Christian Indoctrination in Homeschooling
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 มิ.ย. 2024
- The number of kids being homeschooled today is more than double of what it was four years ago, and nobody is making the rules. While the religious right is convinced that political indoctrination is rampant in public schools, we take a look at where teaching is actually flying off the rails.
Huge, huge thanks to Blueland for sponsoring this episode. Get 15% off a cuter, more sustainable way to clean at blueland.com/fruity.
Read Christina’s and Aaron’s Washington Post story: www.washingtonpost.com/educat...
Find more of A Bit Fruity: / abitfruitypod
Find more of Matt: / mattxiv
Produced by Samantha Land: / samalander
Edited by Justin Bretter: / fieldsobriety
Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
3:03 The HSLDA
7:16 Christina's and Aaron's Education
14:56 Requirements for a Husband
20:42 Parents are God
27:00 Abuse
33:13 Blueland!
34:50 Political Grooming
37:45 Giving Birth is a Competitive Sport
41:38 A Pseudo-Arranged Marriage
49:30 "Breaking a Child's Will"
52:07 Deciding to Turn Away
55:18 Sending Kids to Public Schools
1:03:51 Fighting for Reform
1:07:00 Holding on to Faith
1:08:23 Outro - บันเทิง
As a black homeschool graduate, the piece about black parents correctly diagnosing the unfitness of regular public education for black kids is important to emphasize because it does complicate this super simplistic idea that people have of us.
To be fair, that is the mindset of most parents that decide to homeschool their kids
@@hanatemonstas4485 yeah but the distinction is that some parents correctly identify the issues in public education, while others like ultra conservative evangelical parents don’t…
If I may, I'm really curious -- in your experience, where is the problem most noted? All mainstream schools, majority black schools, majority white/latinx schools, certain states/areas, etc.? Please don't answer if the question is too pointed. I'm asking out of ignorance and lack of understanding and I don't want to be crude or derogatory.
Yes this is a very important point and if I ever find myself in a position where I’m speaking to the issues around home schooling I’d feel like I was white washing if I didn’t mention it. I’m white with distant Métis ancestry and so I feel like there may be a similar phenomenon among Indigenous parents, caregivers and students, though I’m not sure.
I get the idea that curriculum policing might negatively affect that, but home schooling can easily be used to isolate from possible intervention to prevent abuse.
The thing is that the scenario of history I think the proper way to address these issues is a therapeutic approach rather than a curricular approach. You'd likely receive more beneficial outcomes if home schooled children were required to receive psychiatric check ups. The only issue I could see is maybe narrowing the access to homeschooling, but homeschooling already has a pretty high entry point.
As a German this is such a wild concept.. like your children get taken away from you if you stopped letting them go to school
What about disabled kids who don't fit formal schooling
@@user-jn8wi3vf8qThey go to more informal schools (in Bavaria, don't know about the other German states) or get a "Schulbegleitung" paid for by social services alias an adult whose sole purpose is making sure that particular child has their educational needs met. My friend odes that.
@@user-jn8wi3vf8qI'm not German but still European - in some countries you have specific schools for disabled people and in some other countries disabled kids are part of the class but have "extra" teachers as support. In a public school you'll have disabled kids being split among the different classes so children can learn about diversity and inclusion from a young age
not so fun fact: during the pandemic a lot of germans moved to austria because homeschooling is unfortunately legal here
Of course I don't mean that homeschooling in Europe doesn't exist: for example, in high school I had a classmate who got cancer and she was homeschooled while she was treated, and the school worked very close to the family in order to make sure her education would be sound and she would be able to get a high school diploma. I think this is the norm in Europe
The "don't trust your mind" aspect is so abusive and scary.
Agreed. Yes, the human mind can be a dangerous place, but if you have a bad feeling about a potentially dangerous situation then you should avoid it
That's just a conservative Christian thing in general. I grew up in a family of Jehovah's Witnesses and they were big on this. In a world where humans are broken, imperfect creatures who need to return to sky daddy who knows what's best for us,of course your own way of thinking about things is probably just wrong.
Yes - it's insidious and still affects me to this day - I was not AS forcibly indoctrinated or sheltered as these two people, and the branch of Christianity I grew up with wasn't quite as extreme, but the basis of mine was inerrancy and infallibility of the bible, to be taken quite literally - and to be able to actually believe that you are taught all kinds of logical fallacies instead of critical thinking skills, like circular (begging the question) reasoning, and when all else fails it boils down to "this is true because I say so - don't worry, you don't even have to think about it, just have faith and everything will be okay".
But you also learn other crazy things such as "thinking about sin is as bad as committing sin" - basically that thought-crime is real. Couple that with Hell being real, and a place you'll go if your belief is not perfect and unquestioning, you can possibly see how psychologically damaging that can be - essentially "if you are wrong, something bad will happen to you." That is an unconscious association my brain made and I've realized recently it still makes that association in certain situations...
Long after I stopped believing in hell or anything else religious, I would find myself in a near-panic if I'm watching or reading someone's very persuasive but NONSENSE opinions (for example peddlars of pseudoscience) - it starts a worry-cycle to see someone so absolutely CERTAIN of their opinion even if it seems so obviously wrong, and I almost automatically assume that I must have missed something, because I am confused yet they are so certain, and the pavlovian response is fear because my brain made the "if you are wrong something bad will happen" association. It's been wild to unpack all this recently ...
“lean not on your own understanding” is the verse. it’s all I got as an answer when I started questioning
I was homeschooled in the 90s-early 00's, and this is what my daily schedule looked like: It was about 20% legitimate school subjects, 20% Bible study/rote memorization or independant reading of Christian-approved books or poetry, and 60% unpaid manual labor. And that was during the week. On weekends I often had another 8 hours or so that I was required to do yard work in 100 degree weather (SoCal), or assist my dad on some type of home improvement project. (I also was trained on what to say and do if Child Protective Services ever showed up at our door, and was taught that it was made up of evil monsters whose sole purpose in life was to destroy families and persecute Christians).
Because of my father's religious fundamentalism and anti-government ideology, I missed out on most of the things that other kids my age took for granted. I was pulled out of kindergarten and isolated from my peers, supposedly to keep me from being "brainwashed" and to "protect my innocence" from the evils of the secular world.
In reality, I had my childhood stolen from me. I was isolated from my peers, forcibly indoctrinated into extreme right wing ideology and forced to do an adult's share of manual labor (to "build character"). And then there was the near constant physical and psychological abuse, which I won't get into.
If there had been any oversight whatsoever, my father would've been in jail for aggravated assault, criminal negligence, violating child labor laws, and several other felony offenses (and that's just for how he treated ME, let alone my mom and younger siblings). Instead, thanks to the HSLDA, I was alone and at the mercy of an abusive extremist for my entire childhood, the long-term psychological effects of which I am still trying to recover from at the age of 33.
I know that homeschooling can be good for some kids, and that there are plenty of parents who are both qualified to educate their kids, and would never intentionally hurt them. But in reality, the GOOD parents aren't the ones who need the type of legal muscle that lobbying groups like the HSLDA was created to provide.
They (and other right wing lobbies like the Alliance Defending "Freedom") are DIRECTLY responsible for enabling countless abusers, religious zealots and would-be terrorists. The policies they have gotten passed are made exclusively to provide cover and protection for people who should never be allowed NEAR a child, let alone to have one under their legal custody with zero supervision.
The direct results of these policies speak for themselves. I'm lucky to have gotten away from my father when I was still a teenager, and was able to develop my own worldview, despite the years of indoctrination. Many are not so lucky.
Many of the homeschoolers of my generation have grown up to become, at best, socially stunted, sexually repressed introverts with untreated mental health issues and massive gaps in their education (like myself). Just as often, they become anti-social, anti-intellectual zealots who are susceptible to conspiratorial thinking, driven by deep-seated fear and misplaced resentment of anyone they perceive as an outsider (this is the intended result). Which is how we get things like qAnon, and what happened on Jan. 6th.
Children are NOT property. "Parental rights" SHOULD NOT take precedence over child safety and welfare. And good, loving, responsible homeschooling parents who truly want the best for their kids DO NOT REQUIRE the type of _carte blanche_ legal protections that the HSLDA gets paid to provide. That organization, and many other right-wing think tanks and legal organizations, exist to protect the worst people.
This is America. Land of the free. You can go to a communist country and fit right in. Best of luck!
You are so strong to be able to get through what you went through. I hope you find your peace and joy and I hope Home schooling regulation is passed eventually.
Check out the documentary Leaving Jesus ❤
I homeschooled my kids 😢 Not a day goes by that I don’t regret it. My husband and I used to be conservative xtians but luckily we woke up from the brainwashing. now my youngest is 17 and in public school and doing fantastic.
Glad to hear everything worked out in the end. Cute dog
The amount of work you had to do to detach yourself from these systems must've been gargantuan. I'm sure your kids will be thankful for the effort.
Wow!!! What was it that changed your beliefs? I know that's not easy. Good for you all!
@@beafraid5467 yes this is huge! They've done the thing that SOOOOOOO many people wish their parents had done
Wait until you find out what happens in public schools...
It’s crazy how much Christian fundamentalists have taken over homeschool communities, even outside the US. My mom tried to homeschool me for a couple years when I was little and even in Canada, every homeschool group was full of fundie families that didn’t want to talk to her and didn’t want their kids to associate with me because of our “worldly values” or whatever. We weren’t even atheists, just the wrong kind of Christian. I ended up going to public school again after two years because finding any kind of socializing opportunities for me were basically impossible.
This is one of the hardest things for my family to deal with as homeschoolers in a very red state.
**Taken over**? Fundies have *always* been at the forefront of pushing for the legal right to home school their kids. When was it NOT full of fundies???
@@lerualnaej5917 I thought it started more as a hippie thing. John Holt wasn't a Christian fundamentalist. I honestly don't know though.
@@MultiBritt08 Sure, he personally wasn't, but most of the parents who were early adopters were. Ray and Dorothy Moore were right behind Holt and published a heck of a lot more aimed at giving parents a roadmap to actually pulling their kids out of school. Holt published more about education from an academic standpoint, the Moores published how-to manuals and curricula starting in the mid '70s. From what I understand, the Moores were SDA and talked about homeschooling at SDA conferences. In '79 James Dobson brought their work to a wider evangelical audience, and HSLDA was founded 4 years after that. Basically, Holt himself wasn't fundie, but the *movement* inspired by him by way of Moore always has been.
Yep. I was a homeschooler in rural Canada for ten years. I wasn't homeschooling for religious reasons, I thought that was wrong although at the time I was religious myself. That was separate for me.
I had to make a group. I put in a lot of effort for ten years to get a community that was just about socializing together and having friends outside of school.
Ever since I put my kids into public school, I've heard the group has been totally taken over and destroyed by conservative christian moms. They were always at the margins but I was in charge of a lot of stuff so they couldn't take over. I tried to make it so that there were activities everyone could participate in, no matter what their personal beliefs. It's hard.
27:24 he's right it is institutionalized. anyone who's up on their fundie knowledge knows about the pearls and "to train up a child" which is a literal textbook on child abuse that is the foundation of a lot of christian fundamentalist family practices
49:48 oh yeah this is 100% the pearls
I have tried to homeschool my neurodivergent son a few times and the options that are available are just so subpar. If you don't have a substantial amount of money, the education your child can get varies wildly. And that goes for public schools too. The disparity in schooling for poor, disabled, kids of color from rich, white kids has been a problem for far too long here.
This is a different thing from the fundamentalist Christian cult that these people were raised in. I was homeschooled because I went to two days of kindergarten and was immediately targeted by the teacher (presumably for being Mexican-American and neurodivergent) My parents had a college education and were actually teachers until my mom quit to take care of me so I turned out fine. I’m 22 and about to wrap up two degrees, I did scholarships such as a study abroad full ride and a NIH research program, and now I’m applying to PhD programs in neuroscience. I wish my parents had prepared me better in STEM topics, and it was hard for me to figure out normal social functioning for the first two years of college(though that may have been in part due to my neurodivergence) but I turned out fine and am living independently
I mean Americas failing education come back to Reagan and the GOP stripping funding from schools because they wanted education to be run like a business. As such they took funding away from schools that underperformed and gave it to the overachievers. This is why schools that need the extra funding dont get it, and big private schools get all the fundimg they need.
I was homeschooled by my Christian Fundamentalist family - this episode resonates so much for me. The isolation, the censoring/brainwashing - all of it. Of course I was queer so it played out a bit differently for me....but....still very resonant. Great episode and an often overlooked issue. Thanks for all you do - you rock!
Big queer internet hugs! I’m so happy you survived.
Same, my childhood in a one hour video lmao
brainwashed is being Queer your just a cop out who makes bad excuses! Previous studies have indicated increased risk of mental disorder symptoms, suicide and substance misuse in lesbian, gay and bisexual (LGB) Romans 13:8-10 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor.Exodus 20:14 gives us the seventh commandment: “You shall not commit adultery.
Same here! You're not alone
Doesn't mean Jesus did anything to you. You can be homeschooled without being isolated and stuff
Im currently homeschooled by evangelical christians. The amount of other homeschooled kids who were pulled out of school for being queer is actually insane.
Sending love and strenght to you
I hope that you can escape this Hell one day.
personally, im homeschooled because i was bullied so harshly in public for being queer. when i see people say schools cater to "the left", i get upset, its not true. never did a teacher try to stop it.
i hope you can get out of your situation too, im glad i was able to get out of mine.
@@elijahisconfusedDepends on the state.
Oh, like me. Except we're not religious...
As I listen to this interview, I am blown away by Aaron and Christina’s story. Sooooo many similarities with ours. My husband stopped believing before me. It all came out during lockdown/2020…we have 4 children. I was like omg how am I going to raise these kids with an unbeliever. It honestly didn’t take me long to just admit to myself I DON’T BELIEVE EITHER!
We are so much closer now. We have a better relationship with our boys now. We can be honest with them. And we are happier.
One of the things I am struggling with now as a mom is mourning my lost youth. I had kids because it was…just what a good Christian wife is supposed to do. I am having to come to terms with the GUILT I feel because I never really was maternal and why did I have so many kids. Dealing with that special awful regret while you adore your children is a hellish kind of guilt. But I am coming to terms with the fact that I can acknowledge my feelings…I still love my family, but I actually wanted something much different for my life.
Ex Christian here too! Re: the guilt and regret of a life not lived, I have found much comfort in the fact that I still have so many years to build the life I want. And after five years, my life looks so much more “me” than I ever dreamed of! Sounds like you are nearing empty nest years, and I have no doubt you will have many opportunities to experiment and make up for lost time. Not that that makes it easy ❤
What a totally made up story.
Why don't you believe?
@@missmelodies52 wait how did you leave
@@yo9979 Why not? Christianity is behind the times and is just a hateful dangerous cult.
I've heard of so many people raised in Christian families/communities that were homeschooled, ending up as adults with a dangerously lacking sex education.
this includes people eschewing their bisexuality or homosexuality in extremely toxic ways, contributing to LGBT violence, to straight up cases of CSA
these were families and communities that worshipped the concept of "Purity" and "Modesty" above all else, completely suppressing any discussion or education on romantic or sexual relationships
It's kind of crazy that many conservative christians declare LGBT ppl as groomers and pedophiles, where it is evidenced that they are comfortable with child abuse existing as long as they are able to keep it out of sight
It's really sad
A good thing given the current trend...
Hell, I went to school and didn’t get taught sex Ed. Everyone else had the internet and learned there, but my family was too poor to get a computer. (Really shows my age haha)
By my and my two sister's choices, we were homeschooled our whole lives until college, and honestly it was the best thing in the world. We had a thriving community of homeschool friends, school friends, activities, getting to do whatever we wanted, getting to learn whatever we wanted. I was queer and undiagnosed (at the time) AUDHD and going to public school probably would’ve been the end of me. I am beyond grateful I had the choice to avoid all the bullying and violence that my local high school was infamous for. Of course, we weren't homeschooled for religious reasons, so obvi that makes a difference (my parents just didn't want us to get untrue garbage shoved down our throats by Republican religious Indiana "educators" and ultimately it was a choice me and my sisters were given. My older sister went to high school when she said she wanted to, but ultimately hated it and dropped out). There's no denying the American education system is fucked and schooling your kids at home for God is fucked too. But it all comes down truthfully to reason and choice and safety. Great video and podcast!!
I had a very similar positive experience being homeschooled! It’s so much more complicated than homeschool bad school good like a lot of people tend to react to conservative homeschoolers with. It’s always a matter of how the kids are being treated and what they’re being taught in either environment
It's just tough because the homeschooling system itself is more prone to abuse than the public schooling system. And even if you had a great experience, there is still a chance that you or your homeschool friends missed out on key educational milestones
@@ea5145I see your point, but I don't see education that way. There are infinite things to learn about the world. Schools are generally so narrow minded (maybe not as much as these people's religious upbringings) I homeschool my kids because I don't want them putting learning in categories and boxes. It's limiting. I want them to really enjoy learning and develop critical thinking skills. Most of my experiences, and my kids' experiences before we started homeschooling, with the public education system were negative.
Homeschooling being allowed for whoever feels like it is one of the things that’s just wild to people not from the US
I think a lot of this stems from Americans generally valuing the "rights of the parents" over the rights of the child. Essentially children are viewed as property of the parent until they turn 18, and can make all kinds of detrimental decisions for the child against the child's wishes.
Likewise, the inability to homeschool one’s own children and be required (for the most part) to be in state school is a very foreign and intimidating concept to Americans.
And yes, while some have bad experiences, and are raise with fundamental Christian values to a detriment, it is much more important to protect the natural rights of reproduction and raise one’s own offspring as they see fit. People complain that kids “could be indoctrinated into a conservative lifestyle” , but that’s the thing about children- they are going to be indoctrinated by the state or their parents. And the idea of state taking forcefully taking over that role is many magnitudes of order more frightening.
They both seem like really genuine nice people and I am so glad that they were able to break out of their indoctrination and do right by their kids and themselves. Very inspirational!
I’ve never seen a podcast touch on educational abuse! Keep it up Matt you’re doing great!
I'm always in awe of people who can break away from harmful ideologies and still find love, meaning and purpose in the world even when it's difficult! (Maybe especially when it's difficult)! Huge respect for Christina and Aaron and thank you to them for sharing their story.
Love wins ♥️
I homeschooled my kiddo for 2nd & 3rd grade; she has ADHD and SPD, we live in a city with a clusterf*cked public school system, and we were wait-listed for the sliding-scale progressive adaptive-learning school we knew she would thrive at. The fact that it was so easy to legally homeschool her with no next to no guidelines was a relief for my spouse and I (we're both neurodiverse and easily overwhelmed by hoop-jumping) - but through a few homeschooler-oriented outside activities (namely the families and kids we met there), we learned just how sideways and whackadoodle things can be when people who really NEED that oversight are able to operate without it. I still think about those kids; it's hard to believe they all made out without some serious scarring.
In my country homeschooling is mostly limited to kids who have difficulty going to school or for kids who find going to school more of a negative impact on their mental health than if they were not to.
Where you from ?
And that is how it should be in America. It should be up to the child when they are old enough, not a decision made for the child for reasons like these people had to go through.
I’m from the UK. My 9 year old brother is home educated because of special education needs. My parents both work and have the means to hire a trained teacher who works with him at home in a classroom. He is slowly integrating into a specialised school, but home education was necessary before now as he is only now learning how to regulate himself and maybe focus better in a classroom environment which was previously too overstimulating for him.
My mom will die a Christian, but during her time as a homeschool coordinator, she had to quit due to the EXTREME religious brainwashing a lot of parents do to their kids.
Really made her depressed and sad and I don’t blame her.
Yeah the religious brainwashing is real. :( I met a little homeschooled kid the other day who thought Christian and Catholic were the only religions in the world
Not me getting an ad for a prayer app before this video about religious trauma
I started homeschooling my trans son in 2020 because before that point I didn’t realize homeschooling was even an option. My son is thriving in homeschool and the decision was entirely his choice. But I can testify that finding high quality secular curriculum is very difficult. The amount of homeschool curriculum that completely rewrites science and history is massive. I’m still glad I’m homeschooling and I’m glad more families that can benefit from homeschooling are considering it as an option. But higher quality homeschool curriculum is still very much needed.
there was a girl I grew up with who was raised extremely religiously as a Jehovah's witness. her mom eventually took her out of public school because she thought the school was indoctrinating her by NOT teaching her religious-based information. She got mad when she read Harry Potter and loved it, because it was "Satanic". I never see her around town and when I do shes is standing next to her mother in a dress down to her ankles and wrists. I dont know her family so i cant judge from outside but part of me feels sad because I remember her having a crush on a girl in elementary school. and i just wonder how real this persona she has is
I was homeschooled my entire life (k-12) in a christian fundamentalist family, however my parents didn't do it for explicitly religious reasons. My two older brothers started in public school, but the oldest one (public school through 4th grade) had autism, and the small town I grew up in didn't have the resources to help him, so my mom decided to just educate us at home. I did receive an explicitly Christian curriculum. However I live in a state that does require grade testing from homeschooling families, and I got into college early (at 15) because I was able to learn at my own fast pace. I did have a long of brainwashing and indoctrination because I didn't have the secular education, and ended up with severe RTS (religious trauma syndrome) that I've had to spend a long time working through. I would never homeschool my kids personally, because while I did receive some benefits from having that education, the lack of a true adolescence has caused me too much trouble as an adult.
Thank you for talking about this. When I was a kid and I did something wrong, even though I wasn't homeschooled, I went to public school, anyway, when I did something wrong my dad would spank me and I was often told by him not to tell any teachers or anything that he hit me or the evil CPS would take us away. And sometimes I wish I had spoken up. But it was scary to think about being taken away from everyone I loved and possibly being separated from my brother in the system. But I'm glad people are debunking spanking and calling it what it is, abuse.
I grew up in similar circumstances. My younger sibling and I are both disabled and my dad would often lose control of his temper and hit us to the point it left bruises. He'd gotten full custody of us at a young age b/c my mom struggled with addiction. I've always seen spanking as abusive b/c no matter what you're still hitting your kid. As much as parents who spank like to say they're in control of their emotions they are not. Spanking is a valve for releasing parental anger/ frustration. My dad would even brag that it was his "right" to hit us. As a kid, I'd heard a lot of horror stories about what happened to kids in the system and at least I knew what to expect at "home"
i know here in Texas that children who become homeschooled literally no longer exist to the state. no one is checking in on them. my older sister homeschools her kids and its so frustrating because they were lacking in a lot of knowledge.
Was homeschooled as a child on a Christian curriculum, my parents were NOT teachers, and I ended up having to teach myself straight from the book. I missed out on A LOT of socialization opportunities, and missed out on new perspectives because the lesson wasn’t taught to me by a teacher. The curriculum was too expensive by the time I was old enough to start high school, and I was finally put in public school. The adjustment period was extremely difficult to go from no socialization to daily socialization, I was weird and got bullied but was too dumb to pick up on it til years later. It has affected me and every part of my life, I’m still learning very basic things from time to time that were not taught to me. I’m grateful to online communities that were there when nobody else was.
Homeschooling COULD be good in theory, but not all parents are teachers, not all parents are good, not all parents should be parents. Isolating children is bad for their development. Isolating what they’re allowed to know, controlling every aspect of their day, molding them into this perfect little soldier for god is the fastest way to get them to go no contact once they’re an adult.
What a great video! Subscribed x 100 (somehow?).
These two are are badass. My parents were raised in the Christian Fundamentalist cult arena. They're both in their 60s and are still healing from it, because they were raised on a constant diet of nothing but fear and hate. I am so lucky they literally met, said "screw this bullshit", cut ties with their families and lived in a car instead of enduring that horror any longer. Because of their bravery my brothers and I got a chance to grow up in a supportive loving home, learning such crazy things like basic human empathy. Thank god, seeing as I'm trans and queer AF...imagine the hell I would've been brought into if they stayed. There needs to be more support for people who escape that nightmare - like my mom and dad - because they often have nothing of their own, so when they escape they're left destitute and aimless.
This couple seems so wholesome and kind. I’m so happy you interviewed them and they’re sharing their experiences.
Thank you so much for this interview. I was homeschooled and was such an obedient kid and young adult. I'm so glad that I taught myself empathy and independence, so when I was in my early twenties and my family started doomsday prepping and going off the deep-end, I began to question and set boundaries. It was so, so hard to walk away from everything I'd ever known. I'd describe it as soul-shattering.
But the trajectory of my life altered, and now I'm able to be myself (I'm genderfluid, transmasc, in a committed relationship with my non-binary partner), and it took me years but I even gave up my christian faith and am happily a humanist. I never thought I'd live the life I'm living now, since I was so enmeshed with my family. But now I have no contact with them, which was such a dramatic shift. Imagine growing up being so "close" to your family, a myriad of memories of reading homeschool books snuggled up on the couch, and so much 1-on-1 time with my mother... and all for what? All with an undercurrent that if I ever broke an unspoken rule or achieved individuality outside of what my parents/community/religion wanted for me, that I'd be outcast and literally tortured forever? And to be so enmeshed with my family (no deeper relationships forged all my life up till the time I went no-contact)... only to now not even have one thing in common with them?
This fundamentalist culture robs families of true connections built on anything beyond the indoctrination and fantasy. There's no unconditional love, despite everything I was taught. It's all built on control and people unwilling to heal their intergenerational trauma, and instead want a system of high-control to give their life structure and meaning.
I will say, it was so liberating to realize that I don't ever need to have kids or be married in a cishet patriarchal system. All the dreams I thought I'd have to give up, all the traits I thought were imperfections, I realized I never have to give up or change. I am finally loved for who I am and I wish that for everyone who was raised in this environment. Freedom is possible!
I'm relieved that this happened to you! Everyone deserves and needs independence, freedom, liberty!
when you take this along with the fact that these same christian families are fighting to gain the right to steal indigenous children from their families (if you dont know research the Indian Child Welfare Act) it starts to become very very reminiscient of residential schools because these families could use both concepts at once as a genocide tactic. it is sick
As someone who grew up both homeschooled and evangelical, it’s honestly hard for me to separate the two. The one saving grace (no pun intended) is that my parents didn’t become Christians until after I was born, so many ideas like courting were too hard for them to take earnestly after working on Wall Street in the late seventies.
(And I guess this is also a silver lining to my dysphoria, since how could I imagine myself as a married man with ten kids when I couldn’t even imagine myself as a man in the first place?)
@@cookierill if you ever feel like sharing your story, I’d like to hear it 💖
I just turn 18, but I am currently in this situation. Nearly everything my these people describe is how my parents raised me.
I am atheist, bisexual, and non gender conforming, so I don’t agree with them on anything anymore, but I never truly internalized that they were fucking abusing me.
They did beat me, and told me not to tell anyone about it, and I hated them for it, but it never entered my mind that this is practically criminal behavior!
I don’t know what to do, I still don’t want for them to suffer for it, my dad was the only one doing the beating so why should I drag my mom in with him? She still took part and mostly planned the education side of things, but she never hurt me and I have a decent relationship with her. However, my dad is the fucking devil and he should be punished for what he did, not just to me, but to my five other siblings.
I don’t know.
Your experience sounds remarkably similar to my own, and I want to say my heart is with you. As a now bisexual atheist raised in homeschool by evangelical parents (with a similar mother/father dynamic) who abused me, I feel you. I really do. And I want to say things do get better once you’re out.
On a side note, if counseling is ever an option for you, I highly recommend it as it’s done wonders for me in unpacking years of emotional, religious, and physical abuse. One YT channel that helped me start making sense of all this is Patrick Teehan. He’s a family therapist that covers these topics. Though I know it doesn’t fix the problem, his videos helped me feel less alone in my journey.
Regardless, I want to say that there are so many people that you’ll meet in life who will truly care about you. Though things are tough now, they can and will get better. I was in your shoes 6 years ago, and it felt unending. But eventually, you do get out. Sending lots of love and strength to you 💕
So glad he talked about children's rights. Not parent's rights. Children's rights.
I'm a homeschooler in Georgia, and we're homeschooling because of health reasons. I never planned to homeschool, but here we are, and we are secular, progressive, and academically rigorous homeschoolers in our 3rd year. My hope is that we can go back to public school within the next few years, but we are starting to see a lot of "Moms for Liberty" and other "religious council" influences in the schools here, which terrifies me. I don't want my kids learning these hateful, anti-Black, anti-LGBTQA, white supremacist, Christian nationalist viewpoints.
We have a small group of diverse and inclusive, secular homeschoolers in my area. But the overwhelming majority are right-wing MAGA conservative Christian folks. In our homeschool, we go out of our way to seek out decolonized, inclusive, non-whitewashed educational resources and curriculum, and thankfully that's getting easier as more people wake up to the problematic aspects of educational materials. For a long time, Christian curriculum dominated (Calvert, Abeka, The Good and the Beautiful, Masterbooks, etc.), and I'm grateful that if I have to homeschool, I get to do it in THIS era of non-religious curriculum choices.
I'd be HUGELY in favor of more oversight. Georgia has limited "laws" for homeschooling, and it's crazy to me that there is almost no oversight, and any recordkeeping is "for yourself" and you don't have to submit them anywhere. Basically, you just "give your word" that you're educating your kids at all. In addition, the only requirement to homeschool your kids is that you have graduated high school. (But again, no one asks you for proof of this!) There is some testing required every 3 years, but there is no requirement for a specific test, and lots of homeschoolers pick easy tests that give potentially inflated assessment results. It's nuts.
Thank you for this. I am currently student teaching at a public school in Mississippi, and my clinical instructor that I am assigned to constantly brings up pro-Trump/republican comments as well as her anti-LGBTQIA and religious beliefs, despite that being prohibited in public schools. She has also made some racist remarks that I cannot repeat. I am currently trying to see if I can switch placements but that just goes to show that this rhetoric goes beyond just homeschooling.
This is so important to discuss. I was homeschooled from 3rd-12th grade. There was no where to let people no what was going wrong in my house. My mother was narcissistic and ruled my whole world. I have almost no real education. And no one ever asked any questions.
I would also like to add my parents weren’t religious but my only outlets were and that the way homeschooling is set up is the perfect scenario for abusive parents to do whatever they want with no one watching.
Hearing about the abuse makes me wonder why, at least in the USA, children are allowed to be treated differently. They are treated as property. Like if I hit my coworker for doing something I don't like, I go to prison. But if I do the exact same thing to "my" child, I'm told I'm a good parent.
I understand children have a lack of practical knowledge of how the world works, but I don't know why that justifies treatinh them as non-people.
I was homeschooled because my public school recklessly disregarded my fatal nut allergies and refused to let us take days off for religious holidays, though this discrimination was not the primary reason I was pulled. I was pulled because a kid threatened to smear peanut butter in my face. If I hadn't been homeschool'd, I'd be dead. The principal told my parents they could sue the school after I died. My immunologist refused to classify my disabilities as disabilities, so I could never get help. I'm attending college for my bachelor's now. My education wasn't perfect, but it was enough.
As someone who was homeschooled and abused as a result, cases like yours are why I will never condemn homeschooling wholesale. I'm so glad your parents used the options they had to protect you. Kids like you are what homeschooling should be for.
This is my fave epsiode so far. I was raised fundamentalist christian and homeschooled. Being the second eldest of 7 kids, most of my time was spent rasing my younger siblings instead of learning. Most my life, I would blame myself for being "stupid"when I would take standardized tests at local Christian schools every year. I realize now it wasnt in my control. I just wish i would have had a more well rounded education instead of Bible verses.
I was homeschooled by my Christian far right parents from 4th - 11th grade because of “common core” and other things. I’m still just as trans as I was when I started. All the education was lumped on my mom to do since my dad was away at work, and my education started going downhill really fast, I honest to god didn’t really learn much from middle and high school and it’s embarrassing when my friends from public school were talking about science and algebra and I still had no idea what PEMDAS is. We were taught that we were better than public schoolers cause “homeschoolers are statistically smarter than public schoolers”. My senior year I decided to go to night school so I could have some control over my education and I have to start all over because I have no legit credits that could be used. It sucks but what can I do but honestly it’s the best decision I have made. I’m 19 but I should be graduating when I’m near 20 unfortunately. But I just keep telling myself I’ll be okay and maybe it will be.
Wow, this really resonates. I was never homeschooled but growing up in Utah, homeschooling is a VERY common thing. I’ve known so many people that both hated and loved it. Here, Mormons do it so they can shelter their kids from everything, literally. Everything from people of color, different religions, partying, drinking, LGBT people, science, sex education, even Halloween. My friend was homeschooled so she wouldn’t meet boys until 18, then kicked out at 20 for not being married yet. Mormons, and even not very devout Mormons really push you to go on a mission just out of high school. Luckily most of the kids I’ve known got out and worked hard to catch up to their peers and are now very educated, successful, happy people, but with little to no contact with their families. Others I’ve seen weren’t so lucky, they lack social skills, critical thinking skills, common sense, but I think the worst of all, lack of a desire for knowledge or culture. Great topic Matt! From one long nailed gay to another, Sending love ❤️
“You have 2 years to find a husband, GO!”
“Unmarried at 20? Do you want to be a spinster??”
That’s so crazy to me and kinda funny, but I hope your friend is ok now.
I grew up in Utah and didn't know a single homeschooling family until I went to college and met one. 😆 I live here now and homeschool my kids. I agree with you that most do it for the reasons you mentioned and it is hard to find community here as a homeschooling family with more liberal views. We've lived in other places and plan to leave Utah again in the next few years. There are people like us, we just have to travel a little further to meet up with them.
I’m a Mormon, but I’ll be honest, my reasons for considering homeschooling is because the state I’m in does abstinence only sex ed and I don’t believe in that (being a nurse definitely gives a good view on why comprehensive sex education is important) and I feel like the public school system isn’t adequate for a well rounded education. Even if it’s my own religion I don’t feel okay overly mixing secular and religious education. I would love some input on if people believe there’s a way to balance things because I desperately want a socialized child but I don’t want them falling in the cracks public school has
@@disneyprincessintraining2725 I totally hear you. The parents hope the school handles the conversation, and the school assumes the parents gave the basics, if not more. I’m definitely not the one to ask cuz I grew up gay in Utah in a private school setting. We got sex ed in our senior year in high school, and that’s only because the teacher was kinda “anti establishment.” Since it was catholic, sex is for procreation, and never using contraceptives. We graduated with 2 girls pregnant and the one football coach was the dad. I learned gay sex through a friend, and disease contraction advice from a drag queen. Honestly the best thing I learned about this later in life was to not be ashamed. Have that awkward conversation, ask what kids are learning about specific topics ie sex. This is probably stupid but when I was younger if my parents had created a safe space I prob would’ve come out sooner. Like if 2 guys kissed in a show, if they had said something like omg how cute, or happy for them or said that was ok, coming out or just talking would’ve been much more open and honest. I think the same can apply to sex ed, it just says you’re open and willing to meet them halfway if they see you’re comfortable talking.
I was unschooled under the guise of homeschooling by my fundie Muslim family, it traumatised me beyond repair. Later I continued my education though
there's something kind of beautiful to me about couples who get married in a strict religious context, leave the strict religion and stay together anyway.
In South Africa we do homeschooling in the sense that you're learning at home but you must be enrolled at an online school where the curriculum aligns with that of students in "normal" day school. They attend classes online
I grew up Mormon, and I knew many people who were homeschooled in these environments. I was raised in a very emotionally abusive family. I watched one of my own sisters transition her 5 kids to homeschooling to hide child abuse (emotional and physical). It haunts me to this day that I never called CPS on her.
I was homeschooled all of elementary school by an evangelical mother with a subpar education. For instance, she literally does not know math past 2nd grade. While she was pretty involved the first year, most of it I was “self-taught”. Meaning, I had no teacher other than a my homeschool curriculum books and my own self-motivation to learn. My schooling was never more than 2 hours a day until I “got bored” and would write “I don’t care” to every question prompt. And because she never checked my work, there was zero accountability. On a happier note, it took insistently telling my parents how unhappy I was for years until eventually I was enrolled into a conventional school and things got better.
Matt, you are such a constantly good interviewer. I have enjoyed all of your new long-form interviews and enjoy your guests and your interactions with them. I do thank you and I hope you continue this.
I feel the exact same way. I’ve listened to each long form interview at least twice. Such thoughtful discussions that are very important right now. Good work Matt
This discourse hits me real different as both a teacher and a woman who never wants to be a mom. I love kids, but... I mean, look at our world right now. I completely understand why parents are becoming less trusting of schools. I also understand the history of public schooling and all of the efforts that led us to the point we are at. It really is a difficult situation. But I feel like to see all of this, decide to still have children, and THEN create your own "society" for them while still living in traditional American society... it just seems backwards and counterintuitive. Why are we not all fighting to improve the school system BEFORE birthing the babies who will potentially have to go there? Why do we do the big thing (have kids) first, and THEN critique the system after? This really has me stuck. As a teacher, I'm fighting for these kids every single day. But this fight has solidified stronger than ever that I refuse to have my own children until something has changed. Writing our own rules while turning a blind eye to the systemic rules is not the solution. We must change the system.
So you won't ever have children, or, if by a miracle, there's the change you seek within your generation, you will be so old you child will have a highly increased chance of down syndrome and a host other issues, if you are still fertile at all.
This journey of unlearning and reprogramming is still so new for both of them. I hope they both continue to get the support and care they need to unpack so much abuse, psychological damage and indoctrination. I feel so deeply for the isolation and lack of self-trust they must feel and how courageous and brave they are for forging a different path.
In my experience growing up in this environment, it wasn't that you couldn't think for yourself per se. It was that questioning the fundamentals of the religion was "life threatening" in the eternal sense. Having differing opinions would ostracize you from your piers. You become more of a prodject than a friend. I will say that my community/parents were good at thought ending clichés. If you ask a tough question, they answer "God's will is beyond our understanding." Then they go on and tell everyone what God wants.
I was homeschooled for a year. Combination of gifted child issues and social issues. It was basically impossible for us to find a non religious online course (the one we went with was still fairly religious) and it was EXPENSIVE. This was over a decade ago, but it felt very weird. I still like some aspects of it, but i had to repeat the classes that i needed some guidance in (i was doing an advanced level anyways thankfully) because my mom couldn't help. Also my social skills took a huge dive cuz of lack of practice. COVID did the same thing, I can barely hold a conversation these days
As a queer AFAB person who grew up homeschooled since kindergarten, I really appreciated this video! I was in a dangerous abusive one day a week homeschool program and I was there all 12 years. I had no sex education, our science in middleschool was books about how to argue that evolution was not real. I was also told by other classmates and adults involved in the program after a shooting at a planed parenthood someone did a project on " its so sad he went to prison for that because he's taking out murderers and saving lives" .I watched my friends turn into violent alt right disgusting people and I was sexually abused and harrassed by an ex and was almost expelled for it. In a lot of ways it quite literally ruined a lot of my childhood and not enough people are talking about this issue! Love ur content!
I really am tempted to send this to my cousins who were home schooled with a Christian focused curriculum. I’m not sure how they’d take it though. We used to be super close and as I’ve branched away from the church we’ve grown apart. The “breaking your kids will” part with the hitting reminded me of being spanked when I was a kid. My dad hates doing it so much he would cry like full on sob whenever he “had” to spank me for being disobedient. I remember him saying “this hurts me more than it hurts you” every single time. He didn’t want to hit us but that’s what they were taught was the right way to parent.
I do feel lucky that I went to public school, as imperfect as it was, because it afforded me more opportunities to learn of experiences outside of my religion and let me form my own beliefs and identities. I still have trauma around my religious upbringing, but I think it would have been much worse if I’d been secluded from secular ideas completely.
I was religiously homeschooled K-12, as was my partner. I started secularly homeschooling our oldest child for kindergarten and had started him in 1st this year, but ended up sending him to our local public school last month as our social avenues had gone stagnant and he needed more social opportunities than what I could provide via homeschooling.
He’s thriving and I’m beyond glad we made this transition. I was so nervous that it wouldn’t go well but he has adapted so well, and it does my inner isolated child good to see him getting plugged into a community. I thought I could take the good parts of my homeschool experience, take out the religion, and all would go well. But it turns out homeschooling is incredibly difficult to do well.
With that being said, anecdotally I have seen about 80% of homeschooling families I’ve interacted with neglecting their children in some way. Academically, socially, or in other ways. As I said, it’s very hard to do homeschooling well, without neglecting any aspects. It was eating me alive to make sure I was meeting all these needs for my kids, and I’m so glad to not have to be in charge of the outcome of literally every single aspect of my kids’ lives anymore. I’m so grateful for my 1st grader’s teacher! 🫠
I grew up mostly raised by grandparents, and they were Roman Catholic, school allowed me to actually understand what they were saying wasn't just accepted fact, especially when I went to a special needs school full of LGBTQ kids. If I'd been homeschooled I would have probably ended up stuck in their sphere for longer; I would have repressed my trans identity longer if I only had their one story of the trans woman invading a woman's bathroom. Instead I had other people like me who just existed, who could offer me a much nicer story of the group I turned out a part of. My school friends saved me, and my heart goes out to those like me that weren't able to go to school and meet friends who could enlighten and support them.
I homeschooled until my oldest was in 4th grade (one of my kids is medically fragile). I put them in school, and they are doing great now. Thankfully they weren’t behind, and are super social kids. It was so much work. I’m glad I don’t homeschool anymore, but I don’t regret a couple extra years at home. My kids LOVE public school and thankfully my medically fragile kid is in a very small, very clean classroom.
We can’t forget that public school can be absolute hell for some children. I was ruthlessly bullied. Some of my peers were physically assaulted on a regular basis.
I wish there was a solution for all of this.
So i was never homeschooled but my father was a pastor , for presbeterian (sp sorry) branch of the church. He would let me watch veggie tales , pbs kids and we always talked about a large amount of topics when I was little .
I saw him treat people well, he listened to old school music and Led Zeppelin in his car and loved Sz top . We always had a variety of people working at the seminary so I met some amazing friends of his from Ghana and Kenya he went over on a mission to Kenya to help build a church and library and a few of his major workers and teachers were lesbians etc .
You get the point. He was a god fearing man, but believed in science , he was big in the church but bigger in people . He was someone who would always lend and ear and talk , but often was very shy and to himself contemplating and just thinking about everything .
I never was raised to feel I should hate another group because of him if anything I felt like he showed me even a pastor can like rock , drinking a little burbon on a Friday after a shift , and can be a loving person , father etc and not have me on a leash .
I think the problem is there is no room for nuance when you speak with people who want to live in extremes , especially young parents or people highly outspoken about it , I think many of them haven’t learned how to ride these types of waves of just change .
If you don’t agree with something I can completely understand but you can’t ban everything because you don’t accept it when other may . Can’t ban books but then my father reads “to kill a mocking bird “ to me at home at night lol.
It’s this extremism that I think is hurting more than the paranoia they have
Congrats on the sponsorship Matt!
Your ability to choose such interesting, nuanced, varied, kind guests shows just how deeply you are all of these things as well, and more. Thank you for all the things and perspectives you have exposed me to throughout the years with your instagram and now with the pod. Your ability to think of things in such a deep, complex, nuanced and yet kind way is something I try to bring in my own life and interactions with the world.
Thank you for this beautiful peak into your beautiful brain and heart, you are truly an inspiration!
(Signed by a bi, French, 29yo, cis woman)
I was homeschooled my entire life, I'm now a college freshman but I genuinely resent the fact that I was homeschooled. I have severe social anxiety and I was never socialized during my developmental years so it feels nearly impossible to properly function like other people do. the religion part also sucked but now that I'm in college I can learn true shit, but I cant go back in time and develop my social skills as a child like literally everyone else was doing. i have no friends. being around other people makes me anxious and I get overstimulated extremely quickly. i have no idea how to talk to people. I genuinely feel as if I'm never going to be able to recover from how badly being isolated in my childhood fucked me up. I try my best but I don't really believe I'll ever be able to form relationships with other people whether romantic or platonic. my parents are evangelicals and that's why they chose to homeschool me and my siblings. I don't believe in god and I'm severely set back socially, so it was all for nothing.
My best friend has a similar story. He lived with his abusive parents until he was 25 (you’re already ahead of him lol). He was… weird, socially awkward, and a mess. I probably wouldn’t have wanted to be around him then and now he cringes at what he was like… not that long ago. He then met his wife and is now 33 with two kids. He is a well-rounded individual who people generally love to be around/ interact with and has a thriving social life. He can be awkward and such and also has social anxiety and needs what he calls “social-battery-charging time” or whatever and sometimes days or weeks where he “disappears”. The point is he did adjust and develop the social skills and self-concept he should have as a teenager and was able to form and maintain relationships. I wasn’t home-schooled but I also have social anxiety and get overstimulated and struggle with… a lot… (generally traumatic childhood and existing while being queer tho) so I understand… and it is manageable.
You are incredibly strong and amazing for surviving what you did. You’re doing great! Please have hope! ❤️💖💗
you’ll be able to form friendships, it just takes time. i know a lot of queer and neurodivergent people are pretty understanding of the anxiety, lack of social skills, overstimulation.
and one thing about social skills is that they are just skills. they can be worked on and developed over time (slow process but that can and does get better). there’s books about how to be good at small talk and how to have conversations. they give you strategies you can test out and will give you a picture of what a good conversation looks like.
and the best way i know to make friends is to find something you’re interested in, and find a group or club around that interest that you can go to regularly.
it does get better. it will take effort and time and a willingness to be awkward and uncomfortable, but it does get better. i was able to work through my social anxiety and go from painfully shy to actually enjoying getting to talk with strangers. you did not get the upbringing you deserved, that does NOT mean you are condemned to a life of loneliness.
Even if it comes later in life, you will eventually be able to calm social anxieties. Therapy and somatic practices have helped me so much, and even though I didn’t get help in time to be ready for college, after graduating I am just now starting to experience life better. Don’t give up hope.
matt i can't believe this podcast is only still in its first few episodes, the topics and guests have been so interesting and you're doing great as an interviewer. keep it up!
Thanks Matt for this great interview!
As an European atheist it feels kind of alien to me and, to be honest, really terrifying. I'm glad Christina and Aaron got out and are now working to make things better.
In Colombia there is a culture war about “indoctrination” similar but to a lesser extent. But instead of homeschooling, parents just take their kids to a private school that aligns with their beliefs. Interpersonal relationships are vital
Agreed! And that happens here too with charter schools and choice vouchers depending on the state. And now some state assemblies are just trying to make public schools right-wing and extremist through legislation. Decreased funding. Removing books from libraries (school and public). Etc. It’s all part of a systemic attack on public education and knowledge itself to completely remove diversity of thought and the ability to question and ultimately do anything about the state of our society. Things really are rapidly declining here….
Thankyou for bringing this topic up, i wasn’t exactly homeschooled but i went to a “christian school” with only 12 other kids and it was very much a toxic environment trying to indoctrinate all of us and the things they got away with as far as teaching and proper education is INSANE. I personally feel incredibly underdeveloped and never felt i got a proper education. And the school is still up and running and i don’t think people realize how bad these places really are with the religious indoctrination and christian curriculums that are not really educating anyone adequately. I really feel these types of educational upbringings are a huge reason to the continuous dumbassery of this country
If your love and acceptance is conditional on your child sharing your exact worldview and identity you absolutely should NOT become a parent.
I almost didn't watch this because I knew how triggering it would be (having come from that world), but it was worth it. Excellent to see former homeschoolers advocating for the rights of children.
the fact that people compare the religious system to the education system is wild. the education system is meant to open your mind in a safe environment. religion is meant to control the mind in a closed environment. theyre literally on opposites. also saying religion does no harm is like saying guns in a house do no harm. theyve both been proven false
I was homeschooled by my evangelical Christian parents till highschool (I begged them for years to let me go) in a VERY rural midwestern town. Once I started to break free and think my own thoughts I heavily mourned the loss of my childhood due to the intense isolation, loneliness and brainwashing.
We're queer and autistic atheists and planning to homeschool. I don't trust public schools, or much of anyone really, to not mistreat my autistic kids and use shit like ABA on them without our consent. Our oldest is three and we're already looking for socialization and learning opportunities in secular settings to ensure he and the rest get good quality education and socialization without risk of abuse or mistreatment. I want him to learn literally everything we can offer him and make his own choices as he grows. I can't imagine wanting to limit my kids.
Thank you so much for this video. I wasn’t homeschooled, but i was indoctrinated in the same way. at school i was unable to connect with my peers because of how the emotional abuse through the church made me feel about outsiders and myself. i appreciate others stories on how they were able to get out💗
Even though my parents are in a fundamentalist cult, I was lucky enough to say that me being homeschooled has nothing to do with that. I was super sick as a kid and it greatly interfered with my education. The way I was homeschooled there was mandatory testing, group functions that my family indulged in, regular calls from counselors and teachers, etc. my family also used it as an excuse to travel around the country often so I could see different states as often as possible. I’m one of the lucky ones that had a good homeschooling experience
i was homeschooled in a christian household. i was lucky enough to have relatively accepting, progressive parents. as a neurodivergent kid, i was actually recommended to be homeschooled by my preschool teachers haha, and tbh i found my education really valuable. i was able to learn about things i was interested in, go deeper in studies i otherwise wouldn't be able to spend time on, and i feel that i've learned more and more deeply than i would be able to in a public school setting.
however. i also came into contact with really fundamentalist white christian families. as a queer person it was horrifying to see what some of the queer people in these co-ops and communities went through. in high school, i was told not to "dress too gay" around my friends' families because i might not be able to come back to their houses.
the religion thing is weird - i grew up in a quite accepting church that i believe was good for me. but many of the families i knew were absolutely in that fundamentalist mindset, refused to teach from non-conservative resources, didn't let their kids read unapproved books, etc.
my parents are scientists, so i was supported in this - but many of my friends and classmates were conditioned into conspiracy theories involving anti-evolutionism, outdated "science", and young-earth creationism.
i still stand by homeschooling, for kids who would benefit from a different system or structure than public school gives them (neurodivergent kids like myself, and poc kids who aren't gaining an accurate picture of race in america, for example). i've met wonderful people, including many of my best friends, through homeschooling, and been able to explore my own identity, beliefs, religious stance, and more through my education. but i also realize that i got really lucky, and many of the kids i grew up with definitely suffered. it's a huge and varied community, and it absolutely shouldn't be considered a perfectly harmless thing. the bubble is real, i was lucky enough to be encouraged to break out of it, but many are not. be kind to your homeschooled friends - they often don't know what they're being held back from.
My husband and I homeschool our 5 kids, and we come from conservative Christian families, but homeschooling was extremely uncommon and mostly looked down upon in our communities. I started this episode thinking I was going to disagree with so much of what you'd say. I was wrong! I have mixed feelings about homeschooling oversight because I want freedom to do what I feel is right for my family without the government butting in, but I understand that many parents (especially Evangelicals) use homeschooling as a way to indoctrinate and abuse their children. I am a strong advocate for the rights of children. This is why we unschool. We facilitate learning by creating a loving and encouraging environment for our kids. We let them learn in ways that feel right to them. This is a very unusual way of doing things and many people don't like it (generally because it's not how they were raised and their minds can't fathom the idea that kids actually love to learn if you get out of their way.) So, I don't want anyone to take away this beautiful thing that we have, BUT I am willing to deal with annoying oversight if it means saving other children from abuse.
This episode was triggering but necessary. I was raised in a fundamentalist homeschooling family. I was also special needs and queer. It was "literal" torture. My parent was mentally unstable and well educated. Homeschooling covered my parent's physical, psychological, sexual, and medical abuse my entire childhood. I can't believe I survived. I'm now a social worker and done a tour in child protective services, sexual assault victim advocacy, and education. Trying my best to be the help I never got...
39:16 with the far right, esp the religious far right, every accusation is a confession
the funniest thing about this is that if you want your kid to be a "normal christian" the best way to do it is send them to public school while telling them they're better than all those shitlib children that are "oppressing" them with anti-bullying policies. exploit the fact that children dont like school very much. but that would require them to understand child psychology in any way. or just remember their own childhood.
I'm so glad they busted out of it for their kids. The fact that they both independently had the thought *"I can't be cruel to children"* says a lot about their character.
If anyone here recently broke free of a wild religious cult: it gets *so* much better.
The first few years for me were very difficult, and I was angry all of the time at every lie that had ever been told to me. Now, it's been 10 years, and I barely think about it anymore. You will get through the difficult phase, just keep going.
I was homeschooled by cool liberal parents in an ultra-conservative Christian area and the cheapest way to get curriculum was to buy it secondhand from our homeschool peers. My mom is a librarian and she's whip-smart so that evangelical Christian curriculum couldn't fool me, it was either that or have me and my brother go to the only school in our area where he got bullied (by teachers) for being disabled and I got bullied(by teachers) for being advanced. Now I'm a successful leftist librarian but growing up my friend's parents (Christian fundamentalists) had me convinced that I was going to be raptured before too long so it came with some fun trauma anyway
I have an interesting story regarding this:
For context I‘m Austrian so yeah.
I was in the same class in elementary school as two people who ended up being homeschooled afterwards.
The first kid: he flourished and truly exceeded in it and his parents, especially his mum, was very strict in the sense that it was scheduled and set up to be like actual school (idk why he was homeschooled though). Fast forward he now studies at Oxford University (what he studies I cannot remember anymore, my mum told me about it some time ago)
Second kid: he would do nothing. He would never do the assignments nor homework and his mum had no control over him. He had no clear structure and ended up doing nothing. After 1-2 years she did put him in a middle school where he finished his basic education. He later had all sorts of different jobs that he ended up quitting, never wanting to do anything. And now he is just at home and does nothing (my mum is closer with his than the first kid’s mum, so that’s why I have more detailed info on him)
I hope this now illustrates my opinion well: if you are 100% behind educating your child this way and you FOLLOW the curriculum plus get professional aid etc. it is definitely possible. However, you need to be really sure of it as you might end up doing your child more harm than good.
(Edited bc of typos)
For arguments sake, it sounds like the one who was home schooled for 2 years was going to end up in that situation regardless. I mean, when only 2 years out of their entire education involved home schooling and they spent most of their education in the school system it sounds like the education system also failed there. I always wonder in cases like that if there was some undiagnosed neurodivergence or mental health issues going on.
thank you for having this conversation. it felt super validating to hear other people talk about what i experienced.
i was homeschooled from 4th grade to graduation. i'm thankful that i participated in a charter school so there was a bit more regulation, but the abuse at home and isolation was still bad. the only times my brother and i got out of the house was for the multiple church activities we would volunteer for every week. church was everything. jesus was our whole lives. i ended up taking early college courses at a christian college, graduating, and going to college for a year before having to drop out to get married to my abusive ex-husband. he became the worship leader/pastor and i worked near full-time at the church for no pay to be a diligent partner and submit.
i knew i wasn't a straight woman the whole time, but i didn't have language until really around covid for what a trans man even was. and then i didn't know that everyday people could medically transition, i thought you had to be very very rich to do that.
i'm now over 2 years on T, worked my ass off to pay for top surgery, am divorced, and no longer a christian. and everyday i am thankful that i made it out alive.
holy- Aaron mentioned TeenPact and that just brought back a crazy experience. My girlfriend and their siblings went to a week long TeenPact camp in our state's capitol and because of some jealous and bigoted roommates and rumors being spread, our relationship was found out, the camp directors called my partner's parents and outed them not only as queer but outed our relationship as well, and then told my girlfriend to pack and drive 4 hours home. As the oldest, my girlfriend was their sibling's ride back home but the camp didn't care. They jut said "You're a sinful being and you can't be here" despite my girlfriend complying to dress codes, doing assignments, and being respectful. That was honestly one of the most stressful weeks of my life and it makes my blood ABSOLUTELY BOIL that they had not only the power but the desire to do that to a young, vulnerable person.
Anyway thanks for all you do, Matt! Thank you for sharing a platform with voices that so often get buried.
I feel such grief for the way I was homeschooled. I'm trying to educate myself on the basics now.
The trying to keep kids away from mandated reporters is scary to me, since this includes healthcare professionals as they pointed out. (I myself am a mandated reporter because of being a therapist.) However, one thing I think people overlook sometimes is that while yes, we mandated reporters legally and ethically *must* report child abuse, literally anyone *can* make a child abuse report. If you have concerns about a child/family that you know, you can find your state's abuse reporting hotline or website and report directly rather than having to talk to a mandated reporter to get them to do it. Also, we're definitely not out here trying to turn the children gay; if a client tells me they're LGBT then I am accepting of them, but trying to force them into an orientation would be unethical.
Also I think it was glossed over at the beginning that there is a wide variation between different states in how much homeschooling is regulated. I was not homeschooled but know several people who were for at least part of their educational career. The state where I grew up (Pennsylvania) is one of the ones who regulated it heavily--from what I understand parents have to submit a portfolio every year of what their child did that year and there are yearly evaluations of the child's progress by an education professional who isn't the parent--so I was surprised to find out not every state is the same way. Meanwhile my husband was homeschooled in two different Southern states (Tennessee and North Carolina) that were apparently less regulated, but he does remember having someone come to his house at the end of the year to evaluate him. But his family also wasn't IBLP. I do want to show him "Shiny Happy People" sometime to get his take on it.
The thing about “should we put any restrictions on places where child abuse has happened?” comment is also such a defense of the Church. So I can see why they would say that.
I wasn't even homeschooled, but this is so similar to how I was raised. It's shocking to here other people sharing the same experience I had this closely. This mindset and framing of the world goes even further than homeschooling, which I think is known. This whole video is a gem and so important I think. Thank you for putting together such thoughtful and articulate videos. I'm a huge fan, and so glad to see this sort of content out there. I'm really grateful for the work you're doing, it's inspiring me to be more vocal in my own life about different things.
10/10 would watch again. I’ve been feeling like the conservatives have been projecting their wrongdoings onto the Left and acting like their sh*t don’t stink. This just further proves my theory and now it’s time to delve into the rabbit hole
I was homeschooled as a kid as my parents thought I would be bullied in actual school for my autism.
This didn’t stop my curriculum from being weird fundamentalist young earth creationist nonsense, or myself for getting indoctrinated into it as a child!
Thankfully, I didn’t stay indoctrinated. In my teen years/nearing the end of homeschooling, I started to see the weird parts more clearly, which often made me extremely frustrated with the sure idiocy of this curriculum. Even my mom agreed a lot of it was pure nonsense after she became less insane.
I’d often write my own comments on the insanity of the curriculum in my books because I felt so frustrated with how crazy it was.
When we moved out of the US, my sister (who also used to be homeschooled in the US) started going to actual school in NZ. After watching this video, I’m beginning to think that I might have come to accept my transness earlier if I wasn't homeschooled after moving and instead went to the same school my sister went to. Too late to change the past I guess though.
I was homeschooled since 2nd grade and I'm currently working on getting my bachelor's. My best friend and my fiancé were also homeschooled and we all had good experiences being homeschooled, but our parents actually cared to teach us and none of our families were religious. I was pulled out because my family was constantly moving due to my dad's work, my fiancé was pulled out because his sibling was being bullied, and my best friend was pulled because the school system where she lived sucked. When we were homeschooled we would go on lots of cool field trips, be able to focus on topics we were interested in, and connect with other homeschool kids at co-ops. I have a childhood friend who had a terrible experience with homeschooling because their religious parents were very homophobic and abusive, they eventually had to run away at 18. I had another homeschooled friend who I broke off my friendship with when they turned out to be homophobic and they apparently met someone, got engaged, and married them within a year at like 18-19 and already has a toddler so I definitely know there's abuse and indoctrination but I don't think homeschooling should be abolished, it should just be better regulated with check-ins, mandated tests every once in a while, and parents should be given more resources/required curriculum because sometimes homeschooling is a better alternative for some families
2:29 Thats only half the picture and a very white savior perspective btw. Just like white christian fundamentalists there’s also a lot of black christians who don’t want their kids to learn about progressive ideas in public schools. It’s not just a racism in schools issue. There are many black fundamentalists. There are also many parents who simply prefer homeschooling for valid reasons like learning disabilities.
I’m so ready to both trigger and heal my trauma by watching this 😂 I was “homeschooled” starting in 7th grade. I received almost no education and was extremely isolated, rarely even leaving the house except for church 3x a week.
Thank you for another great podcast! This is definitely a strange concept to me as homeschooling doesn't really happen where I live. Still, we hear about this kind of things and I can't help but feel sorry for the kids who are put through this.
That was really brave of her to share - I don't think I would share my private writing from that age and I haven't gone through an extreme ideological shift. I appreciate the candor, it's inspiring.
TW: discussion of CSA
I was raised very similarly. An aspect I wish was talked about more with this kind of parenting is the sexual undertones it can have, especially for the AFAB kids. You are taught that your body belongs to your dad, and that ownership will pass to your husband, so it is heavily implied that your relationship with your dad and your future relationship with your husband are similar or identical; and you are also taught that your husband will be someone with whom you must have sex whenever he wants. You are explicitly taught that listening to your parents is practice for "submitting" to your husband, and that submission will be an important part of your future sex life. There are no boundaries of any kind between you and your parents, for your body, your mind, your feelings, or your beliefs. The spankings are on your butt and may involve undressing either partially or fully in front of your parents; they also may take place on your parents' bed. Your body is frequently commented upon in a sexual manner by your parents under the guise of teaching you to be "modest", so you are forced to accept your parent viewing you as a sexual object. You are also taught that you cannot reject anything from your parents even if you believe it is wrong; for example, if they touch you anywhere and it makes you uncomfortable, you are not allowed to protest, move away, or register any displeasure whatsoever. Some of the parents will also confide in their children inappropriate details about their own sex life, although other parents will have a heavy layer of secrecy and privacy for themselves instead in order to enforce how far their children are below them in social power. All of these rules are enforced with the ritualized beatings and sometimes forced "bonding" time with the parent you had an issue with where you are repeatedly questioned about any personal details you can imagine. Even when the parents never explicitly molest their children, the vibes are still rancid in the highest order.
i grew up homeschooled and catholic. every time i think about how my mother chose to do that it infuriates me. she was diagnosed with ADHD (before she even had me) and tried to homeschool 5 kids with no teaching experience and was not medicated to help with her ADHD. i learned nothing except things about my religion. I didn’t learn algebra until i did my first semester at Community College. i didn’t know how to write a paper until college. and i was doing the same science in highschool as my little brother (4 years younger than me). It angers me that she was allowed to “teach” us. it angers me that all i was fed was lies and how to hate those who didn’t believe what i did. I think those who want to homeschool need to follow a program still and be checked on. looking back i feel as if i was in a cult or something. it was extremely isolating and i felt as if i had NO life or social skills when i moved out at 19. it’s abusive to only focus on religious material when teaching children. i don’t think homeschooling is necessarily evil but it should be much more closely monitored. i know it genuinely does help some kids who struggle in school but not everyone should be allowed to homeschool.
I'm actually in favor of unschooling, I was unschooled quite a bit by my family who were LGBT, but both of my grandmothers were english teachers. My cousin was homeshooled by christian nationalists and it didn't turn out well for her.
Thank you. I always love how incredibly informational and supportive your content is ❤
I was homeschooled in an evangelical cult and I appreciate you talking about this. very under-discussed part of evangelicalism, and surprisingly widespread.
This is so difficult to watch. These lovely humans didn’t deserve to be abused as children like they were.
So I just started this video, but I want to add my own perspective on it as a white, bisexual, atheist with a disability.
I just graduated high school. Up until the second semester on my sophomore year, I was in public school. I then started homeschool. My mom is a certified teacher in Texas, and taught in public high school for 20 years. We decided I would leave public school because I recently became disabled and have had experiences with two chronic autoimmune diseases. At the end of my sophomore year, my mom also left the public school system with disgust of how I was treated because of my health. I was being told I was committing truancy even though I was at home, sick, and bedridden for months.
My mom is a progressive christian, my dad is agnostic, and I am an atheist. I was never taught to go along with any religion in my life.
Homeschool has been an amazing experience for me, and I have been able to learn life skills that I would not have learned in public school. I also had the opportunity to grow my career in acting, getting jobs, and I also met my boyfriend because of this.
There certainly are tons and tons of families who do homeschool in the way described in this video, but I want to highlight that it is not like that for all of us.
I remember reading this article in the WP! Very cool to hear more of their story. I'm always impressed with people who are able to get out of this level of mind control.