Diesel Cummins vs Electric Truck - Are EV Trucks REALLY the Future OR Just a Flash In The Pan?
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Diesel Cummins vs Electric Truck - Are EV Trucks REALLY the Future OR Just a Flash In The Pan?
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#MVInternational #Cummins #Diesel - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
These are both "performance machines" but the performance of a truck like this isn't measured by 0-60 time but by the load it can haul and/or the trailer it can tow.
EV trucks will be when you see the diesel fuel pump. $20.00 a gallon plus $8.00 a gallon carbon tax. The closest diesel pump is 1200 plus miles away.
@@davidfromamerica1871 If that is the case then electricity pricing will sky rocket anywhere the electric vehicles are in use. Is all just moving goal posts to make electric seem like it's the natural now cost effective easier way to go which it is not and better than the alternative which it is also not. Electricity is not free or cheap and if it was then these pipe dreams of electric vehicles would actually be what they said lol. Most people that bought an electric vehicle are selling them because they are not what they seem and electricity to run them is very very expensive. Imagine running your cloths dryer every night all night long when you are sleeping now Imagen how many extra hundreds of dollars a month on electricity your bill WILL go up and up and up and it will never get cheaper. Hybrid electric motor to assist the primary ICE motor and ICE motor to keep the battery pack charged up is a better more realistic option. If a person can develop zero point energy then Electric would be the way to go.
@@leanlifter1 "Most people that bought an electric vehicle are selling them because they are not what they seem" .... Really? Where`d you get those statistics?
"Electricity is not free or cheap" "your bill WILL go up and up and up and it will never get cheaper." ...... And diesel/gas is cheap? Not sure if you`ve noticed the prices going up more & more over time, & everyone with EV`s are saying "fueling" costs are massively reduced with EV`s, as well as servicing & maintenance being almost non existent. Those savings are even more significant when using commercial vehicles like this.
"If a person can develop zero point energy then Electric would be the way to go"... Both solar & wind generators are fairly common, You could then be entirely self sufficient if you have the room.
My hubby is a Billy big rigger heavy hauler in a Kenworth , pushing over 600 hp and that thing does real work
@@leanlifter1 this can only literally happen with government interference, if you were to allow the free market, things wouldn't be getting dire for diesel like in your prediction.
I drove a oxygen delivery truck in for 10 years, Chevy box truck with about 10,000 lbs. my route was in one suburb 5 days a week, less than 50 miles a day 8-12 hours. I could see an EV doing great on this specific route. I ran a 454 with automatic, the engine never broke down, but numerous starters, alternators, and the a/c was constantly getting fixed, I got 6 mpg.
You had a gas burner. Should have used a diesel
This is specifically the sort of use-case that EV can do well at. A known, reliable, regular route
lol the range is absolutely pathetic on this thing, if u loaded this up with anything the range would be cut down to like 60-70 miles or more lmao, electric vehicles=toys just like electric mowers=toys
You could buy 3 diesel trucks for the price of 1 EV truck, so you have to factor that into any equations you do regarding the practicality of the vehicle.
@@billybobbob3003 that range is at max load. They do not and have no reason to rate them unladed these aren’t cars
I think going Diesel-Electric hybrid woiuld be much more practical than full electric. They can get full electric to work, but definitely cant be anything more than local freight
Hybrids have two independent systems with all the maintenance and possibilities for breakdown.
I’d choose one or the other but never both.
@@tedbaxter5234 I wonder if it could still be more reliable if the diesel is just used as a generator instead of driving the axle and being assisted by an electric motor. The diesel wouldn't be subjected to the varying loadings and rpm changes needed to drive the axles, and electric motors are very reliable. The combined breakdown rate of the two systems might be less than the breakdown rate of a diesel engine.
@@9ZweihandeR9 there are hybrid busses and they work very well
Europe has lots of Diesel-Hybrid for buses and works very well. Super quiet and comfortable.
Nothing green about it .. all the stuff to make it Paint wire and so on .Like Renewables No such thing it requires Energy to make and lots of it ,Plastic's for insulations From oil ... No, Phones,, The big Lie ...Australia ..
TFLT love the content. Although I really wish you guys would have asked a more practical question to International. Maybe you know the answer...how much energy (practically speaking in miles depleted) is used on a hot day when your sitting running the A/c waiting to be unloaded or stuck in traffic? That's a big question in my opinion. What about making a range extender option coming in the future? That is the future in my opinion. A small 4cyl running a power generator. To be able to run 500-700miles
I had a Tesla rental last week for work. Sat in a parking lot for 2 hours running the AC and radio waiting for a meeting. Range only dropped a couple miles. It’s surprisingly little energy loss.
Wow
It makes a lot of sense to use the ev where it shines and the diesel where it shines. People get stuck in their ideologies but really, things like school bus routes and local delivery are great use cases and use the diesels where the ev's make less sense.
Exactly you took the words out of my mouth I’m tired of the extremes this would be perfect for so many applications, but not every application and that’s ok.
Yes and the same is true of any EV. Not all use cases make sense. For me and my pre-COVID use case having an EV made perfect sense because I was saving around $200/month in energy costs plus an additional savings in maintenance. However I was only driving about 100 miles/day on my commute. I also had a charger installed in my garage so I could charge overnight and get the lower rates at my house vs a L3 charging station. I have only had to use a Supercharger a handful of times and that was mostly just to see how they worked. I can't tow my boat with my EV and if I am taking a long trip with all of my stuff I tend to take my pickup truck even though it will cost me more in fuel and in maintenance. To me it is worth the extra costs to save the time and to be more comfy. It really is a matter of using the right tool for the job.
They just passed a several million dollar bond in my small town to replace the school buses. Would love to hear them propose a 3x the cost same bond so they can go "green".
No School today Kids, power outage last night and it wasn't restored in time to charge the buses.
@@JHuffPhoto Same, have a Chevy Bolt for commute and a 99 suburban for, well, everything else. Right tool for the job.
Perfect for urban delivery, Public Works, Military bases for maintenance, transit, school busses (recharge between morning and afternoon trips). No one is saying these will replace IC engines yet but it doesn't hurt to use them where they make sense.
Yes, they are saying that. All the dipshits that make the rules/laws are saying it as we speak lol
great for city use
Except it costs 3X as much as the trucks typically used for those low mileage duties. Makes no sense. This is the answer to a question no one is asking.
@@Viccus476 Like everything else, the price will come down. Some simple folk have a real difficult time accepting change. Besides, they'lle save that in fuel costs over the life of the vehicle, and before drivle on about battery replacement, the savings in maintenance will easily pay for batteries. Relax bruh, you can keep your vroom vroom machine... for a little while.
FWIW, if you think IC engines in service rigs, sitting at idle for four out of eight hours per day is "low mileage" then you aren't considering things clearly
Funny, every day, we hear about climate, heat waves, and cold spells, yet no one talks about what happens to battery performance under adverse weather conditions! I would love to know what happens to the range when the temperature drops to -40deg? What happens to the range with usage?
I believe we are living in a time that practicality and real-life conditions are being ignored to push an agenda. Good luck running a business when your productivity drops because you can't perform and maintain productivity. Just yesterday, they were telling us that Wind and solar were the future. How is that working?
I agree 100%
Cold climates will significantly drop the battery performance.
@john Johnson, agreed. And what does a hot climate do to battery performance? I suspect there is a negative impact on over temp, as there is under temp. Things people neglect to discuss!
with lithium batteries there is very little performance decrease unlike old lead acid batteries a quick google search to confirm My house gets 80% of its power from solar very very pleased I never have a power outage
I just drove a Cummins powered 26 foot moving truck 1300 miles. Took me 2 days. I achieved 10.3mpg at 65-70 mph depending on the speed limit. Each tank of fuel had just over 600 mile range. An EV would require a 900KWh battery to achieve just 300 mile range under the same conditions. Leaving ZERO payload. EV's can't do that job.
As with any EV, there are always going to be applications that they just don't suit yet. High mile and high speed is pretty much exactly the one that EVs can't do yet. Drayage style duty and small point to point stuff is perfect for them though.
@@Map71Vette The EV will never be able to do real work. Lithium is the most active metal (for batteries) and only has so many ions to move. There is no "magic battery" coming. Electrochemical energy storage has finite limits.
@@cujet I don't entirely disagree, but I also design industrial trucks that move 100,000+ lbs using an EV drivetrain just fine. It comes down to your definition of "work". Long haul with maximum legal road loads is a use case I would agree EVs will have a very hard ever meeting. Pulling 120,000 lbs across a port from a container ship to a stack all day is one they are actually reasonably well suited for.
i agree, it's not about the diesel vs electric motor, it's about how flexible today the electric could be
So right on
There is a quarry in New Zealand that uses electric dump trucks. As the quarry is on a hill and the depot is at the bottom of the hill , the truck gets most of it's energy from regen braking i.e. it comes down loaded with potential energy from it's load of rock and returns up to the quarry empty ,on the recovered energy.
They only have to spend a few dollars per day charging.
What you presented sounds, feels-good and efficient, nice! It's almost describing a perpetual motion machine aka Carnot Engine. In Laws of Nature a perpetual motion machine aka Carnot Engine cannot exist.
While most heavy haul quarry trucks (and other large heavy quarry machines) are electromotive that is they can be 'electric', hybrid with re-gen electromotive brakes. Better put the polyphase drive motors are also generators by special construction and switching circuits (plus inverter DC to AC & vice-verso) so can be propulsion and electromagnetic resistance to rolling (braking), battery aided power and IC engine. Their drives are electric polyphase motors coupled to planetary gears similar to diesel-electric locomotives. They all use many materials, plus lubricants, coolants, etc.
In conclusion if 100% battery powered, battery golf carts, cars, trucks, quarry trucks, lorries, trams, etc charging batteries is necessary 100% of time. Which requires Hydro, Oil, coal, Nuke, PV, Wind turbines, tidal turbines, animals / humans,... to rotate dynamos to generate electricity to charge batteries. And by extension through to Raw to Ready of everything humans cultivate, harvest, make, transport, etc and to recycle.
@janet cohen its not hauling the rocks back up the hill, think about that for a second…
Let’s say there are 40 tons of rocks at 6,000 ft elevation and you need to bring them down 3,000 ft. The change in elevation is being traded for energy, the same way the weights in a grandfather clock power it. When the weights are pulled down by gravity, useful work can be performed…the conversion of potential energy into kinetic.
All trucks have to covert the potential energy of heavy load at high altitudes in order to move them to a lower altitude, diesel trucks control the speed down the hill by turning this excess energy into heat by both braking and using the engine to compress air (thus heating it).
The electric truck simply stores the energy gained from slowing the load down the hill rather than wasting it as heat.
No perpetual motion here, just basic physics.
@@Heathfx5 Yes , anything further away from a local center of mass that is warping spacetime ,is charged with gravitational potential energy.
Following Someone's Law: "What goes up,must come down".
And Mr. Warning Sign: "Beware of falling rocks".
A ropeway would do the same for even cheaper
@@Heathfx5 I understand your example and concept. Thank you.
Nevertheless, no machine is 100% efficient = Zero losses, and some % net energy gain.
Neither are living creatures', humans / all mammals, etc 100% efficient = Zero losses.
Perhaps some politicians, tyrants, bureaucrats, lawyers, judges, financiers, super wealthy, are maybe so self-absorbed they believe are 100% efficient, no wastes, no dandruff, no sweats, no bi-products from foods & beverages eaten & sipped.... and accordingly, 100% infallible, omnipotent, ...
Back to physics, Even using your example of a grandfather clock weights to gears, movements, bearings, hands, air friction, thermal forces, .... chimes if activated, all have friction and mass, vector gradient forces from gravity on the clocks' many moving components too, thus the energy input via weights acted upon by Earth's gravity, so clocks are not 100% efficient = Zero losses.
Big Ben, (is the name of the 14-ton bell) that also indirectly identifies a world-famous chime tones and clock in London, England. Albeit this clock is huge compared to a grandfather clock, the entire mechanism has many losses too.
Apply all the mechanisms, mass, friction, in mine trucks, tyre deflection out of round, bearings, heating, planetary gears, viscous friction of lube oils, greases, coolants in electric motors, wind direction & velocity, ambient temperature, solar radiant heat gain, etc plus energy required to power the truck back up hill overcoming inertia of mass when stopped, moving at X velocity, at X slope, radii of roadway, roadway surface to tyre slippage to 6,000 ft elevation.
So, in summary batteries cannot ever gain charge energy furnished by electromagnetic braking energy recovery to downhill laden with weight load to replenish what is expended by empty truck going uphill.
Perhaps you now have a better understanding that perpetual motion machines aka Carnot Engines cannot exist in Laws of Nature because there are always inherent losses direct and indirect.
I could see the EV truck being great for short distance runs in town or even on site only usage.
The down side, all of the electronics, battery conditioner, wiring looms and connectors are going to be trouble in places like Western New York, Toronto and Montreal with the copious amounts of salt used in the winter. It gets onto (and INTO) everything.
Agreed! My car is 5 years old and my pipe to the muffler just disconnected because of rust. I looked under the car, I think even the spare tire under the trunk section, I would not be able to use because the rust has seized it as well!
Learn to drive without salt. Salt affects everything it touches. Education is key. I have driven on ice and snow, I just stay off if the weather is too bad.
@@richarda996 You can have days of wet slushy weather in the Toronto area during the winter. Not possible to not be working for days. Most electric cars have all of the electronics hidden away and I'm sure as these go forward they will do the same.
@@richarda996 Exactly!! That's what we do in northern and western Canada, sand only.
Toronto, Montreal and NE USA seems to be obsessed with using salt.
The truck in the Video had Charger cooling Fans hanging out on the side..bit prone to Salt/Snow and dust there.
I like the fuse panel in the top of the dash with the drain system. Simple but makes life easier on techs for sure.
Saw a lot of little things as your camera went around the truck that tell me this was a very early design model or even a prototype vehicle. Lots of connections and modules that are not very well protected as a full production vehicle would be. The battery conditioning box hanging off the side and pretty exposed did not look refined. The high voltage cables hanging below the chassis and not covered is not very refined. Looks like they got more work to do before selling this as a production vehicle. Either that or they should expect a lot of warranty returns!
It’s is International they just make trucks to breakdown and buy their parts ….
Clearly you haven’t worked on many vehicles. Having exposed wiring and such is very common. Only notes that come to mind that don’t are German cars
@@rohinhans7819 yeah, you're correct, He's so smart maybe he should have been the engineer! If they covered everything the way he wanted it then he'd be complaining about that! I worked on heavy duty trucks for 42 years. Everything is a compromise! Computers and related wiring harnesses are surprisingly robust. It's never perfect. What is?
@@lightningstrikestwice6302 I am a currently in school for engineering and yes, seems almost everything is a compromise in terms of design
I noticed the cables
I’m so glad Andre got his trucking license so we can watch him review cool trucks like this. So much fun 😁 Nice work Andre!
Last time I remember he never got his class A. It was too much time consuming. Kent on the other hand does have his class A. That's why he always drives anytime they are towing over 26,001 Lbs
Lol, depends where you are. No special license to drive anything privately here
Because Kent is full of it he probably just has his CDL for show
The comment makes no sense for this these are under 26,000 lb GVW truck so you don't need a commercial license
@@The101Point1 the electric was rated at 33k
My employer used box cab/chassis with 24 foot vans for our warehouse to HQ trips. Our IH's averaged about 50 miles a day, perfect for this truck.
I want to drive it, just one time. Then I'm almost certain I'll be tired of it and want back in a diesel.
Electric is fun, but the fun fades quickly to me. Internal combustion is just the only way for me
It will be interesting to see how they cope with winter, and salty environments. Sounds like the motor drive units need better balancing as well, you could hear quite a terrrible vibration in the video as you climbed in speed... Neat video overall
It's nice to see International trying to enter the EV space. With the limitations they could have just said. "its not feasible." But they did what they could for a specific use cases. School buses, fire trucks, City freight. Very nice.
Build what you can until batteries and the infrastructure approve.
It's gonna be about hydrogen in the future.
I'd hate to have a EV as a fire truck. Even the smallest firetrucks have to be able to operate as a pump truck. I'm sure at some point that a electric water pump will be available to transfer water and provide enough pressure to fight a fire.
Good platform as the school bus, package delivery and as a ambulance. The smell of diesel fuel and the exhaust fumes are common complaints patients.
Well they kinda have to go electric cause their engines break down all day
@@RonaldPlett
The 6.7 Cummins is probably the most reliable small diesel available.
Much simpler to work on than the 6.7 Ford.
And when it's time for "Battery Replacement" the real cost both out of pocket and Environmentally, become apparent.
The battery will outlast the truck, then go on to live in an energy storage system for a few more years, and then is completely recycled to recover the materials to make new batteries.
@@davidmccarthy6061
I've heard that myth about the battery outlasting the vehicle. Still haven't seen that happen yet. Batteries are not 100% recyclable unless you've personally figure out how to recycle the most environmentally damaging and toxic parts of it. We'll run out of Lithium before we run out of oil. Gigantic holes from strip mining are cool.
@@seraphimsscythe1628 You've never seen a lithium mine except in a meme that shows photos of copper mines, obviously.
@@andrewdiamond2697
You're asinine assumption and parroted rhetoric are noted. "Seen in a Meme."
Sure kiddo. You keep regurgitating that trained line. You must hear that "bell" 24/7.
@@seraphimsscythe1628 You're right. They are closer to 90% recyclable.
Just thinking alot of times when im working truck is running because im working at a job site not moving temps are -20 or 90 plus need heat or AC. How long would it take to drain battery pack?
As an OTR Trucker, I would think that longevity would be the major concern (cost per year to operate) for most trucking companies for electric trucks. At the company where I work, we keep trucks until they have somewhere between 850k - 1 million miles for OTR and then local until they hit 10 years old. These are general miles depending upon how much repair dollars are used to keep a specific truck rolling. I'm not sure how the cost of fuel would factor in, regardless, until the range of a fully loaded truck exceeds 650 miles, electric trucks would only be practical for local P&D.
I appreciate Andre doing these kinds of videos, but its clear how little most people know about how commercial trucks function. Regen braking would require no driver adjustment because it works the same as engine braking, you take your foot off the accelerator and the truck slows down. It even has three levels, just like engine brakes do, the only difference is you recharge the batteries instead of just slow down. It is that simple.
If you paid attention at 12:13 he says the range is based on the truck being loaded at 28,000 pounds. Not empty like the Ford Lightning or the Hummer or the Tesla. Is that a huge range, no, but school buses, trash trucks, local deliver or city trucks would likely be fine.
The reason no one has redesigned a commercial truck from the ground up to be EV is because there is no need waste the time doing it, when the chassis is designed to be openly configurable as it is. Everything on the EV is easily serviced just like the diesel, there is no reason to change that. By sticking with a standard truck chassis, you can easily bolt anything to it that bolts to the diesel truck meaning International's customers can use truck bodies and equipment they already have.
And lastly if you ran it completely out of power you would call a tow truck, just like you would if the engine quit working. Big tow trucks also have air brakes and you would hook the tow truck's air system up to the EV truck the same way you would a diesel truck with a blown engine.
actually if you'd pay attention, the Lightning's range was based on something like 1000 lbs of payload, not empty.
@@gregcavanaugh6259 so three or four dudes and a cooler, boy that really makes a difference. That is totally comparable to a truck loaded to within 4k pounds of it's maximum weight.
Jake Regen
Electric batteris work great in the winter an dlots of water and ice!
I retired from state of PA transportation. They bought two electric trucks to run deliveries they are both gone now.🤣😅
"The MV is a little more expensive." LOL! 😆
I work in design at Navistar! I am so excited to be seeing you guys involved in reviews of our products!!!
I used to work in Product Development for Navistar. Good company for young engineers.
You guys should change your parts licensing policies. They suck. I can get cheap parts for my Cummins BT6 just fine, making it practical. Try buying parts for my Navistar International DT466 and shit gets expensive fast. Makes it impractical.
Keep the EV's. I'm gonna roll coal on one today, just for Navistar
I work for peterbilt motors (just a factory floor worker) but i would love to see you get in contact with them to try out our electric truck. That being said, i think this push for fully EVs is ridiculous and don’t understand why there isn’t more of a push for hybrids to gather that great regenerative breaking and the benefits like better brake life while also using the motor to assist the engine in accelerating to improve fuel milage greatly while having the better range and quick fuel up needed in the truck industry.
Hybrids will be phased out
I agree with you. With a push towards hybrids instead of EV, the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions would happen faster, as more people would afford the difference in price, and the same amount of batteries will replace more ICE vehicles, thus less emitters
@@victorradu9645 meanwhile, hybrids will be phased out soon
@@bradmagnuson6963 We heard you the first time!
Duh, parrot it again!
@@BB-1990 doesn't mean you're listening, duh, keep being an ass
i used to do door to door deliveries, intermodal last mile, mostly to businesses and all around town, less then 10 miles from the dock. 15,000 pound truck, i would be back in to reload at least once a day, so for my use case with deliveries also in pedestrian only zones, an EV would have been perfect. Range would have never been an issue, especially since i had opportunity to re-charge during the day. Probably would have never taken more than 30 minutes. no fuel, no noise, no maintenance, brakes would probably last for ever with re-gen.
EVERY vehicle requires maintenance. Nobody could afford an electric truck with a government subsidy.
This is the thing that so many people who bitch about EVs seem to "forget" - electric power trains have their place. They may not work everywhere with the current storage technology, but there are plenty of use cases where they do. The one you describe is a great example. That being the case, I ask why *wouldn't* you use and EV there? Quieter, cheaper, and yes - lower maintenance. It's a no brainer.
@@langdons2848 the cities are good for ev's for sure with plenty of infrastructure to support it. But in the country/rural/mountain areas, diesel is the way to go
@@OfficialBravo6JeepLife that is true.
Start cost is 2.5 times. How many companies can afford this? Also load on the current network would make this very hard in hot weather where people are running aircons and overloading the network... sure diesel is expensive but it's freely available. Hydrogen offers the best answer to the challenges on electrical networks not EVs
The EV is wonderful for around town and in the yard but for long hauls definitely diesel all day
Another option would also be the that the companies with contracts can put chargers at unloading locations and charge while unloading. Just put a meter on the charger and pay the delivery place for the electricity used.
These are all excellent discussions. My background is in forklifts where electric-powered fork trucks have been around for decades. The real focus here needs to be the application. Like forklifts, sometimes an IC-powered unit is better, sometimes not. The focus of these trucks needs to be interurban deliveries, short distances, and lots of stop-and-start driving. That application is the hardest on IC trucks when fuel consumption, brakes, and transmission wear are considered. The bottom line is the application needs to dictate the equipment. When done correctly, the EV will outperform the diesel.
Another thing to consider: the cost of the EV includes a HUGE part of the fuel cost upfront...in the battery. If this vehicle is financed, the battery ("fuel") cost is spread over the term of the financing. If the cost of the diesel fuel used during the same period, less the cost of charging as was noted, it would be interesting to see where the numbers would end up. No one ever breaks that out but would be good to see it. That would make the comparison more on an equal level.
I'm a lineman and we work in extreme weather a lot. I am curious to see how these electric trucks hold up in that kind of climate.
speaking from experience in Alaska with electric buses they don't work well at all in the winter.
And how they’ll pull a real trailer …
@@samtuck6400 I'm here in Colorado and it has drastic temperature changes. I had a feeling they wouldn't hold up well in that type of work.
Supposedly they don't work in real hot or real cold weather very well
@@KyleSaucedo electric motors dominate in trailer pulling. The most efficient range on an electric motor is just above 0. That is where the most power is as well. Now, if you are pulling while red lining, then you need an ICE. There is a reason no one is talking about electric bulldozers, even though mines have been using hybrids for decades.
I'm skeptical when it comes to the financial viability on this, it just doesn't add up unless I'm missing something. The diesel truck should get ~8mpg, at $5.50/gal that comes out to $0.68/mile. On the EMV you stated that a level 2 charger would cost ~$50 for a full charge with a range of 135 miles, that comes out to $0.37/mile, clearly better but with the huge caveat that it will take overnight charging to refill the batteries so it is a once a day usage. With level 3 charging the time gets reduced to the stated 90 minutes in the video (still a long time compared to the 3 minutes to refuel with a high-flow diesel pump) but at an average of $0.50/kwh charge for use of the charger this comes out to $0.77/mile, higher than the diesel cost of operation. Now factor in the 3x sticker price and there is little to no business case that can be made for one of these trucks outside of a green metric for the company purchasing the vehicle...
Your numbers do not include maintenance. The Ev has essentially zero where the Diesel has continuous.
@@geoffrust6787 International states that their trucks need oil changes every 25k miles with an average cost of ~$300, so add a penny a mile, that is still 8 cents cheaper a mile versus level 3 charging. Add another penny for DEF and even another 2-3 for other random stuff (not really necessary under 100k miles) and it is still cheaper. The maintenance boogieman in modern engines doesn't appear until much later in life, the same will be the case for the electric versions...
@@geoffrust6787 Batteries need to be replaced every 10 to 20 years in non commercial vehicles. This thing is 4 times as heavy..... and will be driven as a job, not a leisure.... those batteries are not cheap
@@ford1chevy2dodge3 Even assuming the battery pack goes for 10 years, will International still support the platform when they wear out? Unless batteries get much much cheaper, it's going to be a huge cost to replace them. So anything saved on maintenance costs over time is going to add up to one big fat expense when the battery is due up for a change.
You are already 2.5x the initial buy in cost to start with lol... how much maintenance will that buy you over X amount of years in service... probably a LOT.
There are certainly some nice benefits of EV.. but cost wise (among other things) they aren't realistically better at this point in time.
@@silentbravo EV's arent ready yet. They are the future for sure. No argument there. They just don't make sense for everyone right now. Takes too long to charge. Range when towing is hot garbage. They're more expensive. Oh and if everyone dropped everything to have an EV, the power grid couldn't handle it
They could be the future, but they have a long way to go. As it stands now the range while towing will make it tough if you're hauling more than locally.
I think they will be perfect for local trucking, like FedEx/UPS delivery trucks etc.
Best thing about the MV is the power train international is notorious for having electrical issues especially in the class 8 LT commercial trucks. 135 mile range in the EMV is gonna be used strictly for in town use. I'm a diesel guy at heart but once they get the prices way lower and and the range well over 500 miles I'll stick with my diesel engines since they cost 3x less overall
Yep we have a Work on it all the time international.
Love how they say "in theory." In theory it should do this but it doesn't in actual practice.
In theory, it's 125 or 135 or so miles of range. But that's at a full charge. Like any EV, you'll want to avoid full charged and full discharged, because it'll wear out the batter. So, realistically, your mile of range will more in the territory of 80 miles, and that's under ideal conditions. In snow, on a hot day, going up and down hills, with a full load, even 80 miles will be optimistic.
100 miles - 1.5 hours recharge, or 500 miles - 10 minutes recharge. I don't know what to pick... so hard... if you ever worked on a truck on the road, you know there's no such thing as typical.. you can never predict anything. You might not always be next to a power outlet. Also 250k and 70k... this is a crazy difference
Yeah the price difference is MASSIVE. $180,000 savings means you can buy a fuckton of diesel. However I can see if a company is LEASING these trucks, they get to write-off the cost of the electric trucks AND save on the fuel side. That's where I think the bean counters will figure out if these trucks make sense in their fleet or not.
RE: BATTERY TECH:
Give battery engineers another 5-10 years and it's quite possible they'll have designed new battery tech that is more energy dense, faster charging and lower pricing. I know there is an Aluminum-Ion graphene battery technology out there being researched right now. They're showing about 3x the energy density of Li-Ion batteries which is cool BUT the big deal is they are showing the Al-ion batteries can charge 20-30x faster than their Li-ion counterparts and remain very cool while do it (AL and Graphene are very good at dissipating heat). Not only that but aluminum and carbon are abundant and relatively cheap. This kind of tech could catapult EV's to charge ahead in all kinds of markets.
$180k would pay for enough diesel to go 229k miles at $5.50/gal and 7MPG. At 100 miles per work day with the EV, it would almost 9 years to do that many miles.
@@Deezle_Gaming bingo!!
@@Deezle_Gaming and then replace the battery packs for $250 000
And who will end up paying the price difference ???
I love how they keep blowing up, more and more as people try to use them, to findout how explosive and toxic they are, Some guy lost his hole warehouse when it blew up, and burned everything down, after the fire was put out the truck batteries where still burning, and a few firefighters had to be put in hospital for lung issues
Battery fires are different in the way to out them out.
@@angelgjr1999 your flag is very telling
@@marsmars9130 In support of the people fighting for freedom from the Russian invaders.
yet as a percentage when compared to capita ...gas vehicles burn more often some gas cars have caught on fire when off leading to recalls....see ford and kia
Very cool..thanks for vid
It's pretty niche to be honest and at $250k vs $70 for a stock cab/chassis the up front cost is a barrier.
For a business owner you would also have to factor in having to install charging stations and be prepared to also maintain some Diesel rigs for jobs that run outside of the safe ranges of the EV.
Otherwise you might have turn down work because "my trucks can't get there." or you have rent what you need which adds extra costs.
In applications like tow trucks or boom lift trucks where you have a lot of high draw aftermarket equipment to power I don't see how practical a setup like this would be without reducing the allowed range or having maybe a diesel truck with a generator set on the back or a towed generator that can be brought in for support on longer jobs.
School buses are probably your best bet for entering the market because their constant breaking, well known short routes, and time in between uses would allow for charging at the depot.
Agree, our city busses here in Montreal are estimated to be priced at a million a piece Canadian (around 800k usd) each. A great idea, but who will pay for all that!? Yes the electricity here is dirt cheap, so great for Leaf and Tesla owners. But I'm not sure about EV busses and trucks that cost a lot. I imagine that Asian companies will start producing these vehicles and offering them at a bargain..
Totally agree, with a PTO setup it wouldnt make much sense. That would drain the battery very quickly. I drive a 2020 MV with a service bed with fluid tanks. My truck also has PTO to power air compressor and other pumps. It basically has to idle my whole shift. For that I dont see it working. But for local delivery might work. One thing I didnt hear them talk about the weight of the EV model. My truck is 29k pounds, I cant imagine adding all those heavy batteries.
@@JPTech933 You should check out the normal busses costs for us Canadians lol... They are as cheap as 500K but not the 40 ft units most want, those go for upwards to 750K esp once you account for hybrid systems etc (tho currency and inflation may have changed this). I do agree with the pricing for EVs however, even Tesla hasn't been able to keep a steady number for their own production lineup. Till we see a steady price for them I can't say everyone will be driving one as not everyone can afford their prices.
Tho I should also mention I still laugh at anyone who thinks they'll also get the MPG rating displayed on any vehicles windshield. Also since all transit systems are publicly ran here you can easily find out how much their fleet procurement is on their yearly spending reports that some agency shadily hide from view as much as possible...
Overall it cost far less to produce an EV. But the initial price is high because of RD and tooling.
@@lumberjackdreamer6267 you think it costs less to produce an ev? I don't see that being the case at all
24:18 “A little bit more expensive” It’s way more expensive with a very limited range and you have to replace the EV batteries. Not EV battery, but batteries.
Most semi trucks have more than one battery anyway.
@@dontrustwhiteyevery1 Yeah I’m very much aware. Giving my opinion from a truck driver’s pov. Your typical light EV only has a single battery unit. This commercial truck has multiple EV batteries and I’m sure they don’t come cheap. I currently drive a PTO truck and I run my PTO several hours each day. There’s no way possible an EV could be a viable alternative to traditional PTO truck, it cannot perform the same tasks in the same time frame. If you’re constantly running your vacuum pump and adding weight to your truck; your range will suffer dramatically. Not to mention all the additional add ons such as work lights, air accessories, pressure washers etc. I’d like to see how it compares to a diesel or even gas truck un deer real conditions.
@@dontrustwhiteyevery1 yeah, but which truck batteries have you ever bought that cost you $20k - $30k to have replaced?
No engine oil maintenance
No transmission maintenance
No fuel filters
No turbos, no EGR, no Injectors
No engine air filters, no MAF, no O2
No aftertreatment
It's not like the batteries will die in a matter of months. A lot of companies the degradation of batteries on EV's are 5-15% over 5-7 years. So what you lose in a battery you save on maintenance and fuel costs.
@@leftcoaster67 no transmission maintenance? Funny how moving parts wearing out or breaking no longer applies. 🙄
What is the diesel version cabin noise level? It sound accesive for modern diesel trock.
I can see electric trucks doing well in applications that are mostly short trips with lower overall utilization (like, only one shift per day). For long-haul trucking, range and time to recharge will be major obstacles in displacing diesels.
LOL, I don't agree. 2 round trips from LA to Irvine and I got to recharge for 90 minutes. 1 round trip from LA to Riverside and again I need to recharge.
And in LA multiply this by 100,000 or more truck and LA gets more brown outs?
Diesel Electric (Hybrid) would be way better than full on EV.
Hey TFL, I own a transportation company in Denver and also live in Boulder. We had the opportunity to drive the Nikola BEV and specialize in class 8 final mile frozen deliveries. I’d love to chat about business and finance of these Heavy EV’s.
Regarding the fuel cost, last week we had about $7,200 of diesel. In a week. Yikes!
Now many AMP service do you need to charge just 1 truck and for how long? Now the power grids gonna have to be upgraded and we’re gonna pay for it.
Jesus, that's nuts. TFL did say they're going to show the international class 8 EV concept soon. Shoot international an email, they might be able to sort you out.
Wait until they add in road taxes into your electric. Will feel pretty dumb having paid 3x the cost for the truck only to have them raise our electric rates.
@@FishFind3000 About 200A for every 3 trucks if you're medium speed charging at night and you only do one 12 hour shift per truck per day. Grid has a lot of excess capacity at night. Time of day rates will keep people charging at night, and give the power companies more money when they are traditionally less profitable.
$7200 is 1440 gal at $5 per gal. At 6MPG that's 8,640 miles. At 2kwh per mile (factoring in losses), that's 17,280 Kwh. At $.14 US average cost per Kwh that's a new weekly cost of $2420
Another great video. Thank you. Here’s the most important question, with that dump bed, what is the payload? Batteries are heavy. If all your payload is eaten by batteries than this is another fail for EV
Also would like to know what happens to the range with an actual payload.
@@dsauce8780 That’s the most important question.
@@dsauce8780 the quoted range is for being loaded at 28,000 pounds
@@jpe1 lot of manufacturers put out load range ratings that have proven to be completely false. On this channel they have shown that. We’ll see how this plays out in real applications. I think local EV is great ferrr the record (but if the diesel version can carry more payload with less down time and less annual maintenance costs it’s not going to last. A battery that doesn’t lose range each charging cycle would be a start. Then a battery that doesn’t go up like a magnesium firework when it’s pierced will seal the deal)
It's a special use vehicle.... It is not intended to replace the diesel lineup.
For instance, I watched a repair shop video where they put a 4th engine in an airport tug truck because it sits and idles all day, and never hits public roads so the DPF cannot regenerate properly. This would be a perfect use for an electric truck, not to replace a long distance hauler.
Where on the tachometer did you feel the power curve kick in?
I need to see a price comparison based on the diesel's range to see if the ev is actually viable
So you're saving around 60% in fuel cost (if charged at "home", because EV charging station will be more expensive) but you have to pay 2.5x more for the truck itself. How many miles are you gonna get from the battery packs before they need to be replaced? Diesel engine can do 1,000,000-1,500,000 miles before some major repairs are needed if serviced properly. It's definitely great for a highly congested places with stop and go traffic like NYC. Would love to know a long term cost comparison but for now it's all theoretical.
Medium duty engines don't go that many miles before rebuild. Really, it's about half that.
Fleet. Manager of a medium duty fleet here
No matter your objections, Diesels have a time limit. After 2030 most countries will have outlawed new purchases of internal combustion engines. EVs are getting better every year. In five years they may be at parity with ICE vehicles, both in range and affordability.
Diesel will be around for a long time. Because they arent making electric cranes, ships or anything else that mines the lithium for the batteries. Also you really think battery tech is going to advance in 8 years to be able to charge a semi truck in the same time it takes to fuel up a big rig? Also forcing people to by EVs is bad because its falsely propping up the EV market.
@@fgxw8 my only objection towards EVs is its exorbitant price and lack of cheap used vehicle. Even when buying used the idea of potential battery replacement and associated cost is scary. Motor replacement for a used ICE vehicle is so much cheaper.
You'd save $337,000 in fuel over 750,000 miles. I still think the truck is overpriced.
Interesting video and a good comparison. And, the commentary is surprisingly sophisticated and facts based. I'm not an EV hater but perhaps a bit of a healthy skeptic. I do believe there is a market for EVs, both personal vehicles and medium duty trucks. Lots of others get into the cost per mile, service life, and other details, so here are a couple of anecdotal things I noticed while watching. First, notice that the EV is a longer wheelbase than the diesel unit. That's not coincidence--you need the longer wheelbase to house all the batteries. If a customer needs the shorter wheelbase truck, they're stuck with a diesel unit. International's website confirms this (shortest wheelbase offered is 217" in the EV versus 128" in the Cummins). And second, my god do the EV's components look pieced together from kit parts by an aftermarket shop. Looks how the batteries hang below the chassis on an angle iron cage. Look how the traction motor is bolted to angle iron beneath the chassis. Look how the battery cooling is bolted onto the outside of the frame rail, with delicate cooling fan components exposed to the exterior and where they'll get hit every time the truck is loaded from the side. Not to mention salt exposure over time. Same story under the hood--it looks like a cobbled together collection of parts. This truck truly looks like a prototype--not a finished product. International rushed this to market using parts bin EV components.
Well said
So right on... how many times has a loading operator or weather jacked up stuff, or just driver error...
I have a hard time believing that, even with maintenance costs and fuel costs, that the cost of the EV version would even out before the dreaded battery replacement. The EV is less maintenance, but not maintenance free. The only thing different is that there is no Cummins engine, so the only costs of the maintenance that is offset is related to the engine system. Plus, if the EV parts are unique to the EV version, like driveline components and stuff, it could be more expensive and more difficult to get parts for it. Even though it is cheaper to charge than a diesel is to fill up, it is still a potentially substantial cost when you look at the cost per mile. In the end, I don't think the concessions needed to make an EV work as a service truck like this make sense. However, this design seems like they just used most of the legacy designs of a diesel truck and adapted it for an electric powertrain. I think the only way that an EV in the service truck industry would ever work is if it was a redesign from the ground up to mitigate the downsides of having all electric. Like lighter weight everywhere possible, less rotating mass, like that driveline, instead maybe mounting the motor where the differential is. Also, improving the aerodynamics, rolling resistance, suspension etc. could go a long way to getting more range.
I drove OTR forever.
The company I drove for about 7 years ago gave me a new Robo truck. Had things like anti-collision breaking. That truck used to average 8.7 MPG when running 70 -- 80,000 lb.
But deadheading you could actually squeeze 11 to 12 MPG. And bobtailing it did better than my Dodge pickup coming in at just over 18 MPG.
They should be concentrating on hybrid. It works for locomotives, with that and regen breaking wouldn't need as many batteries and would always run as long as you had diesel. That would make it feasible for OTR.
@Peter smith most trucks are disc now. But air brakes are a DOT mandate. That way in the event of a failure of any kind, including air Supply the brakes still work. That is till they lockup.
But no doubt the air takes a few horsepower to operate.
1 hp = 750 Watts.
Even if it made sense I wouldn't look for the government to change anything in a timely fashion. It took over 20 years to get the 55 mph speed limit back up.
Rapidly losing air pressure in a big rig brings its own set of scary circumstances.
I blew a brand new right front tire just outside Birmingham Middle Lane of a five Lane Highway. I was going 64 mph. As the rubber blew apart it tore the airline off with it. So not only did I have to deal with the flat, the wheel was locked up as well. I used the Johnny brake the slow the truck down while crossing too the shoulder and then the off-ramp. (fortunately there was one there) The truck still wasn't stopped by the time all the brakes locked. At least that happened at slower speed. Fortunately it didn't jackknife or roll the truck. Had I instinctively just jab the brakes the front end would had dipped and things would have been even fuglier.
Just wait until the battery has to be replaced. It isn't a couple hundred dollars to replace. It's tens of thousands.
Sure the battery replacement is going to be a big cost. But that is after like 15 years of hard work. BEVs cam survive very high mileage during their short life. This will just be a cost that has to be factored in. It is no where close to as expensive as maintaining a diesel drive train and brake system over the same amount of time. Your bad assumptions does not understand the massive difference in cost Over Time.
@@paulbankard1525 True every 15 to 20 years.
You could fuel an entire fleet of trucks for years with the additional money you would spend on one of these electrical units. They need to drastically drop in price to make them affordable. Also just looking at the way the batteries and the battery controller are laid out it looks very shabby with a lot of exposed wires and connections. This is an experimental unit at best.
Quit being a naysayer! Change is going to come with your like it or not! Batteries will get better and prices will come down. Are you still using the dial phone and a victrola?
Comparing both vehicles side by side the ICE version is infinitely better. It is 1/3 the price, no charging, reliable, far better range, etc. I own a business and there is no way I would ever purchase one of these as they are a complete waste of money. Maybe in 10 years when the technology has some time to catch up to ICE trucks but right now and for the next several years diesel trucks will rule the road. I am just calling this vehicle out for what it is, an over complicated, over priced, under performing piece of garbage.
@@lightningstrikestwice6302 the government didn’t have to mandate the change from horses to cars. People made the choice as the tech just made sense for most people. So why does the government have to mandate the change to EVs? Not to mention the full switch from horses to the ICE took 50+ years..I’m not saying EVs aren’t the “future”, but the tech is a loooong way from being reasonable for most people
This is really neat to see. My first thought when I saw the idea of an EV big rig was “all the cargo being slammed in the back by the torque” but that’s neat that they made it feel like a normal diesel truck. Another advantage I see here is the lack of gears - in the ice, those auto transmissions shift really hard and it’s easy to lose traction due to the shifts. With no gears and hard shifts, that makes it potentially easier to deal with
It will use far less electricity also!
I drive an international Lt. with an automatic transmission don’t it shifts smoothly and I don’t have any problems with loss of traction
Ut got 1700 foto pounds of torque, int her witner or rainign or road salt. It is tough!
very true, never thought of that. i once lost control of a moving truck because of that. nothing serious, but it could have been.
Does the maintenance cost include replacing the batteries? Many of us have recently read about the Ford focus that has a $14,000 replacement cost (realistically much more since you can't actually purchase them any more). I imagine these batteries are significantly higher in cost.
Also, electricity prices are cheap.... for now. Just wait until they "necessarily sky-rocket" so we can make the switch to the unreliable wind and solar forms of electricity. If people truly want EVs to replace combustion engines, they must support Nuclear energy. Keep in mind, actually replacing all combustion engine vehicles is several decades away, probably at least a century.
I've never heard of a Ford focus ev, I think you mean Cmax winch isn't even a full EV just a hybrid...
I wonder if reality is ever going to step in front of the push to switch to EVs. The US consumes 13 million barrels of oil per day for transportation fuel. Back of the envelope calculation shows that's the equivalent of 700 nuclear power plants output. The last two nuclear reactor projects in the US (Georgia and South Carolina) bankrupted Westinghouse in 2017. 50% of nuclear reactors ever ordered in the US were cancelled due to cost overruns. It takes 10-15 years to build one plant. So maybe, if the US dedicated huge investment in nuclear we could build 2 plants every 10 years or something like that. If every solar panel installed in the US is dedicated to vehicle charging it will take decades to replace the power provided by fossil fuels for transportation, and there will be solar panels everywhere.
@@KevinKimmich44024 Lol, most solar panels and lithium batteries are made in China.. Lol, Crazy.. Smart move America!
@@KevinKimmich44024 The government doesn't mind inconvenience. The taxpayers are gonna pay for it anyways... Not the businesses or the government.
87fordmustang,
You make some great points, except, California, Washington, and New York want ALL diesel engines gone out of those states by 2035, that's only 13 years from now. If I lived in any of those states I would move now. ( I am thankful I don't live I any of those states) those folks will wind up starving, or worse.
Think of EV regenerative braking as similar to using the engine retarder on most commercial trucks. It feels the same.
Why cant they just have the front wheels power a generator to charge itself while driving? If you're on the open road you aren't going to be breaking and charging your battery. I don't know why they haven't implemented that.
@@punisher3607 if they were to do that, they'd be wasting more battery by fighting against the generator. That's a waste of energy, and also basic physics.
@@jurchiks Or just have solar panels on the roof of the vehicle or something like that ? I know it's not always sunny, but just an idea.
@@punisher3607 This truck has a tiny roof though. Now 18-wheelers... For sure.
There are some passenger cars with solar panels on them, too few IMO, but for large trucks that is a far more useful idea.
However, the #1 thing to optimize is aerodynamics, followed by weight, followed by efficiency of everything that's in the car (drivetrain, heating, cooling, any other electronics).
Both are beautiful. They will be popular and useful for all types of things. The firetruck will be awesome to see. A backup diesel generator will probably be needed for on site recharge and powering the hydraulic systems, pumps and tools. Eelectric and juiced up they can get up to speed a bit faster, perfect performance for first responders where seconds matter and budgeting fuel cost to save money for communities, organizations, agencies. Well done and keep on keeping on.
Fire vehicles are exempt from the requirements. Also, a fire truck towing a generator is ludicrous.
I dont think its tuned down so cargo wont fly off the back. 19 seconds is still slow. 10 seconds would still be slow but way better.
Its tuned down to get every bit of range into it.
I wonder if that and they don't want to pull to many amps from the batteries since it's got a Lifepo4 battery system.
Higher power wouldn't hurt range. Whatever they say about programming, the motor is just selected for power comparable to the diesel, because a larger motor (and the larger inverter needed to go with it) is both unnecessary and more expensive.
The point that I was wanting to here talked about was the expected life of the battery, details that I have seen is the battery life,, shortens by use and the number of charges,, but begins to loose range noticeably at around 4/5 years, and is normally up for replacement in 7 years. The cost of which far, far exceeds the cost of diesel used for similar mileage, and maintenance of that engine in that period. And nothing was said about destruction of the old battery.
THIS!! ☝☝☝
Science isn't standing still. 2022 is the year of the most ever weekly announcements of new tech. 10x cheaper batteries (LiIon, most expensive ones). And safer. There are BEV cars that have exceeded 1M miles. I have 50k miles, 4 years, and still >90% capacity.
In china, most cars that use lfp batteries have a lifetime warranty. outside of China they supposedly give 5-7 years.
EV is more a toy car for the rich like a huge I phone. It is dangerous because it can burn itself and burn the surrounding cars and houses. Be very careful if you park your car next to EV
@@ellau5850 how many times have EVs burnt vs gas stations and gas vehicles? Sadly gas fires are common. We just don't read about it cause it's boringly common. I've seen in person people burning to a crisp inside an ICE car.
18:10 what happened to that cable at the bottom of the screen, the yellow and blue connector.
I don't know if there is a leasing business model the USoA, but this may be viable for a switched on truck lease company to get into for local businesses?
I agree that it would work for local delivery vehicles, school busses and possibly gas/water utility trucks. Any job where it can sit overnight to recharge. I wonder why hybrid is not tried. Diesel electric locomotives have been in-use for 70 years. It would add weight and space concerns but allow the diesel to charge the batteries for longer routes.
Didn't he say it would recharge in 90 min
@@1968roadrunnerred Isn't 90 minutes a long time when running a business. 90 minutes of not making money.
Look at Nikola.. the hydrogen fuel cell will be the long range future.
Check out Edison motors, its a startup thats building trucks using the locomotive style driveline
weight is the main reason, and in trucks the heavier the truck is the less weight you can carry as there are weight limits in place
I still think the base price difference is wayyyyy too much for the benefits. What about the longevity of the batteries?
Fleet buyers will jump to electric very fast for the ROI, and just like in cars, the batteries will outlast the trucks.
I have driven trucks with 500k miles, and still running strong. No battery will last that long.
West and southwest of Denver, there are some seriously hilly highways. I'd imagine the battery regeneration would work fantastically there.
The eMV is it winter Blizzard proof I notice the battery has cooling fans won't they freeze in winter weather and the driveline would freeze up living in Alaska ??,. Just curious thank you
SO much more efficiency to be had in these vehicles. 135 miles from a 210kwhr pack is extremely poor even for this vehicle weight. Lots of optimizations needed in aero here.
The heavier you are and the more you have accel decel the less aero matters. Trucks like this are not the same as long haul trucks its a different load demand so aero is a part of it but not as much as you might think
Just wondering what the range would be if they linked that motor to an Allison autobox.
@@ramblingman8992 nothing. the autobox is there to compensate for the narrow rpm range of a truck and keeping it at peak torque for maximum effiency. now an electric block? imagine a semi doing 15000 rpm. same thing, but the pistons arent visiting mars cuz there's none (it's an hyperbole). EV's with gearboxes are non reversible polarity types and that boils down to 1 gear forward and 1 gear reverse. ie beetle trans evs run in 3rd or 4th and the other gears arent needed. you dont need trans losses if there is 1500 newtons available at 0 rpm till 5200... you just chug along. that's how the regera works, by the way. the electric motor eliminates the trans.
Stop and go traffic these are perfect. So much quieter and nicer for the driver
how long do the battery packs last before they need to be replaced?
So much of this truck non ev reminds me of the Marines MTVR which came out while I was serving in Okinawa.
EV really cool, I look forward to seeing more on the road. Thanks.
A key factor you conveniently left out, your range loaded will be reduced significantly than the figure you gave with no load.
He gave the range based on being loaded at 28,000 lbs if you were paying attention
Fun to see! Every time they show an aspect of the truck, I imagine areas of improvements in aero, drivetrain, pack density, and size. These will only get better and more efficient over time. I like that even with electric, it looks highly serviceable. With LFP packs, these may have a very long lifetime too if you keep the frame and suspension maintained, we'll just have to see.
The batteries have two short of a lifespan they haven't fixed that right yet they need more research
@@kirkslayden834 I've been using LFP batteries in my race car for 8 years now, hundreds of duty cycles, and racing is about the most abusive thing for batteries, and the batteries have about 95% of their original capacity. So no, the lifespan isn't "too short."
@@jpe1 What kind of racing do you participate in? Interesting that you`re using BEV.
@@frederickbooth7970 he races to the next charging station. 🤣
@@kirkslayden834 how do you know that these batteries have a "two short" of a lifespan?
Great, do these vehicles operate in -32 with no charge externally. Seems like a lot maintenance
Great review and comparison. EV trucks have a special place depending on the type of work, mostly short-distance deliveries (the school bus example is perfect), but the diesel engine still beats it, so long as it's a truck. Keep the reviews coming! Greetings from Nairobi, Kenya.
Also, where temperatures can get VERY hot in Kenya, that could spell doom for the batteries that power EVs. Extreme hot AND cold temperatures kill the EVs batteries, and as the INDIVIDUAL batteries are VERY expensive to replace, imagine having to purchase 3-4-5 batteries--only to risk killing them again from exposure to extreme heat?! VERY, VERY impractical application. Besides, diesel fuel runs under any temperature and condition. It's really the best all-around fuel in the world.
@null null Apparently you've never heard of FUEL ADDITIVES?? You know, preventing gelling, fuel line freezing, or increasing cetane levels ring a bell?? Or mixing 20% BIODIESEL with 80% petroleum diesel enabling engines to run for VERY long cycles without incident.
Larger point being, diesel fuel is VERY FLEXIBLE, and GIVES YOU OPTIONS, whereas there is ZERO flexibility when it comes to frigid OR extremely hot conditions and car batteries.
Glad to have helped enlighten you, Fredo ;)
@null null Yep, you're a dope. Hence my reference to GELLING, or CETANE LEVELS. Here's a newsflash, Fredo: diesel that has higher cetane levels doesn't have to work as hard to warm up and can make starting in cold weather much easier.
Ask yourself why Canadian truckers OVERWHELMINGLY RELY ON DIESEL FUEL IN WINTER MONTHS?? Duhhhh, could it be because they use the aforementioned FUEL ADDITIVES to keep diesel working in often frigid conditions. Again, glad to further enlighten you, Fredo (that is assuming you know where Canada is located).
@null null I guess you have never seen ice road truckers.
That diesel service truck is exactly what I need. But I want an older one. After treatment systems just add cost and complexity. I’m a diesel mechanic, so I need to be able to fix my rig easily, quickly, and wherever I might be at that time, so I can fix everyone else’s trucks. Simplicity is extra important with these supply chain issues. Less parts and sensors means less downtime. An electric truck is absolutely useless to me.
interesting comment, what is your typical range for a call? and how much time per call? i would have expected a diesel mechanic spending most of the time working rather than driving?
@@uliwehner it’s not necessarily just range, I often leave my truck running to power battery chargers, or run electric tools, air compressor, lights, etc. most of my calls are not roadside, since I specialize in doing bigger jobs, (and it helps keep my costs down) I’m typically going out to a trucking companies lot to do repairs, which is pretty often just a fenced in empty lot. I’m also fairly regularly pulling a 12 plus hour day. Adding to the problem, I don’t have a shop, and I don’t have the means to charge my service rig. Power goes out often in my corner of rural Washington, especially in the winter. Sometimes I only have five or six hours between my work days, which isn’t enough time to recharge one of those trucks anyway. There’s a long list of reasons, some are practical some are personal, but the best system for me is diesel power.
@@Matt-vz5wy not arguing with you, just curious. most of my truck use is a 99F250 superduty 7.3 towing a 28 foot trailer to nascar races, just about all of them out of range for an EV. this truck will probably keep doing this job for the next 20 years without complaining.
@@Matt-vz5wy maybe an APU would be cheaper to run than idling the engine?
@@uliwehner it might be, but I’m currently using an 02 f350 with the 7.3 also. My air compressor runs off the drive belt on the engine, and I’m using power inverters to charge and power my electric tools. Not ideal, but it works. APU isn’t a bad idea, but I don’t have room for one at the moment. Part of why the truck in this video would work well for me. I’m ready for an upgrade, even though I love my 7.3.
I still think a true hybrid would be a better solution and a small battery for surge and accessory loads. Smaller engine running at a optimal rpm constantly would save a ton of fuel vs an engine coupled to a transmission.
For longer routes, yeah. But as the international representative said, these e-trucks are optimal for city use or short routes. If you need more range, you go for the diesel.
@@carl8790 problem is in 5 years what's going to happen with the battery? When they're done for the truck will be mechanically totaled because new packs will exceed the value of the vehicle.
@@bad05ford both you and I will not know what the cost of a replacement battery pack will be in the next five years. You also don't need to replace the entire battery pack. As more EVs enters the road, opportunities for repair shops will come by.
That's if battery manufacturers deliberately make their battery pack impossible to repair, which is what the buyers of these vehicles should be beware of. So, we'll see how it goes in the next 5 years.
@@carl8790 drm has made its way into multiple bms systems. Now if they don't implement it they should be serviceable by shop's such as electrified garage.
exactly, a small engine running on its ideal rpm coupled to a generator
Thank you for this review, on my personal opinion I don't see how I can save more money in maintenance in the electric truck than diesel, maybe save in fuel but the cost 3 times more money plus the time you have to wait recharging the truck and time cost more money than what some people think, but again this is my opinion I prefer a diesel, Thank you for posting videos like this, you explained very well, I give you 5 stars.
What is the resale / trade-in / depreciation comparison?
Short distance use in cities is perfect for electric. Less wear and tear and no blowing money out your exhaust in traffic
Our pickup and delivery truck that is used around metro Atlanta runs 8 hours a day and covers over 200 miles. This electric truck wouldn't make a half of a day before it was dead on the side of the road. There has to be a massive increase in range before it's ready for primetime.
That is what these trucks would be doing short trips around the City
A 100-mile range with the Lightning towing is a "flash in the pan". After the battery box wears out, who will have the $15-20,000 for a replacement? Recharging at home or on the road will cost you. Charging stations on the road won't have restrooms or window washing facilities but will steer you into a Wal-Mart. Eventually, EV owners will have to ante up money at registration time to cover the lost fuel taxes. How long will it take to replace the estimated 250 million vehicles on US roads? Can this be done by 2030? Don't think so. Windmills in Texas stop turning when it gets hot. Solar panels on the east coast are subject to hurricanes, tornados, rain, inclement weather, snow, night, and cloudy skies. It's all a big pipedream.
Ohio is already charging EV owners around $200 to register. I agree it is a pipe dream. EVs and green energy are probably net consumers of fossil fuels--just another drain on resources. The amount of energy used to propel the transportation fleet in the US is staggering. It will take centuries to replace it with any other energy source. It makes sense to pursue the R&D and work out all the problems with batteries, etc... before going to mass consumer scale. It's just a foolish plan.
Used car lots everywhere full of EV's with dead batteries.
Love to see the innovation. Can’t wait to see their next products!
EV’s are improving but still not there yet for most applications. Lighter, faster charging, more power dense batteries and lowering initial costs need to to be addressed before it becomes the standard. I don’t have a big problem with tax incentives to get this technology on its feet but that should not be counted on to make it economically feasible in perpetuity.
Thanks for the quick look at these trucks with real numbers, much of what I’ve seen from other sources has been pretty vague. Good video 👍
its going to be a similiar but different transition there was a time with no gas stations....just hitching posts
As of right now it depends on your application. If you tend to stay local and not drive very long distances than the ev will benefit you greatly vs a diesel. If you go cross country or do very long trips on a daily basis then an EV may not be quite as beneficial due to the more limited range and longer more consistent charging times, so a diesel might be the better option in that case. The battery and charging tech isn't quite the best yet to completely replace gas/diesel for long distance travelers, but with how far it has come in such a short time it'll be a small matter of time before it improves to the point where it can.
Something I haven't seen in this conversation is hours of service issues. This alone, for me, makes EVs 150mi range maximum vehicles. Otherwise, you're shut down for your 10hr break while it charges, and you sure aren't running 11/14 on a single charge, meaning less miles and either less pay, or higher cpm pay to make it up, leading to a significant increase in cost to ship.
I'm all for EVs, but barring a sea change in power density and battery weight, it really is looking more and more like local trucks are the biggest beneficiaries of the new tech.
AND how many houres you have to wait on the fuel-station? You think there is ONLY 1 electric truck that wants to charge???????? electric cars are useless if you can not drive it for 600 miles in 1 day........
He said 90 minutes to charge.
Yep well it's that or swapable battery packs. My money is on hydrogen for OTR
@@davidp2707 🎯👍
@@davidp2707 the problem with swappable packs is swapping stations, the added weight if your not using stations, and those batteries are just too expensive.
Yah the battery conditioning box on the side should hold up great during the winter
OK I want one, now how much does it cost to own the diesel model W/AT and all the extras included?
Interesting that they are using lithium iron phosphate. Those batteries should last forever.
What a great review. You guys really think out of the box when it comes to doing reviews. Not just your average car reviews but all kinds of interesting vehicles it sometimes we just take for granted like these trucks. Thanks for doing it really loved it to keep up the good work I hope you continue to do these kind of reviews.
I drive an all electric Peterbilt. I can say it's fun to drive and it's pulls extremely good.
😆🤣 at the rattle @ 17:20
Amazing build quality. 👍🏼
Imagine listening to that 8+ hours a day...
They will need to get the price more inline to be competitive with this
New tech is always expensive.
Running costs with the EV are about 40% less.
true dis. up front costs always count for more than invisible savings.
@@Krieghandt Fleets don’t buy these. They rent or lease.
@@Krieghandt Also what is the resale value.
Would this be possible for a firetruck or EMS application, and how effective would it be for sustained stationary pto work, as well as travel distances. Would it be more cost effective than a diesel counterpart. Is it also 110 trickle charge compatible.
Could definitely see this for a fire truck. They idle 99% of the time so for high use fire departments it could save a lot in fuel costs. Would just need a diesel back up generator at the station in case of power outages to keep em charged.
I can't see EV being practical in these applications with the huge loads required to operate these things, rhe battery's would drain very quick
pirce makes an ev already
Thank you, I learned a lot
How long is the warranty for the propulsion system? IGBT failures are very common in hybrid and fully electric with transit. One inverter replacement is similar price to an engine.
I think that's a valid concern, since the inverter is a very expensive component. A long warranty would be good. On the other hand, in production EVs (so far mostly just cars) inverter failures are rare.
I'm curious what the 0-60mph would be if the "feels like a diesel" were uncapped.
Would probably smoke the diesel making it a reasonable consideration over its conventional counterpart. But that would make too much sense.
It's worth keeping in mind that the environmental impact of just about any product tends to scale with it's cost.
We had some demo units at the international dealer i work for. Unfortunately only really practical application we could find is probably school buses and short delivery trucks due to the low range and long charge times. There is no PTO option for these trucks yet. We had a customer bring us two brand new MV flatbed tow trucks to pull the Diesel engine out to have an aftermarket EV conversion done because international doesn’t offer a PTO version.
Would love to see the EV tow truck in action! Can you get the customer to do a video?
@@crhu319 if the trucks come back to us. Ill see what i can do about that. We pulled the engines and sent them out for the conversion. They are attaching an EV motor to the factory Allison to allow the PTO operation.
Seems to me this would be a good candidate to use for towing and recovery chassis...
Yes, but they do need high voltage power export (or "electric PTO") to make that practical. Those towing and recovery rigs could use electric motors for winches, and a electrically driven hydraulic pump to service hydraulic cylinders, but need more power than the low-voltage system can reasonably provide.
I think it’s a great idea but I am curious how long the battery will last(years) and the cost to replace. One of the things I like about ICE vehicles is the fact that you could buy one that is 7-10 years old and save a lot on depreciation. I am curious how this will go in the used market.
Batteries cost 40-60% of the costs, if used regularly and charged often, they wont last 6 to 7 years at max
I have an 8 year old PHEV. I still have about 3/4 of new range. As expensive as cars are new and with battery prices dropping I'm considering replacing the battery before getting a new car. The next item to go bad in the car would be the transmission. My car "payments" go into a brokerage account and stays invested until the family needs the money. I've been making these "car payments" for a decade or so.
great point. friend told me he had seen that an electric car had a 2x footprint vompared to gas by the end of their respective lives. don't know if thats true or not. see vids on child labor digging raw materials that go into batteries. is that a cost that is factored in? lets peel the entire onion. both vehicles make sense as do many things we should be considering. Short term goals, mid term goals and long term goals. where i live on the n.c. coast we have 2 ways in.(3rd is a ferry system) # of weekly visitos is estimated at 300k-500k per week. yes those are the numbers quoted. what happens when we have a huricane and the beaches are evacuated? how do you charge all those vehicles? traffic jams ect. going west the interstate is 3÷ hrs away. just a thought.
@@robertkwiatkoski1292 it is true, a electric car making creates a larger footprint than a ic car would in its lifetime
ICE cars depreciate the minute you drive it off the lot, and drops in value the older it gets.
It really is nice seeing an apples to apples comparison between two of the same chassis. I've done the same in my own research with Peterbilt and Kenworth class 8 trucks comparing the electric versions of the same chassis. One of the costs that they don't mention that I'm very curious about is the price to change out batteries in the electric. They claim that the "overall maintenance costs" of the electric are down but if you consider changing batteries that cost hikes way up. Take a look into the world of Tesla's battery changes with them often costing $22,000 and the buyback rate for one of those to the dealership is $500 if the battery is dead. I am concerned that they simply not telling this they make electric to look a lot more inviting than they really are. Also expected life out of one of those battery packs and not to mention half the range for twice the price The only advantage or reason to buy one of these is because you want to buy an electric.
Edit: sorry almost a quarter of the range
Daimler's BEV long haul freight truck battery packs are a huge 550kwh. In this application BEV tech does not make sense to me. I figure the pack will deplete at 150k-200k miles. Every 2 years a new battery pack? What I'm waiting for is a plug-in hybrid PHEV long haul with 110kwh packs matched to diesel, gasoline or combustible hydrogen ICEngines. The PHEV pack is more of a "light duty" application so I figure they'll last closer to 200k miles before replacement. Translation: Five PHEV 110kwh truck packs will deliver ONE million miles of goods transport while BEV packs deliver only 150k-200k. Almost a no brainer application preference for PHEV over BEV. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
@@artlewellan2294 El Dorado is making buses with the cummins 6.7 and an electric motor inline so they are true hybrids. i dont know much about them. They are building a bunch of them for San Francisco. We custom made one for carb/epa testing and certification at my shop about 5 years ago.
You are confused because the smart part of you knows the whole EV dream is stupid. Yet you are expected to "be nice" and find a way to fit this lie in with that. This is the purpose of nonsense, to confuse you and diminish you into accepting and acting your approval of something you know to be a lie.
@@orthopraxis235 Dude, go rent a Chevy Volt for a couple weeks before you say it is all nonsense. The systems work, if you don't drive too far. That being said, there is still a lot of engineering needed to make it work for work trucks. I borrowed my coworkers Volt, it was impressive. Battery replacement costs are deal killers though.
I work in Fire and EMS I could see these as a perfect option for ambulance application. Alot of the departments are gonna have to be dragged kicking and screaming down that route but it really makes alot of sense. Constant access to charging at the station or hospital even could work we already have shoreline plugs at the hospitals I frequent it wouldn’t be a hard change over. Rarely do we drive more than 40 miles round trip for a call and that would be like once a month maybe. Plenty of juice for the AC and lighting on the box and interior compartment power draw is really not that much people over estimate what a cardiac monitor and fluid warmer and a few other odds and ends draw. Also would be nice to be able to sit outside and write reports with the truck ac on and not killing the entire ER with diesal fumes🤷♂️😂
At over 2x the cost not many gov't shops are going to buy the EV.
@@hbudsmalley6317 You would be amazed at the cringe worthy expenditure that comes out of my counties coffers its not just the Fire Dept. But State highway etc. etc. if It were up to me we would be using type 3 sprinters but god forbid we give up 10k pound box truck ambulances that are a total cost waste all for looks and no function. The europeans run there ambos with way more kit than us and stuff a doctor on there at times and there doing it in There equivalent of our Ram Promasters. I definitely will agree it is a reach for smaller counties and municipalities but big tax base systems love throwing money around
@@hbudsmalley6317 Capital cost is an issue, although full life cycle cost should be lower.
Check out the eFX ambulance built by Demers on a Lion5 chassis from Lion Electric.
There is a very important part that I didn't hear addressed, although I could have missed it, is the estimated battery life expectancy and cost of replacement batteries. Was it mentioned, or was it left out on purpose ?
Gullible people think the battery will last for hundreds of thousands of miles like the diesel. Anyone with any common sense knows damn well the battery will degrade noticeably in five years and junk in ten
@@derekflanary6811 ..and probably cost 30k+ to replace, so that's 3k a year in fixed cost at minimum for batt replacement.
@@frodomocho1211 That's why I made that comment. They aren't cheap and I wanted to make that point.
@@derekflanary6811 This isn't a phone battery. EV batteries in cars are already running 100's of thousand of miles with minimal degradation. With good battery management and conditioning, like appears to be happening with this design, there is no reason the batteries should not be fully useable in 300k.
That's great, go waste your money
The EV seems like a good fit for a power company.
Maybe for meter readers and such.but the big work trucks spend to much time idling to run hydraulics.
@@lesleyboeder1798 Electric vehicles don't need to idle. That's one of the avantages. Thank you for your comment!
You failed to pay attention for the reason they idle. Running the hydraulics.
This would make an excellent truck for construction supply companies. When I was a crane operator I often was traveling 100km than idling at 1100rpm for a couple hours to run the hydraulics and frequently regenerating the exhaust as a result...and wasting fuel. Good vidjéo fellas🤙
was going to leave a comment like electric in town and diesel for highway...but thats pretty much what all the comments say too. Good review, learned a lot, thanks.
What about the cost of battery replacement and how often?