The old guys carried the torch to keep this hobby relevant and never discriminated if someone wanted to learn how to play. This new think of identity politics is a ball of shit that we don't want anything to do with.
Gaming has ALWAYS had too few people who weren't old white heterosexual guys (I vividly remember being in an uncomfortable "university" roleplaying game club whose primary actual membership was at least 10-20 years past college age, white-skinned and white-haired, and very, very fat and male), it's just now that we're more aware of how white, heterosexual guys have always used unsubtly coded racism, homophobia and misogyny, usually in the guise of "humor," to keep people who weren't already in that group out. Old white guys are the vermin of the hobby.
So now that people are more vocal about inclusiveness, those that never discriminated are suddenly turning their backs on these people? How does that make sense?
@@schemage2210 it’s quite the opposite. Back before Wokeism and types that use terms like biological essentialism when referring to a furkin imaginary race, we just played ttrpg’s and had fun. We were never not inclusive. The woke, unrepresentative, hysterical lynch mob appears and wants white straight males gone. And the end result? Diversity hires that alter and ruin not only our hobby but every facet of entertainment. WOKEISM HAS RUINED D&D, Pathfinder, Savage Worlds. The list is endless.
@@schemage2210 It's not just the inclusiveness itself that is the problem. As far as I can remember, nobody I ever gamed with would have a problem with more diversity in players sitting at the table. The issue is that the people who are more vocal about inclusiveness are also often demanding such inclusion is written into the games that the old "grognards" still want to play. A lot of the games we play might have a world with a different culture to it that later generations of adults and kids find downright offensive. The couple fast examples I can think of is the ongoing debate around female space marines in the 40k universe, and fantasy games that are more heavily inspired by genuine Earth history might have women treated as second class citizens within some of their feudalistic kingdoms.
Man... I agree 100% with you. This common point of view regarding inclusivity is broken. They are bringing to the table subjects that are not related to the hobby. And weponize it in a political way with the intention to crush other points of view by descrimination. That's a double standard or doublethinking. And it is dividing people. That's sad
Gaming as a hobby is better for having you in it, Grim. Your point of view, your insights, and your experience are a valuable resource for everyone to draw upon.
@@schemage2210 You dont need an ideology to be interested in protecting something you love. So ideology or not its important to gatekeep bad actor no matter their claims. After you would never trust your dog to Michael Vick or your daughter with Jeffery Epstein no matter what they would claim would you when they shown time and again not to be trust worthy sorts.
@@jeframdenkar dude, you are literally giving the definition of ideology. This is what google has to say on the matter: "A set of doctrines or beliefs that are shared by the members of a social group or that form the basis of a political, economic, or other system. " But hey, you don't have an ideology. Silly me.
@@schemage2210 Again you don't need to have an ideological reason to protect something you love from a hostile ideology. Especially as the hostile ideology being gatekept demands people and things be changed to fit their world view.
I honestly can't comprehend the focus of identity politics (on both sides) on such immutable things as race, sexuality and age. People are way more than that, and pointing the finger at things we can not change does nothing but divide.
I'm a new artist in the rpg niche, and i've noticed that the OSR types are very accommodating and accepting. They've never noticed my sex or politics, in fact, they've not seemed to care nor ever even ask. I think I agree completely with you, Grim.
Yes. These people preach inclusiveness while simultaneously condemning people for their race, sexual orientation and age. And I don't think they can see how absurd that is.
@@PostmortemVideo Yup! The way it often goes is that after they're done canceling you they'll go charging off after whatever the freshest offense of the present is. So it's possible to be cancelled more than once if you do something else that puts you back in the present spotlight. You might grow your channel through pure "hate watching" that way. Hey, wait a minute...
speaking as an old, white, straight grognard (who like you isn't strictly either an OSR guy nor a Storyelling-only guy, though I did start back in the days of the three little booklets), the ageism goes back a few years; I recall attending a panel at Pax West where one panelist repeatedly uttered the phrase 'waiting for the old people to die off' unironically (I only wish I'd had the presence of mind to stand up and yell "I'm RIGHT HERE!"). Throwing me as a conservative into the mix, I agree with what you've said here; while we could argue about politics for sure, I bet we'd have a blast if we sat down to roll dice together.
"there are too many"...... the question I would ask them is: How many is not too many? What is the allowable number of straight white grognards in the hobby? And also what should be done about the excess? I dunno about them, but how I run my table doesn't include any kind of Purity Check, come to have fun and not be a dickhead, that's about it.
I find so many of those who preach inclusivity shouting, "Ok Boomer!" without the self-awareness or understanding that that term is ageist and fundamentally counter to their alleged belief system.
I find it hard to understand how is this even a thing? You don’t even have three to half a dozen languages to learn to find a group or event compared to continental Europe. Back in the days I joined RP community here in Eastern Europe, TTRPGs spare for WoD with glamgoth chicks and drama were for nerds and dorks and wargame kids mostly, while LARPs were for theatre kids pushing into their twenties and older or fighting enjoyers in the summer and in winter most of them migrated to play-by-text on forums and IIRC. The only loons who hated any particular demographic could be totally socially inept creeps of both sexes who couldn’t comprehend how you go and pilfer romantic interest in other medium events or fests or chatrooms because they couldn’t spell or refrain from acting weird when drunk. Roleplaying was always the most inviting hobby to autistic individuals and queer folk and a lot of stuff not tolerated almost anywhere in public back in nineties was allowed in this subculture and you didn’t have to suffer punk baptism or convincingly lie that you’re a metal head to join it. I miss the times RP was underground and there were subcultures instead of hype and mainstream and rabid online cliques. You had to socialize at a concert or something to start a holy war, and then everybody just drank their grievances off and found a common ground by the end of the night dropping off lightweights and other casualties.
Exactly, discriminating against someone based on age, sex, or race makes you a bigot. Someone stating that everyone of race x, sex y, and age z is a problem to be eliminated makes them a truly awful person. Doesn't matter what game you play, some a$$hat is going to cause trouble because they're broken somehow. The most popular games are statistically more likely to have the biggest group of troublesome elements. I'm assuming that is why the most popular games, like CoC and D&D5 have the most sanitization and social controls built in.
I participated in a game or two with some of the woke crowd. Honestly, it was really boring. Nothing happened and everything was tame and every toon was a self insert. It was just lame. They where also really fucking mean. Like meaner then me, and I'm a certified asshole.
Great video. I enjoyed it. i do find it funny how in the 80s, where we were supposedly the worst ever in TTRPGS and other games, we had the largest acceptance for anyone to join. yes horny young teenage boys acted like young teenage boys. but as soon as a young lady joined they usually fell right in line. that whole Stero type of nerds was there for a reason. we welcomed anyone who wanted to join and actually put effort into playing. in a time when it was not cool or popular, you did not block a person from playing. were there bad actors in the hobby? sure. but nothing like today. no one cared if you played a character of the opposite sex. no one cared what subrace your character was. we wanted to play and have fun. we slayed monsters, became heroes or villians depending on the campaign. and cheered for each other's natural twenties. we told epic stories and no one cared about a persons sexuality or how they dressed. (you had to take showers, we cared about the smell.) what we cared about was how the person acted. if you were an asshat who tried to break the game then you had to go. but if you were there to have a good time. chiped in for the pizza and snacks, you were accepted in with no issues. I am now at the gate of 50. And I gate keep. not the hobby itself. but those i play with. I am here to play a game and have fun. throw my dice, laugh at the failures. cheer for the success of both my fellow players as well as my own. And we do not want or need the idealogues in our games making it meserible for us while we play. this is what we do to escape all that crap that seems to want to divide and break society.
I really don't understand how people of my generation and younger can't understand how their bullying behavior is exactly what they claim other folks do. I mean if I explained that I like Gor as a fantasy world then I would get ousted from certain sectors of the hobby. Likewise I don't see how making dark elements in gaming tantamount to heresy. Personally I did experience some of the echoes of the satanic panic and frankly it turned me off from moral busy bodies who think everything that isn't christian (re: progressive) is demonic (re: far right). Anyway I hope this gets put into a comment video. lel
Most probably don't think it through, so they don't notice that they're bullying; they're just riding the high of self-empowerment through it, coupled with the sense of belonging if doing so as part of a mob. Some probably _do_ realize it, but I'd imagine for most of those, the condemnation of other bullies is just a political tactic, as well as an attempt at painting a more virtuous façade of themselves to their audience and followers.
I love the take because it confuses the fact anyone can and did make the OSR up as a thing and thinks its just a bunch of white guys who just had the money
It's just the ever creeping anti-white agenda, for one it shouldn't be a problem if there is a majority of white people, or white males doing a hobby however it goes even further than that they actually want to construct or deconstruct what is going. It's racist engineering
Well said Mr. Vandemar... I will add that these people who are flapping there arms so furiously will be gone from the hobby soon just because they have burned their own neighborhood down. In the old days this was the guy that was just at the table to screw with everyone else and had no respect for the game or those around him. This is also the guy that was not invited back for a second round. So as gamers who love the game we have to say no to this. In many ways this is a great analog of society. If you are poison you are excluded from the fun zone . They can say that they don't want me in their game but the truth is I don't care or want to be in their game. Its really simple... if you are an A-hole to me we don't game together. So today if someone says to me you can't exclude me from the hobby I will say you are right and I'm not trying to exclude you from the hobby BUT if you say you can't exclude me from your game then I will say to you, WRONG! You are wrong dear Sir, Madam, child... if you are an A-Hole you are not in my game or in my friend group period. A-Hole has no color, race, sexual preference or any other distinction you could hang your complaint on. So I say Be firm and polite as you can be, and, just base your decision on the PERSON and what they bring to YOUR TABLE. That's what the arm flapping is supposed to be about in the first place isn't it?
I think it's really important to distinguish having beef with others as gamers at the table as opposed to away from the table. It's definitely the case, for example, that a person someone is friends with can be subpar to play a TTRPG with, due to their behavior at the table (i.e. they're unable to rein in a confrontational attitude with the GM or other players and can't get with the program) or due to incompatibilities in gaming style (i.e. they play to be "the best PC" and treat the other PCs like stepping stones). None of these is inherently tied to race, sexual orientation, age, sex, or gender. With enough exposure to gaming with others, anyone whose head is not up their ass will realize this.
If you look at the videos of the last Gen Con, and the crowds on the lines or exiting the main venues, you will see the super majority of the demographic. The TTRPG hobby in the USA is between 80 - 85% male. Of that group, between 80 - 85% are caucasian. Most of those appear to be over 30. To say that there are too many of this demographic is like saying there are too many people in this hobby. It is largely a white male hobby, those complaining about that need to get over it or move on.
Speaking as a white straight man, over 50, who's been playing RPG's since 1985, I resent the way that identity politics has polluted the artistic and creative world, including gaming.
No. You’re not a black guy in the OSR and I’m not a straight white old grognard Nobody else gets referred to as a color, just you and me. Yet I’ll bet your skin isn’t actually black just like mine isn’t actually white. We’re human beings created in the image of God, and even if you don’t believe that, we must be able to agree that we’re both human beings. No. You’re not a black guy and I’m not a white guy. We’re two men who enjoy sitting around a table pretending to be something we’re not for awhile, and we must refuse to allow anyone to rob us of that.
Laura Hickman born 1956, Jean Rabe born 1957 , Anne Gray McCready born 1960. Margaret Wise born 1948, Deborah Teramis Christian 1956, Kim Eastland born 1952, and many more! ALL WOMEN! ALL ROLEPLAYERS! ALL INFLUENTIAL ON TTRPGS! The idea that women didn't roleplay is a myth perpetrated by the media and movies. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_role-playing_game_professionals
All of the "older straight white grognards" I know are like me, we run open tables that welcome anyone who is not a jerk to the other players. From 1975 to the present all of my groups have included men and women, none of those groups have been all white and those groups have had gay people in nearly every group over the last 49 years. Biggest thing bringing changes to group composition, moving to a new city and starting a new group. My first group in college in 1975 was 50/50 M/F for the whole four years, very mixed group by any criteria you would want to pick. All of the over 65 (i.e. 15 or older in 1974) straight white grognards get really tired of being blamed for the actions of younger (under 60, i.e. not old) white non-grognards that are the ones doing the stuff that we are being blamed for. You want to find people who do the things you point out, if you are looking at people like me, you are looking in the wrong place.
( old man voice ) But why , if that's the case have you been unable to escape this fortress - of the Grognard classification or label to you personally? th-cam.com/video/XCLFhZjpyJI/w-d-xo.html
As a European I absolutely despise this Americanized shitstorm of drama and identity politics within the hobby. I play online, through roll20 mainly and almost every single game from the USA (which unfortunately are most of them), have either the "pronouns" things, LGBTQ+ stuff and things of that nature pushed through your throat. Why? I don't care about all that, why does it even matter? I have women in my game playing male characters and vice versa, I've had gay players too, it doesn't matter. What matters is the game and whether or not you have fun, and you can play anything, it's irrelevant what your skin color or gender is irl, in a TTRPG you can literally play anything. In their quest to eradicate racism or sexism, they literally encourage it. Why do I need to know your pronouns? I don't need to know your skin colour either. I just care about your character in the game. They say gender doesn't matter yet in every application or game advertisement I see it being REQUIRED to be provided.
The OSR has a bad reputation? I wonder why as it is not less inclusive regarding players than any other ttrpg system. The games are based on an older system and have another style than modern ttrpgs in being more focused on the adventure than the players characters in my opinion(It normally just takes some minutes to make an OSR char, while the character generation in modern systems takes a lot longer). People playing ttrpgs are the most inclusive bunch of people I can imagine. Completely on your page, Mr. Desborough.
Modern gamers and oldschool gamers don't hate each other. Vocal modern gamers and vocal oldschool gamers hate each other. Both sides are so aggressive towards one another that it spoils the OSR community for everyone else. If those vocal minorities could both learn from Daryl Davis that honey attracts more than vinegar, then we'd have a much healthier and accepting community. I find it so distasteful how much vinegar is spewed over topics that could be otherwise be discussed peacefully.
It's a good thing to gatekeepe against terminates and other destructive forces. These people do not want to game, do not like gamers, etc. They are there solely to destroy from within. It's imperative they be kept out.
I don't believe the stated assumption is true, but I'll answer the proposed question as if it were true anyway: You ignore them. Do you like playing OSR games? Great, go play OSR games with other people who enjoy playing OSR games and you feel you can be friends with. You don't like OSR games? Great, go do something you do enjoy with or without people you feel can be your friends. This isn't rocket surgery. I don't understand how this is even a question.
A risky video. Stepping into politics *is* a spiritual equivalent of stepping into shit :P Good points though. That being said, the question of "too many peeps in X are confined to one age group, one racial group, and one sexual preference group" _could_ be valid, were it actually a thing. Maybe I am missing something, but I've not had any issues with diversity in my RP groups, even when delving into OSR type games. The only gatekeeping I witnessed had more to do with maturity and behavior (and was, imho, justified).
"moral entrepreneurs" is such a great definition although it arguably gives too much credit. I would argue that relevant morality is fairly simple and not really up for debate. We figured it out based on the smooth running of groups and what works best in a community. However, the moral "pioneers" of the left stand by and push critical theory and really, that's a self defeating goal. You can't have a harmonious society when the wannabe moral arbiters subscribe to the idea that you can construct a morality that morphs with individual whims as well as being fair to the group. The philosophy tears itself apart by default(along with everything caught in it's power) Morality is simply a distillation of what works best for the group, it, if nothing else, is natural and evolves naturally. Which is the antithesis to the argument that we have to "reach in and tweak", because "otherwise we end up with dictators and slavery"...no, we learn these things over time and progressives are certainly not above dictatorship and slavery. Let's not pretend that the critical theory movement was there, parallel to slavery or hegemonies pushing back for hundreds of years... We can prove that their philosophy isn't anti slavery, given how willingly it's adherents minimise the practice if designated "oppressed peoples" engage in the practice. Everyone should realise that progressivism, is purely a popularity contest for fools and the evil, who want to seem moral. In fact, it's akin to an operating system, that demands regular updates otherwise the user is banned😂"Speak falsely, and enter"
Firstly, I want to say that obviously not only marginalized people play role-playing games, but introverted hobbies are a lot more welcoming than hostile peer groups clearly. Honestly, I think that in the past, socially marginalized was a much larger category. And due to perhaps age as well as a changing sociological landscape, we now have a place where no one gives a crap what game you play except other people who play games. There are a bunch of people who are legitimately still marginalized.The outspoken younger outcasts seem to be bothered by the idea that other people could be outcasts and not share their characteristics. Often, elders come from a time where you could be beat for being a nerd, or poor, or the wrong skin color, or not fluent in English, or the wrong gender expression, or the wrong sexuality.The conflict appears to be coming from the current strategy of the young marginalized to make celebrity out of their difference and to proactively shun anyone who isn't supporting their bid for control of what is fashionable. To reassert my point, a lot of us older people come from a time where the outcast table was just to the outcast table, and you were welcome on the condition that you didn't pick on anyone already sitting there. As such, it is straight poison to see that kind of talk. Stirring up witch hunts in an entertainment space just says that you are the kind of jerk who would have been bullying us all if you had been born with the combination of characteristics that puts you in the higher social position. Speaking of which, there are people whose perception of being marginalized is buffered by wealth and living amongst other well-off people, and they don't necessarily understand the necessity of solidarity with poor or misfits that don't share their major identity. Power struggles are always gross when they find their way into your hobby or past time. Exploring ethics of your existing or previous societies through an RPG or table game doesn't bother me in the least, but that should be an option, not a requirement. I guess it's the difference between playing Thirsty Sword Lesbians(no hate, I bet it's fun or funny) and shaming people for NOT playing thirsty lesbian martial character in their own game, or shaming you for not having a thirsty sword lesbian class in your game. To end this rant, ending the perceived tyranny of the social order with a different tyrant compromises any moral or ethical high ground you thought you held.
The first time I heard about LOTFP was from two guys I overheard talking about the author who they said moved to Scandinavia because he was an extreme racist. This took place in a vendor area at a small Michigan game convention. I knew nothing about LOTFP or it's creator's. I did a quick Google and found that these guys opinions didn't appear to be true. I can really see how this kind of posturing and teeth gnashing can get out of hand if all you are going on is someone else's unfounded opinion.
To flip the question "there are not enough non-old, non-white, non straight non-grognards in the OSR!" Whilst I disagree with this, knowing quite a few OSR authors and publishers who satisfy at least one of these categories (although I don't personally know of any author/publisher that satisfies all four since I don't inquire as the personal proclivities of people I don't know well), there is a simple solution to this problem. Have more young, non-white, non-straight people produce and play OSR stuff. There is no barrier to entry. No gatekeeping. The grognard stuff is more difficult, because popularly it presupposes a sense of nostalgia (it was better when the Emperor was in power!), and there are many people that play the OSR because they want the nostalgia as how they played as kids (and can actually get irritated if you suggest there are many different ways to play the game). That said, the only way to play improperly is not to have fun doing so. And they are obviously having fun. But ask three people what the OSR actually is and you will get seven different opinions. Personally I like to see it as a rediscovery and return to creativity rather than following the path of established settings and adventures, or even the information within the books. Back in day (I have a field marshal baton in my backpack too, especially since I came to D&D via wargaming) there was a diaspora of all sorts of different D&D games with weird and wild creative settings. This was the first era of fanzines and APAzines, and well before the Cult of Gygax or officialism (when The dragon was itself in reality just another fanzine). Which was one of the reasons I liked the OSR as a lot of people rediscovered they could do this themselves. Including the revival of fanzines. Which makes me happy. The more people creating interesting stuff then the more opportunity I have to steal it for my own use. [I mean borrow. Excuse me whilst I file the serial numbers off this module.] Above all else, have fun (and that goes double for the gamemasters!).
This kind of stuff is stupid. Who cares what demographic of people plays such and such a game? Just play the games you like with people you get along with and don't worry about whether or not people of some other race, sex, whatever other demographic also play them. The more the merrier if you ask me. Are people really such busybodies these days?
@PostmortemVideo not since the 1980s satanic panic - and yes, I was there - has comparable levels of stupidity been leveled at ttrpgs as a hobby. Sad to see it coming from the left, though. Those are supposed to be our people.
I think empty American Consumerism, increased social isolation / terminally online lifestyles, and economical powerlessness have ushered in a new type of boredom and meaningless living that can only have an end result of finding social fulfillment through the destruction of others. After all, consuming endless products isnt making anyone happy. Maybe getting patted in the back and praised by strangers when participating in an online mob's witch hunt, is the only real sense of meaning amd achievement for a generation lost in endless consumerism. Watching Netflix alone is so boring, so let's go cancel someone. It'll be fun if we do it together.
Well, I do not identify as CIS white male. I do happen to be a heterosexual male and sort of olive toned skinned. Yup, classical anarchist lefty here as well. I gotta give Victor Raymond a serious thrashing over this. Side note: Victor is from one of Phil Barker's game groups in EPT. The same Phil Barker who was posthumously cancelled for his questionable novels.
With all due respect to Daryl Davis, his is only one approach. And if it's working, great. Is it valid? Sure. But there are other methods of combating bigotry. No need to limit yourself to one. Multiple studies have shown that deplatforming works. It limits the reach and influence of extremists, preventing recruitment. Daryl Davis is like chemotherapy. Important, possibly lifesaving. But preventative measures are still important as well, and can even ensure that in many cases, chemotherapy isn't needed. I'm all for second chances. Had a few myself. But, having a potential cure does not invalidate or eliminate the need for protective and preventative measures.
Deplatforming doesn't really work very well, and also runs the risk of legitimising their paranoia and providing legitimacy. Then there's also the huge problem of people being deplatformed and labeled extremists when they're not those things - something that can radicalise people. Cutting people off from contrary viewpoints also leads to greater extremism by creating echo chambers. Silencing people also means you forget how to beat them in debate and argument. No, overall this fetish for silencing people is massively counterproductive, and has helped get us to where we are now. It's not good.
Every funnel in is a potential funnel out. There are studies into the slide to extremism in ideological echo chambers etc that show otherwise. I suppose it depends whether your litmus test is seeing these people or not. Richard Spencer, as an example, doubled and then doubled again his social media followings after the punch and moves to deplatform him. The Streisand Effect in full force. I think the idea that it 'works' is wishful thinking, frankly, and the state of the world - a natural experiment - would seem to back me up.
@@jsorryman Could you share one of these studies? I am curious about how ethical they were, or how much rigor went into them. The best laboratories I can think of for the mentioned techniques were Soviet bloc states and the effect there was not positive. Perhaps you mean social credit systems, which are also not clothing themselves in glory. I wrankle at the idea that all conservatives are bigots. That is not stipulated or proven, it is just stated - which doesn't make it so.
@@PostmortemVideo Richard Spencer has denounced white nationalism. Andrew Anglin is a fugitive. Tom Metzger died penniless and forgotten. I'd say deplatforming and consequences worked in their cases. And others. I agree that the witch hunt mentality is real and needs to be pushed back against, hard. Hell, I defended Goodman Games the other day from someone who was implying that they are racist. Which is ridiculous on the face of it. As far as "legitimizing" these extremists, I think classifying racism and bigotry as "contrary viewpoints" is legitimizing them. Nazism is not a valid political philosophy or position. Any more than ISIS' brand of Islam is. When it comes to "deplatforming fetishism," I think many people forget that this is not some new, radical idea. Deplatforming bigots used to be the default (as did taxing million- and billionaires). Major record labels didn't sign Skrewdriver. You couldn't walk into a local record store and buy their stuff. It was on the fringe. The internet has become the great equalizer when it comes to the dissemination of information and ideas, for good or for ill. But the erosion of this default state of not platforming bigotry has led directly to the mainstreaming of nazi talking points in American politics. I'm not advocating for the outlawing of legally protected speech, even if I find the speech in question odious. But there's nothing wrong with private enterprise taking a stand and refusing to platform or distribute such garbage. That's not censorship, it's discernment.
I know you qualified it, but you probably need new labels. Far left, Leftist, Classical Liberal, heck even Libertarian (given the Mises) mean very different things now (Conservative, by contrast means nothing now). The Overton Window has moved, I don't have a name for all my things anymore.
Immutable characteristics like race, age, orientation are no basis for criticism or expulsion from the hobby. Scott, you yourself are the demographic that the ideologues are howling against. Will you step aside from 5E or the new edition if your own immutable characteristics are perceived as a problem by these people? Most OSR fans have been participating in this space for decades and the Grognards were welcoming anyone as long as newer players took the time to learn the game and not be disruptive. Ideologues are welcome to dominating 5E and 6E, WotC is catering to them in the new ruleset and they’re welcome to it. If you’re happy with WotC enjoy yourself, but for the ideologues, don’t come to the OSR and demand changes.
@@SteveKavadas I am not demanding changes here - my entire point is that I think it is fascinating that Grim Jim thinks he is not an OSR Grognard (even though his content is honey to OSR Grognards like yourself)
@@JScottGaribay I have an appreciation for older games not exclusively D&D. I began with watching and playing Shadowrun and Vampire. I didn’t begin with D&D. I do enjoy Grim’s content because he will review and discuss any game or rule system that interests him. I am a late Gen X gamer and probably don’t qualify to be a proper Grognard. But you don’t have to be a Grognard to look at a game (I’m my case 3.5) have some fun and say what else is out there and appreciate other games or gaming philosophies.
Ah yes the same types of people who have tried to ruin videos games, TV shows, movies, comics and much more want to try to jump into OSR stuff aka people making things they like and putting it out to the world for people to try and enjoy. Gatekeep everything. I am only getting back into TTRPG stuff and all I want to do is to enjoy good stuff without the whole "modern audiences" bs, something that no one seems to want in pretty much anything.
*Stares, puffs on his cigarette in confusion* How the hell do you even kick anyone out of the OSR? I don't consider myself part of it but I did get a copy of Basic Fantasy for christmas and it's just red box DND with race and class and ascending AC. All of these games are essentially WotC's abandonware, to the point that Mr. Welch was able to use the Mystara logo on his fan reboot of Mystara because WotC let the trademark lapse. You can gatekeep your table but that's about it because these games are all essentially open source. Other than that, what the fuck are they gonna do? Build a wall around the discord server and make James Raggi and Alexander Macris pay for it?
The best OSR is played by people offline by those who ignore the fools on social media and avoid conventions. We just play the game as we always have. Right wing nutters didn't kill us off in the 80s so the Left wing nutters have no chance today. While they are talking, we are playing (though it is fun to watch the BrOSR play the heel and annoy some of the big mouths) 😁
I’m so glad there are brave folks out there like Jim Grimm to protect the rights and reputations of older straight white men. They really have had a tough run.
Thank you for reliably turning up to make the point that it's not racism or sexism these people are against, and that they're fine with the 'right kind' of racism and sexism.
Great video. Thank you. It is fascinating though that you are IMHO a quintessential OSR Grognard - like literally the template you could build other ones from to qualify as - but don't recognize yourself as OSR at all.
I didn't start with D&D, don't have the nostalgia for it, don't play a great deal of OSR games. My tastes are more towards the narrative-led but still RPG games.
You are a ridiculous shill Garibay. Everyone is still trying to figure out if you're a master troll or completely dense. I know where i stand on that discussion 🤣🤣🤣
@@PostmortemVideo Isn't your main thing DND Without Clothes (which seems like still DND)? I've never seen it but I think it is what you are most famous for - which would put to question that your tastes are toward more narrative RPGs. Also you go pretty hard at PBTA, which is the preeminent narrative RPG system today. And then your content is pretty complainy overall and very pro white male (all classic OSR Grognard). Just trying to track the pattern of how you think you aren't an OSR Grognard. Thank you for your patience with my supposition.
@@PostmortemVideo And if you check this very video topic - you will find other TH-cam videos on literally the same topic with very similar takes - delivered by bog-standard OSR Grognards.
@@PostmortemVideo Granted - there are two other prominent OSR Grognards covering the same topic with similar takes - yours is the only one of those that is engaging and well thought out. I guess that is different than bog-standard OSR Grognard fare.
Once upon a time liberals were very reasonable. Then the new wave demanded progress in all fronts no matter the cost and all that was must die and rot to feed their utopia. Ironically everything they want has become dystopian nightmare, and willfully want for it as long as some pos tells them they are arbiters of morality.
Do you mean an American "left" or a European "left" in this assessment? Gotta give it to the game of politics--even the seemingly simple concepts get completely muddled in bullshit :P
@@lemonZzzzs I have the disadvantage of actually having studied politics and history. America doesn't really have a left. European Left, ideologically more of an anarchist, but pragmatically more of a Nordic Socialist.
The old guys carried the torch to keep this hobby relevant and never discriminated if someone wanted to learn how to play. This new think of identity politics is a ball of shit that we don't want anything to do with.
Gaming has ALWAYS had too few people who weren't old white heterosexual guys (I vividly remember being in an uncomfortable "university" roleplaying game club whose primary actual membership was at least 10-20 years past college age, white-skinned and white-haired, and very, very fat and male), it's just now that we're more aware of how white, heterosexual guys have always used unsubtly coded racism, homophobia and misogyny, usually in the guise of "humor," to keep people who weren't already in that group out.
Old white guys are the vermin of the hobby.
Ladles and jellyspoons, the problem.
So now that people are more vocal about inclusiveness, those that never discriminated are suddenly turning their backs on these people? How does that make sense?
@@schemage2210 it’s quite the opposite. Back before Wokeism and types that use terms like biological essentialism when referring to a furkin imaginary race, we just played ttrpg’s and had fun. We were never not inclusive. The woke, unrepresentative, hysterical lynch mob appears and wants white straight males gone.
And the end result? Diversity hires that alter and ruin not only our hobby but every facet of entertainment. WOKEISM HAS RUINED D&D, Pathfinder, Savage Worlds. The list is endless.
@@schemage2210 It's not just the inclusiveness itself that is the problem. As far as I can remember, nobody I ever gamed with would have a problem with more diversity in players sitting at the table. The issue is that the people who are more vocal about inclusiveness are also often demanding such inclusion is written into the games that the old "grognards" still want to play. A lot of the games we play might have a world with a different culture to it that later generations of adults and kids find downright offensive. The couple fast examples I can think of is the ongoing debate around female space marines in the 40k universe, and fantasy games that are more heavily inspired by genuine Earth history might have women treated as second class citizens within some of their feudalistic kingdoms.
Man... I agree 100% with you.
This common point of view regarding inclusivity is broken.
They are bringing to the table subjects that are not related to the hobby. And weponize it in a political way with the intention to crush other points of view by descrimination.
That's a double standard or doublethinking. And it is dividing people. That's sad
Gaming as a hobby is better for having you in it, Grim. Your point of view, your insights, and your experience are a valuable resource for everyone to draw upon.
Ideologs who care more about their ideology then the game should always be gatekept.
Gatekeeping what you love is a Virtue.
@jeframdenkar that sounds like an ideological position to me!
@@schemage2210 You dont need an ideology to be interested in protecting something you love.
So ideology or not its important to gatekeep bad actor no matter their claims.
After you would never trust your dog to Michael Vick or your daughter with Jeffery Epstein no matter what they would claim would you when they shown time and again not to be trust worthy sorts.
@@jeframdenkar dude, you are literally giving the definition of ideology. This is what google has to say on the matter:
"A set of doctrines or beliefs that are shared by the members of a social group or that form the basis of a political, economic, or other system. "
But hey, you don't have an ideology. Silly me.
@@schemage2210 Again you don't need to have an ideological reason to protect something you love from a hostile ideology.
Especially as the hostile ideology being gatekept demands people and things be changed to fit their world view.
I honestly can't comprehend the focus of identity politics (on both sides) on such immutable things as race, sexuality and age.
People are way more than that, and pointing the finger at things we can not change does nothing but divide.
I'm a new artist in the rpg niche, and i've noticed that the OSR types are very accommodating and accepting. They've never noticed my sex or politics, in fact, they've not seemed to care nor ever even ask. I think I agree completely with you, Grim.
Good luck on your art journey, I often post open calls for artists.
i'll hear ya, jason king II : ) @@PostmortemVideo
Yes. These people preach inclusiveness while simultaneously condemning people for their race, sexual orientation and age.
And I don't think they can see how absurd that is.
Have a care Grim, making this much sense can get you cancelled.
What, again?
@@PostmortemVideo Yup! The way it often goes is that after they're done canceling you they'll go charging off after whatever the freshest offense of the present is. So it's possible to be cancelled more than once if you do something else that puts you back in the present spotlight. You might grow your channel through pure "hate watching" that way. Hey, wait a minute...
speaking as an old, white, straight grognard (who like you isn't strictly either an OSR guy nor a Storyelling-only guy, though I did start back in the days of the three little booklets), the ageism goes back a few years; I recall attending a panel at Pax West where one panelist repeatedly uttered the phrase 'waiting for the old people to die off' unironically (I only wish I'd had the presence of mind to stand up and yell "I'm RIGHT HERE!"). Throwing me as a conservative into the mix, I agree with what you've said here; while we could argue about politics for sure, I bet we'd have a blast if we sat down to roll dice together.
"there are too many"...... the question I would ask them is: How many is not too many? What is the allowable number of straight white grognards in the hobby? And also what should be done about the excess? I dunno about them, but how I run my table doesn't include any kind of Purity Check, come to have fun and not be a dickhead, that's about it.
Roll a D20!
@@MagnificentDevil I agree, was more of a rhetorical question.
I find so many of those who preach inclusivity shouting, "Ok Boomer!" without the self-awareness or understanding that that term is ageist and fundamentally counter to their alleged belief system.
I find it hard to understand how is this even a thing? You don’t even have three to half a dozen languages to learn to find a group or event compared to continental Europe. Back in the days I joined RP community here in Eastern Europe, TTRPGs spare for WoD with glamgoth chicks and drama were for nerds and dorks and wargame kids mostly, while LARPs were for theatre kids pushing into their twenties and older or fighting enjoyers in the summer and in winter most of them migrated to play-by-text on forums and IIRC. The only loons who hated any particular demographic could be totally socially inept creeps of both sexes who couldn’t comprehend how you go and pilfer romantic interest in other medium events or fests or chatrooms because they couldn’t spell or refrain from acting weird when drunk. Roleplaying was always the most inviting hobby to autistic individuals and queer folk and a lot of stuff not tolerated almost anywhere in public back in nineties was allowed in this subculture and you didn’t have to suffer punk baptism or convincingly lie that you’re a metal head to join it. I miss the times RP was underground and there were subcultures instead of hype and mainstream and rabid online cliques. You had to socialize at a concert or something to start a holy war, and then everybody just drank their grievances off and found a common ground by the end of the night dropping off lightweights and other casualties.
it's amazing to me how much time people spend worrying over how other people's games are run.
Suggestion for a new nom-de-plume; Dusty Hatte.
And here i thought that things were going to settle down for a couple more days.
Niet!
Exactly, discriminating against someone based on age, sex, or race makes you a bigot. Someone stating that everyone of race x, sex y, and age z is a problem to be eliminated makes them a truly awful person.
Doesn't matter what game you play, some a$$hat is going to cause trouble because they're broken somehow. The most popular games are statistically more likely to have the biggest group of troublesome elements. I'm assuming that is why the most popular games, like CoC and D&D5 have the most sanitization and social controls built in.
I participated in a game or two with some of the woke crowd. Honestly, it was really boring. Nothing happened and everything was tame and every toon was a self insert. It was just lame. They where also really fucking mean. Like meaner then me, and I'm a certified asshole.
Great video. I enjoyed it.
i do find it funny how in the 80s, where we were supposedly the worst ever in TTRPGS and other games, we had the largest acceptance for anyone to join. yes horny young teenage boys acted like young teenage boys. but as soon as a young lady joined they usually fell right in line. that whole Stero type of nerds was there for a reason. we welcomed anyone who wanted to join and actually put effort into playing. in a time when it was not cool or popular, you did not block a person from playing. were there bad actors in the hobby? sure. but nothing like today.
no one cared if you played a character of the opposite sex. no one cared what subrace your character was. we wanted to play and have fun. we slayed monsters, became heroes or villians depending on the campaign. and cheered for each other's natural twenties. we told epic stories and no one cared about a persons sexuality or how they dressed. (you had to take showers, we cared about the smell.) what we cared about was how the person acted. if you were an asshat who tried to break the game then you had to go. but if you were there to have a good time. chiped in for the pizza and snacks, you were accepted in with no issues.
I am now at the gate of 50. And I gate keep. not the hobby itself. but those i play with. I am here to play a game and have fun. throw my dice, laugh at the failures. cheer for the success of both my fellow players as well as my own. And we do not want or need the idealogues in our games making it meserible for us while we play. this is what we do to escape all that crap that seems to want to divide and break society.
Well said!
These folks can fucking kick rocks with that whole title. I'm absolutely over taking the high ground with these knobs.
I really don't understand how people of my generation and younger can't understand how their bullying behavior is exactly what they claim other folks do. I mean if I explained that I like Gor as a fantasy world then I would get ousted from certain sectors of the hobby. Likewise I don't see how making dark elements in gaming tantamount to heresy. Personally I did experience some of the echoes of the satanic panic and frankly it turned me off from moral busy bodies who think everything that isn't christian (re: progressive) is demonic (re: far right). Anyway I hope this gets put into a comment video. lel
Most probably don't think it through, so they don't notice that they're bullying; they're just riding the high of self-empowerment through it, coupled with the sense of belonging if doing so as part of a mob.
Some probably _do_ realize it, but I'd imagine for most of those, the condemnation of other bullies is just a political tactic, as well as an attempt at painting a more virtuous façade of themselves to their audience and followers.
You know there seems to be a lot of us purple unicorns about
I absolutely hate these ‘the OSR needs to be fixed’ takes. They’re no different then the WH40K community ‘needs to be fixed’ crowd.
I love the take because it confuses the fact anyone can and did make the OSR up as a thing and thinks its just a bunch of white guys who just had the money
It's just the ever creeping anti-white agenda, for one it shouldn't be a problem if there is a majority of white people, or white males doing a hobby however it goes even further than that they actually want to construct or deconstruct what is going. It's racist engineering
Vee must answer ze old white grognard question.
Nice, Grim Jim!!! Truth bombs thrown!
That's something i expected from 5th ed. Three years ago.
Well said Mr. Vandemar... I will add that these people who are flapping there arms so furiously will be gone from the hobby soon just because they have burned their own neighborhood down. In the old days this was the guy that was just at the table to screw with everyone else and had no respect for the game or those around him. This is also the guy that was not invited back for a second round. So as gamers who love the game we have to say no to this. In many ways this is a great analog of society. If you are poison you are excluded from the fun zone .
They can say that they don't want me in their game but the truth is I don't care or want to be in their game. Its really simple... if you are an A-hole to me we don't game together. So today if someone says to me you can't exclude me from the hobby I will say you are right and I'm not trying to exclude you from the hobby BUT if you say you can't exclude me from your game then I will say to you, WRONG! You are wrong dear Sir, Madam, child... if you are an A-Hole you are not in my game or in my friend group period.
A-Hole has no color, race, sexual preference or any other distinction you could hang your complaint on. So I say Be firm and polite as you can be, and, just base your decision on the PERSON and what they bring to YOUR TABLE. That's what the arm flapping is supposed to be about in the first place isn't it?
Croup and Vandemar, the Old Firm, obstacles obliterated, nuisances eradicated, bothersome limbs removed and tutelary dentistry undertaken.
Thank you for your service.
Good video and more importantly I appreciate the inclusion of the magpie at the end.
We never cared about politics, race , religion. Just as long as you could help make a gaming night fun.
It's still listed on page 2. Near the bottom.
I think it's really important to distinguish having beef with others as gamers at the table as opposed to away from the table.
It's definitely the case, for example, that a person someone is friends with can be subpar to play a TTRPG with, due to their behavior at the table (i.e. they're unable to rein in a confrontational attitude with the GM or other players and can't get with the program) or due to incompatibilities in gaming style (i.e. they play to be "the best PC" and treat the other PCs like stepping stones).
None of these is inherently tied to race, sexual orientation, age, sex, or gender. With enough exposure to gaming with others, anyone whose head is not up their ass will realize this.
If you look at the videos of the last Gen Con, and the crowds on the lines or exiting the main venues, you will see the super majority of the demographic.
The TTRPG hobby in the USA is between 80 - 85% male. Of that group, between 80 - 85% are caucasian. Most of those appear to be over 30.
To say that there are too many of this demographic is like saying there are too many people in this hobby. It is largely a white male hobby, those complaining about that need to get over it or move on.
I'd be wary of conventions as being representative, but that is a very powerful clip.
Speaking as a white straight man, over 50, who's been playing RPG's since 1985, I resent the way that identity politics has polluted the artistic and creative world, including gaming.
As far as I know, yes.
Nope , I'm a black guy in the OSR , you guys deserve a seat as much as anyone
No. You’re not a black guy in the OSR and I’m not a straight white old grognard Nobody else gets referred to as a color, just you and me. Yet I’ll bet your skin isn’t actually black just like mine isn’t actually white. We’re human beings created in the image of God, and even if you don’t believe that, we must be able to agree that we’re both human beings.
No. You’re not a black guy and I’m not a white guy. We’re two men who enjoy sitting around a table pretending to be something we’re not for awhile, and we must refuse to allow anyone to rob us of that.
Laura Hickman born 1956, Jean Rabe born 1957 , Anne Gray McCready born 1960. Margaret Wise born 1948, Deborah Teramis Christian 1956, Kim Eastland born 1952, and many more! ALL WOMEN! ALL ROLEPLAYERS! ALL INFLUENTIAL ON TTRPGS! The idea that women didn't roleplay is a myth perpetrated by the media and movies. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_role-playing_game_professionals
All of the "older straight white grognards" I know are like me, we run open tables that welcome anyone who is not a jerk to the other players. From 1975 to the present all of my groups have included men and women, none of those groups have been all white and those groups have had gay people in nearly every group over the last 49 years. Biggest thing bringing changes to group composition, moving to a new city and starting a new group. My first group in college in 1975 was 50/50 M/F for the whole four years, very mixed group by any criteria you would want to pick. All of the over 65 (i.e. 15 or older in 1974) straight white grognards get really tired of being blamed for the actions of younger (under 60, i.e. not old) white non-grognards that are the ones doing the stuff that we are being blamed for. You want to find people who do the things you point out, if you are looking at people like me, you are looking in the wrong place.
( old man voice ) But why , if that's the case have you been unable to escape this fortress - of the Grognard classification or label to you personally?
th-cam.com/video/XCLFhZjpyJI/w-d-xo.html
I honestly have no idea.
This makes sense now... Victor and Tanya Depase.
Victor is a "bisexual indian demon summoner".
Check reply for link if it works, Grim.
Its nice to see you trying to put sense to sheeples 😂😂 your truly love human 😁
As a European I absolutely despise this Americanized shitstorm of drama and identity politics within the hobby.
I play online, through roll20 mainly and almost every single game from the USA (which unfortunately are most of them), have either the "pronouns" things, LGBTQ+ stuff and things of that nature pushed through your throat.
Why? I don't care about all that, why does it even matter? I have women in my game playing male characters and vice versa, I've had gay players too, it doesn't matter. What matters is the game and whether or not you have fun, and you can play anything, it's irrelevant what your skin color or gender is irl, in a TTRPG you can literally play anything.
In their quest to eradicate racism or sexism, they literally encourage it. Why do I need to know your pronouns? I don't need to know your skin colour either. I just care about your character in the game.
They say gender doesn't matter yet in every application or game advertisement I see it being REQUIRED to be provided.
The OSR has a bad reputation? I wonder why as it is not less inclusive regarding players than any other ttrpg system. The games are based on an older system and have another style than modern ttrpgs in being more focused on the adventure than the players characters in my opinion(It normally just takes some minutes to make an OSR char, while the character generation in modern systems takes a lot longer). People playing ttrpgs are the most inclusive bunch of people I can imagine.
Completely on your page, Mr. Desborough.
Modern gamers and oldschool gamers don't hate each other.
Vocal modern gamers and vocal oldschool gamers hate each other.
Both sides are so aggressive towards one another that it spoils the OSR community for everyone else.
If those vocal minorities could both learn from Daryl Davis that honey attracts more than vinegar, then we'd have a much healthier and accepting community.
I find it so distasteful how much vinegar is spewed over topics that could be otherwise be discussed peacefully.
It's a good thing to gatekeepe against terminates and other destructive forces. These people do not want to game, do not like gamers, etc. They are there solely to destroy from within. It's imperative they be kept out.
I agree, it's why i left the OSR. I'll take my dirty straight white grognard dollars to many other games :) Savage Worlds Wightchester!
Newsflash! Pinnacle hates your demographic
I don't believe the stated assumption is true, but I'll answer the proposed question as if it were true anyway: You ignore them. Do you like playing OSR games? Great, go play OSR games with other people who enjoy playing OSR games and you feel you can be friends with. You don't like OSR games? Great, go do something you do enjoy with or without people you feel can be your friends. This isn't rocket surgery. I don't understand how this is even a question.
One might as well ask how to get all the fruits outta gaming as they have lowered the bar for storytelling to an all time nadir...
Amen brother. Why is it so difficult? Do your thing. Don't be a dick. Rules to live by.
A risky video. Stepping into politics *is* a spiritual equivalent of stepping into shit :P Good points though.
That being said, the question of "too many peeps in X are confined to one age group, one racial group, and one sexual preference group" _could_ be valid, were it actually a thing. Maybe I am missing something, but I've not had any issues with diversity in my RP groups, even when delving into OSR type games. The only gatekeeping I witnessed had more to do with maturity and behavior (and was, imho, justified).
well said
Well said, sir.
"moral entrepreneurs" is such a great definition although it arguably gives too much credit.
I would argue that relevant morality is fairly simple and not really up for debate. We figured it out based on the smooth running of groups and what works best in a community.
However, the moral "pioneers" of the left stand by and push critical theory and really, that's a self defeating goal.
You can't have a harmonious society when the wannabe moral arbiters subscribe to the idea that you can construct a morality that morphs with individual whims as well as being fair to the group.
The philosophy tears itself apart by default(along with everything caught in it's power)
Morality is simply a distillation of what works best for the group, it, if nothing else, is natural and evolves naturally.
Which is the antithesis to the argument that we have to "reach in and tweak", because "otherwise we end up with dictators and slavery"...no, we learn these things over time and progressives are certainly not above dictatorship and slavery.
Let's not pretend that the critical theory movement was there, parallel to slavery or hegemonies pushing back for hundreds of years...
We can prove that their philosophy isn't anti slavery, given how willingly it's adherents minimise the practice if designated "oppressed peoples" engage in the practice.
Everyone should realise that progressivism, is purely a popularity contest for fools and the evil, who want to seem moral.
In fact, it's akin to an operating system, that demands regular updates otherwise the user is banned😂"Speak falsely, and enter"
What is grognard?
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/grognard
A grumbling old soldier, in games, an older gamer who prefers older ways.
Firstly, I want to say that obviously not only marginalized people play role-playing games, but introverted hobbies are a lot more welcoming than hostile peer groups clearly.
Honestly, I think that in the past, socially marginalized was a much larger category. And due to perhaps age as well as a changing sociological landscape, we now have a place where no one gives a crap what game you play except other people who play games. There are a bunch of people who are legitimately still marginalized.The outspoken younger outcasts seem to be bothered by the idea that other people could be outcasts and not share their characteristics.
Often, elders come from a time where you could be beat for being a nerd, or poor, or the wrong skin color, or not fluent in English, or the wrong gender expression, or the wrong sexuality.The conflict appears to be coming from the current strategy of the young marginalized to make celebrity out of their difference and to proactively shun anyone who isn't supporting their bid for control of what is fashionable.
To reassert my point, a lot of us older people come from a time where the outcast table was just to the outcast table, and you were welcome on the condition that you didn't pick on anyone already sitting there. As such, it is straight poison to see that kind of talk. Stirring up witch hunts in an entertainment space just says that you are the kind of jerk who would have been bullying us all if you had been born with the combination of characteristics that puts you in the higher social position.
Speaking of which, there are people whose perception of being marginalized is buffered by wealth and living amongst other well-off people, and they don't necessarily understand the necessity of solidarity with poor or misfits that don't share their major identity.
Power struggles are always gross when they find their way into your hobby or past time. Exploring ethics of your existing or previous societies through an RPG or table game doesn't bother me in the least, but that should be an option, not a requirement.
I guess it's the difference between playing Thirsty Sword Lesbians(no hate, I bet it's fun or funny) and shaming people for NOT playing thirsty lesbian martial character in their own game, or shaming you for not having a thirsty sword lesbian class in your game.
To end this rant, ending the perceived tyranny of the social order with a different tyrant compromises any moral or ethical high ground you thought you held.
The first time I heard about LOTFP was from two guys I overheard talking about the author who they said moved to Scandinavia because he was an extreme racist. This took place in a vendor area at a small Michigan game convention.
I knew nothing about LOTFP or it's creator's.
I did a quick Google and found that these guys opinions didn't appear to be true.
I can really see how this kind of posturing and teeth gnashing can get out of hand if all you are going on is someone else's unfounded opinion.
Sounds like they got Jim mixed up with Varg.
@PostmortemVideo
VARG aka Count Grishnackh I know has his own rpg. Is it OSR?
I'd say it is, yes, but he's persona non-grata even in OSR circles.
To flip the question "there are not enough non-old, non-white, non straight non-grognards in the OSR!" Whilst I disagree with this, knowing quite a few OSR authors and publishers who satisfy at least one of these categories (although I don't personally know of any author/publisher that satisfies all four since I don't inquire as the personal proclivities of people I don't know well), there is a simple solution to this problem. Have more young, non-white, non-straight people produce and play OSR stuff. There is no barrier to entry. No gatekeeping. The grognard stuff is more difficult, because popularly it presupposes a sense of nostalgia (it was better when the Emperor was in power!), and there are many people that play the OSR because they want the nostalgia as how they played as kids (and can actually get irritated if you suggest there are many different ways to play the game). That said, the only way to play improperly is not to have fun doing so. And they are obviously having fun.
But ask three people what the OSR actually is and you will get seven different opinions. Personally I like to see it as a rediscovery and return to creativity rather than following the path of established settings and adventures, or even the information within the books. Back in day (I have a field marshal baton in my backpack too, especially since I came to D&D via wargaming) there was a diaspora of all sorts of different D&D games with weird and wild creative settings. This was the first era of fanzines and APAzines, and well before the Cult of Gygax or officialism (when The dragon was itself in reality just another fanzine). Which was one of the reasons I liked the OSR as a lot of people rediscovered they could do this themselves. Including the revival of fanzines. Which makes me happy. The more people creating interesting stuff then the more opportunity I have to steal it for my own use. [I mean borrow. Excuse me whilst I file the serial numbers off this module.]
Above all else, have fun (and that goes double for the gamemasters!).
This kind of stuff is stupid. Who cares what demographic of people plays such and such a game? Just play the games you like with people you get along with and don't worry about whether or not people of some other race, sex, whatever other demographic also play them. The more the merrier if you ask me. Are people really such busybodies these days?
Yes they are, demonisation is rampant, as is polarisation.
@PostmortemVideo not since the 1980s satanic panic - and yes, I was there - has comparable levels of stupidity been leveled at ttrpgs as a hobby. Sad to see it coming from the left, though. Those are supposed to be our people.
I think empty American Consumerism, increased social isolation / terminally online lifestyles, and economical powerlessness have ushered in a new type of boredom and meaningless living that can only have an end result of finding social fulfillment through the destruction of others.
After all, consuming endless products isnt making anyone happy. Maybe getting patted in the back and praised by strangers when participating in an online mob's witch hunt, is the only real sense of meaning amd achievement for a generation lost in endless consumerism.
Watching Netflix alone is so boring, so let's go cancel someone. It'll be fun if we do it together.
Well, I do not identify as CIS white male. I do happen to be a heterosexual male and sort of olive toned skinned.
Yup, classical anarchist lefty here as well.
I gotta give Victor Raymond a serious thrashing over this.
Side note: Victor is from one of Phil Barker's game groups in EPT. The same Phil Barker who was posthumously cancelled for his questionable novels.
Be Proud to be problematic !!!!
"The old school left" hell yeah comrade!
With all due respect to Daryl Davis, his is only one approach. And if it's working, great. Is it valid? Sure. But there are other methods of combating bigotry. No need to limit yourself to one. Multiple studies have shown that deplatforming works. It limits the reach and influence of extremists, preventing recruitment. Daryl Davis is like chemotherapy. Important, possibly lifesaving. But preventative measures are still important as well, and can even ensure that in many cases, chemotherapy isn't needed.
I'm all for second chances. Had a few myself. But, having a potential cure does not invalidate or eliminate the need for protective and preventative measures.
Deplatforming doesn't really work very well, and also runs the risk of legitimising their paranoia and providing legitimacy. Then there's also the huge problem of people being deplatformed and labeled extremists when they're not those things - something that can radicalise people. Cutting people off from contrary viewpoints also leads to greater extremism by creating echo chambers. Silencing people also means you forget how to beat them in debate and argument.
No, overall this fetish for silencing people is massively counterproductive, and has helped get us to where we are now. It's not good.
Studies show otherwise. Sure, deplatforming tends to calcify the beliefs of those targeted by it, but let's be honest, that's a life they chose.
Every funnel in is a potential funnel out. There are studies into the slide to extremism in ideological echo chambers etc that show otherwise. I suppose it depends whether your litmus test is seeing these people or not. Richard Spencer, as an example, doubled and then doubled again his social media followings after the punch and moves to deplatform him. The Streisand Effect in full force. I think the idea that it 'works' is wishful thinking, frankly, and the state of the world - a natural experiment - would seem to back me up.
@@jsorryman Could you share one of these studies? I am curious about how ethical they were, or how much rigor went into them. The best laboratories I can think of for the mentioned techniques were Soviet bloc states and the effect there was not positive. Perhaps you mean social credit systems, which are also not clothing themselves in glory.
I wrankle at the idea that all conservatives are bigots. That is not stipulated or proven, it is just stated - which doesn't make it so.
@@PostmortemVideo Richard Spencer has denounced white nationalism. Andrew Anglin is a fugitive. Tom Metzger died penniless and forgotten. I'd say deplatforming and consequences worked in their cases. And others. I agree that the witch hunt mentality is real and needs to be pushed back against, hard. Hell, I defended Goodman Games the other day from someone who was implying that they are racist. Which is ridiculous on the face of it.
As far as "legitimizing" these extremists, I think classifying racism and bigotry as "contrary viewpoints" is legitimizing them. Nazism is not a valid political philosophy or position. Any more than ISIS' brand of Islam is.
When it comes to "deplatforming fetishism," I think many people forget that this is not some new, radical idea. Deplatforming bigots used to be the default (as did taxing million- and billionaires). Major record labels didn't sign Skrewdriver. You couldn't walk into a local record store and buy their stuff. It was on the fringe. The internet has become the great equalizer when it comes to the dissemination of information and ideas, for good or for ill. But the erosion of this default state of not platforming bigotry has led directly to the mainstreaming of nazi talking points in American politics. I'm not advocating for the outlawing of legally protected speech, even if I find the speech in question odious. But there's nothing wrong with private enterprise taking a stand and refusing to platform or distribute such garbage. That's not censorship, it's discernment.
Tolerant progressives like RPGnet.
I know you qualified it, but you probably need new labels. Far left, Leftist, Classical Liberal, heck even Libertarian (given the Mises) mean very different things now (Conservative, by contrast means nothing now). The Overton Window has moved, I don't have a name for all my things anymore.
Thank you for the video. IMHO you check every single box to qualify as an OSR Grognard.
Immutable characteristics like race, age, orientation are no basis for criticism or expulsion from the hobby. Scott, you yourself are the demographic that the ideologues are howling against. Will you step aside from 5E or the new edition if your own immutable characteristics are perceived as a problem by these people?
Most OSR fans have been participating in this space for decades and the Grognards were welcoming anyone as long as newer players took the time to learn the game and not be disruptive.
Ideologues are welcome to dominating 5E and 6E, WotC is catering to them in the new ruleset and they’re welcome to it. If you’re happy with WotC enjoy yourself, but for the ideologues, don’t come to the OSR and demand changes.
@@SteveKavadas I am Mattaponi Indian and Basque.
@@SteveKavadas I am not demanding changes here - my entire point is that I think it is fascinating that Grim Jim thinks he is not an OSR Grognard (even though his content is honey to OSR Grognards like yourself)
@@JScottGaribay I have an appreciation for older games not exclusively D&D. I began with watching and playing Shadowrun and Vampire. I didn’t begin with D&D. I do enjoy Grim’s content because he will review and discuss any game or rule system that interests him. I am a late Gen X gamer and probably don’t qualify to be a proper Grognard. But you don’t have to be a Grognard to look at a game (I’m my case 3.5) have some fun and say what else is out there and appreciate other games or gaming philosophies.
@@SteveKavadas playing DND 3.5 is classic OSR grognard
Ah yes the same types of people who have tried to ruin videos games, TV shows, movies, comics and much more want to try to jump into OSR stuff aka people making things they like and putting it out to the world for people to try and enjoy. Gatekeep everything. I am only getting back into TTRPG stuff and all I want to do is to enjoy good stuff without the whole "modern audiences" bs, something that no one seems to want in pretty much anything.
*Stares, puffs on his cigarette in confusion* How the hell do you even kick anyone out of the OSR? I don't consider myself part of it but I did get a copy of Basic Fantasy for christmas and it's just red box DND with race and class and ascending AC. All of these games are essentially WotC's abandonware, to the point that Mr. Welch was able to use the Mystara logo on his fan reboot of Mystara because WotC let the trademark lapse.
You can gatekeep your table but that's about it because these games are all essentially open source. Other than that, what the fuck are they gonna do? Build a wall around the discord server and make James Raggi and Alexander Macris pay for it?
The best OSR is played by people offline by those who ignore the fools on social media and avoid conventions.
We just play the game as we always have.
Right wing nutters didn't kill us off in the 80s so the Left wing nutters have no chance today.
While they are talking, we are playing (though it is fun to watch the BrOSR play the heel and annoy some of the big mouths) 😁
ugh, don't turn TTRPG community into this Jim.
I don't think it's me doing it.
I’m so glad there are brave folks out there like Jim Grimm to protect the rights and reputations of older straight white men. They really have had a tough run.
Thank you for reliably turning up to make the point that it's not racism or sexism these people are against, and that they're fine with the 'right kind' of racism and sexism.
Great video. Thank you. It is fascinating though that you are IMHO a quintessential OSR Grognard - like literally the template you could build other ones from to qualify as - but don't recognize yourself as OSR at all.
I didn't start with D&D, don't have the nostalgia for it, don't play a great deal of OSR games. My tastes are more towards the narrative-led but still RPG games.
You are a ridiculous shill Garibay. Everyone is still trying to figure out if you're a master troll or completely dense. I know where i stand on that discussion 🤣🤣🤣
@@PostmortemVideo Isn't your main thing DND Without Clothes (which seems like still DND)? I've never seen it but I think it is what you are most famous for - which would put to question that your tastes are toward more narrative RPGs. Also you go pretty hard at PBTA, which is the preeminent narrative RPG system today. And then your content is pretty complainy overall and very pro white male (all classic OSR Grognard). Just trying to track the pattern of how you think you aren't an OSR Grognard. Thank you for your patience with my supposition.
@@PostmortemVideo And if you check this very video topic - you will find other TH-cam videos on literally the same topic with very similar takes - delivered by bog-standard OSR Grognards.
@@PostmortemVideo Granted - there are two other prominent OSR Grognards covering the same topic with similar takes - yours is the only one of those that is engaging and well thought out. I guess that is different than bog-standard OSR Grognard fare.
Very Racist Question 🔥
Lefty meh
You keep calling yourself "far left" ... Yer not, in fact you come off as quite Conservative of the Classically Liberal ideals, prety Rightwing tbh...
Once upon a time liberals were very reasonable. Then the new wave demanded progress in all fronts no matter the cost and all that was must die and rot to feed their utopia. Ironically everything they want has become dystopian nightmare, and willfully want for it as long as some pos tells them they are arbiters of morality.
Because he isn't a neoliberal or distortion of an activist, he isn't left?
On the political compass (and similar tests) I am almost all the way in the bottom left-hand corner.
Do you mean an American "left" or a European "left" in this assessment? Gotta give it to the game of politics--even the seemingly simple concepts get completely muddled in bullshit :P
@@lemonZzzzs I have the disadvantage of actually having studied politics and history. America doesn't really have a left. European Left, ideologically more of an anarchist, but pragmatically more of a Nordic Socialist.