I watched the conversation you had with indestructoboy yesterday and I actually watched it all. I don't do that when it is a "debate" or blazing argument or just arm-crossed meep-meep meep. Watching two people working within what they have in common to discuss the pros and cons of a really very small part of the hobby was a genuine breath of fresh air. Good on both of you for making the effort. On safety tools, I have been playing rpgs a long time, and safety tools are a recent thing, and I have seen them invoked at tables at shops and online many times, but I have never seen them deployed. No-one has ever stopped a game because they were triggered. Not saying it never happens, I have just never seen it. Generally, when people sit down to play, they know more or less what might happen (keyword: might). Anecdotally, I do recall when I was in middle school and we played at the home of a DM who was in highschool. We went for two sessions, just two, because the guy was introducing a lot of butt stuff. There were orcs who wore armour but their butts were showing, there was an npc who touched the butt of one of my friends' characters and there was a worm that crawled up another PC's butt. There was also a lot of shit in the dungeon with treasure in it, and we were alerted to one encounter because we heard the monster farting. We were not homophobes, but that was just more butt than we were looking for in our game of D&D, so we stopped going. Leaving the table for a moment or just leaving it for good is still the best safety tool to my mind.
Algorithm aside, you also need two parties who are willing, and adult enough to have such a discourse. That might well be the stumblibg block.... Progress, however.
I just wrote how you're the most reasonable-seeming person I've seen on TH-cam and now here you are saying you're not...? You know, I'm not used to receiving compliments at work so I know how it feels, but *I think it's about time you allowed yourself to*. You've done some good work there, man.
You have been on the receiving end of this sort of thing before, so I guess you reacted out of routine. The current Zeitgeists and Online Culture are definitely part of the reason why responses happened the way they did. Other than this, consider this a significant success. Nowadays its not often things end up with dialogue between parties that opens the door to both sides actually listening and "maybe" learning from one another openly. Sorry flame war lovers.. your not going to get your daily drama fix here, Grim's too "aggressively reasonable" for that.
There is nothing wrong with being cordial and having conversations without rancor. You are right the idea that people cannot tell fantasy from reality has always been there, in 1605 Don Quixote lost his mind from reading romantic tales of knights, I see this as a critique on this idea by Cervantes. From Pat Pulling and Tipper Gore, to Jack Thompson and Bill O'Reilly it's all nonsense. I'm someone who can get a little too wrapped up in my hobbies, cosplaying as MacArthur and staying in character during a 12 hour wargame for instance, but even I understand its all just for fun. If I can get this then I believe anyone can.
It was a good listen. I'm still not a fan of his. But I'll respect his decision to take it on the chin, especially when his hypocrisy of guilt by association got exposed roughly halfway through.
Yeah, Ib seems to have genuinely let the mask slip mid-discussion and started saying what he feels instead of playing to the camera. Like admitting that Ginny-D's safety tools are useless junk... and admitting that this stunt was not about actually trying to do the right thing.
@@marhawkman303 it was about simping for a girl that is the darling of the modern tourists in the hobby. Don't get me wrong, I've only been involved for 3 years, but you can check my stuff. I don't have the hubris to pretend to be anyone of authority to give tips. Only insights. Only really useful for fellow noobies. IB's actions have smelled like "I hope she sees this, brah" for quite a bit. Going after dudes that didn't have anything to do with the Twitter nonsense was also in pretty bad taste. Like, yeah, Max is Max, and him having an Asian wife doesn't make him an authority on what is or ain't offensive. BUT, it's Max's right to say and do whatever he wants on his channel as long as it doesn't harm someone. I get Locker Room talk is being shamed in today's culture, but guys talk like that all the time and White Knighting is a bad look for someone who most likely doesn't even know you exist.
@@kentuckyrex I kinda suspect Ib isn't actually simping like that. I think it's more that he's in this financially as a cross-promotion gig. If true, the best course of action is to consign Ib to irrelevance.
Henry Rollins once said "Of all the politicians, preachers, and housewives we were up against, we never expected the biggest critics to be our fans. God forbid we played a song that was longer than 30 seconds and they'd all shout 'What are ya playin? Freebird?'". I've recognized it, and tried to describe it as it pertains to RPG's without success. But you articulated this reasoning in the best way possible in the vid with Indestructoboy when describing HOW the Satanic Panic was very real. Sadly, I also agree with the idea that everyone is becoming more extreme in their bubbles... Ironically, it's the face to face interactions (Much like tabletop gaming) that brings reason to either side. It puts a face to the arguments, and like a funeral reminds us that we are all on the same side in the end. I am normally a pessimist, but it was like a lex friedman or joe rogan podcast that gave me a little hope that this trend *might* continue, and that someday gamers would put aside their politics/beliefs when they sit down at a table to play a game. Kudos to you & Indestructoboy for doing that video. That's way off the path of the 'easy button' solution that everyone else chooses at face value, and for you both, doesn't meet the TH-cam Algorithm.
I do want to add though. In 'Secrets of Blackmoor' there is some discussion about how wargamers showed up to Arneson's game and after taking one look at it and realizing "Wait... We play individual characters and delve into a dungeon in a fantasy setting? This isn't wargaming, so yeah I am out". Obviously we remember the players who stayed and played (mostly) while forgetting the ones who continued to wargame. (RPG'ers forgetting. Wargamers perhaps remember those who 'stuck to their guns') So I cannot dismiss the idea that the latest generation of RPG'ers might be inventing something new, that mayhap I just don't get? (akin to those wargamers in the early 70's)
You got a spot at my (virtual) DnD table anytime, I too try hard to check my bias, try and talk it out and stay in the middle, but I don't truck with censorship.
12:12 I guess being at almost the exact age to not quite fit into the gen-x or milennial bracket, I feel like I can appreciate the perspective of both a little. Honestly, the hobby got bigger and more people came into the hobby that wanted something different out of it. Some of us got into it for the escape of wandering through a world that's shit and full of horror, a lot of gen-x myself included often chose apathy as our defence so touching on what can be emotionally charged themes makes us feel SOMETHING. And these themes were often common and upfront as to what to expect from the game. Both the media the games were born from - Moorcock springs to mind - and the culture around them. Players that didn't want those things, just wouldn't have played the game back in the 80-90s or they'd have made their own group set their own expectations, etc. These days with online communication (that genrally starts as text only), its way easier to get into a game with no real idea of what vibe to expect from the game. Characters take longer to make for 5e/pathfinder etc, players are expected to arrive at games pre-invested with backstory and character depth. Groups are expected to stick together for 80+ hours. I can see why safety tools seemed like a solution to keep these diverse commited groups of players feeling more comfortable, but as you said, they often don't work when needed most. I don't really have a better solution, as you said yourself if i'm not mistaken, we shouldn't be forced to share traumatic personal expecriences with strangers and risk giving them amunition to push those very buttons, that's not exactly safe either.
Yep, but Indestructaboy was after hits, pure & simple. Went after GJ ruthlessly at first. Don't agree with him and happy to say to his face - calling for deplat-forming - fuck him and the horse he rode in on.
@@jeremystyles6290 I would amplify the "and the horse he rode in on" comment with "use the horse to do him". Because I've gone back to the comments of the original "chud" video and not only are the people there still talking like idiots, Indestructoboy has said that the effective retraction of comments - text added to point out that things should now be good with himself and Grim - isn't happening. "It's in the conversation, I don't know what you want" when the picture of Grim plus the "chuds" text is still there in bright green and white. Even now, hours after the discussion video and literal mere minutes ago, Indestructoboy is NOT showing up in front of his audience as a person of decency or character, not even a FRACTION of the decency Grim shows in even a single video.
at the end of their chat jim said a retraction should be enough and that its hard to be anti-censorship on one hand and ask destructo to take that down on the other, pretty sure its been settled as far as grim and taron go, not to speak for either that was just my own interpretation of it @@troffle
@@Donbro Yeah but there's no retraction. And I wouldn't even think it was necessary because I agree with Jim on the censorship, as long as there were say a text note put up JUST AS CLEARLY. And there ISN'T and the jerk just said "it's in the conversation, I don't know what you want". To which my reply was "you don't even know what I might want, but you're the moral arbiter of right and wrong around here?". So right now there's the "chuds in ginnygate" big big text with Grim's face on it. And not a scrap of text. And the dishonesty that appears to currently be Indestructoboy says "it's in the conversation, I don't know what you want". Well, screw that. With the horse he rode in on, doing the screwing.
AAAAAAAAAAAND comments I put in there to a couple of his sycophants are now NOT APPEARING THERE. Even to my logging in. Which means, given that I didn't put any obscenities in the text, makes me suspect Indestructoboy deleted them himself. I swear, every single thing he does on this topic just makes him look worse and worse and worse and worse...
Jim, the divide is not only generational. We had nineties, gang wars, banditry, minor wars and hybrid conflicts in this part of the world, artillery goes boom and there are fireworks every day here and there, you either become pretty desensitized or you go mad, there’s no bubble wrap space for that. It’s very hard to take people outside their immediate strong concerns like ‘I’m okay with violence but would probably want to skip explicit torture and seggs and keep the game R’ seriously when, you know, arson and terror attacks happened irl throughout your childhood and friends broke legs climbing guns of rusty tanks just because parents were making money and we were free range idiots. Ps: I am not advocating sending people from too safe and sensitive countries to Siberian labor camps and KGB torture chambers, but sometimes the level of sensitivity is puzzling
I agree with a lot of what you say here. However, I will just add that for folks that are phobic of something, they can still be traumatized by a fictional representation of the thing they are phobic of. I only know this because my girlfriend is phobic of snakes and it took me a while to realize that she wasn't playing around when she showed genuine distress around any type of snake picture, model, toy or depiction in movies, etc. And that is knowing full well the thing is fictional/not real. I imagine that folks that carry around PTSD from SA or something might have similar types of responses to things that they know are fictional but still cause them genuine distress. With that in mind, I feel it sort of falls on everybody to "read the table" even at 18+ sessions and make reasonable adjustments to keep everybody engaged, even for the one person out of the whole group who is uncomfortable. All that being said, I still agree with you that formalized/published/mandated safety tools are not needed. My girlfriend doesn't expect the world to never have depictions of snakes and wouldn't ask a store to remove all of their snake toys because they cause her distress. Likewise somebody who sits down at an 18+ session should understand the implications of what 18+ means. Like I mentioned, any reasonable group would make adjustments if somebody at the table was in genuine distress but it shouldn't be mandated because ultimately, it us up to the individual to get up and walk away if they realize they are in over their head.
Without trying to be hostile to your girlfriend, phobias are an interesting ethical case. Exposure therapy is the basic treatment for them, and avoidance is not associated with any diminishment in symptoms. Now, unplanned exposure is definitely _not_ how one starts out. Forewarning a phobic that their trigger is present is best practice until the phobia is nearly extinguished. How much of the response to their condition should a phobic be expected to take ownership of?
That was more or less my point. She does take ownership and does not expect the world to bend to her particular issue. I just wanted to point out that there are legitimate cases where fiction and make believe can actually cause somebody real distress, even with being aware that the thing causing distress is not real. The individual is 100% responsible for their own mental wellbeing but I can also imaging most tables would make some type of on the fly adjustments to minimize that distress. You know, adults being adults. I do not believe a formalized "safety tool" process is needed or desirable. @@bearnaff9387
Your supposition about a cross-section of gamers not being able to differentiate between real and imagined threats may be true, but I think it's more that 'victimhood' has become a form of currency. Being a 'victim' is an extremely low-hanging fruit for the unremarkable to grab. Also, in your talk with Indestrucodouche, you said that it's your responsibility to "own your shit" at a gaming table instead of forcing everyone else to bear the cross with you and I am 100% in agreement. I suspect most people are. However, people like Indestructoboy and Ginny fundamentally disagree with that premise. In fact, they expect you to shoulder the burden and label you an evil person when you refuse to meet their ridiculous demands. What's worse is that, in many cases, their "trauma" is exaggerated and only put on display in order to collect 'victim' currency.
I'm still not sure why the safety tools conversation is a thing. Thinking back on my convention gaming experiences, I've seen a reenactor running American civil war game dressed as a confederate officer, a British colonial miniatures game were players spent four hours gunning down African tribesmen, a very impressive Alamo miniatures game run by a proud Texan, and an Iwo Jima miniatures game where American marines were using flamethrower on Japanese troops. Why pick this hill to die on when there's low hanging fruit all around you? If you want to see a threat, there's plenty out there to hang your hat on. Is it just because roleplaying gamers are an unsympathetic population to target?
My best guess is money. See... Ib and his cabal of "friends" are trying to make money off the TTRPG community. "safety" tools are a thing some of his friends are pushing to make money promoting. that's what he REALLY means when he talks about "attacking my friends". He's violently opposed to the idea of someone saying that a product made by one of his "friends" is counterproductive and harmful to the TTRPG community. But it's about money, not about being a simp, at least not directly...
@@AnonAdderlan Max? no. Max actually isn't an edgy guy really, he just likes to be honest about his feelings when ranting. Max's issue with the who racism and slavery thing... is the idea of banning the concepts from the hobby as a whole. He doesn't champion them as things the PLAYERS should do. It's about whether the BAD GUYS do them. And again, like @needmorecowbell6895 said, given how many of the 5E crowd are apparently murder-hoboes.... why is slavery and rape their hill to die on? The Civil War game he mentioned... having the GM be dressed as a southerner because he's playing the bad guy team? makes sense. PLAYERS are playing the good guy team, not the GM. Hard to do a blue vs grey game when no one plays the grey side....
I kindasorta agreed with his argument that the tables at the store/convention were the property of the hosting entity... less so the players at the table. But if they agree for you to run a game of Kult or The Whispering Vault or Unknown Armies... what is the expectation? Should a sensitive person maybe look before they leap into something that might come up against their sensitivity? Some responsibility needs to rest with the oh so sensitive person to have a modicum of awareness about what they're getting themself into, rather than expecting the entire world to pull its punches because they're so easily wounded.
Yeah like Grim said, if the host warns you that various forms of violence await adventurers that fail their quest... well.. the players shouldn't get surprised when they have a violent death.
These people need to stick with Candy Crush & My Little Pony if they can't handle Any form of stressor in their fictional RPG pursuits. I would love to see them play Old World of Darkness or Kult from back in the day. 😱
Uhm... 4th Generation My Little Pony was _very_ TTRPG in plot for the first season or so. The pilot episode had a literal "This Guy works out the entire plot to the campaign during the first meeting with the BBEG and skips straight to the final battle" scene. I know it's well past the point where people are back to mocking MLP and there are plenty of good reasons for that. But, the first couple seasons of the show are very enjoyable when considered as someone using common adventure gaming themes as jump-off points to tell stories. I could go on for entirely too long on the surprisingly weird and deep bits scattered through the show. I'm not going to, but I'll mention it to draw attention to the fact that MLP is a fantasy world in the traditional sense, even if it's one with pastel equuoids in a world where violence almost never makes things better.
Well, that's very sweet that the two of you got along. It's very nice that a dialogue was opened that didn't involve him calling you an evil transphobe who was erasing the existence of a group of people because you voted for people who don't think 4 year olds should get puberty blockers and genital surgery or that the decisions around those choices should be hidden from parents and instigated by teachers and activists rather than psychologists. But I'm glad you found common ground with the type of people that drove Mark Rein-Hagen out of the industry for being a Nazi. Very good. Because none of us can, we've all been blocked.
@@PostmortemVideo First, yes, I was wrong, but these types of people did try to paint Mark Rein-Hagen as a Nazi at the time. Also, the argument is whether a toddler has the capability to know, not whether it's happening. People who don't think it should happen voted for laws that banned it for 4 year olds. this demonstrates that they want this, otherwise they wouldn't call it evil.
it's not that gamers are better at fantasy/reality. it's that higher IQ people are better at fantasy/reality, but gamer demographic overlaps with higher IQ. however, by NOT gatekeeping, the mainstream/marketable slice of the hobby has been largely hijacked by emotionalist gamers who really do struggle with fantasy/reality divide.
yeah, that's my read on Ginny and Inde.... they take it personally when someone says "I don't like what he wrote." It's very emotional and not reasonable. It's the core of Inde's hit-piece. "how dare you say mean things about my friends!" It's like Grim said in the talk, your friends don't need you to defend them. It's just discussion of the hobby. Ginny's stance on safety tools can be championed by Ginny herself, she doesn't need you. Also the funny part is that Indestructoboy actually had a mask-off moment when he actually stopped defending safety tools and agreed with Grim about how rarely they're actually useful.
I'm a millennial. Many ( not all ) millennials & Gen z are victims of excess paradise. Humans are wired with a need to fight against the dangers , seek adventure & discover new lands. Millennials & Gen Z have no real evil to battle and no where too explore. An because of this and excess luxuries. They need to find something to fight and new ways to adventure & discover things. Also the fact that many live a life so removed from any challege, also results in a extremely low tolerance of anyting not pleasant. As Violent J of the Insane clown possie says. "The rich cuts them self because their grass ain't green enough."
On a personal level I have no line that can be crossed thematically, as I've dealt with the most extreme forms of art imaginable. There is a line though that exists in respecting people you know that have been open with you about say past abuse, and then you going on and rubbing it in by saying their character was r@9ed. That's just obvious, basic respect though if you know the people beyond just a game. What could be done I guess if you really want to play with random people from a diplomatic standpoint would just be to tell them that no rules exist as to the extremity of content present, and that it's understood going in that whatever happens in the fantasy game exists only in the fantasy game.
Maybe they see you as a marketing problem. You're a product competitor. It was always shocking to me how nasty people can get over business. Critical Role style DnD sucks all around, and you, being left/moderate, as opposed to some of the more hardcore right-wing RPG "let's make gaming a torture session and kill all the characters" and then advocate for 70-hour work weeks, are seriously a threat to their market share. Just a theory.
In defense of Critical Role, they are good at what they do, which is performance art and not entirely unscripted role playing. The players accepted the cues from Mercer and roll with it. It's not something you can get in an ordinary game unless people are coached and onboard.
Curious on your thoughts on session zero. Why are you so against it. I see it as an oppertunity to be respectful. Maybe the player had a child die, and they don't want to see those themes come up. Or the person is a recovering addict and they dont want to have reminders of drug use. I see session zero as an opportunity to respect that there are some situations people might want to avoid. Maybe you tell them your table isn't right for them, but that is better than surprising them with something that maked them uncomfortable. Use it as a screening if you must, but either way it can improve the table. You dont have to say "here is whats in my game", you can do the opposite and ask what topics they want to avoid.
Well, as Grim pointed out, making a list of things that make you go nope.... isn't a particularly healthy way to go about it. Especially if the adventure planned is a module and not actually the creation of the GM. But yeah, those examples you gave are good reasons to not play as the player.
It's not even about respect, but simply setting expectations. Far too many players just assume their expectations are shared despite all the evidence to the contrary, which is why groups which _already_ share common experiences tend to work together with fewer issues overall.
@@AnonAdderlan I understand a bunch of friends playing together probably doesn't need any safety tools, or even a session zero, because these things come up in casual conversation when discussing the campaign, but when it is a bunch of people who have never met before the session zero or pre-session zero questionnaire can help all parties involved.
@@scotthalfhill7501 Yeah and as Grim said, you can do all that as part of game setup for a quick pick-up-game. which is important nuance, it's not that Grim doesn't talk about limits, but that he does that as part of explaining the setting of the adventure, not as a separate thing divorced from the discussion of the game the players will play.
@marhawkman303 I think having it as a private questionnaire or a one on one with the DM is the best route though. They player might not want everyone to know that they are the ONE person that doesn’t want smoking at the table, or that they are more prude when it comes to intimacy in dnd. Having individual discussions allows the DM to shoulder that instead of singling out a player.
I don't have a cite for it, but supposedly they may come out of the unusually intense Nordic LARP scene. I am not overly familiar with Nordic LARP, other than having heard it can be intense and that it is somehow a different kind of experience than most LARPing. That said, if crazy sunlight-starved mutants doing very intensive scenes decided to come up with some formal tools to help control the natural chaos that arises, I would not be unduly surprised or distrustful at the use of safety tools in that context.
I watched the conversation you had with indestructoboy yesterday and I actually watched it all. I don't do that when it is a "debate" or blazing argument or just arm-crossed meep-meep meep. Watching two people working within what they have in common to discuss the pros and cons of a really very small part of the hobby was a genuine breath of fresh air. Good on both of you for making the effort.
On safety tools, I have been playing rpgs a long time, and safety tools are a recent thing, and I have seen them invoked at tables at shops and online many times, but I have never seen them deployed. No-one has ever stopped a game because they were triggered. Not saying it never happens, I have just never seen it. Generally, when people sit down to play, they know more or less what might happen (keyword: might). Anecdotally, I do recall when I was in middle school and we played at the home of a DM who was in highschool. We went for two sessions, just two, because the guy was introducing a lot of butt stuff. There were orcs who wore armour but their butts were showing, there was an npc who touched the butt of one of my friends' characters and there was a worm that crawled up another PC's butt. There was also a lot of shit in the dungeon with treasure in it, and we were alerted to one encounter because we heard the monster farting. We were not homophobes, but that was just more butt than we were looking for in our game of D&D, so we stopped going. Leaving the table for a moment or just leaving it for good is still the best safety tool to my mind.
Algorithm aside, you also need two parties who are willing, and adult enough to have such a discourse. That might well be the stumblibg block....
Progress, however.
I just wrote how you're the most reasonable-seeming person I've seen on TH-cam and now here you are saying you're not...? You know, I'm not used to receiving compliments at work so I know how it feels, but *I think it's about time you allowed yourself to*. You've done some good work there, man.
Reasonable people self-reflect and thus will be aware of their failings. They will accept and admit them. In this way, Jim seems very reasonable.
I do believe that safety tools had good intentions. I also believe that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
You have been on the receiving end of this sort of thing before, so I guess you reacted out of routine. The current Zeitgeists and Online Culture are definitely part of the reason why responses happened the way they did. Other than this, consider this a significant success. Nowadays its not often things end up with dialogue between parties that opens the door to both sides actually listening and "maybe" learning from one another openly. Sorry flame war lovers.. your not going to get your daily drama fix here, Grim's too "aggressively reasonable" for that.
There is nothing wrong with being cordial and having conversations without rancor. You are right the idea that people cannot tell fantasy from reality has always been there, in 1605 Don Quixote lost his mind from reading romantic tales of knights, I see this as a critique on this idea by Cervantes. From Pat Pulling and Tipper Gore, to Jack Thompson and Bill O'Reilly it's all nonsense. I'm someone who can get a little too wrapped up in my hobbies, cosplaying as MacArthur and staying in character during a 12 hour wargame for instance, but even I understand its all just for fun. If I can get this then I believe anyone can.
Keep doing what you're doing Jim. Stay awesome.
It was a good listen. I'm still not a fan of his. But I'll respect his decision to take it on the chin, especially when his hypocrisy of guilt by association got exposed roughly halfway through.
Yeah, Ib seems to have genuinely let the mask slip mid-discussion and started saying what he feels instead of playing to the camera.
Like admitting that Ginny-D's safety tools are useless junk... and admitting that this stunt was not about actually trying to do the right thing.
@@marhawkman303 it was about simping for a girl that is the darling of the modern tourists in the hobby. Don't get me wrong, I've only been involved for 3 years, but you can check my stuff. I don't have the hubris to pretend to be anyone of authority to give tips. Only insights. Only really useful for fellow noobies. IB's actions have smelled like "I hope she sees this, brah" for quite a bit. Going after dudes that didn't have anything to do with the Twitter nonsense was also in pretty bad taste. Like, yeah, Max is Max, and him having an Asian wife doesn't make him an authority on what is or ain't offensive. BUT, it's Max's right to say and do whatever he wants on his channel as long as it doesn't harm someone. I get Locker Room talk is being shamed in today's culture, but guys talk like that all the time and White Knighting is a bad look for someone who most likely doesn't even know you exist.
@@kentuckyrex I kinda suspect Ib isn't actually simping like that. I think it's more that he's in this financially as a cross-promotion gig. If true, the best course of action is to consign Ib to irrelevance.
Thanks!
Henry Rollins once said "Of all the politicians, preachers, and housewives we were up against, we never expected the biggest critics to be our fans. God forbid we played a song that was longer than 30 seconds and they'd all shout 'What are ya playin? Freebird?'".
I've recognized it, and tried to describe it as it pertains to RPG's without success. But you articulated this reasoning in the best way possible in the vid with Indestructoboy when describing HOW the Satanic Panic was very real. Sadly, I also agree with the idea that everyone is becoming more extreme in their bubbles... Ironically, it's the face to face interactions (Much like tabletop gaming) that brings reason to either side. It puts a face to the arguments, and like a funeral reminds us that we are all on the same side in the end. I am normally a pessimist, but it was like a lex friedman or joe rogan podcast that gave me a little hope that this trend *might* continue, and that someday gamers would put aside their politics/beliefs when they sit down at a table to play a game.
Kudos to you & Indestructoboy for doing that video. That's way off the path of the 'easy button' solution that everyone else chooses at face value, and for you both, doesn't meet the TH-cam Algorithm.
I do want to add though. In 'Secrets of Blackmoor' there is some discussion about how wargamers showed up to Arneson's game and after taking one look at it and realizing "Wait... We play individual characters and delve into a dungeon in a fantasy setting? This isn't wargaming, so yeah I am out". Obviously we remember the players who stayed and played (mostly) while forgetting the ones who continued to wargame. (RPG'ers forgetting. Wargamers perhaps remember those who 'stuck to their guns')
So I cannot dismiss the idea that the latest generation of RPG'ers might be inventing something new, that mayhap I just don't get? (akin to those wargamers in the early 70's)
Had a better result telling fantasy from reality, the newer gamers would throw that off for sure, & theres one way to divide a general group.
I've always respected you GJ. Became a channel member again. Cheers!!
Awesome, thank you!
You got a spot at my (virtual) DnD table anytime, I too try hard to check my bias, try and talk it out and stay in the middle, but I don't truck with censorship.
12:12 I guess being at almost the exact age to not quite fit into the gen-x or milennial bracket, I feel like I can appreciate the perspective of both a little.
Honestly, the hobby got bigger and more people came into the hobby that wanted something different out of it.
Some of us got into it for the escape of wandering through a world that's shit and full of horror, a lot of gen-x myself included often chose apathy as our defence so touching on what can be emotionally charged themes makes us feel SOMETHING. And these themes were often common and upfront as to what to expect from the game. Both the media the games were born from - Moorcock springs to mind - and the culture around them. Players that didn't want those things, just wouldn't have played the game back in the 80-90s or they'd have made their own group set their own expectations, etc.
These days with online communication (that genrally starts as text only), its way easier to get into a game with no real idea of what vibe to expect from the game. Characters take longer to make for 5e/pathfinder etc, players are expected to arrive at games pre-invested with backstory and character depth. Groups are expected to stick together for 80+ hours. I can see why safety tools seemed like a solution to keep these diverse commited groups of players feeling more comfortable, but as you said, they often don't work when needed most.
I don't really have a better solution, as you said yourself if i'm not mistaken, we shouldn't be forced to share traumatic personal expecriences with strangers and risk giving them amunition to push those very buttons, that's not exactly safe either.
have to give you both your due, you both came and spoke honestly, something that is drastically lacking in todays scene
Yep, but Indestructaboy was after hits, pure & simple. Went after GJ ruthlessly at first. Don't agree with him and happy to say to his face - calling for deplat-forming - fuck him and the horse he rode in on.
@@jeremystyles6290
I would amplify the "and the horse he rode in on" comment with "use the horse to do him".
Because I've gone back to the comments of the original "chud" video and not only are the people there still talking like idiots, Indestructoboy has said that the effective retraction of comments - text added to point out that things should now be good with himself and Grim - isn't happening. "It's in the conversation, I don't know what you want" when the picture of Grim plus the "chuds" text is still there in bright green and white.
Even now, hours after the discussion video and literal mere minutes ago, Indestructoboy is NOT showing up in front of his audience as a person of decency or character, not even a FRACTION of the decency Grim shows in even a single video.
at the end of their chat jim said a retraction should be enough and that its hard to be anti-censorship on one hand and ask destructo to take that down on the other, pretty sure its been settled as far as grim and taron go, not to speak for either that was just my own interpretation of it @@troffle
@@Donbro Yeah but there's no retraction. And I wouldn't even think it was necessary because I agree with Jim on the censorship, as long as there were say a text note put up JUST AS CLEARLY. And there ISN'T and the jerk just said "it's in the conversation, I don't know what you want".
To which my reply was "you don't even know what I might want, but you're the moral arbiter of right and wrong around here?".
So right now there's the "chuds in ginnygate" big big text with Grim's face on it. And not a scrap of text. And the dishonesty that appears to currently be Indestructoboy says "it's in the conversation, I don't know what you want".
Well, screw that. With the horse he rode in on, doing the screwing.
AAAAAAAAAAAND comments I put in there to a couple of his sycophants are now NOT APPEARING THERE. Even to my logging in. Which means, given that I didn't put any obscenities in the text, makes me suspect Indestructoboy deleted them himself.
I swear, every single thing he does on this topic just makes him look worse and worse and worse and worse...
Jim, the divide is not only generational. We had nineties, gang wars, banditry, minor wars and hybrid conflicts in this part of the world, artillery goes boom and there are fireworks every day here and there, you either become pretty desensitized or you go mad, there’s no bubble wrap space for that. It’s very hard to take people outside their immediate strong concerns like ‘I’m okay with violence but would probably want to skip explicit torture and seggs and keep the game R’ seriously when, you know, arson and terror attacks happened irl throughout your childhood and friends broke legs climbing guns of rusty tanks just because parents were making money and we were free range idiots.
Ps: I am not advocating sending people from too safe and sensitive countries to Siberian labor camps and KGB torture chambers, but sometimes the level of sensitivity is puzzling
Was a good talk. Indestructoboy also apologized to me, so that was nice.
This was well though out and cogent, as always.
I agree with a lot of what you say here. However, I will just add that for folks that are phobic of something, they can still be traumatized by a fictional representation of the thing they are phobic of. I only know this because my girlfriend is phobic of snakes and it took me a while to realize that she wasn't playing around when she showed genuine distress around any type of snake picture, model, toy or depiction in movies, etc. And that is knowing full well the thing is fictional/not real. I imagine that folks that carry around PTSD from SA or something might have similar types of responses to things that they know are fictional but still cause them genuine distress. With that in mind, I feel it sort of falls on everybody to "read the table" even at 18+ sessions and make reasonable adjustments to keep everybody engaged, even for the one person out of the whole group who is uncomfortable.
All that being said, I still agree with you that formalized/published/mandated safety tools are not needed. My girlfriend doesn't expect the world to never have depictions of snakes and wouldn't ask a store to remove all of their snake toys because they cause her distress. Likewise somebody who sits down at an 18+ session should understand the implications of what 18+ means. Like I mentioned, any reasonable group would make adjustments if somebody at the table was in genuine distress but it shouldn't be mandated because ultimately, it us up to the individual to get up and walk away if they realize they are in over their head.
Without trying to be hostile to your girlfriend, phobias are an interesting ethical case. Exposure therapy is the basic treatment for them, and avoidance is not associated with any diminishment in symptoms. Now, unplanned exposure is definitely _not_ how one starts out. Forewarning a phobic that their trigger is present is best practice until the phobia is nearly extinguished. How much of the response to their condition should a phobic be expected to take ownership of?
That was more or less my point. She does take ownership and does not expect the world to bend to her particular issue. I just wanted to point out that there are legitimate cases where fiction and make believe can actually cause somebody real distress, even with being aware that the thing causing distress is not real. The individual is 100% responsible for their own mental wellbeing but I can also imaging most tables would make some type of on the fly adjustments to minimize that distress. You know, adults being adults. I do not believe a formalized "safety tool" process is needed or desirable. @@bearnaff9387
In terms of discerning fact and fiction, reality and simulacrum, we have to always remember: Ceci n'est pas une pipe.
Ceci n'est pas un pomme.
Ceci n'est pas un pipe.
Ceci n'est pas la television.
Your supposition about a cross-section of gamers not being able to differentiate between real and imagined threats may be true, but I think it's more that 'victimhood' has become a form of currency. Being a 'victim' is an extremely low-hanging fruit for the unremarkable to grab. Also, in your talk with Indestrucodouche, you said that it's your responsibility to "own your shit" at a gaming table instead of forcing everyone else to bear the cross with you and I am 100% in agreement. I suspect most people are. However, people like Indestructoboy and Ginny fundamentally disagree with that premise. In fact, they expect you to shoulder the burden and label you an evil person when you refuse to meet their ridiculous demands. What's worse is that, in many cases, their "trauma" is exaggerated and only put on display in order to collect 'victim' currency.
He initially went after you with a cheap shot - much better than IndestructraBoy will ever be on his best day. Nuff said!!
It was a good discussion.
I'm still not sure why the safety tools conversation is a thing. Thinking back on my convention gaming experiences, I've seen a reenactor running American civil war game dressed as a confederate officer, a British colonial miniatures game were players spent four hours gunning down African tribesmen, a very impressive Alamo miniatures game run by a proud Texan, and an Iwo Jima miniatures game where American marines were using flamethrower on Japanese troops. Why pick this hill to die on when there's low hanging fruit all around you? If you want to see a threat, there's plenty out there to hang your hat on. Is it just because roleplaying gamers are an unsympathetic population to target?
My best guess is money. See... Ib and his cabal of "friends" are trying to make money off the TTRPG community. "safety" tools are a thing some of his friends are pushing to make money promoting. that's what he REALLY means when he talks about "attacking my friends". He's violently opposed to the idea of someone saying that a product made by one of his "friends" is counterproductive and harmful to the TTRPG community. But it's about money, not about being a simp, at least not directly...
To be fair Indestructaboy did use this controversy to go after exactly such a low hanging individual.
@@AnonAdderlan Max? no. Max actually isn't an edgy guy really, he just likes to be honest about his feelings when ranting.
Max's issue with the who racism and slavery thing... is the idea of banning the concepts from the hobby as a whole. He doesn't champion them as things the PLAYERS should do. It's about whether the BAD GUYS do them.
And again, like @needmorecowbell6895 said, given how many of the 5E crowd are apparently murder-hoboes.... why is slavery and rape their hill to die on?
The Civil War game he mentioned... having the GM be dressed as a southerner because he's playing the bad guy team? makes sense. PLAYERS are playing the good guy team, not the GM. Hard to do a blue vs grey game when no one plays the grey side....
I kindasorta agreed with his argument that the tables at the store/convention were the property of the hosting entity... less so the players at the table. But if they agree for you to run a game of Kult or The Whispering Vault or Unknown Armies... what is the expectation?
Should a sensitive person maybe look before they leap into something that might come up against their sensitivity? Some responsibility needs to rest with the oh so sensitive person to have a modicum of awareness about what they're getting themself into, rather than expecting the entire world to pull its punches because they're so easily wounded.
Yeah like Grim said, if the host warns you that various forms of violence await adventurers that fail their quest... well.. the players shouldn't get surprised when they have a violent death.
These people need to stick with Candy Crush & My Little Pony if they can't handle Any form of stressor in their fictional RPG pursuits.
I would love to see them play Old World of Darkness or Kult from back in the day. 😱
Uhm... 4th Generation My Little Pony was _very_ TTRPG in plot for the first season or so. The pilot episode had a literal "This Guy works out the entire plot to the campaign during the first meeting with the BBEG and skips straight to the final battle" scene. I know it's well past the point where people are back to mocking MLP and there are plenty of good reasons for that. But, the first couple seasons of the show are very enjoyable when considered as someone using common adventure gaming themes as jump-off points to tell stories.
I could go on for entirely too long on the surprisingly weird and deep bits scattered through the show. I'm not going to, but I'll mention it to draw attention to the fact that MLP is a fantasy world in the traditional sense, even if it's one with pastel equuoids in a world where violence almost never makes things better.
@@bearnaff9387 If I owned the MLP franchise I'd have the final episode involve a Glue Factory.
James reminds me a bit of Stephen Fry
Very high praise.
It might be quite fun to see a 4 Yorkshiremen type scenario of people trying to outdo each other with x-cards; an x-card that objects to x-cards, etc
Well, that's very sweet that the two of you got along. It's very nice that a dialogue was opened that didn't involve him calling you an evil transphobe who was erasing the existence of a group of people because you voted for people who don't think 4 year olds should get puberty blockers and genital surgery or that the decisions around those choices should be hidden from parents and instigated by teachers and activists rather than psychologists.
But I'm glad you found common ground with the type of people that drove Mark Rein-Hagen out of the industry for being a Nazi. Very good. Because none of us can, we've all been blocked.
Mark's still in the industry, it was NuWhiteWolf that had been getting into trouble, children aren't getting genital surgery.
@@PostmortemVideo First, yes, I was wrong, but these types of people did try to paint Mark Rein-Hagen as a Nazi at the time. Also, the argument is whether a toddler has the capability to know, not whether it's happening. People who don't think it should happen voted for laws that banned it for 4 year olds. this demonstrates that they want this, otherwise they wouldn't call it evil.
it's not that gamers are better at fantasy/reality. it's that higher IQ people are better at fantasy/reality, but gamer demographic overlaps with higher IQ. however, by NOT gatekeeping, the mainstream/marketable slice of the hobby has been largely hijacked by emotionalist gamers who really do struggle with fantasy/reality divide.
yeah, that's my read on Ginny and Inde.... they take it personally when someone says "I don't like what he wrote." It's very emotional and not reasonable. It's the core of Inde's hit-piece. "how dare you say mean things about my friends!" It's like Grim said in the talk, your friends don't need you to defend them. It's just discussion of the hobby. Ginny's stance on safety tools can be championed by Ginny herself, she doesn't need you.
Also the funny part is that Indestructoboy actually had a mask-off moment when he actually stopped defending safety tools and agreed with Grim about how rarely they're actually useful.
I'm a millennial.
Many ( not all ) millennials & Gen z are victims of excess paradise.
Humans are wired with a need to fight against the dangers , seek adventure & discover new lands.
Millennials & Gen Z have no real evil to battle and no where too explore.
An because of this and excess luxuries.
They need to find something to fight and new ways to adventure & discover things.
Also the fact that many live a life so removed from any challege, also results in a extremely low tolerance of anyting not pleasant.
As Violent J of the Insane clown possie says.
"The rich cuts them self because their grass ain't green enough."
On a personal level I have no line that can be crossed thematically, as I've dealt with the most extreme forms of art imaginable. There is a line though that exists in respecting people you know that have been open with you about say past abuse, and then you going on and rubbing it in by saying their character was r@9ed. That's just obvious, basic respect though if you know the people beyond just a game. What could be done I guess if you really want to play with random people from a diplomatic standpoint would just be to tell them that no rules exist as to the extremity of content present, and that it's understood going in that whatever happens in the fantasy game exists only in the fantasy game.
Ehhh I hate it say it. but I give the other guy less then a month before.. he does something? Sorry lol
Maybe they see you as a marketing problem. You're a product competitor. It was always shocking to me how nasty people can get over business. Critical Role style DnD sucks all around, and you, being left/moderate, as opposed to some of the more hardcore right-wing RPG "let's make gaming a torture session and kill all the characters" and then advocate for 70-hour work weeks, are seriously a threat to their market share. Just a theory.
You know, I think you're right. How does Indestructoboy define his "friends"? I suspect they're all co-promoters.
In defense of Critical Role, they are good at what they do, which is performance art and not entirely unscripted role playing. The players accepted the cues from Mercer and roll with it. It's not something you can get in an ordinary game unless people are coached and onboard.
@@fallout4smallcustomization330 Yeah, CR is a stage performance, not a TTRPG game. but it is entertaining.
Curious on your thoughts on session zero. Why are you so against it. I see it as an oppertunity to be respectful. Maybe the player had a child die, and they don't want to see those themes come up. Or the person is a recovering addict and they dont want to have reminders of drug use. I see session zero as an opportunity to respect that there are some situations people might want to avoid. Maybe you tell them your table isn't right for them, but that is better than surprising them with something that maked them uncomfortable. Use it as a screening if you must, but either way it can improve the table. You dont have to say "here is whats in my game", you can do the opposite and ask what topics they want to avoid.
Well, as Grim pointed out, making a list of things that make you go nope.... isn't a particularly healthy way to go about it. Especially if the adventure planned is a module and not actually the creation of the GM. But yeah, those examples you gave are good reasons to not play as the player.
It's not even about respect, but simply setting expectations. Far too many players just assume their expectations are shared despite all the evidence to the contrary, which is why groups which _already_ share common experiences tend to work together with fewer issues overall.
@@AnonAdderlan I understand a bunch of friends playing together probably doesn't need any safety tools, or even a session zero, because these things come up in casual conversation when discussing the campaign, but when it is a bunch of people who have never met before the session zero or pre-session zero questionnaire can help all parties involved.
@@scotthalfhill7501 Yeah and as Grim said, you can do all that as part of game setup for a quick pick-up-game. which is important nuance, it's not that Grim doesn't talk about limits, but that he does that as part of explaining the setting of the adventure, not as a separate thing divorced from the discussion of the game the players will play.
@marhawkman303 I think having it as a private questionnaire or a one on one with the DM is the best route though. They player might not want everyone to know that they are the ONE person that doesn’t want smoking at the table, or that they are more prude when it comes to intimacy in dnd. Having individual discussions allows the DM to shoulder that instead of singling out a player.
I don’t think the inception of safety tools were ever based on good intentions.
They are similar to what a Karen would invent for Karen purposes.
I don't have a cite for it, but supposedly they may come out of the unusually intense Nordic LARP scene. I am not overly familiar with Nordic LARP, other than having heard it can be intense and that it is somehow a different kind of experience than most LARPing. That said, if crazy sunlight-starved mutants doing very intensive scenes decided to come up with some formal tools to help control the natural chaos that arises, I would not be unduly surprised or distrustful at the use of safety tools in that context.