7 Ways to Recover from a TPK in D&D
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Character death and Total Party Kills (TPKs) in D&D happen. But what should a dungeon master do when a TPK happens?
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WE had a TPK in our 5E Orc campaign, due to bad luck(My orc necromancer was killed by a fireball), without even seeing the elf king our party attacked! Our DM had our characters wake up in prison and after a failed escape attempt, the elves sold us to Drow slavers that led us to playing part of Out of the Abyss!
You didn't have a TPK you had a TPW, Total Party Wipeout, probably because the DM didn't want to end their campaign there.
Did you prefer that situation, where you had a chance to continue with your character's or would you have preferred to have being all killed outright?
I only ever had one tpk. The players had been trying to prevent two evil wizards from summoning a powerful demon which would be used to crush all opposition.
The new characters started out as villagers under the oppressive rule of the wizards after they had crushed all opposition.
I love how « how to deal with a tpk » is almost the same as « how to deal with relationship problems » :P
Imagine your wife can't make it to the dinner date and you say “Oh, I'm not cancelling it. I'll just call one of the backup girls I have in line" 🤣🤣🤣🤣
I was in a group once that had some flaky members, so the DM did something brilliant (or what I thought anyway). At the start of the game he worked it in that players would flake on some game sessions, so the first encounter was with a low level bog witch that cursed the party and throughout the campaign he would randomly pick a player that would "phase out" for a short amount of time. Basically, they would shift to the ethereal plane, so they can see what's going on, but they can't interact. This was so they could stay with the group even though they couldn't directly interact with them. So, when a member (or members) couldn't make it to a game, the game went on without them and they were just the ones effected by the curse at that time. the next time they showed up, they were brought up to speed as to where the story left off, the others bragged about the loot, etc. that they missed out on collecting. surprisingly, it seemed to cut down on the flakiness.
I can be this type of DM, though I'd rather have to whole party present on every session but I guess if you want to not commit to being present when you're called for attendance then fine go ahead and miss free pizza Friday or slutty Saturdays sinful Sundays magnificence Monday Tavern Tuesday wicked Wednesday thirsty Thursday Tavern 😂 oh look it's already free pizza Friday
When my players bite off more than they can chew, I always add a moment that basically gives the party a chance to escape. A wizard 's fireball blows open a hole in the wall, or a knocked over cauldron creates a smoke screen. If they don't take advantage of this opportunity I play it out no matter the outcome. After that they can start with new characters, but time will have passed, the place where they died may have changed hands, their gear sold or looted by others. The enemy they faced will have set up another better defended hideout.
The "That's how it could have happened" works best when you make it a vision of events to come, and should only come in dramatic situations.
Party about to fight a deadly battle? Maybe that TPK was a vision the cleric's God sent.
If used, it should only be used very very rarely, and as a story element if anything
When it comes to TPKs (or even just character death in general) what I'm a fan of is 'You come back... at a cost'. Maybe some powerful entity brought you back but now owns your soul. Maybe you're now all undead! Maybe you're a robot duplicate (My artificer has this one ready to go with a Ring of Mind Shielding and a slot in the brain of their Steel Defender).
As a player it lets you keep going with a character you love. But it's an option, so if you want you can roll up someone new. As a GM, it lets you keep everything you have planned for that character in play, plus lets you add new complications and storylines for the players. Win-win.
I like to bring the players back at a cost but with a special boon! It makes the dead player/s not feel like “they lost”. Death can still be a “failing forward” moment and can move the story as well.
Agreed, I wouldn't have the cost be anything mechanically detrimental. That just increases the chance of a death spiral! @@CaseyWilkesmusic
Everyone levels DOWN. The players themselves get to decide what they have to discard to meet the new level stats. They can choose just to reset the character back to their old level, or they can mix things up so they still meet the stats but it isn't the same old-same old.
It is important to discuss character deaths and consequences at Session Zero though.
Sorry but... that option kinda sucks. I get where you're going with it, but having cool abilities then have them taken away is rough. Plus, if it happens too many times, well, looks like the BBEGs gonna win as the PC's get reset back to level 3!@@rhisands2063
@@rhisands2063 played a curse of strahd campaign and that was the rule from session 1. fun way to play if you want some real stakes.
I have only had a TPK twice in my experience of D&D. Both at different points in the same campaign.
The first one we were at level 9 and our Barbarian did something stupid and died, and the rest of us were about to get TPK’d. This was our DM’s first campaign so he was still a bit of a novice. But he let it play out in a very specific way as to avoid a full on TPK by giving one of our characters a slight boost in power for a moment, like they could do something not usually possible thanks to the adrenaline of the situation. So our Barbarian had just touched some Soul Eating fire that was going to steal the souls of our party. So our Barbarian was already dead. Then it went for our Druid. And then, right before it came to kill by Bard, our DM let me cast Reincarnate on our Druid before it took me and our Druid was able to escape. It allowed our Druid to continue on and pick up our new player characters that I and our Barbarian had to make. It also provided a lot of character work for the Druid. Why did my Bard decide to reincarnate her rather than our Barbarian. How is she going to reconcile the fact that she was an elf and is now a human, now knowing her lifespan has decreased dramatically. And along with the survivor’s guilt she had. It was super fun for the campaign to be honest.
Then we TPK’d against the BBEG. It was the final battle of the campaign, there were several things that could have happened and we just fucked it up. If we had won it would have been the end anyway, so whilst it was disappointing, that was the outcome based on our decisions.
I really hope that when the 2024 DM's Guide comes out there's a new Rule 0 and that is "Communicate with your players". It's probably the single most important element when running a game and should be mentioned in the book.
Reading Candela Obscura (played once) and I love the concept of scars and I would like to try to give that option to a player with a dead character in d&d or Pathfinder. Basically, your character can come back with an explanation that has a mechanical cost. The mechanical cost must have a down side but can have an up side too. It could be like an aspect from fate. Invoke it to have advantage or the DM can invoke it to impose you disadvantage.
I have a plan in place for my current party, should they ever TPK, but it's going to be threading a narrative needle, so to speak.
I have an NPC in reserve, connected to a PC backstory, who is essentially a prodigy divine caster, favored child to the religious figurehead of the faith. Thusfar, the NPC has been relegated to the background and has not appeared in person, being off in another region of the world.
The big, overarching threat of the campaign is being left a mystery, something the players will gradually piece together over time. But, once they are aware of it, and hopefully decide to actively oppose it, it opens up a window of opportunity.
Should the players TPK, I would have them keep their character sheets. Maybe next session comes along and we are making new characters. I suggest sitting down with each player individually to help them build the new character.
But when we sit down, I will address them by the name of their deceased character, returning to a semblance of consciousness, but lacking their full individual will. The NPC mentioned earlier, has tracked down the site of the party's TPK and wants to know what happened. Time has passed in-game, and things are looking bad as a result of the TPK.
As I meet with each player individually, they are the subject of a Speak with Dead spell as the NPC tries to piece together what has happened. The final question each of them is asked is, "what would you do with a second chance?"
If the answers to that question are satisfactory, the NPC will bring them back. But this is a narrative once-off. Their only redo. And it has consequences on the narrative.
Our party is staring down the barrel of a tpk next session and while I don't care if I lose my character just having the party tie to some random goon unrelated to the big bad feels so anticlimactic. I don't feel like I have the right to tell the GM I don't like that outcome but it's still really bothering me.
As the DM lair and so many others say all the time:
COMMUNICATION IS KEY.
Don't keep that to yourself. Talk to your DM. Tell him how you're feeling. Give a chance for you and the DM to come to an understanding about what's going on. Maybe it's because of your bad choices and so on and so forth. Maybe it's the DM underestimating the situation. Maybe it's just perception differences.
BUT TALK TO YOUR DM. Nothing kills a group faster than people staying quiet when they have concerns to address.
Magic users mentor scries the scene and sends a minion to recover their bodies. They have of course been looted. Send the bodies to the temple holding their funds and have them repaired. Then ask the players "Now what"?
The BBEG animates (skeletons/zombies.) the bodies and sends them back to the temple, or patron of the party either as a joke or a message. Use magic mouth to deliver any message..
So, you're dead? Now I as DM will laugh, Muwahahahahaha!
I'd just add that I find them all valid ways to deal with TPKs, even the "this is just one way it could've happened" method. It's just that some of them should not be overused and you should find a narrative reason to explain it.
An example of the "this is one way it could've gone" that could fit is if the party (assuming high level) know a powerful entity that could be showing them the possible future through a scrying mirror. After the TPK the DM sets the scene that they are actually with this entity that is showing them what they are up against... Of course if you do this too much (more than once is most likely too much) then, I agree that it'll become a bit boring.
So I'd rather divide the various ways to deal with TPK as the regular ones (continue with new characters, restart a campaign, etc.) and the more circumstantial ones (prisoners, do-over, and the likes)
Overall, great information.
Thx
I planned a TPK that wasn't a TPK. But it was. What it meant was I could send them to the time they needed to be in to help these angels that wanted them to help. They then awoke on a ship and instantly distrusted everything. Took them a whole session to leave the room lol
When you mentioned restarting the fight after a TPK, I immediately thought of a magic item idea. Imagine a consumable artifact that attunes to several creatures. If every one attuned to it dies, time is reset to 1 hour before their deaths and the artifact shatters.
contingency spell within a artificer device.
@@edwardbirdsall6580 That would be cool, but Contingency is only a Wizard Spell and can only target yourself even if it can normally target others.
I personally love the leveling process, and play more of a mind set it is about the journey not the distinction. So while I would still go along with the consensus of the table, I still prefer a lvl 1 restart for a TPK and letting players roll up a lvled character in the case of a player death.
I would also add, I think overall, unless it is really early is the session, it is always best to give players time by talking about it and ending the session a bit early after a death or TPK. I have seen some players die and start rolling the new player, to jump back in right away. but often it is best to take some time, figure out what you want to play next, who that character is, and get some back story there. Character creation is often my favorite part, I don't want to be rushing it, distracted by a resent death, and just not get it right. It's best to take some time to really process things, and refresh with a new character.
A level 1 restart is okay in some scenarios, but deeply impractical in others. Like, if you're 3/4 of the way through a 1-10 campaign like Shadow of the Dragon Queen when a TPK happens, your new level 1 party would be completely useless and helpless against anything being fielded at that point in the campaign's progression.
If you are 3/4 of a way through a Campaign, your DM skills should be enough to create your own, new start, and then meet up where you left off by the end.
If I want a congruent story I would read a book. But a party needs time to gel and develop, and a totally new party of high level characters misses out on the party bonding that happens in the first 2 or 3 levels, before they start getting powerful. Leveled parties miss out on a lot of that early growth that makes the end game all that much more memorable.
It comes down to what is more important, sticking to your story you have all planned out, or adapting to have a better playing experience as the new party develops. Of course I would listen to the players, and do what they want, but all things being equal, I'd try to restart and adapt.
The way I’ve handled TPKs is after the battle or event is over I’ll ask the group if they want to start with fresh lvl1 characters, return to the campaign with new characters at their current level, or my personal favorite “escape the realm of death” which in itself is a whole new campaign that they can either complete in 2 or 3 sessions or they can spend several sessions there, grinding out levels that they get to keep if they return. Dying in that realm is permanent though. Most of my players really like the third option. I’ve even started full campaigns there.
We didn't have a full-on TPK (half of the group died and others ended up into the rather complicated situation), and we could continue playing, but the DM didn't really like the campaign, so he just decided that NPC employed us got scared of what we to do and asked us to retreat (the story actually got a pretty sweet ending, but not the one our characters wanted).
We had "it could go different" twice, but one was baked into the game and we knew about it (also, it was the fight we couldn't really win and couldn't avoid without reading the DMs mind... Not the best episode overall) and another time... It was a huge mess for all of us in real life, not going into too personal details; yes, I normally wouldn't like it either, but at that moment... We just needed to succeed.
I have not had to many experiences with TPKs, but I know this, each campaign happens once, if the party is killed, its likely game over, bad guys won, new campaign next week.
I suppose if you are running a module RAW this could be true.
I’ve never run a module. I am currently playing in two different modules run by different GMs. That said, my current campaign is based off of no less than three modules from at least three versions of D&D and playing in yet another version (5e). I have modified and rewritten what I needed to fit the narrative of my world.
I’ve not seen anything in any module that would prevent me from continuing the campaign after a TPK if that’s what the players wanted. My world is living and dynamic. The actions of the PCs have lasting effects (As my players recently found out. And are about to find out again. They have unknowingly tipped another domino. One that I didn’t see coming and have no idea where it will lead.)
All that to say, if the GM and the players want to continue the campaign I see no reason why that can’t be the case.
As a player and a GM I sometime tell people, “I have a masters in MSU.”
(Making Sh!t Up.) And so do you.
Grab your ketchup and crunch away my friends.
I've got things structured right now to support this. We've capped every character at level 15, we're not even pretending to be targeting high level play. This means that for the most part, anything a party can get up to (for good or ill) will only have effects one one planet. Therefore it's fine to just say "the bad guys won, here are the consequences, roll your new first level party". If it's Ultimate Failure and the whole planet is lost (as in rendered uninhabitable), we move on to a new planet. The complete absence of 8th and 9th level spells in our game limits the damage.
I've had to do a little houseruling over Teleportation Circles because otherwise it would be trivial to hop between planets (they're all on the same Prime Material Plane, which is actually a galaxy), but this also offers a good way to hook in multiple DMs agreeing to a basic structure on how characters are constructed and how much magic loot they're allowed to carry. Once we set up a baseline, each DM can have their own world with its own lore and inhabitants -- to a point. There is only one set of planes, so anything that happens in the Feywild or Abyss or wherever in one DM's setting has to be reported in detail, as this is "common ground". But all that necessarily can only happen from levels 13 to 15, so it's pretty easy not to step on another DM's toes. It was harder when we had 17th level spellcasters throwing Wishes around.
BTW the houserule on Teleportation Circle is that while on the Prime Material Plane, you can only target Circles that are within 100,000 miles of you. That takes care of planet-hopping. If the players _want_ to move to another planet, they have to use a 7th level spell. The full-blown _Teleport_ spell does not have the 100,000 mile limitation.
I like idea of playing out a one shot of your afterlife. Then the player has a second chance when reincarnated.
One thing I will do, for 5e and other RPGs, is I will roll death saves(or similar things) secretly. This adds to the tension of the scene for everyone involved.
At the same time, if all the characters fall unconscious, that's when I stop the scene. I will roll any death saves that are appropriate, but still have the villains capture the PCs, if they want to do so.
This sets up that the PC deaths matter, and shows that I'm not coddling the players. But it also sets up the personality of the enemies. For example, I will often have black dragons capture PCs, with the intention of torturing them for the dragon's sick pleasure, since that shows just how terrible they are.
However, this combination means that the players can often survive in interesting scenarios, let good death saves still matter, and unique features like the ability fight without special equipment shine in these moments. I've also let characters that should die instead take maiming injuries instead, so that they can still play the character, but also use the lingering injuries in a fun way at the table.
My favorite advice from this vid Luke was never reschedule. You have never said truer words. The games over once you do that to many weeks in a row. I had some work things I had to do for a few weeks and a month later the games over people start dropping out, or start coming up with their own emergencies mysteriously. I only cancel when it extreme situations
Reschedule? Nah I try again next week then I don't here from anyone on it anymore its like did yall forget or yall something better to do? Idc either way but damn I already most people I already know don't give a damn and the ones that do are too far away to make it and I didn't give a damn to make a world anvil r20 and other things you posers say to use because yall Jenks are hogging everyone like pigs in shit.
Nigel my apologies but that's how this community makes me feel
This video really shows why having a TPK surprise a group can be an issue. Even Luke's suggestion of starting new characters at current level has several pitfalls. The party has no history with each other now, and the initial wealth of a tier 2-4 character is very subjective in 5e. This is even more difficult to determine if that character can get some or all their current items back. Newer players may struggle when they switch classes, or they may just make a new character that is basically the same as the one that was killed to avoid struggling. John the wizard becomes Johan the wizard (He's from another place now.) Should the DM allow that?
If you're the type of DM that has frequent character death, up to and including a TPK, you really need to have a well-defined system in place at the very beginning. Don't wait until a TPK happens after a dozen gaming sessions to determine next steps.
We had a boss battle in our current campaign that we could just not overcome. We'd tried to take out the Big Bad and his minions twice before, and managed to narrowly escape when the battle turned against us. We took a third shot at it, and this time TPK'd. Everyone was frustrated and ticked off -- we had spent a lot of time planning our attack, and felt like we'd really given it our all, but still came up short. Nobody (including the DM) had any enthusiasm for trying again, either with these characters or new ones...we were just over it and wanted to move on. Since this had been a side-quest, not related to the main plot of the campaign, the GM decided to hand-wave it away. He charged us a bunch of money for "resurrection spells", and any resources we'd used during the battle were still gone, so there was at least some consequences for our failure. But otherwise, we just picked up and carried on with the rest of the campaign, and assumed that our Big Bad Guy had succeeded in whatever his Big Bad Plan was, and was off living happily ever after in his Big Bad Kingdom...over there somewhere. Definitely not a Luke-approved, immersive approach, but for us, it was the best way to dispense with a quest-line that we all agreed had been a mistake in the first place.
I love it when TPKs happen in Planescape. It's an excuse to regroup them in the mortuary in Sigil & if players want to make a new character of an equivalent level they can, then after a small break and re-gear they can go find a portal that can take them back to where they where when TPKd. But again you need to check with players with what they want to do.
Thank you! I like what you said about loading your last save point invalidating the whole thing
I miss the old skits, like that time Barbarian went into the forest, will you ever do one again?
Agreed, I would like to see these return, even if it is not every episode. Having it happen sometimes will still be cool.
I love using death in my games. Getting a chance to defeat an avatar of death to get back up. Instead of simply rolling a d20 and passing a turn. Making deals with the reaper or an unsavory fiends. Trying to escape the underworld. Rewarding pious clerics and paladins. Maybe the gods have chosen them and they suddenly have been restored to life but now have a new mission to accomplish or return to the grave. Just a few things to keep the game going.
We did a funny thing once.
After a bunch of TPKs in D&D we, all together, translated the encounter into another game system and played it again. After that, we took some encounters we had played in that game system and translated them into D&D.
Long story short, we found the "problem"; whenever we had recently played "another system" the GM and the players had problems with judging the danger level of actions and encounters.
The two system's main difference was in the combat system.
So, it might also be an idea to continue the campaign with another system or edition.
What I would love to see is that the GM changes after a TPK or after the campaign/adventure ends.
What about the second chance approach, when the PCs die they get to their respective afterlife. After feeling unsatisfied, they choose to live again. Their deities give them a mission to send them back, or limited time. They can even steal their lives back. It could be pretty interesting and fast. No need for a lot of personal missions. A single session should suffice. A celestial deity agrees to send the paladin back but they need to change their oath to vengeance. A feind agrees to a contract to send them back for limited time, until the warlock completes their mission, or dies again. A rogue steals a powerful artifact from Mask and is able to manifest in a body again, but their race changes as in the reincarnation spell. Now Mask is after them and thieves distrust him. A wizard with their last magic clings to life and is transformed into a mimicry of life and undead. Now he counts as an undead but if their animated body is destroyed, so is their soul.
The second chance approach is a second life but at a great cost, and players that got attached to their characters and their missions will accept the consequences and make their story even more challenging instead of feeling like they're immortal.
My first campaign i played an Aasimar paladin of Tyr after almost a year of playing we had a TPK and next week was spring break for all of us so for the entirety of that week our DM did sessions with each of us one on one describing the afterlives we found ourselves in. Some of our party had to beg their God or ruler of where ever they ended up to he sent back because the world still needed the party our paladin of bahamut who was a silver dragon bor had been reincarnated as a platinum dragonborn, my character expected to awake in the court of tyr in the foothils pf mt celestia but instead he awoke infront of his celestial father close to the peak he was sent back with a ring that would allow me to cast planar ally once and summon hum and then the ring would turn to dust, to ensure thst next time me and my friends were in dire straits he could assist
Having started playing with Original D&D, Basic and then AD&D, we all learned really fast that combat was not always the answer. That negotiation, bribery or just running away to live another day could be the best course.
I really can't think of a single time when all our party members were killed. Someone was always able to get away one way or another.
In fact, if any one character got killed, we started to rethink our options. Did we think that we could still win? If not, then a retreating option was put together. Because sometimes it is better to run away and live to fight another day. And that day could be after a good days rest and different spells memorized.
Losing is part of the game you know. If you never lose you aren't really playing the game.
Just roll up some new characters and try, try again.
In worse case scenario, the players stop playing the game altogether with no interest to get back to playing.
Just had a tpk at level 9, got killed from full health from one attack from a werewolf oathbreaker paladin. 75 hp to 0. Felt pretty shitty, wasn't a crit or anything. And it felt like the DM was metagaming by choosing to bum rush my character incurring 3 opportunity attacks to do so. Other players were pretty new so I watched them die after throwing cantrips at the boss. Quite salty ngl
You wanna talk about salty?
I'm in a group, we had spend the last 5 hours, of real time, trying to figure out a way to find evidence on a crooked judge.
We come up with a plan and decide to do it that night, in about 10 hrs in-game.
As a group, we prepare and take a long rest at the inn. The frikken GM says "Everybody roll a wisdom save".
Everybody rolls below a 10. The GM says we all take 36 points of damage as the entire inn explodes, flinging our bodies into the streets, completely leveling the inn and disintergrating ALL of our gear.
We then got death saves. We were 3rd level.
I was pissed. That was some BS. It just blew up for no reason, without any warning. At least if we had a fighting chance I'd have been ok with it but that had me basically just getting up and walking out once we were done.
No small talk, no "good game". I just left.
Your DM did 150 hp of damage in one hit and it wasn't a crit? Sounds like they buffed the hell out of the NPC just to kill you.
@@drizzo4669yeah. I hope you never went back.
We had two TPKs in a row in our AD&D 1e game just last week. Lost 7 leveled characters to two different save or die poison traps. We tried to search for the traps but failed and triggered them. We have to roll up new level 1 characters since they cannot be raised.
Just got my alt cover copies of Loot and Lore and Lairs and Legends. So excited to read through. Merry Christmas to me..the forever DM lol
Starting over at 1st level never feels good, but bringing in a new party at the same level can make the deaths of their previous characters feel cheap, their characters easily interchangeable.
In some games, it might be better to make a new party out of characters whose lives have been touched by the old group.
The blacksmith whose daughter they rescued...
A member of the militia they have been training...
The Elf prince from the neighboring country who they freed from the evil lieutenant's dungeon...
The rogue's rival from the local guild...
Start this new group 2 or 3 levels lower than the old group.
They know they are not as powerful as their heroes, but those heroes cannot save them now...
Someone has to step up...
Puzzles do suck!! All I can say is thank you for what you do and also, you're awesome!
I remember once when my players tpk'd, I had them go to hell and continue adventuring in baator. It was a funny solution, and made sense given my plan for the campaign and who their characters were
They walked back the new PF2e dying rules in day 0 errata 🤔
Luke: "because you the GM over tweaked your pathfinder 2 adventure"
Me: "in my defense I came into game session and got told 'so we were talking and since there's a good chance that covid is going to confine us to our homes we'd like you to wrap up the campaign next week so that we can start a new one online.' So I spent a week trying to figure out how to have a satisfying ending with a campaign that was suppose to still have months of content and several level ups left. How has I suppose to know that a severe fight against a solo creature would end in a tpk for my 4 players?"
inform the party that the campaign is Hardcore.
a. start with 5 level-0 characters (per player)
b. no death saves
c. zero hp = dead
d. no short or long rests
e. heal ONE hp per day
f. successful medicine roll, character can add con bonus to the days hp healed.
g. only cleric, druid, sorcerer, warlock and wizard can cast spells... no other classes get any spell casting abilities, spell like ability.
h. elf, dwarf and gnome have low-light vision. nobody has dark vision.
I. upon advancement to the next level, character adds 1 + con mod hit points. no tank characters.
I literally JUST TPK'd my party last night on our very first session, very first combat XD I seriously didn't try at all but I rolled 4 nat20's on them and they got wrecked. It's kinda hard for me to hide the results on FGU lol. Since it was a literally the very beginning and my group are people I play with all the time, we all agreed to do a Final Destination style reset under the agreement the reset will not happen again. We all laughed so hard and we don't really take TPK's very seriously.
Our group had a TPK from a Yuan-ti Pit Master with everyone failing all our con saves (we didnt hit 13, our rolls were literall dirt that game) and getting knocked out by Merrshualks Slumber... Not very fun but it was fair in my eyes.
As someone who absolutely hates puzzles with a passion and who had only EVER known them to take 4+ hours, block content, have no fail condition, and ensure 90% of the players take “long” bathroom breaks
And had begged his dm to STOP including them. Only to get a “some people may like them” bs excuse (none of the people at my table do).
I understood.
What about the idea of a god, or godlike being ie the Raven Queen or a very powerful devil, intervening at a cost?
Ghostwalk. Best way to go...
Every 2 weeks? I wish. I can only get them together once every 3 months.
Time for a Valhalla campaign...
I once engineered a campaign around a TPK at the beginning of Session 1, and it's been in my back pocket ever since.
The group I'm currently DM'ing TPK'd at the end of the Death House, which was resolved by as yet unknown party dragging their unconscious behinds out. That's not something I'd want to use again, but for context it was being run as a one-shot which turned into "Well you mob seem to be enjoying this. I don't have time to run a full campaign, but if you want I could probably hammer some sort of pseudo-campaign together out of one-shots". Having someone drag them out (one of a couple of scenarios I had lined up depending on what they did in the house) served a couple of purposes in that the one who didn't want to continue with his one-shot character could get left behind, it got them out of Barovia, and served as a plot hook for the over-arching campaign in terms of who saved them and why. Admittedly not the most elegant approach, but it got the job done.
.
On the upside, the group is effectively captive (we work FIFO, so it's not like we're doing much else with our evenings whilst on swing), which at least makes scheduling easier.
My late best friend and I played D&D forever. We started playing in Junior High and our last gaming session was when he was 52. When he became too sick because of GOD DAMN cancer! Sorry. We talked about D&D adventures. The one we talked about the most was a TPK we had when his tough ass fighter named Fred Fright missed his saving throw. We were in 9th grade in the late 1970ies. Our 5th thru 8th people were so Monty Hall I am not kidding. If you did not do 4-40 damage you ain't s**t! In the early part of Dungeon, we slayed Asmodeus and Demogorgon together. We were up against some gawd super lich and his 50 golems. We were down to the last IRON GOLUM. All he needed was to beat a 4 on a save to half the poison damage.!!!!! The DM held his ground. For 40 plus years every time something stupid would happen we would laugh like idiots. Damn! Another 3!!!!! His final words for me were. I guess I rolled another 3. That 5 years ago. I still laugh and cry. Years later. If done right. A TPK can flavor to D&D adventures.
Look Luke, what's the number one rule of TTRPGing..... It's supposed to be fun for everybody and if it's not fun don't play.
TPKs Are not fun for everybody!!!!!
As you suggest talking through your feelings of possible sadness, disappointment, confusion and anger over the loss of their characters after a TPK means if you have to do that you're not having fun.
.... I've never once heard a group say ...yeah, that was brilliant and fun the way we TPK let's create up new characters so we can TPK again!!!..🤣😳 NEVER!
How to avoid TPKs - honestly, don't play systems where that is a likely outcome. Superhero games. World of Darkness. Or Paranoia if that's your bag baby (having every PC die 6 times is pretty unlikely, at least in a single session).
I'm sure there are fantasy examples too, but quite honestly the whole obsession with "if my character can't die then it's not fun" has never really worked for me. It takes at least an hour in most game systems to create a 1st level (or equivalent) character. You should have a reasonable expectation that having spent that long on 'homework', that you at least get to see them survive for a while. Character death is a PITA for a lot of types of campaigns. Want to weave in prophecies? Oops, the PC that was supposed to be a savior just died to a random kobold attack. How about if you like your players to plan ahead for their character's long term goals? Too bad a few dice rolls wasted all that.
I'm not saying PCs should never die. I'm saying that even an individal PC death should be a rare occurrence, and if you have a TPK at your table, then either your players deliberately ignored all the hints you gave them (you did do that, right) or you screwed up. And why should the players have to suffer for _your_ screw up?
Of course, that said, resurrection magic is usually available in most fantasy RPGs. It is not without its own pitfalls, but IMO it is a better option than restarting the game, making new 15th level dudes, or rewinding. (Capturing is fine, but obviously some enemies are just not plausibly going to do that).
I've played DND for somewhere four years, and I experienced a TPK on my very first game as a player. The DM simply had a blip in time and we got to go at it again. I'm not a fan of that approach either. I want death to be a real threat.
In ~2.5+ years of me DMing for a consistent party and a few scattered one-shots, there's never been a TPK. We've come close on several occasions, and my terrified table has asked me what would happen if we TPKed. To be honest, I've never thought about what would happen. I want the game to be a scary challenge at times, but I want them to "win." I'm on my players' side, and my players have made it very clear that they want to play games that have happy endings. I calculate their strengths and weaknesses carefully: I've never had to fudge rolls to protect them. There's always a way to succeed the encounter, be it combat, social, or exploration. As long as there's verisimilar narrative explanation for the party to avoid a TPK, it won't happen.
I prefer continuing the same campaign with new characters at the same level as the old one. We've done it different ways, though. TPKs are rare in my experience.
not related
but the character sheet in the video's picture has 184 hp, as a level 15 character with a d8 hit die
meaning he has a +5 con and the tough feat, and HE STILL DIED!!!
damn
You let your players make new characters at the same level and continue on with the campaign as if nothing happened? How is that, functionally, any different from re-loading the save point or just capturing the PCs or the bad guys 'fail a morale check' and flee right before a TPK? Why would you rob the big bad of his hard earned victory? Sometimes, the dark prophecy wins out. As a neutral arbiter, just narrate their march to world domination and the aftermath of the PCs failure. I have a whole campaign world where the Lich Overlord holds the world in his iron grip of peace with an undead hegemony. And another where the gates to hell were opened and allowed to spew forth demons to rampage the countryside for a century. Both of which make for far more interesting places to adventure in than the lovely paradises that came about after PC victory.
I mean, I do mitigate a potential TPKs when it might be unsatisfying or undeserved; but, once the PCs are on the way to the final showdown, the kid gloves are off, and it can get brutal (in a loving and caring, psuedo-balanced encounter sort of way).
I also think that in some ways, with a TPK, you need to handle it, with how much the person is invested in that character, in mind. Does a person want to keep playing that character? Did they have a lot of fun with that character? Was that character very important to them? “You wake up lying on an alter, stained glass visages of your religious figures surround you, and your otherwise cloudy mind is vividly and vibrantly fixed on a memory of you standing before your god. You have only simple white robes. “You my child, are not done with this world yet, so i am giving you a second chance”
Of course you cant do this with an entire party of beloved characters, and you might want to provide an single god’s choice ability score bump of +2 to offset the sting of losing any loot the character had.
If you had an entire party of such beloved characters… you might want to have the most religious one (a cleric or paladin… etc) come back, and then the have to “collect” the new PCs to go find remnants of the old ones to bring them back
I have done a few TPKs, I think magic items should not be safe and a few have backfired on the PCs. A PC used a wand of fireballs because he thought it was an arrow..... Oooops!
Good on you for mentioning other methods even if you're not a fan of them. I'm personally not a fan of the mindset that "without death, there are no stakes" because this suggests the only thing that matters in your game is the lives of the PCs, I don't think I need to explain why this is bad. Sometimes this mindset is accompanied by "there is no difficulty". But this is a fundamental misunderstanding about game design. Difficulty is the required effort to succeed. Punishing is the amount of effort lost by failing. You can still have a difficult game when it isn't very punishing. Just look at games like Elden Ring. It's not very punishing since you never lose anything other than some currency (that you can get back), but it's difficult enough to make people give up entirely. It also neglects to honor the time you and your players spend at the table. If you spend an hour or two on an encounter that ends in a TPK, that is already a big loss of time. Then you have to make new characters, and do the whole introduction/quest thing again. You've easily wasted your entire game session right there with nothing to show for it. I think for a game, that's already pretty high stakes. For many people, losing 4 hours of progress in a game can be enough for them to just give up entirely.
Personally I use Baldurs Gate logic to basicly turn back time before tpks. If at least one person survives then we just continue the game.
DM: Well, you got TPK, what do you think happened
Players: You killed us you jerk
Im coming up with a historical fantasy naval campaign set in the Caribbean and if I end up TPKing them (at least at sea anyway) I plan of having them awaken to a man saying "Do ya fear death? Do ye fear that dark abyss?" Im going to give my players the opportunity to make a deal with Davy Jones in exchange for their lives. Only a one time thing though.
Never had a TPK, running is always an option. I was a sole survivor once though. I use that character as an npc sponsoring parties that will rescue his friends. They are imprisoned in Hell! Groups have yet to volunteer.
Our rule is that if you lose a character, individually or as a TPK, you get a new character that is one level lower than the one you lost. That keeps them roughly in the same zone as before, they can keep up with the BBEG and rest of party, but they have to work for it, and it makes them RP their player as a new guy rather than just picking up the same dynamic as before.
It is a decision you need to talk over at Session Zero, so it doesn't blindside anybody. Having a good Session Zero saves so many tears later.
I had a session 2 TPK with my players. They just made every stupid choice in Curse of Strahd. Because it was so early i homebrewed undead/aberration versions of their characters that Strahd had Frankensteined together and they then worked for him. I put in a karma system called redemption/corruption that they could use to regain their humanity or embrace their new dark nature and gain better monster abilities/upgraded monster race. It wound up being a blast until the rona fucked it all.
The Revised Pathfinder dying rules haven't changed. They posted a clarification about it.
Won't always work but,
TPK happens- PCs are dead. Have players role up new characters that are living in the future where the PCs have died. The new PCs mission is to revive the dead ones and send them back. Could be a one shot. Allows players to see their impact this helps with investment, the time away from their PCs could allow some of the anger to dissipate, feeds into the plot already established, and allows you to keep a normal schedule.
Reason other adventures can't help the bbg has become immensely more powerful to where the chances to undo his damage is miniscule and he's done something that needs undoing but can only be stopped in the past.
This can only happen once as by taking on the mission the new PCs are showing their hand and the body's of other adventures and the old PCs will be destroyed. Extra points if many people were involved in giving up there power to send back original PCs.
"We have play dates as adults"
You presume a full group of 11-14 year olds doesn't exist (It doesn't)
It was all a Dream. Especially when a single 'CR3' monster TPKs the 5th level party.
Their sponsor, an Archmage clones them. Sends them back for revenge, and to get their stuff back.
i've only killed 3 PCs as a DM and they were all my brother's characters :'( . i play a version of DnD that's deadlier than 5e but i still feel kinda bad about it because i love my brother
How many players do I need to run a session, just 2. I can only see myself rewinding to redo something is where if I as the GM horribly messed up in how I was running something and that is what led to their demise. Otherwise it's a conversation of "are we still feeling this campaign and want to make new characters" or "do we want to do something new?"
Relatable; I too like solving puzzles. I too am bad at creating the. Frustrating.
I ask what they want to do. Do they wanna start over, new characters, or just reset the encounter. It’s a game so I don’t care what happens ultimately so long as I’m not bored, in video games, you can do whatever. Personally it’s up to what the PCs tell me they want. I just take the consensus
I personally let righteous kills stand, the times when I’m cool with resets and captures is when other PCs or guest were attempting to sabotage the other PCs for whatever reason. I’ve had players who wanted to be assholes to the party and didn’t try when all hands were needed on deck, or a guest player comes in, does the stupidest shit possible, gets everyone killed then doesn’t come the next week. In scenarios like that I endorse do overs or captured. Though I will do the consensus either way
i have an npc that will teleport in and yank the bodies after the fight if everyone dies so that they can come back to life. the kick? He is a warlock whos NOT very good with that kind of magic so they always come back at either a slightly lower level or just have a lot of penalties for a period of time. i want death to mean someting but i dont want my players to be disheartned.
Okay dang that chess move about feelings was pretty slick ♟️♟️
The mage that hired you is disappointed in your failure. As such he has resurrected your party; as payment he's sending you on a job.
Title kinda misleading. I Expected someone talking about life after death.
2nd comment, honestly during 0 level campaign I recommend them to make 2nd character is in the same profession ect.
Has anyone ever made TWO characters. Switch off play in the campaign so they don't get too far ahead from each other in levels. If one dies the other could step in a little later and be of relatively the same level.
It depends on the character I'm using or how much I care about it.
The only time that I am dead set on everyojne being at the game table is for session 1. After that, sessions will only run if more than half the players can make it.
Create a new character of the same level? No way! Those levels have to be earned or they are worthless. No medals for turning up in my games.
2:43 You PANSIES and your emotions! I don't think you've ever forced me to pause a video so I could finish laughing before this.
...and I feel better having shared my emotions on the subject 😂
Pretty clever on Luke's part. Loved it
@DM Lair Paizo explain dying rule in day one errata, it is like it was before Remaster
restart a couple of levels lower, with limited magic items and the first task being to retrieve some of their stuff and maybe even find one PC that lived
Well, if it's near the end or the end of the campaign/game then, you lose. Simple.
But doesnt allowing a player to miss out tell them that its okay to miss out? I guess either way, everyone loses.
People reload save? Wow thats....just upsetting to hear. Thats so lame
I signed up for the newsletter a few weeks ago and haven't been getting emails, what do I do?
Have you done a video on how to handle a session where people have to miss? How should the dm handle it? Character is just "gone." Other PCs play basic attacks etc. What if two players are gone?
My rule on that is that they could "check out" if there's a reasonable way for them to leave the party temporarily, and this can usually be arranged if they let me know in advance. But if they just don't show, the character is still there and the remainder of the players get to decide what they do. I'll veto acts that are obviously exploitative like having the character give all their gear away, but otherwise the absent player just has to live with the consequences of what was done in their absence. Miss enough sessions and the character effectively becomes a disposable NPC.
part of me loves that you talk in p2e or just-not-D&D terms now
Actually love the idea of a new party going to rescue the old heroes!
How do you handle a TPK? A hearty jig on the game table.
Maybe it will happen in...4 hours? Oh no
I forced a tpk on players because now hear me out first lol they didn't know that they were gonna play a mythic campaign and when they died they talked to death and she gave them a boon (basically a fighters second wind) and then they gained their first mythic lvl as death brought them back to complete their mission and one she gave them we still playing it so we will see if it works