British and US Infantry Southeast Asia, 1965 - Kit Comparison
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 ก.ค. 2024
- A brief comparison of typical British and US Infantry deployed to Southeast Asia in 1965.
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Thought you might like to know that when I joined the Malaysian military in 1995, we were still using a mishmash of the British and American kit you featured:
1. British Jungle Hat, we only wore the helmet for conventional warfare, never in the jungle. Too heavy and cumbersome in the jungle.
2. British sweat rag around the net. Malaysians called it the jungle scarf, good for sweat and camouflage and it broke up the outline of the head.
3. US style combat jacket. We liked the multiple full pockets; you could stuff a lot into them.
4. British style subdued or few insignia, not to stand out like a target in the jungle.
5. US style M-1956 Load-Carrying Equipment. We used similar pouches as we had M16 magazines.
6. We carried grenades in pouches as it was too risky to carry it slung on like the Americans did.
7. Plastic water canteens, but I replaced them with metal ones as the plastic gave a terrible taste to water carried in it.
8. A full backpack to carry supplies which can be released easily, with the utility belt carrying ammo and water only.
9. American Vietnam War style jungle boots with steel plate to protect against punji sticks.
Very interesting to know, thank you!
You might already know this, but the US Jungle Uniform of Vietnam was designed by Gen William P. Yarborough, who as a Lt also designed the WWII US Airborne uniform - the lineage is quite obvious. Perhaps it was recognised that re-supply in a jungle environment would be few and far between, so that extra capacity was required.
Indeed so, the style is very recognisable with the pocket shape, etc.
In the US Army, by 1968 when I went to VN, on the US Army jungle fatigues shown in this video, most units used subdued insignia (olive green background with black lettering and patterns) patches and name tags in base camp or patrol, or no insignia or patches when on patrols. The jungle fatigues you show above are an early model. By the mid-1960's the buttons were not exposed, but were under a cloth flap making them less likely to catch on brush.
As a company grade officer in the 5th Special Forces Group (Abn), in camp or around headquarters, we wore the jungle fatigue uniform shown above (but with hidden buttons as noted), and our standard issue green beret with the embroidered Group flash and subdued metal rank badge for officers, and for enlisted personnel, the silver and black Group crest badge on the beret embroidered Group flash.
In the field on patrol, we normally wore a distinctive Special Forces patrol uniform, which had a "tiger stripe" camouflage pattern. We used the regular issue load bearing harness, with standard magazine, ammo pouches, accessory pouches and pack. Some of us improvised and had our own load-bearing gear made by tailors. For headgear, most of us (me included) rarely wore a steel helmet, in camp or in the field - it was much too heavy and cumbersome. We wore floppy hats with camo pattern that matched our pants and shirts. We wore either standard US jungle boots or special "lug sole black tennis shoe" type boots made by the Bata shoe company (the US boots were better protection). We typically used face paint while on patrol if we were in jungle terrain. Usually no rank insignia, service or name patches on patrol uniforms. We often wore a scarf that identified which patrol subunit we were with, or sometimes we just used a green sling cloth as a scarf. For weapons, I usually carried a M1911 .45 pistol or a 9mm Browning pistol and an M-16 rifle or an XM-177E1 Carbine (very similar to the M-4 used today).
A very interesting and enlightening video.
During the early, counterinsurgency phase of the Vietnam War, American advisors dressed and equipped pretty much along the lines of their British counterparts. When regular North Vietnamese units were discovered, though, American policy shifted to full-on combat, hence the more conventional gear. The M1956 ammo pouches were produced for the M14 rifle, being able to carry two, 20rd magazines.
FUN FACT, when I attended USMC Officer Candidate School in 1975, I was issued M1941 (yes, World War II ! ) webbing...
You see US Army advisors wearing WWII USMC kit in photos from the early days.
@@williamfitch1408👍
These comparison videos are great, and not often done by others. Very informative and enjoyable.
Glad you find them so, more to come soon hopefully!
Whoo! 173rd! My unit! Sky Soldier from 2008 to 2012!
Was expecting the Mark Felton intro music
Ah, given the title, yes.
The little known stand off of 6 British advisors (and 12 vietcong band members) versus 2 x US M48 tanks. Brits on way home after Burns night celebrations in Mekong Delta village. All worked out ok. Whisky shared. US tankers involved now have haggis motif as unit insignia, sprayed on Abrams tanks.
To be honest it's been debated just how cordial this encounter was, especially when you considered the purported argument which erupted over the spelling of whiskey.
@@RiflemanMoore :) haha it seems to have been influential enough to spawn the term 'Mekong Whisky' (which is true I now realise, a coincidence I guess) ...to anyone else by the way, the story is not true but shows Rifleman Moore has healthy sense of humour/the absurd. Sorry to veer things off track!
Nick Thorp Advisors?! I knew my French would come useful one day!
Simply fantastic! Well done as always, keep up the good work!
Thanks Ian, really appreciate it!
Great video. Thanks
You can really see the influence of the American MIC after WW2. The US began to have some very technical equipment, regardless of much practicality, as opposed to the rest of the world. Good video!
Excellent video and explanation😄🇸🇬
I used a roll pin belt in the 80s and early 90s and I believe they are still on offer from the Gucci Kit Shops
They were very common with airborne troops ..
Indeed so, interesting to see how a converted cargo strap has evolved into an off-the-shelf purpose made piece of kit.
Roll pin belts are ally kit
I didn't know they used that sort of strap as a belt in the 60s .in Northern Ireland we had similar but we had the roll strap buckle attached to our spare 58 pattern belts as we had the yoke attached most of the time but when we could we the yoke was off , but was surprised to see the 44 pattern water bottle pouch rather than the 58 pattern water bottle pouch.
On the British kit.
The use of cut down and modified cargo straps started in the late 1950s from what I can gather though it became more common in the 1960s.
Great video. We always seem to be that little bit behind with our uniforms and equipment. Good idea to compare the two though
Indeed, that's one thing that makes this interesting!
Really small, pedantic detail about the 1st pattern U.S. jungle shirt on your mannequin, the U.S. army never would've rolled up their sleeves, only the USMC permitted that. The marines' uniform regs became loose during the war, as once body armor such as the M1955 became ubiquitous most infantrymen just wore their OD undershirts under the vest. Regardless of my worthless nitpicking, awesome video!
Excellent!
Many thanks!
The U.S. Army still loves issuing old gear. when I joined in 2007 I had a 2qt canteen dated 1968.
A great video and for me it raises a question. The Australians were involved in both conflicts at the same time. Presumably in Borneo they would be wearing British kit. However in 1965-66 1RAR were attached to 173rd Airborne Brigade (as shown in your video). Did they stick with British kit, or did they adopt US kit for easy of replacement and to avoid blue on blue incidents? By mid 1966 when the Australians had their own Task Force and Area of Operations this wouldn't be an issue.
Also, that white singlet does look like a lovely triangular target. I read in Hal Moore's book "We Were Soldiers Once, And Young" that one of the first things that they did was dye all of their tee shirts olive green.
Hopefully this will answer your question regarding 1RAR; th-cam.com/video/EEz7nH-mp78/w-d-xo.html It's something I plan to cover in more detail going forward.
Well as far as I’m aware the Australian forces didn’t adopt the P58 webbing and used P37 and P44 webbing during the Malaysian Emergency and when they went to Vietnam they still used this WW2 webbing along with US M56 which is where they notice the US magazine pouches wouldn’t work with L1A1 mags hence why later on the Australians developed their variant of M56 which was started to be issued in the late 60’s
@@RiflemanMoore Thank you.
(Think of me on my knees, arms forward, saying "We're not worthy" a la Wayne's World). 😁👍
Dean yes early in 60s in Vietnam I see those white t shirts, bright yellow neck scarves, bright unit markings, all black weapons etc and can only imagine the US military slang word 'strac' (of sharp appearance) was more important than anything for a while. Good for unit morale though perhaps, not for those who knew what was coming. This is from video and photos of the period, not saying all units had same.
I believe the Australians were always going to go down the US path despite Vietnam. Pictures exist of Aussies in 1959 with SLRs in Malaya with US contracted M-1956 pouches. When they found them unsuitable they just stuck with the Pattern '37 pouches. The wider Aust P'37 pouches were always popular for their larger carrying capacity even after the introduction of Aust. manufactured L1A1 ammo pouches. There's a oft reproduced pic of an Australian CPL in the early days of Iraq, only the eagle-eyed will spot that he's sporting a P'37 pouch, modified with fastex buckle, pistol belt webbing sewn around the side and painted to match the DPDU uniform he is wearing!
A JWIC point dry footwear and kit as you stated was worn at night under your basha to give the body a chance to recover, however the wet boots and wet clothing are put on wet in the morning (and feels awesome not!) the humidity does not allow for drying . During my service we were issued US Army boots and I can assure you they do not dry out and remain wet for the duration of ops . US boots however are much more durable spike protective and offer superior support to the ankle in the difficult terrain of primary Jungle .
The primary issue with the British canvas and rubber boots is they don't drain, you are litterally slopping along in a puddle of water all the time once they get wet, your feet aren't just damp but immersed, whereas there is at least chance for most of the water to drain from a US boot through the drain holes.
Hi, you are spot on about the so called Jungle Boots. The design was an extension of the old hockey boots made by Bata Shoe Co. and they were crap. First priority was always to source a better pair of boots that protected your feet, I never did find a good pair of boots but at least the US boots gave you some protection against those bloody sharp sticks that the Indonesians drove into the ground! There was only two types of clothing, new issue dry clothing and in country wet clothing. Never saw dry clothing after the first day. I still have the scars from the jungle sores.
The poncho on the British large pack looks quite a bit bigger than the 58 ptn poncho, plus it is more of a khaki colour than olive...is it a WW2 groundsheet, seems similar to the one shown in your WW2 large pack content vid?
This is neither. It's a 1962 Pattern poncho. It's the predecessor to the lightweight poncho (there is no '1958 Pattern' poncho) same cut and features but made in rubberised cloth rather than nylon. The later nylon type commonly referred to as 1958 Pattern didn't arrive until 1972.
I think that I might have been in one of the last units in the US Army to ever wear the old OD Green uniform. I was in the 2nd Battalion, 9th Infantry Regiment (light), and in 1986 or 1987 we were issued a half-dozen sets of the old uniform apiece because when we were going down to the jungle operations training center in Panama for training there had been some kind of problem, and we hadn't received our lightweight woodland camouflage pattern BDUs in time. So, Fort Ord, being a basic training facility during the Vietnam era issued us the old style uniforms instead. I'm sure that they must have had thousands of the old uniforms leftover at the time.
As an aside, I liked Panama so much that I now live here in Panama as an expat.
Very good comparisons, good stuff, thanks. I would like to say though, not having had experience with Jungle gear as shown, 3 full waterbottles and 2 full mag pouches with ammo is not light. That is really going to hurt your hips after a while with no shoulder support. 3 litres of water, 3 kilos, 4 SLR mags at roughly 3 kilos plus grenades/LMG ammo.
Many thanks! Regarding the belt kit, as you say it's quite a weight around the hips but this load is routinely shown carried in such a manner in footage from the time.
The British were not typiacally issued suspenders for the belt kit however they bagan to see usage after Malaya, and continued to gain popularity in places right up to Borneo. Traditional infantry units carried out shorter patrols, sometimes as short as an afternoon or long day, while the SAS would be gone for weeks and required a more supportive web ystem.
Many of the British web systems did have a form of yoke, that could work with all sorts of kit including packs in some cases. At the end of the day, once in country it came down to personal choice.
Did we use the flak vest anywere else that wasent northern ireland
gotta dig on you a bit here a more comparable would be the us gear of about late 67-68 get over the early issues like you said the brits had been in south east Asia for over ten years
I wore that US uniform in 1964. That white T shirt , name tag and gold US Army made a perfect aiming point for the enemy' We lost a lot of men because of it.
Will you do a comparison of US and Australian troops in Vietnam? Early and Late perhaps?
Possibly so, yes. Unfortunately, I don't really have the kit to do a complete late war US setup.
Are you sure the American top is poplin? It looks more like ripstop. I have one of each, and the poplin version is more like a regular cotton shirt. It’s a much brighter green too.
Definitely cotton poplin, no ripstop here, I've uploaded a video covering the modification of this jacket, including closeups and you'll be able to see the grid effect you see on ripstop is conspicuous by its absense. Regardless the later ripstop tropical combat uniform is still made of cotton poplin, it's just ripstop poplin.
Hi, I think that you are missing the Golok machete. Three water bottles is correct, a lesson learned the hard way.
I always understood machetes were issued on a certain number per section basis, as opposed to individual issue, happy to be corrected on that if not! Regardless the chap this kit was referenced from was not carrying one.
@@RiflemanMoore When I was in Borneo (2 PARA) we all had goloks, many lads carried Iban homemade (usually made from car leaf springs) which were lighter and very good. An A1 piece of kit, which I "found" in an Aussie position was a lightweight ponco and nylon hammock which fitted in the trouser map pocket - really neat.
Excellent Comparison !! not sure the term "body armor" would be correct more likely "flak jacket" would be the term
Many thanks! In terms of nomenclature, flak jacket is a colloquialism. By the time of Vietnam armour vests were being officially referred to as body armour, specifically Armour, Body, Fragmentation.
Is that helmet an airborne M1C?
It isn't I'm afraid, an M1C is on my list.
Hey man could we get a review on some more American equipment?
Potentially, it's not a focus of the channel however.
Rifleman Moore that’s not problem at all!! I just want to see more comparison to British equipment, I personally like American equipment more, but that’s just bias as I’m American, but I love hearing your personal opinion, and I like to know the goods and bands of both
What’s a good price for a 1960 pattern smock
That depends entirely on size and condition.
It is always worth checking out piles of old Cr@p at militia gigs, as you might be lucky.
David Brennan I was at an army navy store and got an original mint 1968 pattern smock for a fiver because they were mixed in with soldier 95 I’m kicking my self becouse there was a rack of olive green looking jackets
That's a bugger. 1968 Pattern can still be picked up fairly cheaply at shows, even when people know what it is!
Rifleman Moore yeah I should have looked at the olive smocks might have gotten one but I was trying to get Falklands kit
I tell you what I've never understood, and please feel free to ridicule me for my utter stupidity...
But why are canteen cups plastic, when the used to be metal? I understand you're cutting down on weight, shine, ease of maintenance, noise, etc... but a metal cup is SUPREMELY handy for making a swift hot snack or brew. was there a logical reason (as in: who on earth needs twenty gallons of tea a day when on a mission in a jungle?!")?
No weapons. Bummer. A fashion show instead.
Guns,guns,guns, you must be American. It's an uniform and kit channel.
British didn't sever in Vietnam it was us and anzac
Er, yeah, you don't say. At no point did I say British troops served in Vietnam. Did you even watch the video? Sorry, I am genuinely perplexed by this comment.
It's an interesting alt history question. Would British support make a difference? Would the extra support from the SAS or Ghukas help? Or would the British not make a big difference because they were already stationed in Borneo, Brunei and other deployment?
I doubt it would have made a change to the outcome given the situation by 1965.
Actually, the British did serve in Vietnam, but in 1945 to occupy the country prior to handing it back to the French. Apparently they and the Japanese forces they re-armed did very well in coping with the attempted Communist insurrection that began almost as soon as the Japanese surrendered at the end of WWII, but the French wanted to move back in as soon as they could, and the rest, as they say, is history.
Yes, I've seen the mark felton video on it.
Terrible speaking voice
It's a typical English accent,Sly Stalone was busy doing motivation videos.