doubt. Lucy was clearly NOT THERE, and as a six year old child (allegedly) in 2277 her memories would be suspect anyway. She has nothing but positive happy memories of both her mother and her father so she was clearly not aware of any spousal issues between them. Children are capable of recognizing tension between adults, especially their parents, and since Rose and Hank would not be on happy terms with each other, it would have been palpable for even a child. Thus, I think Rose snuck her out of the vault while she and Norm were asleep. They were not aware ever that they were on the surface. And therefore her recollection of anything plague of 2277 related is an unreliable narration. Most likely she was told all this by other vault dwellers, who were unknowingly in on the lie, and Hank himself who was the perpetrator. Betty as well keeps up the lie with Norm later, including that she "buried" Norm's mother. Clearly Betty is using "buried" in a very different connotation here. Anyway, the point is Lucy only has stuff she's been told as a second hand hearsay provider, and so what she tells the Ghoul is obviously wrong, which is why the Ghoul immediately calls BS on her story. But here's where I am going with this: the plague of 2277 does not intrinsically point to the destruction of Shady Sands, all it does is point out a time when Lucy, Norm, and Rose were not there (and in Shady Sands, perhaps not there very long, because otherwise she would have a lot of memories of Shady Sands which she could NOT relate to Vault 33 life). I theorize that Hank and Betty used the cover story of the plague to leave the vault to FIND Rose and the Children, not necessarily to destroy Shady Sands yet. Based on everything we know, Hank had no idea Shady Sands existed, which is another issue because why did Rose go there?, so as you've pointed out in Hank's video, his world view of VaultTec and Bud's Buds plan supremacy was thrown into the woodchipper and he had to do something about it. I think there are two plans in place here: The first was to leave the vault to find the children and the second was a much longer plan to destroy Shady Sands. I mean, we don't know where he got a nuclear weapon to do this in the first place. Did he have a Fat Man just laying around? Clearly not. He would have had to go find resources to help him accomplish this goal. I refuse to believe Vault 31 has access to nuclear arsenals without evidence and I still refuse to believe VaultTec was responsible for the nuclear holocaust. So where the heck could he have gotten a bomb to drop on Shady Sands? In the games, we can meander around the wasteland from one corner of the map to the other in a couple of in-game days but in the real world that's not very feasible. Even the show, as fiction is wont to do, timeskips a bit as people move around to various locations, all of which could be really close together or could be really far apart. I would find it very odd 3 connected vaults with a very obvious opening exposed out into parts of Los Angeles would have gone unnoticed for 200 years by the denizens of Shady Sands or any other township around there or raiders if it were that close. So there was going to be some traveling around, on foot, as Hank and Betty searched for the children. He found them, and probably brought them home. He would have had to, because there was no way he was going to nuke the place while his CHILDREN were in any kind of danger. Thus, I think somewhere in 2277 he left and found the children and brought them back. Then over the course of the next 4 years, searched for a way to destroy Shady Sands. Maybe he finally caught wind of a little place near Nevada called The Divide and learned the story of two Couriers who settled their differences over what it means to form a nation in the middle of a multi-nuclear weapon arsenal silo, both of which decided to just leave the stupid place active after resolving their differences (either by one having died or leaving with an understanding). Remember, in the Lonesome Road DLC you have the OPTION as a player to NUKE either the Legion, the NCR, or BOTH with the arsenal at The Divide. What if, canonically, neither Courier Six nor Ulysses were able or willing to nuke anything, and those missiles were still there just waiting, but targeted on their respective locations (by Ulysses). All Hank would have to do is find that place and push a button and Shady Sands would be gone. You'll note that he only destroys SHADY SANDS not the entire NCR. As far as we know, no other nuclear weapons were used on The Boneyard, The Hub, Vault City or any other location in the game. I think Hank only wanted to destroy Shady Sands both because Rose was still there and because of his refusal to accept civilization could flourish without Bud's Buds, though this would call into question what he was doing above ground if he was somehow not able to know the expanse of the NCR, the success (or faillure?) of New Vegas, and The Legion, to say nothing of the East Coast US stories of The Brotherhood and whatever happens in Boston. Hank was very clearly myopic in this case: Shady Sands was the evil, capable of taking everything from him, corrupting his vault dwellers as they did his wife and almost his kids. Anyway, long story short: Hank and Betty go out to find Shady Sands in 2277 to get the kids back, Rose refuses to come home (HOW Hank gets the kids back without the entire NCR defending them is another story to think about and might have something to do with the "fall" of Shady Sands beyond nuclear detonation), but takes the kids safely back to Vault 33, then concocts a plan to destroy Shady Sands, which happens later. That's my theory. All of it happening in 2277 is unrealistic EXCEPT in video game logic, which we do not have here with a TV series, no matter how faithfully it follows the games.
1 - Having a problem with broken lore and key components of the story being changed does not make someone negative. It's more that we have an eye for detail and immersion breaking details stand out more to us.
2 - Even putting the SS problem aside there are still multiple other discrepancies in the show. They are constantly pointing to 2277 being the major event date. Why has not one other piece of info shown 2282 or even 2283 instead. The 2277 is constantly thrown in your face to intentionally sway your mind.
3 - The NCR had 5 New States combined to make up the faction. The fracturing of the NCR starts in 2281due to the President acting like a typical power hungry political leader of the old world. The courier wakes up in Oct of 2281 and goes on a major journey with the 2nd battle of Hoover Dam taking place in 2282. The events of NV couldn't have happened at all if SS was demolished in 2277.
4 - How the hell does a child in a fridge survive a freaking nuclear blast?
5 - I can accept a lot of things in video games and shows/movies but I always think it's so absolutely ridiculous that so many people supposedly had access to nukes, could figure out how to launch them and that there were still so many intact after the world destruction and even many decades later.
Well hopefully they explain it next season, even if its just a small comment.
Being that the games have multiple endings,i believe our canon is different from the shows canon and think about it that way.
When it comes to canon, the foremost source is the actual IP, that is to say the show, game, movie, or whatever other medium through which a story is being told. Often times, the creator of a work tries to explain things away to sate things like continuity errors or simple questions, but they can make a mess of things by coming up with reasons or explanations that either don’t make sense or outright contradict what is already established canon. And I’ve previously tried to explain it away in my own headcanon that maybe the people of New Vegas were unaware of the fall of Shady Sands, seeing as there’s likely little communication between the cities, but that doesn’t work at all either. Even if somehow the residents of New Vegas hadn’t heard that Shady Sands was nuked, which is unlikely, no one who actually works with or for the NCR acts as though this event happened or even mentions it. You’d think Crocker would be fairly aware that his higher ups are nothing but nuclear material now, or that troops freshly brought in from the NCR would tell at least their fellow soldiers “hey, our capital is gone.” Worst of all, President Kimball visiting Hoover Dam shows, primarily, that he’s still alive and that the seat of the government is in decent enough shape to be able to send the top guy in the Republic to the site of an upcoming battle to boost troop morale. Like you said in a previous video, I’d the capital of the NCR had been nuked but the government was still around, you’d think they would prioritize their homeland as opposed to expending a considerable amount of resources to try and expand into what is clearly a very hostile environment. So I don’t know what possible explanation Season 2 could have that would remedy this without creating even more problems.
As far as the timeline goes, I have always said exactly what you said at 16:55.
Long story short, the board started off as a timeline, but when the person came to the explosion, they pointed to it after the date because they don't know the date of the explosion. The other two points you raised are interesting.
The library book could have been left in the locker for that period of time because the person who checked it out forgot about it, unlike the people who checked it out before them who returned it responsibly.
The point about the canibilism scene is really interesting and a strong theory that I haven't heard before. At the same time, all of that could have happened after 2277. Also lucy could have had that memory as an older girl as you mentioned. I expect a flashback to this event will turn up in season 2 and I'm looking forward to it.
Maybe its just lines on a chalkboard. And like everything else in a Vault...its just a misdirect .
Spoilers. Lucy's father is a defector of Enclave or B.O.S
A fall, can mean many things. It doesn't necessarily mean total destruction. It may mean that it was considered a fall, cause Hank took the kids back, and bombed it. Because of the rads& horrid memories the Capital was then moved (maybe they were already in the midst of moving the Capital so Hank would have a harder time finding his kids. Which explains why not everyone from the NCR was at Shady Sands when it was bombed in 77. It would explain why her Mom got to be a ghoul & why others are not, despite obviously being around the NCR for quite some time).
Meaning quite a few ppl were away setting up the new Capital or seat of power, at the local it was in the game.
They deffo locked the vault down to ensure no one knew her Mom and Lucy& her brother escaped.
I think Betty stayed at first behind, while Hank left. To ensure everyone behaved. Maybe once Hank returned, Betty left& set off the events in 77.
I also interpreted Hank having lost the weight was how much his wife weighted. As in he lost her, and became of it became 128 lbs lighter (its difficult to make out if she says he lost 128 lbs or if he was only 128 lbs at the end of the quarantine).
Once 77 happened, the rest is as the game says.
This is how I figured the events happened& in how it all makes sense& still remain Cannon.
Sorry for the spelling mistakes
Also why would Hank take his Kids back to the Vault in 2277 and wait 4 whole Years to Nuke the City when every day waiting would compromise their Vault's and therefore Vault Tecs Plan? His Wife would still be in Shady Sands and she knows that there was some shady stuff going on in the Vault. She would have known that Hank took the Kids and knows where the Vaults are and has a Pipboy to access them. With Todds logic she would have also waited 4 Years not doing anything to get her Kids back and she would have the NCR Military at her disposal. That makes no sense.
they should just separate the timelines of the show and the games
I’m calling it in season 2 The NCR returns more authoritarian and their first cameo is attacking vault 33 (fallout 2 enclave style) as a declaration of war against vault tec also their military is much more advanced and better organized then they were in New Vegas and their new president would have to be someone we know in fnv that is from the ncr faction (personally I would pick Cassandra Moore to be their president)
“ Remember Shady Sands “
When ncr pulled out of shady sands, moldover and her raiders took over. (Moldover is not NCR.)
I would write that Hank leaves the vault often and has relationships with ncr and House. Hank nuked shady sands because moldover and her communist raiders already killed all relations that hank did have their.
We don't know Rose was feral in 2077.
The more you attack the show's mistakes, the more they'll double down if they even see these arguments like these. However, it is a good idea to make sure we are not fooled into thinking the story said something else while it clearly and heavily implies 2277 as an important year for Shady Sands.
I don't think that he is attacking the show's mistakes. There are bound to be inconsistencies in any long-running storyline, but that is just human nature. I think the people working on the show did an amazing job, despite the fact that the fan base over-analyzes everything.
Unfortunately the date in the library book is in no way conclusive proof that Shady Sands was destroyed in 2277, it may be a case that the book was taken home after being checked out in 2276, left at home and forgotten about then found by a sibling of the person that checked it out in 2281, and returned to the school and placed in the locker with the intention of returning it to the library at the first opportunity, personally I do think the 2277 date was chosen because the producers 'forgot' about Fallout New Vegas because it wasn't a Bethesda game.
They shouldn’t have “forgot” about the most popular game in their franchise set in the exact same area of the country
I'm more in line with thinking that 2277's "Fall" has a LOT more to do with Muldaver's quest for Cold Fusion than it does Hank's revenge. Muldaver is clearly in Shady Sands in 2277 but is not any kind of leader there that we understand. However, the survivors in Vault 4 worship her like some kind of prophet or goddess. What the hell was Muldaver actually doing in Shady Sands? What could she possibly have done to draw such a cult like status? What connection did she have already to Rose and / or Vault 33? If, as Oxhorn points out, Rose and Muldaver have a relationship, how the heck did that start when Rose was in Vault 33 for most of her life and Muldaver was in Shady Sands? There is a LOT more to the story of Muldaver than we've been told and based on the terrible things she did in order to get Cold Fusion to work (not even to GET REVENGE ON HANK! She just wanted her lifelong dream to be fulfilled!) leads me to believe she is not a good person by any stretch of the imagination.
Ultimately, the show can get things wrong just like the games. Both Old World Blues and Dead Money say the bombs were dropped at night, when 3,4, and NV said it was in the morning. Ill take Todd's word over a mistake in the show.
i’m withholding judgement until i see proof that it’s not an intentional lie
Your entire fanbase explained the date towards you and your still in Denial is OUTSTANDING
@@SuperCasperman seems to me everyone excluding the most devoted Bethesda apologists see this as a huge lore mistake with severe timeline consequences that was attempted to be covered up by corpo bullshit and aren’t inhaling the Todd Howard copium.
@@Weasel6 nah only ox sees this as an issue still...everyone accepted it happened before/knows how to read a chalkboard
Nice try though
@@SuperCaspermanno the show obviously fucked up and they made a shitty explanation to make it seem like they didn’t fuck up(wasn’t ignoring new Vegas) cause there was backlash
What a crazy story that will be created to explain this away... when they should have just said oops, we will fix it
They named the second Capitol Shady Sands also. Done.
The book what checked out on my birthday, Oct 22 2274
They should have you contract with them to maybe salvage some of the time discrepancies (if that’s even possible) for season 2!!! I mean, movies have script advisors up keep continuity and accuracy throughout the filming of a movie, it only makes sense to do it for a game such as this with multiple iterations and time-dependent facts 🤔
I agree with you. Those scenes were intentional. And intent was to tell a story.
Why they messed up dates.... Someone overlooked??
I really think they are going to explain it later in the show. I hope so
Another huge mistake the show made, was placing Shady Sands within walking distance of Vault 33. If you look at the maps in Fallout 1&2, you can clearly make out the geographical location of Shady Sands. In both games it is somewhere near Sacramento. It would take at least a month to walk from Santa Monica (Vault 33) to Sacramento (Shady Sands) over 400 miles in distance. That mistake is what bugs me most about the TV show. Just shows that the writers don't know their material. Mistakes and all, still a good show 🤩
Unless they're using 'video game logic' where you can walk from Bethesda, Maryland to the Jefferson Monument in less than a day because scaling. That kind of stuff I handwave because you can't do six episodes of people just walking from one location to another. You have to accept some "uneventful time skips' happen when huge distances are involved. Or... JJ Abrams wrote the script.
The part I never understood is why and how those guys dug up the ghoul from a grave. I'm trying to figure out why they chose that scene. It still doesn't make sense to me.
The comments were _absolutely_ made to douse controversy. There's no reason, aside from playing devil's advocate, to infer without producer comment that the destruction of Shady Sands happened at a later date than 2277. And, therefore, no reason to think that the original plan wasn't to completely invalidate New Vegas. However, the production team saw the blowback received for invalidating New Vegas and bullshitted an answer. "We're threading it very closely," he says, only because, post-hoc, it's a tight game of bullshit to play.
The only justifications and attempts at retcons they give for this decision is that "It's possible..." for their time shift to work, but only under the weakest hand-waving to act like there's no reason to be concerned about the fate of New Vegas' story. Ultimately, I really think _that's_ the game they're playing, too. They _specifically_ wanted to take down New Vegas' story and make the players' actions in that game, specifically, invalid. And they did it at the cost of Fallout 1 and 2's stories to some extent, too.
And they did what they wanted to. They _assassinated_ Mr. House's character _and_ showed New Vegas destroyed _and_ act like the Legion never existed. Almost ALL of the players' choices in New Vegas, with the release of this show, were erased and invalidated. House is gone, NCR is decimated, and the Legion is nowhere to be found. This was _nothing_ more than a slap in the face of New Vegas' creators (whether they were compelled to say they accept it later or are just too spineless to call it what it is) and fans.
And it's not like they haven't taken cheap shots at other Fallout games that weren't made by them. When Fallout London was _just about to release,_ Bethesda threw an update out the door that upended London coming out and is a _stain_ on the modding scene of Fallout 4, because so many mods and modders now require a Downgrader to before Bethesda spitefully threw shit at their fans again.
I don't know why they're doing this. I don't know if the Angry Todd meme is real, or if more people in Bethesda than Todd are _furious_ that their projects keep receiving so much criticism and blowback while non-Bethesda Fallout works get so much praise. I wonder if New Vegas was set up to fail with the 18 month deadline and if Bethesda is still pissed that Obsidian turned it into what's considered the best Fallout game.
But this show is too much of Bethesda pissing into the pool to think that they didn't drop their pants on purpose. Shady Sands was Fallout 1 and 2's. It was before Bethesda, it wasn't theirs. So NCR isn't theirs. The Legion isn't theirs. Mr. House was made something greater than what they'd done with him. And, so far as I can tell, all signs point to them vindictively sabotaging those factions and stories _because_ they weren't Bethesda's.
And no-one can act like they wouldn't do something openly spiteful to their fans. Does the Creation Club exist or not? Exactly.
Calling it a "continuity _error"_ assumes this wasn't done entirely purposefully.
@@RockLegend2A
I hate that people are grasping so hard to make it work 😂 like saying "2277 is the beginning of the decline of shady sands" whenever it's pretty obvious what the writers meant.
@@dillonblair6491 And, aside from them just liking the show _that much_ to want to defend Bethesda's (Todd's) decisions, I cannot see why in the hell they'd do that without being paid to. If they're gonna go full white knight for any of Fallout's content, WHY NOT THE BETTER CONTENT? Why not New Vegas? Why simp for the show's comparative schlock?
Yer, the show runners messed up! The only way they can fix this continuity error is in the next season? They might have hank hiding the nuke in 2277 and putting it on a timer to blow up later, giving him time to get away. And after the nuke went off, moldaver knew the who, the why, the when!!! The old they're dead but don't know it. In all probability, they used 2277 date because it's similar to 2077 when the bombs dropped. And overlooked fallout new Vegas games timeline
Was Shady Sands also destroyed in 219x, where it has a 30 year span of being missing? I mean, if that's the only way the book could be checked out overlong, then it must also apply to the first very long span, right?
Bethesda has always hated that New Vegas did so good and has been trying to get rid of it ever since.
So the video game guy and the TV show folks don't follow their own canon? I don't know how you can be suprised....they don't follow their own canon when it gets in the way.
It’s just one little error or so. Why is this such a big deal. Can’t get everything perfect. We are just humans
They stumbled upon tranquility lane and upon entering realized the time line got manipulated prior to escaping tranquility lane
The problem is when showrunners don't know the cannon of a series. Just am hoping season 2 isn't a bad wash like we have seen with Rings of power
Ox they really need to get you on board for the lore at least. The show and fallout 5 I think you’d be an asset. All the best from England.
Ssssshhhhh... it just works!
Why even include any nuclear detonations at all? If they REALLY wanted to add one, why not mention the nuclear destruction of the Long 15, or Dry Wells?
Can we just retcon new vegas into happening a few years earlier? What would be the actual consequence of that? It's not like losing 3 years of "inbetween time" from fallout 2 to new vegas would ruin anything, right? The events still happen as depicted in the game, just change the date counter on everything. The same could be done to the show, but more difficult given the plethora of voice lines.
why not just retcon the chalkboard ?
it doesn’t say it was bombed in 2277 it says indicates the fall from 2277 and points towards an explosion that doesn’t imply that it was bombed in 2277 but after. A fall can happen over a longer period of time which is consistent with the dialogue in New vegas about the NCR struggling. The diagram is also a flow chart with the explosion being at the end of it.
If that were the case we would have heard about Shady Sands and the NCR well on its way to falling apart in 4 years later in New Vegas, not an NCR that is expanding its reach into the Mojave and holding Hoover Dam.
@@Weasel6 We *do* hear about how Shady Sands is falling apart. New Vegas is full of scenes where characters talk about the NCR dying a slow death.
It’s very obvious that the show runners made a continuity error, and Bethesda knowing how much the community loves New Vegas played corpo damage control to save face.
Then it would have dated the explosion. A cultural “fall” is not a definite event you would date.
How exactly did Hank managed to get the kids??
A year is a long time. Maybe you could say it happened later in the year that New Vegas took place? I do think its an error but maybe that's a way to work around it?
maybe they're lying to the vault people of the day of shady Sands destruction
Oxhorn is, of course, 100% right.
The show is great and this is a big mistake.
Both can be true. And are.
Amazon ruins everything it touches.
Exactly this was my main point of criticism about the show and everyone was saying oh there’s just no pleasing some people go watch paint dry or you can’t settle for something new can you like no the games are all about the war this show can’t Make lore mistakes also why is new Vegas suddenly destroyed, which ending is canon, one thing I did forget to mention, is why is the prydwen on this side of the United States that could be in the Minutemen won in Boston or the brotherhood? I’m just very unsure there’s so many questions that I have about the show that I hope we answered in season two
I enjoyed the show much more than I thought I would but I ignore the lore from the show and FO76.
Bethesda retcons repeatedly. It's unfortunately something you have to tolerate if you're going to enjoy their products.
Yeah that was a screw up. Honestly if it was a straight up retcon I would be fine with it, but really it just seems to be a mistake that they are now trying to fix.