I just followed these instructions to the letter (and the second!), and produced the most beautifully developed film ever in five years of endeavour. Thank you so much for this.
I love the way people who shoot film love to share their knowledge and practises with each other without trying to out nerd the other person as you see in digital forums.
3:55 I didn’t understand why you didn’t meter for the shadows to the left of the fence. You took the highlight reading on the fence and adjusted it to Zone 8 and set the camera to that… 🤔 I have learned so much from your videos!
I wanted to place the subject (white fence) in zone 8. Thus was an example of using the zone system to 'place' an area where you want it instead of expose for the shadows, develop for the highlights.
@@PictorialPlanet And it still came out great! 👍 Do you have any videos that go into how you print these negatives? I have a roll of Pan F+ in my camera and these videos of you using that film are how I discovered your channel. Thank you so much for all the great info!
@@PictorialPlanet That makes sense. If you take care to properly expose and develop the negative, I am sure they are much easier to print! Thanks again.
Great video and nice to see PanF shine! I gave up using PanF some time ago as I found the contrast too high. But using semi stand development with pyrocat hd gave superb results - so I might just revisit PanF armed with a new technique!
I live in Florida and this film is awesome!! I rarely make prints larger than 11x 14 so I get marvelous images! I want high contrast and long tonal range.
This is a great advert for Pan F in Pyro. I've been using rollfilm Pan F in PMK for over 20 years, it's my choice if the light is good, and I know that the results will be spectacular.
Really helpful video John. I've just ordered up some 120 roll Pan F and 510 Pyro when I came across his video. Was typing the question "will it work as well?" and then you answered it! lol! Subscribed - great stuff!
These are the best photography videos on TH-cam. I'm an experienced amateur but it is so refreshing to have a real expert teaching me new things. Thanks.
May I ask one question please ? Can Pan F be left in a refrigerator for several months AFTER exposure , or must it be developed within a few days or a few weeks after exposure ?? Many thanks. This is a great program. RS. Canada
It's always best to process your films as soon as possible. This is especially true of PANF Plus as the latent image does deteriorate more quickly than other Ilford films. Process this film within a few weeks of exposure.
Thanks John for the enlightening video! I'm going to start using the 510 Pyrocat. I think the big challenge here in the tropics is to keep the temperature stable throughout the process. Thank you for sharing all this information. Greetings from your followers in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.
Greeting to Brazil! I lived in Florida for many years. Here's a couple of ideas for you. I used ice to keep my water baths down to 20C or figured new times for 24C which was easier to maintain.
Es ud- un genio del cuarto oscuro, me encantan sus viseos lo bien explicado todo al detalle, pero claro soy de ESPAÑA y me encanta el cuarto oscuro pero no encuentro el revelador PYRO aqui en mi pais suelo revelar con D-76, rodinal y kodak hc 110 y me gustaria probar esa pelicula y ese gran revelador PYRO donde lo podria comprar gracias y un saludo desde BARCELONA ESPAÑA.
@@PictorialPlanet Yes. It's probably over-cautious, but I like having highlights on the negative be a little less dense than Ansel taught. So my N is other people's N-1. But I think it's a good way to get nearly grain-free prints. There's probably loss of midtone separation but D76 1:3 probably maybe helps with that. I try not to worry about that nerd stuff too much, just want the print to be beautiful.
This is an excellent video. Good production, great audio, well paced, and fantastic content. I don't normally develop my own film (poor facilities, no scanner at this location), but just the demonstration of how you used the zone system was very instructive. Thanks.
Hi John, tried this technique this morning on some 120 Pan-F+ and I have to say that the negatives look a bit thin, even by pyro-stained film standards. I've used staining developers on several different film stocks for many years, so I know the general look. That said, the proof will be in the printing, of course. Thanks for sharing this technique.
Hi John, love your channel! Great informative resource. I was thinking what would happen if instead of exposing for the highlights you exposed the shadows 1 or 2 stops higher. With this type of semi stand development, would you still have information in the highlights? I'm thinking about it specifically so I can scan the negative later.
Thank you for this. All the steps so precisely spelled out with impressive end results. Now what I have on hand at the moment is Wimberly’s w2d2+ pyro/metol and am wondering how that particular version dilutes to fit into the workflow demonstrated in the video. You mention 2-2-500 and 2-2-250 dilutions for other pyro products. In any case your precision when developing is a wake-up call for me to clean up my own act when developing. It is easy to become lazy.
Hi Mike. Your w2d2+ is a lovely developer. Similar in many ways to PMK but with a carbonate accelerator. I've always liked it. I'm afraid that I don't think you could emulate this development with that developer, it's quite different. Pyrocat HD is easy to make if you'd like to try this very high quality development. I have a video on how to make it and also talk about it in my book.
Wow! Gorgeous result is a testament to your technique and is motivating me to try Pyro. I remain hesitant to bring that into my household without a dedicated space. Thank you for producing this.
I've shot PanF once in 35 and once in 120 and I botched it both times. It should by all accounts be one of my favorites. I guess it's time for another go.
@@PictorialPlanet Well Pyrocat HD obviously. 🤣 I did just buy Perceptol and Xtol to experiment with pushing and pulling FP4, HP5 and Bergger Pancro. Please keep posting videos. You are one of the few film channels that know what they're talking about.
Share your formula. Is it the same chemicals etc. Point a novice like me on the right path. The method shown although giving a brilliant result did seem like alot of work for one film.
Thank you John for another hugely informative video. It is a joy to watch your meticulous technique result in such a fine end result. I have learned a great deal from watching your previous videos and now from studying your excellent book that I received as a gift at Christmas. I eagerly await your next instalment. Stephen
Thank you, John, for all your videos. I've been using Pan F for many years and have had great results developing it in PMK. I have a roll of 120 in my Kowa at the moment and was intending to develop it in Pyrocat HD, which I've been using the last two years. I'll look forward to the next video in the series.
Hi Barry and happy to meet another PANF user. Yes, it's lovely in PMK! I have used that combination a lot back before Pyrocat. I'm sure you'll like using it. In 120 PAN F and Pyrocat is amazing. Are you going to use EMA like this video or regular development?
@@PictorialPlanet Hi John, I've never used EMA before, although I followed Steve Sherman's posts on LFP forum with interest several years ago. But I'm always keen to learn anything that will improve my processing and eagerly await your next installment. Thankyou again.
Wow you have really blessed me with the full developing detailed model. It makes it so much more achievable for me to see the whole process narrated all the way through from exposure consideration to hanging the film. Thank you. Question: to move the exposure to zone 8 or a full 3+ stops, to get those stunning whites, you went from a light meter reading of f4 at 1/250th (mid gray) to f4 at 1/60th is that right? By the way you inspired me to immediately load a 35mm roll in my Minolta XG-M 50mm f1.7 and throw my shutter cable release in the bag straight away with my tripod.... thank you, thank you, thank you... PS I even chucked in my macro 1:4 70mm 3.5 lens in the bag too... now the only choice is people, architecture or landscapes... fun!
Glad you like the demonstration. Let me answer your question. I did lift the exposure 3 stops. The initial meter reading was 1/500 F4 and I ended with 1/60 f4, three stops.(500-250-125-60). Love that you have grabbed your Minolta and 50mm lens! Get shooting my friend. Fun!!
Sorry John, I posted a question on the wrong video, so I will ask the same question again if you don't mind but here. Can you use this same development method using FP4.
You can but I'd add some 5 minutes to the total time. I'll be doing a video on FP4 later this spring covering a similar theme where I'll specify a more exact time.
Another super-useful video, John. Thank you, thank you, thank you for making these. One things, and please don't hate me for that :), but I do prefer the hybrid workflow of capturing on film and editing after scanning the negative. If you have it in you, please consider making a video or two about the best combinations of film and developer with the aim of getting great scans. I'm still researching the best combination for this while using 4x5 or 6x7/6x9. I'm currently trying HP5+ with PMK (your suggestion) and I like the result but I'm not getting the sharpness that I would like and too much grain. I understand that 400 ISO is grainy (I rate it at 200) but I use 4x5 exactly to have more flexibility there. I need 400 to keep portraiture at times where humans can stay still (1/30, 1/15) With your knowledge of the process, a series about hybrid workflow would be fantastic. And if you have done it already, just point me to the right direction. Thank you!
Hello John, many thanks for a cracking video. Its great to see the whole process from start to finish in your video, and not juts highlighted extracts. I assume that the timings for Pyro HD and PAN F+ would not change for either 35mm or 120 development?
Great video. I have a question regarding your metering for the shot. You took a reflective light metering of the white post in sunlight, and then adjusted your final exposure from Zone V to Zone VIII... a difference of three stops. My question is how is that you arrived at the post being in Zone VIII? Is that because of how white the post was? Would this at all change if it were an overcast day (and not a sunny one)? Also, if one were to take an incident light reading, how would this change the resulting exposure? Thanks in advance.
Great question, Dustin! In the zone system, something white with good detail, like the white gate, is zone 8 just as shadows with good detail, such as under a thick tree for instance, are zone 3. I 'set' the white post as white with good detail by measuring the light reflecting from it (meters always show zone 5) and opening up 3 stops to make it zone 8. It's useful to know these zones because then you can 'place' your subject in the right zone. Remember here that the gate was my subject so I wasn't really interested in where shadows might end up. Another example of this 'placement' would be portrait shots. A white subject's skin is zone 6 so if I measure a caucasian face and opened up one stop I'd be placing the skin in the right zone, zone 6. Black subject's skin can be placed in zone 4 successfully using the same technique but obviously closing down one stop after measurement. These skin zones are good estimates for portraits that have worked well for me in the past. Overcast day? I'd do the same, place the white gate in zone 8 because it's still white with good detail so I need it there for good printing. OR I could place the shadows in zone 3 and use development time to make sure the gate is increased, lifted as it were, to zone 8. See my recent video series on FX55 for how to do that.
Thanks for another interesting video. Really enjoying the channel and currently waiting for your book to arrive! Apologies if this is a basic question, but I'm new to the Zone system and pyro developers. I noticed you exposed for the highlights by putting the fence in zone 8 and the contrast in the scene happened to turn out perfectly in development. I keep reading that it's best to do it the other way round i.e. measure the shadows, put them where they should be (eg Z3) and then develop for the contrast by bringing the highlights up or down. Is there a reason why you did it that way? I note you will be looking at the zone system next week!
Hi Alvin. Thanks for your comment. You are quite right about normal exposure of black and white film (as you may know it's the opposite for slide film). I use this tactic (placing my highlights where I want them) when the highlight _is_ the photograph such as in this example of the white fence. In this case the shadows did fall at zone 2 to 3 which I felt would work well with the scene I imagined. I printed the photograph at grade 3 to darken the shadows a tad, and to add to my imagined aesthetic quality of the image. I'm glad you asked this question. I shall address this next week when I talk more about zone development. Thanks again, Alvin!
Hi John, I'm not a Pyro user, but I would like to see a comparison of Pyro against Perceptol 1+3 in 35mm Pan F+. For me Delta 100 or 100 TMAX has been good enough, but high lights/shadow details could always improve I suppose. I should try your Pyrocat method with Perceptol or D76 at high dilutions with less frequent agitation. Any thoughts on that ? Thanks again for your interest in improving the photographic image. 📸
Hi Peter! Thanks for your comment. I used Perceptol a lot and liked it at 1+3 but never did any stand development with it or try it at greater dilution. If I wanted stand development I'd use Rodinal (I know, not quite the same!) Then along came these modern Pyro formulas like Pyrocat and 510-Pyro and stand development took on a whole new meaning. You can purchase them now, ready made, in the U.K., Europe, and the USA. Recommended and definitely an improvement over Perceptol even with normal development.
Excellent presentation as always John. Quick question - do you find this timing of EMA with Pyrocat for Pan F+ produces an improved negative over the EMA timing recommended for Pan F+ in your book? (longer pre-rinse, longer intervals between shorter agitations, ~50% longer overall dev time). I am going to give Pyrocat EMA a try so I am looking for the best baseline to start from, and the shorter development time here is certainly attractive! Thanks.
I've done this kind of reduced or minimal agitation with Parodinal 1:50 or 1:100 (homebrewed Rodinal clone made from paracetamol) and seen the same general result: an increase in film speed compared to what you'd get with lower dilution and normal agitation, as well as exceptional acutance and compensation. It's excellent for making Fomapan 400 closer to a true 400 speed film; I haven't tried it on Pan F (I've got a roll in 120 on my shelf, but have never shot this stock) but it should have the same effects. Looking forward to following videos on this subject.
@@PictorialPlanet Good likelihood of it, though that's fairly far down my list at present. Right now, I've got a roll of ortho Verichrome in a tank waiting for me to figure out whether to use HC-110 at about 15 C or mix up D-23 with some benzotriazole and run that at 10-12 C (for a long, long time) to have the best chance of saving whatever images are on this (expired no later than about 1954) found roll. I've also got a bulk roll of ORWO DN21 -- a cine duplicating film at ISO 12. It's a lot like Pan F only more so. So far, I've only processed it in Xtol replenished -- I've been keeping things simple since getting my darkroom back up -- but I'm likely to try it soon in something like Parodinal or Caffenol to see what it does without any grain reduction.
Great video, and I do love PanF. So many misunderstandings about this film, and you simply ignore the noise and bring us a clear approach to getting the best out of it. BTW, percolation would be the correct term if you were using Caffenol!
Here in England I have sourced Pyrocat HD from NTPhotoworks, I am however struggling to find the Photographer's Formulary TF-4/TF-5 on these shores...... any suggestions from UK photographers? It has been suggested I use Bellini FX100 yet not sure if I can just use the water rinse as opposed to a stop bath with that prior?
Great question, TDG. Check out my website for making your own alkaline fix. Also, you can always use a water stop, whatever fix you use. It's independent of fixing and is about stopping development. It can be used with any developer too so doesn't have to be for staining/tanning developers. Also on my website you'll see suppliers for the chemicals to make your own fixer. Enjoy!
I took a spot meter reading which is reflected light. That's why I bent down to spot meter the exact part I wanted read. To take an incident reading I would turn towards where the camera would be and incident meter along that line. I wouldn't need to bend down but just point the incident meter from fence to camera.
D76 is ok although not if this quality as it doesn't have the sharpness, nowhere near. At 1+3 it sharpens up but compresses the mid tones. The two developers I show with PANF (Pyrocat and FX15) really match this film well. If you try them you'll see what a I mean.
No, I misstated that bit. But I'm sure, as you watched, you then hear me then say that I rinse the film of fix and then go into the full Ilford wash technique of five rinses etc. I don't read a script 🙃
@@PictorialPlanet but why do you do that extra rinse step before doing the Ilford washing technique? That was what I was trying to ask, sorry for the confusion.
Over the last 50 years I've worked out how to optimise my negatives and prints. My technique includes all these learnings. I hope to help others make fail safe beautiful negatives, every time. So, in my videos I share all these experiences, hoping someone will find them useful. If I've found an extra rinse to be useful then I hope others might too.
Yes, 500ml of developer , stop and fix (in the video I have slightly less stop and fix because I'm doing a 35mm film). Dilute the developer exactly the same.
Yes. Good control of the contrast that can run away with some developers. Another good developer for this film is Thornton's 2-bath metol developer. Fine grained, sharp, good contrast control. Then there's Rodinal too. I use 1+100, 11 minutes.
@@PictorialPlanet Thanks. My D-23 has developed three rolls. I'm waiting on my sodium metaborate, and I look forward to trying FP4+ in the replenished version, maybe Pan F if I find I need smaller grain. I'm intriqued by your comment about Pan F being somewhat equivalent in 35mm to medium format. I imagine a good lens and scanning protocol is also important. I plan to scan with a macro lens on my DSLR. I've also worked with medium format and 4x5, but at present I'm interested in maximum quality from 35mm, which is easier to carry in a small camera like my Nikon FM.
When I processed it, the film had a brownish hue and looked very old school. Should probably be shot at 25 ISO, just like most b&w films needing to be shot at half their stated ISO. Using pyrocat is cheating, LOL. But, the shot is very nice and maintains the brightness of the original scene.
Pyrocat is an excellent modern developer. The brownish hue is the stain that pyrocatechin negatives, low in sulphite, will give. Pyrogallol negatives have more of a green/yellow look. You shouldn't shoot modern films at half their stated iso! This is an old idea that photographers not willing to do the work of finding their personal iso used to say. Imagine doing that with FP4 in FX55 where the film developer combination gives an EI of 200? It would be way over exposed, no good at all! Much better do the work to find your iso for your film of choice to get accurate metering. I have videos on doing this easily. I like that you think Pyrocat is cheating! It is very good compared to most regular developers.
@@PictorialPlanet Yes, I understand, but my tests tell me otherwise. Granted, I'm using an old-time selenium meter that came with the camera. But, if people don't do their own film tests (using their chosen developer) , I don't think they know for sure. With in-camera metering on a 35mm camera, for me, HP-5 still comes in at 300. The comment on pyrocat was a joke - because most people won't use it. I did try a pyro formula for night work. Did a nice job, but some negs were ruined by uneven staining. As for Pan-F, the brownish hue is visible in a normal devevloper - at least to my eyes.
Thank you for that great video. Have you tried Pyrocat-MC? I wonder what times to use with this developer. I'm using it becouse it creates strong UV blocking for cyanotyping. Maybe this developer could be a subject for a another video. :) Bjoern
Hello Bjoern! As I understand it Pyrocat-MC uses very similar times to the HD variant. I think you should try using this technique and times with your MC pyrocat and let us know how you get on.
Excellent, I bought Pan F+ 120 film and will give it a try as you suggest. And wait for the film to be processed in the Zone System as you have been told. A few questions, I have a FomaPan 100 and 400 film, can I use this value? thank you very much
Thank you John for this very informative video. I have one question regarding agitation during EMA. I have used pyrocat-hd for a few years and often had problems with uneven development at the edges of my medium format films (mostly HP5+ and FP4+). I have tried all kinds of tricks but to no avail, until I happened to see your video about a year ago about the The Twizzle Stick. That solved my problem. Can I use the The Twizzle Stick in the EMA regime? Will the agitation/times change?
Dear John, thanks for such an incredible tutorial, it made me run out and buy a couple rolls of 120 Pan F+ :). Just a quick question - would this work in a Jobo 1520 tank, considering that it only takes 485 ml of chemistry? (It's one of those smaller tanks which does take 2 120 films but in one continuous roll, not in two plastic rolls like Patterson. Also, any Ilford developers I could use if I cannot get Pyrocat? Cheers!
It will work fine with a jobo 1520 tank (but not in the jobo because it needs to stand). Don't worry about the 15ml difference. You need to use pyrocat for this to work, no Ilford developer.
@@PictorialPlanet Got it! Jobo, manual process, will give it a shot. I'll also do a bit of research if any other developer gives noce results with this film, just in case I run out of or cannot get Pyrocat. Thanks! :)
Hello John, a very informative start to finish video, thank you. I've made up some 510 recently as per your latest book... You mentioned 1 to 250 for 510, is that 1ml per 250ml water? Also what fix should I use? Cheers John, looking forward to your next video.
Hi Kit. Thank you for purchasing my book! It's a great help to support the channel. About your question. Yes, 1 to 250 is 1ml to 250ml water or multiples thereof such as 2ml to 500ml (which is what I'd recommend even for a 35mm Paterson Universal tank). As for fix I always recommend an alkaline fix if you can such as TF2 or AGFA304, both shown in previous videos on the channel. There's TF3 in my book or TF4 which you can purchase online in UK and USA. If you can't get any of these you could use Ilford Hypam.
Yes it can, with excellent results but you'll have to tweak your timing to get the right contrast for your particular film. As a starting point try adding 5 minutes to the total time. If your test negatives are flat add another 5 minutes and so on. Each set of 30 second agitations are performed at the 1/3 and 2/3 points.
Thank you very much for that video that makes me optimistic to try Pan F again after a long while. At the moment i only use 510 Pyro with FP4 and HP5 and next time i want to try it with older stock of Adox CHS And Efke 25. I do not want to get confused and irritated by too much testing and trying other developers. You said it is to be developed the same way as Pyrocat. What are the advantages of Pyrocat vs. 510 Pyro for Pan F? Thanks for your efforts…
Hi SD. I did a lot of testing for this video and found 510-Pyro gave similar results but I felt that Pyrocat gave slightly more micro contrast (defined details) and Pyrocat was a touch sharper.
I'm confused. Here in Pt1, you chose to expose for the highlights by lifting 3 stops on your camera's lens yet in Pt3 you exposed for the shadows and closed down 2 stops (on your lens) - isn't the rule of thumb expose for the shadows, develop for the highlights. Respectfully, why then do you not consistently expose for your shadows (and develop for your highlights in development)?
Good question. I like to demonstrate the many ways to expose correctly for a scene. The zone system allows for many ways to place the exposure depending on what one wants to achieve in their print.
You're saying that people develop this film that their normal way and get results that are not better than their normal film, and then when they do this process it will become much better than their normal film. So why shouldn't they just use this process on every film they develop ever if it's just going to make it better
@@PictorialPlanet I get what you mean, but generally if I like cheese, I buy some and take it everywhere and eat it all with every meal (I literally did this, it was with oaxaca cheese)
Just found this video. Very interesting. I use PanF+ quite a lot in 120. I've never been keen on pyro developers and process my films in either Ilford Ilfotec HC 10+600 or my own 2Bath formula. It's a crackin' film. Thanks for describing your process.
I just followed these instructions to the letter (and the second!), and produced the most beautifully developed film ever in five years of endeavour. Thank you so much for this.
Glad it helped!
I love the way people who shoot film love to share their knowledge and practises with each other without trying to out nerd the other person as you see in digital forums.
Superb as usual, I have had a roll of Pan F in my fridge for nearly two years, this has motivated me to make the trip out and shoot it. Thanks.
A cracking start to what will, I've no doubt, be a very interesting series. Thank you so much for your thorough explanation of the whole procedure.
Thanks Stephen!
3:55 I didn’t understand why you didn’t meter for the shadows to the left of the fence. You took the highlight reading on the fence and adjusted it to Zone 8 and set the camera to that… 🤔 I have learned so much from your videos!
I wanted to place the subject (white fence) in zone 8. Thus was an example of using the zone system to 'place' an area where you want it instead of expose for the shadows, develop for the highlights.
@@PictorialPlanet And it still came out great! 👍 Do you have any videos that go into how you print these negatives? I have a roll of Pan F+ in my camera and these videos of you using that film are how I discovered your channel. Thank you so much for all the great info!
Thanks for your kind words. The negatives printed very easily. I do have a recent darkroom printing video series on TH-cam.
@@PictorialPlanet That makes sense. If you take care to properly expose and develop the negative, I am sure they are much easier to print! Thanks again.
Wow i am really blown away by how beautiful the negative is. I hope i can do the same with my 510 Pyro on medium format. So beautiful!
Thank you, C!
Great video and nice to see PanF shine!
I gave up using PanF some time ago as I found the contrast too high.
But using semi stand development with pyrocat hd gave superb results - so I might just revisit PanF armed with a new technique!
I live in Florida and this film is awesome!! I rarely make prints larger than 11x 14 so I get
marvelous images! I want high contrast and long tonal range.
Yes, PANF is a great film.
This is a great advert for Pan F in Pyro. I've been using rollfilm Pan F in PMK for over 20 years, it's my choice if the light is good, and I know that the results will be spectacular.
Glad you're using a Pan F film and pyro combination, Mark! Superb results, always.
Really helpful video John. I've just ordered up some 120 roll Pan F and 510 Pyro when I came across his video. Was typing the question "will it work as well?" and then you answered it! lol! Subscribed - great stuff!
Thanks for the comment, Saint. Yes, it does work. But check out the FX15 video after this one.
These are the best photography videos on TH-cam. I'm an experienced amateur but it is so refreshing to have a real expert teaching me new things.
Thanks.
Wow, thank you!
Incredibly well done! So informative. Thank you so much for making this video!
Thank you, TFF!
3:36 Done. DHL delivery is scheduled for tomorrow, trip to the sea planned for next week. Thx for your great content. :-D
Have a good photoshoot!
May I ask one question please ? Can Pan F be left in a refrigerator for several months AFTER exposure , or must it be developed within a few days or a few weeks after exposure ?? Many thanks. This is a great program. RS. Canada
It's always best to process your films as soon as possible. This is especially true of PANF Plus as the latent image does deteriorate more quickly than other Ilford films. Process this film within a few weeks of exposure.
Thanks John for the enlightening video! I'm going to start using the 510 Pyrocat. I think the big challenge here in the tropics is to keep the temperature stable throughout the process. Thank you for sharing all this information. Greetings from your followers in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.
Greeting to Brazil! I lived in Florida for many years. Here's a couple of ideas for you. I used ice to keep my water baths down to 20C or figured new times for 24C which was easier to maintain.
@@PictorialPlanet Thanks a lot John !! I will try this way.
You could feel the warmth of sun light from the picture! 🌤️
Wonderful tutorial John. I always learn something from your videos.
Thanks Tony! Now you're making me work harder ;)
Great video. Also, I agree that a tripod is certainly best for sharp pictures whenever it can be used. Thank you.
Cheers Richard! Yes, always have that tripod close.
Nice pic and print quality.. love the video
Thank you Steven!
Es ud- un genio del cuarto oscuro, me encantan sus viseos lo bien explicado todo al detalle, pero claro soy de ESPAÑA y me encanta el cuarto oscuro pero no encuentro el revelador PYRO aqui en mi pais suelo revelar con D-76, rodinal y kodak hc 110 y me gustaria probar esa pelicula y ese gran revelador PYRO donde lo podria comprar gracias y un saludo desde BARCELONA ESPAÑA.
My website
It is my favorite film. I strongly suggest placing the shadows on zone 3 and developing for highlights on zone 7.
Great film. I think I understand that you are saying develop N-1?
@@PictorialPlanet Yes. It's probably over-cautious, but I like having highlights on the negative be a little less dense than Ansel taught. So my N is other people's N-1. But I think it's a good way to get nearly grain-free prints. There's probably loss of midtone separation but D76 1:3 probably maybe helps with that. I try not to worry about that nerd stuff too much, just want the print to be beautiful.
Very interesting. What grade do you print at?
Thank you very much for your content! And greetings from the black forest
Greetings! You have the best gateau I have ever tasted. Thanks for joining the channel!
This is an excellent video. Good production, great audio, well paced, and fantastic content. I don't normally develop my own film (poor facilities, no scanner at this location), but just the demonstration of how you used the zone system was very instructive. Thanks.
Thank you 🙏 Lovely comment!
Hi John, tried this technique this morning on some 120 Pan-F+ and I have to say that the negatives look a bit thin, even by pyro-stained film standards. I've used staining developers on several different film stocks for many years, so I know the general look. That said, the proof will be in the printing, of course. Thanks for sharing this technique.
Interesting, let me know how they print.
Thanks for this. I found it easy follow and understand. I’m in Victoria, BC.
Hello Victoria, BC! A beautiful part of Canada 🇨🇦 I'm glad you followed the video ok. I appreciate your comment.
Hi John, love your channel! Great informative resource.
I was thinking what would happen if instead of exposing for the highlights you exposed the shadows 1 or 2 stops higher.
With this type of semi stand development, would you still have information in the highlights? I'm thinking about it specifically so I can scan the negative later.
Thank you for this. All the steps so precisely spelled out with impressive end results. Now what I have on hand at the moment is Wimberly’s w2d2+ pyro/metol and am wondering how that particular version dilutes to fit into the workflow demonstrated in the video. You mention 2-2-500 and 2-2-250 dilutions for other pyro products. In any case your precision when developing is a wake-up call for me to clean up my own act when developing. It is easy to become lazy.
Hi Mike. Your w2d2+ is a lovely developer. Similar in many ways to PMK but with a carbonate accelerator. I've always liked it. I'm afraid that I don't think you could emulate this development with that developer, it's quite different. Pyrocat HD is easy to make if you'd like to try this very high quality development. I have a video on how to make it and also talk about it in my book.
Wow! Gorgeous result is a testament to your technique and is motivating me to try Pyro. I remain hesitant to bring that into my household without a dedicated space. Thank you for producing this.
Thank you Jesse!
I've shot PanF once in 35 and once in 120 and I botched it both times. It should by all accounts be one of my favorites. I guess it's time for another go.
Definitely! What developer will you use?
@@PictorialPlanet Well Pyrocat HD obviously. 🤣 I did just buy Perceptol and Xtol to experiment with pushing and pulling FP4, HP5 and Bergger Pancro. Please keep posting videos. You are one of the few film channels that know what they're talking about.
🤣
Do a stand development or semi stand, and you don’t have to be this temperature dependent. I am stand developing Pan F Plus as we speak.
Excellent!
@@PictorialPlanet It truly is beautiful film. Shot the roll today in my Rolleicord 1A.
How did your film come out?
@@PictorialPlanet amazing. Cannot believe the sharpness, detail, and tonality.
Share your formula. Is it the same chemicals etc.
Point a novice like me on the right path. The method shown although giving a brilliant result did seem like alot of work for one film.
Thank you John for another hugely informative video. It is a joy to watch your meticulous technique result in such a fine end result. I have learned a great deal from watching your previous videos and now from studying your excellent book that I received as a gift at Christmas.
I eagerly await your next instalment.
Stephen
This is great feedback Stephen, thanks!
that is amazing it makes my heart happy
Thank you, John, for all your videos. I've been using Pan F for many years and have had great results developing it in PMK. I have a roll of 120 in my Kowa at the moment and was intending to develop it in Pyrocat HD, which I've been using the last two years. I'll look forward to the next video in the series.
Hi Barry and happy to meet another PANF user. Yes, it's lovely in PMK! I have used that combination a lot back before Pyrocat. I'm sure you'll like using it. In 120 PAN F and Pyrocat is amazing. Are you going to use EMA like this video or regular development?
@@PictorialPlanet Hi John, I've never used EMA before, although I followed Steve Sherman's posts on LFP forum with interest several years ago. But I'm always keen to learn anything that will improve my processing and eagerly await your next installment. Thankyou again.
Wow you have really blessed me with the full developing detailed model. It makes it so much more achievable for me to see the whole process narrated all the way through from exposure consideration to hanging the film. Thank you. Question: to move the exposure to zone 8 or a full 3+ stops, to get those stunning whites, you went from a light meter reading of f4 at 1/250th (mid gray) to f4 at 1/60th is that right? By the way you inspired me to immediately load a 35mm roll in my Minolta XG-M 50mm f1.7 and throw my shutter cable release in the bag straight away with my tripod.... thank you, thank you, thank you... PS I even chucked in my macro 1:4 70mm 3.5 lens in the bag too... now the only choice is people, architecture or landscapes... fun!
Glad you like the demonstration. Let me answer your question. I did lift the exposure 3 stops. The initial meter reading was 1/500 F4 and I ended with 1/60 f4, three stops.(500-250-125-60).
Love that you have grabbed your Minolta and 50mm lens! Get shooting my friend. Fun!!
Great job. Can’t wait to use the same process.
👍
Wonderful as always. Amazing film, panf. Looking forward to seeing your approach to using this combination in different lighting scenarios. Cheers!
Thanks Dav!
Hi great tutorials from a very experienced darkroom expert. Do you use unfiltered tap water ?
Sorry John, I posted a question on the wrong video, so I will ask the same question again if you don't mind but here. Can you use this same development method using FP4.
You can but I'd add some 5 minutes to the total time. I'll be doing a video on FP4 later this spring covering a similar theme where I'll specify a more exact time.
Another super-useful video, John. Thank you, thank you, thank you for making these. One things, and please don't hate me for that :), but I do prefer the hybrid workflow of capturing on film and editing after scanning the negative. If you have it in you, please consider making a video or two about the best combinations of film and developer with the aim of getting great scans. I'm still researching the best combination for this while using 4x5 or 6x7/6x9. I'm currently trying HP5+ with PMK (your suggestion) and I like the result but I'm not getting the sharpness that I would like and too much grain. I understand that 400 ISO is grainy (I rate it at 200) but I use 4x5 exactly to have more flexibility there. I need 400 to keep portraiture at times where humans can stay still (1/30, 1/15)
With your knowledge of the process, a series about hybrid workflow would be fantastic. And if you have done it already, just point me to the right direction. Thank you!
Thanks for your kind comment. I will consider your idea, might be a fun topic.
An amazing example of what you can get with your development technique. Have you ever used Diafine? BTW, I never use an acid stop bath either.
Yes, I've used Diafine. It's not a developer that provides this kind of quality though.
Hello John, many thanks for a cracking video. Its great to see the whole process from start to finish in your video, and not juts highlighted extracts. I assume that the timings for Pyro HD and PAN F+ would not change for either 35mm or 120 development?
Thank Anthony! No change for timing for either format.
Pan F plus is a great film, just ne sure to develop promptly after exposure as the latent image degrades with time.
Great video. I have a question regarding your metering for the shot. You took a reflective light metering of the white post in sunlight, and then adjusted your final exposure from Zone V to Zone VIII... a difference of three stops. My question is how is that you arrived at the post being in Zone VIII? Is that because of how white the post was? Would this at all change if it were an overcast day (and not a sunny one)? Also, if one were to take an incident light reading, how would this change the resulting exposure? Thanks in advance.
Great question, Dustin!
In the zone system, something white with good detail, like the white gate, is zone 8 just as shadows with good detail, such as under a thick tree for instance, are zone 3. I 'set' the white post as white with good detail by measuring the light reflecting from it (meters always show zone 5) and opening up 3 stops to make it zone 8. It's useful to know these zones because then you can 'place' your subject in the right zone. Remember here that the gate was my subject so I wasn't really interested in where shadows might end up.
Another example of this 'placement' would be portrait shots. A white subject's skin is zone 6 so if I measure a caucasian face and opened up one stop I'd be placing the skin in the right zone, zone 6. Black subject's skin can be placed in zone 4 successfully using the same technique but obviously closing down one stop after measurement. These skin zones are good estimates for portraits that have worked well for me in the past.
Overcast day? I'd do the same, place the white gate in zone 8 because it's still white with good detail so I need it there for good printing. OR I could place the shadows in zone 3 and use development time to make sure the gate is increased, lifted as it were, to zone 8. See my recent video series on FX55 for how to do that.
Thanks for another interesting video. Really enjoying the channel and currently waiting for your book to arrive!
Apologies if this is a basic question, but I'm new to the Zone system and pyro developers. I noticed you exposed for the highlights by putting the fence in zone 8 and the contrast in the scene happened to turn out perfectly in development. I keep reading that it's best to do it the other way round i.e. measure the shadows, put them where they should be (eg Z3) and then develop for the contrast by bringing the highlights up or down. Is there a reason why you did it that way?
I note you will be looking at the zone system next week!
Hi Alvin. Thanks for your comment. You are quite right about normal exposure of black and white film (as you may know it's the opposite for slide film). I use this tactic (placing my highlights where I want them) when the highlight _is_ the photograph such as in this example of the white fence. In this case the shadows did fall at zone 2 to 3 which I felt would work well with the scene I imagined. I printed the photograph at grade 3 to darken the shadows a tad, and to add to my imagined aesthetic quality of the image. I'm glad you asked this question. I shall address this next week when I talk more about zone development. Thanks again, Alvin!
Absolutely amazing, thank you so much.
You're welcome!
Hi John,
I'm not a Pyro user, but I would like to see a comparison of Pyro against Perceptol 1+3 in 35mm Pan F+. For me Delta 100 or 100 TMAX has been good enough, but high lights/shadow details could always improve I suppose.
I should try your Pyrocat method with Perceptol or D76 at high dilutions with less frequent agitation. Any thoughts on that ?
Thanks again for your interest in improving the photographic image. 📸
Hi Peter! Thanks for your comment. I used Perceptol a lot and liked it at 1+3 but never did any stand development with it or try it at greater dilution. If I wanted stand development I'd use Rodinal (I know, not quite the same!) Then along came these modern Pyro formulas like Pyrocat and 510-Pyro and stand development took on a whole new meaning. You can purchase them now, ready made, in the U.K., Europe, and the USA. Recommended and definitely an improvement over Perceptol even with normal development.
Thank you so much for this, it will solve many issues of course!
Excellent presentation as always John. Quick question - do you find this timing of EMA with Pyrocat for Pan F+ produces an improved negative over the EMA timing recommended for Pan F+ in your book? (longer pre-rinse, longer intervals between shorter agitations, ~50% longer overall dev time). I am going to give Pyrocat EMA a try so I am looking for the best baseline to start from, and the shorter development time here is certainly attractive! Thanks.
Try them both and pick your favourite. This one is shorter but might not compensate as much.
Great video John , I love pan f . That neg is amazing
I've done this kind of reduced or minimal agitation with Parodinal 1:50 or 1:100 (homebrewed Rodinal clone made from paracetamol) and seen the same general result: an increase in film speed compared to what you'd get with lower dilution and normal agitation, as well as exceptional acutance and compensation. It's excellent for making Fomapan 400 closer to a true 400 speed film; I haven't tried it on Pan F (I've got a roll in 120 on my shelf, but have never shot this stock) but it should have the same effects. Looking forward to following videos on this subject.
Yes, Rodinal is a classic minimal agitation developer. It's also a popular developer with Pan F. Sounds like you've got some fun in your future.
@@PictorialPlanet Good likelihood of it, though that's fairly far down my list at present.
Right now, I've got a roll of ortho Verichrome in a tank waiting for me to figure out whether to use HC-110 at about 15 C or mix up D-23 with some benzotriazole and run that at 10-12 C (for a long, long time) to have the best chance of saving whatever images are on this (expired no later than about 1954) found roll.
I've also got a bulk roll of ORWO DN21 -- a cine duplicating film at ISO 12. It's a lot like Pan F only more so. So far, I've only processed it in Xtol replenished -- I've been keeping things simple since getting my darkroom back up -- but I'm likely to try it soon in something like Parodinal or Caffenol to see what it does without any grain reduction.
Ever use rollei 25 rpx for a slow film. I like it
No, but I'd like to try it
Great video, and I do love PanF. So many misunderstandings about this film, and you simply ignore the noise and bring us a clear approach to getting the best out of it. BTW, percolation would be the correct term if you were using Caffenol!
That made me laugh, Alasdair! I love PAN F and coffee. I think I needed a cup before shooting that scene.
Beautiful stuff. Thank you.
Yes, really nice 👍
Here in England I have sourced Pyrocat HD from NTPhotoworks, I am however struggling to find the Photographer's Formulary TF-4/TF-5 on these shores...... any suggestions from UK photographers?
It has been suggested I use Bellini FX100 yet not sure if I can just use the water rinse as opposed to a stop bath with that prior?
Great question, TDG. Check out my website for making your own alkaline fix. Also, you can always use a water stop, whatever fix you use. It's independent of fixing and is about stopping development. It can be used with any developer too so doesn't have to be for staining/tanning developers. Also on my website you'll see suppliers for the chemicals to make your own fixer. Enjoy!
Great video. Did you read the reflected light or incident light? Thanks
I took a spot meter reading which is reflected light. That's why I bent down to spot meter the exact part I wanted read. To take an incident reading I would turn towards where the camera would be and incident meter along that line. I wouldn't need to bend down but just point the incident meter from fence to camera.
@@PictorialPlanet great. Thanks so much.
how would d76 at 1:3 work with this film. very curious about it and have you tested D76 on this film
D76 is ok although not if this quality as it doesn't have the sharpness, nowhere near. At 1+3 it sharpens up but compresses the mid tones. The two developers I show with PANF (Pyrocat and FX15) really match this film well. If you try them you'll see what a I mean.
As Pyrocat is not available in my country , do you think MOERSCH Pyro 48 100ml A + 200ml B is a good combination ?
I'm sorry but I don't know that Moersch developer.
Dare I ask what the fluid measurements would be for 120 film in the next sized Pattesen tank up perchance?
2+2+500, the same dilution. It's enough to cover the film and the 120 film's surface area is the same as the 35mm 36 exposure roll.
@@PictorialPlanet thank you so, so, so much.
Hello Sir, i am a follower of your channel, can you please advise how to develop pan f50 with ilford ddx developer? Thank you🙏
Sorry Mike. I don't use DDX.
@@PictorialPlanet No problem, thank you Sir🙏
Have you used this film with 510 pyro? If so, what's your thought on the combination?
Not bad but better with this or FX15.
Did Ilford say you need to rinse before using their 3 step washing method ?? I never do.
No, I misstated that bit. But I'm sure, as you watched, you then hear me then say that I rinse the film of fix and then go into the full Ilford wash technique of five rinses etc. I don't read a script 🙃
@@PictorialPlanet but why do you do that extra rinse step before doing the Ilford washing technique? That was what I was trying to ask, sorry for the confusion.
Over the last 50 years I've worked out how to optimise my negatives and prints. My technique includes all these learnings. I hope to help others make fail safe beautiful negatives, every time. So, in my videos I share all these experiences, hoping someone will find them useful. If I've found an extra rinse to be useful then I hope others might too.
Is it the same for medium format film? Quantities times etc.
Thanks.
Really beautiful colours.
Yes, 500ml of developer , stop and fix (in the video I have slightly less stop and fix because I'm doing a 35mm film). Dilute the developer exactly the same.
@@PictorialPlanetthanks , and great content.
For stops of anything over 5 minutes I do the "ilford wash" (5 + 10 +20 agitations in water), any thoughts? It seems to work for me.
Good way of stopping the film!
What do you think about using d-23 replenished for this film in 35mm?
Yes. Good control of the contrast that can run away with some developers. Another good developer for this film is Thornton's 2-bath metol developer. Fine grained, sharp, good contrast control. Then there's Rodinal too. I use 1+100, 11 minutes.
@@PictorialPlanet Thanks. My D-23 has developed three rolls. I'm waiting on my sodium metaborate, and I look forward to trying FP4+ in the replenished version, maybe Pan F if I find I need smaller grain. I'm intriqued by your comment about Pan F being somewhat equivalent in 35mm to medium format. I imagine a good lens and scanning protocol is also important. I plan to scan with a macro lens on my DSLR. I've also worked with medium format and 4x5, but at present I'm interested in maximum quality from 35mm, which is easier to carry in a small camera like my Nikon FM.
My new book, to be released very soon covers what you want to do. The Art of Black and White Photography. Keep an eye on my website for the release.
Could I use the same method on Ilford HP5 ??
I rarely use fast films so I don't remember trying. FP4 works very well though.
When I processed it, the film had a brownish hue and looked very old school. Should probably be shot at 25 ISO, just like most b&w films needing to be shot at half their stated ISO. Using pyrocat is cheating, LOL. But, the shot is very nice and maintains the brightness of the original scene.
Pyrocat is an excellent modern developer. The brownish hue is the stain that pyrocatechin negatives, low in sulphite, will give. Pyrogallol negatives have more of a green/yellow look. You shouldn't shoot modern films at half their stated iso! This is an old idea that photographers not willing to do the work of finding their personal iso used to say. Imagine doing that with FP4 in FX55 where the film developer combination gives an EI of 200? It would be way over exposed, no good at all! Much better do the work to find your iso for your film of choice to get accurate metering. I have videos on doing this easily. I like that you think Pyrocat is cheating! It is very good compared to most regular developers.
@@PictorialPlanet Yes, I understand, but my tests tell me otherwise. Granted, I'm using an old-time selenium meter that came with the camera. But, if people don't do their own film tests (using their chosen developer) , I don't think they know for sure.
With in-camera metering on a 35mm camera, for me, HP-5 still comes in at 300. The comment on pyrocat was a joke - because most people won't use it. I did try a pyro formula for night work. Did a nice job, but some negs were ruined by uneven staining. As for Pan-F, the brownish hue is visible in a normal devevloper - at least to my eyes.
Thank you for that great video. Have you tried Pyrocat-MC? I wonder what times to use with this developer. I'm using it becouse it creates strong UV blocking for cyanotyping. Maybe this developer could be a subject for a another video. :)
Bjoern
Hello Bjoern! As I understand it Pyrocat-MC uses very similar times to the HD variant. I think you should try using this technique and times with your MC pyrocat and let us know how you get on.
Excellent, I bought Pan F+ 120 film and will give it a try as you suggest. And wait for the film to be processed in the Zone System as you have been told.
A few questions, I have a FomaPan 100 and 400 film, can I use this value?
thank you very much
Thanks Nuttakit! I've not tried either Fomapan film but the system should work Howe, the time will probably be different. Give it a go!
Thank you John for this very informative video.
I have one question regarding agitation during EMA. I have used pyrocat-hd for a few years and often had problems with uneven development at the edges of my medium format films (mostly HP5+ and FP4+). I have tried all kinds of tricks but to no avail, until I happened to see your video about a year ago about the The Twizzle Stick. That solved my problem. Can I use the The Twizzle Stick in the EMA regime? Will the agitation/times change?
I think it will work fine. Let us know how you get on.
Dear John, thanks for such an incredible tutorial, it made me run out and buy a couple rolls of 120 Pan F+ :). Just a quick question - would this work in a Jobo 1520 tank, considering that it only takes 485 ml of chemistry? (It's one of those smaller tanks which does take 2 120 films but in one continuous roll, not in two plastic rolls like Patterson. Also, any Ilford developers I could use if I cannot get Pyrocat? Cheers!
It will work fine with a jobo 1520 tank (but not in the jobo because it needs to stand). Don't worry about the 15ml difference. You need to use pyrocat for this to work, no Ilford developer.
@@PictorialPlanet Got it! Jobo, manual process, will give it a shot. I'll also do a bit of research if any other developer gives noce results with this film, just in case I run out of or cannot get Pyrocat. Thanks! :)
Hello John, a very informative start to finish video, thank you. I've made up some 510 recently as per your latest book... You mentioned 1 to 250 for 510, is that 1ml per 250ml water? Also what fix should I use? Cheers John, looking forward to your next video.
Hi Kit. Thank you for purchasing my book! It's a great help to support the channel. About your question. Yes, 1 to 250 is 1ml to 250ml water or multiples thereof such as 2ml to 500ml (which is what I'd recommend even for a 35mm Paterson Universal tank). As for fix I always recommend an alkaline fix if you can such as TF2 or AGFA304, both shown in previous videos on the channel. There's TF3 in my book or TF4 which you can purchase online in UK and USA. If you can't get any of these you could use Ilford Hypam.
@@PictorialPlanet excellent, thanks for the quick reply. Thanks very much John.
Can this developer and development process be used with other films? I generally shoot with Kodak Tri-X, both 135 and 120.
Yes it can, with excellent results but you'll have to tweak your timing to get the right contrast for your particular film. As a starting point try adding 5 minutes to the total time. If your test negatives are flat add another 5 minutes and so on. Each set of 30 second agitations are performed at the 1/3 and 2/3 points.
Thank you very much for that video that makes me optimistic to try Pan F again after a long while.
At the moment i only use 510 Pyro with FP4 and HP5 and next time i want to try it with older stock of Adox CHS And Efke 25. I do not want to get confused and irritated by too much testing and trying other developers.
You said it is to be developed the same way as Pyrocat. What are the advantages of Pyrocat vs. 510 Pyro for Pan F?
Thanks for your efforts…
Hi SD. I did a lot of testing for this video and found 510-Pyro gave similar results but I felt that Pyrocat gave slightly more micro contrast (defined details) and Pyrocat was a touch sharper.
@@PictorialPlanet Ok, thank you. Than i will test it with 510 P first and if i am not satisfied i will try Pyrocat HD…
Yes, good idea, use the same times and agitation but at 1+250 dilution
@@PictorialPlanet Thanks again! Is 35mm and 120er film to be developed the same times?
Yes, same times.
I'm confused. Here in Pt1, you chose to expose for the highlights by lifting 3 stops on your camera's lens yet in Pt3 you exposed for the shadows and closed down 2 stops (on your lens) - isn't the rule of thumb expose for the shadows, develop for the highlights. Respectfully, why then do you not consistently expose for your shadows (and develop for your highlights in development)?
Good question. I like to demonstrate the many ways to expose correctly for a scene. The zone system allows for many ways to place the exposure depending on what one wants to achieve in their print.
👌
Thanks TFW
You're saying that people develop this film that their normal way and get results that are not better than their normal film, and then when they do this process it will become much better than their normal film. So why shouldn't they just use this process on every film they develop ever if it's just going to make it better
Sometimes things just go together. Like cheese and tomato or gin and tonic. Maybe that makes more sense to you?
@@PictorialPlanet I get what you mean, but generally if I like cheese, I buy some and take it everywhere and eat it all with every meal
(I literally did this, it was with oaxaca cheese)
@@PictorialPlanet well, but seriously though, should I be doing this with every film? Or will it not get any noticeable gains with most?
Just found this video. Very interesting. I use PanF+ quite a lot in 120. I've never been keen on pyro developers and process my films in either Ilford Ilfotec HC 10+600 or my own 2Bath formula. It's a crackin' film. Thanks for describing your process.
The video after this one describes PANF in FX15. Definitely a terrific match.