Thank you for your videos. I'm only an entusiast of aviation and I love ATRs, but learning this questions and so very well explained is wonderful. Greetings from Spain!
I had experienced ICING alert on the ground during a drizzle even with temperatures above 25C. It is quite annoying especially when you're about to takeoff as we always get undue alert of "CHECK TO SPD" and it ruins the takeoff data. But the most dangerous experience I had with this problem is during flight in a light rain with OAT around 21C because it was already in a final approach for landing. We were maintaining Vapp that time then ICING alert came on and off intermittently. With ICING message the stall threshold increases, and with the current Vapp speed in normal condition it is way below the Vmin OPS for icing. The speed is just right above the solid red line on the airspeed ind. I'm a bit worried because we might get a shaker and pusher during approach at a lower altitude
I have never heard about this problem in flight. However, an icing alert does not increase Vmin OPS. The stall threshold is only increased when the ICING AOA light is illuminated. (FCOM.DSC.31.14)
@@FlywithMagnar i'm not really sure how it happened that way but I noticed the fluctuation of my Vmin OPS during the intermittent icing alert. I was PF that time, my Captain also called out for speed check as it goes down below Vref. I added around 15kts more to my Vapp to have ample room just in case
This is the third time I saw this video but everytime I learn something new. I got Icing amber light during taxi in rain in ATR 72-500 in temperature well above icing conditions.
I actually land an atr72600 in sever ocong condintions in monclova and we cant take off 3 days until sun melt everything. That was a very difficult land but, I forget to mention my going around before land and the invertion on ground temperature.
What's the reason why side windows are heated partially? Can the engineers attach a heated film in between just like the windshields where the whole glass is heated?
Hi, I had to do some research to answer this question. According to the information I have received, the reason is that the heated area provides forward visibility in case the windscreen heating has failed. Secondly, DC electrical power cannot be used to heat a film. Hence the thin wires, similar the rear window of a car. Third, it's also a question about cost. If the regulation doesn't require it, you don't have to install it. Every part of an aircraft is insanely expensive.
@@FlywithMagnar Thank you for all the effort looking for the answer captain! I greatly appreciate it! Those are just curious things I observed in ATR it is also nice to know the reasons behind it. It might also be the same engineering logic behind why ATR spoilers don't deploy upon touchdown, maybe its not that very efficient to slow down the plane because it is too small
@@filipefelicio2364 Keep in mind that no aircraft is certified to operate in severe icing conditions regardless of fully working anti-ice and de-icing systems. Sorry about the english, hopefully you understand.
Thoroughly enjoy all of your videos Magnar! Contrary to a lot of providers of aviation related content out there, you always make it very interesting AND informative!!
The ICING alert has been a source of great frustration for me as it doesnt take much rain to trigger it on the ground. My worst case was when an ICING alert triggered right at the moment of initiating Take-off before the power levers reached the notch and T/O inhibit. This resulting in a very low speed abort. There used to be a loose company policy to recalculate for an icing takeoff if you get an icing alert on the ground but now i see we can just wait for the 60sec and continue with normal conditions.
Respect for your videos, so nice and understanding a big Bravo Mr Magnar every time I want to review a system I just have to see your videos you have simplified my life, i am new Captain in this aircraft Thank you so much
how do you remove "prot level"? If you don't have a yoke at hand and fly only with AP you can't use vertical speed to descent and you are stuck with ice at the same flight level at TOD. Very interesting situation. (in FS2020)
I was watching the ATR72-500 accident in Brazil where icing conditions are mentioned in the media as a possible cause of the flat spin resulting in the crash. From this video I understand that de-icing is actually something you need to take care off to do it properly. The ATR is certified to fly under icing conditions, if the media suggestion is right then someone may have made an error on the controls described here, still it doesn’t explain the flat spin I saw.
FINAL REPORT IG-136/CENIPA/2013 (PP-PTU_26JUL2013_ing_IG.pdf) - Report of serious incident in similar situation in Northeast of Brazil in 2013, pilots turn on anti-ice and de-icing devices - but not the boots for wings and engine nacelles; when the autopilot turn off the PIC fight against the stick pusher, the PM feathered the propellers - aircraft manual instruct set in 100%. Plane fall for ~5000 feet's, but the control was regained and the aircraft safety landing in the destination.
Hello captain is there any difference between Minimum Severe Icing Speed (MSIS) and Icing Bug? I was reading the new ATR-600 FCOM and stumbled upon some info in DSC.30.8.2.1. (CONTROLS) it says "INCREASE SPEED caution is generated when the aircraft speed is lower than Minimum Severe Icing Speed (MSIS) +2kt." However in DSC.30.8.4.3 (SYSTEM MONITORING) "INCREASE SPEED Alert, In level flight: Drag abnormally high and IAS below ICING BUG +10kt -or- In climb: Drag abnormally high and loss of rate of climb and IAS below ICING BUG +10kt" I'm a bit confused about these two speeds (MSIS and ICING BUG). Where can we find the values for MSIS if ever?
MSIS is icing bug +10. Here is the answer from ATR: "ATR confirms that the INCREASE SPEED caution is intended to be triggered when the degraded perf alert is triggered and IAS below Icing Bug + 10 kt. This is in coherence with DSC.30.8.4.3. Because the IAS used by the APM is an average of the last 10 second and the increase speed alert is usually triggered in altitude hold mode where the consequence of the performance degradation is on the cruise speed, a 2 kt margin have been added to the Icing bug +10 to ensure the alert will be displayed at ICING BUG +10 at least. In case of climb, because the speed is constant, the INCREASE SPEED will be triggered just below Icing Bug + 12 Kt."
@@FlywithMagnar ohhh I see so they regard the MSIS as icing bug + 10kt. That 2kt margin give allowance and assurance that increase speed alert will trigger. All in all the speed allowance given by MPC APM is is around 20-22kts from the real icing bug. The info is from a note in PRO.NNO.ABN.30.5 Degraded Perf and Increase Speed "In case of APM messages "DEGRADED PERF" or "INCREASE SPEED" VminOPS automatically increase by 10kt"
No. When you get "DEGRADED PERF" or "INCREASE SPEED" cautions, minimum speed is increased with 10 knots. On the 600, it's done automatically for you. On EFIS variants, you have to physically move the red bug to +10 kt.
What the pilot should do IF somehow a the protection mechanisms fail and a lot of ice acumulate and the pilot notice significamt reduction on speed ans manuverability ?
Thank you very much, Excellent information, I am new on the plane and I am already doing troubleshooting on several systems, I realize now that plenty people around the plane do not really understand how the system works so the info I received was confuse, thanks to you I know now how to continue my troubleshooting and look like you already show me the issue. Thanks for your crystal clear explanation.
The procedures for setting Level 2 & 3 is quite different from what it says in the ECL. I can't remember exactly what the ECL is telling since its not on the QRH, just correct me if I'm wrong. The procedures states that when you are out of icing condition, you can turn off level 2 & 3 and keep ICING AOA until visually cleared of ice. However on the ECL "if there is still ice found on airframe", level 2 & 3 must remain ON even when outside icing condition. Another ECL procedure says "at first visual indication of ice", you must turn ON level 2 & 3 regardless if you are in icing conditions or not. The ECL is simply telling if there is ice on airframe, level 2 & 3 must remain ON regardless of conditions and temperature.
The procedures in the video are from the QRH (Quick Reference Handbook). The QRH has priority over the ECL (Electronic Check List). There are several discrepancies between QRH and ECL. There's even an OEB (#48) stating that ECL versions 24 and 25 and older versions must not be used.
Hi Magnar, I did have detector triggered in Africa on ground during taxi and after landing on ATR 42 300, and ATR 72 201 and 202 in the past with tropical rain conditions. One question for you linked to Side Windows fault / MEL and QRH. With a Side Windows fault in flight, QRH says to set Side Windows Off. One reset might be considered if thought essential but let's assume it's an electrical failure in the RH system. Now, there's only one switch so if it's OFF, both side windows are not working. For next dispatch, MEL says, 1 Side Window needs to work. As far as I could see the MEL, No Maintenance action is stipulated. Breakers are not meant to be pulled either.... How do you understand this?
Hi. Thanks for your feedback. Regarding the side window heating elements, they are controlled by a single pushbutton. I have not been able to discuss this with an engineer, but every item in a checklist is there for a reason. I assume that it might (even when the risk is one in a million) be unsafe to keep the pushbutton ON when a failure is detected. After landing, maintenance action is required. If they cannot repair the failure, they will isolate the failed heating element and release the aircraft for service in accordance with MEL (Minimum Equipment List).
I have a Doubt Sir, why the static heating is not monitored in flight when all level one equipments are heated and monitored. Whats the reason for inhibiting the monitoring of only static ports.
The static ports are flush with the fuselage and cannot be clogged by ice in flight. Therefore, if a static probe heating fails in flight, it will not affect the safety of the flight. However, the crew will be alerted after landing.
Great video. Thanks, captain. Just a question, please: why the leading edge of the vertical stabiliser does not have boots (the Saab 340 or the Dash 8, for example, have)? Thank you ;)
It is not required as it doesn't affect the controllability of the aircraft. Do you know that the Boeing 737 doesn't have ice protection on the horizontal stabilizer?
Very good video Magnar, In the 500 engine power reduced apprx by 2% with de-ice on. In the 600 I can´t notice that reduction in trq. Are the engines on the 600 rated to counteract that? I can´t find it in the books... all best
Hi Marcus. There shouldn't be any difference between the 500 and the 600. They have the same engines and the same de-icing system. Personally, I haven't noticed any reduction in torque when the de-icing system is selected on. In comparison, the air condition system takes away about 5 % torque with normal air flow. The de-icing system requires a tiny fraction of that.
@@FlywithMagnar Thanks for the quick reply. As you say, the engines are the same and I haven’t flown the 500 for a while so I probably remember it wrong. Glad to be able to stop wondering about that now anyway.
@Fly with Magnar Hello Captain Magnar. Thank you so much for this free education on ATR systems. On torque reduction when DE-ICING system is selected ON, I've also noticed a slight reduction just like Marcus is saying. My understanding is that hot air that's blown to the de-icing boots is drawn from the engines hence the reduction in torque. Please do take note next time you select DE-ICERS so we all discuss it here. Thanks in advance Maestro!!!!
That's a great question! The manuals doesn't describe what flaps uncoupling is. We know what pitch uncoupling is. We also know that each wing has an inboard and an outboard flaps. They are connected with what FCOM describes as a "failsafe design". I assume that flaps uncoupling is a condition where this "failsafe design" is broken and that there's no alert (unlock, jam or asymmetry). However, I have no idea how this can be detected from the cockpit. Perhaps a rolling tendency?
This video is even more relevant now after the ATR accident in Brazil
Thank you for your videos. I'm only an entusiast of aviation and I love ATRs, but learning this questions and so very well explained is wonderful. Greetings from Spain!
Excellent job
You have simplified my life
As i am new Captain in this aircraft
Thank you for your kind words!
Wow, you make understanding about this typical system very easy. Thankyou magnar❤️
Great video. For the Voepass crash, it seems like the pilots received all three APM warnings and did nothing. Hard to believe.
I had experienced ICING alert on the ground during a drizzle even with temperatures above 25C. It is quite annoying especially when you're about to takeoff as we always get undue alert of "CHECK TO SPD" and it ruins the takeoff data.
But the most dangerous experience I had with this problem is during flight in a light rain with OAT around 21C because it was already in a final approach for landing. We were maintaining Vapp that time then ICING alert came on and off intermittently. With ICING message the stall threshold increases, and with the current Vapp speed in normal condition it is way below the Vmin OPS for icing. The speed is just right above the solid red line on the airspeed ind. I'm a bit worried because we might get a shaker and pusher during approach at a lower altitude
I have never heard about this problem in flight. However, an icing alert does not increase Vmin OPS. The stall threshold is only increased when the ICING AOA light is illuminated. (FCOM.DSC.31.14)
@@FlywithMagnar i'm not really sure how it happened that way but I noticed the fluctuation of my Vmin OPS during the intermittent icing alert. I was PF that time, my Captain also called out for speed check as it goes down below Vref. I added around 15kts more to my Vapp to have ample room just in case
This is the third time I saw this video but everytime I learn something new.
I got Icing amber light during taxi in rain in ATR 72-500 in temperature well above icing conditions.
Another wonderful video Magnar. Thank you!
I actually land an atr72600 in sever ocong condintions in monclova and we cant take off 3 days until sun melt everything. That was a very difficult land but, I forget to mention my going around before land and the invertion on ground temperature.
Nice Sessions by you Sir
What's the reason why side windows are heated partially? Can the engineers attach a heated film in between just like the windshields where the whole glass is heated?
Hi, I had to do some research to answer this question. According to the information I have received, the reason is that the heated area provides forward visibility in case the windscreen heating has failed. Secondly, DC electrical power cannot be used to heat a film. Hence the thin wires, similar the rear window of a car. Third, it's also a question about cost. If the regulation doesn't require it, you don't have to install it. Every part of an aircraft is insanely expensive.
@@FlywithMagnar Thank you for all the effort looking for the answer captain! I greatly appreciate it! Those are just curious things I observed in ATR it is also nice to know the reasons behind it. It might also be the same engineering logic behind why ATR spoilers don't deploy upon touchdown, maybe its not that very efficient to slow down the plane because it is too small
watching after the sad atr accident here in Brazil 💔
Algum brasuka aqui tentando entender os sistemas de degelo que talvez possa ser uma das causas do acidente hoje 09/08/2024?
Sim , talvez foi mal funcionamento do anti-ice e de-ice
@@filipefelicio2364 Keep in mind that no aircraft is certified to operate in severe icing conditions regardless of fully working anti-ice and de-icing systems. Sorry about the english, hopefully you understand.
Here after the terrible acidente happened today in Brazil.
All people trying understand accident.
You gave me excellent info about the ATR-500 as I try to figure out the tragedy in Brazil.
Thoroughly enjoy all of your videos Magnar! Contrary to a lot of providers of aviation related content out there, you always make it very interesting AND informative!!
Good. We’ll wait for new video!
The ICING alert has been a source of great frustration for me as it doesnt take much rain to trigger it on the ground.
My worst case was when an ICING alert triggered right at the moment of initiating Take-off before the power levers reached the notch and T/O inhibit. This resulting in a very low speed abort.
There used to be a loose company policy to recalculate for an icing takeoff if you get an icing alert on the ground but now i see we can just wait for the 60sec and continue with normal conditions.
Respect for your videos, so nice and understanding a big Bravo Mr Magnar every time I want to review a system I just have to see your videos you have simplified my life,
i am new Captain in this aircraft Thank you so much
Glad to help!
Great video👌 very well explained and easy to understand. Looking forward for more atr-videos from you
Thanks a lot 😊
how do you remove "prot level"? If you don't have a yoke at hand and fly only with AP you can't use vertical speed to descent and you are stuck with ice at the same flight level at TOD. Very interesting situation. (in FS2020)
Set a lower altitude, select VS mode, and use the pitch wheel to set requried rate of descent.
@@FlywithMagnar not working, must be a bug I think. Thx for the reply :)
I was watching the ATR72-500 accident in Brazil where icing conditions are mentioned in the media as a possible cause of the flat spin resulting in the crash. From this video I understand that de-icing is actually something you need to take care off to do it properly. The ATR is certified to fly under icing conditions, if the media suggestion is right then someone may have made an error on the controls described here, still it doesn’t explain the flat spin I saw.
FINAL REPORT IG-136/CENIPA/2013 (PP-PTU_26JUL2013_ing_IG.pdf) - Report of serious incident in similar situation in Northeast of Brazil in 2013, pilots turn on anti-ice and de-icing devices - but not the boots for wings and engine nacelles; when the autopilot turn off the PIC fight against the stick pusher, the PM feathered the propellers - aircraft manual instruct set in 100%. Plane fall for ~5000 feet's, but the control was regained and the aircraft safety landing in the destination.
Hello captain is there any difference between Minimum Severe Icing Speed (MSIS) and Icing Bug? I was reading the new ATR-600 FCOM and stumbled upon some info in DSC.30.8.2.1. (CONTROLS) it says "INCREASE SPEED caution is generated when the aircraft speed is lower than Minimum Severe Icing Speed (MSIS) +2kt." However in DSC.30.8.4.3 (SYSTEM MONITORING) "INCREASE SPEED Alert, In level flight: Drag abnormally high and IAS below ICING BUG +10kt -or- In climb: Drag abnormally high and loss of rate of climb and IAS below ICING BUG +10kt"
I'm a bit confused about these two speeds (MSIS and ICING BUG). Where can we find the values for MSIS if ever?
Thank you for noticing this. I have sent an email to ATR and asked for clarification.
MSIS is icing bug +10. Here is the answer from ATR:
"ATR confirms that the INCREASE SPEED caution is intended to be triggered when the degraded perf alert is triggered and IAS below Icing Bug + 10 kt. This is in coherence with DSC.30.8.4.3.
Because the IAS used by the APM is an average of the last 10 second and the increase speed alert is usually triggered in altitude hold mode where the consequence of the performance degradation is on the cruise speed, a 2 kt margin have been added to the Icing bug +10 to ensure the alert will be displayed at ICING BUG +10 at least.
In case of climb, because the speed is constant, the INCREASE SPEED will be triggered just below Icing Bug + 12 Kt."
@@FlywithMagnar ohhh I see so they regard the MSIS as icing bug + 10kt. That 2kt margin give allowance and assurance that increase speed alert will trigger. All in all the speed allowance given by MPC APM is is around 20-22kts from the real icing bug. The info is from a note in PRO.NNO.ABN.30.5 Degraded Perf and Increase Speed "In case of APM messages "DEGRADED PERF" or "INCREASE SPEED" VminOPS automatically increase by 10kt"
No. When you get "DEGRADED PERF" or "INCREASE SPEED" cautions, minimum speed is increased with 10 knots. On the 600, it's done automatically for you. On EFIS variants, you have to physically move the red bug to +10 kt.
Its amazing to see your videos sir. The true sense of a teacher to impart the knowledge selflessly. Kudos, sir.
What the pilot should do IF somehow a the protection mechanisms fail and a lot of ice acumulate and the pilot notice significamt reduction on speed ans manuverability ?
get out of the ice situation immediately, reduce altitude? would that be it?
Thank you very much,
Excellent information, I am new on the plane and I am already doing troubleshooting on several systems, I realize now that plenty people around the plane do not really understand how the system works so the info I received was confuse, thanks to you I know now how to continue my troubleshooting and look like you already show me the issue. Thanks for your crystal clear explanation.
You are too good sir...Thanks indeed, for your wonderful videos, for the benefit of entire ATR fraternity🤗👮🧑✈️🪂
Unfortunately another serious accident yesterday in Brazil to add to your list.
Very, very nice video. Well done!
Great !
Hello pls i would like a other explanation again a out this system , if you do not mind.... tks
The procedures for setting Level 2 & 3 is quite different from what it says in the ECL. I can't remember exactly what the ECL is telling since its not on the QRH, just correct me if I'm wrong. The procedures states that when you are out of icing condition, you can turn off level 2 & 3 and keep ICING AOA until visually cleared of ice. However on the ECL "if there is still ice found on airframe", level 2 & 3 must remain ON even when outside icing condition. Another ECL procedure says "at first visual indication of ice", you must turn ON level 2 & 3 regardless if you are in icing conditions or not. The ECL is simply telling if there is ice on airframe, level 2 & 3 must remain ON regardless of conditions and temperature.
The procedures in the video are from the QRH (Quick Reference Handbook). The QRH has priority over the ECL (Electronic Check List). There are several discrepancies between QRH and ECL. There's even an OEB (#48) stating that ECL versions 24 and 25 and older versions must not be used.
Hi Magnar, I did have detector triggered in Africa on ground during taxi and after landing on ATR 42 300, and ATR 72 201 and 202 in the past with tropical rain conditions.
One question for you linked to Side Windows fault / MEL and QRH.
With a Side Windows fault in flight, QRH says to set Side Windows Off.
One reset might be considered if thought essential but let's assume it's an electrical failure in the RH system.
Now, there's only one switch so if it's OFF, both side windows are not working.
For next dispatch, MEL says, 1 Side Window needs to work. As far as I could see the MEL, No Maintenance action is stipulated. Breakers are not meant to be pulled either....
How do you understand this?
Hi. Thanks for your feedback. Regarding the side window heating elements, they are controlled by a single pushbutton. I have not been able to discuss this with an engineer, but every item in a checklist is there for a reason. I assume that it might (even when the risk is one in a million) be unsafe to keep the pushbutton ON when a failure is detected. After landing, maintenance action is required. If they cannot repair the failure, they will isolate the failed heating element and release the aircraft for service in accordance with MEL (Minimum Equipment List).
Great class again. Thank you for your production and share.
Thanks cool video very useful information
I have a Doubt Sir, why the static heating is not monitored in flight when all level one equipments are heated and monitored. Whats the reason for inhibiting the monitoring of only static ports.
The static ports are flush with the fuselage and cannot be clogged by ice in flight. Therefore, if a static probe heating fails in flight, it will not affect the safety of the flight. However, the crew will be alerted after landing.
Great video, Captain Magnar.
Very interesting presentation. Thank you.
Great videos, very informative!!
Great video. Thanks, captain. Just a question, please: why the leading edge of the vertical stabiliser does not have boots (the Saab 340 or the Dash 8, for example, have)? Thank you ;)
It is not required as it doesn't affect the controllability of the aircraft. Do you know that the Boeing 737 doesn't have ice protection on the horizontal stabilizer?
Got it. Didn't know about B737. Thanks for sharing your knowledge, @FlywithMagnar. All the best ;)
You are doing great job Capt 🙏
Good work capt.
Very good video Magnar, In the 500 engine power reduced apprx by 2% with de-ice on. In the 600 I can´t notice that reduction in trq. Are the engines on the 600 rated to counteract that? I can´t find it in the books... all best
Hi Marcus. There shouldn't be any difference between the 500 and the 600. They have the same engines and the same de-icing system. Personally, I haven't noticed any reduction in torque when the de-icing system is selected on. In comparison, the air condition system takes away about 5 % torque with normal air flow. The de-icing system requires a tiny fraction of that.
@@FlywithMagnar Thanks for the quick reply. As you say, the engines are the same and I haven’t flown the 500 for a while so I probably remember it wrong. Glad to be able to stop wondering about that now anyway.
@Fly with Magnar Hello Captain Magnar. Thank you so much for this free education on ATR systems.
On torque reduction when DE-ICING system is selected ON, I've also noticed a slight reduction just like Marcus is saying. My understanding is that hot air that's blown to the de-icing boots is drawn from the engines hence the reduction in torque. Please do take note next time you select DE-ICERS so we all discuss it here.
Thanks in advance Maestro!!!!
Great presentation Captain
mantap
Amazing
Sweet
Good one Cap!
Great job
Question
How to détecte flaps uncoupled ?
That's a great question! The manuals doesn't describe what flaps uncoupling is. We know what pitch uncoupling is. We also know that each wing has an inboard and an outboard flaps. They are connected with what FCOM describes as a "failsafe design". I assume that flaps uncoupling is a condition where this "failsafe design" is broken and that there's no alert (unlock, jam or asymmetry). However, I have no idea how this can be detected from the cockpit. Perhaps a rolling tendency?
Thanks