So, is a biscuit joiner completely useless?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ส.ค. 2024
- There are much better ways to join boards together. Don't bother with a biscuit joiner.
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#woodworking #joinery #tools
I make 8ft+ tables..
Being a one man operation, I will take what I can get. I love my biscuit joiner, specifically to line up extremely long live edge slabs. It also helps me to keep the wood level, I glue up some pretty gnarly pieces. I think it definitely has it's place in my shop. Everyone has their own opinion, this is true. Any tool that gives woodworkers the confidence to keep alive a slowly dying art, is a necessary tool in my opinion.
well your biscuit joiner probably isn't a complete piece of sh*t...
@@oneoneone7397 without seeing what you mean, it would be hard to answer that question..
I use my router and slot cutter bit and run a continuous slot when laying up table tops...stoping before the ends.
@@oneoneone7397 It's so easy just do it
I use them to eliminate pocket holes in the back of my wood benches...
It's fun to watch the first season of The New Yankee Workshop online. Norm was a very different person, with very different tools and techniques back then...
Steve, you are like a lighthouse of hope and reason in the stormy sea of heavily sponsored and out of touch woodworking TH-camrs!
Ben nice way of saying it !!👍
He still needs our support as he cuts off on sponsored contents
"...lighthouse of hope and reason in the stormy sea..." WOW, that;s what I call an endorsement.
Kind sir, you are the bastion of power and enlightenment in these petulant seas of over-encumbered and ill-mannered picture films of self help videos.
Out of touch woodworking TH-camrs sums it up.
My professor in a cabinet making class was very fond of biscuits and we used them all the time for constructing the cases. The glue up was tricky but they have held up well. They swell inside the slots once wet with wood glue and are very hard to pull apart once swollen even without glue.
Right, and Franz Klauzs did a full video on B joinery. This guy is a hack, at least as far as biscuits are concerned.
I use my porter cable biscuit joiner to build kitchen cabinets using birch or maple plywood. Building a Murphy bed frame with the larger# 20 biscuits. Never had any issues with weak joints, or alignment of plywood connections. There are three different sizes of biscuits. I will continue to build custom cabinets using a biscuit joiner!
Steve, that biscuit jointer was bottom of the barrel stuff when you got it 20-30 years ago! Your biscuits should not have that much play. A biscuit jointer is great for alignment. I use it to attach hardwood edging on countertops, align my face frames to the cases, I even use it to butt join long pieces of crown or baseboard.
This video really needed a bit more research. Lamello invented the biscuit jointer (I think). And they have models that are more expensive than the domino! A proper biscuit jointer is a precision machine. Also, get good biscuits. Biscuits that are too fat or too thin will adversely effect your joints.
I have the original elu and love it.
Especially agreed about joining wood edge to veneered sheet stock that must be flushed off. Using paper shims to offset the edges a trifle, the precision of the originator Lamello machines meant that I could use a single leaf of shim. All other brands have more slop in their plunge, requiring thicker shims for offset, and more wood to carefully shave down flush to the veneer.
Yes, throw that Sears POS away and start over with a modern, decent quality machine. You'll be amazed!
I was wondering about this myself. The videos I've watched using biscuit joints were a lot more snug than what he shows. Biscuits should be about as snug as a dowel across the vertical plane, but have some ability to move laterally. That way you can line up your joint in one direction while knowing it's staying aligned in another. For example, lining up two butcher block countertops in a miter joint to minimize the vertical "bump" between them, before you align them horizontally and "clamp" them with miter bolts and glue. (Still a good idea to clamp something on top to really minimize movement during glue, where possible.) It also provides some extra horizontal strength so if a kid climbs on top of them, they don't risk splitting at the glue joint from the uneven pressure.
(Granted in the above example, the countertops should make as much contact with the counters below and be shimmed as necessary. But wood loves to move over time, and butcher block countertops should be installed with that in mind.)
Anyways, I think the real tip here is to get a better tool. Even HF has more precise tools than what he's using.
I used my porter cable plate joiner for may years on cabinet face frames, door frames and a few other projects but very seldom on gluing up table tops of solid wood. Pocket hole joinery is something I did spend money on as it is faster, easier, and very strong, and one can either make or purchase plugs to cover the pocket screw holes. I haven't used my plate joiner in almost 3 years, it is now a dust collector.
your right, mine has be stored away for years , making face frames pocket holes are the way to go and plenty strong enough
Using biscuit joints with pocket holes can be amazingly fast and strong. Biscuits are amazing for alignment with good strength and when used with pocket holes they can be very strong.
I haven't seen any play in my biscuit slots. In fact, after applying glue, I tap them in with a mallet.
Exactly
I wonder if that's a cheap biscuit joiner or maybe the wrong blade
when I use a biscuit joiner usually I have to take a rubber mallet and beat the two pieces together
Because the biscuits slot is tight
ya same. normally im using a mallet to get the biscuit in. I definatly makes the joint stronger, idk how much stronger but it makes me feel better
DR Dan I think you nailed that one-yep humidity
@@garychambers5930 yup, looks like a cheap biscuit joiner,
@DR Dan, I don't pound, I tap. They fit just snug before gluing. I can push them in and pull them out, but they are narrow and tapping lets me increment them into position easier than simply pushing.
I use both the biscuit joiner and the domino machine at work, and I don't know if ur machine are of any quality or if u have the right sized biscuits cuz I don't get any play at all so it's excellent for levelling a joint.
But it's no fun tho!
Agree, biscuit should have a tight fit with the groove to work.
2:22 The fit here is terrible
Ya, the play in his biscuit joiner is horrible. My biscuits are way tighter.
That's what I was about to say
I usually have to get my rubber mallet out and beat the two pieces together when they are biscuit jointed
Ya, his biscuit jointer is as old as I am.
Mine is crazy tight. Just used it last night to glue up some shelves with my son. Super easy.
@@LowAss720 if mine was that bad I would fix it or get rid of it
That is really bad
Wow. I'm amazed at how much play you have in your slots. I've been using my biscuit joiner for all of my table tops, and i've never seen anything like that. I have the opposite problem - sometimes the biscuit is too tight, and hard to center in the slot - at which point it actually prevents the boards from coming together. However, once i discovered that, i just check the fit before assembly and throw out the ones that are too tight (only 1 in 20 or so are too tight). I acknowledge that cauls are probably still a better choice, but my biscuit joiner is still very effective.
I started using a biscuit joiner in 1986 working at a cabinet shop in Wayne NJ called the Woodworker. We used the Biscuit joiner on almost every project and to this day I still use one almost every week. I don't think you need a ton of expensive tools to make a beautiful piece of furniture but I do think a biscuit joiner is a good tool to have in the shop.... Unless you can afford a Festool Domino : ).
I just got one this year. It is crazy helpful.
I have long considered a biscuit joiner, i appreciate you taking the time to put together this video. I'm pretty sure your reasoning and arguments have talked me out of wasting money on this tool. Many thanks!
I tried those bisquits one time and got splinters in my mouth and gravy don't help with the taste.
I can believe that gravy doesn't help with the taste, but you'd be pretty hard-pressed (so to speak) to get splinters from a biscuit.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣. 🤪
Yeah I've found you need A LOT of tea to wash down these biscuits.
They're better with ketchup..
Ahh, but have you tried them with hot sauce?
Mine looks good on my tool wall and I only have to dust it once a year.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I bought a biscuit joiner at an auction a few years ago for about $30. It came with a whole bunch of biscuits, too. I build picture frames from live edge boards, which, when mitered, don't always clamp up nicely. The biscuit joiner really does help them get lined up and hold the ends together well, as the faces are not always the same width. The end product looks pretty good, as they frame my own landscape photos. I have also used them to line up edges for table tops, and that was helpful as well. $30 was about the right price, too. Beyond that and I would probably not own one.
Thanks for explaining this, the guy who taught me woodworking taught me to use biscuits, but as I learned more I started to question why we use them.
Your explanation really helps me understand the history and reasons. Thank you
Biscuits are easy and fast to align. You could make anything with them.
One of those rare cases where I will have to disagree with you. I have a biscuit joiner and have found it has saved me a lot of time and headache and has paid for itself. It does depend on the type of woodworker you are for sure though. I don't like to use hardware in my projects. Only wood joints. So when I want to do a panel glue up, I use biscuits for alignment and properly aligned wood + glue for strength. I don't even add glue in my biscuit slots anymore as I have found 0 benefit from doing that, only spending more money on glue. Getting the right combination of blade and biscuit is ideal though. The example you showed has a lot of play. When I use the ones I have, there is never play like that. I sometimes have to even use some light tapping to get the biscuits in the slots. So they really make sure that boards are straight, saving me hours of sanding and planing. Using cauls means more clamps as well. We all know that you would almost sell your soul to have just 1 more clamp during a glue up, so I like to make sure my clamps are used solely for putting boards together instead of keeping them flat.
I agree there is some advantage rather than plain glue, but i use dowels, and they are much cheaper, plenty of different jigs (imcluding your own) works with a drill, and over all: it really gives strength as well.
@@dekurvajo dowels are definitely great and I use them a bunch, but for me, biscuits are the quickest way which makes it the cheapest way when considering time = money when doing commission work.
@@modestmaking5314 Agree,,, I once had to make 80 wooden boxes for a client, Took me some hours to make jigs for alignment, made the 1280 biscuits, and assembled it all within a week (clamps and space was the limiting factor).
PS my Lamello is in same price range as the Domino and well worth the investment when you know how to use it and for what projects.
ModestMaking I have a Dewalt jointer. Unfortunately I cannot rely on the allignment. The biscuits are Tight, but the slots always vary in position. Any tips?
@@MaxMakerChannel I also have the Dewalt one and I use Porter Cable biscuits. I got my joiner used and after some minor tweaking, it's perfectly straight and spot on now. There is a great video from Gosforth Handyman that you should watch. It goes over how to calibrate your joiner.
"This video has been deemed inappropriate by the Association of Biscuit Joining"
lol. As Chairman of the ABJ I am offended by this video.
Approved by DTJNC (Dovetail Joinery Ninjas Community)
I own a biscuit joiner that i used a LOT in the first weekend and i don’t really know if i feel offended or not 😄
@@deepsgnips lol. I have one but have only unboxed it. sigh.......
Phil Parrish the bright side being: “unboxing is always a pleasure”
Whew! I came close to buying one for a decade. I'm glad i never did. Thank you!
Steve bought his biscuit joiner in the late 90's and it is rather crappy model by the looks of it. With a better made tool you can dial in the depth and width of cut to fit biscuits so well that they barely need glue. His take on the biscuit joint makes all kinds of good points but still does not do it justice.
I can't tell you how badly I wanted a Lamello biscuit jointer, just like David Marks. I now just go with edge-edge or dowels, and I still am astronomically out of David Marks' league.
@@dclaghorn2 dude, just buy one. They are cheap
I use my biscuit joiner all the time. I make heavy big log fireplace mantels, massive life edge tables, of huge heavy bords, with literally two rows of 30 biscuits across. Slide them together, work fast for the glue, tap the boards with a wooden hammer, then clamp them tight shut. My tables have nothing else but wood, biscuits, and glue, and will last generations. Absolutely nothing useless about a biscuit joiner, my friend.
Norm Abram doesn't change router bits, he changes routers.
Yes he does
He has a few
Id love to have his tool setup
Makes sense if you regularly use the same bits and depths. Bit of a pita to constantly be changing bits and adjusting the guides.
Yep, that's me.. 7 routers and hardly ever change bits LOL
Without a doubt if I used dovetails regularly, I would keep one set and never use it for anything else. They are a PITA to get set properly.
I used one of those dowel jigs quite a bit to repair joints in old windows that had been poorly built and needed strengthening. I drilled from the outside of the stile into the rail. They worked very well for the casement windows I repaired. In this application a dowel was probably superior to a domino. On biscuits and Norm: I seem to recall that he had abandoned them before the end of his show.
Speaking of dowels, I just made a small couch tray and tried a trick I saw somewhere online with great success. I used #8 screws in pre-drilled holes during the glue-up, and then after the glue was dry I went back and pulled the screws, drilled out the holes to 5/16ths, and glued/hammered in hardwood dowel from the big box store. Worked really well! I'm definitely going to use it again in cases where I don't mind having the dowels visible (I generally like seeing them, since the endgrain finishes up darker than the facegrain).
Good stuff, Steve. That's funny--I remember Norm using his biscuit joiner for every panel he glued together. And then when I started woodworking in my tiny apartment around 1990 or so I paid attention to Roy Underhill, and he taught us to just plane the edges smooth and glue them up, maybe with a little rubbing together of the parts, so that's what I did. No biscuits required. God bless Norm--he's an inspiration.
This is a very good video, a video for mortals. That's the reason I love so much your channel, you teach us that woodworking is not for men with very big workshops and sophisticated machines. I hate woodworking videos where they show super expensive machines that I can never buy.
I've been using 3 different joiners for the past 20 years. I've never had slots as sloppy as what you show. I've had to drive ,my biscuits in with a mallet.
You do have to tap em in when you are in Louisiana or some other swamp ass location.
Humidity makes them swell up.
I'm in a fairly dry province in Canada and I too have to tap them in and sometimes pull them out with pliers (when doing a dry fit)
I bet he is buying generic or cheap biscuits. Biscuits do come in different sizes also. I have had sloppy fitting biscuits so I returned them for name brand. Since that time I have the size of my cutter(thickness) written on a tag on both inside and outside of case. There definitely is a use for them. I didn't buy mine because of Norm even though I knew him personally at the time. I bought it because it's handy for making tables, cabinets and joining tasks. I actually have 2 of them a Dewalt and a Mikita both of which are built way better than that POS he has.
Everyone has an opinion and you know what they are like. Well this dude's stinks. Look on utube and there are vids saying how they are a must have tool. I don't a vid to tell me that though
This saved me from getting one. I really do need to get over my hesitation and make my first tabletop glued and clamped together.
Try using one for cutting cam lock strike slots when installing locks on doors and in drawers, nothing can surpass its superiority for this task. I've used my Dewalt to scab on and widen doors, replace rotted jamb sections and enhance many assemblies. It's not the only way, but mine paid itself off and is here to stay.
I've never seen, let alone use, any biscuit with that amount of clearance. I usually use Freud, and they often have to be tapped into the slot, especially if you take more than half a minute after applying the glue to fit them into the slot.
For making edge joints, I glue the whole joint instead of relying only the biscuits, but they sure help in aligning. I don't use cauls, unless I'm using a number of boards, and that's more for keeping the whole thing flat while the glue is setting rather than for alignment.
I recently made all new doors for the kitchen cabinets in our house, and biscuits are hard to beat for making the frames when it comes to speed and ease of assembly. Sure beat using dowels, like I did for doing the same thing a number of years ago in another house, before I had a biscuit joiner.
I've never seen a "one size fits all" kind of tool. They all have their uses as well as their limitations, but I've found a biscuit joiner to be a very useful tool when used for it's intended purpose.
Still use and love my biscuit joiner, a lot cheaper than the alternative, I use it for just about most projects
Yea I use mine on most of my table tops. Never have had any issues for 6 years now. Think I'll just keep using it. If I had a cool g siting around I'd get a domino tool. But that's a lot of money for a hand held tool. I get why someone wouldn't use them but there is nothing wrong with using as biscuit either.
I just used mine last week.
Have you used the kreg pocket screw system?
A few years ago my boss called and asked me if we needed the kreg pocket screw system
I told him HELL YES !
He asked are you sure
Definitely
When he got back to the shop I showed him how the system works and he was very impressed even though it's kind of expensive for what you get
I love it works great but I will keep the biscuit joiner
It works great as well
Each tool has its purpose
Same here, and if you have that much "play" @2.22, then the quality of your tool is somewhat "suspect" shall we say? Although I would admit that the Dewalt that I've owned for some twenty years now isn't by any means "top of the line", I do used if fairly regularly, and I can barely get the biscuits out of their slots again after a dry fit.
Congratulations on wasting your time lol
You may have saved me a few dollars here. Thanks. I am starting a couple of shelf, bookcase, storage type projects. Biscuit joinery was what I learned in the ‘90’s, so I went shopping. Couldn’t find a biscuit slot cutter in any of the big box stores, or Lee Valley, or the second hand stores. So I checked on TH-cam, and heard what you say.
I have a Ryobi biscuit jointer and used it successfully to build kitchen cabinets. I used it for reinforcing butt joints on three-quarter inch thick plywood,.It also helped with the alignment at the end of the cabinets.
Just made 9 tables for a restaurant using a biscuit jointer. They are some of the flattest tables I ever made. Usually have to glue up two half to run through the planner but I was able to glue all the boards together seamlessly. Biscuit jointers are very helpful when making tables.
I’ve been a professional woodworker for 25 years and there is nothing more useful than a biscuit jointer, the domino is a waste of money you’re better off with a slot Mortiser which costs less and is far more useful for putting together furniture
Kozel same here I mostly do frameless and it’s the fastest way to put cases together other than investing in a boring machine, which I don’t see the need for, I have a slot mortiser for doing loose tenons and it’s far more versatile and I can cut better mortises with it than I ever could with a domino. I don’t get why anyone would spend $1500 for that thing but they all do
I have a biscuit jointer and a domino. I’m intrigued by this slot mortiser though. Can you tell me more about it?
William Butler it’s a stationary machine the tables move and the head goes in and out you can adjust it to make longer mortises make them thicker whatever you want, cut angled joints all sorts of things If you know how to use it. You can also get a multi router it does the same thing and it can cut other joints as well such as dovetails and box joints, it’s pricier but it works as well
@@adamchesis7443
For the speed......for the love of God man, the speed and accuracy you can make an extremely strong, consistent joint with a Domino tool is unparalleled. If you're a fine woodworker and you enjoy taking 2 hours to set up and make 8 perfect mortises with a router or slot mortiser then that's fine. But a Domino gets it done in about 2 minutes.
Big Mike is talking if I need to do something fast I have a lamello, If it’s taking you 2 hours to cut 8 mortises on a slot Mortiser I don’t know what you’re doing wrong it would take me about 15 minutes, can you make a 1/2 x 3” mortise with a domino? Nope. People are convinced that the domino is the greatest and if it works for them that’s fine I’ve been doing this for a long time and I don’t see any use for it
I've read about half of the comments but haven't seen any mentions of it, but if you really want to use biscuits you can buy a router bit that will do the job for a lot less money than the dedicated tool. Thanks for the video. Good information as always, and a thumbs up to crush a troll.
You guys should try the original biscuit joiner invented by the swiss company lamello in 1968. Should give you less headaches than those cheap knockoffs. By the way: the bisquit joints were originally invented to join the first chipboards which were so weak that a dowel wouldn't get enough hold. A biscuit joint has more glue surface but is thinner than a dowel so it doesn't weaken the structure of the chipboard much.
I'm lucky, my neighbor must have watched Norm back in the day and he went out and bought one. Now when I have a project that needs it, I just borrow his.
Here in Europe we use plywood biscuits which are strong !! Also a quality joiner like the Lamello top 10 lets you micro adjust the joint.- great for joining melamine panels etc,
About 25 years ago I bought a Harbor Fright biscuit joiner because I had a (preinstalled) windowsill that needed an extension and I couldn't come up with any other possible way to align the two together. I used it to install about eight biscuits along that joint... and put the joiner away. I've never since come up with any other application that called for that tool.
In Kentucky summer humidity, my first and second biscuit joiners were fantastic at keeping materials leveled and I never had one of these joints fail... BUT I never used a biscuit joiner for face frames or door frame joints. I bought a mortising machine and built a tenoning jig for the table saw. As a life-long contractor in my area there are a LOT of Built-in book cases and cabinetry around here with my biscuit joints. I guess everyone has their own way of doing things though.
You're using the wrong biscuits if they have that much play...or any play at all for that matter. Mine sometimes have to be hammered in.
I gotta say, even my nasty cheap joiner and biscuits fitted snuggly... out of alignment, but snug!
Yeah I usually have to get a rubber mallet and beat the pieces together before clamping them
Always keep the biscuits in a dry place and bag or box sealed as they sell up alot.
Youll be fuckin hammered if you keep carrying on about biscuit joiners.
Biscuit joints are a step above butt joints. No, they don't add strength. But they are great for aligning! I don't have wall full of clamps. And I don't need them when I'm using biscuits.
*also it definitely looks like you picked up the wrong size biscuit. Try a size up.
That camp crystal lake sign was messing with my OCD
Steve, i work for an Australian equivalent of Home Depot. I don't think I'm supposed to name my company but it's probably obvious . I work in the tool shop there selling power tools and hand tools. When people ask me for help, i offer advice and then tell them to come to your channel for great content and education. I get a lot of positive feedback from customers i send to WWFMM. You rock!
I love my Porter Cable 557 and I actually use it.
My favorite use is to keep pieces from slipping and moving during glue up. It isn't necessary for panels but I've used it on odd angled pieces and even to attach face frames to carcasses.
The biscuits are not strong enough to be a tenon but they are a good substitute for long tongue and grooves or T&G chest builds.
I'd buy it again.
Weekend Woodworker? Oh. I thought you said "Wicked Woodworker" so of course I clicked right in. Been watching ever since. Wicked or not, Steve is one of the best on TH-cam. Every sawdust maker owes it to himself and his progeny to fall into this here rabbit hole.
I liked Norm because he was a real woodworker, he had a radial arm saw.
Yeah you don't see this much anymore
Beats the snot out of a table saw in small spaces. Also makes a great disc grinder, and a somewhat adequate overarm router or even drill press.
I love my RAS, especially for dado work. It’s nice to be able to see what you’re dadoing.
I also prefer using the RAS over a miter saw when I don’t need the portability.
Soooooo does this mean I'm a real woodworker? I just picked up a 1958 Dewalt GWI radial arm saw.
@@JetSkiBuyFixPlaySellChannel That is a nice RAS, My Dewalt is not quite that vintage, but I use quite often and a heck of lot more then biscuit jointer...
Very timely Steve. I was just thinking about buying a biscuit joiner to align some boards for a glue up. Your video makes it clear that biscuits really aren't that accurate to align things. Thank you.
Dave, buy that biscuit joiner, but stay away from the low end stuff that was unfortunately used in the video. DeWalt and Makita make wonderful joiners for $170-180 that won't let you down.
Came to the same conclusion many years ago, used it a few times and decided it was useless.
You probably have not designed furniture with it in mind. You can make anything from cabinets, tables, chairs or anything else with biscuit joints and when combined with screws it produces really strong joints with perfect alingment.
I use my biscuit joiner more frequently to cut slots in table rails than I use it as a joinery tool
I was going to add something similar. I've just replaced an ugly, glass shelf in the bathroom with a floating wood shelf. Since the attaching pieces (I don't know how to explain this more clearly) were already in the wall and I didn't want to damage the wall tiles, I had to cut slots into the wood and it was quite a challenge for me. The result was looking awful, but since it's against the wall, it's acceptable. Still I thought about them immediately when I saw this video about the biscuit joiner. It's not that I'm gonna buy one but if I already had one, I would have used it for that shelf.
Exactly! I was about to sell mine, but I can attest that it's the best tool to cut slots for tabletop fasteners
Why?
@@killingoldgrowthsince because it's safer and a quick way to cut those slots.
@@Ham68229 for what reason though ?
*sells off Pillsbury stock before this gets out*
Jeez... just noticed I haven't seen a Pillsbury ad in FOREVER
I’ve had one for 25 years, think I used it twice! Agree 100 percent with you on this one!!
Hi Steve. Here in Brazil there was not much demand for biscuit joiner. Only stores in major cities, such as São Paulo, could import it. The most common here are mortise and tenon joints, as well as dowels. Thanks for the precious tips in this video.
IM 99% sure, I cant find mine, thats how often I use it. I know there is a yellow plastic container, (used to be clear) full of biscuits. I like many bought into the concept, and i purchased one, used it on a few projects and contrary to the belief, I couldn't keep my boards lined up after running a biscuit joint, in fact it was worse than I could do on my own. so it created more work in the long run.
Every once in a while, I think to myself, I wonder where my biscuit joiner is, and I will think, yeah, your not doing anything go see if you can find it. Then I realize, well, Im not going to use it anyway so where ever it is, its not going to be in my way, so lets sit back down and watch another wood working video. hehehe.
Thanks for sharing, love the creativity you have come up with on finishing up with your left over biscuits as well. Keep up the fun videos and have a blessed week.
Dale
Thank you. I love being part of the wwmm community. Happy Christmas
I am a home builder and in the field we use biscuit joiners for window and door casings and they are pretty helpful. But that is about all we use them for, and it falls in line with what you said about miter joints.
I have to disagree on one point. It Does help bring boards together in line. My biscuits have 0 play. I have to hammer them in and then use the clamps to close the seam. Now I will say the original blade that came with it created some play but buying a nicer blade eliminated the play (it's pretty cheap too). I had to put a 4' x 8' table together and the biscuits helped get everything in line. Everything else you said...on point. It doesn't get much use as I just don't need it unless it's for large panel glue ups.
I certainly swear by my dowel jig. Everything lines up and is relatively strong. Wish I could afford a festool domino machine. One day I’ll try and mortise and tenon joint though.
O . G . B Woodwork Now I wish I had a dowel jig. I’ve apparently been wasting my time with my biscuit joiner.
Jake Skywalker if it works, it works. I guess there’s no harm in getting a dowel jig and trying it out though. They are only between £6 -£20
I only use my biscuit joiner and doweling jig for alignment purposes only anymore. I prefer my dowels over the biscuits anymore. Easier and quicker to setup vs the biscuit. In all honesty, the biscuit doesn't add any strength, dowels add some but, not much. Glue is actually stronger than the wood anyway, provided you have ample glue for the joint. Cheers :)
Ham68 thanks mate. Do you have any other methods you use?
I use a Wolfcraft dowelmaster, works like a charm.
Give me some tips! Mine has been nothing short of awful (probably me more than the tool but hey)
When I started my woodworking career back in the eighty's I used all kinds of joinery. One shop had a real Lamello machine and I used it for everything I could. I made jigs to use in making European style cabinets with built in light valances. Shelves could be mounted permanently in the middle of the cabinet. And I made my own kitchen cabinets using this system along with drywall screws. If you are in a small shop making dados and rabbets tie up a table saw, so a Lamello is a valuable tool for making quick joinery. I've never seen a Lamello joint failure, but I have seen pocket screws fail. I still have a Freud Lamellow machine. It's a valuable machine to have in any wood shop. You just need to learn to use it properly.
"Back in the before times", in the dark ages before the internet and TH-cam. I LOVE this channel. I never watched New Yankee Workshop much, I was too young to appreciate. But as I ventured into woodworking and being creative, I "knew" I needed a biscuit jointer for some strange reason; so I bought a Ryobi. I made a practice glue up with it and not used it since.
My father passed on a couple of years ago and I've since inherited all of his woodworking tools (almost enough to sign up for your class!). And in those tools was the very same Craftsman Biscuit Joiner. When my father was alive I remember him using this all of 3 times. And I honestly think I heard him curse Norm Arahm once when I was visiting and he was actually using this. All that to say, it collects dust in my gar...I mean shop. It will probably be the first of his tools that I part with.
I inherited my dads Makita handheld power planer, I love it. Other stuff too, but when I use his tools, we are working in the workshop together again. Be cautious with what you part with.
@@briannewton3535 my old man was a Mac Tools distributor for over 30 years. I have more than enough tools to part with lol. I can work on some wood and work on my truck all with stuff that he had.
I've always used a 5/32" slot cutter in my router.
Way back I got a DVR and a garage and re-started watching New Yankee Workshop. My first sighting of a biscuit joiner had me pause, backup, rewatch several times, and say out loud "What Is That?!?"
I have a higher opinion of them than Steve does, but I agree that they are not at all essential. As a cheap person, I will note that biscuits are cheaper than screws. But good screws are certainly stronger.
I love your ''Good enough is good enough'' attitude. As a dutchman that really resonates. This is not to say perfection has no place in passion or arts. But sometimes good enough really is good enough. especially for most people.
That's is the cheapest looking biscuit joiner I have ever seen, and I think you missed the point, the biscuits are not there for strength but for alignment during glue up. Lamelo even makes biscuits for knock down furniture, try that with a tenon, dowel or domino. And biscuit joinery is not as fussy as dowels.
Mike King well said mate!
just put a through drawbore in the tenons, or use a wedged tenon if you need a knockdown setup. You can usually drive out the pins if they aren't glued in. Baring that you could go for something like a bed bolt + tenon as well. of course for light duty things (picture frames) a spline might be the best bet. Ohh you could be really fancy with a sliding dovetail, though i'm not so sure about that for something like a table or bed leg.
Mike, I think you missed the point by skipping the video which you are commenting on. Steve talked about alignment.
@@HydraSR I jumped through it rather than watch it end to end (too painful), a lot of waving around of the joiner, etc.
@@HydraSR I'm back to this video, TH-cam erased my cookie. My biscuit joiners (I own two and just bought a third) all cut much tighter slots that that thing Steve is swinging around, in hardwood I often have to tap my biscuits in with a mallet.
Norm Convinced me having one was indispensable. I haven't used it in 25 years.
On the plus side, it's 25 yrs old and still capable of working as well as the day you got it!
Watched Norm back in the day. Never bought a biscuit joiner but did buy a jig for my router that did the same thing. Haven't used that jig in years.
I am doing Lamello joints ice decades now.
Great, results, joy to use, fast working!
The joints here in Europe are strong and they have a nice fit.
They are doing all of the adjustment in one direction.
The freedom in the length direction you can use for fast working.
Steve, have you seen or used the beadlock system? It's a floating tenon system. It's not as expensive as a domino, it's as finicky as a dowel, but much stronger and easier to setup/use.
Also, I also bought a DeWalt biscuit jointer because of Norm. It was $200 at the time. OUCH!
I bought the Beadlock system a while ago when I jacked up my cuts and didn't have enough material left for tenons. It was a bitch to learn but quite useful and only like $180.
I lost almost all of my woodworking tolls in Hurricane Harvey. My joiner survived. Lucky me!
Well at least you can make...
I mean you could build...
Hmm...
Sorry about the hurricane.
I have one and have not used it in years. I discovered floating tenons years ago and have used them in several difficult projects with great success. I use end mills in my router and make the floaters out of stock I have on hand. Good article. Craigslist here I come.
Many folks malign the biscuit joiner, I'm not one of them. I have used the biscuit joiner for over 20 years and this tool has allowed me to move quickly and make strong cabinets ad frames and make money. If your biscuit is as sloppy in the joint as Steve's is you need to understand that you can hydrate your biscuits to have a tighter fit. You may also not have your joiner tuned properly... Not strong? Right. Take two 12" long by 2 1/2" wide pieces of pine and glue up a right angle joint. Try to break it, invite others in your shop to try. My test piece was never damaged. The biscuit joiner is one of the most effective ways to move quickly and build well in your shop if you know what you're doing...
Norm Abram is the patron of woodwork.نورم ابرام נורם אבראם
This is the way.
*shrug*, I use mine often, I don't have that kind of play at all.
Agree. I have no play either. Use mine plenty of times.
Guys, it's obvious he's fcking hack job.
I think that guys joiner is the problem. Lol.
Steve, I'm a city slicker from Hollywood California, but I dig your channel to the max! Learned a lot with your fascinating posts! Thank you!
Thanks for keeping the shop modest despite all your TH-cam fame.
It’s cozy to visit unlike some of the others you made a small but very funny jab at. 😂👍🏽
Some people say the same things about pocket screws as biscuit joints
I dont think anyone thinks pocket screws are as weak as biscuits. Yes people do say pockets are not nearly as good as mortise and tenon because they arnt. They are objectively better and stronger than any biscuit though.
@@GifCoDigital And far less expensive.
I love my pocket screw system
I also love my biscuit joining system
Each has are pros and cons
Each has its purpose
@@garychambers5930 there both great for people who don't know joinery, for those who do there garbage...
I saw a piece of wood split out after a friend drove the screw into the pocket hole, and from that moment on pocket screw joinery was dead to me.
I had to laugh because I was also one drawn into buying a biscuit jointer by Norm. LOL
Do it, its a good tool
AS YOU RIGHTLY SHOULD HAVE BEEN. NORM IS ALL SEEING AND ALL BEING.
@@Snaffer01 I use it but have you ever tested the strength of a biscuit? LOL
@@MrSTOUT73 neither has he. He talks about how it doesn't add strength but he doesn't prove it. And he uses the wrong size biscuits which are too loose.
I use metal table top fasteners (the little zig zag ones that screw to the bottom of the table and slide into a slot in the table skirt to allow movement). This is pretty much the only use I have for my biscuit joiner. I leave the biscuit joiner set up for this task and it makes cutting those slots SUPER easy and quick. That being said, if I didn't already have a biscuit joiner, I wouldn't run out and buy one for this application.
Hardwood flooring - after trimming T&G ends and trying to keep them aligned worked amazingly well for me. Had occasion years later to have remove a section and I took the opportunity to cut through a crass section: I was impresses at how well the glue swelled the biscuit and how much contact there was.
I didn't even know my father had one till i asked ( it gets use about no times a year )
I prefer my biscuits with gravy.
Is that an American thing? What kind of biscuits? In the UK we like Yorkshire puddings with gravy 😊
@@briannewton3535 American biscuits refer to a specific type of biscuit that are similar to scones.
I'm imagining the wooden ones slathered in chicken flavored wood glue... 😕
@@briannewton3535 I like that way more than black pudding... 😉 👍
@@yaim0310 Ahh. In the uk we have a dish called Beef Cobbler which is essentially a beef stew with a type of cheese scone topping finished in the oven. Dang it, now I'm feeling hungry...
Great Video! I have to admit that Norm almost convinced me that I needed a buscuit joiner but ai resisted. I leaned to make mortise and tenon joints when I was around 8 years old (1957) By the time The New Yankee Workshop hit PBS my chiselling skills were really well honed. In the early 1970's I learned about Japanese joinery and using those wonderfully engineered ergonomic precision woodworking tools. I do use precision routers but mostly my shop is serenely quiet.
I don’t use mine often, have in the past used them, believe it it not, to attach rails to legs. On small tables or stools, it seems to have worked okay. I think two facts are sometimes overlooked in these discussions are: 1. The stability of a build doesn’t usually depend on a single joint, but all the joints working together, and 2. biscuits vary in dimensions and construction: single ply isn’t as strong as multi-ply, they vary in thickness, and they vary in the amount of swell when wet with glue. Measure, test and choose the biscuit that works best with your slot. That said, for a strong joint, I prefer dowels, M&T, or pocket screws.
Did the biscuits change over the years? The ones I test had to be hit in with a mallet
never speak ill of norm abram. and THESE safety glasses
Thanks Steve. Convinced me to not buy a joiner, and thinking about what you’re saying … not even going to use dowelling. Edge to edge gluing for the gate project. 👍
I think those Powertools are very usefull. As an German Woodworker in my opinion are poket holes useless. We dont use them. We mostly use Dovels or a biscuit joiner to build furniture . So i found the very usefull and you ca get one for 50Bucks.
Greetings from Germany and have a wonderfull christmas time 🎁🎂🎄
I’ve never had anywhere near that degree of “slop” in a biscuit joint. I think perhaps one of your components is metric and the other is English.
The English part being accurate, and the metric requiring attention.
In England we use metric. It is actually against the law for old imperial, what you call English, measurements to be used in retail. So we can’t buy things measured in inches. This has been the case for many, many years now.
@@ianc1097 Against the law? I call bullshit
@@nathanbell8356 it is against the law!
@@nivid01 Can I see some proof? A link perhaps?
I would argue that the biscuit does reinforce the joint by breaking the line of weakness the same way a butt strap would. Also a decent biscuit joiner with the correct size biscuits have no slop at all when aligning parts. Large sheet material and even solid timber also benefit from the added torsional support under load.
It doesnt add strength to anything other than Butt Joints... there are literally hundreds of comparison videos around... some more scientific than others... simply the glue bond isnt superseded by the strength of the biscuit joint so its ineffective... I do disagree with the video for gluing up boards... it takes away all the work in aligning them.
@@spunkmeyer43 You'd literally only use a a biscuit on a butt joint. That's its intended use.
@@tjsabino1991 of course it's not... they are also often used aligning boards... and the strength it gives to a butt joint is barely stronger than the glue and still pointless..
@@spunkmeyer43 We'll have to agree to disagree there. While alignment is definitely part of their use, a biscuit bridges a joint in the same way a butt strap would. It lowers the chance of shearing at or around the joint when torsional forces are applied. I've seen these failures happen many times with many people in our workshops.
My father bought and used a biscuit joiner, I found that the biscuits didn't swell like they claimed, I even soaked one in water overnight, the glue will just set way before the biscuit swells if ever. I like dowels, to me they are as strong as those German ones if you make them deep enough, the shop where I did my apprenticeship had a horizontal borer. Also dovetail rebates or dados for wide boards or just a simple groove cut on the table saw with a loose tongue made from plywood
I used biscuits to make a wall mounted shelf out of melamine faced chipboard. Doing so means there was no visible fixings. Dowels could have been used, but my experience with those is they are very difficult to align exactly.
Careful, you're treading on holy ground.
YES HE IS.
I'm with you Roderick. Very sacred ground. Kreg tools are plastic. One of my least favorite substances on earth.
Wow! I literally was just thinking about getting one lol thank you!
A close call, you may have regretted it. My cheapo biscuit joiner was a whole millimetre out of alignment (yes I am in Europe, UK) along the length of the biscuit, with no option for adjustment. Branded ones do have adjustment on the base plate.
@Pat C Even if branded, they have limited use, and from the practical reviews of using biscuits on glued MDF and pine joints, it makes no difference at all to the strength of the joint. So I stand by a close call :o)
@Pat C As I mentioned, limited use, unless of course they build tables and panel doors, then a biscuit joiner would be super useful.
@Pat C I have the Domino XL DF 700 machine, so have the best of all worlds. A flexible machine that is super easy to use, and it does great joints.
@@briannewton3535 thank you I was thinking of buying a $60 one then I read reviews then I considered the Porter-Cable or even a DeWalt but then I saw Steve's video so yeah I think I'm going to skip on it
Thanks. Your pragmatic advice regarding expense & costs are always appreciated.
I don't remember the episode, but towards the end of Norm's series he did state that he generally no longer used biscuits for table tops as he had seen problems with depressions appearing at the sites of the biscuits, after a number of years.
His producer got a number of his pieces and the New Yankee Workshop, the building, was on his producer's property. Thus Norm could check up on how some of his pieces aged.
This also calls to mind something that I learned from Paul Sellers that I have not seen mentioned elsewhere. When gluing up something like a tabletop he has on occasion remarked, and demonstrated, that after about a minute when the glue has just started to seize up a bit you can then align the boards with hammer taps and they will stay aligned. They won't if you do the tapping too early and if too late then of course you can't realign the boards. So you can start tapping pretty much right away and do over, say, 10 seconds later, if it springs back--- until it stays.
There goes my Biscuit Joiner Stock.
The tool that Norm used all the time was his nail gun.
He was obsessed with his brad nailer...lol
Furniture carpenter here. We use our lamello every day in the shop on lots of projects. We work with 90% chipboard though
Hey Steve! I love your videos and find them very useful. I've been woodworking for only about two years now and have very limited space, time and money. I love how you provide tips that are inexpensive and practical. Thank you!