Thanks for the video. I agree with the principle of what you're trying to say. A PA amp is designed to be as neutral as it can be, but there will always be some coloring of the sound that it produces.
All big gigs use the guitar amp or head through a mixer via direct box and a de-loader (if the amp is tube) It makes sense to biuld the tone having in mind this.
Most guitarists don't do "big gigs", most electric guitarists that do need to go through the PA don't use DI boxes but opt for mics. DI sounds awful with electric guitar. On small gigs most just run their amp without running through a PA. This setup will not be for everyone and it will sound different to a tube amp to some extent but it will be extremely durable and reliable. When it comes to guitar amps and effects I really like to break tradition. As they say "tradition is the enemy of change".
Guitar Amps are often mic'd and run through a PA on large stage performances. No one does it the other way around, pushing the mixer output through a guitar setup. Thanks for posting. I've been searching for speaker frequency response and it's effects.
Very Very great info and video I for one really appreciate new ways to have easy guitar rigs, computer system rigs or PA speaker based systems I think this is a natural progression for the future of amplifiers
I once tried running my Pignose as a preamp into a Bogen 20 watt PA power amp then into my stereo speakers. Great tone, for about 10 minutes until it started smoking.
As long as you didn't use the 100V line, which is meant to see higher impedance speakers, it should be okay. Using the 100V line, it will need 500 ohm speakers to see 20 watts. These speakers usually have a transformer on the other end. Normal stereo speakers will feel like a dead short to the amplifier.
thanks for making this. I do looping with my guitar and keyboard and vocals. can't run the looper through the amp because it distorts the keyboard and vocals. good to know that it's alright to run it through my PA speakers.
I have a 4 channel 70 watt pa chinese made one some small speakers...bout 15 years old maybe 20 bought on ebay works great sound pretty good...sounds great for what it is...
I own a zoom g5n and was using it through a crate 100 watt electric guitar amp and it sounded ok but then I decided to try my Fisham 70 watt acoustic guitar amp which is like a pa speaker and it sounds awesome using the zoom's amp modeling and cabinet simulation. I get some awesome high gain JCM800 sounds and it sounds way clearer through the acoustic amp...go figure.
An Amp is an amp, what you will get in a hi-fi amp is the clean signal, if you want to make it sound like a guitar amp just shape it before you amp it, after all most of the musics hi-fi amps play are from guitars...
Hi there, I have a Peavy XR560M150 powered mixer, two Gemini module GT-1502 speakers and after finding your excellent video, I am motivated to learn to play the guitar! However I really do know nothing about the subject, so can I use these to make up a rig? And is so what do I need to buy to do it? Do hope you can help me out. Kind regards.
Aris Yes! All amps are made for one purpose, to amplify the original signal, no matter if it’s a pa amp, home audio amp, guitar amp, bass amp, car amp, etc!!
Aris most home audio amps can handle a speaker load of 4 ohms which usually says on the back of your amp, and that would be per channel, and also as high as 16 ohms. So if you have a cab or speaker that says 4 ohm, 8 ohm or 16 ohm you will be okay to blast it! Good example, the Ampeg 8x10 cab has 8ten inch speakers all are 32 ohms impedance which are wired together that produces a 4 ohm load and an option to run half the cab (4 top speakers) at 8 ohms. Home audio speakers are also 4 to 8 ohms impedance. So the truth is all amps are capable, but one might make fun of you or give you a hard time if you bring your home theatre amp to a jam or gig, because it may look out of place.
@@chelseam5927 Thank you so much for your reply...i wanted to make sure, gonna buy me a good Orange 2x12 and use my Home Stereo and my Focusrite Audio Interface along my Amp Sim plugins like Amplitube (just making sure bypass the Cab sim). Do you think it could work? I understand the Cab Sim is the part where amp sims sound fizzy or digital sometimes, and always wonder: What if i use amp sims with a real cab but just without Cab sim emulation. Sorry for my bad english.
Something like an SMSL SA98E will give you around 2 x 65W at 8 ohms - should be plenty for making some noise through a couple of efficient 12" guitar speakers, given an effects pedal and maybe splash out on a driverack PA+ just for the EQ and high pass filter - say you don't want to run your guitar speakers below 80Hz for more headroom. My Peavey IPR1600 should be able to make a stack scream! But PA amps are a clean backdrop for an effects pedal, rather than a way to be artistic with the clipping, which doesn't sound all that good on a solid state - more of a spoopy sound. Or go look up some "ear rape" videos on youtube.
Hi bro, thank for the video, and do you believe that I can connect Yamaha THR10 to pa system through output headphone of amplifier with 1 cable stereo to xlr ? Thank you
Hey Paul, I really like your efforts to enlighten people like me. I know you are using guitar speakers @16ohms 30 Watts. I m confused about the combination of speaker capacity and the power amp. I want to build a loud stereo rig for my pedalboard. Around 2-3000 Watts. Will these Celestion guitar speakers work with such high watt amp ? Will i be able to run amp @8ohms to open up its power more.
Hard topic! No one seems to have a clear answer to a really simple need. Nita Strauss connects her Ibanez direct to the house PA system via Boss GT1000. How can the average player do this through a one stop shop pedal board on a budget without being given so much tech data they forget the question?
I noticed that noise as well, would love some confirmation about that.... I'm considering a PA set-up myself and hopefully I wouldn't have that same noise with my humbuckers.
I believe the noise was from the effects console as that particular unit has a habit of being a bit noisy. At 12:40 I play through my pedal board with the same guitar and the noise floor is almost non existent.
can you do the same with a pa tube amp? i'm getting a bogen challenger soon, but I don't have the money to convert it for use as a tube amp head. I was wondering if it even needs to be converted. i've never used an amp head/cabinet combination before.
I don't see why not. Its just a matter of having a preamp that will run the amp to a decent level. PA amps can be a bit deaf and need at least line level in many cases. But not always.
How about matching impedance and power ratings of speakers. Is that any different when using a PA amplifier? I assume there would be some differences since they are generally solid state and not tube. Specifically I am looking at an amp that can put out 530w RMS at 2 x 4 Ohms. I usually use a 4x12 that I know would work but I have been wondering what would happen if I used it with my 1x12 with a 70w Celestion V-Type.
With solid state amps you really only need to avoid going lower than the minimum rated impedance as this can lead to output transistor failure. If you use a higher impedance speaker you will not hurt a solid state amp. In fact you are unable to drive it as hard and thus will increase its reliability. The impedance of that celestion is important and will dictate how much power you can put into it with that amp but 70 watt is well below the output of that amp at 16 Ohms and it will probably blow if you run it at a high volume. I am not saying it cant be done but you need to be aware of how much power you are putting into the speaker when you are using it.
***** If I get this right I can use a PA amp rated at 2x160 W/4 Ohm with my two 10" Celestion K10-70 rated at 8 Ohm each in an open type cab and be safe with that? For starters I'll use my V-amp 2 as preamp to have the option for amp and cab simulation.
pigglo Yes it can be done but your speakers are rated at 70W and you amp at 8 Ohms will put out close to 80W so if you crank the amp up you will run the risk of blowing your speakers.
Hi Paul. Thanks so much for the video. I'm old school, or have been in the past, but using a PA and or powered speakers and a multi effects interests me. Your first set up you said you were using celestion speakers connected to the PA power amp I believe. Are those speakers guitar speakers or PA speakers? Did you use amp simulation with the zoom multi effects? My idea was to use either a rack effects or floor multi effects and powered speaker or floor monitor for stage volume, and use XLR out to the front of house if at a club with their own PA. Shouldn't I be able to use a multi effects and it's stereo outs to 2 powered PA speakers as amps basically as long as I'm using the cab simulation on the multi effects? Can you get the cool feedback playing distorted with connection to PA like you can with a mic'd amp on stage?
Hi, the speakers are vintage 30s 16 ohms. They are guitar speakers and I chose guitar speakers because of their natural roll off. I don't really need to use amp simulation because of this when I use my pedal board. If I were to use PA or powered full range speakers I would need some sort of amp simulation or at a bare minimum an equaliser or filter to roll the highs and lows off. The zoom console by its very nature refers to some of its patches as amps and simulates the distortion and eq to some degree. It does have a post cab simulator near the output which I was not using but I would use if I were to use PA speakers or the like. What you suggest is about using two powered PA speakers is feasible and I have done it in the past. Getting that nice feedback is possible as long as the noise gate on the multi effects is not up to high.
I use a Line 6 Pod x3 live because i play guitar and bass. I was trying to do something like what you are using, the only problem is the speakers, i would need to have 2 cabinets to not damage the guitar speakers (one for guitar and another for the bass). Do you have any suggestion? Another possibility is to use 1 or 2 active speakers, its simpler, portable and i can use the guitar and the bass in the same speaker.
Luis Lopes If you are able to sculpt the EQ of your guitar sound (mostly to cut the highs above 10k and the lows below 100Hz depending on your own taste) you could use a full range active speaker cab or two.Electric bass tends to sound nice with full range speakers and you often see tweeters in bass cabs.Its best if you can try it out, see what it sounds like and how it performs. I have used full range speakers in the past.My very first incarnation of this guitar rig used full range speakers and can be seen here. th-cam.com/video/5cVWzcxGMDE/w-d-xo.html Hope that's helpful.
+Paul Graham (Guitar) This is quite interesting. Are you running any speaker simulators from the Zoom pedalboard? I'm putting together a big rig with a Marshall JMP-1, speaker simulator outputs into a Switchblade GL, into Eventide racks, and output to two QSC K10's. It sounds big but quite flat, not guitar-amp-like. Perhaps as you mentioned I need to add an EQ unit to add the guitar dimensionality (I noticed that you have a 31-band EQ in your pedalboard). Thank you for the great video.
drkam6 I may have run one of the speaker simulators in the zoom console. I know it does have its own eq for each effect. When running the zoom console I don't run a separate equalizer but you may find that you need something to tweak the sound to get it where you want it.
First look at the frequency curves of your speakers. Basses work on the 60 hz to 5 khz, and most of the guitar speakers have flat curves on the 100 hz. Actually comparing the celestion BL 15 (bass speaker) with a V30 (guitar speaker) frequency response curves they are not that different. For bellow 100 hZ we would be talking subwoofers, but then we would lose the high frequencies, and most of the bass cabs do not use subwoofers I also doubt that you can ruin a guitar speaker with a bass ...
This is only logical that a PA amp would sound good as long as you're not on stage that needs Marshalls. After all when you listen to your favorite guitar player you're hearing them through a "PA" essentially. Your home stereo is a PA. So, do they sound good on your entertainment center?
sounds shitty, I am currently connected to a PA system because my amp broke and notice it sounds shitty through a PA system will need to buy a new amp and mic it to the PA
I use a Zoom G1on effects pedal ($60) through my Mackie PA and it sounds great. You need a pedal with amp modeling. My old multi-effects pedal without it sounded bad.
Thanks for the video. I agree with the principle of what you're trying to say. A PA amp is designed to be as neutral as it can be, but there will always be some coloring of the sound that it produces.
All big gigs use the guitar amp or head through a mixer via direct box and a de-loader (if the amp is tube) It makes sense to biuld the tone having in mind this.
Most guitarists don't do "big gigs", most electric guitarists that do need to go through the PA don't use DI boxes but opt for mics. DI sounds awful with electric guitar.
On small gigs most just run their amp without running through a PA.
This setup will not be for everyone and it will sound different to a tube amp to some extent but it will be extremely durable and reliable.
When it comes to guitar amps and effects I really like to break tradition. As they say "tradition is the enemy of change".
Guitar Amps are often mic'd and run through a PA on large stage performances. No one does it the other way around, pushing the mixer output through a guitar setup. Thanks for posting.
I've been searching for speaker frequency response and it's effects.
Well I do! Speaker frequency response alters the EQ of your sound, as does the mic used to mic it up and everything else in the signal chain.
Great video, I've 2 old cabs but currently no head, so this is a perfect alternative for me to use! Thanks for uploading!
Very Very great info and video I for one really appreciate new ways to have easy guitar rigs, computer system rigs or PA speaker based systems I think this is a natural progression for the future of amplifiers
Thankyou, I agree. I have been using PA amps for guitar amps since 2011 and prefer them over any guitar amp.
I once tried running my Pignose as a preamp into a Bogen 20 watt PA power amp then into my stereo speakers. Great tone, for about 10 minutes until it started smoking.
You did something wrong for sure. It's not just connect and go, you need to match the gear with the right specs.
As long as you didn't use the 100V line, which is meant to see higher impedance speakers, it should be okay. Using the 100V line, it will need 500 ohm speakers to see 20 watts. These speakers usually have a transformer on the other end. Normal stereo speakers will feel like a dead short to the amplifier.
Very thorough. Thanks!
thanks for making this. I do looping with my guitar and keyboard and vocals. can't run the looper through the amp because it distorts the keyboard and vocals. good to know that it's alright to run it through my PA speakers.
I have a 4 channel 70 watt pa chinese made one some small speakers...bout 15 years old maybe 20 bought on ebay works great sound pretty good...sounds great for what it is...
I like the pedalboard.. i want to make one almost exact would work well for me.. nice job on the video !
I own a zoom g5n and was using it through a crate 100 watt electric guitar amp and it sounded ok but then I decided to try my Fisham 70 watt acoustic guitar amp which is like a pa speaker and it sounds awesome using the zoom's amp modeling and cabinet simulation. I get some awesome high gain JCM800 sounds and it sounds way clearer through the acoustic amp...go figure.
I was going to write the same thing. I use the Zoom G1on through my powered Mackie PA speakers and it works great.
Very helpful demonstration, thank you.
Thank you for making this video.
An Amp is an amp, what you will get in a hi-fi amp is the clean signal, if you want to make it sound like a guitar amp just shape it before you amp it, after all most of the musics hi-fi amps play are from guitars...
Thank You Paul!!
Hi there, I have a Peavy XR560M150 powered mixer, two Gemini module GT-1502 speakers and after finding your excellent video, I am motivated to learn to play the guitar! However I really do know nothing about the subject, so can I use these to make up a rig? And is so what do I need to buy to do it? Do hope you can help me out. Kind regards.
Thanks for the video
great info , I'm using a PA amp for Bass guitar, but can I use just one channel on the PA amp, to use just one speaker? Thanks for the info.
Hi, can a real guitar Cab me powered by a PA Amplifier such as a Sony Home Theater perhaps?
Aris Yes! All amps are made for one purpose, to amplify the original signal, no matter if it’s a pa amp, home audio amp, guitar amp, bass amp, car amp, etc!!
@@chelseam5927 I was worried about blowing up my home stereo with a real guitar cab, impedance, voltage, etc...can you elaborate more?
Aris most home audio amps can handle a speaker load of 4 ohms which usually says on the back of your amp, and that would be per channel, and also as high as 16 ohms. So if you have a cab or speaker that says 4 ohm, 8 ohm or 16 ohm you will be okay to blast it! Good example, the Ampeg 8x10 cab has 8ten inch speakers all are 32 ohms impedance which are wired together that produces a 4 ohm load and an option to run half the cab (4 top speakers) at 8 ohms. Home audio speakers are also 4 to 8 ohms impedance. So the truth is all amps are capable, but one might make fun of you or give you a hard time if you bring your home theatre amp to a jam or gig, because it may look out of place.
@@chelseam5927 Thank you so much for your reply...i wanted to make sure, gonna buy me a good Orange 2x12 and use my Home Stereo and my Focusrite Audio Interface along my Amp Sim plugins like Amplitube (just making sure bypass the Cab sim). Do you think it could work? I understand the Cab Sim is the part where amp sims sound fizzy or digital sometimes, and always wonder: What if i use amp sims with a real cab but just without Cab sim emulation.
Sorry for my bad english.
Something like an SMSL SA98E will give you around 2 x 65W at 8 ohms - should be plenty for making some noise through a couple of efficient 12" guitar speakers, given an effects pedal and maybe splash out on a driverack PA+ just for the EQ and high pass filter - say you don't want to run your guitar speakers below 80Hz for more headroom.
My Peavey IPR1600 should be able to make a stack scream!
But PA amps are a clean backdrop for an effects pedal, rather than a way to be artistic with the clipping, which doesn't sound all that good on a solid state - more of a spoopy sound. Or go look up some "ear rape" videos on youtube.
Love it!
Hi bro, thank for the video, and do you believe that I can connect Yamaha THR10 to pa system through output headphone of amplifier with 1 cable stereo to xlr ? Thank you
Can i amplify my Orange Guitar Cab with My Home Stereo? maybe using plugin amp sims without its modeling cabinets?
Depends on the ohms on the cab, but there should be no problem with that.
Hey Paul, I really like your efforts to enlighten people like me. I know you are using guitar speakers @16ohms 30 Watts. I m confused about the combination of speaker capacity and the power amp. I want to build a loud stereo rig for my pedalboard. Around 2-3000 Watts. Will these Celestion guitar speakers work with such high watt amp ? Will i be able to run amp @8ohms to open up its power more.
Hard topic! No one seems to have a clear answer to a really simple need. Nita Strauss connects her Ibanez direct to the house PA system via Boss GT1000. How can the average player do this through a one stop shop pedal board on a budget without being given so much tech data they forget the question?
Would a powermixer work in the same way? I'm a noob and asking just to be sure, the "Behringer PMP550M
" to be precise.
A power mixer will do a similar job. You will have a a few more adjustments at your disposal with the mixer.
In lieu of a "graphic equalizer" pedal - would a small mixing board do the same job? Thanks!
A mixer if it has some sort of EQ will give you some control.
All you can do is try it and find out if you like the way it sounds.
I have just got the same pa amp how can I contact you directly?
I'm guessing the noise issue was more due to single coils? I have always heard how bad guitars through a P.A. sounds. You have shown otherwise IMO.
I noticed that noise as well, would love some confirmation about that.... I'm considering a PA set-up myself and hopefully I wouldn't have that same noise with my humbuckers.
I believe the noise was from the effects console as that particular unit has a habit of being a bit noisy. At 12:40 I play through my pedal board with the same guitar and the noise floor is almost non existent.
Ahh, ok, that makes sense.
I hooked up pa last night after my guitar amp crapped out and it actually sounded fucking better!
can you do the same with a pa tube amp? i'm getting a bogen challenger soon, but I don't have the money to convert it for use as a tube amp head. I was wondering if it even needs to be converted. i've never used an amp head/cabinet combination before.
I don't see why not. Its just a matter of having a preamp that will run the amp to a decent level.
PA amps can be a bit deaf and need at least line level in many cases. But not always.
How about matching impedance and power ratings of speakers. Is that any different when using a PA amplifier? I assume there would be some differences since they are generally solid state and not tube.
Specifically I am looking at an amp that can put out 530w RMS at 2 x 4 Ohms. I usually use a 4x12 that I know would work but I have been wondering what would happen if I used it with my 1x12 with a 70w Celestion V-Type.
With solid state amps you really only need to avoid going lower than the minimum rated impedance as this can lead to output transistor failure.
If you use a higher impedance speaker you will not hurt a solid state amp. In fact you are unable to drive it as hard and thus will increase its reliability.
The impedance of that celestion is important and will dictate how much power you can put into it with that amp but 70 watt is well below the output of that amp at 16 Ohms and it will probably blow if you run it at a high volume.
I am not saying it cant be done but you need to be aware of how much power you are putting into the speaker when you are using it.
***** If I get this right I can use a PA amp rated at 2x160 W/4 Ohm with my two 10" Celestion K10-70 rated at 8 Ohm each in an open type cab and be safe with that? For starters I'll use my V-amp 2 as preamp to have the option for amp and cab simulation.
pigglo Yes it can be done but your speakers are rated at 70W and you amp at 8 Ohms will put out close to 80W so if you crank the amp up you will run the risk of blowing your speakers.
Hi Paul. Thanks so much for the video. I'm old school, or have been in the past, but using a PA and or powered speakers and a multi effects interests me.
Your first set up you said you were using celestion speakers connected to the PA power amp I believe. Are those speakers guitar speakers or PA speakers? Did you use amp simulation with the zoom multi effects?
My idea was to use either a rack effects or floor multi effects and powered speaker or floor monitor for stage volume, and use XLR out to the front of house if at a club with their own PA.
Shouldn't I be able to use a multi effects and it's stereo outs to 2 powered PA speakers as amps basically as long as I'm using the cab simulation on the multi effects?
Can you get the cool feedback playing distorted with connection to PA like you can with a mic'd amp on stage?
Hi, the speakers are vintage 30s 16 ohms. They are guitar speakers and I chose guitar speakers because of their natural roll off. I don't really need to use amp simulation because of this when I use my pedal board.
If I were to use PA or powered full range speakers I would need some sort of amp simulation or at a bare minimum an equaliser or filter to roll the highs and lows off.
The zoom console by its very nature refers to some of its patches as amps and simulates the distortion and eq to some degree.
It does have a post cab simulator near the output which I was not using but I would use if I were to use PA speakers or the like.
What you suggest is about using two powered PA speakers is feasible and I have done it in the past.
Getting that nice feedback is possible as long as the noise gate on the multi effects is not up to high.
I use a Line 6 Pod x3 live because i play guitar and bass. I was trying to do something like what you are using, the only problem is the speakers, i would need to have 2 cabinets to not damage the guitar speakers (one for guitar and another for the bass). Do you have any suggestion? Another possibility is to use 1 or 2 active speakers, its simpler, portable and i can use the guitar and the bass in the same speaker.
Luis Lopes If you are able to sculpt the EQ of your guitar sound (mostly to cut the highs above 10k and the lows below 100Hz depending on your own taste) you could use a full range active speaker cab or two.Electric bass tends to sound nice with full range speakers and you often see tweeters in bass cabs.Its best if you can try it out, see what it sounds like and how it performs. I have used full range speakers in the past.My very first incarnation of this guitar rig used full range speakers and can be seen here. th-cam.com/video/5cVWzcxGMDE/w-d-xo.html Hope that's helpful.
+Paul Graham (Guitar) This is quite interesting. Are you running any speaker simulators from the Zoom pedalboard? I'm putting together a big rig with a Marshall JMP-1, speaker simulator outputs into a Switchblade GL, into Eventide racks, and output to two QSC K10's. It sounds big but quite flat, not guitar-amp-like. Perhaps as you mentioned I need to add an EQ unit to add the guitar dimensionality (I noticed that you have a 31-band EQ in your pedalboard). Thank you for the great video.
drkam6 I may have run one of the speaker simulators in the zoom console. I know it does have its own eq for each effect. When running the zoom console I don't run a separate equalizer but you may find that you need something to tweak the sound to get it where you want it.
First look at the frequency curves of your speakers. Basses work on the 60 hz to 5 khz, and most of the guitar speakers have flat curves on the 100 hz. Actually comparing the celestion BL 15 (bass speaker) with a V30 (guitar speaker) frequency response curves they are not that different. For bellow 100 hZ we would be talking subwoofers, but then we would lose the high frequencies, and most of the bass cabs do not use subwoofers
I also doubt that you can ruin a guitar speaker with a bass ...
Will the PA system will give you feedback?
Generally it behaves much the same as a guitar amp with respect to feedback.
Could you just run into a pa that has its own eq/reverb with just one fuzz pedal (no graphic eq)
also could you use a guitar 4x12 speaker instead of pa speakers?
Yes you could but PA speakers have HF drivers or tweeters that will make for a bright harsh sound from your guitar.
If you don't overdrive an amp, you will not ruin any speakers. Has long has you are not clipping, you will be ok
I'm from outer space.
This is only logical that a PA amp would sound good as long as you're not on stage that needs Marshalls. After all when you listen to your favorite guitar player you're hearing them through a "PA" essentially. Your home stereo is a PA. So, do they sound good on your entertainment center?
sounds shitty, I am currently connected to a PA system because my amp broke and notice it sounds shitty through a PA system will need to buy a new amp and mic it to the PA
I use a Zoom G1on effects pedal ($60) through my Mackie PA and it sounds great. You need a pedal with amp modeling. My old multi-effects pedal without it sounded bad.
Look at the camera watching you look away all the time is annoying as hell.
Who gives a fuck what you think?