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Fun thing to consider about that river crossing example: Sometimes it is the PCs who want to roleplay out every little detail, so they too can be guilty of screwing up the pacing.
As a completely new DM, who's started running a campaign for two groups of friends about a month ago - this is EXTREMELY helpful. Despite the fact everybody seem to enjoy our gaming time, I couldn't brush off the feeling that something is off. And after watching this vid I'm basically sure that it's the pacing which I cant maintain. So now I know where to improve (and even the means to do that). Thank you very much, Luke!
Hey new DM! First off, congrats on taking on the challenge of being a Dungeon/Game Master, damn is it fun :D Second, I offer up the one resource (book) that has helped me the most in prepping and running my game. Sly Flourish's Return of the Lazy Dungeon Master. It's basically a bunch of checklists that help flesh out the different components of running a game. Creating secrets and clues, designing awesome locations, choosing relevant magic items, etc. It's not an expensive or long book and it really changed how it feels to prep. I went from feeling like prep was some amorphous, insurmountable thing that I just had to grind through until I reached some point where it felt like maybe I'd prepped enough?? to feeling like I'm ready EVERY time I sit down to run. Can't recommend enough. Weirdly ad sounding pitch aside, I hope you have a long and fun journey as a GM!!
"Remove the dead space between meaningful choices" is just about the best new roleplaying truism I've heard in a long long while. Everyone should write that verbatim on a post-it note and stick it top-center on their GM screens, right next to "be a fan of your players" and "show no fear"
To make shopping more interesting have things happen during it. Have interesting npcs and events, use it to create links to other quests. Also if there is a shopping sesh in the next game have the players send a list to you beforehand. If there are any special requests it can be prepared and if there are mundane items, that can be handwaved as assumed to be got.
Right there with you on the shopping thing. About to start a new campaign since our current DM is (very) burnt out and one of the things i keep wondering about is how to improve shopping. One thing I'm excited to try is greatly limiting inventory and making their actual STOCK become a meaningful set of choices. I'm tired of "you go to x store, so pretty much everything on this table on page y". And then we whip out our books and grind the session to a halt while we figure out what item on what table is gonna be a good investment. No I'm thinking, "why is every small town shop an entire Walmart? Wouldn't they realistically only sell a handful of different things that actually matter to the surrounding area?" So wish me luck. I think it'll open the door to actual conversation with the shopkeeper over their few items (some might even be homebrew to fit the scene), thus turning a shopping grind into a social interaction that actually provides meaningful choice insofar as what couple items would make sense to purchase and what the town can afford to stock and why.
I use this very same method. Have 2-5 items for sale and that is it. They should be unique to offset a large list of options but it reduces time spent, quality vs. quantity, and if every town/city has a different set of items it really helps differentiate each store. If it's something like potions...limit them so PCs have to decide who is buying it and who might have to sit out. 5e is a resource management game and putting these help with both pacing and a bit of healthy stress on the players.
I use this strategy too sometimes. But usually (especially when they're in a more populated area) I just tell the players to decide what they want to buy between sessions. Then when the session starts, they just get all that stuff, minus the gp, and we're ready to go. Takes less than a minute.
Bartle's chart is a nice pillar of design and if you know your players you can really cater to them, but don't forget that the chart and the theory was primarily used for MMOs, this means that there are some adaptations and things you should observe when implementing it, as in an MMO you should strive for (debatably) a balance of all 4, on your game table you have a much smaller group and should try to cater to them primarily, that means you'll probably often use one or two of those very sparingly compared to the others
Pacing seems to be THE thing that makes or brings down a game session for me. I am constantly working on it. Also, don't feel bad that the river crossing sticks in your brain. We (one of my play groups) had a DM that threw a similar thing at us but it was stairs... no traps or encounters just stairs. We still make fun of that game and how most of us left over that one session lol. There were several issues but those stairs were the deciding factor.
I've had so many games where the first hour is my players wanting to see what they can buy at the local shop. I always feel like there's got to be something cool to buy. But I frequently have that cool item be so expensive that no one can afford it. Hopefully this works to make my players want to go adventuring to afford the super expensive thing.
Couple tricks I use in my prep to better my pacing: The intro is a challenge or a fight, it starts on the right foot (sometimes it doesn't make sens, but most of the time I can fit something), I prep alot of scene (things that happens) and at the last minute I keep my best 4-6 ideas and scrap the rest. Every small arc I prep like thig : 1 guardian (something prevent the heros to go forward), Puzzle/RP (players have to solve a problem or talk their way out), Set back (something bad or dangerous happen, it's usually not a fight), conflict (usually your fighty fighty time), reward (loot level up story goes forward). It's usually putting up really good story beats.
Well researched and well presented. I feel like decision paralysis is the biggest killer of pacing in many of the groups I am in or DM. So giving more hints to DMs to help speed up what we can control is great.
These comments all underscore how important it is to know your players and what's important to them! No right or wrong, just different play styles and motives. The pacing advice works for all, and ensuring meaningful options and decisions is key. If the scene -- no matter if it's combat, shopping, long rest, puzzle, exploration, socializing -- doesn't further the plot or the character development, fast forward through narration or jump cuts. Thanks for another helpful video, Luke! 🎉
To really nail pacing, you should also do some studying on story arc and novel pacing. Using a story structure like the one out of "Save the Cat" (Blake Snyder) is a great framework to help you create a campaign. You don't need to use every piece of the beat sheet, but following the gain and loosening of tension will really help you nail the story pacing in addition to the tricks suggested here to hammer home individual session pacing. :)
Meaningful... Every Session, Every Encounter, Every Mechanical Bits, Every RP activity, Every Class Feature, Every Talent, Every Resource Spent, Every Action Taken in Combat, Every Sacrifice, Every Props, Every BG Music, Every Single Choosen Word Meaningful = having the potential to stick with us at any level, emotional, exciting, immersive, satisfactory
The start of the book "Red Phoenix" talks about the smell/taste of stepping off the plane in Korea (many years ago). It was very accurate. I experienced exactly what the author wrote when I stepped off the plane years later. Smells that are so intense that they activate our sense of taste make experiences intense in real life and the experience of that intensity seems to carry over in any oral story where it is invoked.
Considering why people might feel like they should include scenes like the one you mentioned about crossing the river, I think people notice that the choices players make in those situations _could_ be meaningful for the reasons you described, and don't want the players to metagame by giving them information their characters wouldn't know by only asking how the players do things if what they choose will impact a later encounter. An example could be the GM asking the players what their marching order is during a dungeon dive, while not having asked that before during other parts of the dungeon, setting the players on edge and making them act more carefully than they otherwise would have. I've done things similar to this myself. The mistake here is assuming that the characters act differently when you indirectly reveal danger or similar is coming by asking them to make a choice vs. when you just narrate what happens further. *No,* the characters should be assumed to act the same, equally carefully or competently, just in the former case this is shown explicitly. You can even forgo asking players how they conduct themselves and *still* have them run into danger, in cases where you don't think that their choices would significantly influence the situation, as long as you make sure that _how_ they run into danger is then narrated as optimally for them as possible. TL;DR If you don't ask players how their characters act, you should assume they acted optimally (for that situation) rather than less than optimally than when they are given the choice of how to act. Only punish (in the loose, story sense) their actions when their actual choices led to those consequences. This lets you gloss over situations that ultimately have no stakes and improve the pacing of the game while avoiding letting (intentional or no) metagaming making the player's actions inconsistent between situations.
You asked for it so have a novel. I run short node based adventures and a mega dungeon (abomination vaults). Some tricks for pacing: 1. Alternate high tension and low/rising tension scenes. Especially good for nodes - in a dungeon you can get a similar effect by emphasizing exploration between encounters, you want to start with relief they won the battle and then use the exploration to ratchet up the tension through environmental cues. Can be done on a macro scale too: for abomination vaults I have them alternate dungeon runs with mandatory downtime in town. In more tactical games like PF2e you can add also use this in combat - you use monsters actions to make the characters situation worse rather than do damage and only when the situation is bleak so you switch to trying to kill players. For example a dark vision enemy can knock out the players light source and then grab drag and separate the party. 2. Superimpose a five room dungeon structure on the session (you need longer sessions for this). You basically make each scene one of the rooms in a five room dungeon structure. Very difficult to do but fantastic when you can pull it off.
I dunno, crossing that river looks pretty dangerous, the raft might look stable but that rope... it needed to be changed 3 seasons ago and looks pretty weathered, we might be tasked to replace it for the river master. If we don't pass the survival check we might get swept down the river, and with some athletics checks we might stay on or fall into the river... one of the players might drown, or we might find a cave at the end of the journey on the raft that holds a CR 11 baddie. So, this all falls under group and team building because it means that they have to solve a problem together.
A DM should be careful not to fall into the feeling that each session needs to achieve X and always hurry the players along. Let the game take the time it needs to, especially outside of battle.
Talking about the Bartlett study, you said how DMs and players DO NOT need to use Bartlett's study in their game. They could use your advice or experience or their own. I started playing using pregen characters and just running the same dungeon over and over. IT WAS SO MUCH FUN! We didn't care about an overarching story, or the individual characters, we just wanted the treasure hidden somewhere in the Dungeon. The game has grown SO much since it was released to everyone that playing that original game again seems ...ew. But that experience is still important to me and my style of running the game. All the experience I have from playing since I was 10 has made my games enjoyable to me and my players. I love your videos because it gives me a different perspective and I farm for ideas. Like how my players are going to need to cross a river, one at a time, on the back of a giant turtle, but make an exciting, fun, memorable experience that will either provide a solution to some other events or otherwise just be an interesting diversion so players don't burn out on combat or political intrigue or whatever.
I think the story is completely fine and just some nice travel window dressing...if the scene is like 2 minutes lol. He said it was 30 minutes..which is insane.. Even 10 minutes would be crazy. A simple "You come to a raging river, since youve gone off the main road there is no bridge for miles, how do you cross?" The druid turns into a giant turtle, the dm describes how each player rides his back, and then you move on. Lets the druid feel like a druid and be helpful, and adds a little dressing to make the travel feel like it happened. 2 minutes bam.
Gotta know your characters. Even my most combat focused groups loving having little moments to rp which fording a river is perfect for. If your group just wants to be at rhe dungeon, then its best to just say while describing their travels that they forded a river lol. Edit: ok, I have got to stop commenting before I finish a video....
I havent watched yet but this already feels targeted. I am a forever DM. Got to play once in a short lived campaign and the DM loved to do shit like having all characters succeed on a DC15 Dex check or fall into a river, where they would need to be rescued and lost random Items the longer the rescue took. On the list is also getting up random walls and shit where you have to roll for climbing up a shakey ladder. Its such a slog and not fun at all especially if you have no tools and then roll like shit
As a DM, I can say that my players actually have a ton of fun shopping around town and talking to their favorite NPCs. Roleplaying their mannerisms and antics, as well as having an NPC explain to the players precisely how current events affect them personally, builds a kind of believable rapport between the PCs and the world. Everything feels much more grounded and real. It's a bit more work for me in terms of playing the characters, but it also keeps them from steam rolling through the story.
I am that player/DM that enjoys shopping. I think the important thing is that you don't JUST make it about shopping. A lot of my player's favorite NPCs are shopkeeps who they see during shopping runs. At the same time, it's a good time to let players catch up on events that have happened potentially due to their actions. Maybe even find new leads. It's one thing to just buy stuff and move on. It's another thing to stop in, buy some supplies and stop in with your favorite magic item shopkeep to ask them for their opinion on a weird plot critical item. Or to engage them with descriptions of the various local differences in food or clothing. Really, making it engaging mostly involves other important or interesting things happening at the same time. In an extreme example, I did have one player who love love LOVED shopping and would get very annoyed if they couldn't get told what /exactly/ their rations had, or if they couldn't haggle and deal with the other shops looking for deals or find the local flavors like what kind of artisans they had in town so they could buy a rug from this particular town that they could take with them until selling it somewhere else or putting it in their base. That player was a bit much, but they went a long way in helping me realize that like everything, there are degrees to everything. Some people can take A LOT of shopping, some players can't take any and prefer it just be done before the session even starts. So I think that goes in nicely with the point of "knowing your players" in the video.
My group always asks to go shopping, too. But I also make it multi-purpose. Shopkeepers are part of the Town, have families, drop rumors and secrets, give advice, and more. At one point the thieves guild were running a protection racket, and picked on a shop keeper that the PCs cared about, and that started a multi-session arc to wipe out the local thieve’s guild, and so much more. Now, the PCs go back often to check on the various shops and make sure everyone is safe. It's allowed them to feel like they are part of the town.
So, I do think that the river crossing scene was a bit egregious. However, I definitely think that there's room in the game for moments that aren't presenting the players with a meaningful choice. In my own game, I like to take time during play to focus on at least one quiet moment for the party - sitting around the campfire enjoying their evening meal, packing up their wagon before departing for their next destination, arriving at the town's local tavern and taking a moment of reprieve with ale and stew, etc. The reason I do this is that it gives the player characters time to interact amongst themselves. Time to engage in banter, idle chit-chat, or having deep heart-to-hearts discussing the events they've experienced so far. I find that, when I do this, it makes the characters feel so much more real than if we just moved from exciting moment to exciting moment. I've both run and played in so many games where the party might have had a similar goal in the beginning of the campaign, but after Adventure 2, they really only stuck together because they were expected to for the game to proceed. There was no sense of comradery, no sense of companionship developed between the characters; at least, not one that didn't feel a bit contrived. I find it so much more engaging and exciting from a story-telling perspective to have those characters actually have built their relationships through interaction, both in times of stress and in times of peace. I love hearing the narrative elements the characters choose to discuss, and hearing how each character responds to that discussion based on their own idiosyncrasies. I love watching meaningful friendships develop between not only party members, but NPCs. I love the moments when a player character expresses concern about something related to their backstory that's more pressing to them than the current quest at hand, and watching the characters AND the players choose to assist them on that venture; not because they felt like they had to, but because they genuinely wanted to. I totally understand the desire to play a more high-octane, action-driven game. Being a moster-killing machine on an epic quest the likes of something out of an action movie is a lot of fun! However, it's not fair to discredit a more methodical pace as bad story telling - for some, getting lost in a character and feeling fully immersed in a rich fantasy world is the far more rewarding experience. You don't have to take my word for it - I will happily point you to the 30+ people I run multiple games for every single week as a paid professional who will tell you otherwise :)
thanks Luke! this video is awsome. this is the single most important video to watch for any DM! Made me counscious of why some of my session didnt bring as much excitement as other somethimes.
Once on a game session, our group was tasked to go to a temple, and kill all the bandits that invaded it. We go there, spot the bandits, and the group spent about 20 Minutes debating what to do. I was really bored, attacked one of the bandits, killed it. My group immediately started apologizing to the bandits for my attack, restrained my character, and the DM had to stop the session so he could prep the entire background of all the 20 bandits because the group wanted to be friends with them. It developed into a cool plot afterwards, but I will never forget the 20 Minutes of nothing and how absurd was the whole situation.
I just had a session, where players needed to solve a puzzle (there was a hint in one of the adjacent rooms) and they almost solved it on their own. Then, the proceeded through the ruins defeating enemies, getting treasure, taking a little damage here and there, and twice major damage, where two of them fell unconscious after completely obliterating a strong foe, and clearing the ruins entirely. I didn't stop, slow, or rush them. I just let them go at the pace they wanted to go. If they wanted to split the party, I allowed it. I thought for sure the reward at the end would be a powerful weapon, not the cosmetic item the boss dropped. After the session, I asked my players how they felt the session went. They said it was the best session so far. I was surprised, as I had not designed the ruins to be anything really special. I thought it was generic and a little above what they could handle. I use the FFD20 system with slightly modified classes to get rid of having to roll natural 20s twice (for confirmation), with an MP system instead of spell slots, and a totally overhauled/homebrewed weapon and armor system. It took me like 1.5 years to make the majority of the this, but it has been worth every moment. In short, quality of life systems go a very long way in the end. Combat is snappy and I try to move things along to save players' time. I think they know I value their time, and there is plenty of things to do, rather than searching a room for a hidden switch or door for real life minutes.
Remember the random arrow attack in Apocalypse Now? Great example of random encounters to get, or keep, the party moving forward without being a decisive, or logistically draining, encounter. Can also be used to give a little "pep" if the session is starting to drag. Also can make for a later side quest.
I am running a homebrew horror game in 5e right now and its got a strict time limit. Party has 30 days to crods the continent and hit certain churches on the way. I add dead time during count downs to make my players squirm. So dead time can be used positively but 80% of the time you're totally right.
I totally agree with your example, but in my last session of dming (and it was 18 years since the last one!) i asked my players the walking order while on the road, if they have a particular formation, how they plan their rest (close or far from the road, fire, etc), and how they define the first who take guard turn. I had'nt much things happening in this travel, because they was close to Arabel and nothing meaningfull happened until third night, but asking how they did it make me know how i can interact with them, knowing why they did it this way is also usefull (but we didn't roleplaying anything until the rogue heard something in the night!) So my point, is: ask "boring and not meaningfull" things can be usefull later, but shouldn"t take a long time
About proactive players, there's some things to be adressed. I always was the master of my table, so when my players went proactive I loved it, but recently, just a week ago, I came back as a player in one of their sessions, and one of the fellow players rushed for like a whole hour of exploration, always one or two room ahead of the rest who were trying to roleplay, forcing the Master to split the attention and, overall, bring the pace down thanks to someone trying to "go fast". Tl;Dr, make sure your "proactive player" doesn't just want to keep the loot for her/himself before anyone reaches the next room, and that the player isn't leaving space for the rest to A) Do their meaningful choices too, B) To actually roleplay their decisions a bit.
Three is the smallest number of occurrences for which it is possible to make a prediction about a pattern: until something happens twice you don't have a pattern, and when it happens the third time you get to know if you're right
I am a bit stuck in a side quest that I am writing. Basically, my pg get stucked in a settlement in a swamp. They have to chase a runaway undead, but moster (mostly big beasts from the swamp) started attacking the village and they cannot rent a boat or find a guide until the crisis is reverted. Somehow I'll make clear the mosters/great beasts are attacking because a piece of the undead remained in the village and attracts them. So they should find it. Now: as far as meaningful it might be as a side quest (they have to "clear" their path from the village and maybe help the locals, you know...not letting them being eaten alive or stuff...it's mind of the right thing to do) I think I should insert something else to progress the story and making something more than just treasure hunting for body parts. The second issue it easy to fix: the body part has some weird power and you have to fight. But maybe I should spice the battle bit. The first one is less obvious. So I was trying to pick some good advices 😊
I've used taste in description. Generally I use it to depict something that goes beyond smell. The steam from the bubbling stew is so thick, you can already taste the beef and carrots.
An odd enemy to pacing that I’ve encountered enough to think it’s not a one-off is the players not being in the right space for the session the DM has planned. I was a player in a game where we spent a session in a slow slog of exploring the city. Come to find out the DM had almost entirely prepped for us to go meet the King and his court. So they were vamping adventure hooks and NPCs all session but there wasn’t any quest they had on hand we could’ve gone on. I’ve experienced a number of games where someone wasn’t feeling the game that night (hard time getting in character, personal life stuff, pillar of play they don’t love) and it ground the plot to a halt because they didn’t contribute like they usually did. Then the next week they were right back to form. Adapting content or working around the real people playing the game can be a real killer of momentum. Everyone has a bad night though. The truck often is to getting the next week to kick off like last session didn’t happen.
Hey, Luke! Wanna play in my newest campaign? It's about crossing a river on a turtle! Don't worry about stats. Where we are going you won't need any stats.
Through The Breach calls your "slow time"... "Dramatic Time". Sounds a lot more fun and engaging that way. That's when tense drama is happening, and lots of decisions are being made
Shopping trips can be good if they are focused, completed quickly, and add to the story in a meaningful way. Kind of like Link "take this, it will help you on your journey". Think - "convenience store". When it becomes the Monty Python Cheese Shop skit, or worse (shop, then rob, then fight, then get arrested and dragged off to jail, etc.), it is probably good to re-establish the game expectations. Using downtime for such shopping can be useful. PCs want this, GM can roll on tables or do it by fiat, the coins are deducted, the items are granted. Can do quick chat for any negotiation of price, special orders, or pick up additional information like rumors. Of course, if the actual goal is to rob or otherwise screw over the shopkeep, then that would need to be considered - else it is surely a quick narrative scene.
LUKE!! Try running a game of GammaWorld (TSR post-apocalyptic sci-fi). Tasting things is critical. There are lots of tasting perks, etc. Then you can get your taste sense descriptions in every room!!!
Things like the river crossing scene often happen when the DM is under prepared and is afraid they don't have enough content to fill the session. Also some DMs are afraid that if they just skip over a river crossing now, it will give away the fact that something is about to happen when they don't in some future session. They might actually be right about that, but it's OK. If you normally skip over stuff like that, the moment you don't, the effect is to ratchet up the tension level. The players know something is about to happen, but they don't know what, and all the sudden, the order in which they cross is... a meaningful choice.
Some interesting points, but I have players that are proactive and do not need to be asked "what do you do", these are the BEST players to have. As a GM I refrain from asking "What do you do" and stay in narration-only form. but that's our Session-0 rules and we stay in-character, no out-of-character talk while playing, as part of our pact... Yes, you want to emulate a style of movie pacing and yes it's impossible to have those traditional 8-second movie clip-pace, but trying to make the game flow fast as possible. If the player is indecisive during his action, then the player is skipped to the next active player... this increases tension... and players adapt by actually thinking about their actions while other players are active, and then they know what they want to do when their turn comes up... I know it sounds mean, but the players know/adapt and they discover the game is much more exciting and spontaneous. Anyhow, thats my 2 cents.
Taste *does* apply outside of eating things...but it is very closely related to smell: you might get a taste of salt on an ocean breeze. One opportunity to describe taste in a more traditional sense, though, is in the sources of water the PCs are using. Unless they are creating it magically, they should get some sense of how water tastes differently in different regions they travel through.
This is a great video! And a topic I believe is greatly underrepresented in the D&D community. I really appreciate your effort in putting together this information as well as the hard work you and your team did in getting this video out. I am a DM and have struggled in the last year to really quantify and/or verbalize what I was missing in the game, but your explanation of “Dead Space,” as well as how to get rid of it, was exactly what I needed! Thank you so much! And bacon is very delicious…
18:10 Who the hell says that? I think they're not just bad for players because they literally last one session, but also for dungeon masters because they never really look like they'll last that long during preparation and I don't know how you could end one early and still have time for the adventure ahead.
The easiest way to get taste into a scene description is as a result of smell... e.g. walking into a murder scene and tasting the coppery tang of all the spilled blood...
Ya the river crossing would be bad if nothing happened. When traveling if my party isn’t going to run into anybody I use the song Happy Trails so the party knows they are just traveling, bump-a-deeda.
Real shame, because someone falling off and getting swept downstream, a fight with a giant croc, or an ambush on the far side of the stream would have been cool
Amazing video as always! Yeah as a dm I am a big fan of cutting out unnecessary stuff that doesn’t need to be played through during the session. I too want to get to the exciting stuff!
I agree mundane things like obstacles during travel seem, well, boring, but like anything there's a way to do it right. The river thing sounds boring because there wasn't any stakes, nothing to really engage the players, and because it just existed without anything to contrast it with. The first two are solved easily by making the players problem solve crossing the river. The bridge is out, and the turtles are congregating on the far beach. Maybe they decide to send the druid across in wild shape to ask the turtles for help, which takes a few roles. Maybe the turtles are slick, requiring balance or acrobatics checks to get accross safely. Whatever the case, letting the players decide on a path and challenging them appropriately for it is half the fun of the adventure! The last part, contrast, is tricky, but the way I solve that is that every so often, I will dip the players toes into another plane, where the obstacles they may find could be very different. This will highlight how different the material plane is in comparison, making those moments add a lived in feel to the world. Maybe they find a door to a demonic bazaar, where demons hawk all kinds of wares to extraplanar travelers, but the party needs to pay attention to prices/quality as different planes value and make items differently. Maybe a shadowy figure on the road offers to repay the parties kindness by shortening their travel, and when the party agrees he sends them to the plane of shadow, which technically would shorten the travel time but adds the obstacle of escaping the plane once they travel the remainder of the distance. Maybe they're chasing a nethling, who is trying to return home. Maybe it's the same river, after a war has destroyed the local ecosystem. Extraplanar travel isn't for every table, but there are ways to transform these smaller, more mundane tasks like shopping or travel into things that make your players feel like their characters really live in this world. The thing that gives LotR it's GOAT fantasy status is that Tolkien really made his worlds feel like you could go and visit these places, to make the people seem like real individuals living in a magical world far away.
Also please remember that pacing is not only about the structure of the game but about how we talk as humans. Different regional backgrounds have subtle differences in pacing and the use of silence. This has a considerable impact if like me you DM games for people who come from different countries or backgrounds or have different native languages (even if you speak the same language).
What are some tips for pacing when it comes to newer and younger players when they are faced with choices they over analyze and freeze up - which greatly slows down the pace. I feel like if I lead them or give them tips on how to think, I am basically making the choices for them.
Here's something to do with pacing that I don't know how to manage, I'm running Planescape, there's a gate town that makes a point of waiting to encourage the players to take action. How do I make the characters bored without making the players bored? I'm afraid they'll just say 'we'll just wait 24 hours', if they do that, I really want them to feel the slog
Ah, river based issues. I once had a similar experience, except in addition to taking a half hour to cross, there was also a half hour debate on whether it was actually a river or if it was a stream. Because by definition, rivers are at least whatever feet wide, or something... ...I quit after that session...😂
K so I'm not actually hearing dont roleplay crossing a river. What I'm hearing is put in some undercurrents and a precarious bridge so it matters how they get across the river. Can't swim/wade because undercurrent will drown them. Gotta roll good stats against the broken bridge. And when all else fails, the bridge was a spanner all along.
Maybe swimming without the turtle was dangerous? Still, once the easy button had been pressed, the DM should have skipped ahead. Keeping the pace: First, have a session zero and set expectations. This will save a lot of time down the road. Know the rules. Make rulings, and keep your nose out of the books. Keep the spotlight moving around. Preparing is the key element to keep pacing moving forward. If you aren't prepared, it can cause you to drag your feet. Always have a couple random encounters prepared. I skip ahead when it is clear the party will win a combat (unless it's an important one). I'll narrate what happens rather than play it out in rounds. I do not let roleplaying go on for a long time unless it's important. I'll step back and give the gist of what happens. Long distance overland travel - don't do the 6-8 encounters per day. Let the players get there. If you didn't plan any encounters, don't roll them up on the fly. Have stat blocks bookmarked ahead of time. I have them on separate tabs on my laptop. Don't roll for everything! Let skill checks pass automatically. My DM makes us roll 30 perception checks a night and it's ridiculous. As a player: Be familiar with your character's abilities. Don't dodge plot hooks for extended periods of time and intentionally derail the game. Listen and pay attention, and take notes.
If the river crossing had roles for danger spots, that actually would've been a fun role play. Even if nothing happens, I like occasionally thrown in treacherous terrain travel. It's honestly fluff... BUT the story of the river sweeping away the wizard is comical
I had my players role play crossing a ravine on a log...because if anyone had flubbed a roll and ended up in the fog at the bottom, they WOULD have been attacked. No one did at all, so it may have seemed a little pointless from their point of view, since they never met the sleeping fey down there...
Good points but Luke, Luke, Luke... These don't happen all the time but, as a GM I enjoy a good shopping session. Why? I GET TO PLAY MORE NPCS TO INTERACT WITH THE PLAYERS!
- The windblown sand has made its way into your mouth, you taste the grit with disgust. - you can taste the blood dripping from your broken nose. You smile anyway. Victory will be yours. - The smell of lemons is so strong, here, it registers on your tongue.
GM- "You find a Bacon Store, selling all sorts of bacon, from maple, to apple smoked, and they even have a bacon pack for busy adventurers." Luke- "Now I'm gonna buy this, but we aren't spending a shopping session-" GM- "They even have swords of bacon." Luke- "What?"
axis (short i), singular; axes (long e), plural. nice try tho. I made a terrible dungeon once that was filled with random rooms with random mechanics and nothing made sense. i thought it would be cool but it was just random nonsense. The players hated it and I learned a valuable lesson. One of many.
Crossing the River story... First, I hate it for that GM when they see this video! Actually, it sounds like something I would do. Hear me out! It would be a first adventure, likely just to get a little playtime in at the end of a session zero and see how the players (and their characters) are going to interact. I would also have them do skill checks to ride the turtle. Anyone who passes the skill check now knows how to ride the turtle and doesn't have to check again when crossing a "normal" body of water. Without mentioning it, I'll get to see if anyone who fails is smart enough to tie in next time, or better yet practice in safe water when they have time and learn how to ride the turtle before having to try again in an emergency. Or, if they don't have a turtle druid, how do they cross? Chop down a tree bridge? Build a raft? Explore up and down the river for a better place to cross? Send someone (and who) to swim across by themselves with one end of a rope? Something else? It's a way for them to figure out how to approach such a challenge so we don't waste time on it later in the game.
Not defending it but maybe they wanted to give a chance for some role play and social development for the players, possibly. Probably just a learning moment for the DM.
So how to you get your players out of the decision paralysis? Do you set a timer or does a monster just attack? I have had players (11 to 13 year olds) geek out as they try to figure out what monster is moving in the shadows. One game session, the kids argued who should climbed down into a cavern. They saw a portal and a monster and discuss the myriad of things I may have planned and that was the ENTIRE 100 minute game session!!! They seem to be enjoying it, but it is boring me to death.
Difficult terrain + some fantasy activity is good, fight or treasure or natural traps. Difficult terrain + limited time is norm, so at least you can spend resources to save time. But just difficult terrain... "so, guys without atletics and with heavy/medium armor cannot pass here. What you do?"
I am curious how you handle pacing with a party that does a lot of intra party socializing. My current game has the players RPing amongst themselves and NPC "tag alongs" a lot. Our downtime (deadtime) is often filled with the PCs talking, chatting, discussing events, planning, telling jokes, laughing, etc... And while it's super fun, I do worry my DM is getting bored of us sometimes (he says he's not).
If the DM is happy with that, or says they are, then that's not a problem! As a DM, if the players are invested so much in the world that they want to immerse themselves further in their characters I would be elated. It means the world crafted feels alive enough to enjoy interacting with the other players/characters simply because it's fun to be in the moment.
Genuinely doubt the DM is bored. My favorite moments are when my player characters are interacting and chatting with each other. It gives me lots of ideas 😈
I had a DM whose pacing was incredibly fast. He transitioned from one encounter to another without knowing the intentions of his players, so he left his encounters unresolved for some of us. Thanks for the video. This will help me avoid doing that.
One counter argument I will point out for the "pointless river crossing" encounter is the following: If you as a DM make players play out something that would normally feel meaningless, they might expect that something is going to happen. If my players say they want to go up a ladder, and I specify that I want them to tell me in which order, and how, they go up this ladder; that seems suspicious. They are going to think that because I am making them playout this meaningless scene, surely there must be something that will happen, and so they should be ready, and think about their strategies while going up this ladder. Sure it might be meaningless, but if I only make them playout "meaningless" scenarios when it actually matters, they will never be surprised when those meaningless scenarios actually hold more than meets the eye. Obviously you don't want to play out every monotonous choice, but I think if its reasonably plausible that something might happen during this scene, such as a river crossing where the players are exposed and separated, it increases the tension of the scene and makes it feel more immersive. In this real situation of a river crossing, players wouldnt know what to expect and might even feel anxious about being left alone on one side of the river. After safely crossing, they would all feel some relief, and feel as if they had successfully crossed a river. I would take the opportunity to spice up the scene for this intent. Telling the players who are left alone that they hear some sounds in the forest behind them, them noticing that they will be alone for quite a while since the crossing is slow, and other sorts of colourful flavour to bring that scene to life. I think it's definitely possible to make a monotonous scene like that feel more exciting. Because if I only ever play out the monotonous situations that have encounters, then they will always be ready for it, and there won't be any tension because normally, I wouldnt make them play out this scene.
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Might have missed it but was there a river and did it take long to cross it?
Fun thing to consider about that river crossing example: Sometimes it is the PCs who want to roleplay out every little detail, so they too can be guilty of screwing up the pacing.
Or one player
As a completely new DM, who's started running a campaign for two groups of friends about a month ago - this is EXTREMELY helpful. Despite the fact everybody seem to enjoy our gaming time, I couldn't brush off the feeling that something is off. And after watching this vid I'm basically sure that it's the pacing which I cant maintain. So now I know where to improve (and even the means to do that). Thank you very much, Luke!
Hey new DM! First off, congrats on taking on the challenge of being a Dungeon/Game Master, damn is it fun :D Second, I offer up the one resource (book) that has helped me the most in prepping and running my game. Sly Flourish's Return of the Lazy Dungeon Master. It's basically a bunch of checklists that help flesh out the different components of running a game. Creating secrets and clues, designing awesome locations, choosing relevant magic items, etc. It's not an expensive or long book and it really changed how it feels to prep. I went from feeling like prep was some amorphous, insurmountable thing that I just had to grind through until I reached some point where it felt like maybe I'd prepped enough?? to feeling like I'm ready EVERY time I sit down to run. Can't recommend enough.
Weirdly ad sounding pitch aside, I hope you have a long and fun journey as a GM!!
"Remove the dead space between meaningful choices" is just about the best new roleplaying truism I've heard in a long long while. Everyone should write that verbatim on a post-it note and stick it top-center on their GM screens, right next to "be a fan of your players" and "show no fear"
To make shopping more interesting have things happen during it. Have interesting npcs and events, use it to create links to other quests. Also if there is a shopping sesh in the next game have the players send a list to you beforehand. If there are any special requests it can be prepared and if there are mundane items, that can be handwaved as assumed to be got.
Shopping list is a great idea. I will most definitely be recommending that at my table!
Right there with you on the shopping thing. About to start a new campaign since our current DM is (very) burnt out and one of the things i keep wondering about is how to improve shopping. One thing I'm excited to try is greatly limiting inventory and making their actual STOCK become a meaningful set of choices. I'm tired of "you go to x store, so pretty much everything on this table on page y". And then we whip out our books and grind the session to a halt while we figure out what item on what table is gonna be a good investment. No I'm thinking, "why is every small town shop an entire Walmart? Wouldn't they realistically only sell a handful of different things that actually matter to the surrounding area?" So wish me luck. I think it'll open the door to actual conversation with the shopkeeper over their few items (some might even be homebrew to fit the scene), thus turning a shopping grind into a social interaction that actually provides meaningful choice insofar as what couple items would make sense to purchase and what the town can afford to stock and why.
I use this very same method. Have 2-5 items for sale and that is it. They should be unique to offset a large list of options but it reduces time spent, quality vs. quantity, and if every town/city has a different set of items it really helps differentiate each store.
If it's something like potions...limit them so PCs have to decide who is buying it and who might have to sit out. 5e is a resource management game and putting these help with both pacing and a bit of healthy stress on the players.
I use this strategy too sometimes. But usually (especially when they're in a more populated area) I just tell the players to decide what they want to buy between sessions. Then when the session starts, they just get all that stuff, minus the gp, and we're ready to go. Takes less than a minute.
Bartle's chart is a nice pillar of design and if you know your players you can really cater to them, but don't forget that the chart and the theory was primarily used for MMOs, this means that there are some adaptations and things you should observe when implementing it, as in an MMO you should strive for (debatably) a balance of all 4, on your game table you have a much smaller group and should try to cater to them primarily, that means you'll probably often use one or two of those very sparingly compared to the others
At a lowish level, i can see making river crossing into a short group skill challenge or just fast individual skill checks.
Pacing seems to be THE thing that makes or brings down a game session for me. I am constantly working on it. Also, don't feel bad that the river crossing sticks in your brain. We (one of my play groups) had a DM that threw a similar thing at us but it was stairs... no traps or encounters just stairs. We still make fun of that game and how most of us left over that one session lol. There were several issues but those stairs were the deciding factor.
I've had so many games where the first hour is my players wanting to see what they can buy at the local shop. I always feel like there's got to be something cool to buy. But I frequently have that cool item be so expensive that no one can afford it. Hopefully this works to make my players want to go adventuring to afford the super expensive thing.
Couple tricks I use in my prep to better my pacing: The intro is a challenge or a fight, it starts on the right foot (sometimes it doesn't make sens, but most of the time I can fit something), I prep alot of scene (things that happens) and at the last minute I keep my best 4-6 ideas and scrap the rest. Every small arc I prep like thig : 1 guardian (something prevent the heros to go forward), Puzzle/RP (players have to solve a problem or talk their way out), Set back (something bad or dangerous happen, it's usually not a fight), conflict (usually your fighty fighty time), reward (loot level up story goes forward). It's usually putting up really good story beats.
Well researched and well presented. I feel like decision paralysis is the biggest killer of pacing in many of the groups I am in or DM. So giving more hints to DMs to help speed up what we can control is great.
These comments all underscore how important it is to know your players and what's important to them! No right or wrong, just different play styles and motives.
The pacing advice works for all, and ensuring meaningful options and decisions is key. If the scene -- no matter if it's combat, shopping, long rest, puzzle, exploration, socializing -- doesn't further the plot or the character development, fast forward through narration or jump cuts.
Thanks for another helpful video, Luke! 🎉
To really nail pacing, you should also do some studying on story arc and novel pacing. Using a story structure like the one out of "Save the Cat" (Blake Snyder) is a great framework to help you create a campaign. You don't need to use every piece of the beat sheet, but following the gain and loosening of tension will really help you nail the story pacing in addition to the tricks suggested here to hammer home individual session pacing. :)
Meaningful... Every Session, Every Encounter, Every Mechanical Bits, Every RP activity, Every Class Feature, Every Talent, Every Resource Spent, Every Action Taken in Combat, Every Sacrifice, Every Props, Every BG Music, Every Single Choosen Word
Meaningful = having the potential to stick with us at any level, emotional, exciting, immersive, satisfactory
The start of the book "Red Phoenix" talks about the smell/taste of stepping off the plane in Korea (many years ago). It was very accurate. I experienced exactly what the author wrote when I stepped off the plane years later. Smells that are so intense that they activate our sense of taste make experiences intense in real life and the experience of that intensity seems to carry over in any oral story where it is invoked.
I have the book but never finished it.
Considering why people might feel like they should include scenes like the one you mentioned about crossing the river, I think people notice that the choices players make in those situations _could_ be meaningful for the reasons you described, and don't want the players to metagame by giving them information their characters wouldn't know by only asking how the players do things if what they choose will impact a later encounter. An example could be the GM asking the players what their marching order is during a dungeon dive, while not having asked that before during other parts of the dungeon, setting the players on edge and making them act more carefully than they otherwise would have. I've done things similar to this myself.
The mistake here is assuming that the characters act differently when you indirectly reveal danger or similar is coming by asking them to make a choice vs. when you just narrate what happens further. *No,* the characters should be assumed to act the same, equally carefully or competently, just in the former case this is shown explicitly. You can even forgo asking players how they conduct themselves and *still* have them run into danger, in cases where you don't think that their choices would significantly influence the situation, as long as you make sure that _how_ they run into danger is then narrated as optimally for them as possible.
TL;DR If you don't ask players how their characters act, you should assume they acted optimally (for that situation) rather than less than optimally than when they are given the choice of how to act. Only punish (in the loose, story sense) their actions when their actual choices led to those consequences. This lets you gloss over situations that ultimately have no stakes and improve the pacing of the game while avoiding letting (intentional or no) metagaming making the player's actions inconsistent between situations.
You asked for it so have a novel. I run short node based adventures and a mega dungeon (abomination vaults). Some tricks for pacing:
1. Alternate high tension and low/rising tension scenes. Especially good for nodes - in a dungeon you can get a similar effect by emphasizing exploration between encounters, you want to start with relief they won the battle and then use the exploration to ratchet up the tension through environmental cues. Can be done on a macro scale too: for abomination vaults I have them alternate dungeon runs with mandatory downtime in town. In more tactical games like PF2e you can add also use this in combat - you use monsters actions to make the characters situation worse rather than do damage and only when the situation is bleak so you switch to trying to kill players. For example a dark vision enemy can knock out the players light source and then grab drag and separate the party.
2. Superimpose a five room dungeon structure on the session (you need longer sessions for this). You basically make each scene one of the rooms in a five room dungeon structure. Very difficult to do but fantastic when you can pull it off.
I dunno, crossing that river looks pretty dangerous, the raft might look stable but that rope... it needed to be changed 3 seasons ago and looks pretty weathered, we might be tasked to replace it for the river master. If we don't pass the survival check we might get swept down the river, and with some athletics checks we might stay on or fall into the river... one of the players might drown, or we might find a cave at the end of the journey on the raft that holds a CR 11 baddie.
So, this all falls under group and team building because it means that they have to solve a problem together.
A DM should be careful not to fall into the feeling that each session needs to achieve X and always hurry the players along. Let the game take the time it needs to, especially outside of battle.
Talking about the Bartlett study, you said how DMs and players DO NOT need to use Bartlett's study in their game. They could use your advice or experience or their own. I started playing using pregen characters and just running the same dungeon over and over. IT WAS SO MUCH FUN! We didn't care about an overarching story, or the individual characters, we just wanted the treasure hidden somewhere in the Dungeon. The game has grown SO much since it was released to everyone that playing that original game again seems ...ew. But that experience is still important to me and my style of running the game. All the experience I have from playing since I was 10 has made my games enjoyable to me and my players. I love your videos because it gives me a different perspective and I farm for ideas. Like how my players are going to need to cross a river, one at a time, on the back of a giant turtle, but make an exciting, fun, memorable experience that will either provide a solution to some other events or otherwise just be an interesting diversion so players don't burn out on combat or political intrigue or whatever.
the purpose of roleplaying is to play an interesting fantasy.....crossing a mundane river is not XD
I think the story is completely fine and just some nice travel window dressing...if the scene is like 2 minutes lol.
He said it was 30 minutes..which is insane..
Even 10 minutes would be crazy.
A simple "You come to a raging river, since youve gone off the main road there is no bridge for miles, how do you cross?"
The druid turns into a giant turtle, the dm describes how each player rides his back, and then you move on.
Lets the druid feel like a druid and be helpful, and adds a little dressing to make the travel feel like it happened. 2 minutes bam.
Gotta know your characters. Even my most combat focused groups loving having little moments to rp which fording a river is perfect for.
If your group just wants to be at rhe dungeon, then its best to just say while describing their travels that they forded a river lol.
Edit: ok, I have got to stop commenting before I finish a video....
Crossing mundane river with angry fishes, water elemental and ork archers on boats? Maybe))
I disagree, it can be nice to roleplay the mundane to get to just experience being that character in any situation to really feel what they feel.
I havent watched yet but this already feels targeted. I am a forever DM. Got to play once in a short lived campaign and the DM loved to do shit like having all characters succeed on a DC15 Dex check or fall into a river, where they would need to be rescued and lost random Items the longer the rescue took. On the list is also getting up random walls and shit where you have to roll for climbing up a shakey ladder. Its such a slog and not fun at all especially if you have no tools and then roll like shit
As a DM, I can say that my players actually have a ton of fun shopping around town and talking to their favorite NPCs. Roleplaying their mannerisms and antics, as well as having an NPC explain to the players precisely how current events affect them personally, builds a kind of believable rapport between the PCs and the world. Everything feels much more grounded and real. It's a bit more work for me in terms of playing the characters, but it also keeps them from steam rolling through the story.
I am that player/DM that enjoys shopping.
I think the important thing is that you don't JUST make it about shopping. A lot of my player's favorite NPCs are shopkeeps who they see during shopping runs. At the same time, it's a good time to let players catch up on events that have happened potentially due to their actions. Maybe even find new leads.
It's one thing to just buy stuff and move on. It's another thing to stop in, buy some supplies and stop in with your favorite magic item shopkeep to ask them for their opinion on a weird plot critical item. Or to engage them with descriptions of the various local differences in food or clothing. Really, making it engaging mostly involves other important or interesting things happening at the same time.
In an extreme example, I did have one player who love love LOVED shopping and would get very annoyed if they couldn't get told what /exactly/ their rations had, or if they couldn't haggle and deal with the other shops looking for deals or find the local flavors like what kind of artisans they had in town so they could buy a rug from this particular town that they could take with them until selling it somewhere else or putting it in their base.
That player was a bit much, but they went a long way in helping me realize that like everything, there are degrees to everything. Some people can take A LOT of shopping, some players can't take any and prefer it just be done before the session even starts. So I think that goes in nicely with the point of "knowing your players" in the video.
My group always asks to go shopping, too. But I also make it multi-purpose. Shopkeepers are part of the Town, have families, drop rumors and secrets, give advice, and more. At one point the thieves guild were running a protection racket, and picked on a shop keeper that the PCs cared about, and that started a multi-session arc to wipe out the local thieve’s guild, and so much more. Now, the PCs go back often to check on the various shops and make sure everyone is safe. It's allowed them to feel like they are part of the town.
So, I do think that the river crossing scene was a bit egregious.
However, I definitely think that there's room in the game for moments that aren't presenting the players with a meaningful choice.
In my own game, I like to take time during play to focus on at least one quiet moment for the party - sitting around the campfire enjoying their evening meal, packing up their wagon before departing for their next destination, arriving at the town's local tavern and taking a moment of reprieve with ale and stew, etc.
The reason I do this is that it gives the player characters time to interact amongst themselves. Time to engage in banter, idle chit-chat, or having deep heart-to-hearts discussing the events they've experienced so far. I find that, when I do this, it makes the characters feel so much more real than if we just moved from exciting moment to exciting moment. I've both run and played in so many games where the party might have had a similar goal in the beginning of the campaign, but after Adventure 2, they really only stuck together because they were expected to for the game to proceed. There was no sense of comradery, no sense of companionship developed between the characters; at least, not one that didn't feel a bit contrived.
I find it so much more engaging and exciting from a story-telling perspective to have those characters actually have built their relationships through interaction, both in times of stress and in times of peace. I love hearing the narrative elements the characters choose to discuss, and hearing how each character responds to that discussion based on their own idiosyncrasies. I love watching meaningful friendships develop between not only party members, but NPCs. I love the moments when a player character expresses concern about something related to their backstory that's more pressing to them than the current quest at hand, and watching the characters AND the players choose to assist them on that venture; not because they felt like they had to, but because they genuinely wanted to.
I totally understand the desire to play a more high-octane, action-driven game. Being a moster-killing machine on an epic quest the likes of something out of an action movie is a lot of fun!
However, it's not fair to discredit a more methodical pace as bad story telling - for some, getting lost in a character and feeling fully immersed in a rich fantasy world is the far more rewarding experience. You don't have to take my word for it - I will happily point you to the 30+ people I run multiple games for every single week as a paid professional who will tell you otherwise :)
thanks Luke! this video is awsome. this is the single most important video to watch for any DM! Made me counscious of why some of my session didnt bring as much excitement as other somethimes.
Once on a game session, our group was tasked to go to a temple, and kill all the bandits that invaded it. We go there, spot the bandits, and the group spent about 20 Minutes debating what to do. I was really bored, attacked one of the bandits, killed it. My group immediately started apologizing to the bandits for my attack, restrained my character, and the DM had to stop the session so he could prep the entire background of all the 20 bandits because the group wanted to be friends with them. It developed into a cool plot afterwards, but I will never forget the 20 Minutes of nothing and how absurd was the whole situation.
If I could meet Pumat Sol at Kohl's, I think I would enjoy shopping more. Pumat Kohl's?
I just had a session, where players needed to solve a puzzle (there was a hint in one of the adjacent rooms) and they almost solved it on their own. Then, the proceeded through the ruins defeating enemies, getting treasure, taking a little damage here and there, and twice major damage, where two of them fell unconscious after completely obliterating a strong foe, and clearing the ruins entirely. I didn't stop, slow, or rush them. I just let them go at the pace they wanted to go. If they wanted to split the party, I allowed it. I thought for sure the reward at the end would be a powerful weapon, not the cosmetic item the boss dropped.
After the session, I asked my players how they felt the session went. They said it was the best session so far. I was surprised, as I had not designed the ruins to be anything really special. I thought it was generic and a little above what they could handle.
I use the FFD20 system with slightly modified classes to get rid of having to roll natural 20s twice (for confirmation), with an MP system instead of spell slots, and a totally overhauled/homebrewed weapon and armor system. It took me like 1.5 years to make the majority of the this, but it has been worth every moment.
In short, quality of life systems go a very long way in the end. Combat is snappy and I try to move things along to save players' time. I think they know I value their time, and there is plenty of things to do, rather than searching a room for a hidden switch or door for real life minutes.
Remember the random arrow attack in Apocalypse Now? Great example of random encounters to get, or keep, the party moving forward without being a decisive, or logistically draining, encounter. Can also be used to give a little "pep" if the session is starting to drag. Also can make for a later side quest.
I am running a homebrew horror game in 5e right now and its got a strict time limit. Party has 30 days to crods the continent and hit certain churches on the way. I add dead time during count downs to make my players squirm. So dead time can be used positively but 80% of the time you're totally right.
I totally agree with your example, but in my last session of dming (and it was 18 years since the last one!) i asked my players the walking order while on the road, if they have a particular formation, how they plan their rest (close or far from the road, fire, etc), and how they define the first who take guard turn.
I had'nt much things happening in this travel, because they was close to Arabel and nothing meaningfull happened until third night, but asking how they did it make me know how i can interact with them, knowing why they did it this way is also usefull (but we didn't roleplaying anything until the rogue heard something in the night!)
So my point, is: ask "boring and not meaningfull" things can be usefull later, but shouldn"t take a long time
About proactive players, there's some things to be adressed. I always was the master of my table, so when my players went proactive I loved it, but recently, just a week ago, I came back as a player in one of their sessions, and one of the fellow players rushed for like a whole hour of exploration, always one or two room ahead of the rest who were trying to roleplay, forcing the Master to split the attention and, overall, bring the pace down thanks to someone trying to "go fast".
Tl;Dr, make sure your "proactive player" doesn't just want to keep the loot for her/himself before anyone reaches the next room, and that the player isn't leaving space for the rest to A) Do their meaningful choices too, B) To actually roleplay their decisions a bit.
Three is the smallest number of occurrences for which it is possible to make a prediction about a pattern: until something happens twice you don't have a pattern, and when it happens the third time you get to know if you're right
I am a bit stuck in a side quest that I am writing.
Basically, my pg get stucked in a settlement in a swamp. They have to chase a runaway undead, but moster (mostly big beasts from the swamp) started attacking the village and they cannot rent a boat or find a guide until the crisis is reverted. Somehow I'll make clear the mosters/great beasts are attacking because a piece of the undead remained in the village and attracts them. So they should find it.
Now: as far as meaningful it might be as a side quest (they have to "clear" their path from the village and maybe help the locals, you know...not letting them being eaten alive or stuff...it's mind of the right thing to do) I think I should insert something else to progress the story and making something more than just treasure hunting for body parts. The second issue it easy to fix: the body part has some weird power and you have to fight. But maybe I should spice the battle bit.
The first one is less obvious. So I was trying to pick some good advices 😊
Really enjoy all the points you are making. Lot of anxiousness with the delivery and edits but I get it, the internet is mean.
I'm sensing frustration regarding the crossing of a river by means of a turtle
I've used taste in description. Generally I use it to depict something that goes beyond smell.
The steam from the bubbling stew is so thick, you can already taste the beef and carrots.
FYI - that kind of a diagram is called a Punnett Square (square defined by 2 binary axes).
An odd enemy to pacing that I’ve encountered enough to think it’s not a one-off is the players not being in the right space for the session the DM has planned.
I was a player in a game where we spent a session in a slow slog of exploring the city. Come to find out the DM had almost entirely prepped for us to go meet the King and his court. So they were vamping adventure hooks and NPCs all session but there wasn’t any quest they had on hand we could’ve gone on.
I’ve experienced a number of games where someone wasn’t feeling the game that night (hard time getting in character, personal life stuff, pillar of play they don’t love) and it ground the plot to a halt because they didn’t contribute like they usually did. Then the next week they were right back to form.
Adapting content or working around the real people playing the game can be a real killer of momentum. Everyone has a bad night though. The truck often is to getting the next week to kick off like last session didn’t happen.
Hey, Luke! Wanna play in my newest campaign? It's about crossing a river on a turtle! Don't worry about stats. Where we are going you won't need any stats.
Thank for the video. You're a GM Genius. I think you have some of the best GM advice and guidance anywhere. Thanks a bunch.
"It's all about those interesting choices"! Gale, of Monarch's Factory.
Through The Breach calls your "slow time"... "Dramatic Time". Sounds a lot more fun and engaging that way. That's when tense drama is happening, and lots of decisions are being made
Great content! I've been struggling with this in my game.
Shopping trips can be good if they are focused, completed quickly, and add to the story in a meaningful way. Kind of like Link "take this, it will help you on your journey". Think - "convenience store".
When it becomes the Monty Python Cheese Shop skit, or worse (shop, then rob, then fight, then get arrested and dragged off to jail, etc.), it is probably good to re-establish the game expectations.
Using downtime for such shopping can be useful. PCs want this, GM can roll on tables or do it by fiat, the coins are deducted, the items are granted. Can do quick chat for any negotiation of price, special orders, or pick up additional information like rumors. Of course, if the actual goal is to rob or otherwise screw over the shopkeep, then that would need to be considered - else it is surely a quick narrative scene.
I feel like this is not the first time I have heard the turtle story. A memorable gaming moment for all the wrong reasons.
LUKE!!
Try running a game of GammaWorld (TSR post-apocalyptic sci-fi). Tasting things is critical. There are lots of tasting perks, etc. Then you can get your taste sense descriptions in every room!!!
Pacing is so important! Thank you for this video.
Things like the river crossing scene often happen when the DM is under prepared and is afraid they don't have enough content to fill the session. Also some DMs are afraid that if they just skip over a river crossing now, it will give away the fact that something is about to happen when they don't in some future session. They might actually be right about that, but it's OK. If you normally skip over stuff like that, the moment you don't, the effect is to ratchet up the tension level. The players know something is about to happen, but they don't know what, and all the sudden, the order in which they cross is... a meaningful choice.
Some interesting points, but I have players that are proactive and do not need to be asked "what do you do", these are the BEST players to have. As a GM I refrain from asking "What do you do" and stay in narration-only form. but that's our Session-0 rules and we stay in-character, no out-of-character talk while playing, as part of our pact... Yes, you want to emulate a style of movie pacing and yes it's impossible to have those traditional 8-second movie clip-pace, but trying to make the game flow fast as possible. If the player is indecisive during his action, then the player is skipped to the next active player... this increases tension... and players adapt by actually thinking about their actions while other players are active, and then they know what they want to do when their turn comes up... I know it sounds mean, but the players know/adapt and they discover the game is much more exciting and spontaneous. Anyhow, thats my 2 cents.
Taste *does* apply outside of eating things...but it is very closely related to smell: you might get a taste of salt on an ocean breeze. One opportunity to describe taste in a more traditional sense, though, is in the sources of water the PCs are using. Unless they are creating it magically, they should get some sense of how water tastes differently in different regions they travel through.
This is a great video that puts issues I've had with my game into words! I swear to never leave my players treading in open water!
This is a great video! And a topic I believe is greatly underrepresented in the D&D community. I really appreciate your effort in putting together this information as well as the hard work you and your team did in getting this video out. I am a DM and have struggled in the last year to really quantify and/or verbalize what I was missing in the game, but your explanation of “Dead Space,” as well as how to get rid of it, was exactly what I needed! Thank you so much! And bacon is very delicious…
So then, do you never do like the camping thing or setting up and talkimg around the campfire? Or who is going to take first watch ?
Pacing really is the most important DM job
great tips for starting Game masters and groups that prefer combat over social encounters, puzzels, exploration and Lore building..
18:10 Who the hell says that? I think they're not just bad for players because they literally last one session, but also for dungeon masters because they never really look like they'll last that long during preparation and I don't know how you could end one early and still have time for the adventure ahead.
Now my players are gonna have to roleplay when they cross The Valley of 1000 Rivers.
new dungeon idea. Chill out at Kohl's. The pcs are trapped in a demonic shopping trip at Kohl's. They can't murder the NPCS.
Hey thanks @theDMLair, you have so much helpful content for DM'ing, i really appreciate all of it
The easiest way to get taste into a scene description is as a result of smell... e.g. walking into a murder scene and tasting the coppery tang of all the spilled blood...
Luke: "the only thing slower than this turtle is this game.... hey, video idea!"
Ya the river crossing would be bad if nothing happened.
When traveling if my party isn’t going to run into anybody I use the song Happy Trails so the party knows they are just traveling, bump-a-deeda.
Real shame, because someone falling off and getting swept downstream, a fight with a giant croc, or an ambush on the far side of the stream would have been cool
Lol I feel like this is the 3rd or 4th time we've heard the turtle story. Who hurt you?
Amazing video as always! Yeah as a dm I am a big fan of cutting out unnecessary stuff that doesn’t need to be played through during the session. I too want to get to the exciting stuff!
I agree mundane things like obstacles during travel seem, well, boring, but like anything there's a way to do it right.
The river thing sounds boring because there wasn't any stakes, nothing to really engage the players, and because it just existed without anything to contrast it with.
The first two are solved easily by making the players problem solve crossing the river. The bridge is out, and the turtles are congregating on the far beach.
Maybe they decide to send the druid across in wild shape to ask the turtles for help, which takes a few roles. Maybe the turtles are slick, requiring balance or acrobatics checks to get accross safely. Whatever the case, letting the players decide on a path and challenging them appropriately for it is half the fun of the adventure!
The last part, contrast, is tricky, but the way I solve that is that every so often, I will dip the players toes into another plane, where the obstacles they may find could be very different. This will highlight how different the material plane is in comparison, making those moments add a lived in feel to the world.
Maybe they find a door to a demonic bazaar, where demons hawk all kinds of wares to extraplanar travelers, but the party needs to pay attention to prices/quality as different planes value and make items differently. Maybe a shadowy figure on the road offers to repay the parties kindness by shortening their travel, and when the party agrees he sends them to the plane of shadow, which technically would shorten the travel time but adds the obstacle of escaping the plane once they travel the remainder of the distance. Maybe they're chasing a nethling, who is trying to return home. Maybe it's the same river, after a war has destroyed the local ecosystem.
Extraplanar travel isn't for every table, but there are ways to transform these smaller, more mundane tasks like shopping or travel into things that make your players feel like their characters really live in this world. The thing that gives LotR it's GOAT fantasy status is that Tolkien really made his worlds feel like you could go and visit these places, to make the people seem like real individuals living in a magical world far away.
Also please remember that pacing is not only about the structure of the game but about how we talk as humans.
Different regional backgrounds have subtle differences in pacing and the use of silence. This has a considerable impact if like me you DM games for people who come from different countries or backgrounds or have different native languages (even if you speak the same language).
What are some tips for pacing when it comes to newer and younger players when they are faced with choices they over analyze and freeze up - which greatly slows down the pace. I feel like if I lead them or give them tips on how to think, I am basically making the choices for them.
Reduce the number of options to at most 3, and put them on a timer, maybe 5 minutes...
Here's something to do with pacing that I don't know how to manage, I'm running Planescape, there's a gate town that makes a point of waiting to encourage the players to take action. How do I make the characters bored without making the players bored? I'm afraid they'll just say 'we'll just wait 24 hours', if they do that, I really want them to feel the slog
Ah, river based issues. I once had a similar experience, except in addition to taking a half hour to cross, there was also a half hour debate on whether it was actually a river or if it was a stream. Because by definition, rivers are at least whatever feet wide, or something...
...I quit after that session...😂
Luke... this is one of the most important videos you have made.
Good job, here's some Bacon and Beer 🥓🍻
K so I'm not actually hearing dont roleplay crossing a river. What I'm hearing is put in some undercurrents and a precarious bridge so it matters how they get across the river. Can't swim/wade because undercurrent will drown them. Gotta roll good stats against the broken bridge. And when all else fails, the bridge was a spanner all along.
Maybe swimming without the turtle was dangerous? Still, once the easy button had been pressed, the DM should have skipped ahead.
Keeping the pace:
First, have a session zero and set expectations. This will save a lot of time down the road.
Know the rules. Make rulings, and keep your nose out of the books.
Keep the spotlight moving around.
Preparing is the key element to keep pacing moving forward. If you aren't prepared, it can cause you to drag your feet. Always have a couple random encounters prepared.
I skip ahead when it is clear the party will win a combat (unless it's an important one). I'll narrate what happens rather than play it out in rounds.
I do not let roleplaying go on for a long time unless it's important. I'll step back and give the gist of what happens.
Long distance overland travel - don't do the 6-8 encounters per day. Let the players get there. If you didn't plan any encounters, don't roll them up on the fly.
Have stat blocks bookmarked ahead of time. I have them on separate tabs on my laptop.
Don't roll for everything! Let skill checks pass automatically. My DM makes us roll 30 perception checks a night and it's ridiculous.
As a player:
Be familiar with your character's abilities.
Don't dodge plot hooks for extended periods of time and intentionally derail the game.
Listen and pay attention, and take notes.
First 6 min will fix 100% of my gameplay.😅 I AM the biggest pacing problem of everything I run.😅😅😅
Thank you❤
I… don’t see any of the links to research in the description like you mentioned in the video.
Is it bad that when I saw the picture of the chest I immediately thought "Mimic" before even seing it as a chest?^^
If the river crossing had roles for danger spots, that actually would've been a fun role play. Even if nothing happens, I like occasionally thrown in treacherous terrain travel. It's honestly fluff... BUT the story of the river sweeping away the wizard is comical
I had my players role play crossing a ravine on a log...because if anyone had flubbed a roll and ended up in the fog at the bottom, they WOULD have been attacked. No one did at all, so it may have seemed a little pointless from their point of view, since they never met the sleeping fey down there...
Good points but Luke, Luke, Luke...
These don't happen all the time but, as a GM I enjoy a good shopping session. Why? I GET TO PLAY MORE NPCS TO INTERACT WITH THE PLAYERS!
Luke I would love for you to play in my homebrew campaign, Its called Kingdom of 1000 Rivers, we play it in real time for realism. Love your videos!
- The windblown sand has made its way into your mouth, you taste the grit with disgust.
- you can taste the blood dripping from your broken nose. You smile anyway. Victory will be yours.
- The smell of lemons is so strong, here, it registers on your tongue.
1000th like, wohoo! Also, this hits the nail on the head. The game I am in right now has had quite a slow start for these very reasons.
Great video. I was looking to read the articles, but I'm not seeing them in the notes. Any chances someone can point me in the right direction.
GM- "You find a Bacon Store, selling all sorts of bacon, from maple, to apple smoked, and they even have a bacon pack for busy adventurers."
Luke- "Now I'm gonna buy this, but we aren't spending a shopping session-"
GM- "They even have swords of bacon."
Luke- "What?"
Now I'll go and make a full session on crossing a river! 😂
axis (short i), singular; axes (long e), plural. nice try tho.
I made a terrible dungeon once that was filled with random rooms with random mechanics and nothing made sense. i thought it would be cool but it was just random nonsense. The players hated it and I learned a valuable lesson. One of many.
Crossing the River story... First, I hate it for that GM when they see this video!
Actually, it sounds like something I would do. Hear me out! It would be a first adventure, likely just to get a little playtime in at the end of a session zero and see how the players (and their characters) are going to interact. I would also have them do skill checks to ride the turtle. Anyone who passes the skill check now knows how to ride the turtle and doesn't have to check again when crossing a "normal" body of water. Without mentioning it, I'll get to see if anyone who fails is smart enough to tie in next time, or better yet practice in safe water when they have time and learn how to ride the turtle before having to try again in an emergency.
Or, if they don't have a turtle druid, how do they cross? Chop down a tree bridge? Build a raft? Explore up and down the river for a better place to cross? Send someone (and who) to swim across by themselves with one end of a rope? Something else? It's a way for them to figure out how to approach such a challenge so we don't waste time on it later in the game.
This as very helpful.
Thank you.
Not defending it but maybe they wanted to give a chance for some role play and social development for the players, possibly. Probably just a learning moment for the DM.
When dms allow certain players to go shopping, but ignore others who try to buy specific stuff.
It happens.
So how to you get your players out of the decision paralysis? Do you set a timer or does a monster just attack? I have had players (11 to 13 year olds) geek out as they try to figure out what monster is moving in the shadows. One game session, the kids argued who should climbed down into a cavern. They saw a portal and a monster and discuss the myriad of things I may have planned and that was the ENTIRE 100 minute game session!!! They seem to be enjoying it, but it is boring me to death.
Very good and helpful information!
Difficult terrain + some fantasy activity is good, fight or treasure or natural traps. Difficult terrain + limited time is norm, so at least you can spend resources to save time. But just difficult terrain... "so, guys without atletics and with heavy/medium armor cannot pass here. What you do?"
Honestly shopping helps release the tension in my campaign, but that could be because it is Dark Souls inspired
I am curious how you handle pacing with a party that does a lot of intra party socializing.
My current game has the players RPing amongst themselves and NPC "tag alongs" a lot. Our downtime (deadtime) is often filled with the PCs talking, chatting, discussing events, planning, telling jokes, laughing, etc... And while it's super fun, I do worry my DM is getting bored of us sometimes (he says he's not).
If the DM is happy with that, or says they are, then that's not a problem!
As a DM, if the players are invested so much in the world that they want to immerse themselves further in their characters I would be elated. It means the world crafted feels alive enough to enjoy interacting with the other players/characters simply because it's fun to be in the moment.
Genuinely doubt the DM is bored. My favorite moments are when my player characters are interacting and chatting with each other. It gives me lots of ideas 😈
"Theres a metallic taste in the air". Normally means lots of blood was spilled
Hello, could anyone direct me where to find the articles Luke mentioned in the end of the video?
I had a DM whose pacing was incredibly fast. He transitioned from one encounter to another without knowing the intentions of his players, so he left his encounters unresolved for some of us. Thanks for the video. This will help me avoid doing that.
One counter argument I will point out for the "pointless river crossing" encounter is the following:
If you as a DM make players play out something that would normally feel meaningless, they might expect that something is going to happen. If my players say they want to go up a ladder, and I specify that I want them to tell me in which order, and how, they go up this ladder; that seems suspicious. They are going to think that because I am making them playout this meaningless scene, surely there must be something that will happen, and so they should be ready, and think about their strategies while going up this ladder.
Sure it might be meaningless, but if I only make them playout "meaningless" scenarios when it actually matters, they will never be surprised when those meaningless scenarios actually hold more than meets the eye. Obviously you don't want to play out every monotonous choice, but I think if its reasonably plausible that something might happen during this scene, such as a river crossing where the players are exposed and separated, it increases the tension of the scene and makes it feel more immersive. In this real situation of a river crossing, players wouldnt know what to expect and might even feel anxious about being left alone on one side of the river. After safely crossing, they would all feel some relief, and feel as if they had successfully crossed a river. I would take the opportunity to spice up the scene for this intent. Telling the players who are left alone that they hear some sounds in the forest behind them, them noticing that they will be alone for quite a while since the crossing is slow, and other sorts of colourful flavour to bring that scene to life. I think it's definitely possible to make a monotonous scene like that feel more exciting. Because if I only ever play out the monotonous situations that have encounters, then they will always be ready for it, and there won't be any tension because normally, I wouldnt make them play out this scene.