Which Is Fastest? | When & Why You Should Ride Out Of The Saddle
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 มิ.ย. 2024
- When should you ride in the saddle and when should you ride out of it? For a lot of us, it’s based on feeling, but there’s actually science to it that could make you ride faster and more efficiently. Si delves into the research and tests out the theory against Ollie on the new Wahoo KICKR MOVE to see the impact of seated vs standing riding on power, heart rate and perceived exertion.
In association with @wahoofitness 👉 gcn.eu/WahooFitness
00:00 Intro
01:06 Wahoo KICKR MOVE
01:48 Seated vs standing comparison
02:28 Peak power
04:34 Climbing
06:43 When does standing become more efficient?
08:31 Impact of pedalling technique
09:17 Si vs Ollie experiment
10:38 Si - in the saddle
11:16 Si - out of the saddle
13:24 Ollie - in the saddle
14:34 Ollie - out of the saddle
16:02 Discussing the results
17:48 Conclusions
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Do you prefer to climb in or out of the saddle? 🏔🚴 Let us know in the comments below! 👇
Depends pretty significantly on the angle of a hill i am about to go up or if i need to accelerate faster
I try to stay in the saddle because my legs hurt far more the day after a cycle if ive spent too long out of the saddle
Edit: I will add that there is actually a point at which all i can do is sit down and thats in my final 2 gears as standing vs sitting is more effort for 0 speed change at least with my bike
In the saddle. Spin, spin, spin!!!
Out of the saddle unless it's like really long climb.
In the saddle. Can only stand for short bursts. I also wonder if some have to get out the saddle on steep climbs only because they haven't got low enough gears. I find spinning, sat, much less fatiguing in the long run.
In the saddle until about 400 watts. That's about as hard as I can comfortably spin with smooth pedaling for a minute while seated. Anything over that and it's time to stand. The one thing I can't stand, though, is when someone on a ride prairie dogs, popping up and down every fifteen seconds like a game of whack-a-mole on bikes.
I'm a London Cycle Courier and probably nearly double the age of you fellas. The reason I mention that (the ancient old git thing), is because preserving your knees is a good idea. I only ride out of the saddle when negotiating a tricky manoeuvre at very low speed or sometimes cornering at very high speed. Like in Trial riding on a motorbike you have far more control when standing on the footpegs (pedals in a bicycle's case obviously), some may disagree....feel free to do so. As I first mentioned the pressure and strain on your knees is immense and you do lose energy so I never stand when ascending a hill and certainly not when riding away from a standstill at lights (yes I do stop for red lights at major junctions, that's why I'm here to write this😊). Ride safely and on the way home from work if you spot me, please don't ride like billy-ho to get past me.. particularly on the inside....massive no no! Then slow down and get in my way...... really annoying, I'm normally still working and have probably cycled 40/50 miles already. Peace, love the channel fellas 😊👍.
Another thing not mentioned in this video is that I feel getting out of the saddle improves blood flow to my junk. It also helps to stretch out a bit. So often when there is a temporary increase in gradient I use it as an excuse to get out of the saddle instead of down shifting.
That's true. On a long climb its definitely good to stretch the legs with a different position for a while!
@@gcnand blood flow to your 'junk'...
Get rid of the junk. It just makes the bike heavier for no reason
@@irfuel Ha!
@@billeterk 🤣
I find I just naturally get out of the saddle without thinking about it on steeper climbs, short punchy climbs, when I'm struggling a bit (feeling my age :D), and from standing starts. How long I can maintain being out of the saddle is the restricting factor!
I ride aka Marco Pantani - out of the saddle on the drops rather than on the hoods as most Pros ride - this produces a far smaller frontal area than when you are IN the saddle since you are crouching done towards the handlebars - so you not ONLY get the power boost but a LOWER drag area - basically what Pantani did was use a SPRINTERS form to climb - his results - sans EPO - are proof it works - IF I was a sprinter I would always climb aka Pantani as you use the EXACT same muscle group and also when IN the saddle - so you are strengthening your climbing - sprinting and flat riding - when you are on the hoods - you are using a DIFFERENT muscle group - so you do NOT get the same benefits - in short - when you climb - do it on the drops - it takes some balance to get used to it and you need super strong core to hold it but it works - I find it MORE efficient as well - GCN should compare in the saddle vs out of the saddle on the hoods vs out of the saddle on the drops power numbers PLUS AERODYNAMIC drag for ALL three - you will see Pantani had it right and not sure WHY more Pro climbers do not use that style
From my own experience, I support Ollie in this. However, it is not a matter of just the difference, you must acquire the ability of riding in a standing position for a longer period of time by exercise, in order for your lumbar muscles to get used to the effort. The big psychological advantage is that a cyclist trained this way, may have the confidence that when things get tough on a climb they still have this weapon in their personal arsenal, compared to bikers who fear standing for an extended period of time. Conclusion: you need to manage both methods.
It is definitely is a necessary tool in my opinion as well.
Who is Ollie the brown hair or blonde?
What helped my hill climbing tremendously was core strength training, a stronger back felt like I was transferring power to the pedals better.
The second thing that helped was shedding 5kg inadvertently (flu!) - lost a bit of power initially having been laid up. But soon I was flying!
Core training is the way to go 🙌
Can you make a video of Si improving his “Out of saddle“ riding? That would be interesting. I think many people struggle with it.
This! I also think a ton of average cyclists (like myself) don’t live it a mountain town and therefore don’t really work on either in or out of the saddle intentionally.
!!! Same here..
Yea I can't really do it, when sprinting or zipping up a hill I do technically get out off the saddle but only by 1cm (half an inch ish)
I am surprised that cadence was not discussed. Ollie looked to be averaging around 60 rpm, out of the saddle, while Simon more like 70 rpm. I find riding out of the saddle more difficult at higher rpm, so maybe Si needs to drop onto a smaller cog at the back and try again.
True. Simon looked uncomfortable standing, like he was trying to replicate his sitting position while standing up. Also, when riding out of the saddle efficiently, typically the bike rocks back and forth laterally. This is impossible on a trainer.
Depends on the trainer
I suspect this is the big reason for the drop off in Simons performance. He is naturally a higher cadence cyclist, it probably suits his muscle fiber mix better. As well as matching cadence standing up, I'd like to see them do the same test again but all sitting down but at 60rpm and 90rpm. I suspect Ollie will again be reasonably comfortable at both, but Simon will struggle at 60rpm. The lower the cadence the more max strength becomes a major contributor. Be interesting to see what both of them can squat as a one rep max.
When standing, it appears Si tends to hold his core (hips and above) quite steady with regard to the pedal movement. If you put an imaginary saddle forward and up from the actual, I bet he would remain perfectly perched in it. When Ollie stands, his entire body becomes more fluid from the shoulders down. His core moves more up and down with the pedal strokes which appears to spread the movement of joints over more of the body and use gravity to push on the downward strokes. Or am I imagining this?
I think you're right, Si kinda sits on air where Ollie straightens out into a standing position which is more what I think of as standing up on a bike.
I wonder how much of it is due to their height difference. Si just seems more awkward when standing
I did a tour a few weeks ago where I had a one-hour climb that had a gradient between 12% and 18%.
I felt like I had to change position every 200m just to have a slightly different muscular load.
I couldn't have done the climb without a break just sitting down or just „out of the saddle“.
You should try with a bigger cog or a smaller chainring
Yeh on those long climbs you need to change it around!
Dude! You are a machine! Well done!
I remember Emma Pooley, a former GCN presenter, who rides out of the saddle and gets amazing results. She did (still does?) hold the record for Everesting, if I'm not mistaken.
Emma is a amazing rider. Her everesting record has now been broken by Illi Gardner 🤯 Manon went KOM hunting with Illi a while back 👉th-cam.com/video/_zOjrf_YmJY/w-d-xo.html
I'm 63 and just getting to a place where I consider myself reasonably fit on the bike. I'm primarily a Zone 2, low power rider (rarely hitting 500 watts) and I don't get out of the saddle much. When I do it's nearly always to broach a sharp, steep climb that won't take longer than 20 seconds or so or when I want to power back from a loss of cadence but don't want to downshift. On a long climb, I can't imagine standing for more than a brief period of "relief," perhaps a couple dozen pedal strokes. On my ride today, I might try spending more time standing than I'm used to, just to see how my mind and body respond.
This completely follows the training approach that I adopted since last year. I sucked at riding out of the saddle and climbing. Thanks to my power meter, Wahoo Kickr, Zwift, Strava, and GCN videos, I have incorporated time out of the saddle into my climbing routine. I do it for relief during extended climbs, but it is my go-to when working up 7-8% grades or steeper. (Virtual Ventoux in Zwift does require 10% grade sitting on my end.)
I live less than dozen blocks from the start of an 18-mile hillclimb of 4,100 feet. My training has allowed me to do this climb over a dozen times this summer.
Great to hear that you are now training specifically for out of the saddle efforts! Do think having an indoor set up has allowed you to do this safer? Well done on conquering the local climb, it sounds epic! 🙌
I love to ride out of the saddle. 2 years ago at age 70 I thought it would be interesting to try something new to my cycling life. Today I make it a point to ride out of the saddle at least 20% of every ride. Do I go faster? Nope. But the advantages in improving strength for my quads, core, hands, fingers, wrist, fore arms and triceps compared to just sitting is significant. So then when I sit it's easier to pedal. It also helps to have a bike like Trek's Emonda whose geometry is conducive to standing. It's amazing how much easier it is for me to ride out of the saddle then two years ago. Toss out the stats and just try something new it will make your body stronger all around improving you're fitness. Now I don't even think about whether I should stand it just comes naturally.
I ride fixed/single speed. Simple formula. If it’s over six per cent I am aways out of the saddle. I recently completed Dover to Durness on a single speed 48/22 gearing. Borrowed my sons S works tarmac for a ride on my return it confirmed just how easy the other sixteen participants in my supported tour must have found it.
You guys are great & keep up the great work! I'm in the camp of staying seated on climbs and have trouble staying out of the saddle for long periods. It's nice to see how different everyone's riding style. I'm definitely going to try and train myself to be better seeing that it is possible. Like Si, this old dog will have to learn a new trick!
That's the joy of cycling! Everyone has their own style 😎 Let us know how you get on with training out of the saddle.
Great Science Si video! Love this information & the studies quoted! Super helpful!
When I was training for my Everesting, I would make sure to practice riding out of the saddle so that I could give my bum a break as well as work different muscle groups. On the day of my Everest, I would ride 2-3 laps of a 50 minute climb seated, then do a full lap out of the saddle. The whole experience made me very good at climbing both in and out of the saddle and I was able to hold higher power numbers for longer durations as a result on both climbs and flat roads.
When I was in better shape I used to stand for sometimes 2 or 3 miles at a time. I found it beneficial to have both power and endurance out of the saddle. Took some work to build up. Nowadays I have little endurance out of the saddle. I'm finding it harder to call on it when it gets difficult and I actually need it. I gas out really quickly whereas before it didn't feel much different. Something worth working on I think.
I’m with Si. Standing feels uncomfortable and just unnatural for me. Interesting video and I’m not that surprised that Si’s hunch that some people are less effective out of the saddle than others. However, I’m even older than Si, so not sure how much I can retrain myself to be more effective!
Broke my saddle once. Rode 50km home out of the saddle. Muscles were still sore a week after that ride.
I use it in various situations: just to change a position for a while, in steep sections and when I have no legs and when sprinting. But when climbing I prefer staying seated. When getting out of the saddle I usually shift 1-2 cogs down (not in steep sections). I even practice it and upper body strenght is important. Planks are good for this and I do an easier version of pullups, that helps as well. I remember years ago Chris Horner (won Vuelta 2013) he was climbing out of the saddle a lot, I mean a lot lot - I would not bet on him being clean then. He was flying. My "record" in riding out of the saddle is from Alpe d'Huez. I did it with absolutely no legs (Marmotte Alpes 2018) and I think that at least half of the climb I was out of the saddle. Still managed to finish on 213. place. Did anybody else do Marmotte Alpes?
These types of videos are great. More please.
I like to stand outside but indoors it feels awkward and I tend just sit.
Nice experiment and look at power, heart rate and effort guys! For my regular exercise ride, it's much simpler. My ride takes me under some high power transmission lines which can be at around 155,00 to 750,000 volts. I'm occasionally reminded to get out of the saddle while passing under them by some needle-like stings of static electricity where my bottom meets the saddle.
I do think you can train out of the saddle riding. I've been experimenting with this lately and have found that making a conscious effort to not let my ankles flex has shown improvement. As well as just more time spent up and out.
You're never to old to learn new tricks - mind over matter!!
Keep up the great work!
Absolutely! For some more climbing wisdom, check out 'How to climb like a pro' on GCN+ 👉 gcn.eu/Climbing
For me I actually tend to ride out of saddle for more power especially on take offs. When at any point I want to conserve energy, I'll use the saddle and focus my energy into my calfs while still maintaining a fast pace especially after reaching top speed on straight ways with little or no gradient.
Sounds like you've got your position dialed!
I’ve been practising/training riding out of the saddle for the past 4-5 years. I started doing this when I realised that I stood up more when I was getting fatigued. Its very trainable even at low intensities. All my mates know that I will ride the pub to pub segment on one local climbs in the Peak District. I can do this easily now even though it used to be hard. I can even do the whole climb if I want, approx 13 mins.
Yes Simon. I enjoyed the episode 😊
Really interesting episode guys 👍
Myself, I ride on feel. Absolutely love honking out the saddle, nothing like it, uphill, downhill, sprint 👍😁
Can't beat a good honking! 🪿
@@gcn You know it 👍😜😁
I rode out of the saddle quite a bit when younger, but some of that was due to only having a 42/24 as my lowest gear. Now I have a compact crankset and a “monster” cassette on the back (36t). I stay seated a lot more, but have also done much longer climbs. I do need to get back to standing a bit more.
I'm 63, 6'4" and when I'm riding somewhere between 180 to 190 lbs. I've been riding off and on since I was about 30. Historically out of the saddle always seemed to be limited to seconds before I blew up. Nine months ago I started riding on Zwift and I've found that I've gotten much better at longer intervals out of the saddle. On climbs where the gradient goes over 10% is where I find that out of the saddle, even for long periods works for me. I find that those efforts tend to work at low cadence in the vicinity of my FTP and out of the saddle reduces the strain on my knees too.
Great to hear that Zwift has improved your riding! Riding out the saddle can be a tricky skill to master, do you think that riding indoors has given you a safe space to try things out?
@@gcn Not a safe space. After a long absence from riding I've found myself riding in New England. Where I live I can only think of one flat ride, and if I don't drive to a parking lot it's not flat. The road up to my house is about 11-12% in the last 100m and there are several short climbs before that so being tired at the end of a ride sitting on the back of the saddle and pushing wasn't working, that's really where I started getting up. Then I started doing it on Zwift when the pitch was over 10%, which lead to me doing it more on the roads esp on shorter climbs where I knew I could get to the top and recover. The key for me is keeping an eye on power, shift to one or two higher gears that I'd use sitting and let the cadence drop while keeping the power from redlining.
I've always been a Mountain Biker who uses a road bike to train, (though I spend way more time on the road bike) and climbing on MTBs if for me a sit and grind affair so you don't lose traction. Standing is for keeping the power up using low cadence single track. Remember I'm 85kgs plus or minus in shorts, with shoes and a camelback more like 90, I climb because I like it the accomplishment, not because I'll ever be good at it.
Edit: A couple of other thoughts from someone who's transformed to a lot more out of the saddle and in the past found it not useful ..As noted by a number of other respondents, getting more of your weight on your pedals and off of the bars helps a lot, don't waste energy holding yourself up with your arms, and just like floating above the saddle in single track on a MTB this means lowering the cadence. I think that was one of my problems in the past was trying to maintain a cadence in the 80s to 90 on a climb out of the saddle sent me into the red every time. I've recently heard Chris Horner talk about his climbing and he said his cadence out of the saddle was like 75ish (or less) this from a ~60-65kg pro climber, so slowing the cadence might really be a thing. It is what has made the difference for me. Drop it down one or two cogs don't be afraid of a cadence in the 60s. Stay there for 10 or 20 turns and sit back down(and shift). Work up to longer pulls out of the saddle. I've gotten a couple of PRs this summer that way on some of my local climbs. (also how I get up the Alpe in Zwift)
Riding seated has always been my preference as “out of the saddle” was uncomfortable for me and my “training” focus has always been for long Alpine climbs on our summer holiday. However recently (4 months ago) I started sitting on a “Swiss Ball” for 20 mins a day to strengthen core and solve some back issues. Well the transformation in climbing out of the saddle has been remarkable. In such a short time I’m now comfortable climbing both in and out of the saddle and even prefer the latter on our local hills (The Chilterns) and even Strava PBs are happening at the age of 63. Swiss Ball has been an easy win for me all round!
On my indoor bike, I try to ride 25 full pedal strokes out of the saddle every 5 minutes. It makes the ride more comfortable. Now I've added that to my road cycling and find it much more comfortable. I rode a 63+ mile ride yesterday and a 69 mile ride like that a week ago and felt great. And at age 69- but only for a couple more months 🚴
In my experience, as someone who prefers climbing out of saddle; My HR might be higher than sitting, but my RPE is actually lower for a given power, and maintainable power output is drastically higher. I did a Zwift group ride on the Four Horsemen route (100% trainer gradient of course), and spent at least 2/3 of the time out of saddle...enough that my palms were bruised.
I have considered tracking two different FTPs even; the standard one, and one for out of saddle for KOM training.
out off the saddle, you need to find the exact balance point where you are NOT putting any extra pressure on your legs/quads but rather on your hip and buttock muscles. That way, your "falling" body mass gives you extra power and climbing becomes much easier. Th difficult part is to maintain that exact position over a longer period of time :-)
Unless it’s super steep and sketchy. Then it’s the balance point where the front stays down and the back wheel doesn’t spin out!
Depends on gradient and how long the hill is for me. Prefer standing but seated on really long climbs. It all depends which one you train in. I have a higher ftp out of the saddle than in.
If you a stronger than you are fit, get out of the saddle.
If you are heavy you get more power on the pedal out of the saddle,weight/leverage unless you have really strong legs then you can generate power seated.
Pedalling efficiency comes into as well.
I think this deserves a deeper dive. Ollie‘s technique looks completely different and maybe it also has something to do if you have long legs or rise more out of certain muscles what you prefer. I can‘t ride out of the saddle for more than a sprint, it‘s just all over the place. Maybe trained from 30 years of MTB where you are more likely to loose grip out of the saddle.
You should check out 'How to climb like a pro' on GCN+ 👉 gcn.eu/Climbing
I prefer out of the saddle. Have trained myself to climb out of the saddle for long periods of time and I can put more power out.
how long could you last in minutes out of the saddle?
It’s definitely a great training strategy. I worked up to riding an hour out of the saddle which really helped build power and endurance. I shifted back and forth between the hoods and drops which helped work up to the hour. The inspiration was the GCN video with Alberto Contador. Just do it like he does!
Very interesting!
I am exactly the same as Simon and actually, no matter what if my legs are fatiqued or I have low energy or climb is very steep (more than 12%) it is still more comfortable for me to climb in the saddle and I am completely trash in riding out of the saddle :D. The only exceptions when I am riding out of the saddle are some 30 second efforts just to stretch my legs and increase blood flow into the lower body parts or if I am doing some high segment efforts in the end of the segments just to maximize my power output for a little moment :D Main reason why I don´t actually ride that much out of the saddle is that that my quads are fatiqued really fast during the riding out of the saddle....
@@irfuel same here
I'm with Si...in the saddle, staying calm and controlled. I only get out during super steep bits or to give me backside a break.
In my experience. Someone who likes to spin a cadence consistently and ride depending on the aerobic fitness , doesn’t like to be out of saddle.
Someone who likes to ride based on the muscular strength of the legs prefers to ride out of the saddle.
It depends on what you’re used to.
I’ve always been told, “Seated power is king.” I used to ride a lot out of the saddle on climbs. I started practicing riding more in the saddle on climbs, and I’ve discovered that I’m now stronger riding in the saddle on climbs and go faster. I’ll only ride out to get a little rest in that position and get a boost for a few seconds. Then I sit back down again.
How about on really steep climbs? Do you find that climbing out of the saddle easier over 10%?
@@gcn Sometimes, yes! My threshold of seated climbing tends to be somewhere around 16-18% and above. Anything under that I try to stay seated the majority of the time. 😀
I almost always ride climbs seated. For me it always been about rhythm. I find seated that I can settle into a tempo and then slowly increase it throughout the climb. I kind of adopted this from a previous GCN video, I think Ollie, that talked about the benefits of not over doing it at the start of the climb. I started doing that and found that I was getting passed at the based of a climb, I now am catching and passing fellow riders mid way up. For me its easier to managed things seated. But I am going to try standing on some climbs that I routinely climb in about 5 mins to see if I can improve standing.
Hey! That’s my commute!! When were you guys out in Ventura?
Standing allows me to use whatever it takes to turn the pedal like upper body strength, body weight, leveraging the handlebars and alternating fatigued muscle groups.
By the way have I missed a video of Ollie’s transformation from amateur to elite cyclist?
Standing does allow you to use the full body. Do you find this is only really an issue on steeper climbs? 🏔
@@gcn When sitting cadence drops below 70 and hands starting to pull the bars then it’s time to activate upper body strength
I definitely prefer to ride seated. when I was about eighteen or so, I came to the conclusion that when you're out of the saddle you use your body weight to help push the pedals, but at the bottom of the stroke you're fighting your own body weight (surge -surge -surge -surge -surge, etc), so when you're seated the power output is more even across the pedal stroke because the bike is supporting your weight so your muscles don't have to, so from then on I just never rode out of the saddle again.
it makes sense though that if you train out of the saddle, you can train yourself to carry that momentum around the entire stroke flattening the waveform. in terms of racing clearly you'd have to be strategic, know how long you can do it for, and how long it takes to recover afterwards, as well as be able to guess the ability of your opponent in order to take advantage of when they do it
I tend to do all of my climbs seated when indoors on Rouvy because my QR skewer always seems to come loose and then the rear of the bike starts shifting. Have tried 3 QRs and even tried wrapping a little bit of duct tape around the lever.
You guys should do a video about the Shimano crank recall
It’s also worth discussing and testing which muscles you’re primarily and secondarily using while seated and standing. When you’re standing for intervals at a time during a climb, you’re swapping towards a more quad dominant push motion instead of a more efficient peddle, that might allow your glutes and hamstring a break, which they in turn can give your quads, when you’re seated again.
TLDR: The benefit might not be in either/or, but in utilising both for maximum watt output during a climb.
Maybe I've been riding bikes too long but watching this video had me saying to myself: well that's just obvious!!! Still enjoyed it though! Always do😊
Rode London to Brighton for the first time (longest distance ever ridden).. didn't do any hill training but managed to get up Ditchling's Hill without stopping thanks to zapping in a few gel packs beforehand and getting out the saddle most of the climb.. invaluable friendly advice from a work colleague who suggested drinking only electrolytes - his mantra to me, water was a waste and cramp was the enemy (thanks Ross!) [Rider #1678 - Novice]
gel packs lol...
I think I’m reasonably fit at just a b cat on Zwift. For me out of the saddle is for short sharp hills where I’m trying to maintain my pace by increasing my power. Anything long I have to sit down
Was that an Ali G reference from Si? Science and techmology... RESPECT!
From a bio mechanical prospective the difference between Oli and Si is markable. Oli has so much more core stability than Si, Oli is straighter in the upright position where as Si is all legs and no trunk control. This has so much more to do with their individual preference for riding in and out of the saddle. On the reverse in sitting Si has less upper body sway compared to Oli who’s shoulders are moving all the time. Basically play to your own strengths and not what a random research paper normalises you should do, end of the day we are all individuals cyclists with individual strengths and weaknesses. Just enjoy the ride!😊
I'm like Si, I just can't ride out of the saddle. It's uncomfortable and exhausting.
It helps when your FTP is around 5W/kg. Then power generated by your body weight does not send you immediately over the threshold.
I like to ride at a highish cadence so on steep climbs I run out of gears. Following a comment Conner made in an earlier GCN video about practising riding out of the saddle I've been doing that for the last 6 months. I've seen a huge improvement over that period. Now when I run out of gears I know I can get out of the saddle for a decent stretch. (I'm working on the low cadence stuff to though 😊)
Get a bigger cassette or a smaller chainring. That should solve your problem easier.
@@musclelessfitness2045it's not always so simple for everyone
Sounds like you've got it sorted! For more climbing wisdom, check out 'How to climb like a pro' on GCN+ 👉 gcn.eu/Climbing
@@musclelessfitness2045 that would slow me down I'd rather train to be fitter 😊
@@DavidMackenzie You just have to spin to win :)
It's hard to ride out the saddle when you're tired.
Loving Ollie dancing on the pedals.
Do you think sitting verse standing is recruiting different muscle fibres. In that fast twitch fibres are used to generate the higher power and slow twitch fibres generate the lower power.
Fast twitch fibres would produce more lactic acid which is going to limit the time in the standing position. Thoughts ?
Once your body adjust and your technique improves, riding out of the saddle feels very natural, in my case i always try to imrpoves my technique while i ride with slower rider, i always go out of the saddle and focus on my pedaling and body position, so when i go long distances i no longer think about it
As a relatively heavy (100kg) recreational rider with an FTP in the 250's, give or take, I wish these analyses took into account weight and FTP as well. I can attest that riding off the saddle is a strong no for me. These 'slight' inefficiencies Si talks about (which are mostly related to partially carrying my own weight) dominate off-the-saddle riding in my case. Minimal off-the-saddle power, again due to my weight, is north of 500W which is not sustainable for long and if I wanted to put that type of power, I can easily do it sitting down, just not for long but longer than if I did it standing up. I am just amazed seeing Ollie riding up and putting out under 300W!
On the other hand, I constantly observe light cyclists having to get off the saddle in uphills because once the legs are putting too much force on the pedals, the body is pushed up anyway, and the only way to remain sitting down is to use the handlebars to get leverage, which is tiring on the arms. So they might as well stand up and do it that way.
So if you are light, with a relatively decent power-to-weight FPT and good technique, stand-up pedaling may be okay, but for folks lime me, this is just not worth the effort.
Need to see the cadence number as well and out of the saddle is more like running…..is there any correlation with how they run ?
Please provide citations for the research you quote-would like to read it for myself.
Think standing vs sitting is dependent on limb proportions... seems people with long femurs relative to their lower leg prefer sitting and short femurs prefer standing (this is also the optimum configuration for squatting and Olympic weight lifting). Also, I think relative hamstring strength is a big factor (which might also be correlated back to limb proportions). The more your hamstrings are developed relative to the quads the more you will benefit from the back pull on the bottom of your stroke. Conversely quad dominate people with weak hamstrings might enjoy standing more. I grew up in the hill country of Austin with many short hills (0.5-0.75mi) that are above 10% grade so I got used to jamming up them out of the saddle. This resulted in me being quad dominant and being good at short punchy efforts (sub 3min). I was a good sprinter but I think always standing hurt the development of my seated power which hurt TT efforts and long climbing etc. I always thought this was mostly genetic but after coming back from Belgium where I spent months riding flat roads for hours in zone three I felt much stronger in seated and longer efforts and rode the best TT I had ridden despite not being well trained for it. Retrospectively I would have tried to stay seated more, ride out to more even terrain, and lift weights to address muscular imbalances between my quads and hamstrings. Thanks for the video
I like to ride a larger gear out of the saddle on shorter, steeper sections to take some of the work off my quads and use my hamstrings (and body weight) better. The change up feels like giving my legs a quick break.
I think Andrew Feather might be a person to look at for this type of thing as he seems to do both in/out of saddle! Personally I climb in the saddle and sprint out of the saddle .
feather is totally out the saddle!!
Isn’t it also a question of how tall a rider is? Many shorter riders I like prefer standing efforts, whereas taller riders prefer seated efforts.
Standing technique should have been discussed more. In terms of cadence, there is a sweet spot. If the cadence is too high, your legs will feel like they are falling when you are pedaling. When the cadence is too low with high torque you will only be able to last out of the saddle for a short time. You want a cadence that is slow enough to give your leg muscles time to recover on the upstroke but not so slow that it's not sustainable.
Clear explanation. It is key that it is a skill reliant on "feel", honed with practice, of course. Numbers and data are therefore of little to no use.
Its a question of body weigt vs power. When I sit I press only as much as my muscles can. If going out of the saddle my weight on the pedals would accelerate me beyond my capabilities. So I must execute power backwards to slow me down. This makes me inefficient. Climbing at 200W out of the saddle gives me same heartrate over time as 250W seated, even at lower cadence and muscles start to burn quickly.
Note: Since I lost 10kg from 90 down to 80 I can ride out of saddle about 10 times as long as before. This allows me to get out shortly on long climbs to relax my back and shift load to different muscles for 20-30 seconds. So yes, I began training out of saddle more thsn I used to.
I ride on incredibly flat terrain in Florida. As Si showed, more power is produced while standing so, if I want to maintain a faster pace, I stand to get up the rare overpass. Fortunately, that's usually less than a minute. No way I could last much longer than that as age takes hold! All that said, I find most of my standing is to get back up to cruising speed after having to stop. After only about ten seconds and at cruising speed, I have to sit down as I can't maintain the RPM's like I can while in the saddle.
One thing that wasn't mentioned, while trying to avoid the aerodynamics discussion, aerodynamics don't play as large a role at slower speeds such as climbing or starting after a stop.
Periodically riding out of the saddle for as little as ten seconds at a time relives pressure on your sit bones. This is especially important riding on a stationary trainer.
Just want to put out the that the aero effect of being out of the saddle during sprinting is less than you mention because sprinters put their hands in the drops while sprinting, not the tops of the handlebars, and this reduces the aero impact of being out of the saddle. I also think there is an effect of rider weight as well. At 6’4” and 200 lbs, I think it’s likely that I’m better off being seated more.
like everything, there are cases and cases. I never ride out of the saddle --get tired more easily. Learnt from a very knowledgeable person not to ride out of the saddle, nor moving your torso from left to right (for this you must have a strong core), it is more efficient to keep straight when seated.
Personally love riding out of the saddle - on zwift I ride the whole of AdZ out of the saddle - maybe because I come from a running background. Agree with comments about cadence - tough my normal cadence (which is about 95-100 when in the saddle) when out....I normally grind climbs between 65-70....but I am so much better at those climbs when out
That's a long time out of the saddle!
I don't really have a preference. I mix it up, though I'm in the saddle around 80% of the time on climbs. As a youth, it was more 50/50, but racing bikes typically had a 42x21 low gear then, and there was no choice.
Im pretty new to road cycling. But I find riding out the saddle up hills not putting in a lot of power gives my legs a break as I can put more of my weight into the pedal stroke. Is this a thing others find helpful?
@gcn I find a significant power difference when I stand up, which makes it somewhat awkward having to shift to harder gears to get out of the saddle, then back to easier gears again when I sit back down. Any recommendations on how to keep a steady cadence and maintain efficiency when switching between in/out of the saddle?
I think you'd find our climbing masterclass on GCN+ informative! Check out 'How to climb like a pro' 👉 gcn.eu/Climbing
I'm practicing riding out of the saddle but each time I worry about one little thing going wrong such as a single chain link breaking or a brief slip of the chain and then down I would go.
In or out ? Endless subject ! I imagine the weight of the rider should have an influence. Lighter=more out - Heavier= more in. It's maybe not the case for Oly/Si (they should avec a similar weight) but I don't see an heavy rider climbing out the saddle . Al I right ? (I'l heavy, I'm in the saddle ...)
Both of you could practice the correct bike lean while riding the trainer out of the saddle. Without conscious effort, the trainer will collapse toward the downstroke foot (the opposite of what happens outside). Most trainers don't really lean much, so probably not much of the power/efficiency gain in the form of the mechanical advantage that bike lean lean away from downstroke gives. But especially for novices, probably important to train like you do it outside if you can. Thanks. Interesting episode.
I’m not fond of riding out of the saddle, and only do it when necessary. I’ve noticed that I sometimes ride scooted forward a bit on the saddle, and slightly lifted up when pouring on the power. Sort of a compromise, a middle ground between fully seated and fully out of the saddle. Maybe I’m just lazy.
Out the saddle in climbing! ⛰️🚵♂️
I stand if I've made a mistake with gear selection and on very long climbs when my body needs a change.
Its good to shift around a bit on the longer climbs!
Definitely in the saddle, out... my heart rate goes up up up!
How does crank length affect the numbers
I only wish I had a power meter to analyze the difference. I don't do well out of the saddle and rpe is all I have to go on. So, I don't even know if I'm unconsciously putting out more power when out of the saddle.
I usually ride in the saddle and get out of it when my butt or lower back gets soar or when I face a short steep climb or a ridiculously steep part of a normal climb. Like there is no room for science when you see a 20% wall in front of you😅 You just get out of the saddle and hope to not die somewhere on that climb
Si your cadence was much higher when you were standing. Curious if you slowed the cadence down if that would lower your effort 15:30
For another "GCN does Science" video, one question that would help someone that naturally sweats more than other people, would be the following:
Is there a point of equilibrium between heat produced while cycling and forced convection?
Let's assume no wind and norm climate (20°C and, i think, 65% relative humidity).
I assume that there is either a point where those two values overlap (equal amount of produced heat and heat transported away by convection) or atleast a minimum for the difference between them.
This, in theory, should be the point where you sweat the least because you don't get such a heat build-up that the body tries to get rid of by sweating and there for would be the ideal speed at which you want to e.g. ride to the trainstation...
And yes Ollie, with your academic background, i know you had the math to solve this, if there is a good way to estimate the produced heat while cycling...
Second thing Si it appears to me that people who are better runners tend to climb out of saddle better ..... OK from seeing Ollie running at cyclocross, shows that all rules can be broken 😂
What of body and arm position while standing? Ollie seems more upright.
Gotta love how Si is saying bad weather is keeping him in for this, but in his video about cargo bikes he said weather was never an issue. 🤔
Haha, until you’ve filmed in the rain you don’t know the meaning of suffering!
Without being a specialist in anything important here: it looks for me as if Si kind of pedals standing up as he does sitting down, he just shifts his weight from the saddle to the arms, the rest of the body stays super tense maintaining position. Ollie on the other hand puts his weight to work and kind of jumps from left to right. Looks less stiff and way less weight on the arms
First off Si its well saying there is no energy disadvantage in riding out of saddle on slow climbs (16km/hr?) as aero loss are minor ... what you forgot to say if there is no headwind! So 16km/hr head wind would make any speed require more energy unless you were behind Conner 😂
i wonder if limb length or length proportions of femur vs tibia make a difference to how easy it feels for different people
On the road, I only get out of the saddle when I need some soft tissue relief or a climb is so steep I just can't push it sitting down. Standing is hugely inefficient for me.
I usually get out of the saddle for short punchy climbs but seated for longer climbs only to get out to get over a pitch or to work other muscles. Most of all I just avoid climbing.
I thought the Wahoo Kickr Move needed an extra attachment to work with the Climb?