You know why Kurt is the man? Cause what most other players call a brilliant artistic statement, he calls and exercise. He practices what he plays on the bandstand, and that's why he's so musical. Thanks for posting this!
@Skepticalnature but if you want to hear someone play a ballad chord melody a la Johnny Smith or Kenny Burrell, you could easily find two dozen solid guitarists in New York to accommodate you. Most of the voicings and chord melody tecnique those guys used were pretty run of the mill and stock (with the exception of Lenny and George), of course they used them incredibly well. but my point is, the harmonic capacity of the guitar has been pushed well beyond that era. Kurt has a mastery of chord
@seanjazzguitar I've played with guys like Eddy. They're fun for a bit, then the novelty wears off and you're listening to a guy who can't swing and doesn't listen. If you try and change the form or alter the changes, they can't cope because they're set in their world of static harmony and licks. I especially see it happen when I go over to Europe to play. I've had the honor of playing with some amazing European cats, but a reccuring problem is a lack of swing stiffness and a lack of interaction
@seanjazzguitar I heard him throw in a few triplets like at :30. At 1:55 Eddy skips a beat and almost loses the form because he's been rushing 32nd notes for 30 seconds straight. You can even hear the fret buzz from Eddy hitting the notes so stiff and harsh. Again at 2:45 Eddy almost loses it by rushing his chord solo. At 3:46 when they are trading half choruses, Eddy looks at Kurt and plays a different lick, but then goes back to his bad habits at 4:04. Either 32nd notes or block chords.
@Skepticalnature melody in that style, it's a part of his bag. But in the 1960s and beyond nonfunctional voicings and polychords and the like became part of the jazz vernacular, and modern players like Kurt (and even more so players like Ben Monder) have pushed that harmonic language pretty far on the instrument. Kurt is one of the most harmonically facile guitarists I have ever heard, the breadth of his knowledge of voicing, and harmonization on the guitar, and the taste with which he employs
I.E: In different harmonic structures / chord progressions etc; the artists each exhibit similar linear passages. BUT, I found Kurt to be most interesting, in that the conceptual ways in which he applied said material was very organic. It often grew, changed, extended beyond what was initially stated, in a rhythmic and harmonic sense. If you are interested I can email you a comparison of inherent improvising concepts I distended from my transcriptions. It was part of my University study.
Hi there and sorry to butt in. In my opinion there is a definite difference between each of the players you have both been discussing. I have transcribed Kurt, Bireli and Sylvain, Kreisberg, and a few other older artists - Joe Pass, Wes, Benson etc - and noticed distinctive language, vocab based licks, patterns and 'common' jazz material within EVERY players linear work. That is, the exact same harmonic (and most importantly melodic) material can be found in different musical contexts.
I think there are so many great chordal players nowadays - check out ANY Ben Monder album, look at all Kurt's work on here (See Kurt in break or Kurt untitled improvisation), Kreisbergs great cluster voicings on the intro to Stella by Starlight of South of Everywhere (and his amazing solo chord work on All the things in 7/8 with Chris Potter on YT), Allan Holdsworths chords. ALL of these guys are incredible chord players - I don't know any younger jazz giant that isn't an encyclopeadia of chords
@Skepticalnature Let's put opinions aside and just dissect the playing on the Stella video. Eddy starts out with some good statements and he and Kurt have some good interaction, but Eddy doesn't end up following through in his solo. In the middle of his solo, he is either playing 8th notes without breaks or 32nd notes without breaks. Most of the times he starts a musical phrase, it's on beat one.
@Skepticalnature edd'ys solo then eddy plays in his whole solo. Also kurt is not having any trouble playing double time as far as I can see, he just choses not to because doubling up at that tempo only means that you can machine gun through your scale patterns and memorized licks rather than interacting with your musical partner or creating new melodies and rhythms over the form. In my estimation Kurt cuts eddy to pieces in that video (not that that was his goal)
@Skepticalnature He takes a 3 minute solo in the 1st video, he's just trying to trade 16s when he stops. also the tempo is a solid medium so I'm not sure what u mean. Eddy's just doubling up over top the chords, takes a lot of chops but not a lot of harmonic facility since the harmonic rhythm remains slow. Also the first line he plays in those 16 bars he's breezing thru that double-time. the difference is he plays legato, Eddy's got a killer right hand, but this also means his DT doesnt swing
@Skepticalnature as far as chord melody goes, I've studied kurt's techniques extensively and I have studied players like Barney Kessel, Johnny Smith, Lenny Breau, Kenny Burrell and George Van Eps too. Kurt is very much within the scope of these masters. I wouldn't exactly call chord melody a lost art, there are legions of jazz guitarists that are trained to mimic those chord melody techniques of the 40s and 50s. NOt that they can do it with the artistic integrity of the above mentionedmasters
So to me, he stood above many others in a strictly 'harmonic' sense; because of the nature of his linear development, melodic facility, and the fact that ALL the others I transcribed quickly and easily - Kurt I could not. Of that list, Sylvain would be the next most interesting for me personally - because he too has a massive vocab, but again applies it very organically in most cases. There is still a lot more 'borrowed language in the soli I transcribed; but of course this may not be true of
When he begins talking about harmonic vocabulary and shows his set of chords for Ab+7, do any of you know if he's using just drop-2 voicing's or a combination of those with upper structures?
Guys, i kept them all not searchable because last time i posted Scott Henderson's amazing solos, he was so unkind and youtube said next time they will close my account. I will free the rest tomorrow from work. Sandemose, thanks for asking kindly, Duteros :D u r freaking out, it seems, i checked ur channel and it looks amazing, r u Argentinian? Saludos.
cont: or is it specialization in playing fast or what is the goal? I live you being so interested that you dig into it with all your brains, but should it be to compare whos best, or just to understand these masters abilities and ways to go on further yourselves? I know it kinda sux to be this moral policeman, but I think it's extremely important to altså discuss for instance feeling in music.. Anyways, I would also be happy if I could be allowed to read you studies, dragondix, of interst :)
I've read the discussion on modern chordal players and abilities and stuff (stuff is a funny word to put in this conversation lol).. But I alså think you all have to point out, what you are seeking in a player. I find Ben Monder extraordinary fantastic because of the whole sound emerging, when he plays - though not allways. I also find Marc Ribot an incredible musician, even though he cannot be compared to any of these guys at their own disciplines. Is it complexity, is it all over complexity
@Skepticalnature I've met people who put down modern guitarists like Kurt, because he's a popular figure. They want to distance themselves from the general consensus by making a fuss about how so and so is over-rated so as to look cool by . They're the same folks who call the Beatles over-rated simply because they're a household name. Get over yourselves and loose the musical bias. Listen to it for what it is, don't posture.
EVERY solo. In terms of SWING, FEEL, ENERGY, EXECUTION - that is very difficult to define for each player, in a strict sense. At the end of the day, doesn't it come down to preference, to subjective based feelings - i.e. what you dig? Surely comparisons of that nature (i.e.saying things such as - Benson SWINGS more than Wes; or Joe Pass has more energy than blah blah) - become less important / irrelevant?
@seanjazzguitar And then at 8:00 on the outro, Kurt is winding it down, but Eddy just goes back to his 32nd note runs and even loses the changes at 8:18.
@Skepticalnature Actually one more thing I'd like to point, just as an observation, there are ultra modern cats the rail on Kurt for not pushing the music and playing like it's 1957 and then there are ultra traditionalists that rail on him for not playing like Charlie Christian. Also, I personally DO think that Pat Martino noodles, although he didn't as much pre aneurysm (he's one of my first and greatest influences don't get me wrong here) okay I'm done here, sweet dreams
@Skepticalnature these are very unique. I believe he would cite George Van Eps as one of his greatest influences in this regard. Eddy Palermo has great harmonic facility as well, the guy is a fantastic player, but in 10 seconds I can hear that he has nowhere near the harmonic palette of kurt, and frankly, in my opinion, even less taste than that, comparatively speaking. Anyway, please listen to the musicians you prefer, and by all means enjoy their playing. I just think some of what has been
I am not trying to be nasty - I just want to learn! Please pop me your email. I would just like to see the written / transcribed evidence that you have on how the players (as in not just 'I listened to these guys so I have formed this incredibly detailed opinion on who is playing what and how') - I mean transcribed evidence AND detailed explanations and analyses of what you found and most importnatly comparisons. I am happy to send you my studies.
I don't dig McClaughlin, just not a fan. And NO he is not heavier or more outside than Kurt. Please send me your transcriptions and comparisons of these guys - I just emailed Mauricio (who asked me above) all of my transcriptions for the guys - and more importantly the huge body of text I wrote for the study I did which showed me personally that what Kurt does with melodic, harmonic and rhythmic material is in general terms, more advanced than pretty much any other player I transcribed.
@Skepticalnature Can't resist the temptation to jump in here haha. I checked that video and I couldn't disagree with you more. However, its important to point out that the argument you two are having is not one that Kurt and Eddy would be interested in. We need to recognize that players at their level are comfortable in their own skins and clearly those two are just having a ball playing. Eddy has some incredible chops no doubt, but Kurt plays more bebop in those 16 bars he takes at the end of
@Skepticalnature Perhaps you should listen to some pianists, sax players and singers to round out your ears. My musical heros run the gambit. Jazz language, improv in general is a conversation. Ask any player out there to comment on the video. Eddy's a good player, but on the video he sounds like a mosquito buzzing around, too afraid to bite. No sound, No swing, No soul. Kurt however, plays clear, musical ideas that follow through. There's a reason why Kurt is so famous and Eddy is fringe.
He's improvising a chord melody over Monk's "Ruby My Dear". No one plays more guitar than Kurt, in my estimation, and he swings so hard.
You know why Kurt is the man? Cause what most other players call a brilliant artistic statement, he calls and exercise. He practices what he plays on the bandstand, and that's why he's so musical. Thanks for posting this!
This is a fantastic insight into his approach, Lovely sound.
Learning songs like that takes real work
Please post more. This is fantastic.
@Skepticalnature but if you want to hear someone play a ballad chord melody a la Johnny Smith or Kenny Burrell, you could easily find two dozen solid guitarists in New York to accommodate you. Most of the voicings and chord melody tecnique those guys used were pretty run of the mill and stock (with the exception of Lenny and George), of course they used them incredibly well. but my point is, the harmonic capacity of the guitar has been pushed well beyond that era. Kurt has a mastery of chord
@seanjazzguitar I've played with guys like Eddy. They're fun for a bit, then the novelty wears off and you're listening to a guy who can't swing and doesn't listen. If you try and change the form or alter the changes, they can't cope because they're set in their world of static harmony and licks. I especially see it happen when I go over to Europe to play. I've had the honor of playing with some amazing European cats, but a reccuring problem is a lack of swing stiffness and a lack of interaction
@seanjazzguitar I heard him throw in a few triplets like at :30. At 1:55 Eddy skips a beat and almost loses the form because he's been rushing 32nd notes for 30 seconds straight. You can even hear the fret buzz from Eddy hitting the notes so stiff and harsh. Again at 2:45 Eddy almost loses it by rushing his chord solo. At 3:46 when they are trading half choruses, Eddy looks at Kurt and plays a different lick, but then goes back to his bad habits at 4:04. Either 32nd notes or block chords.
@Skepticalnature melody in that style, it's a part of his bag. But in the 1960s and beyond nonfunctional voicings and polychords and the like became part of the jazz vernacular, and modern players like Kurt (and even more so players like Ben Monder) have pushed that harmonic language pretty far on the instrument. Kurt is one of the most harmonically facile guitarists I have ever heard, the breadth of his knowledge of voicing, and harmonization on the guitar, and the taste with which he employs
I.E: In different harmonic structures / chord progressions etc; the artists each exhibit similar linear passages. BUT, I found Kurt to be most interesting, in that the conceptual ways in which he applied said material was very organic. It often grew, changed, extended beyond what was initially stated, in a rhythmic and harmonic sense. If you are interested I can email you a comparison of inherent improvising concepts I distended from my transcriptions. It was part of my University study.
Hi there and sorry to butt in. In my opinion there is a definite difference between each of the players you have both been discussing. I have transcribed Kurt, Bireli and Sylvain, Kreisberg, and a few other older artists - Joe Pass, Wes, Benson etc - and noticed distinctive language, vocab based licks, patterns and 'common' jazz material within EVERY players linear work. That is, the exact same harmonic (and most importantly melodic) material can be found in different musical contexts.
I think there are so many great chordal players nowadays - check out ANY Ben Monder album, look at all Kurt's work on here (See Kurt in break or Kurt untitled improvisation), Kreisbergs great cluster voicings on the intro to Stella by Starlight of South of Everywhere (and his amazing solo chord work on All the things in 7/8 with Chris Potter on YT), Allan Holdsworths chords. ALL of these guys are incredible chord players - I don't know any younger jazz giant that isn't an encyclopeadia of chords
@Skepticalnature Let's put opinions aside and just dissect the playing on the Stella video. Eddy starts out with some good statements and he and Kurt have some good interaction, but Eddy doesn't end up following through in his solo. In the middle of his solo, he is either playing 8th notes without breaks or 32nd notes without breaks. Most of the times he starts a musical phrase, it's on beat one.
@Skepticalnature edd'ys solo then eddy plays in his whole solo. Also kurt is not having any trouble playing double time as far as I can see, he just choses not to because doubling up at that tempo only means that you can machine gun through your scale patterns and memorized licks rather than interacting with your musical partner or creating new melodies and rhythms over the form. In my estimation Kurt cuts eddy to pieces in that video (not that that was his goal)
@Skepticalnature He takes a 3 minute solo in the 1st video, he's just trying to trade 16s when he stops. also the tempo is a solid medium so I'm not sure what u mean. Eddy's just doubling up over top the chords, takes a lot of chops but not a lot of harmonic facility since the harmonic rhythm remains slow. Also the first line he plays in those 16 bars he's breezing thru that double-time. the difference is he plays legato, Eddy's got a killer right hand, but this also means his DT doesnt swing
@Skepticalnature as far as chord melody goes, I've studied kurt's techniques extensively and I have studied players like Barney Kessel, Johnny Smith, Lenny Breau, Kenny Burrell and George Van Eps too. Kurt is very much within the scope of these masters. I wouldn't exactly call chord melody a lost art, there are legions of jazz guitarists that are trained to mimic those chord melody techniques of the 40s and 50s. NOt that they can do it with the artistic integrity of the above mentionedmasters
So to me, he stood above many others in a strictly 'harmonic' sense; because of the nature of his linear development, melodic facility, and the fact that ALL the others I transcribed quickly and easily - Kurt I could not. Of that list, Sylvain would be the next most interesting for me personally - because he too has a massive vocab, but again applies it very organically in most cases. There is still a lot more 'borrowed language in the soli I transcribed; but of course this may not be true of
Is this the fourth part of the seminar? Is there a 1,2,3 as well? Best, Sandemose
When he begins talking about harmonic vocabulary and shows his set of chords for Ab+7, do any of you know if he's using just drop-2 voicing's or a combination of those with upper structures?
^7 or Maj7 isn't it? +7 as far as I and most musicians read it would be interpreted as an altered dominant 7 chord.
Guys, i kept them all not searchable because last time i posted Scott Henderson's amazing solos, he was so unkind and youtube said next time they will close my account. I will free the rest tomorrow from work.
Sandemose, thanks for asking kindly, Duteros :D u r freaking out, it seems, i checked ur channel and it looks amazing, r u Argentinian? Saludos.
cont: or is it specialization in playing fast or what is the goal? I live you being so interested that you dig into it with all your brains, but should it be to compare whos best, or just to understand these masters abilities and ways to go on further yourselves? I know it kinda sux to be this moral policeman, but I think it's extremely important to altså discuss for instance feeling in music.. Anyways, I would also be happy if I could be allowed to read you studies, dragondix, of interst :)
I've read the discussion on modern chordal players and abilities and stuff (stuff is a funny word to put in this conversation lol).. But I alså think you all have to point out, what you are seeking in a player. I find Ben Monder extraordinary fantastic because of the whole sound emerging, when he plays - though not allways. I also find Marc Ribot an incredible musician, even though he cannot be compared to any of these guys at their own disciplines. Is it complexity, is it all over complexity
I don't understand why someone posts something, calls it "04" and doesn't post the rest. Why bother telling
us it's part 4??????
@Skepticalnature I've met people who put down modern guitarists like Kurt, because he's a popular figure. They want to distance themselves from the general consensus by making a fuss about how so and so is over-rated so as to look cool by . They're the same folks who call the Beatles over-rated simply because they're a household name. Get over yourselves and loose the musical bias. Listen to it for what it is, don't posture.
This guy has been listening to some George Van Eps, it seems to me!
EVERY solo. In terms of SWING, FEEL, ENERGY, EXECUTION - that is very difficult to define for each player, in a strict sense. At the end of the day, doesn't it come down to preference, to subjective based feelings - i.e. what you dig? Surely comparisons of that nature (i.e.saying things such as - Benson SWINGS more than Wes; or Joe Pass has more energy than blah blah) - become less important / irrelevant?
@seanjazzguitar And then at 8:00 on the outro, Kurt is winding it down, but Eddy just goes back to his 32nd note runs and even loses the changes at 8:18.
@Skepticalnature Actually one more thing I'd like to point, just as an observation, there are ultra modern cats the rail on Kurt for not pushing the music and playing like it's 1957 and then there are ultra traditionalists that rail on him for not playing like Charlie Christian. Also, I personally DO think that Pat Martino noodles, although he didn't as much pre aneurysm (he's one of my first and greatest influences don't get me wrong here) okay I'm done here, sweet dreams
do you know what song he play in this video?
Well, if you don't mind, I would like to take a look at your University study. :)
@Skepticalnature these are very unique. I believe he would cite George Van Eps as one of his greatest influences in this regard. Eddy Palermo has great harmonic facility as well, the guy is a fantastic player, but in 10 seconds I can hear that he has nowhere near the harmonic palette of kurt, and frankly, in my opinion, even less taste than that, comparatively speaking. Anyway, please listen to the musicians you prefer, and by all means enjoy their playing. I just think some of what has been
I am not trying to be nasty - I just want to learn! Please pop me your email. I would just like to see the written / transcribed evidence that you have on how the players (as in not just 'I listened to these guys so I have formed this incredibly detailed opinion on who is playing what and how') - I mean transcribed evidence AND detailed explanations and analyses of what you found and most importnatly comparisons. I am happy to send you my studies.
dragondix Instead of all that shit, start practicing
@Skepticalnature said just doesn't stand up to the scrutiny of most accomplished or even educated guitarists
I don't dig McClaughlin, just not a fan. And NO he is not heavier or more outside than Kurt. Please send me your transcriptions and comparisons of these guys - I just emailed Mauricio (who asked me above) all of my transcriptions for the guys - and more importantly the huge body of text I wrote for the study I did which showed me personally that what Kurt does with melodic, harmonic and rhythmic material is in general terms, more advanced than pretty much any other player I transcribed.
@Skepticalnature Can't resist the temptation to jump in here haha. I checked that video and I couldn't disagree with you more. However, its important to point out that the argument you two are having is not one that Kurt and Eddy would be interested in. We need to recognize that players at their level are comfortable in their own skins and clearly those two are just having a ball playing. Eddy has some incredible chops no doubt, but Kurt plays more bebop in those 16 bars he takes at the end of
@Skepticalnature Perhaps you should listen to some pianists, sax players and singers to round out your ears. My musical heros run the gambit. Jazz language, improv in general is a conversation. Ask any player out there to comment on the video. Eddy's a good player, but on the video he sounds like a mosquito buzzing around, too afraid to bite. No sound, No swing, No soul. Kurt however, plays clear, musical ideas that follow through. There's a reason why Kurt is so famous and Eddy is fringe.
what's your email? Private message me!