Sub woofers can also ease the strain on older speakers. I have a n old pair of Thiel CS 3.5''s. Way back when I bought them, I remember the idea with those was that a sub woofer (or woofers) would not be necessary, because the Thiels had what they called electronic bass equalizers that compensated for the non-linear bass response you would naturally get from their 10" woofers. But as soon as they had a few years on them, the woofers would bottom out at times during loud low frequencies. The cone suspensions were obviously getting weaker, and to save the woofers from death, I bought subwoofers to take up the strain. It seems to have worked out pretty much perfectly- some fussing and adjusting initially, but now I can have my window rattling bass when I want it, without worrying about maybe seeing my CS 3.5 woofer voice coils shooting through the grill cloth and hitting me in the chest.
I used to have the Klipsch corner loading flagship with the 15's in the bottom. Normally 15's aren't that fast with response and clarity but those were great. Usually larger subs 12 to 18 inch more suited for home theater applications for long deep extensions with effects. For audio systems and listening to music the array of 8 to 10's seem to deliver fast and powerful bass. If you use separate bass along with speaker if it's too large and too slow if will throw off the overall sound of the system with the main speakers even if you can position it separately. So the separate sub needs to be just as quick and responsive as the main speakers do for symmetry of sound. I am not an expert just what I have seen and heard over decades of trying different things.
Hi Paul, I have full range tower speakers that go down to 35Hz and I added a powered sub to start from 45Hz down. And you definitely can hear a difference when it’s on but you can’t localize sub.
@@SpiritualPsychotherapyServices reread my comment, the sub kick’s in at 45Hz. And the sub will go down to 20Hz. So it’s only working from 45Hz to 20Hz. And my towers will go to 35Hz. I love the way it sounds✌🏼
Its not BS, surely you guys understand that everyone doesn't see or hear the identically. I can easily localise my sub crossed at 80hz, and I have a small room. I HAD TO cross over at 40hz to not be able to localise it. Just because you personally aren't able to, doesn't mean the rest of us can't. Like an old school mechanic who could tune a car by ear, I can't hear what they heard but that doesn't negate the scientific fact that the tiny sounds they worked around exist. The absolute fact is that even though lower frequency sound waves are omnidirectional and large, doesn't mean both ears are hit with the wave simultaneously, our ears and brains are great at "timing" i mean we can detect 16,000 or more tiny vibrations per second. One ear will detect it first. Whether or not you can pick up on it is be decided by many things... first and foremost is your own ability another is room size or shape... Ask yourself, if someone put a subwoofer playing a 30hz tone on one side of field, and you stood in the centre of that field could you localise the sound source even though its such a low sound... ofcourse you can.
@@nicholasgilbert4227 if you can localise the sub crossed over at 80 HZ it means your sub is producing too much distortion or too much port noise. Is the port on the front or the back?
@@kyron42 You can't say that as an absolute without any data, furthermore i don't jave distortion as your describing and its sealed. The way you seem to be thinking is that bellow a magical number/frequency localising instantly drops. Thats NOT how it works. It gets increasingly difficult to localise as you lower frequency or shrink your room size, but its not as if at 81hz it can be localised but at 80hz its impossible - its gradual. Same with high frequencies, its not as if we can hear 19,999hz but not 20,001hz. As I said, you can't deny that you could EASILY pinpoint a sub plating a 30z tone in an open field. That fact alone proves my point. Look, i"m not saying that to your ears in your room 80hz can be localised, i'm saying that doesn't represent any and all situations. I'm saying with my ears and brain (only half of what you interpret as sound comes from your ears, your brain plays a massive role in interpretation too) in my room with its acoustics i can certainly localise it and even sometimes I assume because of phasing I can localise 60hz crossover, and that's not to say I'm super special by any means, but it is to say it proves that there is the possibility in the right environment... etc etc. Its not an absolute.
i had studio monitors that can only do 50hz, and while working on a song i noticed i couldn't hear the lowest note on a bass part, and it really pissed me off, picked up an energy eps150 specifically because it had a built in crossover and because it had a continuous phase adjustment pot, great subwoofer though, really cleared up my other speaker's lows too
I have some great full range floor standers, but a terrible room mode between 50-100hz. So i bought a sub and did the sub crawl and found right next to the couch worked best, but i also had to dial the sub crossover upto 100hz to fill in that massive null in the 50-100hz region. It sounds way better tho and im getting the bass impact i was missing. Luckily for me i also cant localise where the sub is. Yes 100hz is too high :(- its all a compromise with my room.
this video talks about good general rules, stereo hifi with one subwoofer. when you get two subwoofers with stereo signal you can use them in more ways with better results with larger or smaller speakers. as an example if you have small speakers with only a single 5" midwoofer and then add a 15" subwoofer, then there a "hole" near the overlap where the sub plays it sounds big and powerful and the lower part of the small speaker it sounds weak. to solve this you need stereo subwoofers to be able to cross them over higher, 120hz to 200hz, preferably with dsp to get a highpass to mains.
After I found my end-game loudspeakers, aDs 910s, I placed my two 12" subs ( SVS and Hsu Research ) in with them and while the 910s go down to 25htz in-room, the subs gave me the solid impact I craved while letting the sublime bass from the speakers fill the room. I couldn't be more pleased with the results.
Having a small speaker trying to produce sub bass when it's poorly designed for it does not help overall bass performance thus it is often better to use active cross-over when adding a subwoofer for optimum (lowest distortion) sub bass performance.
If we provide as much music as possible though main wideranges there is also another advantage. That is because different locations of both always create phase no cooperation - the lower frequency of taking over is , the longer is acoustic wave and those differences counted in inches affect phase less.
That's what I did for my Klipsch R15PM bookshelf speakers. Invested in the speakers and a good DAC, then I spent 100 bucks on a cheap Polk Audio 10 inch sub. I'm poor, and I have a small room, so that's what I went with. The subwoofer compliments the speakers and makes things sound just a little bit fuller.
Steve, I have : Sonoc full range pasive speakers , sounds amazing, but I'm confused with all new system on the market, active speakers, mine is more than 20 years solid tested audio, should I retired or keep it what is the cons and pros.?
It depends also on an individual's ears, at what frequency that they can actually start localizing a specific frequency. I personally can immediately directionally localize any frequency above about 40Hz, but some people might not be quite as sensitive to that as I am, so to an "average" listener, (if there even is such a thing), they might be just fine with a sub crossed over as high as even 60-80Hz, so it all ultimately depends on personal taste. In my own system my main tower speakers can easily do 30Hz, they even have significant output at 20-25Hz in my room, so I cross my subwoofers over at 30Hz, with them augmenting mostly only below that point, and it sounds awesome to my ears, very powerful and clean bass, but not too "boomy" or overwhelming... and for my system that is all that is needed... Whatever setup and settings in your own system that sound the best to your own ears is all that really matters... and each individual and each stereo system and listening room is different, so it's all relative. There's NO specific "set" numbers, values, or frequencies that work for every situation and everyone's individual listening preferences... You just have to experiment with your system setup and room layout and control settings until you find what works best for you.
I have a pair of B&W 804s with two B&W subs, 15” and 12”. The 804s have a frequency response of 38 hz at the low end so I’ve adjusted the 15” to cross over at 50 hz and the 12” at 60 hz. Then let Audyssey take it from there for room correction. No complaints for 90% of everything I listen to, however some tracks require elevation or declination. I’m content.
Wow great info, I love to learn from people who know about these things. I have gotten more involved in hifi recently I have learned quite a bit but I love when I learn something new details like this. These little tricks are essential to achieve better sound from your speakers. Thank you and I like how you explain everything very well Paul.
Usually to the side walls is where my Subs work best or at each end of my couch (seating position) when I had more room... Corners never worked for me especially when using the Home Theater…
@@Harald_Reindl Wrong, Klipsch made Corner Cabinets in the 60’s that are 90° angle to fit in the corners and may even still make them today.. My 90 yr. old Audiophile friend uses them with his Scott & Custom Marantz Tube Amplifiers & they blow away many speakers up to 4 grand easy.. They are collector items, are about 28” high with a 15” woofer and weigh close to 80lbs. each.. 100s of pairs were sold..Look it up.. You must be a newbie.. I’m 68 and wish he’d sell them to me👍 All depends on your room but most every room has corners😂😂.. Too each his own, right? If you get to listen to a pair, it’s guaranteed you’ll change your mind✅ Plus there are other companies who make speakers specifically for corners, just as they do for ceilings, walls, etc., Even my Original Mach Ones sound absolutely eargazmic when in the corners slightly angled 👍
@@meutubedou I know that crap but it's crap because you can't trick physics - room gain is always dirty - yeah you have a fat and big bass but from a quality level it's shit
My main speakers goes down to 26 Hz (-6db) but I still have a "high" cross over of 70 Hz. I had 60 Hz earlier but I don't know why I changed it to 70 Hz.
I would say for a pair of subs the reason is not really the localization of the source, but still the same thing, the room modes for the intended listening position. This is because for the 40-50hz room modes the listening position is dominant. So you might well get away with smaller mains if your room and listening positions are good. Though it is hard to know beforehand. Position of subs affects more for the 70-90hz room modes, but most audiophile speakers will hit that. For those modes, it is a question of living space arrangements and WAF. Can you put the subs in the optimal position. Localization issues can happen in the 60-80hz region when the integration is done poorly, and of course with things booming and rattling. But with pair of subs it is much easier to get it right and also easier to use smaller mains. For a single sub, a low crossover point makes it easier to get right. Though you will spend money on those speakers where subs and bookshelfs are not that expensive. Often unrecognized thing is that with dual subs, you can put the speakers where they image good, put the subs where they look ok and then play with DSP and delays, and get almost certainly a solution for a single listening position.
As a side, after looking at some very old, large cabinet radio's, and noting the very large drivers sometimes used - assumed to be to try and get better bottom end, I thought I'd replicate it, I had a 14 inch driver tossed my way, so I put it in a box (this is to get 'old school' radio sound, not HiFi as such). Bad idea, whilst the old school speakers just rolled off at the top, this one did not, if broke up badly. Oh well, nothing ($$$) lost. Anyone want a free 14" driver in a not so great box?
@0:50 "...and one would say you don't need a sub -- and in many cases, you don't" But you want sub-woofers, always. Aside from your explanation, there is another reason: Bass shakes the cabinet. When your full-range speaker cabinet shakes, that means that your midrange drivers and your tweeter drivers are shaking. That is not good. No matter how expertly a speaker cabinet is designed, the woofers will shake it. A better cabinet will shake less -- but it will still shake. When the midrange and the tweeters shake, it results in your sonic image shaking. Imagine your TV vibrating. You would see it. Well, in audio, you hear it. You might not notice it, because it is always there. But once you minimize it... suddenly the music's focus becomes sharper than you have ever heard it before. How is this accomplished?: The pre-amp feeding your amps should have its output go through a quality, passive, high-pass filter. That will lower the amount of bass (maybe by 6 DB) going to your main amps, and lower the amount of bass being produced by your main speakers. Ergo, your main speakers produce less bass, shake less, and you have a better focused sonic image. Additionally, since your amps have less bass to contend with (and bass takes the most effort), your amps will be able to utilize their power mostly for the mids and the highs, and do a better job with those frequencies -- and those are the frequencies that give you the sonic image. So between your amps being relieved of the heavy lifting for deep bass, and your main speakers shaking less, you will have a noticeably better focused sonic image. But you have to be sure that your sub-woofers are accurately filling in the bass that is no longer being handled by your main speakers. That blending is important. Done right, you will be a happy camper.
I thought rule of thumb was to go 10 hZ above lowest point of full range towers, ie: mains go to 45 hZ, so sub crossover set at 55 hZ. I mean if you got mains that go low enough, maybe you’ll have a crossover point of 35 hZ to become non-directional as Paul says, but there’s not too many towers that I know of that extend to 25-35 hZ, they all roll off way before that.
if i buy a subwoofer for sounds that i can't feel, do you think it would be more cost effective to attach audio trandaducers to my chair or couch which can reach to reallynlow frequencies as low as 5hz?
If they produce "messy" bass then it all will be a mess. Even if that bass will be at 100Hz and they will be ported to ampify that 100Hz it will add a mess. . Anyway Pauls said about wideranges which supposed be not messy .
Most say that you can't localize the subwoofers until much higher (80-100 hz or so) so unless your running speakers that outperform the subs in the lower ranges I say run the quality subs higher than 30,50, even 80. Takes the strain of your mains amp as well. Check out you subs claims, bet it claims it can go to 200 or even higher. Also, look at you speaker's claims and take those with a grain of salt.
Funny story, well may be not so funny. I have a pair of KEF 105.3's that I've been listing to for quite a few years, plus a 12" Velodyn Subwoofer. One day for what ever reason I stuck my hand in the port/baffle and to my shock all four bass speakers inside had deteriorated to the point that they were no longer there. All I could think was Man the Velodyn Sub is really something! Long story short I DIY reconed my speakers and frankly speaking the bass that comes out of the KEF 105.3 is so fantastic they sound as good or better then my Velodyn. But still after all that I bought a second Sub for my home theater setup it has definitely made a marked improvement in sound. 🖖
When you set the mains to large it is normal because for the sake of god you can disable the crossover for the speakers set to "large" - in a setup with a subwoofer you NEVER set any speaker to "large" no matter what
I learned this lesson in reverse. I had PSB Stratus Gold full range speakers and the PSB Subsonic 7 which was the 15" sub that could be paired with the Golds. Boy did they kick ass on the right music. The wife factor was not good so I sold them. Now have a pair of B&W nautilus 805's and a B&W PV1D sub. Ok, I'm not suffering but it's not the same.
The easiest way to set up a sub is too put it next to a front speaker and turn the volume of the sub until you hear the bass seeming to come from the main front speakers and set the crossover frequency cut off point on the sub at 80 Hz. If you use an AVR, set your speakers to large if they are floor standing ones and all frequencies to 80 hz including what they call LFE. And please don't buy subs made in China. Don't buy anything made in China for companies in western countries.. They are made to a cost. They won't last . Buy products made locally, or made in Japan, Malaysia, Taiwan and South Korea.
First you don't manually adjust subwoofer volumes in 2022 and second setting the mains to large would be idiotic because than you can turn off the subwoofer for two channel sources because large means no crossover at all unless you have a idiotic setting to double the bass which makes no sense
you dont need LR subs as sub bass is omni directional, you place your sub just about any where in a room and point it anywhere; but right up the middle is it's best placment. Bass is felt rahter than heard and if sub bass modulates too much left to right it feels nasty. Sub sonics also tend to put one to sleep, and now you know why you nod off. haha Also, a three way system is better if there is a crossover for the sub as it lessens the work by the woofer in the mains and prevents masking subs masking the mids by a wide swinging signal driving the speaker
I disagree some... If you can localize a sub with a 24dB/oct roll off at 40 hz you are talking about a single sub out side of main speakers and probably running to hot. You can go much much higher in frequency if you run a pair of subs in each corner, easy up to 80-100 hz. Bass up to +100 hz is normally mixed in mono so a pair of subs will make bass coming from dead center... However, a full range speaker has more punch than a book shelf at 100 hz to be able to meet up with subs. The real question is this one: Subwoofers needs EQ to tame room mods and you don´t want main speakers to be mixed in this region. If you are serious about clean bass you need to set a higher cut off between subs and mains (80-100 hz) and run, as an example, miniDSP and REW to the subs and a high pass to the mains even if the mains are "full range" capable. I run 4x15" front and 2x12" subs rear, all sealed and of course take the load of my mains, full range Martin Logans & Magnepans... But, hey, this is not Hi-Fi... No this principle is a known concept from the wide market in home cinema where there is progression in this subject. Just saying...
@@Harald_Reindl You place subwoofers in corners (if you are interested in warm/deep extension/less distortion), of course not speakers - Period. EQ on subwoofers is always a must if you don´t like boomy/one note bass. But hey, I only have a couple of decades of practice in "Hi-Fi" so why bother...
@@martinlindberg1983 and if you have a brain you simply can't place subwoofers in the corners because there is membrane absorption from floor to ceiling
"IMHO" there won't be any real progress in home audio until we shift from 2-channel to the usual Left-Right-Center configuration. Center might be better as 2 channels with a little separation as many online presentation -- e.g. duets -- feature two "leads". As long as the "mastering" process insists on "mixing" the signals into the 2 channel form distortion is inevitable. But sound is better when the "lead" is clear. This will involve dropping the "stereo" format and switching to multi-channel. Blue-Ray provides up to 8 but that may be excessive. We have to consider the cost of speakers and amps -- as well as the space required. I don't think "surround sound" is the answer for music presentation: music presentation should model off live stage set-ups where the left-right-center layout is often used. This puts the listener in the audience -- rather than in the 'situation' as would be appropriate to a gaming setup. For four channel two integrated stereo amps could be used and these could be fed from existing computer sound cards which are usually in 5.1 or 7.1 format. Source media could be modified blue-ran or streaming.
As long as you don't move and live alone - when you don't sit at the perfect position the image with 3 speakers get noticeable more damaged as a good stereo setup - and you can mix whatever you want as long you want don't understand how music is recorded to begin with
Nonsense - a subwoofer with a DSP gives you much better control to avoid room modes - no matter what main speakers you have the perfect position for them is in most cases not the perfect position for low frequency sources
@@Harald_Reindl Hi Harald - my company (sbitav) installs high end audio all over the world - so I disagree, in my vast experience using a full range speaker with subs is messy and quite ridiculous - there's a reason why full range speakers are made
@@StephenBrennanGuitar when you don't manage to get a subwoofer clean and transparent into the system you shouldn't talk about "high quality" - fact is when done right you solve a ton of room acoustic problems with perfect timing and phase
@@Harald_Reindl I don't follow you. We install a lot of high end systems i.e well specified, often very expensive speakers and amplifiers - for stereo music listening adding subs has never worked - only complicated and confused the overall sound. For home theatre of course - subs away.
@@StephenBrennanGuitar then don't follow me - fact is my subwoofer for music works perfectly with a Antimode DSP and fixes room issues which already 1300 lites of membrane absorbers can't fully fix
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Great way to explain why your speakers should be full range🤯👌
Sub woofers can also ease the strain on older speakers. I have a n old pair of Thiel CS 3.5''s. Way back when I bought them, I remember the idea with those was that a sub woofer (or woofers) would not be necessary, because the Thiels had what they called electronic bass equalizers that compensated for the non-linear bass response you would naturally get from their 10" woofers. But as soon as they had a few years on them, the woofers would bottom out at times during loud low frequencies. The cone suspensions were obviously getting weaker, and to save the woofers from death, I bought subwoofers to take up the strain. It seems to have worked out pretty much perfectly- some fussing and adjusting initially, but now I can have my window rattling bass when I want it, without worrying about maybe seeing my CS 3.5 woofer voice coils shooting through the grill cloth and hitting me in the chest.
My ageing Wharfedale MFM-5's have amazing bass response even at very low levels and fills the soundstage despite being in front of the room!
Thanks Paul very helpful
Great explanation, I always struggle with crossover settings and found by accident that at the 30hz or so they blend in seamlessly.
seeing your videos is a pleasure!
Great as always
I used to have the Klipsch corner loading flagship with the 15's in the bottom. Normally 15's aren't that fast with response and clarity but those were great. Usually larger subs 12 to 18 inch more suited for home theater applications for long deep extensions with effects. For audio systems and listening to music the array of 8 to 10's seem to deliver fast and powerful bass. If you use separate bass along with speaker if it's too large and too slow if will throw off the overall sound of the system with the main speakers even if you can position it separately. So the separate sub needs to be just as quick and responsive as the main speakers do for symmetry of sound. I am not an expert just what I have seen and heard over decades of trying different things.
What you said is absolutely correct.
This was so interesting. Thanks!
Yes - it helps. Thank you very much .-)
Hi Paul, I have full range tower speakers that go down to 35Hz and I added a powered sub to start from 45Hz down. And you definitely can hear a difference when it’s on but you can’t localize sub.
You mean your main speakers go LOWER than your subwoofer? How bizarre!
Enjoy - th-cam.com/video/-U3XW6TV9zI/w-d-xo.html
@@SpiritualPsychotherapyServices reread my comment, the sub kick’s in at 45Hz. And the sub will go down to 20Hz. So it’s only working from 45Hz to 20Hz. And my towers will go to 35Hz. I love the way it sounds✌🏼
Often people just don’t have enough amplification to get lower bass from their huge full range speakers. Weak sources also can be a problem.
...or weak design!!!! th-cam.com/video/-U3XW6TV9zI/w-d-xo.html
Crossing over to the subs at 60hz is absolutely fine. The wavelength at 60 Hz is around about 18 feet so very omnidirectional.
Violently agree , crossing over to a sub at 30 Hz is BS . Even 80 Hz is fine .Stilll more than 4 meters of wavelenght
Its not BS, surely you guys understand that everyone doesn't see or hear the identically.
I can easily localise my sub crossed at 80hz, and I have a small room. I HAD TO cross over at 40hz to not be able to localise it.
Just because you personally aren't able to, doesn't mean the rest of us can't.
Like an old school mechanic who could tune a car by ear, I can't hear what they heard but that doesn't negate the scientific fact that the tiny sounds they worked around exist.
The absolute fact is that even though lower frequency sound waves are omnidirectional and large, doesn't mean both ears are hit with the wave simultaneously, our ears and brains are great at "timing" i mean we can detect 16,000 or more tiny vibrations per second. One ear will detect it first.
Whether or not you can pick up on it is be decided by many things... first and foremost is your own ability another is room size or shape...
Ask yourself, if someone put a subwoofer playing a 30hz tone on one side of field, and you stood in the centre of that field could you localise the sound source even though its such a low sound... ofcourse you can.
@@nicholasgilbert4227 if you can localise the sub crossed over at 80 HZ it means your sub is producing too much distortion or too much port noise. Is the port on the front or the back?
@@kyron42 You can't say that as an absolute without any data, furthermore i don't jave distortion as your describing and its sealed.
The way you seem to be thinking is that bellow a magical number/frequency localising instantly drops. Thats NOT how it works. It gets increasingly difficult to localise as you lower frequency or shrink your room size, but its not as if at 81hz it can be localised but at 80hz its impossible - its gradual. Same with high frequencies, its not as if we can hear 19,999hz but not 20,001hz.
As I said, you can't deny that you could EASILY pinpoint a sub plating a 30z tone in an open field. That fact alone proves my point.
Look, i"m not saying that to your ears in your room 80hz can be localised, i'm saying that doesn't represent any and all situations. I'm saying with my ears and brain (only half of what you interpret as sound comes from your ears, your brain plays a massive role in interpretation too) in my room with its acoustics i can certainly localise it and even sometimes I assume because of phasing I can localise 60hz crossover, and that's not to say I'm super special by any means, but it is to say it proves that there is the possibility in the right environment... etc etc. Its not an absolute.
@@nicholasgilbert4227 also they could be cabinet resonances giving it away. Have you done a blind test?
i had studio monitors that can only do 50hz, and while working on a song i noticed i couldn't hear the lowest note on a bass part, and it really pissed me off, picked up an energy eps150 specifically because it had a built in crossover and because it had a continuous phase adjustment pot, great subwoofer though, really cleared up my other speaker's lows too
I have some great full range floor standers, but a terrible room mode between 50-100hz. So i bought a sub and did the sub crawl and found right next to the couch worked best, but i also had to dial the sub crossover upto 100hz to fill in that massive null in the 50-100hz region. It sounds way better tho and im getting the bass impact i was missing. Luckily for me i also cant localise where the sub is. Yes 100hz is too high :(- its all a compromise with my room.
this video talks about good general rules, stereo hifi with one subwoofer.
when you get two subwoofers with stereo signal you can use them in more ways with better results with larger or smaller speakers.
as an example if you have small speakers with only a single 5" midwoofer and then add a 15" subwoofer, then there a "hole" near the overlap where the sub plays it sounds big and powerful and the lower part of the small speaker it sounds weak.
to solve this you need stereo subwoofers to be able to cross them over higher, 120hz to 200hz, preferably with dsp to get a highpass to mains.
After I found my end-game loudspeakers, aDs 910s, I placed my two 12" subs ( SVS and Hsu Research ) in with them and while the 910s go down to 25htz in-room, the subs gave me the solid impact I craved while letting the sublime bass from the speakers fill the room. I couldn't be more pleased with the results.
Well explained 👏 like a chill basshead version of the great Mr Roger's 👍 😅 no offense just the vibe I got 👌
Having a small speaker trying to produce sub bass when it's poorly designed for it does not help overall bass performance thus it is often better to use active cross-over when adding a subwoofer for optimum (lowest distortion) sub bass performance.
But, when you get the design right, and the placement right .... th-cam.com/video/-U3XW6TV9zI/w-d-xo.html
From prunedale?
Sounds like a "regular " guy 😎😋
If we provide as much music as possible though main wideranges there is also another advantage. That is because different locations of both always create phase no cooperation - the lower frequency of taking over is , the longer is acoustic wave and those differences counted in inches affect phase less.
That's what a DSP is for - timing/phase/volume
Ayyyye, Prunedale has no prunes but we got lovely nature all around and we’re a hop and skip away from everything the central coast has to offer :)
That's what I did for my Klipsch R15PM bookshelf speakers. Invested in the speakers and a good DAC, then I spent 100 bucks on a cheap Polk Audio 10 inch sub. I'm poor, and I have a small room, so that's what I went with. The subwoofer compliments the speakers and makes things sound just a little bit fuller.
At what point in frequency we should crossover full range speakers and subwoofers? Through soft controls on pre output level
Steve, I have : Sonoc full range pasive speakers , sounds amazing, but I'm confused with all new system on the market, active speakers, mine is more than 20 years solid tested audio, should I retired or keep it what is the cons and pros.?
Very helpful. I just got a pair of Rel’s and have full-range PMC’s and was trying to figure out the frequency settings. Thanks
Subwoofers can take the load off of the smaller woofers and allow them to play bass more clearly. Great for extreme metal genres.
I have a pair of subs flanking my listening position firing directly into it on both sides. Nearfield subs is the way to go.
I also have a nearfield sub. I see no reason to have two?
@@WWeiss-nv5vz having two allows you to keep the level of both a little lower than a single sub which in turn lowers distortion.
It depends also on an individual's ears, at what frequency that they can actually start localizing a specific frequency. I personally can immediately directionally localize any frequency above about 40Hz, but some people might not be quite as sensitive to that as I am, so to an "average" listener, (if there even is such a thing), they might be just fine with a sub crossed over as high as even 60-80Hz, so it all ultimately depends on personal taste.
In my own system my main tower speakers can easily do 30Hz, they even have significant output at 20-25Hz in my room, so I cross my subwoofers over at 30Hz, with them augmenting mostly only below that point, and it sounds awesome to my ears, very powerful and clean bass, but not too "boomy" or overwhelming... and for my system that is all that is needed...
Whatever setup and settings in your own system that sound the best to your own ears is all that really matters... and each individual and each stereo system and listening room is different, so it's all relative. There's NO specific "set" numbers, values, or frequencies that work for every situation and everyone's individual listening preferences... You just have to experiment with your system setup and room layout and control settings until you find what works best for you.
I have a pair of B&W 804s with two B&W subs, 15” and 12”. The 804s have a frequency response of 38 hz at the low end so I’ve adjusted the 15” to cross over at 50 hz and the 12” at 60 hz. Then let Audyssey take it from there for room correction. No complaints for 90% of everything I listen to, however some tracks require elevation or declination. I’m content.
Wow great info, I love to learn from people who know about these things. I have gotten more involved in hifi recently I have learned quite a bit but I love when I learn something new details like this. These little tricks are essential to achieve better sound from your speakers. Thank you and I like how you explain everything very well Paul.
Hi Paul, how to connect 2 sub woofer to my stereo power amplifier?
Wow, I never knew that. My sub has a large range, maybe even above 60hz. I'll aim to fix that
In my room I have a Rel T/5i behind me to the side. The low bass appears to come from the p3esr's in the front of me.
Usually to the side walls is where my Subs work best or at each end of my couch (seating position) when I had more room... Corners never worked for me especially when using the Home Theater…
No speakers belong in the corner and the crap which uses room gain and so should be placed near a wall can't provide a clean output by design
@@Harald_Reindl Wrong, Klipsch made Corner Cabinets in the 60’s that are 90° angle to fit in the corners and may even still make them today.. My 90 yr. old Audiophile friend uses them with his Scott & Custom Marantz Tube Amplifiers & they blow away many speakers up to 4 grand easy.. They are collector items, are about 28” high with a 15” woofer and weigh close to 80lbs. each.. 100s of pairs were sold..Look it up.. You must be a newbie.. I’m 68 and wish he’d sell them to me👍 All depends on your room but most every room has corners😂😂.. Too each his own, right? If you get to listen to a pair, it’s guaranteed you’ll change your mind✅ Plus there are other companies who make speakers specifically for corners, just as they do for ceilings, walls, etc., Even my Original Mach Ones sound absolutely eargazmic when in the corners slightly angled 👍
@@meutubedou I know that crap but it's crap because you can't trick physics - room gain is always dirty - yeah you have a fat and big bass but from a quality level it's shit
@@Harald_Reindl Go away Troll.. You prove you know diddly about Audio …
My main speakers goes down to 26 Hz (-6db) but I still have a "high" cross over of 70 Hz. I had 60 Hz earlier but I don't know why I changed it to 70 Hz.
30? I thought it was 80hz. Though i usually set them where i'll get maximum output out off sub & high together.
I would say for a pair of subs the reason is not really the localization of the source, but still the same thing, the room modes for the intended listening position. This is because for the 40-50hz room modes the listening position is dominant. So you might well get away with smaller mains if your room and listening positions are good. Though it is hard to know beforehand. Position of subs affects more for the 70-90hz room modes, but most audiophile speakers will hit that. For those modes, it is a question of living space arrangements and WAF. Can you put the subs in the optimal position. Localization issues can happen in the 60-80hz region when the integration is done poorly, and of course with things booming and rattling. But with pair of subs it is much easier to get it right and also easier to use smaller mains. For a single sub, a low crossover point makes it easier to get right. Though you will spend money on those speakers where subs and bookshelfs are not that expensive. Often unrecognized thing is that with dual subs, you can put the speakers where they image good, put the subs where they look ok and then play with DSP and delays, and get almost certainly a solution for a single listening position.
30Hz? I've never heard them play source with that content.
I've tried locating 80Hz in a room before and found it pretty difficult.
As a side, after looking at some very old, large cabinet radio's, and noting the very large drivers sometimes used - assumed to be to try and get better bottom end, I thought I'd replicate it, I had a 14 inch driver tossed my way, so I put it in a box (this is to get 'old school' radio sound, not HiFi as such). Bad idea, whilst the old school speakers just rolled off at the top, this one did not, if broke up badly.
Oh well, nothing ($$$) lost. Anyone want a free 14" driver in a not so great box?
@0:50 "...and one would say you don't need a sub -- and in many cases, you don't"
But you want sub-woofers, always.
Aside from your explanation, there is another reason:
Bass shakes the cabinet. When your full-range speaker cabinet shakes, that means that your midrange drivers and your tweeter drivers are shaking. That is not good.
No matter how expertly a speaker cabinet is designed, the woofers will shake it. A better cabinet will shake less -- but it will still shake.
When the midrange and the tweeters shake, it results in your sonic image shaking.
Imagine your TV vibrating. You would see it. Well, in audio, you hear it. You might not notice it, because it is always there. But once you minimize it... suddenly the music's focus becomes sharper than you have ever heard it before.
How is this accomplished?:
The pre-amp feeding your amps should have its output go through a quality, passive, high-pass filter. That will lower the amount of bass (maybe by 6 DB) going to your main amps, and lower the amount of bass being produced by your main speakers. Ergo, your main speakers produce less bass, shake less, and you have a better focused sonic image.
Additionally, since your amps have less bass to contend with (and bass takes the most effort), your amps will be able to utilize their power mostly for the mids and the highs, and do a better job with those frequencies -- and those are the frequencies that give you the sonic image.
So between your amps being relieved of the heavy lifting for deep bass, and your main speakers shaking less, you will have a noticeably better focused sonic image.
But you have to be sure that your sub-woofers are accurately filling in the bass that is no longer being handled by your main speakers. That blending is important. Done right, you will be a happy camper.
I thought rule of thumb was to go 10 hZ above lowest point of full range towers, ie: mains go to 45 hZ, so sub crossover set at 55 hZ. I mean if you got mains that go low enough, maybe you’ll have a crossover point of 35 hZ to become non-directional as Paul says, but there’s not too many towers that I know of that extend to 25-35 hZ, they all roll off way before that.
if i buy a subwoofer for sounds that i can't feel, do you think it would be more cost effective to attach audio trandaducers to my chair or couch which can reach to reallynlow frequencies as low as 5hz?
skip the middle man and just use a helmet
but.. if main speakers are not in the best bass position but they go low, would they mess up the bass response then?
If they produce "messy" bass then it all will be a mess. Even if that bass will be at 100Hz and they will be ported to ampify that 100Hz it will add a mess. . Anyway Pauls said about wideranges which supposed be not messy .
I'm curious, as an audiophile how is the stereo in your car?
Stock Tesla unless he's changed it.
Most say that you can't localize the subwoofers until much higher (80-100 hz or so) so unless your running speakers that outperform the subs in the lower ranges I say run the quality subs higher than 30,50, even 80. Takes the strain of your mains amp as well. Check out you subs claims, bet it claims it can go to 200 or even higher. Also, look at you speaker's claims and take those with a grain of salt.
🙋👍❤️👌
Funny story, well may be not so funny. I have a pair of KEF 105.3's that I've been listing to for quite a few years, plus a 12" Velodyn Subwoofer. One day for what ever reason I stuck my hand in the port/baffle and to my shock all four bass speakers inside had deteriorated to the point that they were no longer there. All I could think was Man the Velodyn Sub is really something! Long story short I DIY reconed my speakers and frankly speaking the bass that comes out of the KEF 105.3 is so fantastic they sound as good or better then my Velodyn. But still after all that I bought a second Sub for my home theater setup it has definitely made a marked improvement in sound. 🖖
BASS FREAKS👍😎😁 BUDGET AND WAF 😞😞😍😍😍
When I set my speakers to full range, my subwoofer stops working. Am I doing something wrong?
When you set the mains to large it is normal because for the sake of god you can disable the crossover for the speakers set to "large" - in a setup with a subwoofer you NEVER set any speaker to "large" no matter what
For dogs sake! Don’t ever put your glasses on a chair!
Be cool to compile a list of all mainstream tower speakers out there that require no subs.
Lets just start with the Klipsch RF7-III,
Virtually all the speakers they made in the 60s, 70s and 80s
I learned this lesson in reverse. I had PSB Stratus Gold full range speakers and the PSB Subsonic 7 which was the 15" sub that could be paired with the Golds. Boy did they kick ass on the right music. The wife factor was not good so I sold them. Now have a pair of B&W nautilus 805's and a B&W PV1D sub. Ok, I'm not suffering but it's not the same.
I would say from many car stereos out there, you only need something resembling a tweeter; perhaps two.
subs destroy timing
The real problem is the silly little speakers they sell you these days
Interesting views , but thats normal here.
The easiest way to set up a sub is too put it next to a front speaker and turn the volume of the sub until you hear the bass seeming to come from the main front speakers and set the crossover frequency cut off point on the sub at 80 Hz. If you use an AVR, set your speakers to large if they are floor standing ones and all frequencies to 80 hz including what they call LFE. And please don't buy subs made in China. Don't buy anything made in China for companies in western countries.. They are made to a cost. They won't last . Buy products made locally, or made in Japan, Malaysia, Taiwan and South Korea.
First you don't manually adjust subwoofer volumes in 2022 and second setting the mains to large would be idiotic because than you can turn off the subwoofer for two channel sources because large means no crossover at all unless you have a idiotic setting to double the bass which makes no sense
I could never get a sub to work for me
For the kind of music I play
Always seems slow
You need a DSP for phase/timing
@@Harald_Reindl DSP creates more problems than it solves; subs are just as bad; Buy proper main speakers is the answer
@@johnholmes912 depending on the room that answer is idiotic - period! the problem with you audiofools is that you know little to nothing
Sub < 35Hz
Subvibes ✌️😎
you dont need LR subs as sub bass is omni directional, you place your sub just about any where in a room and point it anywhere; but right up the middle is it's best placment. Bass is felt rahter than heard and if sub bass modulates too much left to right it feels nasty. Sub sonics also tend to put one to sleep, and now you know why you nod off. haha Also, a three way system is better if there is a crossover for the sub as it lessens the work by the woofer in the mains and prevents masking subs masking the mids by a wide swinging signal driving the speaker
hmmm. the standard is 80hz. that's the built in crossover point for all the room analyzing and optimization software built into today's equipment
I disagree some... If you can localize a sub with a 24dB/oct roll off at 40 hz you are talking about a single sub out side of main speakers and probably running to hot. You can go much much higher in frequency if you run a pair of subs in each corner, easy up to 80-100 hz. Bass up to +100 hz is normally mixed in mono so a pair of subs will make bass coming from dead center... However, a full range speaker has more punch than a book shelf at 100 hz to be able to meet up with subs. The real question is this one: Subwoofers needs EQ to tame room mods and you don´t want main speakers to be mixed in this region. If you are serious about clean bass you need to set a higher cut off between subs and mains (80-100 hz) and run, as an example, miniDSP and REW to the subs and a high pass to the mains even if the mains are "full range" capable. I run 4x15" front and 2x12" subs rear, all sealed and of course take the load of my mains, full range Martin Logans & Magnepans... But, hey, this is not Hi-Fi... No this principle is a known concept from the wide market in home cinema where there is progression in this subject. Just saying...
You don't place speakers in the corners - period
@@Harald_Reindl You place subwoofers in corners (if you are interested in warm/deep extension/less distortion), of course not speakers - Period. EQ on subwoofers is always a must if you don´t like boomy/one note bass. But hey, I only have a couple of decades of practice in "Hi-Fi" so why bother...
@@martinlindberg1983 if you are an idiot you place subwoofers in corners - walls are the enemy of sound especially of bass when you care about quality
@@martinlindberg1983 and if you have a brain you simply can't place subwoofers in the corners because there is membrane absorption from floor to ceiling
I don’t like too much bass ,
"IMHO" there won't be any real progress in home audio until we shift from 2-channel to the usual Left-Right-Center configuration. Center might be better as 2 channels with a little separation as many online presentation -- e.g. duets -- feature two "leads". As long as the "mastering" process insists on "mixing" the signals into the 2 channel form distortion is inevitable.
But sound is better when the "lead" is clear.
This will involve dropping the "stereo" format and switching to multi-channel.
Blue-Ray provides up to 8 but that may be excessive. We have to consider the cost of speakers and amps -- as well as the space required.
I don't think "surround sound" is the answer for music presentation: music presentation should model off live stage set-ups where the left-right-center layout is often used. This puts the listener in the audience -- rather than in the 'situation' as would be appropriate to a gaming setup.
For four channel two integrated stereo amps could be used and these could be fed from existing computer sound cards which are usually in 5.1 or 7.1 format. Source media could be modified blue-ran or streaming.
As long as you don't move and live alone - when you don't sit at the perfect position the image with 3 speakers get noticeable more damaged as a good stereo setup - and you can mix whatever you want as long you want don't understand how music is recorded to begin with
This is so ridiculous - if you were to use subwoofers you wouldn't use speakers like the fr30's and vice versa.
Nonsense - a subwoofer with a DSP gives you much better control to avoid room modes - no matter what main speakers you have the perfect position for them is in most cases not the perfect position for low frequency sources
@@Harald_Reindl Hi Harald - my company (sbitav) installs high end audio all over the world - so I disagree, in my vast experience using a full range speaker with subs is messy and quite ridiculous - there's a reason why full range speakers are made
@@StephenBrennanGuitar when you don't manage to get a subwoofer clean and transparent into the system you shouldn't talk about "high quality" - fact is when done right you solve a ton of room acoustic problems with perfect timing and phase
@@Harald_Reindl I don't follow you. We install a lot of high end systems i.e well specified, often very expensive speakers and amplifiers - for stereo music listening adding subs has never worked - only complicated and confused the overall sound. For home theatre of course - subs away.
@@StephenBrennanGuitar then don't follow me - fact is my subwoofer for music works perfectly with a Antimode DSP and fixes room issues which already 1300 lites of membrane absorbers can't fully fix