As somebody who loves listening during long drives I super appreciate you guys reading some of the cards out. I know most of them but there’s always the oddballs!
The Varragoth deck also uses lines post Naus to cast every piece of fast mana they have, replay them with Yawgmoth’s Will, cast a huge Exsanguinate to ensure you have more life than your opponents then do Sickening Dreams so that they can win without the land drop for the glacial chasm. With that line they can turn two. From what I saw, the guys that topped that recent event with it essentially said “as long as I can turn one Varragoth I will present a turn two win 100% of the time”
The Varragoth deck also uses a 0 mana artifact (Dark Sphere) that halves the damage you suffer in order to kill everyone but themselves with Sickening Dreams, so you can get another useful land drop.
I’d be interested in them going more into this deck. Dark sphere, songs of the damned, and every black tutor is also played in this deck. I play it and have won pretty consistently turn two.
My buddy plays Dihada in casual, and I was shocked at how much mana she generated and how quickly. Hearing she sees cEDH play and you guys discuss her now too makes me happy to hear, because man - that demon lady goes fast!
I was one of the players who played Varragoth at the tournament taking 7th this deck is always a turn 3 and can be turn 2 very consistently. I would go as far to say it’s the most consistent deck and is more consistent on a turn 2 win and somtimes a turn 1 than any other deck.
Separate comment for a separate issue: varragoth doesn't need glacial chasm, it can also sickening dreams with dark sphere cutting the damage that you take in half. That means you're not picking up your ENTIRE deck, but if you pick up enough cards with ad naus to kill your opponents while keeping your life total above half of that number (20 if an opponent is at 40,) you get there. Also, varragoth is an easy tutor in the command zone, but the deck can also just use the normal black tutors to find ad naus and ignore varragoth. It's definitely a faster deck than gitrog. finally, as a cheeky backup, varragoth targets a player to tutor, so if you have oppo you can boast to make opponents search and feed you their win conditions. that isn't fast, but it makes the deck a little less frail than it appears
As a Cormela player, you are correct in the mana required for that line, and it can seem slow. It absolutely can go fast, but she is also an excellent source of resources and recursion if the game gets grindy. I absolutely love my list it's the most fun deck I've ever played in cEDH.
As a Cormela lover (first cedh deck I tried to build,) the combo works best if you already have dark rit. If you can use a tutor to get dark ritual, it gives you the mana and you can combo off with literally 1 black. I've been able to present a win on turn 3, and with perfect mana rocks you could do it on turn 2
For inalla it does not matter if you have the pieces in hand, it just means spellseeker can go grab interaction instead of the combo piece. You DON'T want them in the graveyard because then that increases the mana required to go off and makes it so you have to extend the already notoriously long combo.
Amazing video. To Cam's point "it'd be lame if we did this off stats" I'd actually love to see that right at the end of the video. Like what do the stats say, how does that compare to what you have and why do the decks you've placed differently 'feel' faster or slower than the stats say.
Fwiw, Cormela _can_ get started from 5 mana, but you need to have dark ritual, saw in half, and demonic tutor in hand. You can loop dark ritual and saw in half to generate an extra black mana with each loop, then you can start casting demonic tutor once you've stockpiled enough mana.
If you have a brainstorm, or any cantrip, you can draw your hole deck without Demonic Tutor specifically, the combo is basically a ritual and saw in half
@@matheustymusmarszal4325 Yep. I just used demonic tutor in my example because it makes the combo the most streamlined. You don't have to draw your entire deck if you can just pick the 2-3 cards out of your deck that you need to win the game. Fewer spells and fewer interaction points. Besides, not every build of Cormela is guaranteed to run brainstorm, but idk a single build that doesn't run demonic tutor. My point was not about the specific cards, but rather that there _are_ combinations of cards with which you only need 5 mana to win with Cormela in the command zone.
As a pilot of obscure/ potentially suboptimal commanders, it's nice to see Cormella ( one of my all time favorites) get a smidge of acknowledgement in cedh discussion.🙂 Hopefully I can earn her some reputation at the 8k in Georgia next week....................and now I'm off to finish this episode XD
The new Sidisi tutor for naus deck has some other tricks worth mentioning. It doesn’t always have to get the glacial chasm. (I have only looked at the list so speculating a bit) You play a TON of zero mana creatures but there is a point to them. Once you discard them you can cast song of the damned and make a ton of mana so you can cast a big ol exanguinate or whatever that other version of exanguinate is. So you can sickening dreams enough to almost kill everyone (yourself included) then play a big x spell to finish off the table but you stay alive. You also play Zuran orb. So even w/out glacial chasm, you can win by just sacrificing a couple lands to keep a higher life total than your opponents before sickening dreams. I thought this deck was absolutely hilarious. I feel like it is a turn 3 deck but it’s not a “yeah, I’m prob gonna be able to win turn 3 (like Godo or Selvala)” but it’s more of like a “listen fuckers, you all got until my turn 3 to figure something out” full stop! 😉 I love that list a lot. I think it doesn’t often win turn 1 or 2 but it flat out will make the table dead t3 if they don’t stop it.
Also Cormella is a five mana combo if you use dark rit mana to activate your Cormella copies that you make with saw in half netting one mana each loop of saw in half and darrk rit then you can replace the dark rit in the loop with any instant/sorcery to win.
Facts. I run stax pieces in mine. And abrade flame of anor and prismari command to destroy them when im ready and it also doubles as card draw and wincon. You have no idea the confusion you cause the pod by laying a torpor orb in these colors.
@@user-jj1qj4pq6o may i suggest running resculpt for this purpose over abrade( unless you have room for both, both is good) due to the fact that it not only exiles the target( so it hits the one ring etc.) but if you do remove your own piece it gives you a body/fodder for things like culling the week and such. just some food for thought. have fun out there :)
Great episode. Have to say I was disappointed you didn’t mention Birgi. I have personally had two turn one wins with Birgi and threatened several more turn one wins. Birgi is fragile for sure, but it consistently threatens wins. I have also had several turn two and turn three wins with Birgi, and even one late game turn twelve win fighting through several stax pieces and a Rhystic Study.
Ngl, I've cast Etali on turn one more than once since assembling the deck and let me say that it is one of THE most fun commanders I've ever put together. Like, it's debut game in my local cEDH tournament was literally a T1 dinosaur that within 3 turns had eliminated one player and assembled a win condition as well as bounced back from disruption to that win con. It was HOT. Also it's very first game I hit an Ad Naus off of an opponent on turn 2 (used Treasounous Ogre to cast Etali) and even at 22 life I managed to win due to someone elses Ad Nauseum. It was glorious. In addition to all of this, it plays around and through Drannith Magistrate and Opposition Agent particularly well just because of the number of Lightning Bolts that it runs. It's only 3 in my list, but Bolt, Abrade, and Cathartic Pyre are just SO flexible most of the time. I really do love the deck, and I hope that it gets some amazing support pieces in the next few sets coming up!
Interesting note for Everybody Lives!, it says life totals can't change but does not actually stop damage from being dealt, so things like jeska/ishai or an early dargo threatening commander damage will still 'kill' you, you'll die as soon as the turn passes. Not a huge downside but important to keep in mind, especially when the card is already iffy
@@seankeane769 you can, but also you don't need to. If you play everybody lives, ad naus will not cause you to lose life, so you can pick up as much of the deck as you want and keep your life total.
Interestingly, most state-based actions that cause players to lose the game (like the ones you mention) will keep happening, so you'll lose at the beginning of the next cleanup, but drawing from an empty library does not. That one's one-shot. If you empty your library, trying to draw from it won't make you lose, and you won't instantly lose until you attempt to draw again.
Speed is both total amount of mana required but also how it curves out. I wasn't aware of the Cormela combo, but curving TX Cormella and TX+1 Cormella win is fairly good speed. Vannifar, in comparison, is TX Vannifar and TX+1 also. But importantly Vannifar is castable via Jeweled Lotus, Sol Ring and Mana Crypt (so is Cormella, but "one turn later", if that makes sense :P)
100% agree with the Godo rating against Gitrog. Back when I played a ton of Gitrog, there was always a godo in my pod, and it always felt like a coin flip to who can win first, except Godo was more consistent with it. Always had to beat him with Ouphe and other stack pieces specifically for him haha.
Guys.....I started collecting during Unfinity and first pre-con was Dihada and I aggressively fell in love with her and the amount of love yall gave her...ty 😢
@dylan on the "is mana value of the combo what determines speed" thing, i think tmv is an important factor but you also have to consider things like consistency and followthrough.
@BVBridesifyer dualcaster/twinflame combo. The opening hand plan was to cast korvold turn 1 and cast jeskas will turn 2. My draw for first turn was mana vault so that made both possible and went for it. Hit the dualcaster off Jill and had drawn the twinflame from sac mana vault to korvold etb triggers
"Everybody lives!" Has some cool interactions with the red turn spells. The najeela list that won a couple weeks ago uses it like angel's grace to not die to the "lose the game" triggers. It also functions as heroic intervention to protect opponent's stax pieces. Ill be adding it to mine. Idk how it works with ad naus though....
I have cormela deck. It works better with a sac altar, and there's 3 instances (I think) that bring it back untapped. You storm off or x spell with infinite mana. The rest of the deck is grixis goodness and cormela works as a mana dork for the most part. The haste makes her. I'm so glad you guys covered her 😂
There’s a Rocco version that tutors academy rector, all you need is naya mana, 4 colorless, and a way to kill rector and that’s combo, and many of the ways you kill rector are one mana or free (and also double as removal) I’ve never gotten the turn 1 dream hand but I’ve combo’d off turn 2 or 3 pretty consistently
The Carmella combo I think works like this. Spend 1 on Carmella to make 3 that can only be spent on instant and sorcery. Spend black to cast dark ritual leaving BBBRU. Use BRU to cast saw in half. OG Carmella dies and gets back dark ritual. 2 Carmella enters, one dies and get back saw in half. Board stat is now untapped token Carmella, dark rit and saw in half in had with BB in mana pool. Use one to repeat above netting you B in the pool. So infinite black mana and infinite storm. Then you can turn the infinite black mana for anything into infinite R and U that can only be cast on instant and sorcery. Now how you get dark ritual and saw in half in hamd is whatever. I think that is where the confusion started because if you start with demonic tutor in hand, you can end with the combo, but it just starts with more mana to begin the combo.
So, I'm curious on your guy's thoughts on kaalia. I think she's fallen out of favor for a ton of people, but I'm not entirely sure why. She can run ad naus, engine's out razaketh, do dockside loops, breach loops... Following a primer for kaalia(b.a.d kaalia), she's apparently also very resilient.
Cormela combo takes 5 mana if Cormela isn’t on the field. It takes dark ritual and saw in half. This lets you cast saw in half off of dark ritual or Cormelas mana so you get infinite mana of every color for instants or sorceries and infinite black by repeating the line and you cast one tutor or an out like brain freeze with infinite storm count
I definitely think it can have some legs, I played a list I put together the last cedh night we had and won half of my games with it so it was feeling good for me
I got a buddy of mine who owns a card shop and we stayed up there for hours trying to figure out the cormella lines ourselves and came to the exact same conclusion. That line is slow and convoluted. lol
Cormela gives you a little mana to cast your Ad Naus (through her tap or culling of the weak cast twice) + she transforms Saw in Half into basically "1: return target instant or sorcery from your graveyard to your hand', which helps with the ability to attempt the win again after it has been stopped So it's not the fastest deck, but it has a naturally fast grixis shell with the additional ability to attempt wins multiple times even on the same turn
I have the #1 Varragoth list on Tappedout for almost 3 years in a row, Just wanna post my list, even though I haven't worked on it in a while, Hope you guys think its cool. This episode has really inspired me to keep working on it, thank you!
Would that help? Preventing half the damage would still kill you, because your life total will be in the single digits and you're trying to deal ~40 to everyone.
1:28 I think that nanogene conversion is another good card for CEDH, especially for sakashima decks and Yuriko. If you have three creatures including eureka on board that's nine triggers at which should be enough typically in pivot to kill. Soakashima decks already want to have a bunch of copies of whatever they're already copying. 6 Tymna, 3 kraark's, etc.
Great video! Was wondering though is the witherbloom + chain of smog combo not a fast or good enough for green black and does not need commander in play to pull off? Was just curious, watched a few videos and this is not really ever brought up for a good win con. Thanks guys!🎉
I think the reason they don't much talk about it is because it needs protection to work - basically three card / abzan only. Like, unless you have Silence or Grand Abolisher, all someone has to do is counter one of your later copies of Chain of Smog / destroy Witherbloom and you're left without a hand.
Yes! Varragoth/Sidisi! Though I actually use Braids now to durdle. SDreams/Chasm is so fun haha. But yeah, my version evolved to a much higher cmc with alt wins via Aetherflux and supercharging Ad Naus via Scroll Rack. I can go for it very fast but that usually just means being rhe first one stopped. And yeah you have to sequence the chasm. All the black removal does help slow down other decks like Gitrog.
A friend of mine plays Analla and Jesus does it hurt. I play Lavania Omen Pool and once lavania is gone, it’s over. He got a turn one win in the wildest way. 15 minutes of him seeing the equations and doing this convoluted line.
I feel like Vohar is worth a mention on the list. Lists had been leaning more midrange since the printing of Orcish Bowmasters, but it can still turbo out wins consistently.
hi friends. If you want a VERY fast/fragile dargo CEDH deck, Dargo/Jeska leans toward T1-T2 wins when I was playtesting it. But it also folds to a gentle breeze.
I think that both inala and rog-sai have the same speed, but the cards needed is what make inalla faster. Both decks need the key piece in hand or a tutor to get it, but both can turn 0 win so while rog adds more ways to get mana that's more cards needed to draw which is a lower consistent win since that is a lower % of drawing a turn 1. It reminds me of turn 0 win decks where the reason they were fast was the turn they could win on. But inalla needing a single card means every other card in your hand can be a consistency card, fast mana, or counter play to maintain the combo. My take on the matter, I'm coming at it from a strictly percentile draw chance of winning turn 1, which isn't always practical
there are a handful of commander options that can win "turn one" and The Gitrog Monster is one of them. Koll, the Forgemaster is one of them and i feel should had been on this list. While i do not have cards like Yawgmoth's Will i feel like i tried everything to get Dihada, Binder of Wills to work and nothing would work. Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle can also win turn one and is only "slow" because "mono white" but i've had success playing him nonetheless.
True sadness that Old Stickfingers is not mentioned. That deck goes fast, although folds to ANY interaction and most stax pieces. But if a hand with that deck isn't presenting a t2 win it's a slow hand.
Cam, can you please do a Kenrith deck tech video. I love the deck techs and it’s been a while. Even if I’ve scoured the discord of Kenrith I’d enjoy watching it.
Pretty sure there was a recent video you guys did of the best cedh decks with a guest speaker. You guys agreed Rog/Si was the most explosive and scary but easily disrupted Cedh deck being able to go off turn 1 with the sculpted hand.
They severly underestimated how fast Etali is, its a turn 2 win 70% of the time. The fact is even if you dont win on the spot 2 to 3 Etali flips is usually enough to bury the table in advantage.
Ngl so true on the gotta go fast comment at around 26-27mins. I was recently wanting to play Yisan as I had a fun playing it, but since its my first time going to a cedh tourney I ended up changing my mind to play Selvala since i just felt like i had to go faster since turn 4 in cedh with no interaction outside of manglehorn/tks feels super uncomfey.
33:25 Wait you're telling me that previously Rhystic wasn't in all blue decks? Cause I definitely remember it being omnipresent since years ago. I really don't think Food Chain is more punished by the meta now rather than a while ago. I'd even go as far as to say that if you can win out of nowhere in the grindier meta present today, you're a decent deck
Am i just crazy for thinking tormod dargo would be a better cedh version as the dargo loop generates infinite bodies and infinite mana in contingencies for failure? Gives you explosive rakdos mana and combo, but gives you a very resilient reatempt at combo if stopped with that insane commander tax, as well as a grindy rakdos sac game plan, or just beat doen with zombies and dargo
16:13 that deck looks competent af. I mean sure no protection and this does look bad in about 9 minutes, but that applies to every deck in the game I believe.
Cormela is the teir 1 of cpdh last I checked as far as combo goes. Similar to the line u guys went through but uses ashnods altar supernatural stamina effects to go infinite.
15:01 the absolute SASS Dylan had when he said "ITS A 9 MANA COMBO? Slow" got me cackling this morning 😂
I want to see a game of CEDH on Game Knights. You two Josh and jimmy would be one hell of a game.
As somebody who loves listening during long drives I super appreciate you guys reading some of the cards out. I know most of them but there’s always the oddballs!
The Varragoth deck also uses lines post Naus to cast every piece of fast mana they have, replay them with Yawgmoth’s Will, cast a huge Exsanguinate to ensure you have more life than your opponents then do Sickening Dreams so that they can win without the land drop for the glacial chasm. With that line they can turn two.
From what I saw, the guys that topped that recent event with it essentially said “as long as I can turn one Varragoth I will present a turn two win 100% of the time”
Guys, pls cover the Japanese cEDH tournament held recently, they got some crazy decks that topped
Rowan Dragonstorm top 8 baybee
What was the tournament called?
I'm also curious the name of the event so I can check it out
It’s called God of Commander, run quarterly by the largest mtg store in here.
@@BOXICTOONANA; God of commander. I attended it and there was a lot of variety!
46:43 The fastest variant of Rocco is the turbo arena rector build which doesn't run food chain.
The Varragoth deck also uses a 0 mana artifact (Dark Sphere) that halves the damage you suffer in order to kill everyone but themselves with Sickening Dreams, so you can get another useful land drop.
I’d be interested in them going more into this deck. Dark sphere, songs of the damned, and every black tutor is also played in this deck. I play it and have won pretty consistently turn two.
I also think that they didn't look into it properly
You lose about 20/25 life by ad nauseam
My buddy plays Dihada in casual, and I was shocked at how much mana she generated and how quickly. Hearing she sees cEDH play and you guys discuss her now too makes me happy to hear, because man - that demon lady goes fast!
How does he win?
That delve line was gold
I was one of the players who played Varragoth at the tournament taking 7th this deck is always a turn 3 and can be turn 2 very consistently. I would go as far to say it’s the most consistent deck and is more consistent on a turn 2 win and somtimes a turn 1 than any other deck.
Do you have a list?
Here for the decklist. 😂😂😂
Separate comment for a separate issue: varragoth doesn't need glacial chasm, it can also sickening dreams with dark sphere cutting the damage that you take in half. That means you're not picking up your ENTIRE deck, but if you pick up enough cards with ad naus to kill your opponents while keeping your life total above half of that number (20 if an opponent is at 40,) you get there. Also, varragoth is an easy tutor in the command zone, but the deck can also just use the normal black tutors to find ad naus and ignore varragoth. It's definitely a faster deck than gitrog.
finally, as a cheeky backup, varragoth targets a player to tutor, so if you have oppo you can boast to make opponents search and feed you their win conditions. that isn't fast, but it makes the deck a little less frail than it appears
I know you two would disagree, but I love how deep your knowledge of the format is. I feel like I learn something new every time I watch you guys
As a Cormela player, you are correct in the mana required for that line, and it can seem slow. It absolutely can go fast, but she is also an excellent source of resources and recursion if the game gets grindy. I absolutely love my list it's the most fun deck I've ever played in cEDH.
As a Cormela lover (first cedh deck I tried to build,) the combo works best if you already have dark rit. If you can use a tutor to get dark ritual, it gives you the mana and you can combo off with literally 1 black. I've been able to present a win on turn 3, and with perfect mana rocks you could do it on turn 2
For inalla it does not matter if you have the pieces in hand, it just means spellseeker can go grab interaction instead of the combo piece. You DON'T want them in the graveyard because then that increases the mana required to go off and makes it so you have to extend the already notoriously long combo.
There's actually a really cool shortcut for the Spellseeker line. You just ask everyone to scoop so they don't have to sit through the combo
Amazing video. To Cam's point "it'd be lame if we did this off stats" I'd actually love to see that right at the end of the video. Like what do the stats say, how does that compare to what you have and why do the decks you've placed differently 'feel' faster or slower than the stats say.
Fwiw, Cormela _can_ get started from 5 mana, but you need to have dark ritual, saw in half, and demonic tutor in hand. You can loop dark ritual and saw in half to generate an extra black mana with each loop, then you can start casting demonic tutor once you've stockpiled enough mana.
If you have a brainstorm, or any cantrip, you can draw your hole deck without Demonic Tutor specifically, the combo is basically a ritual and saw in half
@@matheustymusmarszal4325 Yep. I just used demonic tutor in my example because it makes the combo the most streamlined. You don't have to draw your entire deck if you can just pick the 2-3 cards out of your deck that you need to win the game. Fewer spells and fewer interaction points. Besides, not every build of Cormela is guaranteed to run brainstorm, but idk a single build that doesn't run demonic tutor.
My point was not about the specific cards, but rather that there _are_ combinations of cards with which you only need 5 mana to win with Cormela in the command zone.
As a pilot of obscure/ potentially suboptimal commanders, it's nice to see Cormella ( one of my all time favorites) get a smidge of acknowledgement in cedh discussion.🙂 Hopefully I can earn her some reputation at the 8k in Georgia next week....................and now I'm off to finish this episode XD
The new Sidisi tutor for naus deck has some other tricks worth mentioning. It doesn’t always have to get the glacial chasm. (I have only looked at the list so speculating a bit)
You play a TON of zero mana creatures but there is a point to them. Once you discard them you can cast song of the damned and make a ton of mana so you can cast a big ol exanguinate or whatever that other version of exanguinate is. So you can sickening dreams enough to almost kill everyone (yourself included) then play a big x spell to finish off the table but you stay alive.
You also play Zuran orb. So even w/out glacial chasm, you can win by just sacrificing a couple lands to keep a higher life total than your opponents before sickening dreams. I thought this deck was absolutely hilarious.
I feel like it is a turn 3 deck but it’s not a “yeah, I’m prob gonna be able to win turn 3 (like Godo or Selvala)” but it’s more of like a “listen fuckers, you all got until my turn 3 to figure something out” full stop!
😉
I love that list a lot. I think it doesn’t often win turn 1 or 2 but it flat out will make the table dead t3 if they don’t stop it.
Dylan with the "Delve right into it" joke really got me XD
Also Cormella is a five mana combo if you use dark rit mana to activate your Cormella copies that you make with saw in half netting one mana each loop of saw in half and darrk rit then you can replace the dark rit in the loop with any instant/sorcery to win.
Facts. I run stax pieces in mine. And abrade flame of anor and prismari command to destroy them when im ready and it also doubles as card draw and wincon.
You have no idea the confusion you cause the pod by laying a torpor orb in these colors.
@@user-jj1qj4pq6o may i suggest running resculpt for this purpose over abrade( unless you have room for both, both is good) due to the fact that it not only exiles the target( so it hits the one ring etc.) but if you do remove your own piece it gives you a body/fodder for things like culling the week and such. just some food for thought. have fun out there :)
Great episode. Have to say I was disappointed you didn’t mention Birgi. I have personally had two turn one wins with Birgi and threatened several more turn one wins. Birgi is fragile for sure, but it consistently threatens wins. I have also had several turn two and turn three wins with Birgi, and even one late game turn twelve win fighting through several stax pieces and a Rhystic Study.
Ngl, I've cast Etali on turn one more than once since assembling the deck and let me say that it is one of THE most fun commanders I've ever put together. Like, it's debut game in my local cEDH tournament was literally a T1 dinosaur that within 3 turns had eliminated one player and assembled a win condition as well as bounced back from disruption to that win con. It was HOT. Also it's very first game I hit an Ad Naus off of an opponent on turn 2 (used Treasounous Ogre to cast Etali) and even at 22 life I managed to win due to someone elses Ad Nauseum. It was glorious.
In addition to all of this, it plays around and through Drannith Magistrate and Opposition Agent particularly well just because of the number of Lightning Bolts that it runs. It's only 3 in my list, but Bolt, Abrade, and Cathartic Pyre are just SO flexible most of the time. I really do love the deck, and I hope that it gets some amazing support pieces in the next few sets coming up!
Interesting note for Everybody Lives!, it says life totals can't change but does not actually stop damage from being dealt, so things like jeska/ishai or an early dargo threatening commander damage will still 'kill' you, you'll die as soon as the turn passes. Not a huge downside but important to keep in mind, especially when the card is already iffy
Does this mean u can play everybody lives, then ad naus, and get ur entire deck but just win before the turn ends?
@@seankeane769 you can, but also you don't need to. If you play everybody lives, ad naus will not cause you to lose life, so you can pick up as much of the deck as you want and keep your life total.
Interestingly, most state-based actions that cause players to lose the game (like the ones you mention) will keep happening, so you'll lose at the beginning of the next cleanup, but drawing from an empty library does not. That one's one-shot. If you empty your library, trying to draw from it won't make you lose, and you won't instantly lose until you attempt to draw again.
Speed is both total amount of mana required but also how it curves out.
I wasn't aware of the Cormela combo, but curving TX Cormella and TX+1 Cormella win is fairly good speed.
Vannifar, in comparison, is TX Vannifar and TX+1 also. But importantly Vannifar is castable via Jeweled Lotus, Sol Ring and Mana Crypt (so is Cormella, but "one turn later", if that makes sense :P)
100% agree with the Godo rating against Gitrog. Back when I played a ton of Gitrog, there was always a godo in my pod, and it always felt like a coin flip to who can win first, except Godo was more consistent with it. Always had to beat him with Ouphe and other stack pieces specifically for him haha.
Guys.....I started collecting during Unfinity and first pre-con was Dihada and I aggressively fell in love with her and the amount of love yall gave her...ty 😢
@dylan on the "is mana value of the combo what determines speed" thing, i think tmv is an important factor but you also have to consider things like consistency and followthrough.
OMG YES YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT DIHADA!!! I LOVE IT!!! Please play a game with her!!!! She's my fav :D
Same. She is so much fun but can be tailored to the power level you want. I also want the Geyadrone Dihada card. I think that one is sweet too
facts. I love that the whole deck is about making breach even more unfair somehow
Had a turn 1 win with korvold the other day. Gotta love the turn order lol
Was it a win with Korvold, or witherbloom + chain of smog with rain of filth or something?
@BVBridesifyer dualcaster/twinflame combo. The opening hand plan was to cast korvold turn 1 and cast jeskas will turn 2. My draw for first turn was mana vault so that made both possible and went for it. Hit the dualcaster off Jill and had drawn the twinflame from sac mana vault to korvold etb triggers
Next time you guys will have to hit the mugs together so hard they break lol
Why is birgi not on the list
"Everybody lives!" Has some cool interactions with the red turn spells. The najeela list that won a couple weeks ago uses it like angel's grace to not die to the "lose the game" triggers. It also functions as heroic intervention to protect opponent's stax pieces. Ill be adding it to mine. Idk how it works with ad naus though....
with everybody lives and ad naus, you should be able to get as many cards in your hand as you want because the life loss is an effect and not a cost
Yep! You can pick up your deck with Everybody Lives! and Ad Nauseam and lose no life.
I have cormela deck. It works better with a sac altar, and there's 3 instances (I think) that bring it back untapped. You storm off or x spell with infinite mana. The rest of the deck is grixis goodness and cormela works as a mana dork for the most part. The haste makes her. I'm so glad you guys covered her 😂
damn… "easierly"! we love to hear it
We’re scholars here
Reminds me of the classic "Nicely Job" from IGN Gamescoop lol
There’s a Rocco version that tutors academy rector, all you need is naya mana, 4 colorless, and a way to kill rector and that’s combo, and many of the ways you kill rector are one mana or free (and also double as removal) I’ve never gotten the turn 1 dream hand but I’ve combo’d off turn 2 or 3 pretty consistently
We need to get Cam into an office chair or something more comfortable! He has earned it.
Great video guys, keep up the content! The golf clap at the end....pro! LOL!
Rocco is faster as a Pod deck than Food chain, getting Arena Rector for vivien on the hunt
The Carmella combo I think works like this. Spend 1 on Carmella to make 3 that can only be spent on instant and sorcery. Spend black to cast dark ritual leaving BBBRU. Use BRU to cast saw in half. OG Carmella dies and gets back dark ritual. 2 Carmella enters, one dies and get back saw in half. Board stat is now untapped token Carmella, dark rit and saw in half in had with BB in mana pool. Use one to repeat above netting you B in the pool. So infinite black mana and infinite storm. Then you can turn the infinite black mana for anything into infinite R and U that can only be cast on instant and sorcery. Now how you get dark ritual and saw in half in hamd is whatever. I think that is where the confusion started because if you start with demonic tutor in hand, you can end with the combo, but it just starts with more mana to begin the combo.
rocco turbo doesn't need food chain either. you only need rocco for x=4 and a kill spell (which there are free options) for the win
That Hellraiser shirt is sick
Dylan has such sights to show you.
@@toctheyounger I see what you did there
So, I'm curious on your guy's thoughts on kaalia. I think she's fallen out of favor for a ton of people, but I'm not entirely sure why.
She can run ad naus, engine's out razaketh, do dockside loops, breach loops...
Following a primer for kaalia(b.a.d kaalia), she's apparently also very resilient.
Please edit to incrementally increase clap speed with the summary countdown...thank you for these videos!
Cormela combo takes 5 mana if Cormela isn’t on the field. It takes dark ritual and saw in half. This lets you cast saw in half off of dark ritual or Cormelas mana so you get infinite mana of every color for instants or sorceries and infinite black by repeating the line and you cast one tutor or an out like brain freeze with infinite storm count
While I agree the Dr Who set doesn't have many cEDH level cards, I'm curious on why The Master, Multiplied didn't make the conversation.
I definitely think it can have some legs, I played a list I put together the last cedh night we had and won half of my games with it so it was feeling good for me
I played against it once and it did not do much, so it did not make the cut for the conversation
@@Tspang42link to that list?
its very fragile and easy to stop. rakos colors really hurt him
I love that as the pod goes on, they start actually TALKING faster
Dargo Jeska can turn 1 with like 4 cards. Great furnace, Jeweled Lotus/LED, phyrexian altar and a mana crypt.
I got a buddy of mine who owns a card shop and we stayed up there for hours trying to figure out the cormella lines ourselves and came to the exact same conclusion. That line is slow and convoluted. lol
Cormela gives you a little mana to cast your Ad Naus (through her tap or culling of the weak cast twice) + she transforms Saw in Half into basically "1: return target instant or sorcery from your graveyard to your hand', which helps with the ability to attempt the win again after it has been stopped
So it's not the fastest deck, but it has a naturally fast grixis shell with the additional ability to attempt wins multiple times even on the same turn
I have the #1 Varragoth list on Tappedout for almost 3 years in a row, Just wanna post my list, even though I haven't worked on it in a while, Hope you guys think its cool.
This episode has really inspired me to keep working on it, thank you!
Virago th can also play dark sphere for 0 mana so you don’t need to save your land drop for glacial chasm
Would that help? Preventing half the damage would still kill you, because your life total will be in the single digits and you're trying to deal ~40 to everyone.
1:28 I think that nanogene conversion is another good card for CEDH, especially for sakashima decks and Yuriko. If you have three creatures including eureka on board that's nine triggers at which should be enough typically in pivot to kill. Soakashima decks already want to have a bunch of copies of whatever they're already copying. 6 Tymna, 3 kraark's, etc.
Great video! Was wondering though is the witherbloom + chain of smog combo not a fast or good enough for green black and does not need commander in play to pull off?
Was just curious, watched a few videos and this is not really ever brought up for a good win con.
Thanks guys!🎉
I think the reason they don't much talk about it is because it needs protection to work - basically three card / abzan only. Like, unless you have Silence or Grand Abolisher, all someone has to do is counter one of your later copies of Chain of Smog / destroy Witherbloom and you're left without a hand.
Yes! Varragoth/Sidisi! Though I actually use Braids now to durdle.
SDreams/Chasm is so fun haha.
But yeah, my version evolved to a much higher cmc with alt wins via Aetherflux and supercharging Ad Naus via Scroll Rack.
I can go for it very fast but that usually just means being rhe first one stopped.
And yeah you have to sequence the chasm. All the black removal does help slow down other decks like Gitrog.
A friend of mine plays Analla and Jesus does it hurt. I play Lavania Omen Pool and once lavania is gone, it’s over. He got a turn one win in the wildest way. 15 minutes of him seeing the equations and doing this convoluted line.
I feel like Vohar is worth a mention on the list. Lists had been leaning more midrange since the printing of Orcish Bowmasters, but it can still turbo out wins consistently.
I’m scared of casting everybody lives, then someone immediately casting a naus
hi friends. If you want a VERY fast/fragile dargo CEDH deck, Dargo/Jeska leans toward T1-T2 wins when I was playtesting it. But it also folds to a gentle breeze.
I think that both inala and rog-sai have the same speed, but the cards needed is what make inalla faster. Both decks need the key piece in hand or a tutor to get it, but both can turn 0 win so while rog adds more ways to get mana that's more cards needed to draw which is a lower consistent win since that is a lower % of drawing a turn 1.
It reminds me of turn 0 win decks where the reason they were fast was the turn they could win on. But inalla needing a single card means every other card in your hand can be a consistency card, fast mana, or counter play to maintain the combo. My take on the matter, I'm coming at it from a strictly percentile draw chance of winning turn 1, which isn't always practical
Hey guys just wantes to correct on rocco we can actually present wins turn 2 pretty easily
there are a handful of commander options that can win "turn one" and The Gitrog Monster is one of them. Koll, the Forgemaster is one of them and i feel should had been on this list. While i do not have cards like Yawgmoth's Will i feel like i tried everything to get Dihada, Binder of Wills to work and nothing would work. Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle can also win turn one and is only "slow" because "mono white" but i've had success playing him nonetheless.
True sadness that Old Stickfingers is not mentioned. That deck goes fast, although folds to ANY interaction and most stax pieces. But if a hand with that deck isn't presenting a t2 win it's a slow hand.
Varragoth doesn't need to hit glacial chasm to prevent the damage just need to cast dark sphere and sac it.
Props to Godo for hanging in there without black mana
1:51 Everybody Lives! Seems like it has potential in CEDH
Cam, can you please do a Kenrith deck tech video. I love the deck techs and it’s been a while. Even if I’ve scoured the discord of Kenrith I’d enjoy watching it.
Pretty sure there was a recent video you guys did of the best cedh decks with a guest speaker. You guys agreed Rog/Si was the most explosive and scary but easily disrupted Cedh deck being able to go off turn 1 with the sculpted hand.
They severly underestimated how fast Etali is, its a turn 2 win 70% of the time. The fact is even if you dont win on the spot 2 to 3 Etali flips is usually enough to bury the table in advantage.
Good interaction is ad nus with everyone lives allows you to draw your deck then mill everyone out. You can also just draw most of your deck as well.
Ngl so true on the gotta go fast comment at around 26-27mins.
I was recently wanting to play Yisan as I had a fun playing it, but since its my first time going to a cedh tourney I ended up changing my mind to play Selvala since i just felt like i had to go faster since turn 4 in cedh with no interaction outside of manglehorn/tks feels super uncomfey.
Sick hellraiser shirt Dylan.
THANK YOU
Let’s delve right into it ; HOLY SHIT 😂😂😂
On the Dr who thing I think cyber conversion is a solid removal spell
Actually just won a game today with flesh duplicate as a copy of thassas oracles. Low key crazy
33:25
Wait you're telling me that previously Rhystic wasn't in all blue decks? Cause I definitely remember it being omnipresent since years ago. I really don't think Food Chain is more punished by the meta now rather than a while ago. I'd even go as far as to say that if you can win out of nowhere in the grindier meta present today, you're a decent deck
29:16 Dihada gives those keywords until your NEXT turn, not END of turn. The indestructible last for a full turn cycle bro.
Cormela also has mana based infinites. Like pemmins and freed
Good list. I'm surprised anje was not in the list
Am i just crazy for thinking tormod dargo would be a better cedh version as the dargo loop generates infinite bodies and infinite mana in contingencies for failure? Gives you explosive rakdos mana and combo, but gives you a very resilient reatempt at combo if stopped with that insane commander tax, as well as a grindy rakdos sac game plan, or just beat doen with zombies and dargo
I swear y’all don’t even want to acknowledge the existence of Korvold at this point
With some of the lowest odds possible, Grist 12 entombs can threaten a win turn 0!
I think worldgorger decks desearves a quote on the video too, anje its really fast too
Im shocked Magda was not mentioned here
Really no Temur Pirates mention, the disrespect to my boy Malcolm ;(
Dylan where did you get that shirt?? That's badass!!
16:13 that deck looks competent af.
I mean sure no protection and this does look bad in about 9 minutes, but that applies to every deck in the game I believe.
I really thought this group would be higher on Everybody Lives to disrupt win cons.
what about Korvold food chain? still viable?
As a dedicated foodchain deck not so much but he should have been mentioned
Vampire Wizard Money Gang! LETS GO!
Frog doesn't run squandered ressources apparently
Cormela is the teir 1 of cpdh last I checked as far as combo goes. Similar to the line u guys went through but uses ashnods altar supernatural stamina effects to go infinite.
Dark sphere works with sickening dreams
What about Ryan Sinclair and the war doctor? Thats literally a 2 card lethal combo in your Command Zone!
“Roai” and “Goto” 😂
Haha, Food Sliver: "All slivers you control are food and have "2,T,sac: gain 3 life"
Lets do this
I want to see that Varragoth deck played sometime, that sounds sick.
I've never seen Cormela before this, somehow.... She seems very interesting and like right up my alley 😮
21:06 literally 2 weeks ago you said the format had slowed!
I would have added Turbo Tasigur