Light arrows WIN!!! Archery Education Video 6 Animals Move
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.ค. 2024
- The best argument for light arrows. They are fast and animals move.
In this video we discuss animal movement relative to how long it takes for an arrow to reach the target. What's better faster arrows or slower arrows with more mass. The discussion continues.
Future videos:
Broadhead design
Bow tuning
Arrow geometry and fletching effects on drag and energy,
Bow tuning effects on energy loss
Bow tuning effect on penetration
Arrow impact angle effects
Arrow momentum
Target/animal forces opposing penetration
and more as the questions come in.
Archery equipment Testing
Camera gear:
Sony A7c
deity d4 duo mic
tamron 28-200mm
tamron 20-40mm
Sirui tripod
Iphone 13 pro max
Gear review and testing videos coming as well
#archery #education #outdoors #physics #bow #arrow #arrows #penetration #foc #fast #light #heavy #hunting #deer #elk - กีฬา
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My belief is that a middle of the road setup will perform well in most situations for most people. 425-475 grains launching between 275-295 FPS will work for pretty much anything in North America if you pair that with a durable shaft, good components, and a moderate size fixed blade (1.25" cut or so) or moderate size well-designed mech with 1.5-1.75" cut. It will be easy to tune, not give up too much speed, and have enough KE to get the job done.
Of course adjustments will need to be made for low poundage, shorter draw, etc and part of that will be closer shot distances and being pickier about shot angles and what shots you take keeping animal movement in mind.
👍👍 some unbiased information we can use in the field. I’ve believed in shooting the fastest 425 grain arrow I can deliver. Around 275-285 fps. Hasn’t let me down yet.
Thanks I am trying to be unbiased as possible. Thanks for watching!
Cool stuff. keep them coming
Excellent information….as always!
Great videos! Keep it up!
I like that everything seems 90+% non opinionated and I can just think how they apply to my goals
Great to hear! I am trying to be as non biased as possible.
@@Lucas_Palmer_bownerd_engineer you're doing great man! Keep it up
Very useful info for people taking shots 30+yds. And why you want to shoot a calm animal that’s not looking at you if you do want to shoot 30+ yds.
Lucas, Ididnt read all the comments, but I did testing years ago for 'arrow noise' and glad to see you including this in your videos. I feel arrow noise is overlooked by many hunters. But what I wanted to mention is, color of the nock end of the arrow ie, fletching and wraps. if used. As we know deer are on high alert from almost every direction from predators. I set up a video camera with excellent sound recording at the target. Light colored fletch can be seen coming by the deer, distance depending on fps. I now use all dark (not blue) colored fletching and no wrap. I also included lighted nocks in my tests, and they have no affect because they are seen from behind the arrow, not in front. Watch videos of deer being shot and you'll notice the 'arrow effect' usually makes the deer drop as the arrow is close. If bow sound was the only factor, they'd drop sooner. Try it out and do some testing and see what you think. PS, I've been bowhunting for 56 years and many critters have fallen ;) Nice job on the videos but I'm too old for all that math stuff, lol
Thank you that is something I didn’t even consider! It does make complete sense if they can see the arrow coming and with how good their vision is that makes complete sense that most shots they will also see the arrow. That would be interesting to put more research into. Thanks for your support!
Thanks for more thought provoking content. Looking forward to new releases.
Another great video
Thanks again!
Super interesting. I’ve always shot lighter faster fixed blade arrows. Out of dozens of deer shot over many many years I have lost two. I’m sure I hit the heavy rib part of the scapula? One was on camera 2 weeks later feeding and moving like normal? Found out later the other buck was rifle killed after archery season on a neighbor’s farm.
Can’t wait! some of the most comprehensive videos, excellent work! My money will be on 2-3 deg 3 fletch with a 4 blade head, give up a little penetration for a harder hitting transfer of energy and more cutting surface area. I believe to much helical on the fletchings reduces penetration, rotational force must stop when contact with target media therefore less energy available for penetration
Wrong
Thanks! glad you enjoyed the video! Lots of videos, testing, and work to do. Thanks for watching!
I’m middle of the road guy. My current arrow is 460. I think 450is a sweet spot. But I won’t shoot over 500. I’d rather have a flatter shooting arrow, that gives me enough speed for yardage misjudgment or a mishap. If I have to take a 50-60 yard shot especially in the woods, I’d rather have a flatter shooting arrow. Also I believe shot placement is king. But too each their own.
Best one yet - Must be said! As you're energy of your setup decreases, as with the lower energy setup you mentioned, the more important you're time in flight matters. I'm convinced that both arrow sound and bow noise matters. Get both down as much as possible. Something I'm testing now is how many decibels a heavy arrow reduces bow noise. My ears can't tell the difference - I'm going to do a few different methods to test though.
One thing that should also be noted on the penetration front - once the animal starts to move it's accelerating away/down from the arrow. Acceleration by definition means it's a higher rate when the arrow gets there if it has longer. Reducing penetration as well.
My biggest reason for light arrows is arrow drop. I’ve never ranged a deer then shot the deer. I’ve always ranged the trees sometimes 10+ yards apart. Speed equals forgiveness
100% - As long as you've got your broadhead and arrow designed for your specs that's what is most critical.
Great stuff…I’m a speed guy!
Thank you!
Great mathematical explanation to a highly disputed topic!!
Glad it was helpful! Lots more to come!
Awesome video. One thing I have never seen in any vane test is the frequency of the sound. It is always dB. With whitetails ability to hear higher frequencies I've always wondered if that makes a difference to thier reaction to the sound of the arrow.
Great point! I was just talking about this with a friend and definitely something I will try to identify as well! Thanks for the comment!
I recently found an article discussing that their hearing is best at frequencies slightly above where our hearing is best. So from that point of view lower frequencies would presumably be better because they wouldn’t sound as loud but that’s just the theory!
A possible explanation for why trad shooters do well. And even get second shots.
@@Lucas_Palmer_bownerd_engineer It should also be noted that it it's not just frequency or decibel but the length of sound. Area under the curve if you will. Loud and slow = bad. Loud and fast = not great. Quite and Slow = good. Fast and quiet = best. If the last is possible.
Damn TH-cam.... I NEVER saw this one!!
So true how we CANNOT predict how deer will react to sound. Example: I shot a doe with my muzzleloader at 20 yards. Ka-BOOM and a big cloud of smoke. Some of the other deer took off, then stopped. I had 3 or 4 at 10 yards and closer that just stood there. I actually got reloaded and would have had another except my ramrod hit my barrel and the "clink" made them all run off!
It really is unpredictable, when my brother shot his buck is Nevada a couple years ago, 5 other deer just stood there he shot 4 times. We watched them walk away after he yelled in excitement from the deer going down. It was wild!
Thanks for sharing!
This is very useful information. I’ll definitely be applying it to my set up. I’m not trying to step on any toes but Dr.Grant Woods from growing deer tv has a good video on this same subject. It helped me tremendously.
This is an awesome video. Thank you for this.
Glad you enjoyed it! Thanks for watching more videos to come.
Let discuss the phrase “animal movement is unpredictable”. I would agree that the amount of movement can be unpredictable. But I would argue that the direction of movement is predictable.
Let us use a common Whitetail Deer shot at broadside while standing. The first movement can only be one direction and that is down. It must load its legs in order to move any other direction. The second direction is always away. I am not saying that it has never happened, but I think you would be hard pressed to ever find any consistency to deer that reacted to the bow/arrow and turned towards the arrow or backed up. The movement is always the same. It’s down and away. Now the “away” may be forward or directly away or in most cases a combination. But again, the direction of movement is very predictable.
So, if the movement is always in the same direction does this affect our set-up? I am not sure, but less discuss one interesting point. The big justification for shooting a heavy arrow for whitetails is this notion of hitting heavy bone. So, let us look at what that is in regards to the front end (near the vitals) of a whitetail. I think it is safe to say that pretty much everyone agrees that ribs are not heavy bones and don’t need a heavy arrow. I’d also bet most would say the same thing about the upper scapula. Now the lower part of the scapula where it meets the humerus definitely gets thick and heavy. The humorous joint, the humerus it’s self I think would be considered heavy bone. But other than that, there really isn’t much for heavy bone around the front vitals of a whitetail. And what there is really only cover what, maybe 20% of the of the vitals?
So, let’s couple two key points together and see where the discussion leads us. It sure seems like we know if the deer moves, we know where it is going. It also seems like there is not really much for heavy bone covering the heart/lung vital area. So, let’s combine those two key details into one analogy. That analogy is, that if a deer moves, it’s actually going to move the heavy bone away from the arrow, not towards. Again, we are talking about the side shot, not a frontal. The heavy bone will always go down first and away second. It’s never coming up first or back into the shot. So it sure would seem that one of the factors to consider when building an arrow for deer movement would not be hitting heavy bone. It sure seems like that would be one of the last factors you would consider.
I’d also be willing to bet it you talk to guys that have shot a lot of whitetails, that hitting heavy bone during their shot is not their first concern. I bet it is not even close to the top of the list. The deer movement is absolutely at the top of the list. But I bet they do not hit heavy very often or even. I know quite a few whitetail bow hunters and some that have shot a ton of deer. Hitting the hard bone of the humerus or humerus joint is never even a topic of discussion.
So, I guess the question is, why is it now after decades of guys killing millions of whitetails with bell curve weight arrows is it anywhere near the top of the list. Or for that matter even in the discussion? Why is arrow weight even such a big topic when the guys that have been killing a ton of deer for a lot of years keep saying over and over again that it’s not all that important. They keep saying that if you shoot a bell curve weight arrow and hit them in the kill zone, you will have the best odds of success.
I couldn't agree more. Ranch Fairy propagated this myth "The animal has a vote". Of course it does - no one is making that argument. It's just hand waving. What happens is as you described - down and away. The magnitude of which is determined by the time given for the animal to react.
Great question, why is it such a question still. My guess would be that generally people start looking for answers when they have an experience with poor penetration on a shot they felt was vital bone or no bone. In my opinion having a truly tuned bow is probably the biggest problem, the experts I usually see always mention shooting through paper at x feet with fletched arrows. But that’s just a starting point. Most pro shops agree it’s a starting point but don’t tell the customer. We should all do some form of additional tuning broadhead, bareshaft, walk back, French, group, pick your poison. Then check that tune often because bows wear. If you still have penetration issues then consider what arrow and broadhead you are shooting. Thanks for watching sorry I didn’t see your comment sooner.
I shoot a 430 grain total weight, 125 grain swhacker hybrid. They doo the deal for sure.
One thing that I find interesting is that every string jump video I've seen has been a shot at a deer or animal that they have alerted. I am convinced that string jump is not near as much of an issue when shooting a relaxed animal that you have not alerted of your presence. Every deer I've shot (not alerting them) has hit where I was aiming, and ranging from 20 - 43 yards. I've never seen on move significantly before the arrow was either penetrating them or darn close to it. Also, most of those were shot with an arrow going 210 fps, and a few at 230 fps. I would choose to shoot a slowly walking animal without stopping them, instead of alerting them. If moving at more than a slow speed I would probably try to stop them, but your chances are slimmer either way in that case.
I have not had issues with animals moving either. It's simply another topic to consider. I know my wife's bow at 210fps is nearly silent! I almost considered shooting 60lbs instead of 70 for my new bow. I guess pride got the better of me.
@leap_outdoors my old bowcwas an old mathews feathermax. it shot very accurately but was LOUD, yet still never had a deer jump the string. I really think the #1 issue with string jump is if the deer is alert & on edge, or relaxed & oblivious. it takes more time to go from relaxed to register there's a threat & then move, than it does to move when already alerted.
This is great stuff and excellent timing for me because the last couple of weeks I've been experimenting with a light/fast arrow build for my trad bow using microdiameter shafts and smaller fletching profiles. I'm shooting about 200fps and getting the best flight characteristics at 450gn. Bow is very quiet at 10gpp. I'm impressed how much flatter/faster trajectory these arrows have vs. my normal 640gn heavies out of the same bow.
I definitely subscribed to your channel...great job!
Thanks for the sub!
Good info. I had no idea what I was doing when I started archery hunting. I was shooting a 308 grain arrow + 100 grain grim reaper, with a 62lb draw. I killed a lot of deer with that setup.
Now I'm at 70lbs, and 402 total grains. 😂
In reality a well tuned arrow is all you need for deer happy hunting!
Love your scientific approach 👍😁
God Bless 🙏😇❤️🇺🇸😊
Thank you kindly! God bless!
Thank you
I'm fascinated by this! It's reignited my interest in physics since high school. ChatGTP couldn't explain why the Ottomans used an arrow with unique characteristics, like 0 FOC and low GPP, along with barrel taper and tanged arrowheads. Your videos have me speculating that these arrows were designed for close-range, possibly swift-moving targets, with high impact resistance. While the mystery isn't fully solved, I'm replicating some museum examples for further analysis. I'd love to hear your thoughts on how this arrow design compares to modern shafts in terms of distance, speed, and penetration.
I’ll have to look into that! Sounds cool! Can you send me some background for me to read on the specific arrows and bows you are looking at? I’d love to look into that further! Thanks, Lucas
@@Lucas_Palmer_bownerd_engineer I'll find you some stuff! YT doesn't let me share a PDF haha stay tuned!
@@amirg5912 lucaspalmer7@gmail.com if you want to send me an email feel free.
Great video. Love your illustrations and you always make it so easy to understand.
I look forward to hearing you talk about vanes as I am interested in replacing my blazer vanes with something that might have less weight and more quiet, while still being able to stabilize a 1 1/4 inch diameter 125gr 3 bladed fixed-blade broadhead.
Awesome, thank you! My goal is a video about every two weeks. Wind tunnel might be out a little from that.
I started using the TAC driver 2.75 and I also messed with the super Sabre vanes. Both are great and quiet. Also they hold a flat arrow at longer distance compared to max hunters and blazers. Hope this helps
👌bear razorhead 250 gr. Tuffhead dangerous game 400 gr.
I just didnt want recurve /longbow shooters to potentially break their bows from too light of an arrow ..We need generally 10-15 grains per pound to let the bow and string work together not against each other(bow wants to keep flexing or opening and the string wont let it)..And just as a shameless plug here all need to check out Crimson Talon many would like the Battle AXe ,or new single bevel , croc or C-2 very affordable, durable and easy to sharpen ssingle bevel or double bevel raditional heads..Lusk archery does a great review of all of them..
Thank you for pointing this out! I should make this more clear most of what I have done is from the prospective of compound bows. There are many additional factors to consider with traditional equipment. But regardless all bows have a generally recommended minimum grains per inch of draw weight for the bow to be safe. Thank you for the broadhead recommendation, I have some Crimson Talon cleavers that will be in my testing. John Lusk does a great job with his reviews!
Great video thanks
Glad you enjoyed it
You assume the Deer always react to bow noise. A lot of time they see the movement of your arm when you release. 300+FPS is forgiving when ranging. 350+FPS is better. I recommend all hunters shoot 3D till they can get through the course without losing an arrow. God Bless, C.
Thanks for watching! Great point! Visual cues only have the reaction time delay instead of the time for sound to travel so the animal would react faster! That’s a great point thank you for sharing! Take care Lucas
Nice video I would be interested if you could test fletching noise and also if feathers are quieter then fletchings
Unfortunately probably not in the wind tunnel I think the fan will be too loud, however I do plan on doing indoor and outdoor noise test with the vanes.
Feathers are definitely louder , parabolic are slightly quieter then shield cut but not super significant at 4 in sizes.👍 trad vanes are quieter 🏹🎯😁👍
Now do the math for a recurve and compound that may only be going 200 fps max at the bow (recurve) vs Compound 310(fps) as well as what it chrono graphed speed at 30yrads .And the impact or KE loss of a rage type vs a scalpel sharp single bevel long profile head that will most likely hit ribs (passing between them is pure luck) due to arrow spin..A fly wont hurt at 210 fps much but a bb will at the same speed..Energy transfer
I have done a lot of those calculations, mass and a good broad head win for penetration every time! I have a couple other videos on penetration, FOC, and downrange energy that might interest you.
Any VERY LIGHT arrow which
leaves the bow at 330 fps,
is NOT going to be anywhere near
330 fps when it is 40 yards away.
Absolutely! Drag was accounted for in the time to target calculation!
Are those arrow speeds actual or calculated? They seem off by a factor of two which would drastically change your results.
3 of the arrows are shot out of my prime revex 4 set at 70lbs, 29.5in draw, the 500 grain 210 fps is out of my wife's bow prime nexus 25in draw at about 43 lbs. All shot through my chrono.
@@Lucas_Palmer_bownerd_engineer With all due respect, don’t you think that using massively different bows would bias your calculations? It seems to me you would want to use the same bow for heavier and lighter arrow comparison. Otherwise you are actually comparing bows as much if not more than arrow weight. In other words, you are mostly comparing the velocity delta of different bows. Am I incorrect?
Great question! Yes and No. I wanted to include a light poundage setup as I have had many comments saying "this is great but I'm not getting those speeds at that weight" this is usually due to a shorter draw, lower poundage, older equipment or a combinations. For time to target calculations the arrow velocity is the biggest factor while weight does change it slightly it is minimal. For the animal movement graphs it's much more related to the velocity so individuals could compare their setups with the illustrations based on launch velocity. to get an idea of how their setups would perform. I did highlight, in the video, that two different bows were used. I did this so that the 210 fps didn't seem like such an outlier especially only being 500 grains. So if my bow shot a 890 grain arrow which should be close to 210fps this would perform similar to my wife's 500 grain arrow at the same speed. Unfortunately every calculation I do has to be for a specific bow and arrow. There are some that I can present a percentage based value of change which would apply to all setups.
Thanks for responding again! What you just said was that you are comparing bows, not arrow weight. But you are then using that to say heavy arrows are significantly slower. I’m sorry to say this but I think it invalidates the conclusion you came to. I would think you would just want to run the full analysis with one bow and then do it again with the other. That would yield the results people are looking for. Another way of thinking about it is that this comparison is actually more about swapping bows, and not so much about arrow weight. I appreciate what the work this takes you and what you are trying to do for others so please understand I’m trying to be helpful and not unjustly negative.
😎
There's a short video on YT from Paige Pearce showing a miss on a deer at 35 yards where the arrow arrives at the perfect height however the deer has enough time to react and completely duck under it: th-cam.com/video/jQ-Qa4w-xKc/w-d-xo.html
All of these archery education series videos are brilliant but they centre around the results from a "perfect shot". What I'd be interested in knowing is the difference in "margins of error" between light and heavy arrow setups. When shooting a multi-pin sight the pin gaps are bigger with a slower arrow setup. This would indicate that slight errors in shot execution would have a worse effect down range with a heavier arrow. Perhaps a video showing the effects of different arrows speeds vs different margins of error in the shot execution. I'm not referring to wild mistakes but being just fractions of a degree off in shot execution (like say a movement of the bow up or down by 1/10th of a degree).
I tried to account for margin in the latest video there is a 5 in diameter of margin. However I do understand your point. This is going to be really difficult to quantify from a math perspective because it’s shooter error that we are discussing. But I’ll look into and see if there is a fair evaluation I could apply to all arrow weights.
Thank you for the comment!
that's a dead elk if they don't make a sound and just take the shot when he turns broadside as he was doing. Why alert an animal of your presence when it's just standing there grazing... she's a great shooter, but that's a poor decision.
@@Lucas_Palmer_bownerd_engineer Definitely a difficult prospect factoring in margins of error into the videos you've already done. I think your previous videos stand on their own merits. What I'm thinking is a separate video that just focuses solely on margins of error and the down range effect comparing different arrow weights/poundage setups, different distances, and different margins of error in the shot. For the latter variable I'm thinking margins of error could be measured in various fractions of a degree. It could also be thought of as the effect these parameters have on group size.
As an example I remember seeing a World Archery video which mentioned a 2mm movement in Olympic recurve archery resulted in something like a 40cm difference in impact point at 70m which is huge. Then again that's a pretty long distance shot with a bow that's probably generating only 200fps.
@@Makka316 he did do one video on range error.
@@TheArrowBuilder Awesome. Thanks for pointing that out - I'm not sure how I missed it. That video is a similar but slightly different perspective to what I'm thinking about but definitely useful info to know.
there is no way to know how any one animal is gonna move or even which way they will move the difference in what some call light or heavy arrows getting to the animal is so minute that it dont matter if the animal ducks the string it dont matter what arrow you shoot plus the heavy arrow makes the shot not as loud not to mention every setup is not the same my 550 grain arrow is going 289 fps not 263 fps. lot of work put into this but really for nothing as its all a guess. I will stick with a more heavy arrow for when the shot is not perfect or when the animal moves cause I cant control what the animal does but I can stack the odds in my favor. I have seen way to many light arrows fail to get deep enough on any bone even with my own hunting. that has never been an issue since I went to 650 now 550 grains..
Absolutely arrow mass is better for penetration no disputing that videos 2-5 of this series talk on that exact thing. 289 at 550 grains is sweet you shooting over 70lbs? Also the conclusion that I came to in the video is the light arrows only perform better at short distances and only from the perspective of animals ability to move anything past that and the animal can beat the arrow every time if it decides to move. I think a heavy setup is great! Shoot what you like. Thanks for the feedback.
yes shooting 80 pounds at 29 inches as I read that back I sound like A-hole so sry about that im glad you put in the hard work in the sport I love just saw the wind drift one good stuff thx...@@Lucas_Palmer_bownerd_engineer
@@jasonard7227 hey its all good! I try not to read emotion into these things. Thanks just trying to share information for everyone to make their own decision. Everything has pros and a cons. Take care, Lucas
Common sense tells you light arrows win without all those equations, unnecessary work there champ. Light arrows win in speed but heavy arrows win when it comes to penetration! There saved you a lot of time and effort, does not take a rocket scientist to know these things.
haha I agree! Yet it's still heavily contested so I thought I'd share the math. Thanks for watching check out the other videos in the series if you haven't maybe something will surprise you, but I doubt it.
Nice work but not all deer react to the shot, or drop or jump. Some do but majority do not. So the risk of arrow placement lower than normal according to other videos does not weigh out the risk of a missed shot on a deer that doesn’t move. As in being to low of a shot. And accounting some type of room for error in the shot itself. I believe center mass in the vitals is the most ethnical shot to take.
Absolutely, I touched on this in the video as well animal movement in unpredictable, we have to aim for where the animal is not where it may end up! Thanks for watching
OMG how did the native American ever survive, feed and clothe himself and his family without modern compound bows and lightweight carbon arrows?
Haha! Great question! I’m betting skill far beyond any modern hunter.
Totally, you should make a your own bow, arrows, and broadhead from materials you find in wild and go hunt. Let me know how it goes .
@@keithwhite513 there still are cultures that do exactly this to survive...
Large animal populations and density , small human populations at low density, and unsportsmanlike hunting practices. They were concerned with their own survival, we are concerned with conservation of game species.
@@wezelofone lol... completely missed the point.. carry on convincing yourself your saving the world by killing critters, and save your reply, I also Hunt and fish and I can do it with traditional gear without being unethical...