HEAVY or LIGHT ARROWS // T E S T I N G
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
- HEAVY or LIGHT ARROWS // T E S T I N G.. We are tinkering and testing arrow flight with different weights and feet per second. This is part of our deep dive into technical archery this year! #ElkShape #Testing #kidsarrows
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For anyone who wants to come on here and remind us about Dr. Ashby this or that.. Remember Dr. Ashby did his studies with a trad bow 170ish FPS and probably 30lbs of kinetic energy.. We're doing part 2 of this conversation and deep dive Monday with MFJJ.. stay tuned - Tim & Dan .. And as always you should do whatever is best for you.
Great thing about Dr. Ashby that most seem to forget is that in his study he says do what works for you. He highlights things that are important to most when it comes to arrows and broadheads.
It appeared the bow got louder as the arrow got heavyier
@@brianthompsen661 I shoot traditional and notice the opposite. What you could be hearing is the fact that he is severely under spined for the heavier heads
Math doesn't know what bow you're shooting. with your draw you should shoot the heaviest arrow that you can and keep a trajectory that is acceptable. I am shooting a X-impact with 115gr Ethics and 150gr Ironwill. PSE EVO NXT LD at 81lbs 31in draw. Total arrow is 639gr. flying at 273fps. You have to take draw length into consideration. It is much easier to get a 27in arrow to fly than a 30in. If I tried to shoot a 300spine with 475gr total weight at 324fps they will not group anywhere near what my set up does let alone the energy differance. Btw I'm in AZ
@@elementsofnature6186 that is a sweet setup. Glad you're digging it. Draw length gains for sure - tC
Love that you guys are doing this, because we all should. Knowing why you’re shooting what you shoot builds confidence. Plus, I’ve come down from 615g to 598. So I’m basically shooting a light arrow now!
I’m 31” draw on the ventum 33 and shooting in the high 250s FPS with an arrow that is 586 to 594 grains depending on 3 fletch blazers or 4 fletch heat vanes. I don’t see a difference in impact point out to 80 yards between the two arrows. I think if I drop down to 570 ish grains I’d be in the upper 260s speed wise. I can say that my arrows I’m shooting right now (with field points) are not affected by wind very much, which I like. As long as I’m ranged properly the long distances are not an issue, even with wind. I think with heavy arrows you just have to have things ranged well. As long as you have that, they perform really well. I personally wouldn’t want to drop below the 250s FPS so if my draw length were shorter I’d be shooting a lighter arrow to get me in the 250s or higher speed.
Not hating on you for your arrow weight, but it's not an accurate test. It's an exaggerated test, because you didn't sight in each one at 20. The extra trajectory at 20 really makes the gaps closer farther out. Going from 410 to 525, my pin gaps didn't hardly change at all. I could shoot 108y inside the Oracle sight housing with 410gr and I can shoot like 100-101y with 525gr. My 30-60 pins didn't move hardly at all. I think my impact was ~4" low at 60. Again, not hating on the arrow weight you ended up with (I shoot 475 or 525, even for whitetail), but just a test engineer pointing out a test that isn't a legitimate "apples to apples" test. I'm shooting an Evoke 31 at 65#, 29.5" draw.
@Supercreech it's only 23fps (274fps to 297fps) different, and the arrows are the same diameter. The 410 are gold tip .246 .340 spine and the 525 are .244 .300 spine. Also, since the heavier arrows keep velocity better against aero drag, they're probably only 12-15fps slower at 60) Actually, the 525gr arrows I'm using this year are micro diameter.
@Supercreech I'm just telling you what mine ran through a chronograph with weighed arrows, and what the trajectory difference is. If it was a big deal to trajectory or speed, and didn't make the bow like half the volume, I wouldn't have switched.
@Supercreech this is on both of my chronographs and the one at the archery shop.
@bartonmd
This! Yes thank you! You explained what I could visualize and struggled to put into words.
Your changing the spine by changing the point weight which I'm sure you realize. You will need to tune the bow to each spine change to really test flight efficiency.
It’s better to tune a arrow to the bow
The only time you tune an arrow to a bow is if your shooting trad equipment or a very, very old compound that has very limited tuning. No disrespect, but anyone who shoots a modern compound and tunes the arrow to the bow has no clue what they're doing.
@@bmills231 Lol what?? If your bow is in tune you tune the arrow to the bow.
You tune a bow, not an arrow. Sure, you can play with spine, shaft length, point weight, fetching, etc. but that's building an arrow for your tuned setup, not "tuning". The only reason I mentioned "Tuning" an arrow in my previous comment, which should have had quotes around the word, was because when you can't tune a bow i.e. a trad bow, you build arrows that "tune" well for the bow. If your bow is in tune (modern compound) then you "build" arrows for your tuned setup.
@@bmills231 I think we're meaning the same thing however there's more to tuning an arrow you can cut it to change the spine slightly also knock tuning is a thing
The statement "I'm just trying to find that right balance!" should be reiterated over and over again! IMHO - doesn't matter if you're shooting 20 yards from a treestand or 60 yards in the mountains.... finding the right balance is the key.
I have been shooting 425 grain arrow for years, I hunt alberta shoot moose,elk bear,mule deer and whitetail and have pass through on everything unless I hit off side shoulder, and that's out to 70 yards on game, I definitely like the less trajectory drop, and still get great flight and no issues with penitration
Great video as always.. I think the best thing the RF has done is bring out the fact that the industry may have been getting away from proven archery basics and caught up in unproven innovation not based on proper testing to just sell a product.. ie; latest and greatest.
If you don’t re zero every arrow aren’t you artificially inflating the drop between each arrow? If you have a 4 inch drop because you’re zero at 460gr, and you don’t re zero for 660 you’ll have a larger drop between the two vs the drop if you zero for the 660? Obviously the 660 will drop more, but aren’t the numbers a little skewed?
Obviously heavier arrows will drop more but if you go through the process of setting all your pins you will notice a much much more even consistent spread between pins. That's what you said you were looking for righr?
Wouldn't you need to adjust the spine in order to tune the arrow to get an accurate representation for this test. An under spined arrow will fly significantly less accurately than an appropriate spined arrow in conjunction to arrow weight and speed.
Yes you would. Shooting an un-tuned arrow and claiming any sort of relevance is nonsense.
Except a tuned arrow still can't levitate
Solid video, I run a 450ish grain 300 spine arrow for whitetail. No issues at all. Shooting 70lbs at 28.5inch draw
I don’t even care... I now play the video with the audio on... and my wife in the room.
That’s the highest level of bow hunting geekdom that you inspire.
Thanks!
Awesome video. I shoot an BowTech RPM 360 at 70lbs. I have a shorter draw at 28, and shoot a 509gr arrow 16% FOC at 272fps; 83ftlbs of energy. I also have some gold tip velocity's that are about 400gr and they shoot waaaay flatter. But for me 500gr seems to be a sweet spot of bow noise and flight for me.
Those are really sweet numbers on your setup.. 275 FPS seems to be a sweet spot for fixed blade flight and tuning - TC
@@ElkShape yeah I've noticed the same. With the lighter setup I couldn't get good fixed blade broadhead flight, and I hunt Idaho. Looks like our setups are in spitting distance of each other. Great minds or something :-p
Shoot that gives you confidence mate, I killed my elk with 55lb recurve bow (probably about 52lb at my Hobbit 26 inch draw length) 635g total arrow weight. Frontal shot, buried to the nock. Dead 20 metres from impact Point. Now shooting 80lb compound and I'm building 680g. Sure I've got wide pin gaps but I'm happy with that.
How can you shoot a 340 spine arrow at 75 pounds with a 600 grain arrow and consider that a valid test?
The best trajectory is the one that drops in, cuts ON CONTACT, breaks bone, severes arteries, makes a wide exit wound and drains blood quickly. Proper spine, aligned with length and weight up front (and rear) are the start of ABT. There are usually 3 sacrificial arrows built to achieve true and sought after trajectory/flight. ABT
I'm with you on the 420 to 480 range it's a great number. If you're only slamming 20 yard shots at animals under a feeder then 800 grains is great.. but remember if you shoot a peep sight and shoot under 650 grains you are not a man.
Good content for the people that dont have much time or resource to tinker that much. I think that 270-280fps is the sweet spot. I run 505gr at 280fps.
Couldn't agree more. Try not to have an arrow speed much higher than 280 and no lower than 265.
I've been watching your vids for a while, but wanting a bow that will shoot a light weight arrow flat out to 70 yards so your pins are tight and you have "less chance of missing" is not an ethical concept for archery in my opinion. I have ALWAYS viewed archery as a close quarters sport and want my archery gear to be able to deliver the "most lethal" arrow possible at a close range that I am proficient at. Trying to stretch the distance as far as possible by using light weight arrows encourages others to be confident in long range shots with less than lethal arrows. Use a rifle if you want to shoot 70 yards. This video pretty much just showed that a heavier arrow will drop more at a further distance. I hope the remaining tinkering and testing is more on what's really the best arrow for a lethal kill on big game.
WORD!!!!!!!
Good video. Agree w you on this. Trade offs for heavy arrow. Even on whitetail trajectory matters . I guess I understand the heavy arrow argument but don't agree. Balance for sure. Not too heavy not too light.
460 gr, x-impact,14.8 FOC....works for me for everything
Love the tinkering! I like having a mix between you guys and RF. It's very informative and both of you guys are doing great work. So much info out there now on arrows. I feel like it used to be all about the bows and now people are talking more about what is actually hitting the animal. RF did a video with radar at 60 yards so we can see what the fps is when it hits 60. Basically the heavier arrows, although they have a wider trajectory, they lose less speed the father they go. Always good find that balance for yourself.
I'm of the mindset of use what you are comfortable with, shot placement trumps everything else. I however like the forgiveness I get with my 600grain arrow set up if I were to mess up my shot just a little bit. people just need to get a setup they like.
Well put, there's no 1 magic arrow that does everything perfectly.
Confidence is king.
I’m shooting 750 grains at 248 FPS. It’s a bit slow but gives me over 100 lbs of KE and most importantly, .82 slugs of momentum. Allows for more shot angles considering not many bones are gonna stop that. I’m hoping to get the FPS closer to 265 with that same weight with my next bow.
The nice thing about a heavy arrow is that if you can get it flying fast, they keep their speed for a longer period of time.
At 248fps if you are off at all judging yardages you will completely miss stuff. Don’t matter how much bone breaking power you have if the animal isn’t there when the arrow gets there. I’ve missed and wounded more animals from them not in the saMe spot they were when I released them I did from lack of bone busting penetration
Y’all should have measured the noise differences on the bow with the different weights. I do hunt more deer then elk but with the 600g setup I notice the deer don’t react to the bow going off with the heavy setup vs the light 350g setup.
Helpful and informative! As a female bow hunter, I can't shoot the super heavy arrows and have been wondering about the effectiveness of lighter arrows. Thanks! This gives me a little more confidence!
Of course.. We're doing a follow up to this, part 2 on Monday! hope it helps - TC
Just experiment as much as you can with different weight arrows. There are no rules. Many an animal has been shot through and though with lite or average weight arrows. I'm 70 and have been killing critters with every type arrow since 1963. You will find the best combination of draw weight for you and the best arrow weight that gives you max speed and trajectory. Maybe you're pulling 45#s and that perfectly fine. There are several different arrow weights that will work. Remember your killing arrows don't have to go 290 fps. That's macho stuff for those that can. My current set up is an Elite Ritual 54#s. Arrow speed is only 263 fps. 👍👍🏹
If poundage, draw length and arrow speed are low then a heavier arrow with more momentum is generally a better option than lighter arrow. Similar to the concept behind an arrow build for a trad bow. If your KE is already low at least you can have momentum. High poundage, more efficient bow setups have a greater range where momentum and KE are both high.
@@bmills231 I agree. I have 2 bows at 37 lbs , 25", and get pass throughs on whitetails with heavier arrows, but not with light arrows. Fixed blade heads also help.
The lighter your draw weight the more important having as much momentum as possible.
Keep up the great work! 👍🏻
Got me thinking about moving back to 340’s. 🤓
Love it guys. Even as a predominantly whitetail hunter from a treestand in the Midwest, I’ve always been against this “heavy as possible” arrow fad. Seeing the velocity drop offs is just insane. Hunters will pay thousands every year for a bow with an IBO of like 10FPS more than what they have and then put an arrow together that drops it 50-60FPS. That heavy arrow doesn’t mean crap when a big ol’ whitey ducks you a foot at 25 yards and you find your arrow with back hair and nothing else.
White tails can duck an arrow they don’t hear...which they can’t when your bow is efficient because of the bigger payload.
@@interestedmeow if you believe that a whitetail can’t hear your bow go off at 25 yards I don’t think there is anything I can do to help you. Maybe in a wind storm or something but on a calm day...nope. They can hear a twig snap at a 100 yards and you think a 100 grains of arrow weight difference is going to make your bow silent to a deer?
On the flip side...there isn't a bow fast enough to beat a whitetails reaction time! Basically, shoot a solid setup and be a great hunter and don't try to buy success. Archery is supposed to be limiting.
I have a question: based on your setup, and my experience with with my own setup (I shoot a 27.5 in draw, 75 lb weight, 250 spine victory RIP TKO with a 65 GR insert and 200 GR broadhead). When paper tuning I ran into issues with becoming underspined at approximately 275 grains or heavier total up front (broadhead and insert). Could shooting underspined add to drop you were experiencing? Or would arrow spine not affect the efficiency and total drop at distance?
My guy. You don’t need pins close together. The kill zone on an elk is 10-11” tall right? Starting at the point of the shoulder.
Use two pieces of tape, put them 11” a part on a target, vertically. Here’s where the tinkering comes in. Aiming only at the bottom tape, you should be able to use a single pin (likely your 50yard pin) to hit in that kill zone at almost any distance between 20 and 50. Trust me and just try it. True single pin hunting.
Cool cool - glad thats working for you!
I run around 470 grains. Have had zero problems for elk. Heavy arrows do hit harder but there is a cost. It’s really a fine line with each bow and arrow combo. Remember when you are adding longer inserts and collars you are effectively shortening the arrow shaft and changing the spine. Keep tinkering! I’ve been doing that for 40 years.
You bet!
I shoot 460 grain, and can kill everything in North america pretty much. I'm not hunting Africa game, so 460 is plenty. and other than things like Cape buffalo, 460 grains would kill most african game
I've always tinkered with arrow weights my self years past I've shot arrows that weighted 430 plus grains down to as low as 372 grains off 70lb bows. This year I bought my first 80 lb bow and I'll be using 682 grain arrows for deer and elk hunting out west . Going to be exciting to see what kind of penetration I'll be getting . I'm shooting 28.5 inch draw Prime nexus 2 and Sirius Vulcan arrows topped off with a 125 grain samurai overkill by grizzly stik up front
Will you be running any tests to see the difference in drop between the arrows that are both sited in? Ie pin set at 60 for each arrow weight then the difference between the two if you shoot at 65-70 like when an animal takes a few steps? There is obviously a difference between the weights when shooting from a tape set at the lighter weight. Love the ABT
Looking good. That convinced me that keeping it fast is where it's at for me.
Thanks for the replies all I am saying is get an arrow that is flying true with a strong broadhead. Me I like high FOC. To give an example my wife shot a deer with a 45lb bow arrow about 450 gr foc was 25 % roughly I believe ( 100 grain ethics insert and 150 grain broadhead. Blew through the deer hit a rock on the other side, bent the ethics insert and tip of a bishop broadhead slightly. Yes only a deer but had plenty left over. Arrow was an rip 400 . So I agree with you on weight within reason but use what flies good for you and is tough. We should strive for a clean kill .
I'm confused, if your talking about various arrow weights shouldn't you use various arrow weights instead of just adding or subtracting weight up front? Doesn't that basically just change the foc? Shouldn't it be say a 400 grain with 14%foc compared to a 500 grain with 14%foc so on and so on?
What’s crazy is a 455 gr arrow @ 296 fps is still dropping 13” between 50 and 55 yards. I don’t know if I would be comfortable with that drop shooting at a moving elk, or one that has moved before ranging again. As a reference a 655 gr @ 230 fps drops 20” between 50 and 55 yds. If you look at the drop from 60 to 65 yds for that 455 gr it is 15” and the 655 gr is still around 20”. Neither of those make me feel comfortable shooting at a moving target from that distance. Enjoyed the content… well done.
My RX1 Ultra (29"/70#) is my 700-825 gr heavy weight arrow rig. My V3 31 is my 500-650 medium weight arrow rig. I dont shoot under 500 grains.
Light arrows for target and heavy arrows for hunting
Sensible
438 grain Easton 6.5 Matrix, 70lb Bowtech Carbon one 29.5 inch draw, 125 grain G5 Deadmeat is my elk setup this year? Always carry one slick trick viper trick for the thick stuff.
Yeah my light arrows work every time until they don't when they hit large bones. THAT'S THE ENTIRE POINT OF USING HEAVY BROADHEADS/ARROWS. That way any angle becomes ethical. Pin gaps causing you problems? COMPLAIN LESS - TRAIN MORE. If you put so much training into everything else why aren't you using your decades of experience to help dictate your training? Learn your gaps, spend the time, quit using excuses and get it done. No matter what your setup is you have to learn how to use it effectively, so why not learn it with a heavy broadhead? Always be tinkering right? Or does that only apply to sub 500gr arrows?
My arrows are right at 420 grains, im not changing either way, just to good imo
Well done. Just the facts Jack. No preaching, no hate, no BS. Well done imho.
I know I'm late to this party, but here are my thoughts. I'm just a midwest whitetail hunter and I've always shot aluminum "Lincoln Logs" (560ish gn.), why.... because I'm "thrifty". With that said, weight and trajectory aren't so much my issue, it's always been the broadheads. Mechanicals that fail or those "razor sharp" skinny blades that are beat to hell from a rib hit. For '23 I'm really making a conscious decision to come up with my perfect arrow. Weight and speed doesn't matter, but I have found that 15-17% FOC tend to fly the best out of my old Martin. So, I'm going to try to build 2 separate carbon arrows while staying around those parameters or above and see how it goes. The single major change I will be making is going to a single bevel cut on contact.
That was a nice little comparison and I get where you're trying to go with it. Keep up the good work. Somewhere between what you and Troy are doing is probably the true sweet spot.
I appreciate your time for ABT! I've been learning quite a bit thank you for publishing your videos.
Of course, thanks for hanging out
As a fellow shooter with the draw length of a t rex, my arrow build is right in line with yours. 452gr total and the match grade .001 axis.
Lol ol' t-rex draw..
Interesting to see the difference in drop - or trajectory at 60m using sights for 460 gr arrow. What you did show is why we have pins or sights on bows and why you need to set them in for different arrow weights. I would be keen to see the bow sighted in properly for arrow weights and shot at 60m with a 60m pin - then you move 5m forward and 5m backwards - 55m and 65 m and then shoot using the same 60m pin. Is that gap so much worse for a heavier arrow using the appropriate pin? Remember Dr Ed says shoot the heaviest arrow within the trajectory you are comfortable with - and this will differ depending on the type of hunting. I would rather use my 375 for a 150m shot than a 700 nitro express - but at 25m - no contest.
Shit...I use 100 gn brass inserts with a 200gn tip/broadhead and that alone brings me to 300g total not counting shaft. Most of my arrows are 28 1/2'' cut and after complete build up weighing around 650- to 680 gn easy with some over 700 gr. That's with an FOC coming in around 24-29% depending on my shaft builds. That there drops my buck and or boars on the spot if not less than 20 yrds recovering them after getting nailed. Thank you Ranch Fairy! That's the King of FOC.
This topic and arguments around it are interesting. I have killed two Colorado bulls at 43 and 72 yards. Both with 400grn arrows. The 43 yard was a high angle downhill shot, entered high lung and poked out the bottom. We found that bull about 300 yards downhill from the impact zone. the 72 was a heart shot through the leg and I got almost 16" of penetration, measured on the broken side of the arrow. The elk was down within 15 seconds of the shot. I only took this shot because it was wide open, no wind, and the bull had not moved in over 5 minutes. I took almost 40 seconds to break the shot. I have had no problem with high velocity, flatter shooting arrows. Sample size is small, of course, but real life non target results. Both with 100grn 2" shwacker. I don't want to take long shots ever, but I practice out to 100 with consistency. As a long range rifle hunter with kills out to 700 I want high speed, flat shooting, high b.c. hunting rounds, and I hunt with a 6.5 saum. Again, no problems with ethical kills. That background is why I pursued a HV high FOC arrow setup.
This will always be just like the Ford vs Chevy argument. Everyone will have a setup they think is better. I'm blessed with a 30.5" draw so I can get far more speed than most. I too want a good balance of speed and arrow weight. My set up gives 543 grn. doing 288 fps @ 75#. I would push up to 600 grn. if I could, but my arrow flight began to suffer so I dropped back down to a 150 point. I do think you're robbing yourself some speed with that much helical though ;)
It's interesting to hear different people's opinions. You, Cory Jacobson, etc. go lighter. Remi Warren, Born and Raised guys, etc. go super heavy. I'm in the middle @ 530gn. We all kill elk. Imo it's about finding what works best with your bow and priorities. It's all give and take.
hahahahahaha........i mean people can do whatever they want, including being wrong. Light, heavy, medium have all killed all kinds of animals in many different situations. But the hilarious thing about this video is how much it misses the point of heavy vs light. The reason is penetration not arrow drop. That's a practice and know your limits video. I feel like this video was trying to prove gravity exists. lol. Of course lighter setups will give you accuracy at longer ranges. But a couple things to consider. Western hunting open plains or in the thickest Oregon jungle, the average shot on an elk is about 23-28 yds, but let's double it, at 46 yds and you can still shoot a 900 grain setup very very effectively. So if distance is the most important factor, then yeah, go a head and shoot light. But if organ destruction and a quick death is the end game, science has simply proven that a single bevel two blade very sharp broadhead on a 600 grain arrow with about 19% FOC will destroy any animal alive more effectively than a light setup and mechanicals. And it's simply no contest. That's not to say shooting light is bad, it has great application. It's only showing that heavier setups are superior penetrators / killer setups for the majority of shots (40 yds or less).
The bottom line in bowhunting always has been and will be this: it's not about when things go right.....it's about when they go wrong. Teenagers shooting barely 40 lb bows (and actually far less than that) can kill in elk in mere seconds with any setup even including a field point (yes, people argue that, but it's a fact, field points can kill big game) when things go right and they are hit well. The reason to shoot an adult arrow (heavy) and a heavy thick cut on contact broadhead is two fold. First off, if you do that it will indeed limit your shooting range and keep you focused on being a good hunter, not just a good shot. But the second and more important thing it does is to give you insurance when things don't go as planned. Any one, who's hunted long enough with light speedy equipment (including myself) will have a tragic story about losing an animal. They might chalk it up to "that's bowhunting". But switch to that heavy setup and you'll still have stories to tell about losing animals............back when you shot light arrows and mechanicals.
Felt no need to tune between the different arrows? There's no valid conclusions that you can make by shooting a vastly underspined arrow, outside of "its going to drop more" due to being heavier mass.
Not saying you need to be in the 650+ range. Myself I like 500-525 with my compound with a solid COC head.
Also fun to calculate the momentum for each arrow. Just can't rely on a sub 500 grain arrow to get adequate penetration on an elk
shoot 3 of each arrow weight at 50 yds using the 30, 40, 50 pin. i want to see the drop of each arrow on one target
I know it would take some time but I would love to see you do a similar test by sighting in each arrow weight at 50 , Shoot 50 then step back 1 yard at a time until you drop out of the Elk vitals. I think that would be eye opening.
I always hunt with like 380 grains and a fast bow about 300 fps and have 0 issues on deer. I have tinkered with heavy arrows and find noticable hand shock or even bow jump with heavy arrows (650ish grains) Has anyone else seen this with speed bows and heavy arrows? I shoot a 2014 obsession evolution 28" about 70lbs.
Hey man! Great video. I’ve graduated from a 480 grain arrow to a 690 grain arrow and the pin gap is not as drastically different as you may think and make it look. I mean this in a respectful way but your testing is faulty in this video. As the weight of your arrow moves up your entire pin system moves “down” thus making the pin gap less than what your testing shows. To be done correctly you would need to re sight your pin system so your first pin is re zeroed and then shoot again with the appropriate yardage pin and then you would see a closer representation of the change. Prior to making this change my dad lost many lost many large Roosevelt bulls because our system was too light to penetrate effectively. Since going heavy, and with a single bevel, I’ve had complete pass throughs on almost every elk shot since (7).
Great video! As a guy who hunts Roosies here in Western Oregon, I like a slightly heavier arrow. Most shots are 30 yards or less...if not, you ain't calling em in enough lol. I think the big arguments regarding arrow weight foc ect boil down to this, there is more than one way to skin a cat. You can kill game with light or heavy arrows. What matters MOST is having your bow tuned as best you can and shot placement!!! 🏹💪
I think we'd be running heavy too if we hunted the jungle like you guys do! - tC
My total arrow weight is 436 and I’m not concerned about it at all. My bow is pushing it around 288-290 feet per second. Glad to hear you say josh was recommending that weight. Made sense to me but everyone else is stuck on this Ashby guy and shooting rebar.
Agree with the 460. I didn’t see any difference in penetration. I prefer flat and fast.
Great video. You should try sighting in with the heavier arrows, then seeing what a yardage misjudgment of 3 yards would do.
Totally miss RF's point , its not heavy arrows . Follow Ashby's rules
Ashby's rules were formed with a trad bow, that shot 170 fps and 30 lbs of kinetic energy.. Do you feel that is the best study possible for compound bows that produce over double the kinetic energy, and almost double the FPS? - Tim
@@ElkShape yes it was traditional archery but kinetic energy does not care what is pushing it. Also by Ashby I meant is order of importance. Weight is far down the line, for hunting its is arrow flight , integrity and FOC . Don't get to worked up , and yes please verify with a compound
@@ElkShape Arrow flight and structural integrity are goals worth pursuing. At the least, If the arrows fly true, then the energy loss from the fletchings correcting the path are reduced, and the predictability of the impact points should also improve. The open question is: Can a well tuned fast, light arrow improve the pass through percentages even with bone impacts.
@@ianmorcott3113 Thanks , that is a good ?
@@flatrockpharm4022 The competing interest of fast and flat arrow flight vs slower but higher momentum comes down to finding the balance. IMHO if your shots are usually
I was shooting heavy arrows two years ago decided to switch up to lighter arrows last year and my groups improved dramatically.
To be fair, you should have changed the spine as you went up. I'm not sure about your DL and poundage, etc.. but you could have shot underspined arrows when you started getting really up. FYI, I really like your videos.
Realizing you have already done your fall hunts with your selected arrow but I guarantee you the 460 arrow is the winner. At 78#'s you have a great combination of speed and weight.
I’m at 482 for me it’s not weight it’s hitting my speed with as much weight as I can take to get there I’ll add weight to bring my speed down to 280’s so it I shoot a 500 grain arrow at 280 I’m done if I’m at 300 I’ll add weight until it’s down to 280 I like the sight tape of the mid to upper 280s slower and they are kind of long and I can have clearance problems sooner
I have been shooting less than 400 grains total weight and have killed many animals. Heavy arrows and not needed all the time. One year I was not getting pass throughs and I thought my arrows were not heavy enough. I went home and and shot through paper and found out my bow was not tuned (arrows flying sideways). Tuned it up and walla! Pass throughs again with 380 grain arrows on 200lb hogs.
RF is doing real data testing out to 60yrds with documented speed erosion and KE erosion.
Your crono reading at 10ft is very different to impact at 60yrds with lighter arrows. Around 30fps loss
Sight in the 560 arrow then shoot at random unknown yardages. Also you can try and shoot 5 yards farther or shorter than your sight is set for and see how much off you’d be if you misjudge distance. The difference you’ll see is minimal from your current set up.
Exactly. Comparing drop with different arrow weights is pointless. Who cares if the drop is that much? Only an idiot would go hunting with a bow sighted/tuned to a differently weighted arrow. You have to compare apples to apples guys!
The point is showing that a heavier arrow drops quicker which is incredibly important if judging yardage. The difference in 5 yards will be far greater from a slower, heavier build than a faster, lighter build. Sighting the bow in for a heavier arrow has nothing to do with it. Unless you never shoot past 20 or 30 yards and only shoot targets you know the exact range of, arrow speed plays a big role in flight.
To compare the actual difference in misjudged yardage, you need to shoot two arrows for each weight. Shoot one at the correct yardage for a pin, then go back ten yards or so and shoot a second using the same pin. Then you can measure the exact distance the arrows will drop if you misjudged by 10 yards. Doing this would just give you a better idea of the difference in drop of the heavy vs the light. The difference is not a lot. I shoot 568 grains, I’m very familiar with the trajectory of that weight out to 100.
My arrows are 390gn, 54#, and 27" draw. Never had an issue with deer or elk. Yes I live out west, Washington. People say what they will, dead is dead.
Btw I was having ribs and shoulder blades stop light arrows with a 70 lb bow at 31 in chi draw length. Know the range and make an ethical shot and have the momentum to break bone when the shot hits poorly. It’s just a matter of time until that happens.
It’s not one person is right or wrong it’s just what are you hunting what’s your set up? What is your goal? But I love your constant. I like the range for his contact I see all different sides of it. That’s what I love about archery
Say I have a 8.3gpi 340 spine arrow with a 75grain field tip, 332 grains total or something would that be safe to shoot with 70lbs? thanks
I just re did my arrows they are FMJ at 520grn👍🏹
heres my analogy..... using rifles~ you want to shoot a 6.5 creedmore and mr Adult arrows is looking at using a 338 cheytac.....lol
I know you guys are an elk channel, but you guys should do a video with MFJJ about weights and setups for whitetails, I for one would be interested to hear the weights and setups you guys would run.
Been better video if you sighted in each arrow weight and then seeing the missing by 5 yards off on yr sight tape... the drop is so dramatic because yr sighted in with the light arrow ....the drop shouldnt matter but the miss judge in yardage should and with super heavy arrows a miss judge is a big miss compared to a light arrow
I get what you're preaching, but also sense your bias. A true test, however, would be to make sure your spine is adequate for the heavier tips in front. Your heavier arrows in the test are a lot of weight for a 340 spine arrow
I always wondered this, I just ran with what the pro shop gave me to run. I am gonna figure out the weight of my arrow ASAP!
worth looking into
Let’s say you’re not Levi Morgan, and you don’t make a perfect shot... how is that 430grain arrow going to perform after contact with bone vs a 550? Dr Ashby did say shoot the heaviest arrow that you are still comfortable with the trajectory. So if your just worried about getting the arrow to the animal and not what happens afterward, this is a good test for that. Myself, I would be more concerned on what happens at impact, then figure out how to get the arrow there. That’s how I think about it anyway.
Also, Kinetic Energy is a poor indicator of penetration. Momentum is a better indicator. For an extreme example, you can shoot a super super light arrow at 350fps and have crazy KE but when it makes contact it loses speed at an incredible rate and will be left with nothing but it’s light mass to keep it pushing through.
Dr Ashby killing those giant animals with a 170fps bow just proves the point further... if you use a heavier arrow, it’s just more ethical when you don’t make the perfect shot. If you shoot perfect, guess yardage perfect, guess the wind and angle perfect, don’t ever get nervous, yeah shoot whatever you want. If you’re human, shoot the heaviest arrow you are still happy with the trajectory.
Also when your talking about 100 yard shots, you need to look into speed retention in relation to arrow mass. The heavy arrow starts off slower but looses less speed than does a light arrow. Something else to look into.
We are not trad bow hunters... That is the primary difference.. Much difference in Energy. You should shoot whatever you're most confident in - TC
@@ElkShape I have an idea for your next test. Quartering in shot on Elk. Which is very common since they don’t walk backwards to you calling. Do you pass on the shot, aim behind the shoulder and pray you hit a lung, or do you shoot a substantial enough arrow to aim forward on the shoulder?
Is that not under spined?? A 350 arrow with 77-78lbs pounds. I’m curious?
Why not use a sight tape for each arrow at set ranges then step back4 or six feet shoot three arrows at each weight to see the difference in drop between the different weights that would be a better gauge to see the difference between the lighter and heavier
thanks for the videos enjoy your tinkering
I know exactly where you are spokane valley archery and I think I found one of your arrows at the Bigfoot in the 3d corse
Great video as always guys. Aaron Snyder is a smart dude and would be awesome if you guys did something together. What do you shoot more, the 27” or 31”? Keep the videos coming!
We did a whole day with Aron, lots to come! - TC
Great video! I was going to leave a comment for the heavy arrow guys but I ran out of space.
I always say different strokes for different folks. I'm shooting here at TAC 2021 today, and my 580 grain arrows are drilling these targets, like almost penetrating the rineharts. That being said I'm thinking of backing down to 510 to gain some speed back as well. Technically anything over 500 he considers an "Adult arrow". Also can't argue with the science that there is drop at that range, but there is also way more momentum in that arrow at those long yardages. Gravity makes it drop further, but it actually retains more speed at distance than a light arrow.
Dan can I get your help on my arrows? Is therean email or number? Thanks. Semper Fi.
Keep up the work, i’m looking forward to your next video on penetration with a different weight arrows
One thing worth noting is the heavier the weight of the arrow the less penetration you had based on the graphic on the arrow of those fmj
you really need to stiffen that spine as you increase that weight you won't get true trajectory otherwise.
Test a heavy arrow single bevel high foc on an animal instead of foam targets. Ya now hunting
Get ranch fairy on the horn and have a pow wow.
Would you rather us talk to Ranch Fairy or Aron Snyder? - TC
I vote for Snyder.
@@ElkShape Ranch Fairy
@@ElkShape Both.
Both
Anybody know where to find the background music?
I'm very curious about your your draw weight. I shoot a hoyt katera xt500 with a 28.5 inch draw, and I also shoot 29" easton axis match grades in 340 spine, and I am about to experiment with different weights to increase my arrows FOC. Using ranch fairy's/Sirius archery's provided chart, I dialed my bow down from 57# to 49# so I could avoid having to get a whole other set of arrows in a stiffer spine. With this adjustment I should be able to find a weight between 100 and 200g that will play with my setup well. Im curious about your draw weight and how much wiggle room there is in the info from the chart I used, such as, can I/should i bump up my draw weight slightly over 50 or would I start to compromise the arrow and its spine rating. Since you use the same arrows and are using very similar weights to what I've calculated will work best, I wanted to see if you had any good info for me.
I suppose I should have just waited and watched in the video lol, as you mentioned it. But i do want to know are you hunting with a high foc arrow out of your rig at 70# draw using those 340 spine arrows? Everything ive been able to look up suggests that would be severely under spined for anything over 116 grains in the front end.
I did A LOT of tinkering...you are spot on! You have to find what is best for your setup. Example, me with a 30" DL trying to run even200+ up front (includes tip & insert), I have to have a 200 arrow spine, then my trajectory SUCKS for 30 or even 40+...if they are all 20 yard or under shot...fine, but for longer shots...Like you said...you need to figure out what works for you.
To help those on this thread, I shoot a Mathews VXR 31.5, @30" DL. I shoot a 250 spine arrow with about 200 up front (and that is pushing it), I can do it because my bow is tuned (I am a nut at it),. but if you do not always check your bow tuning...issues can arise.
So I love this video because at the end of the day, you have to shoot what works for you and your setup.
Keep up the vids, love them!!!
I shot a 3 or 4 yr buck this past yr. Was using a 429.5 gr. Stopped on the off side ribs. I have a 26 .5 inche draw and was at 55 pounds. For me I'm leaning towards around a 510grs with maybe an iron will
Were you using a mechanical broadhead by chance? - tC
@@ElkShape yes . 1 1/2
Hate to be an couch QB but I’d like to see the video bow zeroed with your 460. Shoot at 25 hit bullseye move to 28 and shoot as if you misjudged 3 yards to show the drop and trajectory. Then do the same with the adult arrows they will not hit target or animal where the 460 grain arrow off by three yards will still be lethal. And all he wants to preach is forgiveness. Nothing forgiving about that
I would like to know your velocity at range for each arrow
Kinetic energy in part 2 on Monday
people get so wrapped around the axle over weight and FOC... even the ashby reports say perfect arrow flight is most important with structural integrity at number two, and that's where 95% of problems take place. I shoot sub 50 yards at eastern NC whitetails, 525 grains is quiet and hits like a Mac truck at any shot angle... but that's not ideal for a western hunt IMO.
but the bow and the arrows are perfectly tuned with ethics components and solid Broadheads as well.