Most viewers will be surprised to know that what you see is the computer generated background. The real background is another, much larger, green screen.
Sir, I appreciate the presentation, and agree with your conclusions. I personally run HSTs preferentially, with the +P Gold Dots in 9mm as my second choice. But as someone who has actually witnessed the actual FBI testing in person at Law Enforcement Wound Ballistics Workshops presented by Federal and Speer, I'd like to make you aware of something about the testing. Perhaps you merely misspoke. The FBI testing does not include any test where four layers of denim are used. That test, so often quoted on TH-cam as being part of the "FBI Tests" came from the now long-defunct International Wound Ballistics Association. It is a very tough standard, designed to produce clogging of hollow point bullets of lesser design and is a good test. The Hornady rounds that feature the plastic insert in the nose were an attempt by that company to do well on the IWBA test, because prior to their release, Hornady bullets were famous for clogging and acting like ball ammo in gelatin. So were many others at the time. But the FBI "Heavy Clothing" test is actually set up as follows: "The Heavy Clothing barrier consists of: (1) layer of Denim (14.4 ounces/yard), (1) layer of Polartec 200 fleece, (1) layer of cotton dress shirt (3.5 ounces/yard) and (1) cotton T-shirt (5.25 ounces/yard) layered firmly on the face of the ballistic gelatin block. Bullets that are designed to defeat this barrier will expand to close to their bare gelatin expanded diameter. Bullets that perform poorly during this test phase will usually perform poorly on all of the remaining test phases." This is not quite as difficult as the "four layers of denim" test, but the FBI considers it more realistic. Four layer denim test results used to be shown on Federal's Law Enforcement website at the end, marked as "IWBA Heavy Cothing" but were deleted some time ago. I just thought you might like to know. Best wishes.
Not even a bit funny. You seem to care only about your "important" self. If you are involved in a shooting, your words will be researched and used against you, on behalf of the innocent bystander you so carelessly offed. You are a real gem.
seen a guy get shot 24 times in the head and chest with a 9mm (hornady critical defense). He then got on his motorcycle and drove himself to the hospital. He survived with non life threatening injuries. Seen a guy get hit once in the chest with a 40s&w (Federal Hydrashocks) and he dropped and died before the paramedics came. 9mm is weak and hornady products are junk
Right now with ammo shortages we have to use whatever is available. I carry critical defense in my Canik TP9 SF Elite. At $29 a box I’d rather throw the round at them so I can reload it later! 🤣 Great info!!!
Damn it John! I’ll tell you one thing... why didn’t I find your channel before I spent way way too much money guns ammo and holsters... I tell everyone I know about your channel! All great info to take into consideration... granted I know it’s all personal preference but I did make a few changes due to your videos. And I’m grateful for you and what you do! Keep up the great work John! God bless you brother! 👊
Active Self Protection Extra shhhhh***t I was talking to my gf about conceal carry since it's been on her mind for a while too. An it's the first thing I do. Try to look stuff up on TH-cam to try an get some knowledge an I find your channel. I'm all woooooo
Thanks for the video. The 9mm is my routine defensive handgun. When I need something larger, I carry a 45acp. When I need something smaller, I carry a 380acp or a 25acp. In my 4-inch HK USP 9mm, I usually carry one of the following 147 grain jacked hollow point ammunition: 1. Federal HST 2. Speer Gold Dot 3. Hornaday XTP 4. Winchester Silver Tip 5. Remington Bonded
HST > Hornady With that being said, I don't think there is much of a difference between the two when it comes to killing humans. Shot placement reigns supreme.
placement is a strawman argument and comment, only relevant when comparing proficient with non proficient shooters. it matters not which caliber or gun is being used, a proficient shooter will hit where he is aiming. if the cns is not hit then you depend on penetration and expansion for bloodloss to eventually end the fight, regardless of where you hit. 10-30% more in either or both makes a big difference in the time needed. bullet performance is key if the bad guy doesn't give up
It depends on the gun. Several of my guns won’t feed HST in either .380 or 9mm. The critical defense feeds fine in both calibers and all of my pistols. The critical duty does very well in my p365 M18.
Yeah it is like debating whether a bowie knife or a kukri is better. Yeah, they have some different qualities, but you stick either one into someone's heart and they are gonna die.
seen a guy get shot 24 times in the head and chest with a 9mm (hornady critical defense). He then got on his motorcycle and drove himself to the hospital. He survived with non life threatening injuries. Seen a guy get hit once in the chest with a 40s&w (Federal Hydrashocks) and he dropped and died before the paramedics came. 9mm is weak and hornady products are junk
I carried 147 hydra-shocks for a good 10 years, because that's what my first instructor told me to load in my gun. He was not only an instructor, but a mentor figure to me and so I took his advice. I have gone down to 124 jhp Federal HST, to get some more velocity, but I always have a spare mag of "shocks" in my vehicle.
The ballistic tests that I have seen on the 165 grain 40 caliber Hornady Critical Defense FTX is completely different than 9 mm. The results for the critical defense FTX 40 caliber were surprisingly good
One ting to consider is that if your sights are fixed,you may want to choose something that hits where you aim. I’ve found a drastic difference at 10 yards in elevation in the point of impact
I did research ammo before I bought a gun. A m&p 9c was my first gun and started off with Winchester pdx-1s but moved to 124 grain HSTs after i learned more. But made that decision with talking to a lot of people in the gun community. A few youtubers actually replied to questions I had which helped me a ton. TH-cam can be a very good source of information if you use it right. Your pistol/rifle/shotgun value/performance video helped me a lot as well.
Reliable information concerning ammunition is hard to come by due to 100 years of myths and misconceptions. Read the books--Stopping Power--Street Stoppers--and Stopping Power. The re the result of DOCUMENTED shootings and results compiled using statistical analysis.
I moved down to Mesa back in June from the imperial city of Chicago. I enjoy your videos I protect my family with a Ruger SR40C and 165 grain Hornaday Critical defense. So I’m kinda the OutKast
You've convinced me to change to Federal HST. The Lucky Gunner tests impressed me too. It's expensive, but worth it. I have several 9mm Glocks and spare mags that I'll have to load.
Well the cost seems to have gone up. But I will end up buying and carrying the federal 147 hst. I had already chosen that round after watching it tested on youtube videos. Thanks for the video. 😁👍
Thanks for the break down. Critical defence was the round that the gun shop picked for me when i bought my first handgun. Its a bit pricey. Thanks for the better options. Your videos have taught me alot!
Yes, exactly, they all make money when you fall for the Hornady pitch. I listened to a short round table talk with Hornady people. It was laughable how they described this end all, be all, perfect for all situations round! It didn't stand even the basic common sense test!
Howdy! After watching your video I felt it be necessary I bring to the attention of your viewers; the reason, we in public safety would want less penetration from the projectile. When in high stress situations (or compact engagement areas) it is vital that we pay diligent attentiveness to the direction of aim. This is what is typically refereed to as back drop, or extended penetration marking. Making positively certain that if/when our round goes completely through the intended target; no one will be injured on the other side of the target, ensuring maximum safety of innocents and bystanders. It is rare when engaging a target that all other factors to the shot are definitively exempt, and there is nothing else to determine but the shot itself. When being the individual making the decision to be the first line of defense; either on the job or with loved ones I hope you all will take careful thought on how you plan on being the protector. CCW courses alone do not make you ready for the truly difficult choices in this realm of thinking. To all of you please stay safe and take what you will from this!
Thanks so much for this, my man. I’m looking for appropriate carry ammo for my sig p938. I was originally going for the hornady, but I’m glad I watched this before purchasing!! I’ll definitely be going for the federal. Thank you and God bless
Agree with the presenter, HST beats Hornady all day. More consistent, cheaper and blossoms beautifully. Hornady sells a ton with the glossy box and the bullet for all occasions...can't have it all. HST all day and if not then +P Gold Dots.
You can get Federal HST for around 30-40 cents per round. Hornady Critical Defense is around $1 to $1.25 per round. You can shoot more than twice as much for the same ammo budget, so I shoot and carry HST. EDIT: He says pretty much the same thing at the end, never mind.
sae1095hc Yeah no. I get Hornady Critical Defense for 55c/ round usually and have seen HST listed for $1 or more before. Price varies by where you look.
@@TheFlyingCougar seen a guy get shot 24 times in the head and chest with a 9mm (hornady critical defense). He then got on his motorcycle and drove himself to the hospital. He survived with non life threatening injuries. Seen a guy get hit once in the chest with a 40s&w (Federal Hydrashocks) and he dropped and died before the paramedics came. 9mm is weak and hornady products are junk
You raise very good points on both types of ammo. Why I do prefer critical defense is that for a daily carry, I do not want the round to over penetrate, I want to stop the threat. It goes without saying that you are responsible for every round, so, for your everyday citizen who is not battling a Heat style foe with multiple levels of body armor, I don't want that round to do harm to an innocent bystander.
Critical Defense consistently underpenetrates. Underpenetration can get you killed. The 115 gr Critical Defense penetrates similarly to the 115 gr SilverTip. The SilverTip is the round that got Special Agents Jerry Dove and Ben Grogan killed due to its underpenetration. Oh, and did I mention that the Critical Defense underpenetrates?
Federal came out with a 150gr load, which is what I use. It's specifically for guns with barrels shorter than 4". Excellent ballistics and noticeably less recoil.
Probably the worst bullet that Federal makes...150 grain....check out the meat test with the Federal 150 grain by Paul Harrell. Too low in power and too heavy...HST 124 and 147 are the best of the best...
Thank you for the great video. I have done some testing myself plus watched a lot of videos on these two rounds and yes the HST may get a little bigger but from what I've seen it clogs a lot easier than the critical defense and from the wound cavities that I have seen in ballistics gel I honestly feel like even though the critical defense doesn't expand quite as large it seems like the wound cavity is bigger so while HST is an amazing round and I do have some for backups. I personally feel Underwood Xtreme Defender are amazing and the Hornady Critical Defense would be my second choice and then third would be the HST for me
@@robertwatson818 What are you talking about? Federal HST and Speer Gold Dots are law enforcement standard these days. They have both been proven on the streets thousands of times.
@@AtomicStateDelivery None of this ammo is street proven at all much less thousands of time. There are not thousands of police civilian shooting a year. There is NO documentation of this ammo being used in a shooting. Any mention would be anecdotal at best. There must be some official documentation in the form of police reports, ER doctor's report, pathologist's findings, coroner's reports and more. Documentation must be verifiable also. None of this is forth coming. All these NEW "self defense' offerings are for the purpose of making money--period. Oh--they are NEW also! Did I mention they re NEW? Ammo from the early nineties will work just fine. There is none for NEW self defense ammo. Use what is proven to work. Some this ammo barely cycles my Glocks and is not as powerful as my practice loads. 400 foot pounds at the target is the minimum for reliable stopping ability. More is better up to about 650 foot pounds after which there is no additional stopping effect.
I recently purchased a case of Federal 124 gr HST standard pressure rounds and am running them thru my Gen 4 Glock 19 and my HK VP9SK. So far I like them
A FMJ that fires and strikes the intended target is 100% more effective than a JHP that jams on the feed ramp and then renders the pistol inoperative. Of course you or I would advise someone who has an autoloader that ONLY feeds FMJ to either get a better pistol or at least see a gunsmith.
You have a point. I think a lot of people buy fancy bullets and never confirm that they run well. I made the same mistake in my younger days, but I learned.
I had a S&W 457 .45 ACP in the mid 90s that absolutely would NOT feed FEDERAL "Hydra-Shoks" and I also encountered multiple failures with "Gold-Dots" in a SIG P-228 9mm and an H&K USP 45c!!. Very high quality expensive pistols JAMMING with very expensive ammo.
I am old school 64 years old and retired leo . I carried a revolver as a duty weapon in the 1980 s- 1990s I retired in 1996. A friend reloaded me some reversed hollow base wadcutters with a. +p power load . They were good on small game animals ,but there were made without a gas check or jacketing of any sort. The +p powder load would actually melt the bullet s base so you have to clean good to keep shooting . But overall I think it would be a very effective round and will continue to try something that's new again.
Great info, and well made. And I must say, the somebody send me ammo edit was absolutely hilarious!!! 😜. Keep up the good work, good info for avg concealed carry guy!!
Another great video John. And I pretty much agree with your choices 100%. I use HST or Gold Dot in all my defensive handguns, even my McRib. :-) As you mention, HST (and Gold Dot) can be found pretty economically online. In 9mm I also prefer the 124 grain option as it has enough velocity to expand consistently in most all the tests I've seen.
Thats exactly what it was designed for, and this video doesn't even talk about that aspect. Not all 9mm guns are created equal. My glock 17 will still get the HSTs but the critical defense is better suited for my xds 9mm with a 3.3 inch barrel.
Yup thats why critical defense works just fine in standard pressure 38 special, but HSTs need not only +P pressure, but a completely different bullet design as well.
I have seen the opposite in gel and more realistic tests with hst being more consistent and expanding more reliably while xtp rounds tend to require more speed
@@jorgesolis9468 Whatchu talkin bout? Nobody said anything about XTPs, but yeah you are right about them. XTPs definitely need a good bit of velocity to expand and even then, they don't expand a whole lot, as intended. They are more of a penetration round with just a little expansion for hunting rather than a defensive round. They are great for 357 magnum or 357 sig though. Could work for 9mm as a winter carry load too.
@@MegaAppleshit the commentor was saying lower velocity and shorter barrels better for xtp (ftx) rounds which is false gold dots are the best all around pistol round hst are a happy in between ftx and xtp work best for penetrating deeper with faster rounds
One thing to consider are the laws of the state in which you live. Communist New Jersey has no concealed carry license so we're limited to protecting ourselves only in our homes and businesses. That said, they limit us even further with a myriad of laws concerning magazine capacity and bullet type. Mags are limited to 15 rounds. The law on hollow points is not clear to me - if someone KNOWS (not thinks) please let me know. As a result, for my home defense, I play it safe and load the Critical Defense since they are not a hollow point. John, I appreciate your content. Very informative without the hype and nonsense. I especially like the episodes where the bad guy takes the "room temperature challenge".
Interesting. I didn't realize the FTX isn't considered a hollow point. Even Hornady's own marketing is a little unclear: "The FTX® - at the forefront of Critical Defense® - maximizes the potential of a hollow point bullet..."
I use HST 124 grain +p as my defensive round only, I train with federal 124 grain ball rds so in a defensive situation i will know what the recoil will be and to get my follow up shots on target.
I just don't understand the people who dislike the video, information is brought forward for a personal determination to be made. So do they dislike how you presented it or they just disapprove of your info. Second I carry HSTs as I'm in Phoenix too because no one wears heavy clothing so the Critical Duty ended up as target practice.
Since no two models of gun handle the same ammo well, I ran 40-50 rounds (divided into 4-5 targets over different days) of twenty different carry and range ammunition. For my 9mm Walther PPS M2, the Federal 124gr standard pressure HST was the most accurate (centered and tight shot pattern) carry ammo. The Hornady 115gr Critical Defense FTX was the next best carry ammo. Winchester 124 gr +P Defender bonded JHP was pretty accurate, but much to my surprise, the Hornady 135 gr Critical Duty XTP was the least accurate ammo ( worse than cheap FMJ range ammo varieties tested). The Speer Gold Dot 124gr GDHP also was a poor choice in my gun. These are two top performers in most online reviews. It pays to do some comparisons in one’s own concealed carry pistol. Once knowing what ammo shoots well, then one can take into consideration other factors such as: ballistic gel or PH’s “meat target” penetration and bullet expansion performance; availability; and, cost. The comparisons I made included range ammo, so I knew what cheap ammo I should practice with that performed similarly as my carry ammo choices.
I've followed Lucky Gunner's and Shooting The Bull's results with great interest for years. For what they do, they do very well, but I have some reservations about whether they are looking at the right thing. Everybody is looking at the bullet and not at the wound. As you pointed out, you stop someone with loss of blood or hitting a vital spot. If the latter, I fail to see how big the bullet gets matters, a bullet in the heart kills no matter what size, so for this, penetration is all important. And, just like your garden hose, the thing that matters most in loss of blood is the diameter of the wounds, entrance or exit. When I look at the good gel tests, I look at the hole in the front face of the block. In most cases the only difference there is variance from caliber to caliber, not bullet to bullet within caliber (this makes sense because nothing has yet expanded) so blood loss would be a function of what organ you hit (optimally heart and surrounding blood vessels) combined with how big a hole a bullet makes initially. So what would matter is, again, not how big the bullet gets but penetration and how big of a caliber you can shoot straight in a civilian combat. As well as how many bullet wounds you put into the perp up to the point of diminishing returns (emptying your magazine, double stack or not, is FAR beyond that point). I also look at the permanent wound channels and I can see nowhere near the difference in the sizes of these in the gel as there is in the expansion of the bullet. The one exception to this is when bullets start to tumble. Then even most small slow bullets make far larger segments of channel than any, not tumbling, caliber. And the mere physical movement of tissue in the temporary channel makes little wounding difference. Further, small, slow bullets are much more prone to erratic tumbling, no matter what their starting and ending diameter. This may go a long way to explaining why, for many decades, European police were able to carry .32 Auto effectively. The one thing most people neglect is the numerical wound ballistics score that Shooting the Bull does occasionally and Lucky Gunner doesn't do at all. It, and inches of penetration, are the *only* measures about what would happen to the body shot. Bullet weight doesn't do this, nor does bullet diameter. And as far as I can see for the purposes of self defense that, along with penetration, is the real measure of bullet performance.
IMHO the Winchester PDX1 is an underrated round. Great performance and readily available in just about any store I see ammo sold in. I wish it got the credit it deserves.
I loved/hated being op force during deadly force training in the Corps. I would have swollen hands from everyone shooting center mass. Two to the chest one to the head.
I carried HST 147 gr until it wouldn’t feed in certain handguns. Then I saw how the CD would penetrate fabric prior to going into ballistic gel, as required by the fbi standard, and then dump ALL of its energy without over penetration. The standard includes, from the Miami incident, penetrating a clothing barrier, penetrating a limb and delivering a deadly strike. Everything I’ve seen, the CD does it. I challenge you to
TheMMSpirit i rum mine through my glock 26 tbh I have a few boxes of hst but I feel like Hornady c defense is my go to..even for home defense ..my 26 is my home defense weapon as well..I do have others though I just shoot it the best
most important is that the ammo reliably functions in your pistol. Any premium JHP from reputable companies like Federal, Winchester, Remington, Hornady, and some of the 'botique' companies like Double Tap and Corbon offer excellent defensive ammunition. Make sure you use the same magazines that positively function at the range. Not all magazines are created equal
One thing he mentioned at the end is that you must choose a round that reliably functions in your firearm. Make sure you run several boxes through your particular firearm and make sure it functions!
@@ASPextra Thanks! Love the content. I help teach a free basic pistol class offered by my county sheriff and I have quoted you and I recommend the channel as follow on learning and recommend the MMM ASP ankle IFAC as range or daily carry. Mine was “misplaced” but I have another on order.
The best rounds that I have tested are the Lehigh Defense/Underwood Xtreme Defender rounds, Federal Premium HST rounds, Speer Gold Dot rounds and Hornady Critical Duty rounds. I have the least amount of testing time with the Xtreme Defender rounds but they performed basically identical in every firearm used and every test medium fired into with or without barrier penetration first. With the HST and Gold Dot rounds, they performed virtually identical in every manner and in every test medium. With both the department that I work for and in personal use, I have 13 years of using and practicing with HST and Hydrashok rounds but with the Gold Dot rounds, I have only tested them on my own for about 5 years. With the Critical Duty rounds, I have tested and used them also for around 5 years. They perform the best when having to penetrate a barrier in most mediums but also perform well when no barrier is penetrated. Where they do not perform as well as the HST, Hydrashok and Gold Dot rounds is in round expansion. They only expand about 75% of what the other expanding rounds do. I prefer HST and Gold Dot rounds over anything else but if the Xtreme Defender rounds continue to perform like they all have thus far, then they will take the place of the HST and Gold Dot rounds.
I bought 10 boxes of 90 grain Underwood extreme defender plus p plus, they traveled right at 1520fps, I shot them threw windshields ballistic gel 3 1982 6-in thick southern belle phone books nothing stopping that round, 500, foot pounds of energy 👍
@@OzzyTanks6969, I have now switched to Underwood Xtreme Defender ammo exclusively since my initial post. In +P if available and in the heaviest grain weight available per caliber. My results are very similar to yours.
Keep in mind that the increased velocity from the +p will result in larger expansion but slightly less penetration as well. I stick with the standard pressure 147 gr HST.
Thanks John! As if HSTs weren't hard enough to find already! Lol. 124gr Standard Pressure for my Shield, 147gr Standard Pressure for my CZ P-09, and 180gr for my G27. Can't beat it.
I've been following your videos for awhile. I find your videos perfect. I can't think of anything to improve. Furthermore, i carry a Sig p250 subcompact .45 with Hornady critical defense right hip tuckable holster for times when I'm not suppose to carry like at work lol
seen a guy get shot 24 times in the head and chest with a 9mm (hornady critical defense). He then got on his motorcycle and drove himself to the hospital. He survived with non life threatening injuries. Seen a guy get hit once in the chest with a 40s&w (Federal Hydrashocks) and he dropped and died before the paramedics came. 9mm is weak and hornady products are junk
prodigy2k7 In +P. And they make a short barrel version also. I keep those in our carry EMP's. As far as I know, NYPD carries 9mm Gold Dot in +P. Plenty of cold weather there, but they also have to be concerned with over penetration in such a congested environment.
BlueWRX z. Speer Gold Dot for me too in alllll my guns. These HST guys need to watch a bunch of REAL tests, instead of marketing and advertising tests. Just do more research is all I ask. HSTs are NOT impressive in REAL tests.
I try to keep it simple. Carry ammunition that is in common use by law enforcement agencies. Those bullets are not only the most tested in ballistics gel, but also have a long track record of performance in real life. I don’t like bullets like the xtreme defender that look cool in ballistics gel but have little to no track record of actually stopping bad guys in real life. The ammo that makes the cut for me is HST, Gold Dot, Winchester Ranger Bonded (and whatever the civilian name is), and Critical Duty. Any of those is more than good enough so there’s not too much reason to overthink if you have one of those. The only caveat there I would add is if you’re shooting a shorter barrel gun (less than 4 inches), look for ammo that’s either designated for shorter barrels, or has been tested and shown satisfactory results. I know regular HST, for example, is known to perform in shorter barrels. Whereas Gold Dots have a SKU that’s marked for shorter barrels that you should look for.
Ryan Kelley I believe that NYPD uses them in +P as well. It's what I carry. If you ever had to defend your ammo choice in court, it doesn't hurt to be carrying what the "finest", big city police department carries.
It certainly can be. A .380 ACP, 9mm Lugar, .357 SIG, and several other cartridges use a bullet that is .355". .38 Super and a few others use a .356" bullet. .38 Short Colt, .38 Long Colt, .38 S&W Special, .357 S&W Magnum, plus a few other cartridges use .357" bullets. As soon as you get it all figured out, you'll come across another cartridge or two that will leave you scratching your head again. I cast my own lead bullets, and my particular 9mm handguns like bullets that are sized .358", just like my .38 Spl and .357 Mag revolvers.
How did you arrive at "9mm bullets aren't truly 9mm" ??? 9mm is 9.01mm which is 0.355inch see this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9%C3%9719mm_Parabellum ...look at the column on the top right of the page.
josh benware I'd have to look at a loading manual, but I think 38 refers to the case and 357 to the bullet. Manufacturers all gotta come up with a name for their fancy bullets. 357 Sig is not 357 at all but they wanted to market it as "just as powerful as the magnum."
Love being first. I think I'm going to go with Underwood for 380 but currently carry Critical Duty for everything. HST seems like an awesome round too. Have you heard anything about them clogging?
Josh is right. XTP/FTX have a poor history of consistent expansion. Even when they expand, they don't expand very much. The HST is the most consistent I've ever seen in gel testing with denim.
josh benware cool. Imma check it out. Even though they make them soft tips instead of hollow tips to prevent clogging I can imagine it could happen. Maybe a flawed design. I just got scared off from jhp's after the 4 or 5 Speer gold dots getting clogged in that guys carhartt jacket a while back in the news.
LoneWanderer360 cool man well I feel better about that option then. Thanks for the knowledge guys that's why I come here. So what rounds would you guys recommend? I was thinking cor bon or Speer gold dots.. hst maybe?
Federal HST’s saved my life! At the time it was my duty ammo. 230 gr. +P Federal HST. Not one torso shot penetrated through. My department switched to Speer Gold Dot 230 gr because the firearms instructors claim that it has better penetration through walls and vehicles. When I carry off duty, and when size doesn’t matter, I carry my Glock 19 with 147 gr HST +P or standard velocity. The standard velocity recoils less but seems to penetrate a little deeper and does not expand as much. The standard velocity still expands to a respectable diameter for self defense. If size matters, I carry my Glock 43 or my custom S&W 380 Bodyguard. With the Glock 43 I prefer the 124 gr standard or +P Federal HST. Unfortunately, as far as I was informed, Federal HST in 380 does not perform as well as Precision One or Fiocchi hollow points. For everything else. Federal HST’s. Great job John... I couldn’t agree more and you covered all bases.
I like the Sig V-Crown 124gr for my main EDC round. Close 2nd would be Barnes, TacXPD all copper, 115gr. For home defense Team Never Quite 100gr frangible holler points are my go to to minimize over penetration so my neighbors aren't in as much danger.
Klaus S depleted uranium is a very dense material, a bullet the same size would weigh 200 grains, the military uses it to penetrate bomb shelter strength concrete bunkers. It's also still radioactive, but depleted, hence the name.
Active Self Protection Extra even I looked at the lucky Gunner labs results for the ranger t in 45 it outperformed the HST by a good half inch penetration and wider expansion.
One thing people over look is the kind of wound the bullet leaves behind. Sharp edges causes more bleeding. FMJs suck because it's like poking a hole in fabric with a sharp pencil. The hole left behind is tiny compared to the size of the pencil because the fabric stretches. The same thing happens with FMJs and that's why the size that a hollow-point expands is only part of the story. The Ranger-T ammo is gnarly. It's the same reason why star-shaped and bladed bayonets are so much more deadly than the old smooth bayonets used on muskets. Also the same reason broad-head arrows are so much deadlier than regular pointed arrows, causes way more bleeding which leads to faster exsanguination.
I use 124 grain Speer Gold Dot, but I’ve used HST and Critical defense in the past. Overall, as long as it has a good track record I’m not too picky about my load.
SCAM ON HST packaging : Only buy the LE edition , not the civilian 20 round box .. exact same bullet , different package cost you almost twice the price !!!
LoneWanderer360 even online ya gotta shop around , I bought the 50 round LE box from Lucky Gunner , paid $34.95 ,then found out many other sites have the same box for $20 with the same price or cheaper shipping then LG
I recall the Shooting the Bull video testing Hornady Critical Defense 9mm out of a 3 inch barrel and it seemed to be the best performer at that point in time. I think this was a few years ago and there were still a lot of different kinds of ammo yet to be tested. Now I want to go find this video on 9mm Federal HST in a 3in barrel.
The critical defense usually meets the minimum FBI penetration depth minimums, but sometimes just short in the 11-12 inch range, hst on the other hand always meets the minimum and flirts with the maximum sometimes.
Penetration tests are overrated. I would rather have a bullet that under penetrates than over. A bullet that stops quick dumps all it's energy quick, doesn't waste energy going through someone to keep going and less likely to kill people behind your target.
I got shot in the left eye with a .40 S&W Critical Defense round and shot in the right eye with a .40 S&W HST round, and I’ve got to say, both rounds pretty much liquified my eye and took my head clean off, but if I had to choose which projectile hurt more, I’d probably go with the Hornady Critical Defense round. Not only because it damaged more of my brain and skull, but also because I’ve always really liked Hornady’s marketing, their boxes look really, really cool. You do not want to be the guy who gets shot with uncool ammunition. “Critical Defense”! ...that just sounds so much cooler!
Good video. I currently carry with the Critical defense. I have had the red polymer tip actually jam my gun when cycling, more than once... Gonna have to switch.
I do see how the Fed 147gr is a great perpetrator and expander, but the velocities are sub sonic. This kind of defeats the purpose of carrying a 9mm in my eyes. The lower velocities do not lend well to hydrostatic shock, which by the way does occur in handgun rounds. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock_(firearms)
Your eyes are mis-calibrated. Bullets at pistol velocities don't produce the effect often called hydrostatic shock. You can only count on the crushing damage to critical tissues with pistol bullets.
I read that page, and it doesn't say anything about 2500fps being necessary for hydrostatic shock, that was just how one study defined "high velocity" for rifle bullets. The numbers given for hydrostatic shock were at least 500 ft-lb and 12" penetration from one source, and at least 1,100fps from another. Both of these should be achievable with pistol rounds.
HST is an advancement of the old Hydra Shok round. But federal still makes it because people like you still think it's the best there is. It's funny they even sell it for more than HST, lol
Here in New Jersey, although the law says you can own HST for home defense, if you use said ammo in defense of your home the local county prosecutor (Any county in NJ) will prosecute you for pre-meditated murder. Their line of thinking is that since you thought ahead of time to get an ammo that guarantees death then you intentionally wanted to kill the perp therefore you pre-planed the perps death, hence pre-meditated murder. Just a heads up on what they do to people who protect themselves here in New Jersey.
After doing my research, I prefer Speer Got Dot, especially in 147 Grain. A close second would be Critical Duty. Critical Defense and HST would be 3rd and 4th respectively.
Hi sorry I know this is a year old but could you explain why you choose the speer over the hst? I'm just wondering for myself I'm still debating on which one to go with the internet pretty much leans towards the hst but you can't always believe the internet lol
I feel like you’ve missed a step in the use of a green screen.
Most viewers will be surprised to know that what you see is the computer generated background. The real background is another, much larger, green screen.
He just clipped that to the nude portrait of his wife and pet Boa cause she got a bit miffed when he forgot in his first video. ;
😂 He normally nails that step I guess he was tired of the norm for this one. Great comment. It made me smile.
Haha
kek
I load my hi-point with Tula 115 grain :) I aslo carry a spare rock in my pocket.
Luis Castillo hahaha
The spare rock may just save your life!
If thats all someone can afford its better than nothing
I would just stick with the rock lol
heritage rough rider, mini mag hp 22 lr brugh
124g Federal HST standard pressure in my home defense Walther PDP 4.5". Easy to shoot and extremely consistent groups. I love it!
Sir, I appreciate the presentation, and agree with your conclusions. I personally run HSTs preferentially, with the +P Gold Dots in 9mm as my second choice. But as someone who has actually witnessed the actual FBI testing in person at Law Enforcement Wound Ballistics Workshops presented by Federal and Speer, I'd like to make you aware of something about the testing. Perhaps you merely misspoke.
The FBI testing does not include any test where four layers of denim are used. That test, so often quoted on TH-cam as being part of the "FBI Tests" came from the now long-defunct International Wound Ballistics Association. It is a very tough standard, designed to produce clogging of hollow point bullets of lesser design and is a good test. The Hornady rounds that feature the plastic insert in the nose were an attempt by that company to do well on the IWBA test, because prior to their release, Hornady bullets were famous for clogging and acting like ball ammo in gelatin. So were many others at the time.
But the FBI "Heavy Clothing" test is actually set up as follows:
"The Heavy Clothing barrier consists of: (1) layer of Denim (14.4 ounces/yard), (1) layer of Polartec 200 fleece, (1) layer of cotton dress shirt (3.5 ounces/yard) and (1) cotton T-shirt (5.25 ounces/yard) layered firmly on the face of the ballistic gelatin block. Bullets that are designed to defeat this barrier will expand to close to their bare gelatin expanded diameter. Bullets that perform poorly during this test phase will usually perform poorly on all of the remaining test phases."
This is not quite as difficult as the "four layers of denim" test, but the FBI considers it more realistic. Four layer denim test results used to be shown on Federal's Law Enforcement website at the end, marked as "IWBA Heavy Cothing" but were deleted some time ago. I just thought you might like to know.
Best wishes.
Thanks for posting that to clear up a widespread legend. I'll refrain from comments about the IWBA.
I use ball Ammo. Fuck everyone behind the guy in shooting. (Heavy sarcasm font)
Not even a bit funny. You seem to care only about your "important" self. If you are involved in a shooting, your words will be researched and used against you, on behalf of the innocent bystander you so carelessly offed. You are a real gem.
You clearly can't read.
seen a guy get shot 24 times in the head and chest with a 9mm (hornady critical defense). He then got on his motorcycle and drove himself to the hospital. He survived with non life threatening injuries. Seen a guy get hit once in the chest with a 40s&w (Federal Hydrashocks) and he dropped and died before the paramedics came. 9mm is weak and hornady products are junk
Right now with ammo shortages we have to use whatever is available. I carry critical defense in my Canik TP9 SF Elite. At $29 a box I’d rather throw the round at them so I can reload it later! 🤣 Great info!!!
Canik makes some fantastic weapons
"I would love if someone would start sending me ammo. That would be great."
Hear, hear! LOL
Right?!?!
I wish someone would buy me Critical Defense or give me the money. Lol.
147gr. HST standard pressure is my go-to load in 9x19.
Nice. I prefer the +P HST in 9 and 45 auto.
I agree 100% . 147 grain standard pressure HST loaded in my M and P shield.
Damn it John! I’ll tell you one thing... why didn’t I find your channel before I spent way way too much money guns ammo and holsters... I tell everyone I know about your channel! All great info to take into consideration... granted I know it’s all personal preference but I did make a few changes due to your videos. And I’m grateful for you and what you do! Keep up the great work John! God bless you brother! 👊
Dude I have wasted SO much money on stuff. Trying to save as many as possible from making the same mistakes!
Active Self Protection Extra shhhhh***t I was talking to my gf about conceal carry since it's been on her mind for a while too. An it's the first thing I do. Try to look stuff up on TH-cam to try an get some knowledge an I find your channel. I'm all woooooo
Thanks for the video.
The 9mm is my routine defensive handgun.
When I need something larger, I carry a 45acp.
When I need something smaller, I carry a 380acp or a 25acp.
In my 4-inch HK USP 9mm, I usually carry one of the following 147 grain jacked hollow point ammunition:
1. Federal HST
2. Speer Gold Dot
3. Hornaday XTP
4. Winchester Silver Tip
5. Remington Bonded
I have all 5 brands in 1 magazine 😂
HST 45 + Ps !!!
HST > Hornady With that being said, I don't think there is much of a difference between the two when it comes to killing humans. Shot placement reigns supreme.
Yes, but if you can choose ammo that gives you a few percent better chance in a life or death situation...
placement is a strawman argument and comment, only relevant when comparing proficient with non proficient shooters. it matters not which caliber or gun is being used, a proficient shooter will hit where he is aiming. if the cns is not hit then you depend on penetration and expansion for bloodloss to eventually end the fight, regardless of where you hit. 10-30% more in either or both makes a big difference in the time needed. bullet performance is key if the bad guy doesn't give up
It depends on the gun. Several of my guns won’t feed HST in either .380 or 9mm. The critical defense feeds fine in both calibers and all of my pistols. The critical duty does very well in my p365 M18.
Yeah it is like debating whether a bowie knife or a kukri is better. Yeah, they have some different qualities, but you stick either one into someone's heart and they are gonna die.
Well no shit a .22 to the face is better than a .45 to the baby toe
Great video!!! I am carrying the Critical Defense but after watching this and Lucky Gunner's video...I'm switching! Thanks!!!
seen a guy get shot 24 times in the head and chest with a 9mm (hornady critical defense). He then got on his motorcycle and drove himself to the hospital. He survived with non life threatening injuries. Seen a guy get hit once in the chest with a 40s&w (Federal Hydrashocks) and he dropped and died before the paramedics came. 9mm is weak and hornady products are junk
@@abcdaw22 Why didn't you drive him to the hospital? Ohh because the story is bullshit.
@@thehamburglar9mm your mother is bullshit
J yang you’re full of shit. Shot 24 times. Hahahahaha yeah right
Stay loyal to c defense
My department issues the HST 147g standard pressure and we've had great success with that round. Fantastically accurate video, thanks.
steve graham success on dogs or bad guys ? Lol
spok209 lol. That was funny. Im sure it was both
@@spok209 bad guys, 6 at this point.
Great success?
I carried 147 hydra-shocks for a good 10 years, because that's what my first instructor told me to load in my gun. He was not only an instructor, but a mentor figure to me and so I took his advice. I have gone down to 124 jhp Federal HST, to get some more velocity, but I always have a spare mag of "shocks" in my vehicle.
The ballistic tests that I have seen on the 165 grain 40 caliber Hornady Critical Defense FTX is completely different than 9 mm. The results for the critical defense FTX 40 caliber were surprisingly good
One ting to consider is that if your sights are fixed,you may want to choose something that hits where you aim. I’ve found a drastic difference at 10 yards in elevation in the point of impact
I did research ammo before I bought a gun. A m&p 9c was my first gun and started off with Winchester pdx-1s but moved to 124 grain HSTs after i learned more. But made that decision with talking to a lot of people in the gun community. A few youtubers actually replied to questions I had which helped me a ton. TH-cam can be a very good source of information if you use it right. Your pistol/rifle/shotgun value/performance video helped me a lot as well.
Reliable information concerning ammunition is hard to come by due to 100 years of myths and misconceptions. Read the books--Stopping Power--Street Stoppers--and Stopping Power. The re the result of DOCUMENTED shootings and results compiled using statistical analysis.
Clearer and more detailed explanation than most. Good job.
I moved down to Mesa back in June from the imperial city of Chicago. I enjoy your videos
I protect my family with a Ruger SR40C and 165 grain Hornaday Critical defense. So I’m kinda the OutKast
You've convinced me to change to Federal HST. The Lucky Gunner tests impressed me too. It's expensive, but worth it. I have several 9mm Glocks and spare mags that I'll have to load.
Hst is king
Well the cost seems to have gone up. But I will end up buying and carrying the federal 147 hst. I had already chosen that round after watching it tested on youtube videos. Thanks for the video. 😁👍
Thanks for the break down. Critical defence was the round that the gun shop picked for me when i bought my first handgun. Its a bit pricey. Thanks for the better options. Your videos have taught me alot!
Glad you enjoy them!
Yes, exactly, they all make money when you fall for the Hornady pitch. I listened to a short round table talk with Hornady people. It was laughable how they described this end all, be all, perfect for all situations round! It didn't stand even the basic common sense test!
Howdy! After watching your video I felt it be necessary I bring to the attention of your viewers; the reason, we in public safety would want less penetration from the projectile. When in high stress situations (or compact engagement areas) it is vital that we pay diligent attentiveness to the direction of aim. This is what is typically refereed to as back drop, or extended penetration marking. Making positively certain that if/when our round goes completely through the intended target; no one will be injured on the other side of the target, ensuring maximum safety of innocents and bystanders. It is rare when engaging a target that all other factors to the shot are definitively exempt, and there is nothing else to determine but the shot itself. When being the individual making the decision to be the first line of defense; either on the job or with loved ones I hope you all will take careful thought on how you plan on being the protector. CCW courses alone do not make you ready for the truly difficult choices in this realm of thinking.
To all of you please stay safe and take what you will from this!
Lucky Gunner's study made me ditch Hornady's ammo altogether and go with Speer Gold Dot or Cor Bon DPX.
It's a good study!
"I'm not sayin' your babys ugly...", I love your John-isms. Nice video John, thank you.
"Canadian tuxedo" is a great one, too!
Thanks so much for this, my man. I’m looking for appropriate carry ammo for my sig p938. I was originally going for the hornady, but I’m glad I watched this before purchasing!! I’ll definitely be going for the federal. Thank you and God bless
Agree with the presenter, HST beats Hornady all day. More consistent, cheaper and blossoms beautifully. Hornady sells a ton with the glossy box and the bullet for all occasions...can't have it all. HST all day and if not then +P Gold Dots.
You can get Federal HST for around 30-40 cents per round.
Hornady Critical Defense is around $1 to $1.25 per round.
You can shoot more than twice as much for the same ammo budget, so I shoot and carry HST.
EDIT: He says pretty much the same thing at the end, never mind.
where do yu get hst that cheap. i see average $1 per round
www.targetsportsusa.com/default.aspx
$400 for a 1000 round case. Hard to beat.
lone mazter sgammo.com the 50rd boxes are 23 or 24 ish dollar s
sae1095hc Yeah no. I get Hornady Critical Defense for 55c/ round usually and have seen HST listed for $1 or more before. Price varies by where you look.
@@TheFlyingCougar seen a guy get shot 24 times in the head and chest with a 9mm (hornady critical defense). He then got on his motorcycle and drove himself to the hospital. He survived with non life threatening injuries. Seen a guy get hit once in the chest with a 40s&w (Federal Hydrashocks) and he dropped and died before the paramedics came. 9mm is weak and hornady products are junk
You raise very good points on both types of ammo. Why I do prefer critical defense is that for a daily carry, I do not want the round to over penetrate, I want to stop the threat. It goes without saying that you are responsible for every round, so, for your everyday citizen who is not battling a Heat style foe with multiple levels of body armor, I don't want that round to do harm to an innocent bystander.
Critical Defense consistently underpenetrates. Underpenetration can get you killed. The 115 gr Critical Defense penetrates similarly to the 115 gr SilverTip. The SilverTip is the round that got Special Agents Jerry Dove and Ben Grogan killed due to its underpenetration. Oh, and did I mention that the Critical Defense underpenetrates?
@@johnryan6658You are one of the few people on TH-cam whom understand Handgun terminal ballistics.
@johnryan6658 well thank God you are not limited to shooting just one bullet then. Keep shooting till the perp is down... the more you know...
@@Lumpia_In_Texas Or just choose ammunition that meets minimum guidelines for effectiveness
critical duty 135gr +p for me, i love the hst as well, great projectile.
Federal came out with a 150gr load, which is what I use. It's specifically for guns with barrels shorter than 4". Excellent ballistics and noticeably less recoil.
Probably the worst bullet that Federal makes...150 grain....check out the meat test with the Federal 150 grain by Paul Harrell. Too low in power and too heavy...HST 124 and 147 are the best of the best...
115 grain will go a lot fasterrrrrr
Thank you for the great video. I have done some testing myself plus watched a lot of videos on these two rounds and yes the HST may get a little bigger but from what I've seen it clogs a lot easier than the critical defense and from the wound cavities that I have seen in ballistics gel I honestly feel like even though the critical defense doesn't expand quite as large it seems like the wound cavity is bigger so while HST is an amazing round and I do have some for backups. I personally feel Underwood Xtreme Defender are amazing and the Hornady Critical Defense would be my second choice and then third would be the HST for me
Rarely see any videos where the HST failed to expand unless it’s the 147’s due to slow velocity.
None of this ammo has any documented shootings.
@@robertwatson818 What are you talking about? Federal HST and Speer Gold Dots are law enforcement standard these days. They have both been proven on the streets thousands of times.
@@AtomicStateDelivery None of this ammo is street proven at all much less thousands of time. There are not thousands of police civilian shooting a year. There is NO documentation of this ammo being used in a shooting. Any mention would be anecdotal at best. There must be some official documentation in the form of police reports, ER doctor's report, pathologist's findings, coroner's reports and more. Documentation must be verifiable also. None of this is forth coming. All these NEW "self defense' offerings are for the purpose of making money--period. Oh--they are NEW also! Did I mention they re NEW? Ammo from the early nineties will work just fine. There is none for NEW self defense ammo. Use what is proven to work. Some this ammo barely cycles my Glocks and is not as powerful as my practice loads. 400 foot pounds at the target is the minimum for reliable stopping ability. More is better up to about 650 foot pounds after which there is no additional stopping effect.
I recently purchased a case of Federal 124 gr HST standard pressure rounds and am running them thru my Gen 4 Glock 19 and my HK VP9SK. So far I like them
Bro, I guess I am out of touch. I don't generally practice a ton with the good expensive stuff. Good for you.
Hst for this guy, 124 grain standard pressure
Shawn M 🖒
IrishStew aw are you irish bro. Love the Irish and the fact that loads of Americans are actually descendants of Irish immigrants. I'm Irish
Shawn M Your baby, wife, and mama are all ugly.
Great choice. Works great in my Sig P938. Excellent performance from a short barrel.
James McCartan When I was stationed in Germany (1981-1983) I had an Irish girlfriend named Willimina. Lovely girl.
Here are the top three factors to consider in "best defense ammo" : 1) feed reliability 2) FEED RELIABILITY and 3) see 1 and 2.
I mean, FMJ feeds most reliably. I still won't carry it for self-defense.So there are other considerations.
A FMJ that fires and strikes the intended target is 100% more effective than a JHP that jams on the feed ramp and then renders the pistol inoperative. Of course you or I would advise someone who has an autoloader that ONLY feeds FMJ to either get a better pistol or at least see a gunsmith.
You have a point. I think a lot of people buy fancy bullets and never confirm that they run well. I made the same mistake in my younger days, but I learned.
I had a S&W 457 .45 ACP in the mid 90s that absolutely would NOT feed FEDERAL "Hydra-Shoks" and I also encountered multiple failures with "Gold-Dots" in a SIG P-228 9mm and an H&K USP 45c!!. Very high quality expensive pistols JAMMING with very expensive ammo.
@@craigdamage Glock pistols feed anything.
I am old school 64 years old and retired leo . I carried a revolver as a duty weapon in the 1980 s- 1990s I retired in 1996. A friend reloaded me some reversed hollow base wadcutters with a. +p power load . They were good on small game animals ,but there were made without a gas check or jacketing of any sort. The +p powder load would actually melt the bullet s base so you have to clean good to keep shooting . But overall I think it would be a very effective round and will continue to try something that's new again.
My primary defense ammo is Federal HST. My secondary defense ammo is Speer Gold Dot.
Ordered up some hst’s. Always run critical defense, but I think I’ll switch. Thanks for the education John.
Jay hope you'll never need those HST's but if you do they won't let you down.
Please switch
Hst is king
I'm a huge fan of the critical defense round 💯
Critical Defense or Critical Duty?
Luckygunner is a great resource. One of the reasons i carry hst in my shield and 110 ftx in my 637.
Great info, and well made. And I must say, the somebody send me ammo edit was absolutely hilarious!!! 😜. Keep up the good work, good info for avg concealed carry guy!!
Thanks!
Another great video John. And I pretty much agree with your choices 100%. I use HST or Gold Dot in all my defensive handguns, even my McRib. :-) As you mention, HST (and Gold Dot) can be found pretty economically online. In 9mm I also prefer the 124 grain option as it has enough velocity to expand consistently in most all the tests I've seen.
Not affordable anymore but agree with the choices!
In lower velocity calibers/barrels I think the Critical Defense expands more reliably.
Thats exactly what it was designed for, and this video doesn't even talk about that aspect. Not all 9mm guns are created equal. My glock 17 will still get the HSTs but the critical defense is better suited for my xds 9mm with a 3.3 inch barrel.
Yup thats why critical defense works just fine in standard pressure 38 special, but HSTs need not only +P pressure, but a completely different bullet design as well.
I have seen the opposite in gel and more realistic tests with hst being more consistent and expanding more reliably while xtp rounds tend to require more speed
@@jorgesolis9468
Whatchu talkin bout? Nobody said anything about XTPs, but yeah you are right about them. XTPs definitely need a good bit of velocity to expand and even then, they don't expand a whole lot, as intended. They are more of a penetration round with just a little expansion for hunting rather than a defensive round. They are great for 357 magnum or 357 sig though. Could work for 9mm as a winter carry load too.
@@MegaAppleshit the commentor was saying lower velocity and shorter barrels better for xtp (ftx) rounds which is false gold dots are the best all around pistol round hst are a happy in between ftx and xtp work best for penetrating deeper with faster rounds
I agree with all the points. I carry Critical Duty +p, why? It feeds the most reliably in my CZ75.
One thing to consider are the laws of the state in which you live. Communist New Jersey has no concealed carry license so we're limited to protecting ourselves only in our homes and businesses. That said, they limit us even further with a myriad of laws concerning magazine capacity and bullet type. Mags are limited to 15 rounds. The law on hollow points is not clear to me - if someone KNOWS (not thinks) please let me know. As a result, for my home defense, I play it safe and load the Critical Defense since they are not a hollow point. John, I appreciate your content. Very informative without the hype and nonsense. I especially like the episodes where the bad guy takes the "room temperature challenge".
Yeah in New Jersey, EFMJ is best.
Interesting. I didn't realize the FTX isn't considered a hollow point. Even Hornady's own marketing is a little unclear:
"The FTX® - at the forefront of Critical Defense® - maximizes the potential of a hollow point bullet..."
I use HST 124 grain +p as my defensive round only, I train with federal 124 grain ball rds so in a defensive situation i will know what the recoil will be and to get my follow up shots on target.
I just don't understand the people who dislike the video, information is brought forward for a personal determination to be made. So do they dislike how you presented it or they just disapprove of your info. Second I carry HSTs as I'm in Phoenix too because no one wears heavy clothing so the Critical Duty ended up as target practice.
There are several trolls sent by their troll lords who are subbed just to thumbs down videos.
probably a mix of youtube anti-gunners and people who spent beaucoup money on meme ammo.
I disliked because you posted this.
Currently carry Sig Sauer 124g V-Crown JHP and it has worked for me so far. I tried Hornady Critical Defense and it didn't feed through my gun well
You won me over from Critical Defense!! All I carry is HST!!! Thank you brother!! God bless you and your family!!
You as well.
@@ASPextra 👍👌🙏🙏🙏
Thank You, When I bought my 9mm SFXD Mod 2 W/ Grip Zone, the gun shop recommended me the HST type and that's what I use :)
Glad that Springfield reminded you where to hold the gun! ;)
Since no two models of gun handle the same ammo well, I ran 40-50 rounds (divided into 4-5 targets over different days) of twenty different carry and range ammunition. For my 9mm Walther PPS M2, the Federal 124gr standard pressure HST was the most accurate (centered and tight shot pattern) carry ammo. The Hornady 115gr Critical Defense FTX was the next best carry ammo. Winchester 124 gr +P Defender bonded JHP was pretty accurate, but much to my surprise, the Hornady 135 gr Critical Duty XTP was the least accurate ammo ( worse than cheap FMJ range ammo varieties tested). The Speer Gold Dot 124gr GDHP also was a poor choice in my gun. These are two top performers in most online reviews. It pays to do some comparisons in one’s own concealed carry pistol. Once knowing what ammo shoots well, then one can take into consideration other factors such as: ballistic gel or PH’s “meat target” penetration and bullet expansion performance; availability; and, cost. The comparisons I made included range ammo, so I knew what cheap ammo I should practice with that performed similarly as my carry ammo choices.
Damn .... $0.40 for a defensive round. That's usually the cheapest you can find .357 Sig range ammo. Now i'm starting to see why everyone shoots 9mm.
Bingo. $0.20 for FMJ 9mm all day long. But when the chips are down, I'd rather be holding a .357 Sig
AND... what do they cost now? If you can find them...
@@freebirthfreddy boy these comments did not age well
Great video, thanks John!
Underwood extreme penetrators but I run the Speer gold dot and lawman through my .357’s
I've followed Lucky Gunner's and Shooting The Bull's results with great interest for years. For what they do, they do very well, but I have some reservations about whether they are looking at the right thing. Everybody is looking at the bullet and not at the wound. As you pointed out, you stop someone with loss of blood or hitting a vital spot. If the latter, I fail to see how big the bullet gets matters, a bullet in the heart kills no matter what size, so for this, penetration is all important. And, just like your garden hose, the thing that matters most in loss of blood is the diameter of the wounds, entrance or exit.
When I look at the good gel tests, I look at the hole in the front face of the block. In most cases the only difference there is variance from caliber to caliber, not bullet to bullet within caliber (this makes sense because nothing has yet expanded) so blood loss would be a function of what organ you hit (optimally heart and surrounding blood vessels) combined with how big a hole a bullet makes initially. So what would matter is, again, not how big the bullet gets but penetration and how big of a caliber you can shoot straight in a civilian combat. As well as how many bullet wounds you put into the perp up to the point of diminishing returns (emptying your magazine, double stack or not, is FAR beyond that point).
I also look at the permanent wound channels and I can see nowhere near the difference in the sizes of these in the gel as there is in the expansion of the bullet. The one exception to this is when bullets start to tumble. Then even most small slow bullets make far larger segments of channel than any, not tumbling, caliber. And the mere physical movement of tissue in the temporary channel makes little wounding difference. Further, small, slow bullets are much more prone to erratic tumbling, no matter what their starting and ending diameter. This may go a long way to explaining why, for many decades, European police were able to carry .32 Auto effectively.
The one thing most people neglect is the numerical wound ballistics score that Shooting the Bull does occasionally and Lucky Gunner doesn't do at all. It, and inches of penetration, are the *only* measures about what would happen to the body shot. Bullet weight doesn't do this, nor does bullet diameter. And as far as I can see for the purposes of self defense that, along with penetration, is the real measure of bullet performance.
IMHO the Winchester PDX1 is an underrated round. Great performance and readily available in just about any store I see ammo sold in. I wish it got the credit it deserves.
Be careful, not TERRIBLE, but others are better. th-cam.com/video/ZJ0et3Y0TKE/w-d-xo.html
I use Speer Gold Dot because the round performs well in compact service and pocket pistols. I don't want one round for my G19 and another for my p398.
Have you looked at the Underwood rounds? They've been working with a quicker burning powder getting them impressive velocities in short barrels.
I loved/hated being op force during deadly force training in the Corps. I would have swollen hands from everyone shooting center mass.
Two to the chest one to the head.
These days they changed failure to stop to 2 to the chest 1 to the groin. Semper Fidelis.
Agreed. HST loader here.
I love your objectivity and the way you mitigate backlash.
I carried HST 147 gr until it wouldn’t feed in certain handguns.
Then I saw how the CD would penetrate fabric prior to going into ballistic gel, as required by the fbi standard, and then dump ALL of its energy without over penetration.
The standard includes, from the Miami incident, penetrating a clothing barrier, penetrating a limb and delivering a deadly strike.
Everything I’ve seen, the CD does it.
I challenge you to
Hornady critical defense 115 grain
Same. But I carry subcompacts, and I'm not running +P through them, I think that's just dumb.
TheMMSpirit i rum mine through my glock 26 tbh I have a few boxes of hst but I feel like Hornady c defense is my go to..even for home defense ..my 26 is my home defense weapon as well..I do have others though I just shoot it the best
My agency uses HST as our duty carry. I now carry it as my defense carry too
Who do you work for?
Why not underwood
bertito43 what caliber is your bullet?
most important is that the ammo reliably functions in your pistol. Any premium JHP from reputable companies like Federal, Winchester, Remington, Hornady, and some of the 'botique' companies like Double Tap and Corbon offer excellent defensive ammunition.
Make sure you use the same magazines that positively function at the range. Not all magazines are created equal
One thing he mentioned at the end is that you must choose a round that reliably functions in your firearm. Make sure you run several boxes through your particular firearm and make sure it functions!
Great reminder!
@@ASPextra Thanks! Love the content. I help teach a free basic pistol class offered by my county sheriff and I have quoted you and I recommend the channel as follow on learning and recommend the MMM ASP ankle IFAC as range or daily carry. Mine was “misplaced” but I have another on order.
The best rounds that I have tested are the Lehigh Defense/Underwood Xtreme Defender rounds, Federal Premium HST rounds, Speer Gold Dot rounds and Hornady Critical Duty rounds.
I have the least amount of testing time with the Xtreme Defender rounds but they performed basically identical in every firearm used and every test medium fired into with or without barrier penetration first.
With the HST and Gold Dot rounds, they performed virtually identical in every manner and in every test medium. With both the department that I work for and in personal use, I have 13 years of using and practicing with HST and Hydrashok rounds but with the Gold Dot rounds, I have only tested them on my own for about 5 years.
With the Critical Duty rounds, I have tested and used them also for around 5 years. They perform the best when having to penetrate a barrier in most mediums but also perform well when no barrier is penetrated. Where they do not perform as well as the HST, Hydrashok and Gold Dot rounds is in round expansion. They only expand about 75% of what the other expanding rounds do.
I prefer HST and Gold Dot rounds over anything else but if the Xtreme Defender rounds continue to perform like they all have thus far, then they will take the place of the HST and Gold Dot rounds.
What barrel length were you using to test the duty? I couldn't get any expansion w/o barrier with my vp9.
I bought 10 boxes of 90 grain Underwood extreme defender plus p plus, they traveled right at 1520fps, I shot them threw windshields ballistic gel 3 1982 6-in thick southern belle phone books nothing stopping that round, 500, foot pounds of energy 👍
@@OzzyTanks6969, I have now switched to Underwood Xtreme Defender ammo exclusively since my initial post. In +P if available and in the heaviest grain weight available per caliber. My results are very similar to yours.
Great video as usual...by the way..my the Lord bless you and your family.
Thanks!
Great review and very helpful! By the way, I don't think your green screen setup is working. I can still see the background. :p
Federal HST 147gr +p is the king of carry 9mm
Macho Man Randy Savage loaded in all my 4" plus barrel guns. Gold dot is better for shorter barrels though
Keep in mind that the increased velocity from the +p will result in larger expansion but slightly less penetration as well. I stick with the standard pressure 147 gr HST.
Golden sabers are nice
Semper Fi would you mind explaining to me how that creates extra wear on the gun? I don’t know the difference between pressures
Thanks John! As if HSTs weren't hard enough to find already! Lol. 124gr Standard Pressure for my Shield, 147gr Standard Pressure for my CZ P-09, and 180gr for my G27. Can't beat it.
I've been following your videos for awhile. I find your videos perfect. I can't think of anything to improve. Furthermore, i carry a Sig p250 subcompact .45 with Hornady critical defense right hip tuckable holster for times when I'm not suppose to carry like at work lol
Shit at least you’re packing at work .
the hornady marketing is pretty legit. carried it until i took Reid's pistol I course. now i'm an HST man.
seen a guy get shot 24 times in the head and chest with a 9mm (hornady critical defense). He then got on his motorcycle and drove himself to the hospital. He survived with non life threatening injuries. Seen a guy get hit once in the chest with a 40s&w (Federal Hydrashocks) and he dropped and died before the paramedics came. 9mm is weak and hornady products are junk
J yang
That sounds like bullshit.
"In handgun bullets you do not get hydrostatic shock..."
10mm would like to know your location
10mm is no different in that regard. Hydrostatic shock comes from speeds over 2250 fps.
Active Self Protection Extra Thank you John! I spend all day. Telling people this!
@snoopy dubnation because FN gets weird sometimes
speer gold dots
prodigy2k7 In +P. And they make a short barrel version also. I keep those in our carry EMP's. As far as I know, NYPD carries 9mm Gold Dot in +P. Plenty of cold weather there, but they also have to be concerned with over penetration in such a congested environment.
gb93669 NYPD reports the 124 gr +p gold dots bounced off a carheart coat. Hmmmmmm
Remington golden saber 9mm 124 gr +p are good too😅
BlueWRX z. Speer Gold Dot for me too in alllll my guns. These HST guys need to watch a bunch of REAL tests, instead of marketing and advertising tests. Just do more research is all I ask. HSTs are NOT impressive in REAL tests.
Just watch some Paul Harrell videos on "the meat target". He shows it like it really is.
I try to keep it simple. Carry ammunition that is in common use by law enforcement agencies. Those bullets are not only the most tested in ballistics gel, but also have a long track record of performance in real life. I don’t like bullets like the xtreme defender that look cool in ballistics gel but have little to no track record of actually stopping bad guys in real life. The ammo that makes the cut for me is HST, Gold Dot, Winchester Ranger Bonded (and whatever the civilian name is), and Critical Duty. Any of those is more than good enough so there’s not too much reason to overthink if you have one of those. The only caveat there I would add is if you’re shooting a shorter barrel gun (less than 4 inches), look for ammo that’s either designated for shorter barrels, or has been tested and shown satisfactory results. I know regular HST, for example, is known to perform in shorter barrels. Whereas Gold Dots have a SKU that’s marked for shorter barrels that you should look for.
Love you are all your work John. I carry spear gold dot. It's the local Leo brand where I live. Good enough for them, then it's good enough for me.
Thanks so much for the encouragement Ryan; I really appreciate it. Hope you have a great day!
Ryan Kelley I believe that NYPD uses them in +P as well. It's what I carry. If you ever had to defend your ammo choice in court, it doesn't hurt to be carrying what the "finest", big city police department carries.
Yessir. It's also not going to break then bank to train with.
Just trivia, but 9mm bullets aren't truly "9mm"; they're not .365", (or .354"), they're actually .355".
It certainly can be. A .380 ACP, 9mm Lugar, .357 SIG, and several other cartridges use a bullet that is .355". .38 Super and a few others use a .356" bullet. .38 Short Colt, .38 Long Colt, .38 S&W Special, .357 S&W Magnum, plus a few other cartridges use .357" bullets. As soon as you get it all figured out, you'll come across another cartridge or two that will leave you scratching your head again.
I cast my own lead bullets, and my particular 9mm handguns like bullets that are sized .358", just like my .38 Spl and .357 Mag revolvers.
Maybe John shoots a lot of 9mm Makarov.....
Close enough. 0.355 is 9.017 mm. I'm sure it was easier to call it 9mm than 9.017mm.
How did you arrive at "9mm bullets aren't truly 9mm" ??? 9mm is 9.01mm which is 0.355inch see this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9%C3%9719mm_Parabellum ...look at the column on the top right of the page.
josh benware I'd have to look at a loading manual, but I think 38 refers to the case and 357 to the bullet. Manufacturers all gotta come up with a name for their fancy bullets. 357 Sig is not 357 at all but they wanted to market it as "just as powerful as the magnum."
Love being first. I think I'm going to go with Underwood for 380 but currently carry Critical Duty for everything. HST seems like an awesome round too. Have you heard anything about them clogging?
Josh is right. XTP/FTX have a poor history of consistent expansion. Even when they expand, they don't expand very much. The HST is the most consistent I've ever seen in gel testing with denim.
josh benware cool. Imma check it out. Even though they make them soft tips instead of hollow tips to prevent clogging I can imagine it could happen. Maybe a flawed design. I just got scared off from jhp's after the 4 or 5 Speer gold dots getting clogged in that guys carhartt jacket a while back in the news.
ShootingTheBull410 actually has a video covering the Carhartt jacket issue.
LoneWanderer360 cool man well I feel better about that option then. Thanks for the knowledge guys that's why I come here. So what rounds would you guys recommend? I was thinking cor bon or Speer gold dots.. hst maybe?
Feeling crappy about my sd loads now lol
Federal HST’s saved my life! At the time it was my duty ammo. 230 gr. +P Federal HST. Not one torso shot penetrated through. My department switched to Speer Gold Dot 230 gr because the firearms instructors claim that it has better penetration through walls and vehicles. When I carry off duty, and when size doesn’t matter, I carry my Glock 19 with 147 gr HST +P or standard velocity. The standard velocity recoils less but seems to penetrate a little deeper and does not expand as much. The standard velocity still expands to a respectable diameter for self defense. If size matters, I carry my Glock 43 or my custom S&W 380 Bodyguard. With the Glock 43 I prefer the 124 gr standard or +P Federal HST. Unfortunately, as far as I was informed, Federal HST in 380 does not perform as well as Precision One or Fiocchi hollow points. For everything else. Federal HST’s. Great job John... I couldn’t agree more and you covered all bases.
Just want to thank you for your in depth data and attention to detail you are very informative and knowledgeable. Keep up the good work and videos!
Glad to help!
I like the Sig V-Crown 124gr for my main EDC round. Close 2nd would be Barnes, TacXPD all copper, 115gr. For home defense Team Never Quite 100gr frangible holler points are my go to to minimize over penetration so my neighbors aren't in as much danger.
I carry depleted uranium rounds in my EDC !
Peter Gozinya lol that's cool I know that's what the military did with what they had left over and even made tank parts with it. Is it cheap?
Could you explain what that is, please?
Klaus S google it lol
Klaus S depleted uranium is a very dense material, a bullet the same size would weigh 200 grains, the military uses it to penetrate bomb shelter strength concrete bunkers.
It's also still radioactive, but depleted, hence the name.
Thanks, yes I could but I like to let people know that their input matters and give Stefan F. the opportunity to teach all of us a lesson. :)
Underwood deep penetrator 40 S&W
Underwood makes the best defense loads in my opinion. It’s a hot load and i can still shoot it without a problem.
Recovering Federal HST coolaid drinker here to say Winchester Ranger T is supreme. Nothing like those talons.
Ballistic tests say that the Ranger is okay. HST performs more consistently.
luckygunner website has tested a bunch of ammo and yea, the Ranger T did terrific.
Active Self Protection Extra even I looked at the lucky Gunner labs results for the ranger t in 45 it outperformed the HST by a good half inch penetration and wider expansion.
One thing people over look is the kind of wound the bullet leaves behind. Sharp edges causes more bleeding. FMJs suck because it's like poking a hole in fabric with a sharp pencil. The hole left behind is tiny compared to the size of the pencil because the fabric stretches. The same thing happens with FMJs and that's why the size that a hollow-point expands is only part of the story. The Ranger-T ammo is gnarly. It's the same reason why star-shaped and bladed bayonets are so much more deadly than the old smooth bayonets used on muskets. Also the same reason broad-head arrows are so much deadlier than regular pointed arrows, causes way more bleeding which leads to faster exsanguination.
The Ranger-T in .45acp was wicked! Had by far the biggest expansion And for sure had the sharpest edges.
I personally use 180gr HSTs in my S&W M&P40. The performance of those rounds are top tier.
I use 124 grain Speer Gold Dot, but I’ve used HST and Critical defense in the past. Overall, as long as it has a good track record I’m not too picky about my load.
SCAM ON HST packaging : Only buy the LE edition , not the civilian 20 round box .. exact same bullet , different package cost you almost twice the price !!!
Scam might be a harsh word , but you will guaranteed feel pretty butthurt if ya buy the wrong box ,lol .. LE 50 round boxes only folks !!
Never seen the 50 round LE box. The 25 round boxes are $24 everywhere around me.
Yep I buy at outdoor limited online, they are all $18.50 and I paid about $14 ground shipping for 250 rounds.
LoneWanderer360 even online ya gotta shop around , I bought the 50 round LE box from Lucky Gunner , paid $34.95 ,then found out many other sites have the same box for $20 with the same price or cheaper shipping then LG
$20 for boxes of 50 online...
SIG VCROWN ELITE!!!
I like all of them as long as my gun feeds them reliably
I recall the Shooting the Bull video testing Hornady Critical Defense 9mm out of a 3 inch barrel and it seemed to be the best performer at that point in time. I think this was a few years ago and there were still a lot of different kinds of ammo yet to be tested. Now I want to go find this video on 9mm Federal HST in a 3in barrel.
Oh no, he TOTALLY didn't really like the Critical Defense. HST was immensely better.
HST is better in 9mm but that's a good round for 380.
Why isn't this channel more popular?
Growing fast. :)
corbon dpx
Randall Muir wish you could still get Corbon
Chinnrott Chinn another manufacturer bought their supplier and Corbin is working on getting the dpx back out there in large numbers
Randall Muir if you can find it. Almost every website its out of stock.
Check out SIG SAUER ammo and COLT. Colt looks like the same bullet just blackened.
John Langdon Pete Pi Jr's new company is Defiant Munitions.
9mm 115grain Blazer Brass Full Metal Jacket !! Best carry ammo EVER !! 😁
Obvious troll is obvious. ;)
Active Self Protection Extra Hahahaa !! Ya caught me ,lol
Josh B that's the ammo I most frequently see in homicides. I mean not exactly blazer brass but fmj practice ammo of different brands
When that's all you can shop lift from your local Bass pro shops.😲
Alejandro Santana I've killed a lot of paper, soda cans/bottles and steel with those rounds.
Hornady all the way. To the guy that gets hit it probably dose not matter what brand of bullet.
I don't think you watched the video.
The critical defense usually meets the minimum FBI penetration depth minimums, but sometimes just short in the 11-12 inch range, hst on the other hand always meets the minimum and flirts with the maximum sometimes.
The critical defense surpasses the Winchester Silvertips that's for sure
The critical defense surpasses the Winchester Silvertips that's for sure
Penetration tests are overrated. I would rather have a bullet that under penetrates than over. A bullet that stops quick dumps all it's energy quick, doesn't waste energy going through someone to keep going and less likely to kill people behind your target.
I got shot in the left eye with a .40 S&W Critical Defense round and shot in the right eye with a .40 S&W HST round, and I’ve got to say, both rounds pretty much liquified my eye and took my head clean off, but if I had to choose which projectile hurt more, I’d probably go with the Hornady Critical Defense round. Not only because it damaged more of my brain and skull, but also because I’ve always really liked Hornady’s marketing, their boxes look really, really cool. You do not want to be the guy who gets shot with uncool ammunition. “Critical Defense”! ...that just sounds so much cooler!
Good video. I currently carry with the Critical defense. I have had the red polymer tip actually jam my gun when cycling, more than once... Gonna have to switch.
Exactly Daniel. Those stupid tips always fall out. Hornady is crap.
dude.
I do see how the Fed 147gr is a great perpetrator and expander, but the velocities are sub sonic. This kind of defeats the purpose of carrying a 9mm in my eyes. The lower velocities do not lend well to hydrostatic shock, which by the way does occur in handgun rounds.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock_(firearms)
2500+fps. Read it closely.
Your eyes are mis-calibrated. Bullets at pistol velocities don't produce the effect often called hydrostatic shock. You can only count on the crushing damage to critical tissues with pistol bullets.
Some folks carry smaller pistols for concealability and need less recoil for more accurate shooting. Example: Sig P938 with Federal 150gr HST Micro.
I read that page, and it doesn't say anything about 2500fps being necessary for hydrostatic shock, that was just how one study defined "high velocity" for rifle bullets. The numbers given for hydrostatic shock were at least 500 ft-lb and 12" penetration from one source, and at least 1,100fps from another. Both of these should be achievable with pistol rounds.
3rd 💪 The more projectiles for my rocket launcher the better 😃😉
Ili : I was 3rd !
Federal Premium HYDRA-SHOK JHP
HST far outstrips the older hydra-shok bullet.
HST is an advancement of the old Hydra Shok round. But federal still makes it because people like you still think it's the best there is. It's funny they even sell it for more than HST, lol
josh48315 It's not the best......But it's good enough.
i still like the 124 gr. hydra shok. Hst is good also can't go wrong with federal
Here in New Jersey, although the law says you can own HST for home defense, if you use said ammo in defense of your home the local county prosecutor (Any county in NJ) will prosecute you for pre-meditated murder. Their line of thinking is that since you thought ahead of time to get an ammo that guarantees death then you intentionally wanted to kill the perp therefore you pre-planed the perps death, hence pre-meditated murder. Just a heads up on what they do to people who protect themselves here in New Jersey.
After doing my research, I prefer Speer Got Dot, especially in 147 Grain. A close second would be Critical Duty. Critical Defense and HST would be 3rd and 4th respectively.
Hi sorry I know this is a year old but could you explain why you choose the speer over the hst? I'm just wondering for myself I'm still debating on which one to go with the internet pretty much leans towards the hst but you can't always believe the internet lol
What barrel length were you getting good expansion with the duty?