Ive never been "into" audio or speakers or hi-fi. I just wanted a basic speaker upgrade for my PC and found this channel. Now, I just love watching this channel for a calm, relaxing experience. Paul is the Bob Ross of audio art.
@@paulgoodwin1881 Bob Ross. The most relaxing videos you will ever watch. Got a life problem? Watch Bob Ross draw a picture. Life got you down? Watch Bob Ross. Feel great and want to associate your feelings of awesomeness to a visual? Watch Bob Ross draw a picture. Bob Ross is a legend.
I used to look at loudspeakers and often think “no way am I paying that much for a speaker that only plays down to the mid forties”. Taking it onboard that a subwoofer is a room treatment tool as much as it is a low frequency attenuator has been the number one best bit of hifi advice I’ve ever gotten.
"Subwoofer as room treatment" was just a salesman's line and it clearly worked. A single subwoofer will nearly always do the opposite compared with the bass output of your stereo main speakers over the same bandwidth. The benefit of a single subwoofer is to extend bandwidth in the bass region, increase output in the bass region, and reduce distortion in the mains as you reduce its work load and the subwoofer itself should output lower distortion as it will have a larger driver and dedicated amplifier. Want room treatment, then you need multiple subs.
thank you. I will be sending this video to everybody that ask me why i use a sub even if on specs it doesn't get as low as my floor standers. I do have some bass problem in my less than perfect listening room and the sub placed in a very specific way was the only way to solve that, and the sound is beautiful now !
Paul, I just wanted to say that yesterday I got “The Sound” from my system that I believe you (and others) are always describing. I have no words for it. I cannot believe it. One way to quantify this new sound is to say that I have always been an advocate for using EQ, but with this sound there is no need for EQ (other than to adjust my sub volume for some recordings). Rich, 3D, width, depth are terms that could be used, but just scratch the surface of describing the sound.
As an alternative to expensive full range tower speakers, get a pair of stand mount or book shelf speakers with great imaging / soundstage/ resolving qualities (ie KEF R 3 or your preferred brand ). Add 2 subs and life is good!
Nice simple explanation. A big problem for any floor standing speaker is "floor bounce" which has the bass reflecting off the floor and partially cancelling the bass coming out of the speakers. You can see it when running a REW sweep, there are always cancellation valleys in the bass that can't be EQ'd out. Adding boost to those spots in the EQ just make the room ring like a bell Having a sub can help greatly with this dilemma. A strategy is to literally put the sub in your listening chair, move around the room and listen to where the bass sounds the best, then put the sub in that spot.
About 6 years ago Paul advised me privately (via a series of emails) about the benefits of subwoofers. I was a traditionalist. Two-way audio purist. I bought a sub on Paul’s strong recommendation. He did not recommend the sub specifically. Changed everything. Subwoofers get a bad wrap because of home theater kids blasting subs. IMO If you do it right, you’ll never notice the sub. The sound will be much larger and deeper. Get a sub. Get two. Game changers. You’re welcome Paul.
Subs for "full range high efficiency" speakers is a MUST, due to the speakers inability to produce low end deep presence in music. Full range low efficiency speakers (like mine) do NOT need a sub at all. My Quads produce very deep presence (down towards 20hz) without even flinching. This is due to power requirements of the speaker. I drive my speakers (82db) at around 100 to 120 watts due to the bass driver being very needy with power to produce those low end frequencies. My V4's produce up to 170 watts if needed. Paul is absolutely correct with speakers that are not designed to produce deep low end frequency responses needing a sub (or 2). Very few high end speakers can do this. I am privileged to have such a speaker. So, it is not always needing a sub for your system if your speakers are capable of reproducing the very low end deep presence bass. Unfortunately, most speakers do need a sub or 2.
Thanks Paul. In the future can you go into why, as a result of the shortcomings of a listening room, high fidelity satellite speaker setups wouldn’t be an answer?
I was fortunate enough to sit in that room, the excellent tour guide played several tracks and let me play several more. I call it audio perfection. Until I listened to him answer this question I was not aware there was a sub in the room! Again perfection. If you can go take the tour, I felt like a little kid in a candy store.
Hi 👋, about 4/5 years ago, I had a strange phenomenon, whilst listening to some music, I could not understand why I was hearing some strange sounds, Even to the point when I was talking on the phone to somebody, I could hear something in the background, It was electric guitars and three acoustic guitars , I had placed on round the room and on the walls as pieces of art. I cannot play, but I still like the music instruments., at certain pitch and certain frequencies, the strings on the guitars would vibrate, the acoustic guitars were worse as they have a sound box, no more wall Art,
My grandparents had a summer house on an island, and there was a pretty busy shipping lane going right past it, as it was on the main route Stockholm (Sweden)-Turkku (Finland). As the big cruise ships would pass only a few hundred meters from the house, their massive engines would make the entire building vibrate: you would just experience this uneasy feeling, because most of the sound was subsonic, but if you were in the kitchen you would hear all the plates and wine glasses rattleling inside the cuboards.
One subwoofer is an improvement, and a pair even better. Aside from relieving some of the mechanical loading from the FR speakers in the lowest octave, subs can be positioned to take advantage of room gain, improve LF integrity, and alleviate SBIR issues simultaneously. Well-deployed subwoofers are an asset in any modern, high quality audio system. This wasn't the case back in the analog era, but the digital music (and digital home theater) revolution changed everything.
I solved the room modes in my small room with 2 homemade subs and a DSP (in addition to passive treatment), now the mains speakers play (an untouched signal) and after I hear that my special sub invention, and it is something exceptionally rare and special, removes the used room mode frequencies from the sound so they do not reflect back and cause standing waves.
That is absulutely true. For someone who loves to hear those subtones but be aware of condition that they will not affect rest. . I think is real pleasure because they seem to come from nowhere like from neighbours or outside . . Also in my case I am surprised with stereo going so down that when I silence one channel I can hear sub low definitely 3 times stronger than with two - because in specific location one cancels the second . To my more surprise with other set of speakers which is able also deliver the same I can listen to both and all is exceptional simply because they are located so that do not cancel themself and it is just delight. Unfortunately I prefer sounding of first set . Anyway for my small space I justify myself to accept deminshed version of subtones because bass is at perfect level and general impression is exactly without astonishing subbass too. . .
My experience with a small 2.1 setup (2-way front speakers). Once I have added a sub and set the crossover frequency at double of the lowest frequency reproducible by the front speakers, it had not only made a world of difference on the low end. Indeed, it had „opened“ the mid frequencies since the front speakers do not have to reproduce those lowest frequencies (lower than 80 Hz) which are anyway hard to acoustically localize.
Just added a subwoofer to my full range speakers, the result is wonderful. I can't hear the sub even when standing in front of it, and hear it filling in the low even while standing in front of the left speaker (the sub is on the far right). I rarely sit down while listening though. Downside is the sub carries much more into the kitchen than the speakers, so it can sound a bit droning there. keeping the door closed should help with that though
This kind of argues for having the FR-20 with only 2 woofers (smaller and less expensive) that you'll still hear maybe to 40-45 Hz from, and just use the sub for that really low bass anyway, placing the sub where it works best?
I would pick what your room dictate, as distance increases we need a lot more output from the speakers and that will sooner or later start to decrease sound quality. 🙂
@@PSA78 Comment was about bass in particular, not overall dB level and room size. Avg. person sits maybe 10 - 15 ft. from speakers and looks like FR-20s will easily accommodate that with 90 dB+.
A subwoofer is the best thing I ever added to my hifi system. Only trouble is, it means the next speaker upgrade is gonna be MORE expensive :D The subwoofer crawl was fun :)
i understand the problem of cancellation and building up of these low sound because of the room and placement and of course all the speakers. But why build speakers in such way that go so low if they are source of a problem you solve with another speaker, the subwoofer which placement solves the problem. Why not let out the part in the speakers that causes cancellation and standing waves and let that part of the frequences be played solely by the subwoofer? It is like a television with boxes, why build them, pay them if one plays the correct and better sound through a hifi system.
Paul so then why do you build speakers with drivers that go down to subwoofer range when as you say "you do not hear it unless you have a subwoofer". Would it not be easier to design speakers that are great at imaging w/o going real low, and then have a sub woofer...
In a previous video Paul said that the FR30's allow you to detach the lower bass unit from the upper mid and treble unit. This would allow you to position the mid/treble units for best sound stage and the bass units for best bass quality. That being the case why would you need a sub woofer?
Good point. I don't know for sure, but think detaching is only for transport, not in use. Besides that, the treble unit would be to low without being mounted higher up for proper displacement. The bass and treble unit are designed together to work optimal as is. Also the bass unit is used for a wider frequency range than a subwoofer unit, which causes the problems. A subwoofer unit is also more easy to place exactly where it would be best, because no direct line of sight is needed (for these low frequencies). Just my thoughts.
Hi 👋 Paul , I have been listening to your territorial advice on listening to music and set ups, For quite a few years, The full range speakers that you are demonstrating, look very impressive, and obviously cost a serious amount of money, But I haven’t to put a subwoofer in a room to compensate the lack of base response, Surely that is showing that the speakers are inefficient, And I could never get my head around why the driver units are mounted on the side, especially facing each other, which I would’ve thought cancelled out the base response, what happen any difference if you mounted the cabinets the other way round, so the drivers were facing the wall, then put sound effect and panels on the wall, or in that location angle facing into the room, Having a subwoofer located behind you, or in that region , I would’ve thought it would defeated the object of listening to music, that all intense purposes you are listening in front of you, as you would do if you was in a stadium or concert, I listen to my music through a very large power of transmission line, loudspeaker cabinets , that I built myself around 40 years ago, I am in my 70s , and I enjoy listening to a very wide range of music, From classical to heavy metal, The blues, And even Viking Nordic music, Luckily, I live in the region of the French countryside , My listening room is approximately 5 m x 7 m, And I am thinking of converting my attic at some point, money permitting, which is approximately 7 m x 12 m, the only problem this is got a vaulted ceiling, V , With very large oak beams, I know nothing about hi-fi equipment, Apart from it seems people spend a serious amount of money on it, seeking perfection, Great territorial , look forward to watching and listening to you next time, Merry Christmas and a happy New Year, Phil from the moulin France
I run 1980 A/D/S L810's and they provide more bass than I'll ever need . I tried using a sub and it just didn't sound right as it sounded as if a 3rd speaker was in the room
@@scottyo64Hi thank you for sharing your New Hampshire, old English era, architecture, I have worked on property similar to these back in the UK, I/was a specialist joiner cabinet maker,
Hey Paul, if this SUB is case, why did you put both subs into both towers of FR30? wouldn't it be best to have FR30 Sub unit removable to other locations so one does not need to buy additional SUBs???
'Ole Audiopile to Paul: This is rougn for both the experienced & the novice alike. I can't help but wonder why tweeters, midrange & woofers are so widely accepted & folks can't wrap their heads around the need for a sub-driver specifically built to task, the extreme bottom end. We simply ignored it before as unattainable. I was introduced to subs via something rather stupid, a DAK catalog about the circa 1982/83 when I purchased what I considered a no-brainer: a Cerwin Vega 12" passive sub. Over 40 years & umteen generations of sub gear later, I hardly need reminded but thanx.
I love my L-300’s. The bass finds me and blows my hair around wherever I am. Down the hall and in other rooms. I can’t imagine ever needing a sub but who knows?
Save money: Carpets, bookshelfs (with books) Use lamps as diffusers. There are a lot of things you can do to improve the acustics of your room😮 Another factor is the size of the woofers in a speaker. A lot of small woofers dont move the same ammount of air as a big woofer.🤔
What you just said is an argument for Arnie's quest for a midrange driver that could go down to 80Hz so he could keep a 3 way low order CO design with servo subs to 15Hz , midrange 80-4K and tweeter 4k to 40K. . The FR30 with subs is a 4 way system and the Passive Radiator overhanging bottom end now has to blend with the sub. Does it have a low end adjustment for doing that? Maybe a version of the FR30 without the PRs and a sealed box with solid response to response down to 40Hz designed to go with servo subs. I have lots of experience with the Genesis 1 with the 12 channel servo metal cone woofers and placement of the woofer towers is always a compromise and is best optimized for the type of music. If you want to feel the 18Hz in EDM then you won't get that seamless mid bass because the mid ribbon cannot establish a lot of energy at 120Hz. Nudell tried with the LEMIM on The IRS Beta's ( I still have) but they run into the problem of the 5 way crossover. The Betas used Carbon Fiber low mass servo woofers so better match the speed of the LEMIMs and I prefer that match to the heavy cone subs trying to match the ribbon mids from the Genesis ones. Read the TAS review of the Betas where HP found the mid bass integration was superior to that of the IRS.
I've just noticed something really similar recently. I have Focal Aria 948 speakers, and I did not really like the sound. It felt thin and a bit tiring to listen to. A couple of days ago I've realized that it sounds is a lot more balanced 3 meters behind the couch, from where I'm normally listening to. I can't really move a chair there, because there is the end of the dining table, but at least I know it's not the speaker's fault, but the room's.
oh my gush the white tower speaker show in your video look amazing , can you please let me the model name , thanks, by the way I have 4 subwoofer place in every corner of my room 😃and as you said , the low frequency feel that coming from my main speakers
the room does a lot of weird stuff to bass, subs play a limited range and can be placed in more locations with more adjustments options than speakers. invaluable tool. Anyone can listen for themselves, search for online tone generator, then do a sweep in the bass, 20hz to 100hz. now you know how frequencies are played back in your room. now come back and tell us how full range just a pair of passive speakers are.
Then why not use the best possible two-way stand mount you can afford with the sub(s)? Seems silly to spend big bucks on a full range unless it just so happens your listening and seating positions are harmonious with respect to bass….which is unlikely as Paul attests to. Maybe PS Audio should have focused on a killer stand mount.
Hi Paul belated seasonal greetings , another great informative video, it’s placement and compromise in the room you have , I have a sub and found a place for it and can hear the lower bass notes , and if couse where you put your speakers also has to be fine tuned as my listening room is also the front lounge also . Regards mark
As always, Paul nailed it. I, too, have always been a very vocal proponent of subwoofers - specifically active stereophonic subwoofers. Not only can subwoofers be placed independently from the speakers for optimal room response but the bass level can be conveniently adjusted on-the-fly to suit the music or the mood. The "Salt and Pepper to taste" philosophy. I've used active stereophonic subs in my main system with a variety of different speakers for over 12 years and I've never regretted it. Some well-powered, well-placed subs will completely transform your listening experience and will add a missing dimension.
I see from comments on this subject that people believe that adding a couple of subs will prevent all sound from being reflected off the walls and remove all standing waves. I suspect they are wrong.
@@michaelwright1602 I have been an audio enthusiast for over 50 Years. I design and build my own pre and power amplifiers. From experience I have found that a wide and deep stereo sound stage requires extensive acoustic room treatment. adding two subs after that may improve the sound stage but extensive acoustic room treatment is far more effective and important.
I would agree that a sub-woofer is essential. I have very capable full range towers but at low volumes, the sub colors and gives a feel to the music that would be lacking without it. IMO a subwoofer is like a womans makeup. It should add color and depth. it shouldn't stand out so much that you say what the hell is that? make it go away. A nicely set up sub can subtly add your sense of touch to a listening experience even with a low volume.
I like the ability to have just 2 floor standing speakers that can produce enough bass without needed help from an extra subwoofer, my Paradigms go down to 38-40HZ, and i love the natural feel/sound of the bass i get even having tone control always at flat settings... but that is just me, and i have never gotten into the whole home theater thing since i started my audio journey with nicer gear 35 years ago...
My Zu DW6 Supremes will rattle the dishes in the dining room... No subs required. I'm using a vintage Sansui 4000 stereo receiver, the sound is very airy and tube like, and she goes low. I do have a pair of the SVS SB3000 subs in the room, for certain music recordings, I simply turn them off.
Doesn't hurt to hear it once more. Stupid rooms ! Here my two cents : I have recently got me a proper power amplifier for stereo, using the preout of the AVR. The speakers plays finaly music with life. Before it was already nice but now I can get the emotion and feels. Bass is deep enough for me where I sit to listen. Sitting position is figured out for imaging like Paul told. I now prefer the sound without the sub. Ain't no way right ? I guess that sub placement is at fault here again. But I have tried so much that it is getting boring. It is a hassle to make it work. So before adding a sub, maybe have a decent power amplifier that will get the most of your speakers. Make the stereo work and see how it goes from there. Maybe you could avoid the use of a sub with your taste and...room !
Everything our host said is correct, including one thing that he did not discuss. The ideal way to set up a sub-woofer (or even better, a pair of sub-woofers), is to include a high-pass filter on your amp(s) that feed your speakers. The high-pass filter allows (as the name implies) high frequencies to pass through (it actually allows everything over approximately 120 Hz to pass through -- but it can vary). Bass will also pass through, but much less than without the high-pass filter. Why do that? Two reasons: 1) If your sub-woofer(s) is producing accurate bass where you need that bass, then that is less bass for your main amps to deal with. Bass frequencies make your amps work the hardest. The less bass that your amps have to deal with, the better your mids and highs will sound. 2) The less bass your main speakers have to deal with, the less their cabinets will vibrate. That means that your midrange driver(s) and your tweeter(s) will shake less. That will result in a more focused image. The less bass your amps need to lift, the better your speakers will sound. The less your cabinets shake, the better your speakers will sound. Our host knows the above, and yet he left it out. Why? Most likely because his equipment does not have the above available in his catalog (he doesn't sell it). If he were to bring it up, then some folks would shop elsewhere. Although our host does provides lots of helpful information, he is (in my opinion) making these videos because they boost his sales. Our host is not always forthcoming with the best information, and it is not because he forgets or did not know. He knows all about what I wrote, above. So there is a bit of a trust factor here. Note that I am not knocking his equipment. You will not go wrong with any of his equipment. You will be a happy customer. But if you are ready to spend north of $50,000 on his equipment, you might have a bit of buyer's remorse, to learn that he did not provide you all of the options for you to make a truly informed purchasing decision. The owner of my local high-end store does the same thing. Yet, he sells stereos with sound quality to die for. But his sales come first. It is the nature of the beast.
You can buy an active three-way for less than $10000 a pair, from the top of the line speaker manufactures in the world. Seems like your friend is a snake-oil-seller (the usual hi-fi store).
@@rabarebra"You can buy an active three-way for less than $10000 a pair, from the top of the line speaker manufactures in the world. Seems like your friend is a snake-oil-seller (the usual hi-fi store)." How are active, three way speakers related to anything that I wrote in my comment? As it pertains to friends, what is happening with your friend, Ghislaine Maxwell?
@@NoEgg4u Read what you wrote again, and again, and again. Then you will understand. Why I pull three-way active in, is because you get less phase issues, plus the strains on the amps is not there invoking the mid amp and the treble amp. Now, read your comment again, and again.
@@rabarebra"Read what you wrote again, and again, and again." Okay... I did. "Why I pull three-way active in, is because you get less phase issues, plus the strains on the amps is not there invoking the mid amp and the treble amp. Now, read your comment again, and again." Your turn, because what you wrote has zero to do with my comment on sub-woofers. Perhaps if you tell me, again, to read my comment, again, then your assertion that I do not understand will come true.
If you can't hear or feel the low end coming out of your speakers then why build with that capability? You could save a lot of money that could be used towards good subwoofers. That is why a lot of audiophiles use stand mounted bookshelf speakers as their main speakers then augment the low end if they want.
You can hear and feel the low end from those speakers, the problem is that the amount you can hear it varies depending on where you’re sitting or standing. There is a null in the bass response at the ideal listening position in their listening room, and he fixes it by carefully positioning a subwoofer or two in the room.
I like your suggestion of using bookshelf speakers on stands + sub(s) and that is how my system is set up, but some people are in the enviable position where saving money is not a big concern.
@@piratefishrick Great bass is so room dependent that good bass can be had at the optimum position for sound staging and tonal balance but great bass might need a different location. I have tried both and prefer the the bookshelf/sub option for the most bang for the buck.
Question. How do you prevent the 26Hz from the sub not phase cancelling the 26Hz from the main speaker? Surely use of the sub would just add to the low frequency chaos?
You do either a crawl test or measurement to see where they help the most, then if there's any peaks in the response it's easy enough to remove (if there's an EQ or DSP).
@@PSA78 PS loudspeakers for $30K don't include DSP? What a rip. Legacy Audio includes DSP, better speakers, cost less, an educated consumer is a big advantage to getting stuck with under performing over priced nonsense
@@cengeb I just responded to another answer of yours, but DSP can't change the room and therefore it can't remove nulls. It's great when used right, but can make it sound worse as well.
@@PSA78 DSP can remove peaks - and that's how DSP should be used only (by subtraction)! Nothing can be added into something that is not existing. Nulls can be handled other ways - room treatment, placement, and/or buy/get a larger room.
I own Focal Scala Utopias. Recently, I had the opportunity to hear my system with a pair of REL Carbon Specials added. Despite how low the Scalas go, the difference in overall low bass quality is dramatic. 1 sub is great, a pair is even better. I will be buying a pair after having heard them.
I'd like a pair of Aspen's if only they came in a nice wood veneer. Black or White would stick out like a sore thumb in my room. Hopefully that's something PS Audio may offer in the future 🤔🤞
I have to agree, I do have painted speakers but it's a color that blends in with the wood interior. I'm guessing these unfortunately would be difficult (expensive) to add veneer to because of the curvature.
Wouldn't you also be able to solve the problem with room treatment? I just feel like there has to be a better way to deal with standing waves that doesn't cost as much as a used car.
No it isn’t because the system will certainly be lacking the presence of a hard mid bass kick drum. Been down that road already. The bookshelf plus sub or subs is an efficient way to provide what most are looking for but there is a reason why many folks go tower type speakers which are more full range. Best way I can explain is that despite advertising 22hz that’s at +-3db at 1 meter. The bass frequency is already rolling off at a certain point. Now you might be thinking just have the two subs crossed at a higher frequency like 125hz. It’s not that simple. Bass becomes directional and now subwoofer placement becomes more critical and timing is off from the bookshelf. Tower speakers are a better choice imo and then just need 1 sub in a corner crossed at 70hz or below. I prefer front right corner. If one can get decent and surprisingly solid bass from the two main full range speakers then adding/having the sub is just gravy.
that is what i was thinking, sure it requires more speakers and more things to set up, but do not think it adds more cost since you then buy purpose built speaker for the task, and not speaker trying to be good at everything.
Q: Why full range speakers need subwoofers? A: Because we want to sell subwoofers. Ive worked in numerous recording studios for 30 years and not once have i seen a sub in a control room. At home, in a well set up good quality system in a decent room a sub is pointless except for perhaps a theatre room where sound designers want the sound of a car door closing to sound like the last days of Hades
@@faludabutt8253 Yes. And market tradition. Main customers have been buying big 2 box speakers for last 30 years. So that is what manufacturers sell. And for most is works... until they hear it with a sub or 2 or 4.
Paying $30,000 for a pair of speakers only to have to pay more money to hear the low frequencies? Sounds like a design flaw really. Because someone should have tested the speakers in different rooms in the design process to either ensure that the low frequencies could be heard or to not squander money on putting low-frequency drivers that can't be heard in the cabinets and instead design a complimentary subwoofer system to achieve the desired frequency response.
Passive driver never been a good idea , if you want have problem with phase you are in the right place. This system have 4 drivers and 4 passives by cabinet for bass frequency?? ,and the result is 88db ?? i understand why you have problem with image and bass . For me a bad system
Makes sense. It seems to me the logical conclusion is to not waste space and money on big full range speakers. Why not optimize small full rangers for everything from 50Hz up for perfect imaging and low level detail. Then fill in the bass with an array of subs placed about the space dictated by the room. This could easily be a single really good full range driver on an a small open baffle on a stand or hanging from the ceiling and several really good subs. The cost of these big speakers is justified by the cabinet which is all about producing bass that you can't hear from your chair. It just does not make sense.
I actually approach this the opposite way. the only way I can explain it is to say a full range speaker projects sound at you in a way that includes your sense of touch. Yes a sub has a similar effect but only the bottom end in my opinion. The woofers in my floor standing speaker will go produce plenty of bass but that means zero at low levels. To me the sub at low levels adds that projection. When I push the volume the sub output gets reduced. I suppose it comes down to listening preferences and taste in sound. My whole life I've had a smaller speaker system while wanting what a full range speaker provided. Until I'm in a nursing home or dead, I'm not going back.
@@user-od9iz9cv1w Thanks, that's the beauty of this hobby, each of us are different and have different taste and approaches to meeting that goal. Too often in this format ideas turn into battles. My only goal in offering a differing opinion is to give any possible reader of our differing approaches a full range of thought. Happy listening to you !!!!!!!!!
only if you need it, only if you have a room that removes the bass from your speakers, only if the speakers do not reproduces fullrangs. but i see your point, but not all speakers no matter the cost are trying to do all things.
I agree. The more I learn about this the less sense it makes to me to use large full range speakers. And if you separate small cabinets from the bass unit you eliminate more issues. Coincident Reference Extreme is an interesting example. Their best performing example places small full range on a stand and the subs in massive boxes that can be placed anywhere.
Only two woofers in a room is like trying to light up the room with two standard flashlights. More of them will do a better job. It's possible that undesirable standing waves that may develop from one speaker pair, get broken up a bit from the crossfire of bass in the room from another subwoofer or two. It's often the room's size and shape that are at fault; not the speakers. In a more effective space, a single woofer from each stereo speaker would be enough. But that would be a rare room.
In my opinion, good tower full-range speakers should not need a sub for 2-channel listening. If one is doing home theater or has bookshelf speakers or has poorly built "full-range" towers, then adding a sub is almost mandatory. Also adding a sub requires a bit of work. A sub will do no good in the wrong place and/or uncorrected rooms. Adding a sub could introduce other issues if not done correctly. Also, one needs to pay attention to room size you want to put the sub in. Very large rooms require two subs often times to balance things sonically, also the size of the sub should be considered with the room size. I had fairly poor floor-standing full range speakers at one time and adding a sub helped a little indeed, but with the speakers I have now, also full-range towers, adding a sub would be a detriment as they are more than enough for two-channel listening. They go low enough to reveal visceral frequencies in music of which there are not many. That said, if I were running an HT environment, I would add a sub to them, which would take some load off, which is important, but also in HT it would better round out the sound.
You could spend a lifetime designing speakers to remove or fix every kind problem there is. It will never happen. There is no one perfect speaker on the market that solves every problem or acoustic issue. Rythmik FVX15 Direct Servo Subwoofer will do 12 hertz. Well below 26 hertz, if you need something that would do that.
Ive never been "into" audio or speakers or hi-fi. I just wanted a basic speaker upgrade for my PC and found this channel. Now, I just love watching this channel for a calm, relaxing experience. Paul is the Bob Ross of audio art.
Paul is definately the Bob Ross of audio content 😊
Who is Bod Ross? And what is it, that he is the "Bod Ross" of?
Happy Little Speakers
@@paulgoodwin1881
Bob Ross. The most relaxing videos you will ever watch. Got a life problem? Watch Bob Ross draw a picture. Life got you down? Watch Bob Ross.
Feel great and want to associate your feelings of awesomeness to a visual? Watch Bob Ross draw a picture.
Bob Ross is a legend.
Thanks, yes. I recall the Bob Ross now. Totally agree.
I used to look at loudspeakers and often think “no way am I paying that much for a speaker that only plays down to the mid forties”. Taking it onboard that a subwoofer is a room treatment tool as much as it is a low frequency attenuator has been the number one best bit of hifi advice I’ve ever gotten.
"Subwoofer as room treatment" was just a salesman's line and it clearly worked. A single subwoofer will nearly always do the opposite compared with the bass output of your stereo main speakers over the same bandwidth. The benefit of a single subwoofer is to extend bandwidth in the bass region, increase output in the bass region, and reduce distortion in the mains as you reduce its work load and the subwoofer itself should output lower distortion as it will have a larger driver and dedicated amplifier. Want room treatment, then you need multiple subs.
Seems like Paul has to answer this question every six months or so.
Well, he is practically a teacher for audio anyway 😂
@@flavioc5389 the blind leading the stupid .. what a world 😢
@@shipsahoy1793shhhhhh…
No one needs your lonely, grumpy-ass opinion.
Go listen to Steely Dan again and keep your sad-ass opinion to yourself.
thank you. I will be sending this video to everybody that ask me why i use a sub even if on specs it doesn't get as low as my floor standers. I do have some bass problem in my less than perfect listening room and the sub placed in a very specific way was the only way to solve that, and the sound is beautiful now !
Paul, I just wanted to say that yesterday I got “The Sound” from my system that I believe you (and others) are always describing. I have no words for it. I cannot believe it.
One way to quantify this new sound is to say that I have always been an advocate for using EQ, but with this sound there is no need for EQ (other than to adjust my sub volume for some recordings). Rich, 3D, width, depth are terms that could be used, but just scratch the surface of describing the sound.
As an alternative to expensive full range tower speakers, get a pair of stand mount or book shelf speakers with great imaging / soundstage/ resolving qualities (ie KEF R 3 or your preferred brand ). Add 2 subs and life is good!
Nice simple explanation.
A big problem for any floor standing speaker is "floor bounce" which has the bass reflecting off the floor and partially cancelling the bass coming out of the speakers. You can see it when running a REW sweep, there are always cancellation valleys in the bass that can't be EQ'd out. Adding boost to those spots in the EQ just make the room ring like a bell Having a sub can help greatly with this dilemma.
A strategy is to literally put the sub in your listening chair, move around the room and listen to where the bass sounds the best, then put the sub in that spot.
I’ve also experienced that a well set up subwoofer also widens the sound stage
So many people cant understand this... thanks Paul for explaining... again
Thnx Paul, best explanation, quick and short!!!
About 6 years ago Paul advised me privately (via a series of emails) about the benefits of subwoofers.
I was a traditionalist. Two-way audio purist.
I bought a sub on Paul’s strong recommendation. He did not recommend the sub specifically. Changed everything.
Subwoofers get a bad wrap because of home theater kids blasting subs. IMO
If you do it right, you’ll never notice the sub. The sound will be much larger and deeper.
Get a sub. Get two. Game changers.
You’re welcome Paul.
100% agree. Sub/s in a Hifi system are game changers.
Subs for "full range high efficiency" speakers is a MUST, due to the speakers inability to produce low end deep presence in music. Full range low efficiency speakers (like mine) do NOT need a sub at all. My Quads produce very deep presence (down towards 20hz) without even flinching. This is due to power requirements of the speaker. I drive my speakers (82db) at around 100 to 120 watts due to the bass driver being very needy with power to produce those low end frequencies. My V4's produce up to 170 watts if needed. Paul is absolutely correct with speakers that are not designed to produce deep low end frequency responses needing a sub (or 2). Very few high end speakers can do this. I am privileged to have such a speaker. So, it is not always needing a sub for your system if your speakers are capable of reproducing the very low end deep presence bass. Unfortunately, most speakers do need a sub or 2.
@@jayedgar2373 you clearly didnt see the video..
@@pulDaghe clearly didn't 😂
I clean did see the vid. Hence my response. Not all full range speakers need a sub.
Nicely explained Paul, thank you.
Thanks Paul. In the future can you go into why, as a result of the shortcomings of a listening room, high fidelity satellite speaker setups wouldn’t be an answer?
I was fortunate enough to sit in that room, the excellent tour guide played several tracks and let me play several more. I call it audio perfection. Until I listened to him answer this question I was not aware there was a sub in the room! Again perfection. If you can go take the tour, I felt like a little kid in a candy store.
And did you leave with any candy or did they just give you the boot?
Thanks for the demo and info 👏🏼👍🏼🏴
Hi 👋, about 4/5 years ago, I had a strange phenomenon, whilst listening to some music, I could not understand why I was hearing some strange sounds, Even to the point when I was talking on the phone to somebody, I could hear something in the background,
It was electric guitars and three acoustic guitars , I had placed on round the room and on the walls as pieces of art. I cannot play, but I still like the music instruments., at certain pitch and certain frequencies, the strings on the guitars would vibrate, the acoustic guitars were worse as they have a sound box, no more wall Art,
My grandparents had a summer house on an island, and there was a pretty busy shipping lane going right past it, as it was on the main route Stockholm (Sweden)-Turkku (Finland). As the big cruise ships would pass only a few hundred meters from the house, their massive engines would make the entire building vibrate: you would just experience this uneasy feeling, because most of the sound was subsonic, but if you were in the kitchen you would hear all the plates and wine glasses rattleling inside the cuboards.
One subwoofer is an improvement, and a pair even better. Aside from relieving some of the mechanical loading from the FR speakers in the lowest octave, subs can be positioned to take advantage of room gain, improve LF integrity, and alleviate SBIR issues simultaneously. Well-deployed subwoofers are an asset in any modern, high quality audio system. This wasn't the case back in the analog era, but the digital music (and digital home theater) revolution changed everything.
,asset for any hifi system? dude stop smoking crap
Haha! You make a great argument not to shell out the cash for the flagships. ;)
And the placement of the speakers is way off. No wonder they got bass problems.
I solved the room modes in my small room with 2 homemade subs and a DSP (in addition to passive treatment), now the mains speakers play (an untouched signal) and after I hear that my special sub invention, and it is something exceptionally rare and special, removes the used room mode frequencies from the sound so they do not reflect back and cause standing waves.
The mic you are using is great too
Great Video. Thanks. Can you Please advise how to set LFE+Main Subwoofer Mode ? Thanks
Great video
Good explanation! Of course all I can afford in that demo room is the stand the preamps are situated on!
US AudioMart is your friend. ;-)
That is absulutely true. For someone who loves to hear those subtones but be aware of condition that they will not affect rest. . I think is real pleasure because they seem to come from nowhere like from neighbours or outside . . Also in my case I am surprised with stereo going so down that when I silence one channel I can hear sub low definitely 3 times stronger than with two - because in specific location one cancels the second
. To my more surprise with other set of speakers which is able also deliver the same I can listen to both and all is exceptional simply because they are located so that do not cancel themself and it is just delight. Unfortunately I prefer sounding of first set .
Anyway for my small space I justify myself to accept deminshed version of subtones because bass is at perfect level and general impression is exactly without astonishing subbass too. . .
My experience with a small 2.1 setup (2-way front speakers). Once I have added a sub and set the crossover frequency at double of the lowest frequency reproducible by the front speakers, it had not only made a world of difference on the low end. Indeed, it had „opened“ the mid frequencies since the front speakers do not have to reproduce those lowest frequencies (lower than 80 Hz) which are anyway hard to acoustically localize.
Just added a subwoofer to my full range speakers, the result is wonderful. I can't hear the sub even when standing in front of it, and hear it filling in the low even while standing in front of the left speaker (the sub is on the far right). I rarely sit down while listening though. Downside is the sub carries much more into the kitchen than the speakers, so it can sound a bit droning there. keeping the door closed should help with that though
This kind of argues for having the FR-20 with only 2 woofers (smaller and less expensive) that you'll still hear maybe to 40-45 Hz from, and just use the sub for that really low bass anyway, placing the sub where it works best?
I would pick what your room dictate, as distance increases we need a lot more output from the speakers and that will sooner or later start to decrease sound quality. 🙂
@@PSA78 Comment was about bass in particular, not overall dB level and room size. Avg. person sits maybe 10 - 15 ft. from speakers and looks like FR-20s will easily accommodate that with 90 dB+.
@@stevefisher8323 Yes, just mentioning why larger speakers are preferred sometimes. 🙂
As per usual another mystery is is solved. Thanks Paul.
A subwoofer is the best thing I ever added to my hifi system. Only trouble is, it means the next speaker upgrade is gonna be MORE expensive :D
The subwoofer crawl was fun :)
i understand the problem of cancellation and building up of these low sound because of the room and placement and of course all the speakers. But why build speakers in such way that go so low if they are source of a problem you solve with another speaker, the subwoofer which placement solves the problem. Why not let out the part in the speakers that causes cancellation and standing waves and let that part of the frequences be played solely by the subwoofer? It is like a television with boxes, why build them, pay them if one plays the correct and better sound through a hifi system.
Best explanation ever.
@@halzucati ok I didn’t know they sold subwoofers. Idiot!
Thank U & Seasons greetings !
Paul so then why do you build speakers with drivers that go down to subwoofer range when as you say "you do not hear it unless you have a subwoofer". Would it not be easier to design speakers that are great at imaging w/o going real low, and then have a sub woofer...
In a previous video Paul said that the FR30's allow you to detach the lower bass unit from the upper mid and treble unit. This would allow you to position the mid/treble units for best sound stage and the bass units for best bass quality. That being the case why would you need a sub woofer?
Good point. I don't know for sure, but think detaching is only for transport, not in use. Besides that, the treble unit would be to low without being mounted higher up for proper displacement. The bass and treble unit are designed together to work optimal as is. Also the bass unit is used for a wider frequency range than a subwoofer unit, which causes the problems. A subwoofer unit is also more easy to place exactly where it would be best, because no direct line of sight is needed (for these low frequencies).
Just my thoughts.
Exactly. Detaching the two is only for transport. You wouldn't want to do that for playback.
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio The IRS V has the bass cabinets separate to the mid/treble cabinets so why can't this also work with the FR30's.
Hi 👋 Paul , I have been listening to your territorial advice on listening to music and set ups, For quite a few years, The full range speakers that you are demonstrating, look very impressive, and obviously cost a serious amount of money, But I haven’t to put a subwoofer in a room to compensate the lack of base response, Surely that is showing that the speakers are inefficient, And I could never get my head around why the driver units are mounted on the side, especially facing each other, which I would’ve thought cancelled out the base response, what happen any difference if you mounted the cabinets the other way round, so the drivers were facing the wall, then put sound effect and panels on the wall, or in that location angle facing into the room,
Having a subwoofer located behind you, or in that region , I would’ve thought it would defeated the object of listening to music, that all intense purposes you are listening in front of you, as you would do if you was in a stadium or concert,
I listen to my music through a very large power of transmission line, loudspeaker cabinets , that I built myself around 40 years ago,
I am in my 70s , and I enjoy listening to a very wide range of music, From classical to heavy metal, The blues, And even Viking Nordic music,
Luckily, I live in the region of the French countryside , My listening room is approximately 5 m x 7 m, And I am thinking of converting my attic at some point, money permitting, which is approximately 7 m x 12 m, the only problem this is got a vaulted ceiling, V , With very large oak beams, I know nothing about hi-fi equipment, Apart from it seems people spend a serious amount of money on it, seeking perfection,
Great territorial , look forward to watching and listening to you next time, Merry Christmas and a happy New Year,
Phil from the moulin France
The drivers are in the front of the speaker. The sides are passive radiators that allow the air to escape.
Thank you for sharing info, I don’t know how these actually.
I run 1980 A/D/S L810's and they provide more bass than I'll ever need . I tried using a sub and it just didn't sound right as it sounded as if a 3rd speaker was in the room
@@manchesterexplorer8519 not set up correctly
@@scottyo64Hi thank you for sharing your New Hampshire, old English era, architecture, I have worked on property similar to these back in the UK, I/was a specialist joiner cabinet maker,
Best subwoofer reasoning ever!
"your stupid room", ya gutta love that quote
Paul are you bringing these speakers to Florida audio show in Tampa this spring ?
Paul,im using the PS Audio m1200 amps.If I want to use a sub woofer,do i need a SW for each channel?
Hey Paul, if this SUB is case, why did you put both subs into both towers of FR30? wouldn't it be best to have FR30 Sub unit removable to other locations so one does not need to buy additional SUBs???
'Ole Audiopile to Paul: This is rougn for both the experienced & the novice alike. I can't help but wonder why tweeters, midrange & woofers are so widely accepted & folks can't wrap their heads around the need for a sub-driver specifically built to task, the extreme bottom end. We simply ignored it before as unattainable. I was introduced to subs via something rather stupid, a DAK catalog about the circa 1982/83 when I purchased what I considered a no-brainer: a Cerwin Vega 12" passive sub. Over 40 years & umteen generations of sub gear later, I hardly need reminded but thanx.
I love my L-300’s. The bass finds me and blows my hair around wherever I am. Down the hall and in other rooms. I can’t imagine ever needing a sub but who knows?
So true !
There's no system that does not benefit a lot to a little by the addition of a quality sub or two correctly implemented. True story.
When do the ps audio subs come out?
26 Hz is an almost-subwoofer. Needs to go sub-20 to be worthwhile.
My subwoofer is tuned to about 17Hz and I love it.
Save money: Carpets, bookshelfs (with books) Use lamps as diffusers. There are a lot of things you can do to improve the acustics of your room😮
Another factor is the size of the woofers in a speaker. A lot of small woofers dont move the same ammount of air as a big woofer.🤔
Then why have the speaker go down to that frequency if not heard.., when using a sub?
good question, and to answer all the ways i could think of is too long.
something everyone should take time to ponder for sure :)
Here’s an audiophile blessing: May you have a room where you can place your speakers and subwoofers where they sound best.
And don't we love it when we get it right. Twin subwoofers of similar output for stereo.
JLA cr-1 active crossover
2--Rel Carbon Specials 😊
Shunyata Python xlr's 2.5m
Magnepan 20.7s, Coda Ts V3
Wonder if audiophile subs can or are Bandpass designs?
Look at Genelec for that
What you just said is an argument for Arnie's quest for a midrange driver that could go down to 80Hz so he could keep a 3 way low order CO design with servo subs to 15Hz , midrange 80-4K and tweeter 4k to 40K. . The FR30 with subs is a 4 way system and the Passive Radiator overhanging bottom end now has to blend with the sub. Does it have a low end adjustment for doing that? Maybe a version of the FR30 without the PRs and a sealed box with solid response to response down to 40Hz designed to go with servo subs. I have lots of experience with the Genesis 1 with the 12 channel servo metal cone woofers and placement of the woofer towers is always a compromise and is best optimized for the type of music. If you want to feel the 18Hz in EDM then you won't get that seamless mid bass because the mid ribbon cannot establish a lot of energy at 120Hz. Nudell tried with the LEMIM on The IRS Beta's ( I still have) but they run into the problem of the 5 way crossover. The Betas used Carbon Fiber low mass servo woofers so better match the speed of the LEMIMs and I prefer that match to the heavy cone subs trying to match the ribbon mids from the Genesis ones. Read the TAS review of the Betas where HP found the mid bass integration was superior to that of the IRS.
They can't answer you this, because FR30 is snake oil.
I've just noticed something really similar recently. I have Focal Aria 948 speakers, and I did not really like the sound. It felt thin and a bit tiring to listen to. A couple of days ago I've realized that it sounds is a lot more balanced 3 meters behind the couch, from where I'm normally listening to. I can't really move a chair there, because there is the end of the dining table, but at least I know it's not the speaker's fault, but the room's.
stereo subs ?
The 2.1 set up is my favorite ...seems to me adding a sub to a 'stereo' system makes it seem far more powerful at any level
Why do you need the low end on the "fronts" then?
every bass source can be valuable. It is all about positioning and accoustic properities of a room.
Good question, in fact the best would be front speakers highpassed at 80 Hz and then at least two properly placed and setup subs.
oh my gush the white tower speaker show in your video look amazing , can you please let me the model name , thanks, by the way I have 4 subwoofer place in every corner of my room 😃and as you said , the low frequency feel that coming from my main speakers
There's more. If you high-pass filter the main speakers, they can play louder and cleaner without requiring as much amp power.
the room does a lot of weird stuff to bass, subs play a limited range and can be placed in more locations with more adjustments options than speakers. invaluable tool.
Anyone can listen for themselves, search for online tone generator, then do a sweep in the bass, 20hz to 100hz. now you know how frequencies are played back in your room.
now come back and tell us how full range just a pair of passive speakers are.
Cảm ơn bạn!
then why have 8 woofers and 8 passive radiators if you hear the sub instead
Go pairs, SVS SB3000's here... I prefer a sealed sub for music, or a down firing passive radiator sub like the REL models. Your ears will thank you.
Then why not use the best possible two-way stand mount you can afford with the sub(s)? Seems silly to spend big bucks on a full range unless it just so happens your listening and seating positions are harmonious with respect to bass….which is unlikely as Paul attests to. Maybe PS Audio should have focused on a killer stand mount.
Move everything outside - no standing waves.
Hi Paul, is there any sense in having 2 subwoofers?
Absolutely there is. You can get the majority of benefits with one, but two just sweetens the pie.
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio Thanks for the reply!
Hi Paul belated seasonal greetings , another great informative video, it’s placement and compromise in the room you have , I have a sub and found a place for it and can hear the lower bass notes , and if couse where you put your speakers also has to be fine tuned as my listening room is also the front lounge also . Regards mark
Why have full range speakers going that low if you can’t hear them?
As always, Paul nailed it.
I, too, have always been a very vocal proponent of subwoofers - specifically active stereophonic subwoofers. Not only can subwoofers be placed independently from the speakers for optimal room response but the bass level can be conveniently adjusted on-the-fly to suit the music or the mood. The "Salt and Pepper to taste" philosophy.
I've used active stereophonic subs in my main system with a variety of different speakers for over 12 years and I've never regretted it. Some well-powered, well-placed subs will completely transform your listening experience and will add a missing dimension.
I see from comments on this subject that people believe that adding a couple of subs will prevent all sound from being reflected off the walls and remove all standing waves. I suspect they are wrong.
A pair of subs adds to the soundstage, the room is another beast to conquer.
@@michaelwright1602 I have been an audio enthusiast for over 50 Years. I design and build my own pre and power amplifiers. From experience I have found that a wide and deep stereo sound stage requires extensive acoustic room treatment. adding two subs after that may improve the sound stage but extensive acoustic room treatment is far more effective and important.
Legacy Focus go down to 16Hz, with real bass. The Aspen loudspeakers are too small of a woofer, it's a goof at the priced charged, made where?
I would agree that a sub-woofer is essential. I have very capable full range towers but at low volumes, the sub colors and gives a feel to the music that would be lacking without it. IMO a subwoofer is like a womans makeup. It should add color and depth. it shouldn't stand out so much that you say what the hell is that? make it go away. A nicely set up sub can subtly add your sense of touch to a listening experience even with a low volume.
That’s right, it shouldn’t stand out, then it’s setup correctly. Subs are there to augment and help polish the sound.
I like the ability to have just 2 floor standing speakers that can produce enough bass without needed help from an extra subwoofer, my Paradigms go down to 38-40HZ, and i love the natural feel/sound of the bass i get even having tone control always at flat settings... but that is just me, and i have never gotten into the whole home theater thing since i started my audio journey with nicer gear 35 years ago...
My Zu DW6 Supremes will rattle the dishes in the dining room... No subs required. I'm using a vintage Sansui 4000 stereo receiver, the sound is very airy and tube like, and she goes low. I do have a pair of the SVS SB3000 subs in the room, for certain music recordings, I simply turn them off.
Doesn't hurt to hear it once more. Stupid rooms !
Here my two cents :
I have recently got me a proper power amplifier for stereo, using the preout of the AVR. The speakers plays finaly music with life. Before it was already nice but now I can get the emotion and feels.
Bass is deep enough for me where I sit to listen. Sitting position is figured out for imaging like Paul told. I now prefer the sound without the sub. Ain't no way right ?
I guess that sub placement is at fault here again. But I have tried so much that it is getting boring. It is a hassle to make it work.
So before adding a sub, maybe have a decent power amplifier that will get the most of your speakers. Make the stereo work and see how it goes from there. Maybe you could avoid the use of a sub with your taste and...room !
I think the why recorders use "bass traps" in corners.
Everything our host said is correct, including one thing that he did not discuss.
The ideal way to set up a sub-woofer (or even better, a pair of sub-woofers), is to include a high-pass filter on your amp(s) that feed your speakers.
The high-pass filter allows (as the name implies) high frequencies to pass through (it actually allows everything over approximately 120 Hz to pass through -- but it can vary). Bass will also pass through, but much less than without the high-pass filter.
Why do that?
Two reasons:
1) If your sub-woofer(s) is producing accurate bass where you need that bass, then that is less bass for your main amps to deal with.
Bass frequencies make your amps work the hardest. The less bass that your amps have to deal with, the better your mids and highs will sound.
2) The less bass your main speakers have to deal with, the less their cabinets will vibrate. That means that your midrange driver(s) and your tweeter(s) will shake less. That will result in a more focused image.
The less bass your amps need to lift, the better your speakers will sound.
The less your cabinets shake, the better your speakers will sound.
Our host knows the above, and yet he left it out. Why?
Most likely because his equipment does not have the above available in his catalog (he doesn't sell it). If he were to bring it up, then some folks would shop elsewhere.
Although our host does provides lots of helpful information, he is (in my opinion) making these videos because they boost his sales.
Our host is not always forthcoming with the best information, and it is not because he forgets or did not know. He knows all about what I wrote, above. So there is a bit of a trust factor here.
Note that I am not knocking his equipment. You will not go wrong with any of his equipment. You will be a happy customer. But if you are ready to spend north of $50,000 on his equipment, you might have a bit of buyer's remorse, to learn that he did not provide you all of the options for you to make a truly informed purchasing decision.
The owner of my local high-end store does the same thing. Yet, he sells stereos with sound quality to die for. But his sales come first. It is the nature of the beast.
You can buy an active three-way for less than $10000 a pair, from the top of the line speaker manufactures in the world. Seems like your friend is a snake-oil-seller (the usual hi-fi store).
@@rabarebra"You can buy an active three-way for less than $10000 a pair, from the top of the line speaker manufactures in the world. Seems like your friend is a snake-oil-seller (the usual hi-fi store)."
How are active, three way speakers related to anything that I wrote in my comment?
As it pertains to friends, what is happening with your friend, Ghislaine Maxwell?
@@NoEgg4u Read what you wrote again, and again, and again. Then you will understand. Why I pull three-way active in, is because you get less phase issues, plus the strains on the amps is not there invoking the mid amp and the treble amp. Now, read your comment again, and again.
@@rabarebra"Read what you wrote again, and again, and again."
Okay... I did.
"Why I pull three-way active in, is because you get less phase issues, plus the strains on the amps is not there invoking the mid amp and the treble amp. Now, read your comment again, and again."
Your turn, because what you wrote has zero to do with my comment on sub-woofers.
Perhaps if you tell me, again, to read my comment, again, then your assertion that I do not understand will come true.
@@NoEgg4u I have no time for this, egghead.
Where's the sub at in the room?
On the back wall.
If you can't hear or feel the low end coming out of your speakers then why build with that capability? You could save a lot of money that could be used towards good subwoofers. That is why a lot of audiophiles use stand mounted bookshelf speakers as their main speakers then augment the low end if they want.
You can hear and feel the low end from those speakers, the problem is that the amount you can hear it varies depending on where you’re sitting or standing. There is a null in the bass response at the ideal listening position in their listening room, and he fixes it by carefully positioning a subwoofer or two in the room.
I like your suggestion of using bookshelf speakers on stands + sub(s) and that is how my system is set up, but some people are in the enviable position where saving money is not a big concern.
@@piratefishrick Great bass is so room dependent that good bass can be had at the optimum position for sound staging and tonal balance but great bass might need a different location. I have tried both and prefer the the bookshelf/sub option for the most bang for the buck.
Question. How do you prevent the 26Hz from the sub not phase cancelling the 26Hz from the main speaker? Surely use of the sub would just add to the low frequency chaos?
You do either a crawl test or measurement to see where they help the most, then if there's any peaks in the response it's easy enough to remove (if there's an EQ or DSP).
@@PSA78 PS loudspeakers for $30K don't include DSP? What a rip. Legacy Audio includes DSP, better speakers, cost less, an educated consumer is a big advantage to getting stuck with under performing over priced nonsense
@@cengeb I just responded to another answer of yours, but DSP can't change the room and therefore it can't remove nulls.
It's great when used right, but can make it sound worse as well.
My main go down to 20 hz and I have two subs and love it !!
@@PSA78 DSP can remove peaks - and that's how DSP should be used only (by subtraction)! Nothing can be added into something that is not existing. Nulls can be handled other ways - room treatment, placement, and/or buy/get a larger room.
I own Focal Scala Utopias. Recently, I had the opportunity to hear my system with a pair of REL Carbon Specials added. Despite how low the Scalas go, the difference in overall low bass quality is dramatic. 1 sub is great, a pair is even better. I will be buying a pair after having heard them.
I'd like a pair of Aspen's if only they came in a nice wood veneer. Black or White would stick out like a sore thumb in my room. Hopefully that's something PS Audio may offer in the future 🤔🤞
I have to agree, I do have painted speakers but it's a color that blends in with the wood interior.
I'm guessing these unfortunately would be difficult (expensive) to add veneer to because of the curvature.
Wouldn't you also be able to solve the problem with room treatment? I just feel like there has to be a better way to deal with standing waves that doesn't cost as much as a used car.
Yes and no. Treating the room would help, but unless you have no corners, it won't help enough. Just get two decent subs, and you'll be on your way
Any treatment that would work would be large enough to change the physical size of the room, so back to square one (minus a wife).
Trust me you'll love the addition of a sub woofer, better two 😅 And it doesn't need to shake the walls
So if you cant hear low bass from the speaker why waste so much money in big speakers? Doenst make sense.... Bookshelf + 2 subs is the way then
No it isn’t because the system will certainly be lacking the presence of a hard mid bass kick drum.
Been down that road already. The bookshelf plus sub or subs is an efficient way to provide what most are looking for but there is a reason why many folks go tower type speakers which are more full range.
Best way I can explain is that despite advertising 22hz that’s at +-3db at 1 meter. The bass frequency is already rolling off at a certain point.
Now you might be thinking just have the two subs crossed at a higher frequency like 125hz. It’s not that simple. Bass becomes directional and now subwoofer placement becomes more critical and timing is off from the bookshelf.
Tower speakers are a better choice imo and then just need 1 sub in a corner crossed at 70hz or below. I prefer front right corner.
If one can get decent and surprisingly solid bass from the two main full range speakers then adding/having the sub is just gravy.
that is what i was thinking, sure it requires more speakers and more things to set up, but do not think it adds more cost since you then buy purpose built speaker for the task, and not speaker trying to be good at everything.
@@f430ferrari5 A 3-way system has its own amp for the mids. Same with bass and treble.
You'd be even better off adding 3 or 4 subs throughout your room, which is the best way to deal with standing waves.
why not 5 or 6 just to be on the safe side? 😂
LOL!!!@@rabarebra
Or you could cross over the stereo speakers so they dont have to reproduce the same frequencies as the subs. And maybe even try stereo subwoofers.
Q: Why full range speakers need subwoofers?
A: Because we want to sell subwoofers.
Ive worked in numerous recording studios for 30 years and not once have i seen a sub in a control room. At home, in a well set up good quality system in a decent room a sub is pointless except for perhaps a theatre room where sound designers want the sound of a car door closing to sound like the last days of Hades
My late 1960' Sansui speakers don't need a sub! Got to love vintage :D
Lol. Good one Beavis. Sansui found a way to bypass physics!!!
Yes they do... But you don't know it... yet...
LOL!!!! @@alejandrorigonatto694
The Subwoofer will take some of the hard work out of your speakers when going low. Making your speakers sound better.
So where to you shut the LF off/or putting it a few dB's down on the FR30's?
Why bother making the main speakers go low if you need subwoofers at the end
For people who don’t wanna get into subs
@@faludabutt8253 Yes. And market tradition. Main customers have been buying big 2 box speakers for last 30 years. So that is what manufacturers sell. And for most is works... until they hear it with a sub or 2 or 4.
Paying $30,000 for a pair of speakers only to have to pay more money to hear the low frequencies?
Sounds like a design flaw really.
Because someone should have tested the speakers in different rooms in the design process to either ensure that the low frequencies could be heard or to not squander money on putting low-frequency drivers that can't be heard in the cabinets and instead design a complimentary subwoofer system to achieve the desired frequency response.
passive speakers usually behaves like this
they dont need ! its all about power amp and speakers themself!
Passive driver never been a good idea , if you want have problem with phase you are in the right place. This system have 4 drivers and 4 passives by cabinet for bass frequency?? ,and the result is 88db ?? i understand why you have problem with image and bass . For me a bad system
Hahahahaha!
Makes sense.
It seems to me the logical conclusion is to not waste space and money on big full range speakers. Why not optimize small full rangers for everything from 50Hz up for perfect imaging and low level detail. Then fill in the bass with an array of subs placed about the space dictated by the room. This could easily be a single really good full range driver on an a small open baffle on a stand or hanging from the ceiling and several really good subs. The cost of these big speakers is justified by the cabinet which is all about producing bass that you can't hear from your chair. It just does not make sense.
I actually approach this the opposite way. the only way I can explain it is to say a full range speaker projects sound at you in a way that includes your sense of touch. Yes a sub has a similar effect but only the bottom end in my opinion. The woofers in my floor standing speaker will go produce plenty of bass but that means zero at low levels. To me the sub at low levels adds that projection. When I push the volume the sub output gets reduced. I suppose it comes down to listening preferences and taste in sound. My whole life I've had a smaller speaker system while wanting what a full range speaker provided. Until I'm in a nursing home or dead, I'm not going back.
@@bobr9605 Good approach. Use what works for you and don't worry about other options.
@@user-od9iz9cv1w Thanks, that's the beauty of this hobby, each of us are different and have different taste and approaches to meeting that goal. Too often in this format ideas turn into battles. My only goal in offering a differing opinion is to give any possible reader of our differing approaches a full range of thought. Happy listening to you !!!!!!!!!
… need subwoofers and tweeters. 😉😁
Why is a full range speaker called a full range speaker if it needs a sub?
room physics is a nightmare
So I will buy high end speakers and mono blocks for tens of thousands of dollars only to end up with, Oh I need a subwoofer`?
only if you need it, only if you have a room that removes the bass from your speakers, only if the speakers do not reproduces fullrangs.
but i see your point, but not all speakers no matter the cost are trying to do all things.
I agree. The more I learn about this the less sense it makes to me to use large full range speakers. And if you separate small cabinets from the bass unit you eliminate more issues. Coincident Reference Extreme is an interesting example. Their best performing example places small full range on a stand and the subs in massive boxes that can be placed anywhere.
Yes
..or you could blame the room. 😉
Only two woofers in a room is like trying to light up the room with two standard flashlights. More of them will do a better job. It's possible that undesirable standing waves that may develop from one speaker pair, get broken up a bit from the crossfire of bass in the room from another subwoofer or two. It's often the room's size and shape that are at fault; not the speakers. In a more effective space, a single woofer from each stereo speaker would be enough. But that would be a rare room.
This video is sponsored by our stupid Euclidian universe. :D
In my opinion, good tower full-range speakers should not need a sub for 2-channel listening. If one is doing home theater or has bookshelf speakers or has poorly built "full-range" towers, then adding a sub is almost mandatory.
Also adding a sub requires a bit of work. A sub will do no good in the wrong place and/or uncorrected rooms. Adding a sub could introduce other issues if not done correctly. Also, one needs to pay attention to room size you want to put the sub in. Very large rooms require two subs often times to balance things sonically, also the size of the sub should be considered with the room size.
I had fairly poor floor-standing full range speakers at one time and adding a sub helped a little indeed, but with the speakers I have now, also full-range towers, adding a sub would be a detriment as they are more than enough for two-channel listening. They go low enough to reveal visceral frequencies in music of which there are not many. That said, if I were running an HT environment, I would add a sub to them, which would take some load off, which is important, but also in HT it would better round out the sound.
You will never have good bass because of your stupid opinion. Good luck though.
You could spend a lifetime designing speakers to remove or fix every kind problem there is. It will never happen. There is no one perfect speaker on the market that solves every problem or acoustic issue. Rythmik FVX15 Direct Servo Subwoofer will do 12 hertz. Well below 26 hertz, if you need something that would do that.