American Eagle 4184: The Crash That Changed Aviation Safety | Aircraft Icing & ATR 72 | Flight 4182

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ต.ค. 2024

ความคิดเห็น • 95

  • @FlywithMagnar
    @FlywithMagnar  9 หลายเดือนก่อน +15

    Correction: At 10:15, I say that the left aleron moves up when the control wheel is moved to the right. Of course, it moves down, as the image shows.

  • @claudescarpelli8899
    @claudescarpelli8899 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +7

    Thank you Magnar (first name edited) for this thorough review on flight into icing conditions. Very interesting. I agree it may have been longer. I’m looking forward to watch more video from you.
    Best regards,
    Claude (Cessna 172 IR pilot)

    • @claudescarpelli8899
      @claudescarpelli8899 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Sorry, your first name is Magnar. My apologies.

  • @mcptz1438
    @mcptz1438 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +17

    Linked here because of today's ATR-72 crash in southern Brazil.
    Very informative video. Thanks.
    Likely due to severe ice conditions, as reported between FL110 and FL210 by another aircraft.
    The 2Z2283 / PTB2283 was cruising at FL170, according to history on flight radar.

    • @jimlthor
      @jimlthor 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      This dude is awesome and knows his stuff. Been watching him for a few years, even though I'm not a pilot. The ATR is just a neat plane

  • @sunshineflyer
    @sunshineflyer หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Wow, classy shout-out to Disaster Breakdown! I love seeing subject-area colleagues recognizing and encouraging each other. 🤩

  • @georgiak6017
    @georgiak6017 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

    Lovely, calm documentary and incredibly well-explained.

  • @maxenielsen
    @maxenielsen 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Magnar, I always learn a lot from your videos. The depth and breadth of knowledge you have, and share, is a rare strength. How do you do it?
    I love the technical aspects of flight, and always have. One of my very favorite and happiest college classes was fluid mechanics and thermodynamics at Brigham Young University. My professor was a retired USAF test pilot who had flown P-51s in combat.
    While leading his squadron, he dove down to investigate a train. The sides on a boxcar dropped down, exposing anti-aircraft guns. His Mustang got hit and he lost most of his fuel. Applying his aerodynamics knowledge, he had two other pilots fly wingtip-to-wingtip with him and he made it back to base. Effectively, the aspect ratio of the wing became greater and improved the lift-to-drag ratio.
    I’m an engineer, an electrical engineer. And while a lot of people, including engineers in other disciplines, regard electricity and electronics as unfathomable, and regard electrical engineers as wizards, I think pilots like you are the real wizards.
    While I love the physics and engineering of flight, I could never do what you and other good pilots do: keep track of such a multitude of flight behaviors and aerodynamic principles. You have my deep respect and appreciation.
    Thank you for this highly informative video!

    • @maxenielsen
      @maxenielsen 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      And, I meant to mention the voluminous regulations and procedures. For navigating and managing all those and, sometimes with only seconds to sort out which ones are relevant and applicable, you and other pilots have my deep respect.
      Thank you for making air travel so amazingly safe.
      Thanks again for the video.

  • @kalashnikovdabs
    @kalashnikovdabs 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    These disaster breakdowns are great keep up the good work captain!

  • @jetnoise6053
    @jetnoise6053 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

    Very well explored and explained - thank you Magnar !!!

  • @Mssesteves
    @Mssesteves 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +32

    In Brazil, an aircraft with 61 passengers and crew crashed today, 09/08/2024, I believe it was due to the same problem described here.

    • @AnaheimBN
      @AnaheimBN 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +6

      Yes, I'm also here just right after hearing the news. Sounds very similar.

    • @pbpunisher99
      @pbpunisher99 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

      I agree, I was working ops at ord for Simmons when the crash happened. Remember it like it was yesterday. These are not good aircraft in icing conditions. And hearing those engines at max power is exactly the opposite of what the emergency procedures say to do for loss of control due to icing. Not that I'm judging, I was not in the cockpit.

    • @alfredochona2534
      @alfredochona2534 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      My first taught was this crash when I saw the Brazilian accident.

    • @serowtravellog1841
      @serowtravellog1841 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

      Severe icing was announced
      Pilots should call mayday and descend
      This did not happen

    • @NovejSpeed3
      @NovejSpeed3 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      The plane that crashed in Brazil had a history of issues. It suffered a really bad tail strike that had grounded it for repair and had other ac and electrical issues. Though the icing may likely be the cause....it is still too early to speculate!

  • @chriskirkland1347
    @chriskirkland1347 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +7

    Good concise explanation of this accident. One of the factors in this accident was a lax atmosphere in the cockpit in recognized icing conditions. A good subject for a future video would be to address complacency amongst crews in automated cockpit environments. Thanks

    • @musiqtee
      @musiqtee 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Good idea. Still, Magnar did mention the importance of flying the aircraft manually if icing gets closer to critical. Also increase speed to or above icing speed bug, and descend for speed and exiting the adverse meteorological conditions, not awaiting ATC clearance.
      I would guess (!) MCT power selected, maybe also throttles forward of auto, manual use of condition levers to increase prop speed if needed - and vigilant monitoring! Hands-on flying should give PF good mechanical feedback, and maybe the ability to react to this dangerous ctl-surface deflection…?
      Yes, *guessing* because I’m *not* a pilot…
      Well made, sourced and explained, capt. Magnar…! 👍

    • @cantstandtheestablishment4004
      @cantstandtheestablishment4004 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Yeah, if you read the NTSB report, the crew was not focused on the situation and did not comprehend its seriousness.

  • @bbgun061
    @bbgun061 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

    Thank you for this video. It’s good to know that changes have been made based on our new understanding of ice formation. But disheartening that pilots still fail to respond appropriately to keep their aircraft flying. It’s up to us as pilots to do whatever it takes to save our own lives, as well as the lives of our passengers. If that means busting an altitude clearance, so be it!

  • @x-planeliveriesandstuffsho1074
    @x-planeliveriesandstuffsho1074 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    Nice to see that one of my liveries finaly found it's way into one of your videos :D

  • @josephcameron530
    @josephcameron530 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    Very interesting presentation. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us.

  • @jameschen9099
    @jameschen9099 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    excellent analysis and will help current and future pilots. thanks.

  • @hazeover100
    @hazeover100 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +6

    I was living in Chicago on that Halloween in 1994. The weather was terrible, very windy with mixed precipitation. I've been on a good amount of 72's over the years and have always thought the wings looked a little narrow/out of proportion for the size of the aircraft.

    • @malcolmwhite6588
      @malcolmwhite6588 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@gottadomor7438 An American Eagle pilot who had been trying to raise the issues that ultimately got discovered about the ATR became what is popularly known now as a whistle blower , the company tried to discredit him they Demoted and I believe ultimately sacked him- a tragic story I don’t know if he commercially flew after that?he wrote a book called “unheeded warning -the inside story of American Eagle 4184”his name is captain Stephen a Frederick I’ve heard him speak he is very articulate

    • @hazeover100
      @hazeover100 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      ​@@gottadomor7438I actually slipped and hit the deck crossing Clark Street at North Ave later that night so two of the three best Bears players of all time did better than me.

  • @stevekirk8546
    @stevekirk8546 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Excellent explanation and very clearly presented. Thank you.

  • @FlyingInEurope
    @FlyingInEurope 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Best aviation content in TH-cam! Learning a lot from you, thanks!

    • @ernestoherreralegorreta137
      @ernestoherreralegorreta137 3 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Agreed. My thoughts exactly after having just discovered it. Most informative and zero sensationalism.

  • @MichaelReutlinger
    @MichaelReutlinger 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Thank you Captain, this was a highly educational video.

  • @CatarineausArmory
    @CatarineausArmory 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Thanks Magnar. I thought that they changed the inflatable ribs from horizontal to vertical when they redesigned the boots for this icing solution.

  • @daveroche6522
    @daveroche6522 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Very well explored and explained - thank you Sir.

  • @micheldriessen5081
    @micheldriessen5081 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    I have more than 3000 hours on this aircraft over Europe, Asia and Africa. The normal cruise levels are unfortunately at the altitudes of the worst icing. The anti-icing system works very well and I had never any problem in moderate icing. An American Eagle pilot however warned for the US weather with more frequent severe icing and the need to react without delay, as experience proves. Overall a great and safe aircraft.

  • @yosefthomas804
    @yosefthomas804 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    An ATR-72 just crashed today in Vinhedo, São Paulo, Brazil. I think i could have been for the same reason 😢

  • @pilotpat86
    @pilotpat86 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Great work, thanks for sharing!

  • @AdurianJ
    @AdurianJ 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Linjeflyg Flight 618 had a similar crash where the extension of flaps in icing conditions caused the airflow over the wing to separate. They dived straight down into a parking lot near Bromma Airport.

    • @FlywithMagnar
      @FlywithMagnar  9 หลายเดือนก่อน +6

      That was tailplane stall

  • @arb6591
    @arb6591 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Very interesting. Thank you, Captain!!!

  • @caili999
    @caili999 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    The Brazilian ATR accident today is pertinent

  • @F4LDT-Alain
    @F4LDT-Alain 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Excellent video with very complete, detailed information well explained for non-pilots to understand.
    It sheds light on the recent accident in Brazil.
    Airspeed data at the time of the first sudden altitude loss is not public at this time, so we can't use this information to identify a probable cause.
    I hope that you'll make a new video when information starts being released, maybe in 30 days...

  • @helianocabral9832
    @helianocabral9832 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Certainly icing was a factor in the accident with an ATR 72-500 that happened in Brazil. It remains to be seen if the recall procedures issued by ATR - and approved as a solution by the certification authorities of several countries - are enough to prevent incidents and accidents due to icing. On the day of the accident (and I live some 18 miles from the accident site ) there were several reports of severe icing from 8000ft all the way to 21000ft. Some of the pilots flying that day said that they've never seen such heavy icing before. An A320 pilot reported to Sao Paulo Approach the heavy icing and that his "side window completely covered with rime ice". The accident happened inside Sao Paulo's TMA. The investigators will have to verify if 1) The autopilot was kept engaged for too long, even after the icing was detected; 2) If the pilots used Max Continuous Power and initiated the descent immediately. However I suspect (I just suspect, I have no confirmation data) that the recall procedures may not be enough given such a huge range of altitudes with heavy icing.

    • @Sokol10
      @Sokol10 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      In the 2013 serious incident with ATR-72 of TRIP Linhas Aéreas in Northeast of Brazil - too with 64 peoples onboard; in a night flight who face ice conditions, the pilots not turn off autopilot, they turn on anti-ice devices, but don't turn on de-icing boots for wings and engines nacelles, PIC fight against stick pusher, PM feathered the propellers - aircraft manual recommend set in 100%. Plane fall 5000 feet's, but control was regained and after land safety in the destination. (Relatório Final IG-136/CENIPA/2013).

  • @NicolaW72
    @NicolaW72 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    It lasted only 34 years to implement the appropriate new Rules!☹ Thank you very much for the Debrief of this infamous Crash, usually called the Roselawn Desaster.

  • @sofloemir
    @sofloemir 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Hey Magnar, Microsoft Flight Simulator just did a big update to the ATR. I enjoy your how to videos with that plane on MFS. Can you check you the updates and give us your thoughts on it?

  • @Allan_aka_RocKITEman
    @Allan_aka_RocKITEman 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

    FWIW: I just started watching this video.
    I subbed to _this channel_ AND to _Disaster Breakdown._

  • @MBkufel
    @MBkufel 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

    After watching the last animation in the video I'm puzzled. Why would anyone pull upon shaker activation

    • @dermick
      @dermick 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Inadequate training.

  • @Allan_aka_RocKITEman
    @Allan_aka_RocKITEman 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

    At about 28:27 in this video: As a Chief Petty Officer I worked for in the US Coast Guard used to say...
    *_"There is NEVER enough time to do it right THE FIRST TIME, but there is ALWAYS enough time to do it right THE SECOND TIME."_*

  • @Allan_aka_RocKITEman
    @Allan_aka_RocKITEman 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    At 37:38 in this video: Does anyone know what the story was behind this Lockheed C-130 being iced up? {The same image is also shown earlier in this video.}
    As best as I can remember, Lockheed C-130s have some form of radome anti-icing and/or de-icing. I was wondering if the icing system on this particular aircraft failed?

  • @federicoalonso7478
    @federicoalonso7478 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Hi, I just looked this amazing video. I would like to add to your list of other passenger turboprop crash the SOL flight 5428 SAAB 340A Accident in Argentina due to severe icing conditions. It also experienced a reversal aileron uncommanded roll.

  • @markr.1984
    @markr.1984 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I was at Indianapolis airport sending my wife off on an American Trans Air (ATA) flight to Miami that afternoon and evening. I probably saw some of the doomed and poor people since they were boarding about the same time. Probably walked right by some of them. Just glad my wife got on a different plane!! I found out about that crash the next day.

    • @markoconnell957
      @markoconnell957 หลายเดือนก่อน

      I also was airborne at the time of the Roselawn accident. Comfortably sitting up front in a Boeing 757 of NWA. we traversed not far from that area while inbound for DTW.

  • @marlonricky4884
    @marlonricky4884 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    today an atr72 crashed in Brazil and went into a tailspin

    • @maxenielsen
      @maxenielsen 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      I think the order was the other way around.
      Levity aside, this was a terrible accident. The pilots, crew, and passengers must have endured awful terror. Very sad.

  • @n310ea
    @n310ea 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Does the Lockheed C-130 have the same icing problem as other turboprops?

  • @philou838
    @philou838 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Doomed flight, Vinhedo, Brazil, August 9 2024, 30 years later, more 62 lives are lost.😢Same model ATR-72 and again probably ice build up on the wings led to loss control of the aircraft . Same history, different timing. Sad to see that no correction actions were taken.

  • @charlesvon155
    @charlesvon155 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    ATR’s are notoriously not good in icing conditions, although that’s very well known & pilots are well trained on how to avoid stalling so that’s most likely a contributing factor but not all behind this

  • @arb6591
    @arb6591 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Thanks!

  • @kcnairnair7299
    @kcnairnair7299 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

    Does FAA stand for F***All Always?

    • @TRPGpilot
      @TRPGpilot 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      No. Its an abreviation of Federal Aviation Administration which is a federal agency and is based in the United Staes of America which is equivalent to the Civil Aviation Authority of the United Kingdom where i'm currently based.

  • @rustyneedles3743
    @rustyneedles3743 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Very informative content, though I must say, you do drag it on a bit, almost fell asleep sitting through this one ... 🤣

  • @HarryFortyTwo
    @HarryFortyTwo 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    time for an update or addendum
    to that video for obvious reasons. the atr 72 may still not be safe enough in extreme icing.

    • @ivansemanco6976
      @ivansemanco6976 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Which airplane certified before 2015 is safe in severe icing?

    • @HarryFortyTwo
      @HarryFortyTwo หลายเดือนก่อน

      true - i guess none is. especially if the pilots ignore the warning signs.

  • @ДенисБ-е8й
    @ДенисБ-е8й 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    UT 120, Tumen, 2012...

  • @sergiomonsalve6488
    @sergiomonsalve6488 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    He seems to be spot on! Sadly happened again

  • @mebeasensei
    @mebeasensei 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Didn’t change it enough in August 2024. Brazil.

  • @David-hk3ly
    @David-hk3ly 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +8

    ATR 72 's are flying coffins. The whole configuration of narrow wings, poor de-icing and history of crashes does not inspire confidence.

    • @marcg1686
      @marcg1686 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Any aircraft crewed by pilots not sufficiently aware of recommended stall avoidance procedures is a potential flying coffin.
      The Q400 has a higher aspect ratio than the ATR 72.

    • @markoconnell957
      @markoconnell957 หลายเดือนก่อน

      I traveled weekly for 30 plus years and refused to fly on the ATR aircraft. A refreshing 4 hour auto drive was well worth the inconveniece.

  • @keithwalker6892
    @keithwalker6892 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    These aircraft should be grounded. I would not fly in one. The French blame these accidents on the pilot. It’s NOT the pilot it’s the aircraft

    • @FlywithMagnar
      @FlywithMagnar  หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      In the case of Flight 4184, the NTSB put the blame of the manufactuerer and the aviation authorities (DCAC and FAA), and obsolete certification requirements. But after ATR revised the de-icing boots and the procedures, all ice-related incidents and accidents have happened because the pilots let the aircraft to fly too slow.

  • @TheNapalmFTW
    @TheNapalmFTW 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

    The crash site is 20 minutes from my house. I've visited it. Very sobering.

  • @roybladea6180
    @roybladea6180 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Han habido varios accidentes con este tipo de avion por culpa de acumulacion de hielo. American Eagle 4184 31 Oct 1994 en EU.Trans Asia vuelo 791 .Diciembre 21 2002.Aereo Caribe vuelo 883.Noviembre 4 2010.y Utair vuelo 120 Abril 2 2012.

  • @alexanderarteaga7630
    @alexanderarteaga7630 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    First thumbs up😊

  • @JoeyFlyBoy
    @JoeyFlyBoy 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    It happened again

  • @paulomarcelo
    @paulomarcelo 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Why hasn't this airplane model been banned from flying worldwide yet? The lives of the people who board this type of airplane depend on luck (if there's ice, it's a certain death)

    • @esgermantonio
      @esgermantonio 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      All Larger Jets like Boeings or Airbus are not SLD ice certified either. There are deicing systems and protocols to avoid icing conditions.

    • @esgermantonio
      @esgermantonio 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      However ATR and others kind of type of airplane are the ones that face more icing conditions in tropical countries because their turboprop FL normal operations. 30 degrees Celsius at sea level is 0 degrees Celsius at FL15

    • @marcg1686
      @marcg1686 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      The ATR series has not been banned because it is not necessary. If the pilots stick to the authorised check list flights into icing conditions are uneventful.

  • @MeaHeaR
    @MeaHeaR 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

    At 10:15 he is Wholly INCORRECT, , the way aircraft are designe only Allows ONÉ aileron to be move up whist t'other movéd down. This is what be provide roll. the aileron CANNOT both be move upp or down att Samé timés
    😟😟😰😩😩😰😟

    • @FlywithMagnar
      @FlywithMagnar  9 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

      My bad. Thank you for correcting me.

  • @markoconnell957
    @markoconnell957 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I can't help but thinking that with the long history of icing issues with the ATR and similar aircraft for over 30 years that aspects of this design is flawed. In todays anti US manufactured products there would have been much more backlash. Had this machine been a product of the Seattle Washington area the US media would have already called for a grounding and perhaps an outright ban of this machine.

    • @marcg1686
      @marcg1686 หลายเดือนก่อน

      In every recorded accident (except for Flight 4184) where ATR crews flew into icing conditions they let the airspeed decay to the point where they stalled the plane.
      Speed is life.
      Nose down.
      Auto pilot off.
      MCT.

  • @juanmanuelgomezmartinez3795
    @juanmanuelgomezmartinez3795 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    The most important thing in aviation industry is MONEY, not lives, childrens, families, SAFETY. Very sad….. MONEY

  • @ilia9876
    @ilia9876 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    The anti-freezing wing boots was to thin
    After the accident they were increased segnifantly
    Still just bcs of this accident no northern country use them LoL

    • @Rookie_One
      @Rookie_One 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

      No true, Inter-canadien continued to use the ATR until their bankruptcy (caused by the collapse of Canadian Airlines), and Canadian North, Air North and Calm Air still use the ATR.
      In Europe DAT still use them too

    • @NicolaW72
      @NicolaW72 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@Rookie_One And NORRA, a subsidiary of Finnair, Logan Air in Scotland and Bra in Sweden, too. There´re probably more Dash-Operators in the Northern Countries than ATR-Operators but ATR are still commonly in use there. Only in the US the ATR were practically outfleeted alltogether after this Crash.

    • @Rookie_One
      @Rookie_One 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      @@NicolaW72 Outside of the biggest operators, most smaller operators here in canada use the ATR.
      That said, Bombardier at the time killed the dash8-300 and only produced the -400, while most smaller operators don't need the -400 and would had bought a newer -300, which mean that most of them switched to the ATR42 if they were not using it already

    • @NicolaW72
      @NicolaW72 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@Rookie_One I´m not aware about the fleet sizes of all the relevant Airlines in Canada, I know only that Jazz Aviation, Porter and Westjet Encore are using the Dash 8 and they´re some sort of the "Big Three" of the Regional Airlines in Canada - at least as much as I know.
      I looked a little bit more about Nordic European Regional Operators and I recognized that after the bankruptcy of Flybe in the UK only Wideröe in Norway is using Dash 8. Emerald in Ireland and the UK and Xfly in Estonia are using ATR, too. RAF-Avia in Latvia is using ATR and Saab 340 and Airest and Nyxair, both based in Estonia, are still Saab-Operators, Nyxair even with some remaining Saab 2000, allthough this are now very aged aircrafts.

    • @Rookie_One
      @Rookie_One 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@NicolaW72 most smaller operators runs place where the big 3 don't go. Calm air, Canadian north, air north, etc...