Some people have home theater and listening audio double duty systems on a budget. That's typically where you see separate sub and satellite type speakers. Now for theater only having separate sub you mainly are using for heart pounding bass to feel the movie. With easy listening system you are using for coherency and oneness of the sound. Back in the day I had a big home theater set up. Had the M & K dual 12 inch subs in push pull configuration behind my bean bag when I was a teenager. They were absolute monster I felt in my soul. They were competing with Velodyne back then and were not cheap in price but excellent quality.
This all depends on where the crossover from the mid to upper bass is. You can use a smaller sub (like an 8") that can mate very well to say a 5" midrange, if the mid is able to be crossed at around 150Hz. A larger say 12" sub can also be added to the mix with a low pass cut-off at say 40-50Hz so the very low bass is reinforced. Here the selection of the full range / midrange driver becomes the most important. Avoiding multiple woofers also can reduce cost and certainly the need for large cabinets with all that bracing.
Not to mention MONO sub sound vs STEREO sub sound... and, of course, the in-line array of all the speakers delivering sound totally in phase to your ears.
Without walls line array of woofers would get in phase. Unfortunately, room acoustics don't work that way. I get more phase coherence with two subs or by cutting in half the tower speakers.
@@clickbeetle2720 It doesn't matter if low frequencies have been recorded in stereo or mono. One sub creates an asymmetry in pressures that I can feel and measure even if I can't localize it. That's how room acoustics mess with sound.
@@clickbeetle2720 . Tracks with bass? (most consider these as sub-bass, but it's not) Listen to these bands. Lettuce, The Budos Band, Ikebe Shakedown, Funky Destination, Electro Delux, Polyrhythmics, Cissy Street, Cory Wong, Galactic, Papa Grows Funk, Down to the Bone, Black Mantra.............................. That should get you STARTED! Acid Jazz, Funk & Brass 🔈🔉🔊
@@clickbeetle2720 . Well these bands don't seem to compress the low end of human powered instruments whether they be drums, strings or a Tuba in their recording. These are mostly physically large multi-instrument bands with NO vocalists. It's the instruments who are stars. There are no synthesized instruments here. Not only is the bass guitar sounstaged traditionally panned left and mid-field but the texture of thumb to E note string can be distinguished. Try a few songs quick & if it's good than it won't be work. It'll be pleasure. One sub or two? If someone is hearing music out of one sub or any amount of subs then it should be acknowledged a stereo image & soundstage exists and should be treated as such by incorporating two subs in the same manner as the pair of main stereo loudspeakers. If your listening to synthetic bass beats then none of it matters anyway. There is no tone or texture to be heard at all. Acid Jazz, Funk & Brass 🔈🔉🔊
I find an 8" sub/s mates nice with same/and or smaller drivers, especially dual subs and placed behind the speakers (2-way) and gives me full range. I'm not in the weird 'scatter subs here, there or everywhere' world, but whatever.
That's what I found to work best in my room too. I've always wondered about the benefits of coupling the sub to the tower in terms of distance, i.e., I noticed that my soundstage was deeper and fuller with the speakers closer to the subs, which had been positioned for best bass presentation (consistent volume across the bass frequencies--actually, Chris B's acoustic bass from PS Audio's Hi-Fi book!). When I had pulled the speakers a bit farther out from the front wall and farther away from the subs, I didn't get a better overall sound; it was thinner in the middle, with a flatter soundstage. When I moved them closer to the subs, but still 2.5' off the front wall, the system bloomed. So, I've always wondered if coupling those 8" subs to the tower with dual 5.25" woofers was why.
My 8 inch sub is off the floor and to the side (not behind). I have the "close your eyes" and "get lost" audio system that I almost can't believe how wonderfully immersive and enjoyable it is. No one knows there is a sub in the room. Maybe I am fortunate to have stumbled upon my system's components. TH-cam has been a tremendous source of expert advice.
Paul, Hand in France's question was not fully addressed. The lower part of your FR30 speakers are akin to subs, as they go down to very low octaves. What Hand was asking was why do you not have your FR30 speakers split into separate cabinets. As you described, your FR30's woofer section integrates seamlessly with the midrange driver section. As such, if your FR30 speakers were in two sections, then their integration would be ideal, and you could place the bass cabinet separatly, to achieve the best bass response at the listener's seated position.
Hi. I think the problem there is that the crossover frequency from the woofers to the mid drivers is too high for that. Although I've not looked I reckon it'll be somewhere between 500 -800hz meaning that the woofers will be effectively playing some of the vocal range and their locations will be very easy to identify.
My thought precisely. Form follows function. The FR30 (and all the others) are built to sort of fit into a living room. In a dedicated sound room I'd have a small open baffle handle 100 to 30kHz and the best bass boxes you can build placed around the room where bass is best. Likely have the bass boxes driven by class D and the fullish range by a really good tube amp.
@@vosenfaber8631 "The Idea is that going sub low with your main speakers is pointless." That depends on your room. My room is too small to include a sub-woofer. I have nowhere to place it. So I depend on my main speakers for 100% of the bass. If my room was larger, then subs would be ideal.
I went from exclusively bookshelves with stereo sub's (wired directly from my amp's terminals) to Large presentation AR Classic 30's. I am no longer a bookshelf with sub's guy. All of that 30-20k emanating from the same location, nothing like it. That's not to say I don't run a pair of highly resolving subs with them just the same. I do, to augment the bottom end to the point I can feel the strums of a bass guitar. No, the bass is not overpowering with the sub's. Hits like a sledgehammer...with definition and delicacy when required. Gr Research just designed new crossovers for my AR's. So good, I have no words yet. That one augmenting sub Paul talks about, usually at the back of the room making us feel the bass down to 20Hz in style is why some are confused.
Hi Paul, always love to listen to your answers to questions and enjoy reading your book as well. Question: Who makes the diffusers you have there? I think someone asked this question previously, but not aware of a specific answer. Thank you.
Ah yes, but the point source folk would challenge you about all of those different point sources you have in the displayed speakers. It is also the argument behind the Sibelius speakers. A small woofer handling bass and mid-range (and an attempt for it to handle treble as well). The Sibelius definitely covers the point- source claim for a more natural integration of sound. The first speaker pair I made in about 1960 used a single wide-range 10" Richard Allen speaker. i loved it but after a while I felt that it needed quite a boost of the tone control to bring out the treble. Trouble was the boosted treble from the whizzer cone of the 10" was quite harsh. Solution? I added a small cone tweeter and that gave me nicer treble. Since then I always included a specialist tweeter in any speakers I made. A pity about the point source going out the window!
full range speakers is a noble goal, as long as you do not cut to many corner to get there. and more powerful bass from a speaker makes for easier subwoofer integration in general if you do not have any dsp. even port or passive radiators can help so it matched the delay in the subwoofers at those frequencies, not optimal but it can work for that use.
Depends on how loud you want to be..because.the 6 inch cant be played as low as it needs to and fill the gap. If you want to get loud you need more 6s. Or 8s..to equal the output of large subs..personally I have 4 15s and 12 8s in my front of the room..haha .
THE issue is room modes. One needs to understand room modes and learn about the room mode situation in their own listening room and then figure a way to neutralize the room modes. As long as you don't do that you will be forever mystified as to why you can't get good sound.
There's a bit more to it than simply having a larger driver,or drivers to "mate" with a subwoofer. While a larger driver may be more able to shift air,the compliance of the suspension,system tuning and room all play their part in how the bass sounds. Adding a sub or two can be effective if positioned in such a way as to deal with nulls at the listening position. This is somewhat relying on the ability to place the subwoofer(s) in a position that allows that compensation to take place. This may not always be practical if there's furniture located in the "hotspot" areas,so a "second best" location may have to do as a compromise. Some subwoofers on the market lack the flexibility and facilities to compensate for less than optimal positioning and the slope of their filters,which has an effect on their ability to blend with the main speakers is rarely,if ever mentioned. Additionally, if the end user isn't familiar enough with how their main speakers integrate with the listening room he,or she will be quite unable to judge how to blend the subs with the main speakers properly. Below around 200hz the room is the dominant factor for the low end and if there's not sufficient ability to see how the speakers are affected by the room and placement (including the subwoofer(s),then it's more of a guessing game.Not that enjoyable results can't be attained,but if one is looking for accuracy and "properness" in the bass they'll need to be able to measure the effects and compensate with DSP or EQ.
Paul is 100% correct. A speaker never plays flat and needs to be adjusted with EQ. or passive crossover. Bass must be adjusted in relation to the midrange to play correctly. If you have a small midrange and a large separate bass box, they don't always play well together. The bass speaker must also play relatively bright to meet the midrange. Bass will also play slower than the midrange. Many bass boxes only have a dividing filter that only goes from one frequency to deeper, which means a lot of color in the bass sound area. It's not as easy as just taking a bookshelf speaker and a large bass box and the sound will be good
Today this doesn't have to be a big problem as it was, with room correction software, or a miniDSP that has a function as an EQ. This was a bigger problem before. Home cinema today is based on "syncing" the sound and correcting the frequensis by help of room correction like Dirac, ARC, RoomPerfect or Audyssey. But still, as you mentioned, you can not just buy a pair of bookshelf speakers and a subwoofer and think you will have great sound. Placement of speakers is the essential part, but also a bit of room treatment. Room correction can not perform miracles, but they can improve sound.
thats why i always say that a 8 inch or 10 inch sub is better for bookshelf speakers. (generally with 5 or 6 inch woofers) but most sub fans insist on 15 inch..18 inch... not the best match. a sub must be a complement for what your bookshelves lack... not a earthquake in your house. you should not note the sub but say oooh those little speakers have good bass... thats the goal not rattling the neighbourhood
depends on if you have dsp, with passive speakers and active subwoofer as limitations then maybe our statement works. you really have to define your terms to make sense and comment useful information. not an easy thing to to in text on a TH-cam comment section.
I have a single REL T-5X matched to a pair of McIntosh XR50 speakers that complement each other very well as the speakers are almost flat to 40htz, and I have the sub set at about 60htz. They are powered b6 a McIntosh MA-252, and the soundstage and details are amazing.
Have to disagree on this one for the scenario of a small room. There, a standmount speaker with subwoofer place in the similar plane (to reduce phase effects), will almost certainly sound better than a floorstander. Not only will the midbass not overpower the room, but such a system will almost certainly have better imaging, better coherence and less cabinet colouration.
If you don’t have bass traps and haven’t found the optimal position for the speakers. Else you’re just compensating and the transition Paul is referring to will still be lacking.
Dipole speakers work great in smaller rooms. They certainly don't have to be full range, and it's usually better they're not. Always fill the very bottom with great subs.
There's no substitute for surface area. The ideal speaker has large woofers that don't play the deepest bass. They play the mid and upper bass that is where the energy is. Subs still fill in the bottom.
I will soon find out how well LS3/5a mate with a sub. TBH, I can't afford any other route to filling in the lower registers. The LS3/5a does have a hump in response to give an illusion of bass, so it won't be perfect 🤞.
@@clickbeetle2720 I'm aware of the AB3A, but I also have other speakers that I play with. I'm not expecting audio nirvana, just better. A pessimist is rarely disappointed.
Good answer. I just don't buy it. I think Paul is doing the right thing making a line of full range speakers. Because that is what the market expects. OTOH, if you built a form follows function, you would have a smaller stand mounted speaker for the mid bass on up (perhaps open baffle) and a pair of subs placed optimally in the room. It could be done by separating the two boxes of the FR30 and placing them optimally. Or as simple as a small pair of open baffles on stands or hanging from the ceiling and a pair of REL subs.
Also, as Paul has mentioned in previous videos, the lower you can set the crossover point to the subwoofer, the better. A small stand-mount speaker that doesn’t play with authority below 60hz (for example) will require a higher crossover point to the subwoofer, which can diminish the ability for the subwoofer to aurally ‘disappear’.
. "Small" & "standmount" are 2 irrelevant terms here. I suggest you redefine to non-full range speakers. For just one example, the floorstanding Klipsch Heresy with a 12" inch woofer is notoriously lacking in very low frequency response. The Heresy is neither small nor standmount. Secondly, there must be consideration given to a crossover's slope. These hard cut-offs at 60 or 80 hertz are very near arbitrary and don't consider the actual main speaker's low frequency curve or specifically what's missing to get to flat. Most of the info given are rules of thumb & can be misleading as is the case HERE. And last, remember that if a sub-woofer can be heard, then there is stereo imaging & soundstage there. Meaning the subwoofer is making up for the missing audible bass in a full range speaker. Consequently, a PAIR of sub-woofers would be warranted and they should be positioned in place of the stands of a standmount loudspeaker. Acid Jazz, Funk & Brass 🔈🔉🔊
. Why do you recommend putting the amps on the ground (or 4 inches from it) between the loudspeakers? Do your amps function at waist height? Are your amps limited to speaker cables of 8 feet or less only? Acid Jazz, Funk & Brass 🔈🔉🔊
My experiences with multiple setups is this, you need subs on each tower speaker to get excellent Stereo imaging. Cause I have learned if you only use 1 sub then the music bounce from left to right you get almost No effects. Subs in each tower will produce better/best stereo imaging. Then you add an additional sub to place where it's Voids your sound
There's no stereo imaging that low in the frequency, if subwoofers are integrated too high then they could interfere. One listening position in the room could get away with one subwoofer if placed well in the room (in some rooms it might be all that's needed), it's the rooms physical dimensions vs listening position that matters (so 2-4 subwoofers might be needed to even out the majority of a room).
IMHO bass traps in a room are more important than 2 or more subs....what good is bass if you can't turn up the volume without boominess. Bass traps changed my life!
If your sub is a perfect match for your speakers, I guess it could work. I'd just rather not fiddle with crossover points, voicing, sub position. I went with full range towers.
A very good suggestion from Paul Sir... I don't have any speakers to use at the moment but still love to gather speakers/amp related knowledges from Respected Paul Sir.
I look upon my two subs as less speakers and more as room conditioning....my listening space is quite "bright" and the subs low frequencies (those you feel more than you hear) fill the space with a low end that quite easily gets lost. If you hear the subs, you have them set too loud....its a subtle line. Saying that, very few speakers I have heard do not benefit from a pair of subs.
I guess like all things subjective...designers, companies and producers have researched, tested and produced virtually every possible type or configuration of products ...or ranges of different products ... which either they subjectively like, prefer, or hope their potential customer will like too! As there is no perfect solution for everyone! But always good when something is just about.... spot on 😂
If you randomly choose any bookshelf speaker, and randomly choose any sub to go with your bookshelf speakers it will probably be a reasonably good match; not a mismatch. While mismatches are possible, that's not the probability. Unless I've been very lucky all this years. I use a 10 inch sub and it lacks nothing that I can hear, including synergy with the side speakers. Big speakers often have superior dynamics, less strain and better power handling, which lets you play them louder with more confidence, and less worry.
Your little 10 sub isn’t producing the bass that the $30k speakers in the video can produce without a sub. We aren’t talking about the same things. He’s talking about matching a very high end pair of subs to very high end speakers.
@Thom.whatever. Re: PS Audio comment. You don't understand anything, and strike me as one of those audio braggarts who like to contradict people so they don't feel dumb. Perhaps you feel that way from giving away a fortune over...audio equipment! Equipment that doesn't have to cost 1/5 that much. And there's equipment that does the same thing for that much less My " little "10 inch subwoofer, as you call it, is a very high quality unit and it's smaller driver size and lower mass enables it to have transient speed, delicacy and definition, which is rarely, ( if ever) encountered in more massive sized drivers. A little Porsche can start and stop a lot quicker than a Mach truck. My sub's large cabinet enables it to have much deeper bass than usual for a ten inch, and I've heard even 8 inch woofers that go surprisingly deep. Deeper than your room will go. Sounds like you're showing off and are looking for an argument. You picked the wrong to try and make feel insecure about his system. I have by far the best sound I have ever heard Bass wavelengths below 30 hertz are 50 feet long. Do you have a room that's 50 feet long to let out that low a note? I'd guess not. My sub has bass as deep as a 28 foot room will allow. You may think you're hearing bass into the 20 some hertz region; but acoustic experts will tell you that it is delusionary, and is a sheer impossibility if you room is not 50 feet long.
. Sidesup quote "...a 10 inch sub and it lacks nothing that I can hear", Lol, that's exactly the point friend. One can't miss what one can't hear. Acid Jazz, Funk & Brass 🔈🔉🔊
I've heard you mindless ones with your bass boom boom, driving past with no respect for others. Maybe you think you have good bass because it has a bunch of phony ass thumping. Guess what my bass sounds like? You'll never guess. My bass sounds like a musical instrument! Nothing more & nothing less. It is accurate, like my other frequencies. Like I wouldn't be able to buy a bigger woofer if I wanted to. I'm impressed with people who collect Italian sports cars, not audio braggarts who have 15 inch woofers. I had 15 inch woofer speakers when I was in my teens. My bass is tight, well defined and controlled, and like bass in real life, it only gets fat when the note goes down low enough. I have headphones where the bass goes down below 20 hertz; I'd know if I'm missing anything from hearing and comparing how the music sounds through those also. Also I know someone with old IMF Reference Standard speakers, where the bass goes down to 16 hertz, so your bad inference that I have nothing to compare that would let me hear what's missing isn't very smart at all. Bass wavelengths under 30 hertz are 50 to 60 feet long...Look it up... Do you have a room that is that big, that will even let out a note like that? Fat chance. You probably think your thumpy phony sonic sensationalized 55 hertz is 25 hertz So there's an infinite amount of things wrong with what you say. Nothing wrong with my comment. Only with you.
That "mate" and transition is ALWAYS better done with a DSP (and meassuring microphone). Than ANNY passive crossover in a speaker box that in the topology is in the worst place of the system. 😅 Right between the poweramp an the speaker driver..😢 But is the most convenient place for users to have a passive crossover and therfore the next best thing.🎉 But yet a compromize for sound quality. And most opt in for convenience.😂😂❤
yes and on top of that is the active subwoofer that does adc to do dsp then dac again. i know simplicity sells but also people tweak their system with gear and placement so i would guess that many already are not having a simple system.
@@sudd3660 As I see it.. To have a DSP in the subwoofer is also rather stupid place to have it in the topology.🤔 It just subwoofer manufacturer that place a DSP there... Because they sell us that "speakerbox"..🤣 The right way to do it is to toss out the preamplifier if you use one.💖 There were your DSP as preamp should be. 👍 Now you can control where (Hz) and how (1, 2 3 or 4th order or linkwitz or Butterworth). We should let the mid woofer play down to and "mate" with the subwoofer..🤪 You see a DSP in a subwoofer can NOT do that when it is in the totally wrong place in the system.. It is somewhat like writing "Turbo" on the subwoofer cardboard box.. It just make them to sell more subwoofers.. And Mr Paul is acting as a seller for their speakers..🤣 The "truth" is maybe somewhere in between.🥰 Now when the DSP is replacing the preamplifier (and remember that if we do the below correctly then that will be the BEST preamplifier cost no object!)🤯 Now the DSP can make the SQ wise the best crossover between your bass and midrange. It could do the same between midrange and tweeter if you like in the future.🥳 You can calibrated your complete system AND your specific room acoustics!🤯 Not only that you could implement one or many house curves that support your individual hearing (see loudness curves) and subjective taste. And adjust for different albums mixes plus at what sound levels you listening to.🤯 Plus so much more SQ enhancement stuff that just almost only your creative mind can image.🤯 Even put your TT into that DSP preamp and do the AD conversion and fix EVERYTHING (crossover points, PEQ, your subjective preferences, recording mix, system color weakness, room correction and so on).💖 So even when you do AD and then DA conversion on the most inexpensive and worst measuring DSP that you can lay your hands on. You still will end up with better sound quality than NOT doing the AD and DA conversion!😉 When whatever that small degradation there MAY be will be negligible compared to all the other sound quality improvements you are getting everywhere! 😅 Don't worry about any possible degradation of sound quality degradations from the AD and DA conversion.🤔 And it is easy to see why a DSP as preamp is outperforming ANY old school passive preamplifier cost no object! 👍
@@AmazonasBiotop well said, i have the same thoughts on the matter. but i do not like fully active system, passive main speakers so that the hiss noise is gone is my preference. I have and recommend a preamp/dsp/volume control unit, then dac's or power amps as needed.
@@sudd3660 Great! 🤗 To be honest I don't like where the normal passive crossover is placed in the speakers. But I have unfortunately still a crossover in my 2 way and only utilize the DSP crossover between the midband woofers and the passive bass drivers (two OB 18" handing in the air of the floor boundary just for sound quality reasons. Trying to remove compromises.). So I do not cross over between the tweeter and the mid woofer. The current limiting factor is that I have only 4 channels out in my DSP and I need 6 channels to be able to accomplish that setup. I believe that a big reason why it is noisy hiss in the tweeter is the pairing to how quiet the power amplifier is. And the input sensitivity of the tweeter. 🤔 The higher the tweeter sensitivity is the quieter the power amp needs to be..🎶 But as I said I have not yet tried THAT configuration yet. 👍 There is so many projects. 🤪
@@AmazonasBiotop same here, 4 channel out, and mine are all digital. so i got the chance to try our power amps and plater amps like hypex 123, all make hiss noise in my house. at least i tried, now i just enjoy passive 2 way main speakers and subwoofers, mains have a passive crossover, it is fine for my use.
My set up is a mid 2000s Jensen surround. My towers have d appolito array with a third woofer for bass and I have two separate 10 inch Jensen subwoofers. One next to the left and one next to the right towers. They are crossed over at 80hz are in stereo and reverse polarity which provides faster response. The sound is amazing. I would need an entirely new speaker set up if I were to own full range towers in order to keep the synergy. The benefit of using active subwoofers is reduced strain on the amplifier allowing more power to flow to all the speakers and better longevity of the amp.
Thank you Paul for answering my question. My idea was, that some manufacturers make speakers that go so low that it’s fine in the Kitchen or the basement but not so much where we sit and listen. So wouldn’t it be better to take the bottom end of your FR30 and put them somewhere in the room where it makes more impact on the listening position. Of course I understand that there something like, what we call here “the wifefactor”
The crossover point would be too high, the lower end might be good if it integrate better with the rooms dimensions and your listening position. Bass has a tendency to "bundle up" in certain areas, like corners in the room or sometimes in other rooms. Subbass region is about physical dimensions of the room and the wave length, higher frequency is about off axis response from each driver, and distance to the next driver that it's going to integrate with at the crossover point (ideal is said to be 1/4 of the wave length measured center to center on the drivers, but many end up using a slightly longer distance).
I think this is all speculation on Paul’s part until he presents the frequency response graphs of his full range speaker vs a high end bookshelf sized speaker with one or two quality subs. And regardless, there is no “better” unless the listener prefers it, and I’m confident that there are many rooms where a sub/sat arrangement will outperform full range speakers in the minds of many listeners. Unfortunately, we’ll just have to wait for Paul to finish developing his subwoofer before he magically comes around on this topic.
Imo a speaker calling itself fullrange, but needs a seperate subwoofer, is a lie. A *Full range* speaker should handle - as the name says - the full range, which includes the subwoofer-range . That's why my next speakers i will build, will be fullrange .
Could point out that subwoofers were originally intended for sub-bass -- below 20 Hz. One was used, not only is stereo nonaudibile at that frequency, it's not audible period. Then the "sub-sat" systems pushed up the crossover, with "subs" that are minimal as woofers. And the ideal satellite possibly *is* specifically designed, not deep but formidable down to some frequency.
My bookshelf speakers go flat to 50 Hz (pink noise tested with analyzer), so why should I need an extra woofer for the lower end to fill a gap between mid and sub when there is no gap?
It depends as there's drawbacks to everything when it comes to audio, you always trade one thing for another so it's about finding the best compromise. Intermodular distortion could be one in this example, if you play loud.
no one said a literal gap, it is more like you do not have the cone area from 50hz to 150hz to recreate real sounding audio. so either you cross the subwoofer up higher or have larger main speakers.
Once a company dips it's toes in the gloss, extravagance and myth pool it's hard to just admit the newfangled, youngster undercutters with bookshelf/center/sub (like SVS) are putting out killer results. I watched a B&W video where the dude talked for 20 minutes about the tweeter sticking out 1" more and that is funny.
avoid flat, but instead something that sound evenly loud to your ears. saying flat can mean so many things depending how you measure or hear. we need to be clear in the language we use.
If you cross-over at 100Hz you have 11 feet of wave length sound waves that are shared between your stereo speakers and subwoofer. A single subwoofer can easily end up in same or opposite phase of what is being output from your stereo speakers causing major frequency response irregularities. This is why I usually end up wanting to EQ in the bass. If you don't high-pass filter your stereo speakers and they have poor performing bass, you might end up with a lot of distortion from those tinier woofers. Perhaps you have an excellent subwoofer delivering very clean sub bass but your stereo speakers output vent noise and cone compression distortion, when trying to make more bass. With those FR30 I can see why you wouldn't want high pass filtering on them, but a pair of smaller speakers need It when paired with a subwoofer for cleanest bass.
Speaking of Subwoofer 🔊 …So In 2000 Steven Spielberg Was To Showcases This Custom Subwoofer Now This Subwoofer is One of a Kind Now I Will Not Get Into Specifics Yet It Was 6’ Tall and 6’ Wide over 6’ in Length I Was Not Privy To The Name and Manufacture I Was The One Who Picked It Up From a Home in The San Fernando Valley and Deliver to The Bing Theatre on The USC Campus Now This Story is Not About This Giant Subwoofer Actually This Pig of a Subwoofer Was Covered in Plywood and Boxed and In a Wooden Shipping Container Yet It Was Over 800 Pounds So I Get This Pig To This Small Loading Dock On The USC Campus am in This Huge Truck Yet The Road Am On Was a Gulf Cart Road Anyway I Get This Subwoofer Off The Truck On To a Pallet Jack And Into The Bing Theatre 🎭 So That Evening I Take My Date To Morton’s Stake House Drinks Stakes The Whole Bit It’s a Shirt And Tie Place And So It’s Time To Pay My Bill 💵 I Give The Waiter My Credit Union Card The Tab Was Around $600 Bucks So I Give My Card To The Waiter and He Comes Back and Says “” You’re Credit Card is No Good “” So I Give Him Another Card ….He Comes Back And Says…” This Card Is No Good “” So I Gave Him My American Express Card And The Waiter Said “ This Card Is No Good” 😌 I Said “” Bull Shit “” I Asked The Waiter “” Does The Card Reader Say Declined “” He Said No It Just Doesn’t Say Anything….So I Put 2+2 Together So I Said “” Take The American Express Card And Type In Every Number And Then See If It Clears “” The Young Man Said “ The Card Worked “ My Date Asked “What Was Going On” I Said To The Waiter And My Date “” I Moved a Giant Subwoofer For Steven Spielberg Today The Magnet 🧲 Was So Strong That It Wiped Out The Magnetic 🧲 Strip on My Credit Cards 💳 I Had in My Wallet…..!
Of course Full range speakers are better, they are also very large, require a lot of power, take up a lot of space, for most people's living rooms or family rooms. Hence, satellite speakers with a small subwoofer are so incredible popular. I own Kef Q750, which are not a large tower speaker in compared to others, and my wife thinks they are enormous (and no mine Q750 are not even FR)Try selling the idea of these large heavy full range speakers to your wife and see how that goes. I would argue that they are not that much better in smaller rooms, i.e. as in a home.
Hehe! I belong to a time when, even considering, having a subwoofer in a stereo system was a capital sin! Now the so called audiophiles say that it’s a must! No thanks.
I like single source "point "8 inch back & front load horn full range ,why ?it is same as recording microphone "point "source ,it made pin point sound stage ,you will understanding what is "Stereo ＂
Some people have home theater and listening audio double duty systems on a budget. That's typically where you see separate sub and satellite type speakers. Now for theater only having separate sub you mainly are using for heart pounding bass to feel the movie. With easy listening system you are using for coherency and oneness of the sound. Back in the day I had a big home theater set up. Had the M & K dual 12 inch subs in push pull configuration behind my bean bag when I was a teenager. They were absolute monster I felt in my soul. They were competing with Velodyne back then and were not cheap in price but excellent quality.
This all depends on where the crossover from the mid to upper bass is. You can use a smaller sub (like an 8") that can mate very well to say a 5" midrange, if the mid is able to be crossed at around 150Hz. A larger say 12" sub can also be added to the mix with a low pass cut-off at say 40-50Hz so the very low bass is reinforced. Here the selection of the full range / midrange driver becomes the most important. Avoiding multiple woofers also can reduce cost and certainly the need for large cabinets with all that bracing.
Not to mention MONO sub sound vs STEREO sub sound... and, of course, the in-line array of all the speakers delivering sound totally in phase to your ears.
Without walls line array of woofers would get in phase. Unfortunately, room acoustics don't work that way. I get more phase coherence with two subs or by cutting in half the tower speakers.
@@clickbeetle2720 It doesn't matter if low frequencies have been recorded in stereo or mono. One sub creates an asymmetry in pressures that I can feel and measure even if I can't localize it. That's how room acoustics mess with sound.
@@clickbeetle2720 . Tracks with bass? (most consider these as sub-bass, but it's not) Listen to these bands. Lettuce, The Budos Band, Ikebe Shakedown, Funky Destination, Electro Delux, Polyrhythmics, Cissy Street, Cory Wong, Galactic, Papa Grows Funk, Down to the Bone, Black Mantra.............................. That should get you STARTED!
Acid Jazz, Funk & Brass 🔈🔉🔊
@@clickbeetle2720 .
Well these bands don't seem to compress the low end of human powered instruments whether they be drums, strings or a Tuba in their recording. These are mostly physically large multi-instrument bands with NO vocalists. It's the instruments who are stars. There are no synthesized instruments here.
Not only is the bass guitar sounstaged traditionally panned left and mid-field but the texture of thumb to E note string can be distinguished. Try a few songs quick & if it's good than it won't be work. It'll be pleasure.
One sub or two? If someone is hearing music out of one sub or any amount of subs then it should be acknowledged a stereo image & soundstage exists and should be treated as such by incorporating two subs in the same manner as the pair of main stereo loudspeakers.
If your listening to synthetic bass beats then none of it matters anyway. There is no tone or texture to be heard at all.
Acid Jazz, Funk & Brass 🔈🔉🔊
I find an 8" sub/s mates nice with same/and or smaller drivers, especially dual subs and placed behind the speakers (2-way) and gives me full range. I'm not in the weird 'scatter subs here, there or everywhere' world, but whatever.
That's what I found to work best in my room too. I've always wondered about the benefits of coupling the sub to the tower in terms of distance, i.e., I noticed that my soundstage was deeper and fuller with the speakers closer to the subs, which had been positioned for best bass presentation (consistent volume across the bass frequencies--actually, Chris B's acoustic bass from PS Audio's Hi-Fi book!). When I had pulled the speakers a bit farther out from the front wall and farther away from the subs, I didn't get a better overall sound; it was thinner in the middle, with a flatter soundstage. When I moved them closer to the subs, but still 2.5' off the front wall, the system bloomed. So, I've always wondered if coupling those 8" subs to the tower with dual 5.25" woofers was why.
My 8 inch sub is off the floor and to the side (not behind). I have the "close your eyes" and "get lost" audio system that I almost can't believe how wonderfully immersive and enjoyable it is. No one knows there is a sub in the room. Maybe I am fortunate to have stumbled upon my system's components. TH-cam has been a tremendous source of expert advice.
Paul, Hand in France's question was not fully addressed.
The lower part of your FR30 speakers are akin to subs, as they go down to very low octaves.
What Hand was asking was why do you not have your FR30 speakers split into separate cabinets. As you described, your FR30's woofer section integrates seamlessly with the midrange driver section.
As such, if your FR30 speakers were in two sections, then their integration would be ideal, and you could place the bass cabinet separatly, to achieve the best bass response at the listener's seated position.
Hi. I think the problem there is that the crossover frequency from the woofers to the mid drivers is too high for that. Although I've not looked I reckon it'll be somewhere between 500 -800hz meaning that the woofers will be effectively playing some of the vocal range and their locations will be very easy to identify.
My thought precisely. Form follows function. The FR30 (and all the others) are built to sort of fit into a living room. In a dedicated sound room I'd have a small open baffle handle 100 to 30kHz and the best bass boxes you can build placed around the room where bass is best. Likely have the bass boxes driven by class D and the fullish range by a really good tube amp.
You asked my question better than I did 😊. The Idea is that going sub low with your main speakers is pointless.
@@vosenfaber8631 "The Idea is that going sub low with your main speakers is pointless."
That depends on your room.
My room is too small to include a sub-woofer. I have nowhere to place it. So I depend on my main speakers for 100% of the bass.
If my room was larger, then subs would be ideal.
I am going to make it to Boulder one day and hear these.
I went from exclusively bookshelves with stereo sub's (wired directly from my amp's terminals) to Large presentation AR Classic 30's. I am no longer a bookshelf with sub's guy. All of that 30-20k emanating from the same location, nothing like it. That's not to say I don't run a pair of highly resolving subs with them just the same. I do, to augment the bottom end to the point I can feel the strums of a bass guitar. No, the bass is not overpowering with the sub's. Hits like a sledgehammer...with definition and delicacy when required. Gr Research just designed new crossovers for my AR's. So good, I have no words yet. That one augmenting sub Paul talks about, usually at the back of the room making us feel the bass down to 20Hz in style is why some are confused.
Hi Paul, always love to listen to your answers to questions and enjoy reading your book as well. Question: Who makes the diffusers you have there? I think someone asked this question previously, but not aware of a specific answer. Thank you.
Ah yes, but the point source folk would challenge you about all of those different point sources you have in the displayed speakers. It is also the argument behind the Sibelius speakers. A small woofer handling bass and mid-range (and an attempt for it to handle treble as well). The Sibelius definitely covers the point- source claim for a more natural integration of sound.
The first speaker pair I made in about 1960 used a single wide-range 10" Richard Allen speaker. i loved it but after a while I felt that it needed quite a boost of the tone control to bring out the treble. Trouble was the boosted treble from the whizzer cone of the 10" was quite harsh.
Solution? I added a small cone tweeter and that gave me nicer treble. Since then I always included a specialist tweeter in any speakers I made. A pity about the point source going out the window!
To each their own
full range speakers is a noble goal, as long as you do not cut to many corner to get there.
and more powerful bass from a speaker makes for easier subwoofer integration in general if you do not have any dsp.
even port or passive radiators can help so it matched the delay in the subwoofers at those frequencies, not optimal but it can work for that use.
I had that M&K David & Goliath sub/satellite system back in the "Old Days" !
Depends on how loud you want to be..because.the 6 inch cant be played as low as it needs to and fill the gap. If you want to get loud you need more 6s. Or 8s..to equal the output of large subs..personally I have 4 15s and 12 8s in my front of the room..haha .
THE issue is room modes. One needs to understand room modes and learn about the room mode situation in their own listening room and then figure a way to neutralize the room modes. As long as you don't do that you will be forever mystified as to why you can't get good sound.
There's a bit more to it than simply having a larger driver,or drivers to "mate" with a subwoofer. While a larger driver may be more able to shift air,the compliance of the suspension,system tuning and room all play their part in how the bass sounds. Adding a sub or two can be effective if positioned in such a way as to deal with nulls at the listening position. This is somewhat relying on the ability to place the subwoofer(s) in a position that allows that compensation to take place. This may not always be practical if there's furniture located in the "hotspot" areas,so a "second best" location may have to do as a compromise. Some subwoofers on the market lack the flexibility and facilities to compensate for less than optimal positioning and the slope of their filters,which has an effect on their ability to blend with the main speakers is rarely,if ever mentioned. Additionally, if the end user isn't familiar enough with how their main speakers integrate with the listening room he,or she will be quite unable to judge how to blend the subs with the main speakers properly. Below around 200hz the room is the dominant factor for the low end and if there's not sufficient ability to see how the speakers are affected by the room and placement (including the subwoofer(s),then it's more of a guessing game.Not that enjoyable results can't be attained,but if one is looking for accuracy and "properness" in the bass they'll need to be able to measure the effects and compensate with DSP or EQ.
Paul is 100% correct.
A speaker never plays flat and needs to be adjusted with EQ. or passive crossover. Bass must be adjusted in relation to the midrange to play correctly.
If you have a small midrange and a large separate bass box, they don't always play well together. The bass speaker must also play relatively bright to meet the midrange.
Bass will also play slower than the midrange.
Many bass boxes only have a dividing filter that only goes from one frequency to deeper, which means a lot of color in the bass sound area.
It's not as easy as just taking a bookshelf speaker and a large bass box and the sound will be good
Today this doesn't have to be a big problem as it was, with room correction software, or a miniDSP that has a function as an EQ. This was a bigger problem before.
Home cinema today is based on "syncing" the sound and correcting the frequensis by help of room correction like Dirac, ARC, RoomPerfect or Audyssey.
But still, as you mentioned, you can not just buy a pair of bookshelf speakers and a subwoofer and think you will have great sound.
Placement of speakers is the essential part, but also a bit of room treatment. Room correction can not perform miracles, but they can improve sound.
. Quality drivers can be flat & smooth within their bandwidth.
Acid Jazz, Funk & Brass 🔈🔉🔊
thats why i always say that a 8 inch or 10 inch sub is better for bookshelf speakers. (generally with 5 or 6 inch woofers) but most sub fans insist on 15 inch..18 inch... not the best match. a sub must be a complement for what your bookshelves lack... not a earthquake in your house.
you should not note the sub but say oooh those little speakers have good bass... thats the goal not rattling the neighbourhood
Agree
depends on if you have dsp, with passive speakers and active subwoofer as limitations then maybe our statement works.
you really have to define your terms to make sense and comment useful information.
not an easy thing to to in text on a TH-cam comment section.
I have a single REL T-5X matched to a pair of McIntosh XR50 speakers that complement each other very well as the speakers are almost flat to 40htz, and I have the sub set at about 60htz. They are powered b6 a McIntosh MA-252, and the soundstage and details are amazing.
Have to disagree on this one for the scenario of a small room. There, a standmount speaker with subwoofer place in the similar plane (to reduce phase effects), will almost certainly sound better than a floorstander. Not only will the midbass not overpower the room, but such a system will almost certainly have better imaging, better coherence and less cabinet colouration.
We can agree to disagree
If you don’t have bass traps and haven’t found the optimal position for the speakers. Else you’re just compensating and the transition Paul is referring to will still be lacking.
Dipole speakers work great in smaller rooms. They certainly don't have to be full range, and it's usually better they're not. Always fill the very bottom with great subs.
There's no substitute for surface area. The ideal speaker has large woofers that don't play the deepest bass. They play the mid and upper bass that is where the energy is. Subs still fill in the bottom.
I will soon find out how well LS3/5a mate with a sub. TBH, I can't afford any other route to filling in the lower registers. The LS3/5a does have a hump in response to give an illusion of bass, so it won't be perfect 🤞.
That’s cool 👍
@@clickbeetle2720 I'm aware of the AB3A, but I also have other speakers that I play with.
I'm not expecting audio nirvana, just better.
A pessimist is rarely disappointed.
Good answer. I just don't buy it.
I think Paul is doing the right thing making a line of full range speakers. Because that is what the market expects.
OTOH, if you built a form follows function, you would have a smaller stand mounted speaker for the mid bass on up (perhaps open baffle) and a pair of subs placed optimally in the room. It could be done by separating the two boxes of the FR30 and placing them optimally. Or as simple as a small pair of open baffles on stands or hanging from the ceiling and a pair of REL subs.
Is this effect you mean the same as having good crossovers in speakers/sub satellites?
Also, as Paul has mentioned in previous videos, the lower you can set the crossover point to the subwoofer, the better. A small stand-mount speaker that doesn’t play with authority below 60hz (for example) will require a higher crossover point to the subwoofer, which can diminish the ability for the subwoofer to aurally ‘disappear’.
. "Small" & "standmount" are 2 irrelevant terms here. I suggest you redefine to non-full range speakers. For just one example, the floorstanding Klipsch Heresy with a 12" inch woofer is notoriously lacking in very low frequency response. The Heresy is neither small nor standmount.
Secondly, there must be consideration given to a crossover's slope. These hard cut-offs at 60 or 80 hertz are very near arbitrary and don't consider the actual main speaker's low frequency curve or specifically what's missing to get to flat. Most of the info given are rules of thumb & can be misleading as is the case HERE.
And last, remember that if a sub-woofer can be heard, then there is stereo imaging & soundstage there. Meaning the subwoofer is making up for the missing audible bass in a full range speaker. Consequently, a PAIR of sub-woofers would be warranted and they should be positioned in place of the stands of a standmount loudspeaker.
Acid Jazz, Funk & Brass 🔈🔉🔊
Paul Weathers did this back about 1960.
. Why do you recommend putting the amps on the ground (or 4 inches from it) between the loudspeakers? Do your amps function at waist height? Are your amps limited to speaker cables of 8 feet or less only?
Acid Jazz, Funk & Brass 🔈🔉🔊
Pag Hilom dha Paul oy... Bsan unsay klase nga speaker basta enjoy ka sa imong pagpaminaw sa music ok na na
What a great question ! chapeau
My experiences with multiple setups is this, you need subs on each tower speaker to get excellent Stereo imaging. Cause I have learned if you only use 1 sub then the music bounce from left to right you get almost No effects. Subs in each tower will produce better/best stereo imaging. Then you add an additional sub to place where it's Voids your sound
You'll need two or more subs in any configuration
There's no stereo imaging that low in the frequency, if subwoofers are integrated too high then they could interfere.
One listening position in the room could get away with one subwoofer if placed well in the room (in some rooms it might be all that's needed), it's the rooms physical dimensions vs listening position that matters (so 2-4 subwoofers might be needed to even out the majority of a room).
To bad, the lower end is mixt in mono
Maybe you can try an extra sub in the garage for better stereo sound? 😂
IMHO bass traps in a room are more important than 2 or more subs....what good is bass if you can't turn up the volume without boominess. Bass traps changed my life!
If your sub is a perfect match for your speakers, I guess it could work. I'd just rather not fiddle with crossover points, voicing, sub position.
I went with full range towers.
A very good suggestion from Paul Sir...
I don't have any speakers to use at the moment but still love to gather speakers/amp related knowledges from Respected Paul Sir.
I look upon my two subs as less speakers and more as room conditioning....my listening space is quite "bright" and the subs low frequencies (those you feel more than you hear) fill the space with a low end that quite easily gets lost. If you hear the subs, you have them set too loud....its a subtle line.
Saying that, very few speakers I have heard do not benefit from a pair of subs.
Thanks!
I guess like all things subjective...designers, companies and producers have researched, tested and produced virtually every possible type or configuration of products ...or ranges of different products ... which either they subjectively like, prefer, or hope their potential customer will like too! As there is no perfect solution for everyone!
But always good when something is just about.... spot on 😂
If you randomly choose any bookshelf speaker, and randomly choose any sub to go with your bookshelf speakers it will probably be a reasonably good match; not a mismatch. While mismatches are possible, that's not the probability. Unless I've been very lucky all this years. I use a 10 inch sub and it lacks nothing that I can hear, including synergy with the side speakers. Big speakers often have superior dynamics, less strain and better power handling, which lets you play them louder with more confidence, and less worry.
Your little 10 sub isn’t producing the bass that the $30k speakers in the video can produce without a sub. We aren’t talking about the same things. He’s talking about matching a very high end pair of subs to very high end speakers.
@Thom.whatever. Re: PS Audio comment. You don't understand anything, and strike me as one of those audio braggarts who like to contradict people so they don't feel dumb. Perhaps you feel that way from giving away a fortune over...audio equipment! Equipment that doesn't have to cost 1/5 that much. And there's equipment that does the same thing for that much less
My " little "10 inch subwoofer, as you call it, is a very high quality unit and it's smaller driver size and lower mass enables it to have transient speed, delicacy and definition, which is rarely, ( if ever) encountered in more massive sized drivers. A little Porsche can start and stop a lot quicker than a Mach truck. My sub's large cabinet enables it to have much deeper bass than usual for a ten inch, and I've heard even 8 inch woofers that go surprisingly deep. Deeper than your room will go. Sounds like you're showing off and are looking for an argument. You picked the wrong to try and make feel insecure about his system. I have by far the best sound I have ever heard Bass wavelengths below 30 hertz are 50 feet long. Do you have a room that's 50 feet long to let out that low a note? I'd guess not. My sub has bass as deep as a 28 foot room will allow. You may think you're hearing bass into the 20 some hertz region; but acoustic experts will tell you that it is delusionary, and is a sheer impossibility if you room is not 50 feet long.
. Sidesup quote "...a 10 inch sub and it lacks nothing that I can hear", Lol, that's exactly the point friend. One can't miss what one can't hear.
Acid Jazz, Funk & Brass 🔈🔉🔊
I've heard you mindless ones with your bass boom boom, driving past with no respect for others. Maybe you think you have good bass because it has a bunch of phony ass thumping. Guess what my bass sounds like? You'll never guess. My bass sounds like a musical instrument! Nothing more & nothing less. It is accurate, like my other frequencies. Like I wouldn't be able to buy a bigger woofer if I wanted to. I'm impressed with people who collect Italian sports cars, not audio braggarts who have 15 inch woofers. I had 15 inch woofer speakers when I was in my teens. My bass is tight, well defined and controlled, and like bass in real life, it only gets fat when the note goes down low enough. I have headphones where the bass goes down below 20 hertz; I'd know if I'm missing anything from hearing and comparing how the music sounds through those also. Also I know someone with old IMF Reference Standard speakers, where the bass goes down to 16 hertz, so your bad inference that I have nothing to compare that would let me hear what's missing isn't very smart at all. Bass wavelengths under 30 hertz are 50 to 60 feet long...Look it up... Do you have a room that is that big, that will even let out a note like that? Fat chance. You probably think your thumpy phony sonic sensationalized 55 hertz is 25 hertz So there's an infinite amount of things wrong with what you say. Nothing wrong with my comment. Only with you.
In other words many drivers to cover lots of frequencies
Paul's answers and explanation are really helpful and intuitive....
❤❤❤
That "mate" and transition is ALWAYS better done with a DSP (and meassuring microphone).
Than ANNY passive crossover in a speaker box that in the topology is in the worst place of the system. 😅
Right between the poweramp an the speaker driver..😢
But is the most convenient place for users to have a passive crossover and therfore the next best thing.🎉
But yet a compromize for sound quality. And most opt in for convenience.😂😂❤
yes and on top of that is the active subwoofer that does adc to do dsp then dac again.
i know simplicity sells but also people tweak their system with gear and placement so i would guess that many already are not having a simple system.
@@sudd3660 As I see it..
To have a DSP in the subwoofer is also rather stupid place to have it in the topology.🤔
It just subwoofer manufacturer that place a DSP there... Because they sell us that "speakerbox"..🤣
The right way to do it is to toss out the preamplifier if you use one.💖
There were your DSP as preamp should be. 👍
Now you can control where (Hz) and how (1, 2 3 or 4th order or linkwitz or Butterworth).
We should let the mid woofer play down to and "mate" with the subwoofer..🤪
You see a DSP in a subwoofer can NOT do that when it is in the totally wrong place in the system.. It is somewhat like writing "Turbo" on the subwoofer cardboard box.. It just make them to sell more subwoofers.. And Mr Paul is acting as a seller for their speakers..🤣
The "truth" is maybe somewhere in between.🥰
Now when the DSP is replacing the preamplifier (and remember that if we do the below correctly then that will be the BEST preamplifier cost no object!)🤯
Now the DSP can make the SQ wise the best crossover between your bass and midrange. It could do the same between midrange and tweeter if you like in the future.🥳
You can calibrated your complete system AND your specific room acoustics!🤯
Not only that you could implement one or many house curves that support your individual hearing (see loudness curves) and subjective taste. And adjust for different albums mixes plus at what sound levels you listening to.🤯
Plus so much more SQ enhancement stuff that just almost only your creative mind can image.🤯
Even put your TT into that DSP preamp and do the AD conversion and fix EVERYTHING (crossover points, PEQ, your subjective preferences, recording mix, system color weakness, room correction and so on).💖
So even when you do AD and then DA conversion on the most inexpensive and worst measuring DSP that you can lay your hands on. You still will end up with better sound quality than NOT doing the AD and DA conversion!😉
When whatever that small degradation there MAY be will be negligible compared to all the other sound quality improvements you are getting everywhere! 😅
Don't worry about any possible degradation of sound quality degradations from the AD and DA conversion.🤔
And it is easy to see why a DSP as preamp is outperforming ANY old school passive preamplifier cost no object! 👍
@@AmazonasBiotop well said, i have the same thoughts on the matter.
but i do not like fully active system, passive main speakers so that the hiss noise is gone is my preference.
I have and recommend a preamp/dsp/volume control unit, then dac's or power amps as needed.
@@sudd3660 Great! 🤗
To be honest I don't like where the normal passive crossover is placed in the speakers.
But I have unfortunately still a crossover in my 2 way and only utilize the DSP crossover between the midband woofers and the passive bass drivers (two OB 18" handing in the air of the floor boundary just for sound quality reasons. Trying to remove compromises.).
So I do not cross over between the tweeter and the mid woofer.
The current limiting factor is that I have only 4 channels out in my DSP and I need 6 channels to be able to accomplish that setup.
I believe that a big reason why it is noisy hiss in the tweeter is the pairing to how quiet the power amplifier is.
And the input sensitivity of the tweeter. 🤔
The higher the tweeter sensitivity is the quieter the power amp needs to be..🎶
But as I said I have not yet tried THAT configuration yet. 👍
There is so many projects. 🤪
@@AmazonasBiotop same here, 4 channel out, and mine are all digital. so i got the chance to try our power amps and plater amps like hypex 123, all make hiss noise in my house.
at least i tried, now i just enjoy passive 2 way main speakers and subwoofers, mains have a passive crossover, it is fine for my use.
My set up is a mid 2000s Jensen surround. My towers have d appolito array with a third woofer for bass and I have two separate 10 inch Jensen subwoofers. One next to the left and one next to the right towers. They are crossed over at 80hz are in stereo and reverse polarity which provides faster response. The sound is amazing. I would need an entirely new speaker set up if I were to own full range towers in order to keep the synergy.
The benefit of using active subwoofers is reduced strain on the amplifier allowing more power to flow to all the speakers and better longevity of the amp.
Thank you Paul for answering my question. My idea was, that some manufacturers make speakers that go so low that it’s fine in the Kitchen or the basement but not so much where we sit and listen. So wouldn’t it be better to take the bottom end of your FR30 and put them somewhere in the room where it makes more impact on the listening position. Of course I understand that there something like, what we call here “the wifefactor”
The crossover point would be too high, the lower end might be good if it integrate better with the rooms dimensions and your listening position.
Bass has a tendency to "bundle up" in certain areas, like corners in the room or sometimes in other rooms.
Subbass region is about physical dimensions of the room and the wave length, higher frequency is about off axis response from each driver, and distance to the next driver that it's going to integrate with at the crossover point (ideal is said to be 1/4 of the wave length measured center to center on the drivers, but many end up using a slightly longer distance).
@@PSA78Thank you again. It makes more sense now. Even to me 😊
I think this is all speculation on Paul’s part until he presents the frequency response graphs of his full range speaker vs a high end bookshelf sized speaker with one or two quality subs. And regardless, there is no “better” unless the listener prefers it, and I’m confident that there are many rooms where a sub/sat arrangement will outperform full range speakers in the minds of many listeners. Unfortunately, we’ll just have to wait for Paul to finish developing his subwoofer before he magically comes around on this topic.
you are reading too much into his little video, it is a large topic that does not fit in a short video or can be explain in full in a comment.
@@sudd3660That is all true. It is also true that Paul has a warehouse full of full range speakers to sell. Two things can be true at the same time.
Imo a speaker calling itself fullrange, but needs a seperate subwoofer, is a lie. A *Full range* speaker should handle - as the name says - the full range, which includes the subwoofer-range . That's why my next speakers i will build, will be fullrange .
What's a better way is having a full range driver complemented with a sub.
In our opinion. Not pauls, but thats Great to.
Could point out that subwoofers were originally intended for sub-bass -- below 20 Hz. One was used, not only is stereo nonaudibile at that frequency, it's not audible period. Then the "sub-sat" systems pushed up the crossover, with "subs" that are minimal as woofers. And the ideal satellite possibly *is* specifically designed, not deep but formidable down to some frequency.
My bookshelf speakers go flat to 50 Hz (pink noise tested with analyzer), so why should I need an extra woofer for the lower end to fill a gap between mid and sub when there is no gap?
It depends as there's drawbacks to everything when it comes to audio, you always trade one thing for another so it's about finding the best compromise. Intermodular distortion could be one in this example, if you play loud.
no one said a literal gap, it is more like you do not have the cone area from 50hz to 150hz to recreate real sounding audio.
so either you cross the subwoofer up higher or have larger main speakers.
@@sudd3660 True, my audio sounds shit when i start to sing. 😉
Once a company dips it's toes in the gloss, extravagance and myth pool it's hard to just admit the newfangled, youngster undercutters with bookshelf/center/sub (like SVS) are putting out killer results. I watched a B&W video where the dude talked for 20 minutes about the tweeter sticking out 1" more and that is funny.
In other word you need a flat frequency response.
avoid flat, but instead something that sound evenly loud to your ears.
saying flat can mean so many things depending how you measure or hear.
we need to be clear in the language we use.
If you cross-over at 100Hz you have 11 feet of wave length sound waves that are shared between your stereo speakers and subwoofer. A single subwoofer can easily end up in same or opposite phase of what is being output from your stereo speakers causing major frequency response irregularities. This is why I usually end up wanting to EQ in the bass. If you don't high-pass filter your stereo speakers and they have poor performing bass, you might end up with a lot of distortion from those tinier woofers. Perhaps you have an excellent subwoofer delivering very clean sub bass but your stereo speakers output vent noise and cone compression distortion, when trying to make more bass. With those FR30 I can see why you wouldn't want high pass filtering on them, but a pair of smaller speakers need It when paired with a subwoofer for cleanest bass.
We don't have a room that size... nor the money to spent on a system like that. Fullrange in a small room sound terrible.
Satellite-Subs have been around since AT LEAST 1948!!!
High Energy Paul Strikes Again
Alright Paul Calm Down or We Can’t Bring You With Us if You Keep Acting Up
Merci Beaucoup
Hands in Francais 🇫🇷 is
Pronounced Hans or Hons
Sorry Paul
I Was Brought Up Not To Correct My Elders
Speaking of
Subwoofer 🔊
…So In 2000
Steven Spielberg Was To
Showcases This Custom
Subwoofer Now This
Subwoofer is One of a
Kind Now I Will Not Get Into Specifics Yet It Was
6’ Tall and 6’ Wide over 6’ in Length
I Was Not Privy To
The Name and Manufacture
I Was The One Who
Picked It Up From a Home in The San Fernando Valley and Deliver to
The Bing Theatre on
The USC Campus
Now This Story is Not About This Giant Subwoofer
Actually This Pig of a
Subwoofer Was Covered in Plywood and Boxed and In a
Wooden Shipping Container Yet It Was Over 800 Pounds
So I Get This Pig To This Small Loading Dock On The USC Campus am in This Huge Truck Yet The Road Am On Was a
Gulf Cart Road Anyway I Get This Subwoofer Off The Truck On To a
Pallet Jack And Into The
Bing Theatre 🎭
So That Evening I Take My Date To Morton’s Stake House Drinks Stakes The Whole Bit It’s a Shirt And Tie Place And So It’s Time To Pay My Bill 💵
I Give The Waiter My Credit Union Card
The Tab Was Around
$600 Bucks
So I Give My Card To The Waiter and He Comes Back and Says
“” You’re Credit Card is
No Good “”
So I Give Him Another Card ….He Comes Back And Says…” This Card Is No Good “”
So I Gave Him My American Express Card
And The Waiter Said
“ This Card Is No Good”
😌 I Said “” Bull Shit “”
I Asked The Waiter
“” Does The Card Reader Say Declined “”
He Said No
It Just Doesn’t Say Anything….So I Put
2+2 Together
So I Said “” Take The American Express Card And Type In Every Number And Then See If It Clears “”
The Young Man Said
“ The Card Worked “
My Date Asked “What Was Going On”
I Said To The Waiter And My Date “” I Moved a Giant Subwoofer For Steven Spielberg Today
The Magnet 🧲 Was So Strong That It Wiped Out
The Magnetic 🧲 Strip on My Credit Cards 💳 I Had in My Wallet…..!
Of course Full range speakers are better, they are also very large, require a lot of power, take up a lot of space, for most people's living rooms or family rooms. Hence, satellite speakers with a small subwoofer are so incredible popular. I own Kef Q750, which are not a large tower speaker in compared to others, and my wife thinks they are enormous (and no mine Q750 are not even FR)Try selling the idea of these large heavy full range speakers to your wife and see how that goes. I would argue that they are not that much better in smaller rooms, i.e. as in a home.
Then you will have a satellite system like Bose
Hehe! I belong to a time when, even considering, having a subwoofer in a stereo system was a capital sin! Now the so called audiophiles say that it’s a must! No thanks.
I don’t necessarily agree a great set of subs will help the LF
of course there is exceptions to any rule, in more cases a subwoofer will do something.
Buy good speakers you dont need a sub 😅
buy good subwoofers and you wont need speakers.
Subwoofer has nothing to do with the speakers, it's about the room.
I like single source "point "8 inch back & front load horn full range ,why ?it is same as recording microphone "point "source ,it made pin point sound stage ,you will understanding what is "Stereo ＂