I drove a oxygen delivery truck in for 10 years, Chevy box truck with about 10,000 lbs. my route was in one suburb 5 days a week, less than 50 miles a day 8-12 hours. I could see an EV doing great on this specific route. I ran a 454 with automatic, the engine never broke down, but numerous starters, alternators, and the a/c was constantly getting fixed, I got 6 mpg.
lol the range is absolutely pathetic on this thing, if u loaded this up with anything the range would be cut down to like 60-70 miles or more lmao, electric vehicles=toys just like electric mowers=toys
You could buy 3 diesel trucks for the price of 1 EV truck, so you have to factor that into any equations you do regarding the practicality of the vehicle.
It makes a lot of sense to use the ev where it shines and the diesel where it shines. People get stuck in their ideologies but really, things like school bus routes and local delivery are great use cases and use the diesels where the ev's make less sense.
Exactly you took the words out of my mouth I’m tired of the extremes this would be perfect for so many applications, but not every application and that’s ok.
Yes and the same is true of any EV. Not all use cases make sense. For me and my pre-COVID use case having an EV made perfect sense because I was saving around $200/month in energy costs plus an additional savings in maintenance. However I was only driving about 100 miles/day on my commute. I also had a charger installed in my garage so I could charge overnight and get the lower rates at my house vs a L3 charging station. I have only had to use a Supercharger a handful of times and that was mostly just to see how they worked. I can't tow my boat with my EV and if I am taking a long trip with all of my stuff I tend to take my pickup truck even though it will cost me more in fuel and in maintenance. To me it is worth the extra costs to save the time and to be more comfy. It really is a matter of using the right tool for the job.
They just passed a several million dollar bond in my small town to replace the school buses. Would love to hear them propose a 3x the cost same bond so they can go "green".
These are both "performance machines" but the performance of a truck like this isn't measured by 0-60 time but by the load it can haul and/or the trailer it can tow.
@@davidfromamerica1871 If that is the case then electricity pricing will sky rocket anywhere the electric vehicles are in use. Is all just moving goal posts to make electric seem like it's the natural now cost effective easier way to go which it is not and better than the alternative which it is also not. Electricity is not free or cheap and if it was then these pipe dreams of electric vehicles would actually be what they said lol. Most people that bought an electric vehicle are selling them because they are not what they seem and electricity to run them is very very expensive. Imagine running your cloths dryer every night all night long when you are sleeping now Imagen how many extra hundreds of dollars a month on electricity your bill WILL go up and up and up and it will never get cheaper. Hybrid electric motor to assist the primary ICE motor and ICE motor to keep the battery pack charged up is a better more realistic option. If a person can develop zero point energy then Electric would be the way to go.
@@leanlifter1 "Most people that bought an electric vehicle are selling them because they are not what they seem" .... Really? Where`d you get those statistics? "Electricity is not free or cheap" "your bill WILL go up and up and up and it will never get cheaper." ...... And diesel/gas is cheap? Not sure if you`ve noticed the prices going up more & more over time, & everyone with EV`s are saying "fueling" costs are massively reduced with EV`s, as well as servicing & maintenance being almost non existent. Those savings are even more significant when using commercial vehicles like this. "If a person can develop zero point energy then Electric would be the way to go"... Both solar & wind generators are fairly common, You could then be entirely self sufficient if you have the room.
@@leanlifter1 this can only literally happen with government interference, if you were to allow the free market, things wouldn't be getting dire for diesel like in your prediction.
I think going Diesel-Electric hybrid woiuld be much more practical than full electric. They can get full electric to work, but definitely cant be anything more than local freight
@@tedbaxter5234 I wonder if it could still be more reliable if the diesel is just used as a generator instead of driving the axle and being assisted by an electric motor. The diesel wouldn't be subjected to the varying loadings and rpm changes needed to drive the axles, and electric motors are very reliable. The combined breakdown rate of the two systems might be less than the breakdown rate of a diesel engine.
Nothing green about it .. all the stuff to make it Paint wire and so on .Like Renewables No such thing it requires Energy to make and lots of it ,Plastic's for insulations From oil ... No, Phones,, The big Lie ...Australia ..
I could see the EV truck being great for short distance runs in town or even on site only usage. The down side, all of the electronics, battery conditioner, wiring looms and connectors are going to be trouble in places like Western New York, Toronto and Montreal with the copious amounts of salt used in the winter. It gets onto (and INTO) everything.
Agreed! My car is 5 years old and my pipe to the muffler just disconnected because of rust. I looked under the car, I think even the spare tire under the trunk section, I would not be able to use because the rust has seized it as well!
Learn to drive without salt. Salt affects everything it touches. Education is key. I have driven on ice and snow, I just stay off if the weather is too bad.
@@richarda996 You can have days of wet slushy weather in the Toronto area during the winter. Not possible to not be working for days. Most electric cars have all of the electronics hidden away and I'm sure as these go forward they will do the same.
@@richarda996 Exactly!! That's what we do in northern and western Canada, sand only. Toronto, Montreal and NE USA seems to be obsessed with using salt.
Perfect for urban delivery, Public Works, Military bases for maintenance, transit, school busses (recharge between morning and afternoon trips). No one is saying these will replace IC engines yet but it doesn't hurt to use them where they make sense.
Except it costs 3X as much as the trucks typically used for those low mileage duties. Makes no sense. This is the answer to a question no one is asking.
@@Viccus476 Like everything else, the price will come down. Some simple folk have a real difficult time accepting change. Besides, they'lle save that in fuel costs over the life of the vehicle, and before drivle on about battery replacement, the savings in maintenance will easily pay for batteries. Relax bruh, you can keep your vroom vroom machine... for a little while.
FWIW, if you think IC engines in service rigs, sitting at idle for four out of eight hours per day is "low mileage" then you aren't considering things clearly
There is a quarry in New Zealand that uses electric dump trucks. As the quarry is on a hill and the depot is at the bottom of the hill , the truck gets most of it's energy from regen braking i.e. it comes down loaded with potential energy from it's load of rock and returns up to the quarry empty ,on the recovered energy. They only have to spend a few dollars per day charging.
What you presented sounds, feels-good and efficient, nice! It's almost describing a perpetual motion machine aka Carnot Engine. In Laws of Nature a perpetual motion machine aka Carnot Engine cannot exist. While most heavy haul quarry trucks (and other large heavy quarry machines) are electromotive that is they can be 'electric', hybrid with re-gen electromotive brakes. Better put the polyphase drive motors are also generators by special construction and switching circuits (plus inverter DC to AC & vice-verso) so can be propulsion and electromagnetic resistance to rolling (braking), battery aided power and IC engine. Their drives are electric polyphase motors coupled to planetary gears similar to diesel-electric locomotives. They all use many materials, plus lubricants, coolants, etc. In conclusion if 100% battery powered, battery golf carts, cars, trucks, quarry trucks, lorries, trams, etc charging batteries is necessary 100% of time. Which requires Hydro, Oil, coal, Nuke, PV, Wind turbines, tidal turbines, animals / humans,... to rotate dynamos to generate electricity to charge batteries. And by extension through to Raw to Ready of everything humans cultivate, harvest, make, transport, etc and to recycle.
@janet cohen its not hauling the rocks back up the hill, think about that for a second… Let’s say there are 40 tons of rocks at 6,000 ft elevation and you need to bring them down 3,000 ft. The change in elevation is being traded for energy, the same way the weights in a grandfather clock power it. When the weights are pulled down by gravity, useful work can be performed…the conversion of potential energy into kinetic. All trucks have to covert the potential energy of heavy load at high altitudes in order to move them to a lower altitude, diesel trucks control the speed down the hill by turning this excess energy into heat by both braking and using the engine to compress air (thus heating it). The electric truck simply stores the energy gained from slowing the load down the hill rather than wasting it as heat. No perpetual motion here, just basic physics.
@@Heathfx5 Yes , anything further away from a local center of mass that is warping spacetime ,is charged with gravitational potential energy. Following Someone's Law: "What goes up,must come down". And Mr. Warning Sign: "Beware of falling rocks".
@@Heathfx5 I understand your example and concept. Thank you. Nevertheless, no machine is 100% efficient = Zero losses, and some % net energy gain. Neither are living creatures', humans / all mammals, etc 100% efficient = Zero losses. Perhaps some politicians, tyrants, bureaucrats, lawyers, judges, financiers, super wealthy, are maybe so self-absorbed they believe are 100% efficient, no wastes, no dandruff, no sweats, no bi-products from foods & beverages eaten & sipped.... and accordingly, 100% infallible, omnipotent, ... Back to physics, Even using your example of a grandfather clock weights to gears, movements, bearings, hands, air friction, thermal forces, .... chimes if activated, all have friction and mass, vector gradient forces from gravity on the clocks' many moving components too, thus the energy input via weights acted upon by Earth's gravity, so clocks are not 100% efficient = Zero losses. Big Ben, (is the name of the 14-ton bell) that also indirectly identifies a world-famous chime tones and clock in London, England. Albeit this clock is huge compared to a grandfather clock, the entire mechanism has many losses too. Apply all the mechanisms, mass, friction, in mine trucks, tyre deflection out of round, bearings, heating, planetary gears, viscous friction of lube oils, greases, coolants in electric motors, wind direction & velocity, ambient temperature, solar radiant heat gain, etc plus energy required to power the truck back up hill overcoming inertia of mass when stopped, moving at X velocity, at X slope, radii of roadway, roadway surface to tyre slippage to 6,000 ft elevation. So, in summary batteries cannot ever gain charge energy furnished by electromagnetic braking energy recovery to downhill laden with weight load to replenish what is expended by empty truck going uphill. Perhaps you now have a better understanding that perpetual motion machines aka Carnot Engines cannot exist in Laws of Nature because there are always inherent losses direct and indirect.
I just drove a Cummins powered 26 foot moving truck 1300 miles. Took me 2 days. I achieved 10.3mpg at 65-70 mph depending on the speed limit. Each tank of fuel had just over 600 mile range. An EV would require a 900KWh battery to achieve just 300 mile range under the same conditions. Leaving ZERO payload. EV's can't do that job.
As with any EV, there are always going to be applications that they just don't suit yet. High mile and high speed is pretty much exactly the one that EVs can't do yet. Drayage style duty and small point to point stuff is perfect for them though.
@@Map71Vette The EV will never be able to do real work. Lithium is the most active metal (for batteries) and only has so many ions to move. There is no "magic battery" coming. Electrochemical energy storage has finite limits.
@@cujet I don't entirely disagree, but I also design industrial trucks that move 100,000+ lbs using an EV drivetrain just fine. It comes down to your definition of "work". Long haul with maximum legal road loads is a use case I would agree EVs will have a very hard ever meeting. Pulling 120,000 lbs across a port from a container ship to a stack all day is one they are actually reasonably well suited for.
It's nice to see International trying to enter the EV space. With the limitations they could have just said. "its not feasible." But they did what they could for a specific use cases. School buses, fire trucks, City freight. Very nice.
I'd hate to have a EV as a fire truck. Even the smallest firetrucks have to be able to operate as a pump truck. I'm sure at some point that a electric water pump will be available to transfer water and provide enough pressure to fight a fire. Good platform as the school bus, package delivery and as a ambulance. The smell of diesel fuel and the exhaust fumes are common complaints patients.
I appreciate Andre doing these kinds of videos, but its clear how little most people know about how commercial trucks function. Regen braking would require no driver adjustment because it works the same as engine braking, you take your foot off the accelerator and the truck slows down. It even has three levels, just like engine brakes do, the only difference is you recharge the batteries instead of just slow down. It is that simple. If you paid attention at 12:13 he says the range is based on the truck being loaded at 28,000 pounds. Not empty like the Ford Lightning or the Hummer or the Tesla. Is that a huge range, no, but school buses, trash trucks, local deliver or city trucks would likely be fine. The reason no one has redesigned a commercial truck from the ground up to be EV is because there is no need waste the time doing it, when the chassis is designed to be openly configurable as it is. Everything on the EV is easily serviced just like the diesel, there is no reason to change that. By sticking with a standard truck chassis, you can easily bolt anything to it that bolts to the diesel truck meaning International's customers can use truck bodies and equipment they already have. And lastly if you ran it completely out of power you would call a tow truck, just like you would if the engine quit working. Big tow trucks also have air brakes and you would hook the tow truck's air system up to the EV truck the same way you would a diesel truck with a blown engine.
@@gregcavanaugh6259 so three or four dudes and a cooler, boy that really makes a difference. That is totally comparable to a truck loaded to within 4k pounds of it's maximum weight.
TFLT love the content. Although I really wish you guys would have asked a more practical question to International. Maybe you know the answer...how much energy (practically speaking in miles depleted) is used on a hot day when your sitting running the A/c waiting to be unloaded or stuck in traffic? That's a big question in my opinion. What about making a range extender option coming in the future? That is the future in my opinion. A small 4cyl running a power generator. To be able to run 500-700miles
I had a Tesla rental last week for work. Sat in a parking lot for 2 hours running the AC and radio waiting for a meeting. Range only dropped a couple miles. It’s surprisingly little energy loss.
i used to do door to door deliveries, intermodal last mile, mostly to businesses and all around town, less then 10 miles from the dock. 15,000 pound truck, i would be back in to reload at least once a day, so for my use case with deliveries also in pedestrian only zones, an EV would have been perfect. Range would have never been an issue, especially since i had opportunity to re-charge during the day. Probably would have never taken more than 30 minutes. no fuel, no noise, no maintenance, brakes would probably last for ever with re-gen.
This is the thing that so many people who bitch about EVs seem to "forget" - electric power trains have their place. They may not work everywhere with the current storage technology, but there are plenty of use cases where they do. The one you describe is a great example. That being the case, I ask why *wouldn't* you use and EV there? Quieter, cheaper, and yes - lower maintenance. It's a no brainer.
@@langdons2848 the cities are good for ev's for sure with plenty of infrastructure to support it. But in the country/rural/mountain areas, diesel is the way to go
Start cost is 2.5 times. How many companies can afford this? Also load on the current network would make this very hard in hot weather where people are running aircons and overloading the network... sure diesel is expensive but it's freely available. Hydrogen offers the best answer to the challenges on electrical networks not EVs
Last time I remember he never got his class A. It was too much time consuming. Kent on the other hand does have his class A. That's why he always drives anytime they are towing over 26,001 Lbs
Saw a lot of little things as your camera went around the truck that tell me this was a very early design model or even a prototype vehicle. Lots of connections and modules that are not very well protected as a full production vehicle would be. The battery conditioning box hanging off the side and pretty exposed did not look refined. The high voltage cables hanging below the chassis and not covered is not very refined. Looks like they got more work to do before selling this as a production vehicle. Either that or they should expect a lot of warranty returns!
@@rohinhans7819 yeah, you're correct, He's so smart maybe he should have been the engineer! If they covered everything the way he wanted it then he'd be complaining about that! I worked on heavy duty trucks for 42 years. Everything is a compromise! Computers and related wiring harnesses are surprisingly robust. It's never perfect. What is?
It's pretty niche to be honest and at $250k vs $70 for a stock cab/chassis the up front cost is a barrier. For a business owner you would also have to factor in having to install charging stations and be prepared to also maintain some Diesel rigs for jobs that run outside of the safe ranges of the EV. Otherwise you might have turn down work because "my trucks can't get there." or you have rent what you need which adds extra costs. In applications like tow trucks or boom lift trucks where you have a lot of high draw aftermarket equipment to power I don't see how practical a setup like this would be without reducing the allowed range or having maybe a diesel truck with a generator set on the back or a towed generator that can be brought in for support on longer jobs. School buses are probably your best bet for entering the market because their constant breaking, well known short routes, and time in between uses would allow for charging at the depot.
Agree, our city busses here in Montreal are estimated to be priced at a million a piece Canadian (around 800k usd) each. A great idea, but who will pay for all that!? Yes the electricity here is dirt cheap, so great for Leaf and Tesla owners. But I'm not sure about EV busses and trucks that cost a lot. I imagine that Asian companies will start producing these vehicles and offering them at a bargain..
Totally agree, with a PTO setup it wouldnt make much sense. That would drain the battery very quickly. I drive a 2020 MV with a service bed with fluid tanks. My truck also has PTO to power air compressor and other pumps. It basically has to idle my whole shift. For that I dont see it working. But for local delivery might work. One thing I didnt hear them talk about the weight of the EV model. My truck is 29k pounds, I cant imagine adding all those heavy batteries.
@@JPTech933 You should check out the normal busses costs for us Canadians lol... They are as cheap as 500K but not the 40 ft units most want, those go for upwards to 750K esp once you account for hybrid systems etc (tho currency and inflation may have changed this). I do agree with the pricing for EVs however, even Tesla hasn't been able to keep a steady number for their own production lineup. Till we see a steady price for them I can't say everyone will be driving one as not everyone can afford their prices. Tho I should also mention I still laugh at anyone who thinks they'll also get the MPG rating displayed on any vehicles windshield. Also since all transit systems are publicly ran here you can easily find out how much their fleet procurement is on their yearly spending reports that some agency shadily hide from view as much as possible...
Does the maintenance cost include replacing the batteries? Many of us have recently read about the Ford focus that has a $14,000 replacement cost (realistically much more since you can't actually purchase them any more). I imagine these batteries are significantly higher in cost. Also, electricity prices are cheap.... for now. Just wait until they "necessarily sky-rocket" so we can make the switch to the unreliable wind and solar forms of electricity. If people truly want EVs to replace combustion engines, they must support Nuclear energy. Keep in mind, actually replacing all combustion engine vehicles is several decades away, probably at least a century.
I wonder if reality is ever going to step in front of the push to switch to EVs. The US consumes 13 million barrels of oil per day for transportation fuel. Back of the envelope calculation shows that's the equivalent of 700 nuclear power plants output. The last two nuclear reactor projects in the US (Georgia and South Carolina) bankrupted Westinghouse in 2017. 50% of nuclear reactors ever ordered in the US were cancelled due to cost overruns. It takes 10-15 years to build one plant. So maybe, if the US dedicated huge investment in nuclear we could build 2 plants every 10 years or something like that. If every solar panel installed in the US is dedicated to vehicle charging it will take decades to replace the power provided by fossil fuels for transportation, and there will be solar panels everywhere.
87fordmustang, You make some great points, except, California, Washington, and New York want ALL diesel engines gone out of those states by 2035, that's only 13 years from now. If I lived in any of those states I would move now. ( I am thankful I don't live I any of those states) those folks will wind up starving, or worse.
24:18 “A little bit more expensive” It’s way more expensive with a very limited range and you have to replace the EV batteries. Not EV battery, but batteries.
@@dontrustwhiteyevery1 Yeah I’m very much aware. Giving my opinion from a truck driver’s pov. Your typical light EV only has a single battery unit. This commercial truck has multiple EV batteries and I’m sure they don’t come cheap. I currently drive a PTO truck and I run my PTO several hours each day. There’s no way possible an EV could be a viable alternative to traditional PTO truck, it cannot perform the same tasks in the same time frame. If you’re constantly running your vacuum pump and adding weight to your truck; your range will suffer dramatically. Not to mention all the additional add ons such as work lights, air accessories, pressure washers etc. I’d like to see how it compares to a diesel or even gas truck un deer real conditions.
No engine oil maintenance No transmission maintenance No fuel filters No turbos, no EGR, no Injectors No engine air filters, no MAF, no O2 No aftertreatment It's not like the batteries will die in a matter of months. A lot of companies the degradation of batteries on EV's are 5-15% over 5-7 years. So what you lose in a battery you save on maintenance and fuel costs.
The point that I was wanting to here talked about was the expected life of the battery, details that I have seen is the battery life,, shortens by use and the number of charges,, but begins to loose range noticeably at around 4/5 years, and is normally up for replacement in 7 years. The cost of which far, far exceeds the cost of diesel used for similar mileage, and maintenance of that engine in that period. And nothing was said about destruction of the old battery.
Science isn't standing still. 2022 is the year of the most ever weekly announcements of new tech. 10x cheaper batteries (LiIon, most expensive ones). And safer. There are BEV cars that have exceeded 1M miles. I have 50k miles, 4 years, and still >90% capacity.
EV is more a toy car for the rich like a huge I phone. It is dangerous because it can burn itself and burn the surrounding cars and houses. Be very careful if you park your car next to EV
@@ellau5850 how many times have EVs burnt vs gas stations and gas vehicles? Sadly gas fires are common. We just don't read about it cause it's boringly common. I've seen in person people burning to a crisp inside an ICE car.
Another great video. Thank you. Here’s the most important question, with that dump bed, what is the payload? Batteries are heavy. If all your payload is eaten by batteries than this is another fail for EV
@@jpe1 lot of manufacturers put out load range ratings that have proven to be completely false. On this channel they have shown that. We’ll see how this plays out in real applications. I think local EV is great ferrr the record (but if the diesel version can carry more payload with less down time and less annual maintenance costs it’s not going to last. A battery that doesn’t lose range each charging cycle would be a start. Then a battery that doesn’t go up like a magnesium firework when it’s pierced will seal the deal)
It's a special use vehicle.... It is not intended to replace the diesel lineup. For instance, I watched a repair shop video where they put a 4th engine in an airport tug truck because it sits and idles all day, and never hits public roads so the DPF cannot regenerate properly. This would be a perfect use for an electric truck, not to replace a long distance hauler.
A 100-mile range with the Lightning towing is a "flash in the pan". After the battery box wears out, who will have the $15-20,000 for a replacement? Recharging at home or on the road will cost you. Charging stations on the road won't have restrooms or window washing facilities but will steer you into a Wal-Mart. Eventually, EV owners will have to ante up money at registration time to cover the lost fuel taxes. How long will it take to replace the estimated 250 million vehicles on US roads? Can this be done by 2030? Don't think so. Windmills in Texas stop turning when it gets hot. Solar panels on the east coast are subject to hurricanes, tornados, rain, inclement weather, snow, night, and cloudy skies. It's all a big pipedream.
Ohio is already charging EV owners around $200 to register. I agree it is a pipe dream. EVs and green energy are probably net consumers of fossil fuels--just another drain on resources. The amount of energy used to propel the transportation fleet in the US is staggering. It will take centuries to replace it with any other energy source. It makes sense to pursue the R&D and work out all the problems with batteries, etc... before going to mass consumer scale. It's just a foolish plan.
I work for peterbilt motors (just a factory floor worker) but i would love to see you get in contact with them to try out our electric truck. That being said, i think this push for fully EVs is ridiculous and don’t understand why there isn’t more of a push for hybrids to gather that great regenerative breaking and the benefits like better brake life while also using the motor to assist the engine in accelerating to improve fuel milage greatly while having the better range and quick fuel up needed in the truck industry.
I agree with you. With a push towards hybrids instead of EV, the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions would happen faster, as more people would afford the difference in price, and the same amount of batteries will replace more ICE vehicles, thus less emitters
@@KyleSaucedo electric motors dominate in trailer pulling. The most efficient range on an electric motor is just above 0. That is where the most power is as well. Now, if you are pulling while red lining, then you need an ICE. There is a reason no one is talking about electric bulldozers, even though mines have been using hybrids for decades.
As of right now it depends on your application. If you tend to stay local and not drive very long distances than the ev will benefit you greatly vs a diesel. If you go cross country or do very long trips on a daily basis then an EV may not be quite as beneficial due to the more limited range and longer more consistent charging times, so a diesel might be the better option in that case. The battery and charging tech isn't quite the best yet to completely replace gas/diesel for long distance travelers, but with how far it has come in such a short time it'll be a small matter of time before it improves to the point where it can.
I'm skeptical when it comes to the financial viability on this, it just doesn't add up unless I'm missing something. The diesel truck should get ~8mpg, at $5.50/gal that comes out to $0.68/mile. On the EMV you stated that a level 2 charger would cost ~$50 for a full charge with a range of 135 miles, that comes out to $0.37/mile, clearly better but with the huge caveat that it will take overnight charging to refill the batteries so it is a once a day usage. With level 3 charging the time gets reduced to the stated 90 minutes in the video (still a long time compared to the 3 minutes to refuel with a high-flow diesel pump) but at an average of $0.50/kwh charge for use of the charger this comes out to $0.77/mile, higher than the diesel cost of operation. Now factor in the 3x sticker price and there is little to no business case that can be made for one of these trucks outside of a green metric for the company purchasing the vehicle...
@@geoffrust6787 International states that their trucks need oil changes every 25k miles with an average cost of ~$300, so add a penny a mile, that is still 8 cents cheaper a mile versus level 3 charging. Add another penny for DEF and even another 2-3 for other random stuff (not really necessary under 100k miles) and it is still cheaper. The maintenance boogieman in modern engines doesn't appear until much later in life, the same will be the case for the electric versions...
@@geoffrust6787 Batteries need to be replaced every 10 to 20 years in non commercial vehicles. This thing is 4 times as heavy..... and will be driven as a job, not a leisure.... those batteries are not cheap
@@ford1chevy2dodge3 Even assuming the battery pack goes for 10 years, will International still support the platform when they wear out? Unless batteries get much much cheaper, it's going to be a huge cost to replace them. So anything saved on maintenance costs over time is going to add up to one big fat expense when the battery is due up for a change. You are already 2.5x the initial buy in cost to start with lol... how much maintenance will that buy you over X amount of years in service... probably a LOT. There are certainly some nice benefits of EV.. but cost wise (among other things) they aren't realistically better at this point in time.
@@silentbravo EV's arent ready yet. They are the future for sure. No argument there. They just don't make sense for everyone right now. Takes too long to charge. Range when towing is hot garbage. They're more expensive. Oh and if everyone dropped everything to have an EV, the power grid couldn't handle it
I want to drive it, just one time. Then I'm almost certain I'll be tired of it and want back in a diesel. Electric is fun, but the fun fades quickly to me. Internal combustion is just the only way for me
The battery will outlast the truck, then go on to live in an energy storage system for a few more years, and then is completely recycled to recover the materials to make new batteries.
@@davidmccarthy6061 I've heard that myth about the battery outlasting the vehicle. Still haven't seen that happen yet. Batteries are not 100% recyclable unless you've personally figure out how to recycle the most environmentally damaging and toxic parts of it. We'll run out of Lithium before we run out of oil. Gigantic holes from strip mining are cool.
@@andrewdiamond2697 You're asinine assumption and parroted rhetoric are noted. "Seen in a Meme." Sure kiddo. You keep regurgitating that trained line. You must hear that "bell" 24/7.
As an OTR Trucker, I would think that longevity would be the major concern (cost per year to operate) for most trucking companies for electric trucks. At the company where I work, we keep trucks until they have somewhere between 850k - 1 million miles for OTR and then local until they hit 10 years old. These are general miles depending upon how much repair dollars are used to keep a specific truck rolling. I'm not sure how the cost of fuel would factor in, regardless, until the range of a fully loaded truck exceeds 650 miles, electric trucks would only be practical for local P&D.
I agree that it would work for local delivery vehicles, school busses and possibly gas/water utility trucks. Any job where it can sit overnight to recharge. I wonder why hybrid is not tried. Diesel electric locomotives have been in-use for 70 years. It would add weight and space concerns but allow the diesel to charge the batteries for longer routes.
Interesting video and a good comparison. And, the commentary is surprisingly sophisticated and facts based. I'm not an EV hater but perhaps a bit of a healthy skeptic. I do believe there is a market for EVs, both personal vehicles and medium duty trucks. Lots of others get into the cost per mile, service life, and other details, so here are a couple of anecdotal things I noticed while watching. First, notice that the EV is a longer wheelbase than the diesel unit. That's not coincidence--you need the longer wheelbase to house all the batteries. If a customer needs the shorter wheelbase truck, they're stuck with a diesel unit. International's website confirms this (shortest wheelbase offered is 217" in the EV versus 128" in the Cummins). And second, my god do the EV's components look pieced together from kit parts by an aftermarket shop. Looks how the batteries hang below the chassis on an angle iron cage. Look how the traction motor is bolted to angle iron beneath the chassis. Look how the battery cooling is bolted onto the outside of the frame rail, with delicate cooling fan components exposed to the exterior and where they'll get hit every time the truck is loaded from the side. Not to mention salt exposure over time. Same story under the hood--it looks like a cobbled together collection of parts. This truck truly looks like a prototype--not a finished product. International rushed this to market using parts bin EV components.
So you're saving around 60% in fuel cost (if charged at "home", because EV charging station will be more expensive) but you have to pay 2.5x more for the truck itself. How many miles are you gonna get from the battery packs before they need to be replaced? Diesel engine can do 1,000,000-1,500,000 miles before some major repairs are needed if serviced properly. It's definitely great for a highly congested places with stop and go traffic like NYC. Would love to know a long term cost comparison but for now it's all theoretical.
No matter your objections, Diesels have a time limit. After 2030 most countries will have outlawed new purchases of internal combustion engines. EVs are getting better every year. In five years they may be at parity with ICE vehicles, both in range and affordability.
Diesel will be around for a long time. Because they arent making electric cranes, ships or anything else that mines the lithium for the batteries. Also you really think battery tech is going to advance in 8 years to be able to charge a semi truck in the same time it takes to fuel up a big rig? Also forcing people to by EVs is bad because its falsely propping up the EV market.
@@fgxw8 my only objection towards EVs is its exorbitant price and lack of cheap used vehicle. Even when buying used the idea of potential battery replacement and associated cost is scary. Motor replacement for a used ICE vehicle is so much cheaper.
That diesel service truck is exactly what I need. But I want an older one. After treatment systems just add cost and complexity. I’m a diesel mechanic, so I need to be able to fix my rig easily, quickly, and wherever I might be at that time, so I can fix everyone else’s trucks. Simplicity is extra important with these supply chain issues. Less parts and sensors means less downtime. An electric truck is absolutely useless to me.
interesting comment, what is your typical range for a call? and how much time per call? i would have expected a diesel mechanic spending most of the time working rather than driving?
@@uliwehner it’s not necessarily just range, I often leave my truck running to power battery chargers, or run electric tools, air compressor, lights, etc. most of my calls are not roadside, since I specialize in doing bigger jobs, (and it helps keep my costs down) I’m typically going out to a trucking companies lot to do repairs, which is pretty often just a fenced in empty lot. I’m also fairly regularly pulling a 12 plus hour day. Adding to the problem, I don’t have a shop, and I don’t have the means to charge my service rig. Power goes out often in my corner of rural Washington, especially in the winter. Sometimes I only have five or six hours between my work days, which isn’t enough time to recharge one of those trucks anyway. There’s a long list of reasons, some are practical some are personal, but the best system for me is diesel power.
@@Matt-vz5wy not arguing with you, just curious. most of my truck use is a 99F250 superduty 7.3 towing a 28 foot trailer to nascar races, just about all of them out of range for an EV. this truck will probably keep doing this job for the next 20 years without complaining.
@@uliwehner it might be, but I’m currently using an 02 f350 with the 7.3 also. My air compressor runs off the drive belt on the engine, and I’m using power inverters to charge and power my electric tools. Not ideal, but it works. APU isn’t a bad idea, but I don’t have room for one at the moment. Part of why the truck in this video would work well for me. I’m ready for an upgrade, even though I love my 7.3.
Hey TFL, I own a transportation company in Denver and also live in Boulder. We had the opportunity to drive the Nikola BEV and specialize in class 8 final mile frozen deliveries. I’d love to chat about business and finance of these Heavy EV’s. Regarding the fuel cost, last week we had about $7,200 of diesel. In a week. Yikes!
Jesus, that's nuts. TFL did say they're going to show the international class 8 EV concept soon. Shoot international an email, they might be able to sort you out.
Wait until they add in road taxes into your electric. Will feel pretty dumb having paid 3x the cost for the truck only to have them raise our electric rates.
@@FishFind3000 About 200A for every 3 trucks if you're medium speed charging at night and you only do one 12 hour shift per truck per day. Grid has a lot of excess capacity at night. Time of day rates will keep people charging at night, and give the power companies more money when they are traditionally less profitable.
$7200 is 1440 gal at $5 per gal. At 6MPG that's 8,640 miles. At 2kwh per mile (factoring in losses), that's 17,280 Kwh. At $.14 US average cost per Kwh that's a new weekly cost of $2420
Funny, every day, we hear about climate, heat waves, and cold spells, yet no one talks about what happens to battery performance under adverse weather conditions! I would love to know what happens to the range when the temperature drops to -40deg? What happens to the range with usage? I believe we are living in a time that practicality and real-life conditions are being ignored to push an agenda. Good luck running a business when your productivity drops because you can't perform and maintain productivity. Just yesterday, they were telling us that Wind and solar were the future. How is that working?
@john Johnson, agreed. And what does a hot climate do to battery performance? I suspect there is a negative impact on over temp, as there is under temp. Things people neglect to discuss!
with lithium batteries there is very little performance decrease unlike old lead acid batteries a quick google search to confirm My house gets 80% of its power from solar very very pleased I never have a power outage
100 miles - 1.5 hours recharge, or 500 miles - 10 minutes recharge. I don't know what to pick... so hard... if you ever worked on a truck on the road, you know there's no such thing as typical.. you can never predict anything. You might not always be next to a power outlet. Also 250k and 70k... this is a crazy difference
Yeah the price difference is MASSIVE. $180,000 savings means you can buy a fuckton of diesel. However I can see if a company is LEASING these trucks, they get to write-off the cost of the electric trucks AND save on the fuel side. That's where I think the bean counters will figure out if these trucks make sense in their fleet or not. RE: BATTERY TECH: Give battery engineers another 5-10 years and it's quite possible they'll have designed new battery tech that is more energy dense, faster charging and lower pricing. I know there is an Aluminum-Ion graphene battery technology out there being researched right now. They're showing about 3x the energy density of Li-Ion batteries which is cool BUT the big deal is they are showing the Al-ion batteries can charge 20-30x faster than their Li-ion counterparts and remain very cool while do it (AL and Graphene are very good at dissipating heat). Not only that but aluminum and carbon are abundant and relatively cheap. This kind of tech could catapult EV's to charge ahead in all kinds of markets.
$180k would pay for enough diesel to go 229k miles at $5.50/gal and 7MPG. At 100 miles per work day with the EV, it would almost 9 years to do that many miles.
This is really neat to see. My first thought when I saw the idea of an EV big rig was “all the cargo being slammed in the back by the torque” but that’s neat that they made it feel like a normal diesel truck. Another advantage I see here is the lack of gears - in the ice, those auto transmissions shift really hard and it’s easy to lose traction due to the shifts. With no gears and hard shifts, that makes it potentially easier to deal with
These are all excellent discussions. My background is in forklifts where electric-powered fork trucks have been around for decades. The real focus here needs to be the application. Like forklifts, sometimes an IC-powered unit is better, sometimes not. The focus of these trucks needs to be interurban deliveries, short distances, and lots of stop-and-start driving. That application is the hardest on IC trucks when fuel consumption, brakes, and transmission wear are considered. The bottom line is the application needs to dictate the equipment. When done correctly, the EV will outperform the diesel. Another thing to consider: the cost of the EV includes a HUGE part of the fuel cost upfront...in the battery. If this vehicle is financed, the battery ("fuel") cost is spread over the term of the financing. If the cost of the diesel fuel used during the same period, less the cost of charging as was noted, it would be interesting to see where the numbers would end up. No one ever breaks that out but would be good to see it. That would make the comparison more on an equal level.
Cheaper to fill/charge - until the demand will drive up the electricity cost and also the much needed taxes for roads are slapped. Cheaper to maintain - until the battery packs need replacement. Not to mention the double/triple initial price tag. And so on. As much as I like and support this new technology I think that all the downsides should be identified, analyzed and weighed against the pros, before creating a hype around a certain product and pushing entire nations to adopt it. People stopped using their critical thinking(on purpose maybe). It's sad. Nothing against TFL, you guys are putting some good information out there.
On the battery replacement; a: very few vehicles need a replacement in their life. A lot fewer batteries need replacement vs ICE engines needing replacement (normalized for vehicles on the road). B: said ICE engine replacement is about as expensive as a battery replacement
@@thomgt4 A single battery replacement for a small passenger car is between $14 and $16 thousand dollars; This thing has five of them! You need to take some math lessons, at a quarter of a million dollars up front people will expect much more than 7-8 years of service from this truck before putting it out to pasture! People who invest in these trucks will probably be forced to go bankrupt when their investment hasn't been recouped upon the failure of the vehicle!
@@jorgemanso521 You could replace two or three ICE for the price of one battery, this truck has 5 of them and considering that a modern diesel engine will often last for 250,000- 300,000 miles before it needs to be refreshed, not replaced you guys have no argument here!
I dont think its tuned down so cargo wont fly off the back. 19 seconds is still slow. 10 seconds would still be slow but way better. Its tuned down to get every bit of range into it.
Higher power wouldn't hurt range. Whatever they say about programming, the motor is just selected for power comparable to the diesel, because a larger motor (and the larger inverter needed to go with it) is both unnecessary and more expensive.
You can buy a heck of a lot of fuel for x2-x3 the costs of the entire truck. People are being conditioned into thinking high gas prices are going to be around forever, and the only way out is EV. I’m sure the cost of those batteries when they go bad would be almost the same cost as buying another truck. Especially with the added cost to recycle the old ones.
Like everything they are trying to do with us these days they create a crisis out of everything. (Notice how everything is a "Crisis", scaring you into doing something under the guise of helping you. Remember Rahm Emmanuel obamas chief of staff said never let a good crisis go to waste") Then pushing a narrative the rich people want that allegedly "helps" you but gives the rich more money and more control. Gas price crisis, climate crisis. OMG gas prices are so high and the world will collapse cause man ia destroying the earth. See ignorant masses you need an electric vehicle to beat the price of gas and save the world. (I'm from the govt I'm here to help you.) Then when they have enough people on board the price of electricity will skyrocket. (So you won't save a darn thing but they suckered you in under a "Crisis") Thier excuse will be well the grid cant handle all this electric use we need to massively upgrade the system. The govt wants to build 500k chargers, there's 300 million vehicles in the US. Half the people live in apartments where they wont have chargers the numbers don't add up. Only the wealthier people will be able to drive around. They want want you to buy a super expensive electric car. The avg car payment now is $700. Your cutting alot of people out of the car market. So they'll have to live in a city and ride public transportation. Stacked on top of each other like cord wood. Which is what the worldd ecconimic forrum wants. This country was founded on freedom these cars limit your freedom. You cant travel as freely as you once did in ice cars. For the people that say rapid chargers will give same time of fill up as gas. Those chargers degrade your batteries at a rapid rate and batteries aren't cheap. I drive a plug in hybrid its been a good car but the battery is half the life it used to be. $10K to replace it. People that don't think for themselves or bother investigating things fall for this non-sense. Think for yourselves Sheeple. Expand your mind quit listening to the narrative don't be so short sighted.
I'm curious how much they'll eventually charge for recycling the batteries, and what will actually happen to those dead batteries. Probably "long term storage" in a remote country for later recycling.
@@louisschummer931 So what? They eventually get scrapped too. Plus that is additional cost to disassemble the battery from the vehicle, which is then essentially worthless, and additional cost to ship somewhere for marginal use, then eventually recycled. On top of all that, we're still going to be using petroleum for pavement, for plastics, etc... like for wind turbine blades, then I guess pumping all the evil gas and diesel down the solar powered wells? At least this will go on for a while until the dummies pushing this unworkable scheme are driven into the sea by angry mobs who finally figure out that it's all a scam.
They could be the future, but they have a long way to go. As it stands now the range while towing will make it tough if you're hauling more than locally.
I still think a true hybrid would be a better solution and a small battery for surge and accessory loads. Smaller engine running at a optimal rpm constantly would save a ton of fuel vs an engine coupled to a transmission.
For longer routes, yeah. But as the international representative said, these e-trucks are optimal for city use or short routes. If you need more range, you go for the diesel.
@@carl8790 problem is in 5 years what's going to happen with the battery? When they're done for the truck will be mechanically totaled because new packs will exceed the value of the vehicle.
@@bad05ford both you and I will not know what the cost of a replacement battery pack will be in the next five years. You also don't need to replace the entire battery pack. As more EVs enters the road, opportunities for repair shops will come by. That's if battery manufacturers deliberately make their battery pack impossible to repair, which is what the buyers of these vehicles should be beware of. So, we'll see how it goes in the next 5 years.
@@carl8790 drm has made its way into multiple bms systems. Now if they don't implement it they should be serviceable by shop's such as electrified garage.
Fun to see! Every time they show an aspect of the truck, I imagine areas of improvements in aero, drivetrain, pack density, and size. These will only get better and more efficient over time. I like that even with electric, it looks highly serviceable. With LFP packs, these may have a very long lifetime too if you keep the frame and suspension maintained, we'll just have to see.
@@kirkslayden834 I've been using LFP batteries in my race car for 8 years now, hundreds of duty cycles, and racing is about the most abusive thing for batteries, and the batteries have about 95% of their original capacity. So no, the lifespan isn't "too short."
In theory, it's 125 or 135 or so miles of range. But that's at a full charge. Like any EV, you'll want to avoid full charged and full discharged, because it'll wear out the batter. So, realistically, your mile of range will more in the territory of 80 miles, and that's under ideal conditions. In snow, on a hot day, going up and down hills, with a full load, even 80 miles will be optimistic.
A plug in hybrid makes significantly more sense. Dana/Spicer sells axles that have an electric motor driving directly into the axle. Electric for all the accessories to allow the engine to put the power to the ground, regen braking, tq fill to ease acceleration and climbing grades, to save fuel in low speed or stop and go, then a diesel engine optimized for steady state long distances so the vehicle won't have dismal range. All electric is foolish unless it's a specific local route or small range delivery vehicle that has long down time for charging.
For now I whole heartedly agree,, someday hopefully soon this experiment will not be a waste. Quiet literally the batteries still suck in terms of storage.
I think it’s a great idea but I am curious how long the battery will last(years) and the cost to replace. One of the things I like about ICE vehicles is the fact that you could buy one that is 7-10 years old and save a lot on depreciation. I am curious how this will go in the used market.
I have an 8 year old PHEV. I still have about 3/4 of new range. As expensive as cars are new and with battery prices dropping I'm considering replacing the battery before getting a new car. The next item to go bad in the car would be the transmission. My car "payments" go into a brokerage account and stays invested until the family needs the money. I've been making these "car payments" for a decade or so.
great point. friend told me he had seen that an electric car had a 2x footprint vompared to gas by the end of their respective lives. don't know if thats true or not. see vids on child labor digging raw materials that go into batteries. is that a cost that is factored in? lets peel the entire onion. both vehicles make sense as do many things we should be considering. Short term goals, mid term goals and long term goals. where i live on the n.c. coast we have 2 ways in.(3rd is a ferry system) # of weekly visitos is estimated at 300k-500k per week. yes those are the numbers quoted. what happens when we have a huricane and the beaches are evacuated? how do you charge all those vehicles? traffic jams ect. going west the interstate is 3÷ hrs away. just a thought.
Thank you for the honest review Andre. Definitely sold me on the diesel when you consider cost, how damaging to the environment those batteries are, how far you can travel and the time to refill versus charging. Excellent job sir.
Something I haven't seen in this conversation is hours of service issues. This alone, for me, makes EVs 150mi range maximum vehicles. Otherwise, you're shut down for your 10hr break while it charges, and you sure aren't running 11/14 on a single charge, meaning less miles and either less pay, or higher cpm pay to make it up, leading to a significant increase in cost to ship. I'm all for EVs, but barring a sea change in power density and battery weight, it really is looking more and more like local trucks are the biggest beneficiaries of the new tech.
AND how many houres you have to wait on the fuel-station? You think there is ONLY 1 electric truck that wants to charge???????? electric cars are useless if you can not drive it for 600 miles in 1 day........
@@davidp2707 the problem with swappable packs is swapping stations, the added weight if your not using stations, and those batteries are just too expensive.
Would this be possible for a firetruck or EMS application, and how effective would it be for sustained stationary pto work, as well as travel distances. Would it be more cost effective than a diesel counterpart. Is it also 110 trickle charge compatible.
Could definitely see this for a fire truck. They idle 99% of the time so for high use fire departments it could save a lot in fuel costs. Would just need a diesel back up generator at the station in case of power outages to keep em charged.
SO much more efficiency to be had in these vehicles. 135 miles from a 210kwhr pack is extremely poor even for this vehicle weight. Lots of optimizations needed in aero here.
The heavier you are and the more you have accel decel the less aero matters. Trucks like this are not the same as long haul trucks its a different load demand so aero is a part of it but not as much as you might think
@@ramblingman8992 nothing. the autobox is there to compensate for the narrow rpm range of a truck and keeping it at peak torque for maximum effiency. now an electric block? imagine a semi doing 15000 rpm. same thing, but the pistons arent visiting mars cuz there's none (it's an hyperbole). EV's with gearboxes are non reversible polarity types and that boils down to 1 gear forward and 1 gear reverse. ie beetle trans evs run in 3rd or 4th and the other gears arent needed. you dont need trans losses if there is 1500 newtons available at 0 rpm till 5200... you just chug along. that's how the regera works, by the way. the electric motor eliminates the trans.
It will be interesting to see how they cope with winter, and salty environments. Sounds like the motor drive units need better balancing as well, you could hear quite a terrrible vibration in the video as you climbed in speed... Neat video overall
Our pickup and delivery truck that is used around metro Atlanta runs 8 hours a day and covers over 200 miles. This electric truck wouldn't make a half of a day before it was dead on the side of the road. There has to be a massive increase in range before it's ready for primetime.
I think they are significantly overcharging on the ev. The battery pack would cost around $25-30k, there is no need for a $170k price hike. Clearly gouging and abusing rebates.
Agreed the 210KWh battery should be around $30k. SO like you said the sticker price of that EV truck is extremely high. Considering you aren't paying for the engine, transmission and other things associated with them. Yes you have an electric motor, batteries, and associated items... BUT that should NOT double or triple the price of the truck.
I have a hard time believing that, even with maintenance costs and fuel costs, that the cost of the EV version would even out before the dreaded battery replacement. The EV is less maintenance, but not maintenance free. The only thing different is that there is no Cummins engine, so the only costs of the maintenance that is offset is related to the engine system. Plus, if the EV parts are unique to the EV version, like driveline components and stuff, it could be more expensive and more difficult to get parts for it. Even though it is cheaper to charge than a diesel is to fill up, it is still a potentially substantial cost when you look at the cost per mile. In the end, I don't think the concessions needed to make an EV work as a service truck like this make sense. However, this design seems like they just used most of the legacy designs of a diesel truck and adapted it for an electric powertrain. I think the only way that an EV in the service truck industry would ever work is if it was a redesign from the ground up to mitigate the downsides of having all electric. Like lighter weight everywhere possible, less rotating mass, like that driveline, instead maybe mounting the motor where the differential is. Also, improving the aerodynamics, rolling resistance, suspension etc. could go a long way to getting more range.
I drove OTR forever. The company I drove for about 7 years ago gave me a new Robo truck. Had things like anti-collision breaking. That truck used to average 8.7 MPG when running 70 -- 80,000 lb. But deadheading you could actually squeeze 11 to 12 MPG. And bobtailing it did better than my Dodge pickup coming in at just over 18 MPG. They should be concentrating on hybrid. It works for locomotives, with that and regen breaking wouldn't need as many batteries and would always run as long as you had diesel. That would make it feasible for OTR.
@Peter smith most trucks are disc now. But air brakes are a DOT mandate. That way in the event of a failure of any kind, including air Supply the brakes still work. That is till they lockup. But no doubt the air takes a few horsepower to operate. 1 hp = 750 Watts. Even if it made sense I wouldn't look for the government to change anything in a timely fashion. It took over 20 years to get the 55 mph speed limit back up. Rapidly losing air pressure in a big rig brings its own set of scary circumstances. I blew a brand new right front tire just outside Birmingham Middle Lane of a five Lane Highway. I was going 64 mph. As the rubber blew apart it tore the airline off with it. So not only did I have to deal with the flat, the wheel was locked up as well. I used the Johnny brake the slow the truck down while crossing too the shoulder and then the off-ramp. (fortunately there was one there) The truck still wasn't stopped by the time all the brakes locked. At least that happened at slower speed. Fortunately it didn't jackknife or roll the truck. Had I instinctively just jab the brakes the front end would had dipped and things would have been even fuglier.
Sure the battery replacement is going to be a big cost. But that is after like 15 years of hard work. BEVs cam survive very high mileage during their short life. This will just be a cost that has to be factored in. It is no where close to as expensive as maintaining a diesel drive train and brake system over the same amount of time. Your bad assumptions does not understand the massive difference in cost Over Time.
I definitely think EVs have their place in our world (buses, delivery vehicles, etc), but replacing internal combustion engines for every application is probably not going to happen (at least as quickly as some of our politicians think it will).
@@bradmagnuson6963 In schoolbuses and stuff yes, my comment wasnt a strike against EVs, it was more a strike against Internationals implementation. They should make the battery larger and fix their in-frame layout to better utilize the space of a vehicle that large.
They really should remove "ning" from the F-150 Lightning. The more appropriate name is F-150 Light. Bud Light/Miller Lite/Coors Light and F-150 Light. It isn't the full bodied truck like the original. Looks Great!!..Less Towing!!
@@derekk6906 the fact that it's a monocoque has very little to do with the decreased towing, rather the fact that it's chassis is rated for the same total weight but the truck weighs more than the regular f150 is to blame for the lower tow rating, that and the fact that batteries just aren't there.
Exactly this truck has a 100 mile range but that is without a load and they do not answer or address the mileage with a load. If that is decreased similar to other EV trucks then it is worthless.
@@davidmccarthy6061 Near zero maintenance is inaccurate, 50% according to the company rep in the video. All of the running gear (bearings & steering) is the same and the battery cooling system is equivalent to an IC cooling system. No one can give accurate info on the lifespan of their battery packs and no one in these videos is willing to tell us what a battery replacement costs. For comparison Tesla considers the lifespan of an EV to be 200k miles and the battery pack should last that long ($12,000 to replace). That cummins will run 1million miles before you need to replace it. If the battery pack costs the same as a Tesla ( which i doubt) that would be another $60,000 for the EV truck over the 1 million mile life span of the diesel. EVs have a long ways to go.
@@lumberjackdreamer6267 If they actually deliver that I will be impressed. Still if the range for a loaded truck is less than half with the EV I would never purchase for personal use. My time off work is to valuable to be sitting at a charger for hours on a vacation trip.
@@Dylan-jw8if You’re wrong. Charging an EV is usually a time saver. It’s like charging your phone. No need to plan a detour to go to a gas station. I save a lot of time.
I can see electric trucks doing well in applications that are mostly short trips with lower overall utilization (like, only one shift per day). For long-haul trucking, range and time to recharge will be major obstacles in displacing diesels.
LOL, I don't agree. 2 round trips from LA to Irvine and I got to recharge for 90 minutes. 1 round trip from LA to Riverside and again I need to recharge. And in LA multiply this by 100,000 or more truck and LA gets more brown outs? Diesel Electric (Hybrid) would be way better than full on EV.
Wow, I’ve never heard of a vehicle that has a depleted battery that can charge to 100% in 90 mins off 125kWh charge rate with a 210kWh battery pack. How on earth do you come out with a truck like this with a max charge rate of 125kWh? Talk about dropping the ball. Me thinks customers won’t be happy when they see real world numbers. Dude just straight up told a lie like it was nothing.
If you get 125kWh charger, and you fill 210kWh tank, 210/125 = 1.68 hrs, or 101 minutes. You don't need to use the whole tank for all applications. Be careful about accusing someone of something like lying as you're not an expert. New charging tech available today is 250kWh and 300 kWh, and going from 360V to 800V, which means 500kWh is probably not hard. Tesla has planned to power their trucks on Megawatt chargers (1MWh) which would be about 20-30 mins. Don't forget either, that starting and stopping costs way more than 6MPG, but BEV reclaim power wasted by diesels.
@@HansSchulze lipos don't charge full power the entire time... When they are close to full the amps will drop off quickly. However there is usually a certain percentage that is "unusable" to keep from damaging the pack... It is possible that a 125 could charge a mostly discharged pack in about that time but only a nutsack would run the pack down past 20%. Lipos don't like to be left fully charged and don't like to be discharged below 40%. You will greatly reduce the cycles and strength of the pack (internal resistance) by treating the battery like a gas tank.
@@breckfreeride agreed. Those numbers depend on the exact chemistry, which may or may not apply (100% 0% for LiFePo) or go even slower. I did derate 100/5 to 20-30 mins. Filling to 100% depends on usage too. 85% is pretty decent “full" on LiPo. Also matters if more cells are in parallel or not vs my 70kWh experience which has a motor wound for speed for a specific battery current config.
You guys should change your parts licensing policies. They suck. I can get cheap parts for my Cummins BT6 just fine, making it practical. Try buying parts for my Navistar International DT466 and shit gets expensive fast. Makes it impractical. Keep the EV's. I'm gonna roll coal on one today, just for Navistar
Best thing about the MV is the power train international is notorious for having electrical issues especially in the class 8 LT commercial trucks. 135 mile range in the EMV is gonna be used strictly for in town use. I'm a diesel guy at heart but once they get the prices way lower and and the range well over 500 miles I'll stick with my diesel engines since they cost 3x less overall
There is a very important part that I didn't hear addressed, although I could have missed it, is the estimated battery life expectancy and cost of replacement batteries. Was it mentioned, or was it left out on purpose ?
Gullible people think the battery will last for hundreds of thousands of miles like the diesel. Anyone with any common sense knows damn well the battery will degrade noticeably in five years and junk in ten
@@derekflanary6811 This isn't a phone battery. EV batteries in cars are already running 100's of thousand of miles with minimal degradation. With good battery management and conditioning, like appears to be happening with this design, there is no reason the batteries should not be fully useable in 300k.
What happens when the battery cooling system fails? It's 110 degrees where I live right now. Diesel or electric, still has environmental cost. And it still has a cost to charge it. Did they say 33000lbs on that electric truck? So, you'll need two or three of those to do the job of a current 18 wheeler?
This unit is not meant to replace Class 8 units. This is a class 6 truck. Also, GVWR is based on chassis only. most class 8 trucks have a GVW of 52,000 but legally haul 80,000 because its then coupled to a GCWR with a trailer. This class 6 truck could easily pull a trailer as well depending on application and would move that GCW more like 60,000. However its still not a tandem axle truck, that is where the difference in GVW weight comes into play.
Another option would also be the that the companies with contracts can put chargers at unloading locations and charge while unloading. Just put a meter on the charger and pay the delivery place for the electricity used.
Ive used electric powered heavy equipment at work for 20 years. When it's on fast charge you can literally feel the current flowing through. If something goes bad cable gets so hot it'll burn your hand if you hold it.
Why do we always try to run before we learn to walk. These big electric trucks just don't make sense now with the current battery tech and huge cost of batteries, but what would make sense is a small efficient diesel generator that would charge the batteries and supple power to the electric power train as needed. A true hybrid system like they use in large commercial boats and trains. This would be cheaper to manufacture and very cost effective to operator for now, until battery tech and cost get better. Just my honest opinion
I completely agree with this, I wish there was incentive for this tech. BMW made a small vehicle that worked on this principle. Batteries could be smaller and cheaper, and the combustion engine would be ran at a very steady state so could last a long time.
I agree a diesel electric makes sense but what about the added space and weight, reducing the payload? It would also be a special case, short runs to empty the EV battery, run on diesel for longer routes, like the Chevy Volt.
This would make an excellent truck for construction supply companies. When I was a crane operator I often was traveling 100km than idling at 1100rpm for a couple hours to run the hydraulics and frequently regenerating the exhaust as a result...and wasting fuel. Good vidjéo fellas🤙
I wonder what the avg miles you'd get from both the cummins and battery packs before having to replace them. Then factor in the cost of replacement (granted you'd assume the cost to replace the batteries would be lower in 10+ years) and I'd have to wonder whether the EV would be more economical, especially with that 2-2.5x cost up front.
Why would you assume that batteries will be cheaper in the future. China owns almost all of the lithium and cobalt mines throughout the world. Even if a new battery technology is invented, it will not be cheap. There will be some tremendous tech improvements coming. Why pay 3 times the price now. Wait until volume brings the price down.
It really is nice seeing an apples to apples comparison between two of the same chassis. I've done the same in my own research with Peterbilt and Kenworth class 8 trucks comparing the electric versions of the same chassis. One of the costs that they don't mention that I'm very curious about is the price to change out batteries in the electric. They claim that the "overall maintenance costs" of the electric are down but if you consider changing batteries that cost hikes way up. Take a look into the world of Tesla's battery changes with them often costing $22,000 and the buyback rate for one of those to the dealership is $500 if the battery is dead. I am concerned that they simply not telling this they make electric to look a lot more inviting than they really are. Also expected life out of one of those battery packs and not to mention half the range for twice the price The only advantage or reason to buy one of these is because you want to buy an electric. Edit: sorry almost a quarter of the range
Daimler's BEV long haul freight truck battery packs are a huge 550kwh. In this application BEV tech does not make sense to me. I figure the pack will deplete at 150k-200k miles. Every 2 years a new battery pack? What I'm waiting for is a plug-in hybrid PHEV long haul with 110kwh packs matched to diesel, gasoline or combustible hydrogen ICEngines. The PHEV pack is more of a "light duty" application so I figure they'll last closer to 200k miles before replacement. Translation: Five PHEV 110kwh truck packs will deliver ONE million miles of goods transport while BEV packs deliver only 150k-200k. Almost a no brainer application preference for PHEV over BEV. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
@@artlewellan2294 El Dorado is making buses with the cummins 6.7 and an electric motor inline so they are true hybrids. i dont know much about them. They are building a bunch of them for San Francisco. We custom made one for carb/epa testing and certification at my shop about 5 years ago.
You are confused because the smart part of you knows the whole EV dream is stupid. Yet you are expected to "be nice" and find a way to fit this lie in with that. This is the purpose of nonsense, to confuse you and diminish you into accepting and acting your approval of something you know to be a lie.
@@orthopraxis235 Dude, go rent a Chevy Volt for a couple weeks before you say it is all nonsense. The systems work, if you don't drive too far. That being said, there is still a lot of engineering needed to make it work for work trucks. I borrowed my coworkers Volt, it was impressive. Battery replacement costs are deal killers though.
Hydrogen hybrid w/battery would in my mind be the best way to go UNTIL batteries become capable of lasting a whole 10 hour day of driving in all conditions on a single charge. If they don't then it will be not feasible for the trucking industry to use strictly battery power.
The short wheelbase EV would be perfect as a repo truck. Sneak into place and grab the repo and be gone before the borrower knows. Will reduce the number of confrontations with the borrower.
That's actually smart of them to dial down the motor as to not throw freight around or shock your securement. It's still an impractical vehicle for many applications. Your job sites aren't going to have charging stations. Also that cooling system is going to be an issue. Never fails that a rock, or piece of metal, anything will puncture, smash, or break a box. 135 miles is not far enough for many applications either. You guys ought to go see the Iowa 80 truck Museum. They have old EV trucks that back in the day still had range issues. Nothing about this EV fad is new.
1.65 trillion barrels of oil, and that has fallen, and the world uses 34 billion barrels of oil per year. No oil has been found, and the last spike coincided with learning how to get oil from shale. That is 47 years, and that was 2 years ago. There are other uses of oil. The oil fad needs to be over. As for that one box, you are stating that your radiator never failed, and your transmission never failed. Radiators puncture, but that was never a reason not to buy a diesel truck. Money gives heat too, but you'd be considered a fool for suggesting burning it.
EV trucks are excellent for short haul last mile delivery stuff. Garbage trucks, short runs around cities making deliveries. There are better then diesel. Switch to the anything much above a 100 miles a day totally switches and the diesel is much better. It's all about the right tool for the job.
@@david19897 there is a reason why EVs were dropped on all applications. This whole push for EVs is not the answer. The technology isn't there. Diesel is still king and will be for a long time as long as expensive fuel takes money away from research.
Why cant they just have the front wheels power a generator to charge itself while driving? If you're on the open road you aren't going to be breaking and charging your battery. I don't know why they haven't implemented that.
@@punisher3607 if they were to do that, they'd be wasting more battery by fighting against the generator. That's a waste of energy, and also basic physics.
@@punisher3607 This truck has a tiny roof though. Now 18-wheelers... For sure. There are some passenger cars with solar panels on them, too few IMO, but for large trucks that is a far more useful idea. However, the #1 thing to optimize is aerodynamics, followed by weight, followed by efficiency of everything that's in the car (drivetrain, heating, cooling, any other electronics).
Just thinking alot of times when im working truck is running because im working at a job site not moving temps are -20 or 90 plus need heat or AC. How long would it take to drain battery pack?
Great video, the 210kwh battery option would cost $24 to charge at .12cents per kw, assuming 90% efficiently and 10% juice left in battery. Pretty dramatic difference vs diesel cost. That being said, does not work for all applications. Why is it 130k more than diesel, yea it’s got $50k worth of batteries, but it also does not have a 20k Diesel engine and 16k transmission.
A comparison of replacement of drivetrain would be interesting. What are total replacement costs and the estimated time before replacement. So for the electric it would include the motor and batteries, the diesel would be engine and fuel related components. If the batteries could be recycled then that would apply, same for the diesel.
Considering 5kw lifepo4 costs around 1500$, then 210 kw battery would cost 63000 $ plus electric engine vs diesel engine and transmission. Fuel and maintenance costs should be higher on ICE.
@@fduran6993 You are considering retail price for a small battery. The manufacturer will get bulk factory prices. In 2021 those prices were considered around 130$/kWh. Let's count 200$/kWh for the factory pricing, your battery would cost around 40K$. It's even better. As you said, ICE maintenance and fuel cost would be more than double the price of this battery. Btw the drivetrain wears way less on an EV. The engine has pretty much 1 moving part, aand is rated for at least a million miles without any maintenance. There is no clutch, no gearbox (just a reductor), and if you use 2 motors, you don't even need a diff.
I’m glad Ev’s are being developed but the problem still stands if you have a ev you still need a gas or diesel vehicle while it doesn’t work the other way
Wow! 19 seconds 0-60. That's a true slug pace. I can't wait for Tesla semi at 5 seconds 0-60 empty. 20 seconds 0-60 fully loaded. Tesla semi is bargain at 150k with 300 mile range with full load 180k for 500 mile range with max 80k load. Delivery should start sometime before end of the year.
The technology is feasible for certain applications. The price is going to be a big hurdle to overcome, especially when you add in the cost of charging infrastructure for them. It's easy to see why Cummins will be rolling out hydrogen engines. Even with advances in battery technology the electric heavy truck is going to have limited applications.
@@hyperjanny1510 I think it had a 40 gallon, was a 24 foot rental Ford, actually put off large pickups unless one of those were there. 4-6 mpg on the similar sized gas kind of sealed it outside short in town trips.
Both are beautiful. They will be popular and useful for all types of things. The firetruck will be awesome to see. A backup diesel generator will probably be needed for on site recharge and powering the hydraulic systems, pumps and tools. Eelectric and juiced up they can get up to speed a bit faster, perfect performance for first responders where seconds matter and budgeting fuel cost to save money for communities, organizations, agencies. Well done and keep on keeping on.
You could fuel an entire fleet of trucks for years with the additional money you would spend on one of these electrical units. They need to drastically drop in price to make them affordable. Also just looking at the way the batteries and the battery controller are laid out it looks very shabby with a lot of exposed wires and connections. This is an experimental unit at best.
Quit being a naysayer! Change is going to come with your like it or not! Batteries will get better and prices will come down. Are you still using the dial phone and a victrola?
Comparing both vehicles side by side the ICE version is infinitely better. It is 1/3 the price, no charging, reliable, far better range, etc. I own a business and there is no way I would ever purchase one of these as they are a complete waste of money. Maybe in 10 years when the technology has some time to catch up to ICE trucks but right now and for the next several years diesel trucks will rule the road. I am just calling this vehicle out for what it is, an over complicated, over priced, under performing piece of garbage.
@@lightningstrikestwice6302 the government didn’t have to mandate the change from horses to cars. People made the choice as the tech just made sense for most people. So why does the government have to mandate the change to EVs? Not to mention the full switch from horses to the ICE took 50+ years..I’m not saying EVs aren’t the “future”, but the tech is a loooong way from being reasonable for most people
Isn't it a little bit overkill to to have a service truck that big? Dually, heavy frame, 6.7l engine... All it does is hauling wrenches and hammers. In Europe we use vans like Ford Transit or VW Transporter for such purposes...
There are plenty of smaller trucks. Something this big will be hauling something very heavy in the bed regularly that would be impractical in a smaller truck and potentially pulling something behind it besides. Usually utility companies and such use this type of thing. Not that common though for the reasons you say.
Q: Isn't it a little bit overkill to to have a service truck that big? A: well depends on what you're "servicing". the support trucks the railroads and the public utilities use tend to be Medium Duty rigs like this. also the boys working on "Yellow Iron" (Cat, Deere, Volvo, JCB) in the farm and construction sectors need to run these same rigs.
Great review and comparison. EV trucks have a special place depending on the type of work, mostly short-distance deliveries (the school bus example is perfect), but the diesel engine still beats it, so long as it's a truck. Keep the reviews coming! Greetings from Nairobi, Kenya.
Also, where temperatures can get VERY hot in Kenya, that could spell doom for the batteries that power EVs. Extreme hot AND cold temperatures kill the EVs batteries, and as the INDIVIDUAL batteries are VERY expensive to replace, imagine having to purchase 3-4-5 batteries--only to risk killing them again from exposure to extreme heat?! VERY, VERY impractical application. Besides, diesel fuel runs under any temperature and condition. It's really the best all-around fuel in the world.
@null null Apparently you've never heard of FUEL ADDITIVES?? You know, preventing gelling, fuel line freezing, or increasing cetane levels ring a bell?? Or mixing 20% BIODIESEL with 80% petroleum diesel enabling engines to run for VERY long cycles without incident. Larger point being, diesel fuel is VERY FLEXIBLE, and GIVES YOU OPTIONS, whereas there is ZERO flexibility when it comes to frigid OR extremely hot conditions and car batteries. Glad to have helped enlighten you, Fredo ;)
@null null Yep, you're a dope. Hence my reference to GELLING, or CETANE LEVELS. Here's a newsflash, Fredo: diesel that has higher cetane levels doesn't have to work as hard to warm up and can make starting in cold weather much easier. Ask yourself why Canadian truckers OVERWHELMINGLY RELY ON DIESEL FUEL IN WINTER MONTHS?? Duhhhh, could it be because they use the aforementioned FUEL ADDITIVES to keep diesel working in often frigid conditions. Again, glad to further enlighten you, Fredo (that is assuming you know where Canada is located).
I drove a oxygen delivery truck in for 10 years, Chevy box truck with about 10,000 lbs. my route was in one suburb 5 days a week, less than 50 miles a day 8-12 hours. I could see an EV doing great on this specific route. I ran a 454 with automatic, the engine never broke down, but numerous starters, alternators, and the a/c was constantly getting fixed, I got 6 mpg.
You had a gas burner. Should have used a diesel
This is specifically the sort of use-case that EV can do well at. A known, reliable, regular route
lol the range is absolutely pathetic on this thing, if u loaded this up with anything the range would be cut down to like 60-70 miles or more lmao, electric vehicles=toys just like electric mowers=toys
You could buy 3 diesel trucks for the price of 1 EV truck, so you have to factor that into any equations you do regarding the practicality of the vehicle.
@@billybobbob3003 that range is at max load. They do not and have no reason to rate them unladed these aren’t cars
It makes a lot of sense to use the ev where it shines and the diesel where it shines. People get stuck in their ideologies but really, things like school bus routes and local delivery are great use cases and use the diesels where the ev's make less sense.
Exactly you took the words out of my mouth I’m tired of the extremes this would be perfect for so many applications, but not every application and that’s ok.
Yes and the same is true of any EV. Not all use cases make sense. For me and my pre-COVID use case having an EV made perfect sense because I was saving around $200/month in energy costs plus an additional savings in maintenance. However I was only driving about 100 miles/day on my commute. I also had a charger installed in my garage so I could charge overnight and get the lower rates at my house vs a L3 charging station. I have only had to use a Supercharger a handful of times and that was mostly just to see how they worked. I can't tow my boat with my EV and if I am taking a long trip with all of my stuff I tend to take my pickup truck even though it will cost me more in fuel and in maintenance. To me it is worth the extra costs to save the time and to be more comfy. It really is a matter of using the right tool for the job.
They just passed a several million dollar bond in my small town to replace the school buses. Would love to hear them propose a 3x the cost same bond so they can go "green".
No School today Kids, power outage last night and it wasn't restored in time to charge the buses.
@@JHuffPhoto Same, have a Chevy Bolt for commute and a 99 suburban for, well, everything else. Right tool for the job.
These are both "performance machines" but the performance of a truck like this isn't measured by 0-60 time but by the load it can haul and/or the trailer it can tow.
EV trucks will be when you see the diesel fuel pump. $20.00 a gallon plus $8.00 a gallon carbon tax. The closest diesel pump is 1200 plus miles away.
@@davidfromamerica1871 If that is the case then electricity pricing will sky rocket anywhere the electric vehicles are in use. Is all just moving goal posts to make electric seem like it's the natural now cost effective easier way to go which it is not and better than the alternative which it is also not. Electricity is not free or cheap and if it was then these pipe dreams of electric vehicles would actually be what they said lol. Most people that bought an electric vehicle are selling them because they are not what they seem and electricity to run them is very very expensive. Imagine running your cloths dryer every night all night long when you are sleeping now Imagen how many extra hundreds of dollars a month on electricity your bill WILL go up and up and up and it will never get cheaper. Hybrid electric motor to assist the primary ICE motor and ICE motor to keep the battery pack charged up is a better more realistic option. If a person can develop zero point energy then Electric would be the way to go.
@@leanlifter1 "Most people that bought an electric vehicle are selling them because they are not what they seem" .... Really? Where`d you get those statistics?
"Electricity is not free or cheap" "your bill WILL go up and up and up and it will never get cheaper." ...... And diesel/gas is cheap? Not sure if you`ve noticed the prices going up more & more over time, & everyone with EV`s are saying "fueling" costs are massively reduced with EV`s, as well as servicing & maintenance being almost non existent. Those savings are even more significant when using commercial vehicles like this.
"If a person can develop zero point energy then Electric would be the way to go"... Both solar & wind generators are fairly common, You could then be entirely self sufficient if you have the room.
My hubby is a Billy big rigger heavy hauler in a Kenworth , pushing over 600 hp and that thing does real work
@@leanlifter1 this can only literally happen with government interference, if you were to allow the free market, things wouldn't be getting dire for diesel like in your prediction.
I think going Diesel-Electric hybrid woiuld be much more practical than full electric. They can get full electric to work, but definitely cant be anything more than local freight
Hybrids have two independent systems with all the maintenance and possibilities for breakdown.
I’d choose one or the other but never both.
@@tedbaxter5234 I wonder if it could still be more reliable if the diesel is just used as a generator instead of driving the axle and being assisted by an electric motor. The diesel wouldn't be subjected to the varying loadings and rpm changes needed to drive the axles, and electric motors are very reliable. The combined breakdown rate of the two systems might be less than the breakdown rate of a diesel engine.
@@9ZweihandeR9 there are hybrid busses and they work very well
Europe has lots of Diesel-Hybrid for buses and works very well. Super quiet and comfortable.
Nothing green about it .. all the stuff to make it Paint wire and so on .Like Renewables No such thing it requires Energy to make and lots of it ,Plastic's for insulations From oil ... No, Phones,, The big Lie ...Australia ..
I could see the EV truck being great for short distance runs in town or even on site only usage.
The down side, all of the electronics, battery conditioner, wiring looms and connectors are going to be trouble in places like Western New York, Toronto and Montreal with the copious amounts of salt used in the winter. It gets onto (and INTO) everything.
Agreed! My car is 5 years old and my pipe to the muffler just disconnected because of rust. I looked under the car, I think even the spare tire under the trunk section, I would not be able to use because the rust has seized it as well!
Learn to drive without salt. Salt affects everything it touches. Education is key. I have driven on ice and snow, I just stay off if the weather is too bad.
@@richarda996 You can have days of wet slushy weather in the Toronto area during the winter. Not possible to not be working for days. Most electric cars have all of the electronics hidden away and I'm sure as these go forward they will do the same.
@@richarda996 Exactly!! That's what we do in northern and western Canada, sand only.
Toronto, Montreal and NE USA seems to be obsessed with using salt.
The truck in the Video had Charger cooling Fans hanging out on the side..bit prone to Salt/Snow and dust there.
Perfect for urban delivery, Public Works, Military bases for maintenance, transit, school busses (recharge between morning and afternoon trips). No one is saying these will replace IC engines yet but it doesn't hurt to use them where they make sense.
Yes, they are saying that. All the dipshits that make the rules/laws are saying it as we speak lol
great for city use
Except it costs 3X as much as the trucks typically used for those low mileage duties. Makes no sense. This is the answer to a question no one is asking.
@@Viccus476 Like everything else, the price will come down. Some simple folk have a real difficult time accepting change. Besides, they'lle save that in fuel costs over the life of the vehicle, and before drivle on about battery replacement, the savings in maintenance will easily pay for batteries. Relax bruh, you can keep your vroom vroom machine... for a little while.
FWIW, if you think IC engines in service rigs, sitting at idle for four out of eight hours per day is "low mileage" then you aren't considering things clearly
There is a quarry in New Zealand that uses electric dump trucks. As the quarry is on a hill and the depot is at the bottom of the hill , the truck gets most of it's energy from regen braking i.e. it comes down loaded with potential energy from it's load of rock and returns up to the quarry empty ,on the recovered energy.
They only have to spend a few dollars per day charging.
What you presented sounds, feels-good and efficient, nice! It's almost describing a perpetual motion machine aka Carnot Engine. In Laws of Nature a perpetual motion machine aka Carnot Engine cannot exist.
While most heavy haul quarry trucks (and other large heavy quarry machines) are electromotive that is they can be 'electric', hybrid with re-gen electromotive brakes. Better put the polyphase drive motors are also generators by special construction and switching circuits (plus inverter DC to AC & vice-verso) so can be propulsion and electromagnetic resistance to rolling (braking), battery aided power and IC engine. Their drives are electric polyphase motors coupled to planetary gears similar to diesel-electric locomotives. They all use many materials, plus lubricants, coolants, etc.
In conclusion if 100% battery powered, battery golf carts, cars, trucks, quarry trucks, lorries, trams, etc charging batteries is necessary 100% of time. Which requires Hydro, Oil, coal, Nuke, PV, Wind turbines, tidal turbines, animals / humans,... to rotate dynamos to generate electricity to charge batteries. And by extension through to Raw to Ready of everything humans cultivate, harvest, make, transport, etc and to recycle.
@janet cohen its not hauling the rocks back up the hill, think about that for a second…
Let’s say there are 40 tons of rocks at 6,000 ft elevation and you need to bring them down 3,000 ft. The change in elevation is being traded for energy, the same way the weights in a grandfather clock power it. When the weights are pulled down by gravity, useful work can be performed…the conversion of potential energy into kinetic.
All trucks have to covert the potential energy of heavy load at high altitudes in order to move them to a lower altitude, diesel trucks control the speed down the hill by turning this excess energy into heat by both braking and using the engine to compress air (thus heating it).
The electric truck simply stores the energy gained from slowing the load down the hill rather than wasting it as heat.
No perpetual motion here, just basic physics.
@@Heathfx5 Yes , anything further away from a local center of mass that is warping spacetime ,is charged with gravitational potential energy.
Following Someone's Law: "What goes up,must come down".
And Mr. Warning Sign: "Beware of falling rocks".
A ropeway would do the same for even cheaper
@@Heathfx5 I understand your example and concept. Thank you.
Nevertheless, no machine is 100% efficient = Zero losses, and some % net energy gain.
Neither are living creatures', humans / all mammals, etc 100% efficient = Zero losses.
Perhaps some politicians, tyrants, bureaucrats, lawyers, judges, financiers, super wealthy, are maybe so self-absorbed they believe are 100% efficient, no wastes, no dandruff, no sweats, no bi-products from foods & beverages eaten & sipped.... and accordingly, 100% infallible, omnipotent, ...
Back to physics, Even using your example of a grandfather clock weights to gears, movements, bearings, hands, air friction, thermal forces, .... chimes if activated, all have friction and mass, vector gradient forces from gravity on the clocks' many moving components too, thus the energy input via weights acted upon by Earth's gravity, so clocks are not 100% efficient = Zero losses.
Big Ben, (is the name of the 14-ton bell) that also indirectly identifies a world-famous chime tones and clock in London, England. Albeit this clock is huge compared to a grandfather clock, the entire mechanism has many losses too.
Apply all the mechanisms, mass, friction, in mine trucks, tyre deflection out of round, bearings, heating, planetary gears, viscous friction of lube oils, greases, coolants in electric motors, wind direction & velocity, ambient temperature, solar radiant heat gain, etc plus energy required to power the truck back up hill overcoming inertia of mass when stopped, moving at X velocity, at X slope, radii of roadway, roadway surface to tyre slippage to 6,000 ft elevation.
So, in summary batteries cannot ever gain charge energy furnished by electromagnetic braking energy recovery to downhill laden with weight load to replenish what is expended by empty truck going uphill.
Perhaps you now have a better understanding that perpetual motion machines aka Carnot Engines cannot exist in Laws of Nature because there are always inherent losses direct and indirect.
I just drove a Cummins powered 26 foot moving truck 1300 miles. Took me 2 days. I achieved 10.3mpg at 65-70 mph depending on the speed limit. Each tank of fuel had just over 600 mile range. An EV would require a 900KWh battery to achieve just 300 mile range under the same conditions. Leaving ZERO payload. EV's can't do that job.
As with any EV, there are always going to be applications that they just don't suit yet. High mile and high speed is pretty much exactly the one that EVs can't do yet. Drayage style duty and small point to point stuff is perfect for them though.
@@Map71Vette The EV will never be able to do real work. Lithium is the most active metal (for batteries) and only has so many ions to move. There is no "magic battery" coming. Electrochemical energy storage has finite limits.
@@cujet I don't entirely disagree, but I also design industrial trucks that move 100,000+ lbs using an EV drivetrain just fine. It comes down to your definition of "work". Long haul with maximum legal road loads is a use case I would agree EVs will have a very hard ever meeting. Pulling 120,000 lbs across a port from a container ship to a stack all day is one they are actually reasonably well suited for.
i agree, it's not about the diesel vs electric motor, it's about how flexible today the electric could be
So right on
It's nice to see International trying to enter the EV space. With the limitations they could have just said. "its not feasible." But they did what they could for a specific use cases. School buses, fire trucks, City freight. Very nice.
Build what you can until batteries and the infrastructure approve.
It's gonna be about hydrogen in the future.
I'd hate to have a EV as a fire truck. Even the smallest firetrucks have to be able to operate as a pump truck. I'm sure at some point that a electric water pump will be available to transfer water and provide enough pressure to fight a fire.
Good platform as the school bus, package delivery and as a ambulance. The smell of diesel fuel and the exhaust fumes are common complaints patients.
Well they kinda have to go electric cause their engines break down all day
@@RonaldPlett
The 6.7 Cummins is probably the most reliable small diesel available.
Much simpler to work on than the 6.7 Ford.
My employer used box cab/chassis with 24 foot vans for our warehouse to HQ trips. Our IH's averaged about 50 miles a day, perfect for this truck.
I appreciate Andre doing these kinds of videos, but its clear how little most people know about how commercial trucks function. Regen braking would require no driver adjustment because it works the same as engine braking, you take your foot off the accelerator and the truck slows down. It even has three levels, just like engine brakes do, the only difference is you recharge the batteries instead of just slow down. It is that simple.
If you paid attention at 12:13 he says the range is based on the truck being loaded at 28,000 pounds. Not empty like the Ford Lightning or the Hummer or the Tesla. Is that a huge range, no, but school buses, trash trucks, local deliver or city trucks would likely be fine.
The reason no one has redesigned a commercial truck from the ground up to be EV is because there is no need waste the time doing it, when the chassis is designed to be openly configurable as it is. Everything on the EV is easily serviced just like the diesel, there is no reason to change that. By sticking with a standard truck chassis, you can easily bolt anything to it that bolts to the diesel truck meaning International's customers can use truck bodies and equipment they already have.
And lastly if you ran it completely out of power you would call a tow truck, just like you would if the engine quit working. Big tow trucks also have air brakes and you would hook the tow truck's air system up to the EV truck the same way you would a diesel truck with a blown engine.
actually if you'd pay attention, the Lightning's range was based on something like 1000 lbs of payload, not empty.
@@gregcavanaugh6259 so three or four dudes and a cooler, boy that really makes a difference. That is totally comparable to a truck loaded to within 4k pounds of it's maximum weight.
Jake Regen
Electric batteris work great in the winter an dlots of water and ice!
I retired from state of PA transportation. They bought two electric trucks to run deliveries they are both gone now.🤣😅
TFLT love the content. Although I really wish you guys would have asked a more practical question to International. Maybe you know the answer...how much energy (practically speaking in miles depleted) is used on a hot day when your sitting running the A/c waiting to be unloaded or stuck in traffic? That's a big question in my opinion. What about making a range extender option coming in the future? That is the future in my opinion. A small 4cyl running a power generator. To be able to run 500-700miles
I had a Tesla rental last week for work. Sat in a parking lot for 2 hours running the AC and radio waiting for a meeting. Range only dropped a couple miles. It’s surprisingly little energy loss.
Wow
The EV is wonderful for around town and in the yard but for long hauls definitely diesel all day
i used to do door to door deliveries, intermodal last mile, mostly to businesses and all around town, less then 10 miles from the dock. 15,000 pound truck, i would be back in to reload at least once a day, so for my use case with deliveries also in pedestrian only zones, an EV would have been perfect. Range would have never been an issue, especially since i had opportunity to re-charge during the day. Probably would have never taken more than 30 minutes. no fuel, no noise, no maintenance, brakes would probably last for ever with re-gen.
EVERY vehicle requires maintenance. Nobody could afford an electric truck with a government subsidy.
This is the thing that so many people who bitch about EVs seem to "forget" - electric power trains have their place. They may not work everywhere with the current storage technology, but there are plenty of use cases where they do. The one you describe is a great example. That being the case, I ask why *wouldn't* you use and EV there? Quieter, cheaper, and yes - lower maintenance. It's a no brainer.
@@langdons2848 the cities are good for ev's for sure with plenty of infrastructure to support it. But in the country/rural/mountain areas, diesel is the way to go
@@OfficialBravo6JeepLife that is true.
Start cost is 2.5 times. How many companies can afford this? Also load on the current network would make this very hard in hot weather where people are running aircons and overloading the network... sure diesel is expensive but it's freely available. Hydrogen offers the best answer to the challenges on electrical networks not EVs
I’m so glad Andre got his trucking license so we can watch him review cool trucks like this. So much fun 😁 Nice work Andre!
Last time I remember he never got his class A. It was too much time consuming. Kent on the other hand does have his class A. That's why he always drives anytime they are towing over 26,001 Lbs
Lol, depends where you are. No special license to drive anything privately here
Because Kent is full of it he probably just has his CDL for show
The comment makes no sense for this these are under 26,000 lb GVW truck so you don't need a commercial license
@@The101Point1 the electric was rated at 33k
Saw a lot of little things as your camera went around the truck that tell me this was a very early design model or even a prototype vehicle. Lots of connections and modules that are not very well protected as a full production vehicle would be. The battery conditioning box hanging off the side and pretty exposed did not look refined. The high voltage cables hanging below the chassis and not covered is not very refined. Looks like they got more work to do before selling this as a production vehicle. Either that or they should expect a lot of warranty returns!
It’s is International they just make trucks to breakdown and buy their parts ….
Clearly you haven’t worked on many vehicles. Having exposed wiring and such is very common. Only notes that come to mind that don’t are German cars
@@rohinhans7819 yeah, you're correct, He's so smart maybe he should have been the engineer! If they covered everything the way he wanted it then he'd be complaining about that! I worked on heavy duty trucks for 42 years. Everything is a compromise! Computers and related wiring harnesses are surprisingly robust. It's never perfect. What is?
@@lightningstrikestwice6302 I am a currently in school for engineering and yes, seems almost everything is a compromise in terms of design
I noticed the cables
It's pretty niche to be honest and at $250k vs $70 for a stock cab/chassis the up front cost is a barrier.
For a business owner you would also have to factor in having to install charging stations and be prepared to also maintain some Diesel rigs for jobs that run outside of the safe ranges of the EV.
Otherwise you might have turn down work because "my trucks can't get there." or you have rent what you need which adds extra costs.
In applications like tow trucks or boom lift trucks where you have a lot of high draw aftermarket equipment to power I don't see how practical a setup like this would be without reducing the allowed range or having maybe a diesel truck with a generator set on the back or a towed generator that can be brought in for support on longer jobs.
School buses are probably your best bet for entering the market because their constant breaking, well known short routes, and time in between uses would allow for charging at the depot.
Agree, our city busses here in Montreal are estimated to be priced at a million a piece Canadian (around 800k usd) each. A great idea, but who will pay for all that!? Yes the electricity here is dirt cheap, so great for Leaf and Tesla owners. But I'm not sure about EV busses and trucks that cost a lot. I imagine that Asian companies will start producing these vehicles and offering them at a bargain..
Totally agree, with a PTO setup it wouldnt make much sense. That would drain the battery very quickly. I drive a 2020 MV with a service bed with fluid tanks. My truck also has PTO to power air compressor and other pumps. It basically has to idle my whole shift. For that I dont see it working. But for local delivery might work. One thing I didnt hear them talk about the weight of the EV model. My truck is 29k pounds, I cant imagine adding all those heavy batteries.
@@JPTech933 You should check out the normal busses costs for us Canadians lol... They are as cheap as 500K but not the 40 ft units most want, those go for upwards to 750K esp once you account for hybrid systems etc (tho currency and inflation may have changed this). I do agree with the pricing for EVs however, even Tesla hasn't been able to keep a steady number for their own production lineup. Till we see a steady price for them I can't say everyone will be driving one as not everyone can afford their prices.
Tho I should also mention I still laugh at anyone who thinks they'll also get the MPG rating displayed on any vehicles windshield. Also since all transit systems are publicly ran here you can easily find out how much their fleet procurement is on their yearly spending reports that some agency shadily hide from view as much as possible...
Overall it cost far less to produce an EV. But the initial price is high because of RD and tooling.
@@lumberjackdreamer6267 you think it costs less to produce an ev? I don't see that being the case at all
Does the maintenance cost include replacing the batteries? Many of us have recently read about the Ford focus that has a $14,000 replacement cost (realistically much more since you can't actually purchase them any more). I imagine these batteries are significantly higher in cost.
Also, electricity prices are cheap.... for now. Just wait until they "necessarily sky-rocket" so we can make the switch to the unreliable wind and solar forms of electricity. If people truly want EVs to replace combustion engines, they must support Nuclear energy. Keep in mind, actually replacing all combustion engine vehicles is several decades away, probably at least a century.
I've never heard of a Ford focus ev, I think you mean Cmax winch isn't even a full EV just a hybrid...
I wonder if reality is ever going to step in front of the push to switch to EVs. The US consumes 13 million barrels of oil per day for transportation fuel. Back of the envelope calculation shows that's the equivalent of 700 nuclear power plants output. The last two nuclear reactor projects in the US (Georgia and South Carolina) bankrupted Westinghouse in 2017. 50% of nuclear reactors ever ordered in the US were cancelled due to cost overruns. It takes 10-15 years to build one plant. So maybe, if the US dedicated huge investment in nuclear we could build 2 plants every 10 years or something like that. If every solar panel installed in the US is dedicated to vehicle charging it will take decades to replace the power provided by fossil fuels for transportation, and there will be solar panels everywhere.
@@KevinKimmich44024 Lol, most solar panels and lithium batteries are made in China.. Lol, Crazy.. Smart move America!
@@KevinKimmich44024 The government doesn't mind inconvenience. The taxpayers are gonna pay for it anyways... Not the businesses or the government.
87fordmustang,
You make some great points, except, California, Washington, and New York want ALL diesel engines gone out of those states by 2035, that's only 13 years from now. If I lived in any of those states I would move now. ( I am thankful I don't live I any of those states) those folks will wind up starving, or worse.
24:18 “A little bit more expensive” It’s way more expensive with a very limited range and you have to replace the EV batteries. Not EV battery, but batteries.
Most semi trucks have more than one battery anyway.
@@dontrustwhiteyevery1 Yeah I’m very much aware. Giving my opinion from a truck driver’s pov. Your typical light EV only has a single battery unit. This commercial truck has multiple EV batteries and I’m sure they don’t come cheap. I currently drive a PTO truck and I run my PTO several hours each day. There’s no way possible an EV could be a viable alternative to traditional PTO truck, it cannot perform the same tasks in the same time frame. If you’re constantly running your vacuum pump and adding weight to your truck; your range will suffer dramatically. Not to mention all the additional add ons such as work lights, air accessories, pressure washers etc. I’d like to see how it compares to a diesel or even gas truck un deer real conditions.
@@dontrustwhiteyevery1 yeah, but which truck batteries have you ever bought that cost you $20k - $30k to have replaced?
No engine oil maintenance
No transmission maintenance
No fuel filters
No turbos, no EGR, no Injectors
No engine air filters, no MAF, no O2
No aftertreatment
It's not like the batteries will die in a matter of months. A lot of companies the degradation of batteries on EV's are 5-15% over 5-7 years. So what you lose in a battery you save on maintenance and fuel costs.
@@leftcoaster67 no transmission maintenance? Funny how moving parts wearing out or breaking no longer applies. 🙄
I like the fuse panel in the top of the dash with the drain system. Simple but makes life easier on techs for sure.
The point that I was wanting to here talked about was the expected life of the battery, details that I have seen is the battery life,, shortens by use and the number of charges,, but begins to loose range noticeably at around 4/5 years, and is normally up for replacement in 7 years. The cost of which far, far exceeds the cost of diesel used for similar mileage, and maintenance of that engine in that period. And nothing was said about destruction of the old battery.
THIS!! ☝☝☝
Science isn't standing still. 2022 is the year of the most ever weekly announcements of new tech. 10x cheaper batteries (LiIon, most expensive ones). And safer. There are BEV cars that have exceeded 1M miles. I have 50k miles, 4 years, and still >90% capacity.
In china, most cars that use lfp batteries have a lifetime warranty. outside of China they supposedly give 5-7 years.
EV is more a toy car for the rich like a huge I phone. It is dangerous because it can burn itself and burn the surrounding cars and houses. Be very careful if you park your car next to EV
@@ellau5850 how many times have EVs burnt vs gas stations and gas vehicles? Sadly gas fires are common. We just don't read about it cause it's boringly common. I've seen in person people burning to a crisp inside an ICE car.
Another great video. Thank you. Here’s the most important question, with that dump bed, what is the payload? Batteries are heavy. If all your payload is eaten by batteries than this is another fail for EV
Also would like to know what happens to the range with an actual payload.
@@dsauce8780 That’s the most important question.
@@dsauce8780 the quoted range is for being loaded at 28,000 pounds
@@jpe1 lot of manufacturers put out load range ratings that have proven to be completely false. On this channel they have shown that. We’ll see how this plays out in real applications. I think local EV is great ferrr the record (but if the diesel version can carry more payload with less down time and less annual maintenance costs it’s not going to last. A battery that doesn’t lose range each charging cycle would be a start. Then a battery that doesn’t go up like a magnesium firework when it’s pierced will seal the deal)
It's a special use vehicle.... It is not intended to replace the diesel lineup.
For instance, I watched a repair shop video where they put a 4th engine in an airport tug truck because it sits and idles all day, and never hits public roads so the DPF cannot regenerate properly. This would be a perfect use for an electric truck, not to replace a long distance hauler.
A 100-mile range with the Lightning towing is a "flash in the pan". After the battery box wears out, who will have the $15-20,000 for a replacement? Recharging at home or on the road will cost you. Charging stations on the road won't have restrooms or window washing facilities but will steer you into a Wal-Mart. Eventually, EV owners will have to ante up money at registration time to cover the lost fuel taxes. How long will it take to replace the estimated 250 million vehicles on US roads? Can this be done by 2030? Don't think so. Windmills in Texas stop turning when it gets hot. Solar panels on the east coast are subject to hurricanes, tornados, rain, inclement weather, snow, night, and cloudy skies. It's all a big pipedream.
Ohio is already charging EV owners around $200 to register. I agree it is a pipe dream. EVs and green energy are probably net consumers of fossil fuels--just another drain on resources. The amount of energy used to propel the transportation fleet in the US is staggering. It will take centuries to replace it with any other energy source. It makes sense to pursue the R&D and work out all the problems with batteries, etc... before going to mass consumer scale. It's just a foolish plan.
Used car lots everywhere full of EV's with dead batteries.
I work for peterbilt motors (just a factory floor worker) but i would love to see you get in contact with them to try out our electric truck. That being said, i think this push for fully EVs is ridiculous and don’t understand why there isn’t more of a push for hybrids to gather that great regenerative breaking and the benefits like better brake life while also using the motor to assist the engine in accelerating to improve fuel milage greatly while having the better range and quick fuel up needed in the truck industry.
Hybrids will be phased out
I agree with you. With a push towards hybrids instead of EV, the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions would happen faster, as more people would afford the difference in price, and the same amount of batteries will replace more ICE vehicles, thus less emitters
@@victorradu9645 meanwhile, hybrids will be phased out soon
@@bradmagnuson6963 We heard you the first time!
Duh, parrot it again!
@@BB-1990 doesn't mean you're listening, duh, keep being an ass
I'm a lineman and we work in extreme weather a lot. I am curious to see how these electric trucks hold up in that kind of climate.
speaking from experience in Alaska with electric buses they don't work well at all in the winter.
And how they’ll pull a real trailer …
@@samtuck6400 I'm here in Colorado and it has drastic temperature changes. I had a feeling they wouldn't hold up well in that type of work.
Supposedly they don't work in real hot or real cold weather very well
@@KyleSaucedo electric motors dominate in trailer pulling. The most efficient range on an electric motor is just above 0. That is where the most power is as well. Now, if you are pulling while red lining, then you need an ICE. There is a reason no one is talking about electric bulldozers, even though mines have been using hybrids for decades.
As of right now it depends on your application. If you tend to stay local and not drive very long distances than the ev will benefit you greatly vs a diesel. If you go cross country or do very long trips on a daily basis then an EV may not be quite as beneficial due to the more limited range and longer more consistent charging times, so a diesel might be the better option in that case. The battery and charging tech isn't quite the best yet to completely replace gas/diesel for long distance travelers, but with how far it has come in such a short time it'll be a small matter of time before it improves to the point where it can.
I'm skeptical when it comes to the financial viability on this, it just doesn't add up unless I'm missing something. The diesel truck should get ~8mpg, at $5.50/gal that comes out to $0.68/mile. On the EMV you stated that a level 2 charger would cost ~$50 for a full charge with a range of 135 miles, that comes out to $0.37/mile, clearly better but with the huge caveat that it will take overnight charging to refill the batteries so it is a once a day usage. With level 3 charging the time gets reduced to the stated 90 minutes in the video (still a long time compared to the 3 minutes to refuel with a high-flow diesel pump) but at an average of $0.50/kwh charge for use of the charger this comes out to $0.77/mile, higher than the diesel cost of operation. Now factor in the 3x sticker price and there is little to no business case that can be made for one of these trucks outside of a green metric for the company purchasing the vehicle...
Your numbers do not include maintenance. The Ev has essentially zero where the Diesel has continuous.
@@geoffrust6787 International states that their trucks need oil changes every 25k miles with an average cost of ~$300, so add a penny a mile, that is still 8 cents cheaper a mile versus level 3 charging. Add another penny for DEF and even another 2-3 for other random stuff (not really necessary under 100k miles) and it is still cheaper. The maintenance boogieman in modern engines doesn't appear until much later in life, the same will be the case for the electric versions...
@@geoffrust6787 Batteries need to be replaced every 10 to 20 years in non commercial vehicles. This thing is 4 times as heavy..... and will be driven as a job, not a leisure.... those batteries are not cheap
@@ford1chevy2dodge3 Even assuming the battery pack goes for 10 years, will International still support the platform when they wear out? Unless batteries get much much cheaper, it's going to be a huge cost to replace them. So anything saved on maintenance costs over time is going to add up to one big fat expense when the battery is due up for a change.
You are already 2.5x the initial buy in cost to start with lol... how much maintenance will that buy you over X amount of years in service... probably a LOT.
There are certainly some nice benefits of EV.. but cost wise (among other things) they aren't realistically better at this point in time.
@@silentbravo EV's arent ready yet. They are the future for sure. No argument there. They just don't make sense for everyone right now. Takes too long to charge. Range when towing is hot garbage. They're more expensive. Oh and if everyone dropped everything to have an EV, the power grid couldn't handle it
I want to drive it, just one time. Then I'm almost certain I'll be tired of it and want back in a diesel.
Electric is fun, but the fun fades quickly to me. Internal combustion is just the only way for me
Diesels will always win......especially the old mechanical ones will outlast any ev garbage the best thing would be to make a diesel hybrid
There's plenty of market share and usage applications for both. Go figure INT. is offering both
Garbage trucks are a great application for EV trucks!
And when it's time for "Battery Replacement" the real cost both out of pocket and Environmentally, become apparent.
The battery will outlast the truck, then go on to live in an energy storage system for a few more years, and then is completely recycled to recover the materials to make new batteries.
@@davidmccarthy6061
I've heard that myth about the battery outlasting the vehicle. Still haven't seen that happen yet. Batteries are not 100% recyclable unless you've personally figure out how to recycle the most environmentally damaging and toxic parts of it. We'll run out of Lithium before we run out of oil. Gigantic holes from strip mining are cool.
@@seraphimsscythe1628 You've never seen a lithium mine except in a meme that shows photos of copper mines, obviously.
@@andrewdiamond2697
You're asinine assumption and parroted rhetoric are noted. "Seen in a Meme."
Sure kiddo. You keep regurgitating that trained line. You must hear that "bell" 24/7.
@@seraphimsscythe1628 You're right. They are closer to 90% recyclable.
"The MV is a little more expensive." LOL! 😆
As an OTR Trucker, I would think that longevity would be the major concern (cost per year to operate) for most trucking companies for electric trucks. At the company where I work, we keep trucks until they have somewhere between 850k - 1 million miles for OTR and then local until they hit 10 years old. These are general miles depending upon how much repair dollars are used to keep a specific truck rolling. I'm not sure how the cost of fuel would factor in, regardless, until the range of a fully loaded truck exceeds 650 miles, electric trucks would only be practical for local P&D.
I agree that it would work for local delivery vehicles, school busses and possibly gas/water utility trucks. Any job where it can sit overnight to recharge. I wonder why hybrid is not tried. Diesel electric locomotives have been in-use for 70 years. It would add weight and space concerns but allow the diesel to charge the batteries for longer routes.
@mike schmidt Isn't 90 minutes a long time when running a business. 90 minutes of not making money.
Look at Nikola.. the hydrogen fuel cell will be the long range future.
Check out Edison motors, its a startup thats building trucks using the locomotive style driveline
weight is the main reason, and in trucks the heavier the truck is the less weight you can carry as there are weight limits in place
@@cj09beira The smart man in the comments. Everybody focuses on performance, but no business cares about that, it's all about economics.
A key factor you conveniently left out, your range loaded will be reduced significantly than the figure you gave with no load.
He gave the range based on being loaded at 28,000 lbs if you were paying attention
Interesting video and a good comparison. And, the commentary is surprisingly sophisticated and facts based. I'm not an EV hater but perhaps a bit of a healthy skeptic. I do believe there is a market for EVs, both personal vehicles and medium duty trucks. Lots of others get into the cost per mile, service life, and other details, so here are a couple of anecdotal things I noticed while watching. First, notice that the EV is a longer wheelbase than the diesel unit. That's not coincidence--you need the longer wheelbase to house all the batteries. If a customer needs the shorter wheelbase truck, they're stuck with a diesel unit. International's website confirms this (shortest wheelbase offered is 217" in the EV versus 128" in the Cummins). And second, my god do the EV's components look pieced together from kit parts by an aftermarket shop. Looks how the batteries hang below the chassis on an angle iron cage. Look how the traction motor is bolted to angle iron beneath the chassis. Look how the battery cooling is bolted onto the outside of the frame rail, with delicate cooling fan components exposed to the exterior and where they'll get hit every time the truck is loaded from the side. Not to mention salt exposure over time. Same story under the hood--it looks like a cobbled together collection of parts. This truck truly looks like a prototype--not a finished product. International rushed this to market using parts bin EV components.
Well said
So right on... how many times has a loading operator or weather jacked up stuff, or just driver error...
I drive an all electric Peterbilt. I can say it's fun to drive and it's pulls extremely good.
So you're saving around 60% in fuel cost (if charged at "home", because EV charging station will be more expensive) but you have to pay 2.5x more for the truck itself. How many miles are you gonna get from the battery packs before they need to be replaced? Diesel engine can do 1,000,000-1,500,000 miles before some major repairs are needed if serviced properly. It's definitely great for a highly congested places with stop and go traffic like NYC. Would love to know a long term cost comparison but for now it's all theoretical.
Medium duty engines don't go that many miles before rebuild. Really, it's about half that.
Fleet. Manager of a medium duty fleet here
No matter your objections, Diesels have a time limit. After 2030 most countries will have outlawed new purchases of internal combustion engines. EVs are getting better every year. In five years they may be at parity with ICE vehicles, both in range and affordability.
Diesel will be around for a long time. Because they arent making electric cranes, ships or anything else that mines the lithium for the batteries. Also you really think battery tech is going to advance in 8 years to be able to charge a semi truck in the same time it takes to fuel up a big rig? Also forcing people to by EVs is bad because its falsely propping up the EV market.
@@fgxw8 my only objection towards EVs is its exorbitant price and lack of cheap used vehicle. Even when buying used the idea of potential battery replacement and associated cost is scary. Motor replacement for a used ICE vehicle is so much cheaper.
You'd save $337,000 in fuel over 750,000 miles. I still think the truck is overpriced.
That diesel service truck is exactly what I need. But I want an older one. After treatment systems just add cost and complexity. I’m a diesel mechanic, so I need to be able to fix my rig easily, quickly, and wherever I might be at that time, so I can fix everyone else’s trucks. Simplicity is extra important with these supply chain issues. Less parts and sensors means less downtime. An electric truck is absolutely useless to me.
interesting comment, what is your typical range for a call? and how much time per call? i would have expected a diesel mechanic spending most of the time working rather than driving?
@@uliwehner it’s not necessarily just range, I often leave my truck running to power battery chargers, or run electric tools, air compressor, lights, etc. most of my calls are not roadside, since I specialize in doing bigger jobs, (and it helps keep my costs down) I’m typically going out to a trucking companies lot to do repairs, which is pretty often just a fenced in empty lot. I’m also fairly regularly pulling a 12 plus hour day. Adding to the problem, I don’t have a shop, and I don’t have the means to charge my service rig. Power goes out often in my corner of rural Washington, especially in the winter. Sometimes I only have five or six hours between my work days, which isn’t enough time to recharge one of those trucks anyway. There’s a long list of reasons, some are practical some are personal, but the best system for me is diesel power.
@@Matt-vz5wy not arguing with you, just curious. most of my truck use is a 99F250 superduty 7.3 towing a 28 foot trailer to nascar races, just about all of them out of range for an EV. this truck will probably keep doing this job for the next 20 years without complaining.
@@Matt-vz5wy maybe an APU would be cheaper to run than idling the engine?
@@uliwehner it might be, but I’m currently using an 02 f350 with the 7.3 also. My air compressor runs off the drive belt on the engine, and I’m using power inverters to charge and power my electric tools. Not ideal, but it works. APU isn’t a bad idea, but I don’t have room for one at the moment. Part of why the truck in this video would work well for me. I’m ready for an upgrade, even though I love my 7.3.
Hey TFL, I own a transportation company in Denver and also live in Boulder. We had the opportunity to drive the Nikola BEV and specialize in class 8 final mile frozen deliveries. I’d love to chat about business and finance of these Heavy EV’s.
Regarding the fuel cost, last week we had about $7,200 of diesel. In a week. Yikes!
Now many AMP service do you need to charge just 1 truck and for how long? Now the power grids gonna have to be upgraded and we’re gonna pay for it.
Jesus, that's nuts. TFL did say they're going to show the international class 8 EV concept soon. Shoot international an email, they might be able to sort you out.
Wait until they add in road taxes into your electric. Will feel pretty dumb having paid 3x the cost for the truck only to have them raise our electric rates.
@@FishFind3000 About 200A for every 3 trucks if you're medium speed charging at night and you only do one 12 hour shift per truck per day. Grid has a lot of excess capacity at night. Time of day rates will keep people charging at night, and give the power companies more money when they are traditionally less profitable.
$7200 is 1440 gal at $5 per gal. At 6MPG that's 8,640 miles. At 2kwh per mile (factoring in losses), that's 17,280 Kwh. At $.14 US average cost per Kwh that's a new weekly cost of $2420
Funny, every day, we hear about climate, heat waves, and cold spells, yet no one talks about what happens to battery performance under adverse weather conditions! I would love to know what happens to the range when the temperature drops to -40deg? What happens to the range with usage?
I believe we are living in a time that practicality and real-life conditions are being ignored to push an agenda. Good luck running a business when your productivity drops because you can't perform and maintain productivity. Just yesterday, they were telling us that Wind and solar were the future. How is that working?
I agree 100%
Cold climates will significantly drop the battery performance.
@john Johnson, agreed. And what does a hot climate do to battery performance? I suspect there is a negative impact on over temp, as there is under temp. Things people neglect to discuss!
with lithium batteries there is very little performance decrease unlike old lead acid batteries a quick google search to confirm My house gets 80% of its power from solar very very pleased I never have a power outage
Stop and go traffic these are perfect. So much quieter and nicer for the driver
100 miles - 1.5 hours recharge, or 500 miles - 10 minutes recharge. I don't know what to pick... so hard... if you ever worked on a truck on the road, you know there's no such thing as typical.. you can never predict anything. You might not always be next to a power outlet. Also 250k and 70k... this is a crazy difference
Yeah the price difference is MASSIVE. $180,000 savings means you can buy a fuckton of diesel. However I can see if a company is LEASING these trucks, they get to write-off the cost of the electric trucks AND save on the fuel side. That's where I think the bean counters will figure out if these trucks make sense in their fleet or not.
RE: BATTERY TECH:
Give battery engineers another 5-10 years and it's quite possible they'll have designed new battery tech that is more energy dense, faster charging and lower pricing. I know there is an Aluminum-Ion graphene battery technology out there being researched right now. They're showing about 3x the energy density of Li-Ion batteries which is cool BUT the big deal is they are showing the Al-ion batteries can charge 20-30x faster than their Li-ion counterparts and remain very cool while do it (AL and Graphene are very good at dissipating heat). Not only that but aluminum and carbon are abundant and relatively cheap. This kind of tech could catapult EV's to charge ahead in all kinds of markets.
$180k would pay for enough diesel to go 229k miles at $5.50/gal and 7MPG. At 100 miles per work day with the EV, it would almost 9 years to do that many miles.
@@Deezle_Gaming bingo!!
@@Deezle_Gaming and then replace the battery packs for $250 000
And who will end up paying the price difference ???
This is really neat to see. My first thought when I saw the idea of an EV big rig was “all the cargo being slammed in the back by the torque” but that’s neat that they made it feel like a normal diesel truck. Another advantage I see here is the lack of gears - in the ice, those auto transmissions shift really hard and it’s easy to lose traction due to the shifts. With no gears and hard shifts, that makes it potentially easier to deal with
It will use far less electricity also!
I drive an international Lt. with an automatic transmission don’t it shifts smoothly and I don’t have any problems with loss of traction
Ut got 1700 foto pounds of torque, int her witner or rainign or road salt. It is tough!
very true, never thought of that. i once lost control of a moving truck because of that. nothing serious, but it could have been.
These are all excellent discussions. My background is in forklifts where electric-powered fork trucks have been around for decades. The real focus here needs to be the application. Like forklifts, sometimes an IC-powered unit is better, sometimes not. The focus of these trucks needs to be interurban deliveries, short distances, and lots of stop-and-start driving. That application is the hardest on IC trucks when fuel consumption, brakes, and transmission wear are considered. The bottom line is the application needs to dictate the equipment. When done correctly, the EV will outperform the diesel.
Another thing to consider: the cost of the EV includes a HUGE part of the fuel cost upfront...in the battery. If this vehicle is financed, the battery ("fuel") cost is spread over the term of the financing. If the cost of the diesel fuel used during the same period, less the cost of charging as was noted, it would be interesting to see where the numbers would end up. No one ever breaks that out but would be good to see it. That would make the comparison more on an equal level.
Cheaper to fill/charge - until the demand will drive up the electricity cost and also the much needed taxes for roads are slapped.
Cheaper to maintain - until the battery packs need replacement. Not to mention the double/triple initial price tag. And so on.
As much as I like and support this new technology I think that all the downsides should be identified, analyzed and weighed against the pros, before creating a hype around a certain product and pushing entire nations to adopt it.
People stopped using their critical thinking(on purpose maybe). It's sad.
Nothing against TFL, you guys are putting some good information out there.
On the battery replacement; a: very few vehicles need a replacement in their life. A lot fewer batteries need replacement vs ICE engines needing replacement (normalized for vehicles on the road). B: said ICE engine replacement is about as expensive as a battery replacement
The first comment I read and it said it all...
@@thomgt4 A single battery replacement for a small passenger car is between $14 and $16 thousand dollars; This thing has five of them!
You need to take some math lessons, at a quarter of a million dollars up front people will expect much more than 7-8 years of service from this truck before putting it out to pasture!
People who invest in these trucks will probably be forced to go bankrupt when their investment hasn't been recouped upon the failure of the vehicle!
@@jorgemanso521 You could replace two or three ICE for the price of one battery, this truck has 5 of them and considering that a modern diesel engine will often last for 250,000- 300,000 miles before it needs to be refreshed, not replaced you guys have no argument here!
@@glennhutchinson9049 I am not for electric trucks...
I dont think its tuned down so cargo wont fly off the back. 19 seconds is still slow. 10 seconds would still be slow but way better.
Its tuned down to get every bit of range into it.
I wonder if that and they don't want to pull to many amps from the batteries since it's got a Lifepo4 battery system.
Higher power wouldn't hurt range. Whatever they say about programming, the motor is just selected for power comparable to the diesel, because a larger motor (and the larger inverter needed to go with it) is both unnecessary and more expensive.
You can buy a heck of a lot of fuel for x2-x3 the costs of the entire truck. People are being conditioned into thinking high gas prices are going to be around forever, and the only way out is EV. I’m sure the cost of those batteries when they go bad would be almost the same cost as buying another truck. Especially with the added cost to recycle the old ones.
Like everything they are trying to do with us these days they create a crisis out of everything. (Notice how everything is a "Crisis", scaring you into doing something under the guise of helping you. Remember Rahm Emmanuel obamas chief of staff said never let a good crisis go to waste") Then pushing a narrative the rich people want that allegedly "helps" you but gives the rich more money and more control. Gas price crisis, climate crisis. OMG gas prices are so high and the world will collapse cause man ia destroying the earth. See ignorant masses you need an electric vehicle to beat the price of gas and save the world. (I'm from the govt I'm here to help you.) Then when they have enough people on board the price of electricity will skyrocket. (So you won't save a darn thing but they suckered you in under a "Crisis") Thier excuse will be well the grid cant handle all this electric use we need to massively upgrade the system.
The govt wants to build 500k chargers, there's 300 million vehicles in the US. Half the people live in apartments where they wont have chargers the numbers don't add up. Only the wealthier people will be able to drive around. They want want you to buy a super expensive electric car. The avg car payment now is $700. Your cutting alot of people out of the car market. So they'll have to live in a city and ride public transportation. Stacked on top of each other like cord wood. Which is what the worldd ecconimic forrum wants.
This country was founded on freedom these cars limit your freedom. You cant travel as freely as you once did in ice cars. For the people that say rapid chargers will give same time of fill up as gas. Those chargers degrade your batteries at a rapid rate and batteries aren't cheap. I drive a plug in hybrid its been a good car but the battery is half the life it used to be. $10K to replace it.
People that don't think for themselves or bother investigating things fall for this non-sense. Think for yourselves Sheeple. Expand your mind quit listening to the narrative don't be so short sighted.
I'm curious how much they'll eventually charge for recycling the batteries, and what will actually happen to those dead batteries. Probably "long term storage" in a remote country for later recycling.
@@KevinKimmich44024 They are highly sought after for solar power storage where they can last for years more.
@@louisschummer931 So what? They eventually get scrapped too. Plus that is additional cost to disassemble the battery from the vehicle, which is then essentially worthless, and additional cost to ship somewhere for marginal use, then eventually recycled. On top of all that, we're still going to be using petroleum for pavement, for plastics, etc... like for wind turbine blades, then I guess pumping all the evil gas and diesel down the solar powered wells? At least this will go on for a while until the dummies pushing this unworkable scheme are driven into the sea by angry mobs who finally figure out that it's all a scam.
@@KevinKimmich44024 I'm a curious guy. On what information have you based your claims?
They could be the future, but they have a long way to go. As it stands now the range while towing will make it tough if you're hauling more than locally.
I think they will be perfect for local trucking, like FedEx/UPS delivery trucks etc.
I still think a true hybrid would be a better solution and a small battery for surge and accessory loads. Smaller engine running at a optimal rpm constantly would save a ton of fuel vs an engine coupled to a transmission.
For longer routes, yeah. But as the international representative said, these e-trucks are optimal for city use or short routes. If you need more range, you go for the diesel.
@@carl8790 problem is in 5 years what's going to happen with the battery? When they're done for the truck will be mechanically totaled because new packs will exceed the value of the vehicle.
@@bad05ford both you and I will not know what the cost of a replacement battery pack will be in the next five years. You also don't need to replace the entire battery pack. As more EVs enters the road, opportunities for repair shops will come by.
That's if battery manufacturers deliberately make their battery pack impossible to repair, which is what the buyers of these vehicles should be beware of. So, we'll see how it goes in the next 5 years.
@@carl8790 drm has made its way into multiple bms systems. Now if they don't implement it they should be serviceable by shop's such as electrified garage.
exactly, a small engine running on its ideal rpm coupled to a generator
Fun to see! Every time they show an aspect of the truck, I imagine areas of improvements in aero, drivetrain, pack density, and size. These will only get better and more efficient over time. I like that even with electric, it looks highly serviceable. With LFP packs, these may have a very long lifetime too if you keep the frame and suspension maintained, we'll just have to see.
The batteries have two short of a lifespan they haven't fixed that right yet they need more research
@@kirkslayden834 I've been using LFP batteries in my race car for 8 years now, hundreds of duty cycles, and racing is about the most abusive thing for batteries, and the batteries have about 95% of their original capacity. So no, the lifespan isn't "too short."
@@jpe1 What kind of racing do you participate in? Interesting that you`re using BEV.
@@frederickbooth7970 he races to the next charging station. 🤣
@@kirkslayden834 how do you know that these batteries have a "two short" of a lifespan?
Love how they say "in theory." In theory it should do this but it doesn't in actual practice.
In theory, it's 125 or 135 or so miles of range. But that's at a full charge. Like any EV, you'll want to avoid full charged and full discharged, because it'll wear out the batter. So, realistically, your mile of range will more in the territory of 80 miles, and that's under ideal conditions. In snow, on a hot day, going up and down hills, with a full load, even 80 miles will be optimistic.
A plug in hybrid makes significantly more sense. Dana/Spicer sells axles that have an electric motor driving directly into the axle. Electric for all the accessories to allow the engine to put the power to the ground, regen braking, tq fill to ease acceleration and climbing grades, to save fuel in low speed or stop and go, then a diesel engine optimized for steady state long distances so the vehicle won't have dismal range. All electric is foolish unless it's a specific local route or small range delivery vehicle that has long down time for charging.
For now I whole heartedly agree,, someday hopefully soon this experiment will not be a waste. Quiet literally the batteries still suck in terms of storage.
Diesel for life baby💪
True. After all, the other one is powered by coal, depending on the state's profile on electricity generation..lol
I'm thinking you can buy alot of diesel and maintenence for that 200k up charge. Lol
2.5 times as expensive…electric heavy duty trucks are a LONG way away!
I think it’s a great idea but I am curious how long the battery will last(years) and the cost to replace. One of the things I like about ICE vehicles is the fact that you could buy one that is 7-10 years old and save a lot on depreciation. I am curious how this will go in the used market.
Batteries cost 40-60% of the costs, if used regularly and charged often, they wont last 6 to 7 years at max
I have an 8 year old PHEV. I still have about 3/4 of new range. As expensive as cars are new and with battery prices dropping I'm considering replacing the battery before getting a new car. The next item to go bad in the car would be the transmission. My car "payments" go into a brokerage account and stays invested until the family needs the money. I've been making these "car payments" for a decade or so.
great point. friend told me he had seen that an electric car had a 2x footprint vompared to gas by the end of their respective lives. don't know if thats true or not. see vids on child labor digging raw materials that go into batteries. is that a cost that is factored in? lets peel the entire onion. both vehicles make sense as do many things we should be considering. Short term goals, mid term goals and long term goals. where i live on the n.c. coast we have 2 ways in.(3rd is a ferry system) # of weekly visitos is estimated at 300k-500k per week. yes those are the numbers quoted. what happens when we have a huricane and the beaches are evacuated? how do you charge all those vehicles? traffic jams ect. going west the interstate is 3÷ hrs away. just a thought.
@@robertkwiatkoski1292 it is true, a electric car making creates a larger footprint than a ic car would in its lifetime
ICE cars depreciate the minute you drive it off the lot, and drops in value the older it gets.
Thank you for the honest review Andre. Definitely sold me on the diesel when you consider cost, how damaging to the environment those batteries are, how far you can travel and the time to refill versus charging. Excellent job sir.
Something I haven't seen in this conversation is hours of service issues. This alone, for me, makes EVs 150mi range maximum vehicles. Otherwise, you're shut down for your 10hr break while it charges, and you sure aren't running 11/14 on a single charge, meaning less miles and either less pay, or higher cpm pay to make it up, leading to a significant increase in cost to ship.
I'm all for EVs, but barring a sea change in power density and battery weight, it really is looking more and more like local trucks are the biggest beneficiaries of the new tech.
AND how many houres you have to wait on the fuel-station? You think there is ONLY 1 electric truck that wants to charge???????? electric cars are useless if you can not drive it for 600 miles in 1 day........
He said 90 minutes to charge.
Yep well it's that or swapable battery packs. My money is on hydrogen for OTR
@@davidp2707 🎯👍
@@davidp2707 the problem with swappable packs is swapping stations, the added weight if your not using stations, and those batteries are just too expensive.
Would this be possible for a firetruck or EMS application, and how effective would it be for sustained stationary pto work, as well as travel distances. Would it be more cost effective than a diesel counterpart. Is it also 110 trickle charge compatible.
Could definitely see this for a fire truck. They idle 99% of the time so for high use fire departments it could save a lot in fuel costs. Would just need a diesel back up generator at the station in case of power outages to keep em charged.
I can't see EV being practical in these applications with the huge loads required to operate these things, rhe battery's would drain very quick
pirce makes an ev already
SO much more efficiency to be had in these vehicles. 135 miles from a 210kwhr pack is extremely poor even for this vehicle weight. Lots of optimizations needed in aero here.
The heavier you are and the more you have accel decel the less aero matters. Trucks like this are not the same as long haul trucks its a different load demand so aero is a part of it but not as much as you might think
Just wondering what the range would be if they linked that motor to an Allison autobox.
@@ramblingman8992 nothing. the autobox is there to compensate for the narrow rpm range of a truck and keeping it at peak torque for maximum effiency. now an electric block? imagine a semi doing 15000 rpm. same thing, but the pistons arent visiting mars cuz there's none (it's an hyperbole). EV's with gearboxes are non reversible polarity types and that boils down to 1 gear forward and 1 gear reverse. ie beetle trans evs run in 3rd or 4th and the other gears arent needed. you dont need trans losses if there is 1500 newtons available at 0 rpm till 5200... you just chug along. that's how the regera works, by the way. the electric motor eliminates the trans.
It will be interesting to see how they cope with winter, and salty environments. Sounds like the motor drive units need better balancing as well, you could hear quite a terrrible vibration in the video as you climbed in speed... Neat video overall
I still think the base price difference is wayyyyy too much for the benefits. What about the longevity of the batteries?
Fleet buyers will jump to electric very fast for the ROI, and just like in cars, the batteries will outlast the trucks.
I have driven trucks with 500k miles, and still running strong. No battery will last that long.
Short distance use in cities is perfect for electric. Less wear and tear and no blowing money out your exhaust in traffic
Our pickup and delivery truck that is used around metro Atlanta runs 8 hours a day and covers over 200 miles. This electric truck wouldn't make a half of a day before it was dead on the side of the road. There has to be a massive increase in range before it's ready for primetime.
That is what these trucks would be doing short trips around the City
I think they are significantly overcharging on the ev. The battery pack would cost around $25-30k, there is no need for a $170k price hike. Clearly gouging and abusing rebates.
Agreed the 210KWh battery should be around $30k. SO like you said the sticker price of that EV truck is extremely high. Considering you aren't paying for the engine, transmission and other things associated with them. Yes you have an electric motor, batteries, and associated items... BUT that should NOT double or triple the price of the truck.
I have a hard time believing that, even with maintenance costs and fuel costs, that the cost of the EV version would even out before the dreaded battery replacement. The EV is less maintenance, but not maintenance free. The only thing different is that there is no Cummins engine, so the only costs of the maintenance that is offset is related to the engine system. Plus, if the EV parts are unique to the EV version, like driveline components and stuff, it could be more expensive and more difficult to get parts for it. Even though it is cheaper to charge than a diesel is to fill up, it is still a potentially substantial cost when you look at the cost per mile. In the end, I don't think the concessions needed to make an EV work as a service truck like this make sense. However, this design seems like they just used most of the legacy designs of a diesel truck and adapted it for an electric powertrain. I think the only way that an EV in the service truck industry would ever work is if it was a redesign from the ground up to mitigate the downsides of having all electric. Like lighter weight everywhere possible, less rotating mass, like that driveline, instead maybe mounting the motor where the differential is. Also, improving the aerodynamics, rolling resistance, suspension etc. could go a long way to getting more range.
I drove OTR forever.
The company I drove for about 7 years ago gave me a new Robo truck. Had things like anti-collision breaking. That truck used to average 8.7 MPG when running 70 -- 80,000 lb.
But deadheading you could actually squeeze 11 to 12 MPG. And bobtailing it did better than my Dodge pickup coming in at just over 18 MPG.
They should be concentrating on hybrid. It works for locomotives, with that and regen breaking wouldn't need as many batteries and would always run as long as you had diesel. That would make it feasible for OTR.
@Peter smith most trucks are disc now. But air brakes are a DOT mandate. That way in the event of a failure of any kind, including air Supply the brakes still work. That is till they lockup.
But no doubt the air takes a few horsepower to operate.
1 hp = 750 Watts.
Even if it made sense I wouldn't look for the government to change anything in a timely fashion. It took over 20 years to get the 55 mph speed limit back up.
Rapidly losing air pressure in a big rig brings its own set of scary circumstances.
I blew a brand new right front tire just outside Birmingham Middle Lane of a five Lane Highway. I was going 64 mph. As the rubber blew apart it tore the airline off with it. So not only did I have to deal with the flat, the wheel was locked up as well. I used the Johnny brake the slow the truck down while crossing too the shoulder and then the off-ramp. (fortunately there was one there) The truck still wasn't stopped by the time all the brakes locked. At least that happened at slower speed. Fortunately it didn't jackknife or roll the truck. Had I instinctively just jab the brakes the front end would had dipped and things would have been even fuglier.
Just wait until the battery has to be replaced. It isn't a couple hundred dollars to replace. It's tens of thousands.
Sure the battery replacement is going to be a big cost. But that is after like 15 years of hard work. BEVs cam survive very high mileage during their short life. This will just be a cost that has to be factored in. It is no where close to as expensive as maintaining a diesel drive train and brake system over the same amount of time. Your bad assumptions does not understand the massive difference in cost Over Time.
@@paulbankard1525 True every 15 to 20 years.
I definitely think EVs have their place in our world (buses, delivery vehicles, etc), but replacing internal combustion engines for every application is probably not going to happen (at least as quickly as some of our politicians think it will).
You would have to ha e 100,000 pounds in battery's to equal what a 100x2 gallon truck can do...
It should, as more automakers are ditching gas powered cars for electric cars
Its definitely not going to happen with people using relatively small 210kwh batteries. Hopefully they go larger in the future.
@@darkchild256 it's definitely going to happen. A 210kwh battery has sufficient range
@@bradmagnuson6963 In schoolbuses and stuff yes, my comment wasnt a strike against EVs, it was more a strike against Internationals implementation. They should make the battery larger and fix their in-frame layout to better utilize the space of a vehicle that large.
Question: Does the "1% battery charge loss per mile traveled" loaded towing rule of thumb apply here? Inquiring minds want to know!
They really should remove "ning" from the F-150 Lightning. The more appropriate name is F-150 Light. Bud Light/Miller Lite/Coors Light and F-150 Light. It isn't the full bodied truck like the original. Looks Great!!..Less Towing!!
@@derekk6906 the fact that it's a monocoque has very little to do with the decreased towing, rather the fact that it's chassis is rated for the same total weight but the truck weighs more than the regular f150 is to blame for the lower tow rating, that and the fact that batteries just aren't there.
- Perspiring minds want to know …
Exactly this truck has a 100 mile range but that is without a load and they do not answer or address the mileage with a load. If that is decreased similar to other EV trucks then it is worthless.
@@The1withlogic they state it was tested with a 24000lbs GVWR
Same price, it would be great option. For double, almost triple the money, I'd have to stick to diesel.
Because buying diesel over the lifespan of the vehicle is so cheap? Not to mention near zero maintenance vs. combustion.
@@davidmccarthy6061 Near zero maintenance is inaccurate, 50% according to the company rep in the video. All of the running gear (bearings & steering) is the same and the battery cooling system is equivalent to an IC cooling system. No one can give accurate info on the lifespan of their battery packs and no one in these videos is willing to tell us what a battery replacement costs. For comparison Tesla considers the lifespan of an EV to be 200k miles and the battery pack should last that long ($12,000 to replace). That cummins will run 1million miles before you need to replace it. If the battery pack costs the same as a Tesla ( which i doubt) that would be another $60,000 for the EV truck over the 1 million mile life span of the diesel. EVs have a long ways to go.
@@Dylan-jw8if
Current EV are designed for 250k miles. Upcoming EV are designed for 500k, and the next generation is 1m miles.
@@lumberjackdreamer6267 If they actually deliver that I will be impressed. Still if the range for a loaded truck is less than half with the EV I would never purchase for personal use. My time off work is to valuable to be sitting at a charger for hours on a vacation trip.
@@Dylan-jw8if
You’re wrong. Charging an EV is usually a time saver. It’s like charging your phone.
No need to plan a detour to go to a gas station. I save a lot of time.
I can see electric trucks doing well in applications that are mostly short trips with lower overall utilization (like, only one shift per day). For long-haul trucking, range and time to recharge will be major obstacles in displacing diesels.
LOL, I don't agree. 2 round trips from LA to Irvine and I got to recharge for 90 minutes. 1 round trip from LA to Riverside and again I need to recharge.
And in LA multiply this by 100,000 or more truck and LA gets more brown outs?
Diesel Electric (Hybrid) would be way better than full on EV.
Wow, I’ve never heard of a vehicle that has a depleted battery that can charge to 100% in 90 mins off 125kWh charge rate with a 210kWh battery pack. How on earth do you come out with a truck like this with a max charge rate of 125kWh? Talk about dropping the ball.
Me thinks customers won’t be happy when they see real world numbers. Dude just straight up told a lie like it was nothing.
If you get 125kWh charger, and you fill 210kWh tank, 210/125 = 1.68 hrs, or 101 minutes. You don't need to use the whole tank for all applications. Be careful about accusing someone of something like lying as you're not an expert. New charging tech available today is 250kWh and 300 kWh, and going from 360V to 800V, which means 500kWh is probably not hard. Tesla has planned to power their trucks on Megawatt chargers (1MWh) which would be about 20-30 mins. Don't forget either, that starting and stopping costs way more than 6MPG, but BEV reclaim power wasted by diesels.
@@HansSchulze lipos don't charge full power the entire time... When they are close to full the amps will drop off quickly. However there is usually a certain percentage that is "unusable" to keep from damaging the pack... It is possible that a 125 could charge a mostly discharged pack in about that time but only a nutsack would run the pack down past 20%. Lipos don't like to be left fully charged and don't like to be discharged below 40%. You will greatly reduce the cycles and strength of the pack (internal resistance) by treating the battery like a gas tank.
@@breckfreeride agreed. Those numbers depend on the exact chemistry, which may or may not apply (100% 0% for LiFePo) or go even slower. I did derate 100/5 to 20-30 mins. Filling to 100% depends on usage too. 85% is pretty decent “full" on LiPo. Also matters if more cells are in parallel or not vs my 70kWh experience which has a motor wound for speed for a specific battery current config.
I work in design at Navistar! I am so excited to be seeing you guys involved in reviews of our products!!!
I used to work in Product Development for Navistar. Good company for young engineers.
You guys should change your parts licensing policies. They suck. I can get cheap parts for my Cummins BT6 just fine, making it practical. Try buying parts for my Navistar International DT466 and shit gets expensive fast. Makes it impractical.
Keep the EV's. I'm gonna roll coal on one today, just for Navistar
Best thing about the MV is the power train international is notorious for having electrical issues especially in the class 8 LT commercial trucks. 135 mile range in the EMV is gonna be used strictly for in town use. I'm a diesel guy at heart but once they get the prices way lower and and the range well over 500 miles I'll stick with my diesel engines since they cost 3x less overall
Yep we have a Work on it all the time international.
There is a very important part that I didn't hear addressed, although I could have missed it, is the estimated battery life expectancy and cost of replacement batteries. Was it mentioned, or was it left out on purpose ?
Gullible people think the battery will last for hundreds of thousands of miles like the diesel. Anyone with any common sense knows damn well the battery will degrade noticeably in five years and junk in ten
@@derekflanary6811 ..and probably cost 30k+ to replace, so that's 3k a year in fixed cost at minimum for batt replacement.
@@frodomocho1211 That's why I made that comment. They aren't cheap and I wanted to make that point.
@@derekflanary6811 This isn't a phone battery. EV batteries in cars are already running 100's of thousand of miles with minimal degradation. With good battery management and conditioning, like appears to be happening with this design, there is no reason the batteries should not be fully useable in 300k.
That's great, go waste your money
What happens when the battery cooling system fails? It's 110 degrees where I live right now. Diesel or electric, still has environmental cost. And it still has a cost to charge it.
Did they say 33000lbs on that electric truck? So, you'll need two or three of those to do the job of a current 18 wheeler?
This unit is not meant to replace Class 8 units. This is a class 6 truck. Also, GVWR is based on chassis only. most class 8 trucks have a GVW of 52,000 but legally haul 80,000 because its then coupled to a GCWR with a trailer. This class 6 truck could easily pull a trailer as well depending on application and would move that GCW more like 60,000. However its still not a tandem axle truck, that is where the difference in GVW weight comes into play.
flash in the pan
It's worth keeping in mind that the environmental impact of just about any product tends to scale with it's cost.
Another option would also be the that the companies with contracts can put chargers at unloading locations and charge while unloading. Just put a meter on the charger and pay the delivery place for the electricity used.
No one mentions how fast “fast chargers” ruin batteries.
They will never admit to it .
Probably because they don't? That's up to the engineers to balance the vehicle use case with the expected charging requirements.
It depends on the battery chemistry but i am sure thats above your pay grade.
Ive used electric powered heavy equipment at work for 20 years. When it's on fast charge you can literally feel the current flowing through. If something goes bad cable gets so hot it'll burn your hand if you hold it.
125kw in 200kwh + it's actually very slow
Why do we always try to run before we learn to walk.
These big electric trucks just don't make sense now with the current battery tech and huge cost of batteries, but what would make sense is a small efficient diesel generator that would charge the batteries and supple power to the electric power train as needed. A true hybrid system like they use in large commercial boats and trains. This would be cheaper to manufacture and very cost effective to operator for now, until battery tech and cost get better. Just my honest opinion
I completely agree with this, I wish there was incentive for this tech. BMW made a small vehicle that worked on this principle.
Batteries could be smaller and cheaper, and the combustion engine would be ran at a very steady state so could last a long time.
@@xjmg007 yes, the i3. Unfortunately BMW charged buyers $50K US for that in 2014. It may have sold in large numbers if it was priced cheaper.
I agree a diesel electric makes sense but what about the added space and weight, reducing the payload? It would also be a special case, short runs to empty the EV battery, run on diesel for longer routes, like the Chevy Volt.
Only problem is that 120Kw generators, do not have small diesel engines
This would make an excellent truck for construction supply companies. When I was a crane operator I often was traveling 100km than idling at 1100rpm for a couple hours to run the hydraulics and frequently regenerating the exhaust as a result...and wasting fuel. Good vidjéo fellas🤙
I call bullcrap on limited maintenance on a all electric truck... All those computers, electric motors and wiring
I wonder what the avg miles you'd get from both the cummins and battery packs before having to replace them. Then factor in the cost of replacement (granted you'd assume the cost to replace the batteries would be lower in 10+ years) and I'd have to wonder whether the EV would be more economical, especially with that 2-2.5x cost up front.
Why would you assume that batteries will be cheaper in the future. China owns almost all of the lithium and cobalt mines throughout the world. Even if a new battery technology is invented, it will not be cheap. There will be some tremendous tech improvements coming. Why pay 3 times the price now. Wait until volume brings the price down.
You need to quit wondering pal !
It really is nice seeing an apples to apples comparison between two of the same chassis. I've done the same in my own research with Peterbilt and Kenworth class 8 trucks comparing the electric versions of the same chassis. One of the costs that they don't mention that I'm very curious about is the price to change out batteries in the electric. They claim that the "overall maintenance costs" of the electric are down but if you consider changing batteries that cost hikes way up. Take a look into the world of Tesla's battery changes with them often costing $22,000 and the buyback rate for one of those to the dealership is $500 if the battery is dead. I am concerned that they simply not telling this they make electric to look a lot more inviting than they really are. Also expected life out of one of those battery packs and not to mention half the range for twice the price The only advantage or reason to buy one of these is because you want to buy an electric.
Edit: sorry almost a quarter of the range
Daimler's BEV long haul freight truck battery packs are a huge 550kwh. In this application BEV tech does not make sense to me. I figure the pack will deplete at 150k-200k miles. Every 2 years a new battery pack? What I'm waiting for is a plug-in hybrid PHEV long haul with 110kwh packs matched to diesel, gasoline or combustible hydrogen ICEngines. The PHEV pack is more of a "light duty" application so I figure they'll last closer to 200k miles before replacement. Translation: Five PHEV 110kwh truck packs will deliver ONE million miles of goods transport while BEV packs deliver only 150k-200k. Almost a no brainer application preference for PHEV over BEV. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
@@artlewellan2294 El Dorado is making buses with the cummins 6.7 and an electric motor inline so they are true hybrids. i dont know much about them. They are building a bunch of them for San Francisco. We custom made one for carb/epa testing and certification at my shop about 5 years ago.
You are confused because the smart part of you knows the whole EV dream is stupid. Yet you are expected to "be nice" and find a way to fit this lie in with that. This is the purpose of nonsense, to confuse you and diminish you into accepting and acting your approval of something you know to be a lie.
@@orthopraxis235 Dude, go rent a Chevy Volt for a couple weeks before you say it is all nonsense. The systems work, if you don't drive too far. That being said, there is still a lot of engineering needed to make it work for work trucks. I borrowed my coworkers Volt, it was impressive. Battery replacement costs are deal killers though.
Hydrogen hybrid w/battery would in my mind be the best way to go UNTIL batteries become capable of lasting a whole 10 hour day of driving in all conditions on a single charge. If they don't then it will be not feasible for the trucking industry to use strictly battery power.
22:55 this is completely wrong, the heavier you are you also need to use more energy to build up and maintain that momentum
The short wheelbase EV would be perfect as a repo truck. Sneak into place and grab the repo and be gone before the borrower knows. Will reduce the number of confrontations with the borrower.
Great for the garbage truck as well we can pull up in silence
I've been thinking about that ever since ev came out.
That's actually smart of them to dial down the motor as to not throw freight around or shock your securement. It's still an impractical vehicle for many applications. Your job sites aren't going to have charging stations. Also that cooling system is going to be an issue. Never fails that a rock, or piece of metal, anything will puncture, smash, or break a box. 135 miles is not far enough for many applications either.
You guys ought to go see the Iowa 80 truck Museum. They have old EV trucks that back in the day still had range issues. Nothing about this EV fad is new.
1.65 trillion barrels of oil, and that has fallen, and the world uses 34 billion barrels of oil per year. No oil has been found, and the last spike coincided with learning how to get oil from shale. That is 47 years, and that was 2 years ago. There are other uses of oil. The oil fad needs to be over. As for that one box, you are stating that your radiator never failed, and your transmission never failed. Radiators puncture, but that was never a reason not to buy a diesel truck. Money gives heat too, but you'd be considered a fool for suggesting burning it.
EV trucks are excellent for short haul last mile delivery stuff. Garbage trucks, short runs around cities making deliveries. There are better then diesel. Switch to the anything much above a 100 miles a day totally switches and the diesel is much better. It's all about the right tool for the job.
@@david19897 there is a reason why EVs were dropped on all applications. This whole push for EVs is not the answer. The technology isn't there. Diesel is still king and will be for a long time as long as expensive fuel takes money away from research.
Think of EV regenerative braking as similar to using the engine retarder on most commercial trucks. It feels the same.
Why cant they just have the front wheels power a generator to charge itself while driving? If you're on the open road you aren't going to be breaking and charging your battery. I don't know why they haven't implemented that.
@@punisher3607 if they were to do that, they'd be wasting more battery by fighting against the generator. That's a waste of energy, and also basic physics.
@@jurchiks Or just have solar panels on the roof of the vehicle or something like that ? I know it's not always sunny, but just an idea.
@@punisher3607 This truck has a tiny roof though. Now 18-wheelers... For sure.
There are some passenger cars with solar panels on them, too few IMO, but for large trucks that is a far more useful idea.
However, the #1 thing to optimize is aerodynamics, followed by weight, followed by efficiency of everything that's in the car (drivetrain, heating, cooling, any other electronics).
Just thinking alot of times when im working truck is running because im working at a job site not moving temps are -20 or 90 plus need heat or AC. How long would it take to drain battery pack?
They will need to get the price more inline to be competitive with this
New tech is always expensive.
Running costs with the EV are about 40% less.
true dis. up front costs always count for more than invisible savings.
@@Krieghandt Fleets don’t buy these. They rent or lease.
@@Krieghandt Also what is the resale value.
Great video, the 210kwh battery option would cost $24 to charge at .12cents per kw, assuming 90% efficiently and 10% juice left in battery. Pretty dramatic difference vs diesel cost. That being said, does not work for all applications. Why is it 130k more than diesel, yea it’s got $50k worth of batteries, but it also does not have a 20k Diesel engine and 16k transmission.
Fuel doesn’t have to be that expensive. The government is keeping it that way. When everybody drives a EV the price for electric will soar.
A comparison of replacement of drivetrain would be interesting. What are total replacement costs and the estimated time before replacement. So for the electric it would include the motor and batteries, the diesel would be engine and fuel related components. If the batteries could be recycled then that would apply, same for the diesel.
@@johnjohnson9017 Yeah, fuel kinda have to be that expensive. Because of the horrific consequence of burning it when you souldn't need to.
Considering 5kw lifepo4 costs around 1500$, then 210 kw battery would cost 63000 $ plus electric engine vs diesel engine and transmission. Fuel and maintenance costs should be higher on ICE.
@@fduran6993 You are considering retail price for a small battery. The manufacturer will get bulk factory prices.
In 2021 those prices were considered around 130$/kWh.
Let's count 200$/kWh for the factory pricing, your battery would cost around 40K$. It's even better.
As you said, ICE maintenance and fuel cost would be more than double the price of this battery.
Btw the drivetrain wears way less on an EV. The engine has pretty much 1 moving part, aand is rated for at least a million miles without any maintenance. There is no clutch, no gearbox (just a reductor), and if you use 2 motors, you don't even need a diff.
I’m glad Ev’s are being developed but the problem still stands if you have a ev you still need a gas or diesel vehicle while it doesn’t work the other way
Wow! 19 seconds 0-60. That's a true slug pace.
I can't wait for Tesla semi at 5 seconds 0-60 empty. 20 seconds 0-60 fully loaded.
Tesla semi is bargain at 150k with 300 mile range with full load
180k for 500 mile range with max 80k load.
Delivery should start sometime before end of the year.
The technology is feasible for certain applications. The price is going to be a big hurdle to overcome, especially when you add in the cost of charging infrastructure for them. It's easy to see why Cummins will be rolling out hydrogen engines. Even with advances in battery technology the electric heavy truck is going to have limited applications.
How long would it take to roll out hydrogen filling stations?
I think in city hauling these would be better than diesel.less noise and awful smell...not ready for long haul
The EV seems like a good fit for a power company.
Maybe for meter readers and such.but the big work trucks spend to much time idling to run hydraulics.
@@lesleyboeder1798 Electric vehicles don't need to idle. That's one of the avantages. Thank you for your comment!
You failed to pay attention for the reason they idle. Running the hydraulics.
last larger turbo diesel I drove was an automatic and got 17 mpg
THAT IS SO GOOD! HOW MANY GALLONS DID YOUR TANK HOLD!?!
@@hyperjanny1510 I think it had a 40 gallon, was a 24 foot rental Ford, actually put off large pickups unless one of those were there. 4-6 mpg on the similar sized gas kind of sealed it outside short in town trips.
@@ty2010 So Your Average Range Is: 680 Miles
@@ty2010 In Our Most New Car Our Max Range is 1700 Miles And The Minimum Range Is 17 Miles.
Both are beautiful. They will be popular and useful for all types of things. The firetruck will be awesome to see. A backup diesel generator will probably be needed for on site recharge and powering the hydraulic systems, pumps and tools. Eelectric and juiced up they can get up to speed a bit faster, perfect performance for first responders where seconds matter and budgeting fuel cost to save money for communities, organizations, agencies. Well done and keep on keeping on.
Fire vehicles are exempt from the requirements. Also, a fire truck towing a generator is ludicrous.
You could fuel an entire fleet of trucks for years with the additional money you would spend on one of these electrical units. They need to drastically drop in price to make them affordable. Also just looking at the way the batteries and the battery controller are laid out it looks very shabby with a lot of exposed wires and connections. This is an experimental unit at best.
Quit being a naysayer! Change is going to come with your like it or not! Batteries will get better and prices will come down. Are you still using the dial phone and a victrola?
Comparing both vehicles side by side the ICE version is infinitely better. It is 1/3 the price, no charging, reliable, far better range, etc. I own a business and there is no way I would ever purchase one of these as they are a complete waste of money. Maybe in 10 years when the technology has some time to catch up to ICE trucks but right now and for the next several years diesel trucks will rule the road. I am just calling this vehicle out for what it is, an over complicated, over priced, under performing piece of garbage.
@@lightningstrikestwice6302 the government didn’t have to mandate the change from horses to cars. People made the choice as the tech just made sense for most people. So why does the government have to mandate the change to EVs? Not to mention the full switch from horses to the ICE took 50+ years..I’m not saying EVs aren’t the “future”, but the tech is a loooong way from being reasonable for most people
Isn't it a little bit overkill to to have a service truck that big? Dually, heavy frame, 6.7l engine... All it does is hauling wrenches and hammers. In Europe we use vans like Ford Transit or VW Transporter for such purposes...
There are plenty of smaller trucks. Something this big will be hauling something very heavy in the bed regularly that would be impractical in a smaller truck and potentially pulling something behind it besides. Usually utility companies and such use this type of thing. Not that common though for the reasons you say.
Now do a welder, and air compressor, and a crane to lift heavy parts in and out of the service body.
Q: Isn't it a little bit overkill to to have a service truck that big? A: well depends on what you're "servicing". the support trucks the railroads and the public utilities use tend to be Medium Duty rigs like this. also the boys working on "Yellow Iron" (Cat, Deere, Volvo, JCB) in the farm and construction sectors need to run these same rigs.
Interesting that they are using lithium iron phosphate. Those batteries should last forever.
Great review and comparison. EV trucks have a special place depending on the type of work, mostly short-distance deliveries (the school bus example is perfect), but the diesel engine still beats it, so long as it's a truck. Keep the reviews coming! Greetings from Nairobi, Kenya.
Also, where temperatures can get VERY hot in Kenya, that could spell doom for the batteries that power EVs. Extreme hot AND cold temperatures kill the EVs batteries, and as the INDIVIDUAL batteries are VERY expensive to replace, imagine having to purchase 3-4-5 batteries--only to risk killing them again from exposure to extreme heat?! VERY, VERY impractical application. Besides, diesel fuel runs under any temperature and condition. It's really the best all-around fuel in the world.
@null null Apparently you've never heard of FUEL ADDITIVES?? You know, preventing gelling, fuel line freezing, or increasing cetane levels ring a bell?? Or mixing 20% BIODIESEL with 80% petroleum diesel enabling engines to run for VERY long cycles without incident.
Larger point being, diesel fuel is VERY FLEXIBLE, and GIVES YOU OPTIONS, whereas there is ZERO flexibility when it comes to frigid OR extremely hot conditions and car batteries.
Glad to have helped enlighten you, Fredo ;)
@null null Yep, you're a dope. Hence my reference to GELLING, or CETANE LEVELS. Here's a newsflash, Fredo: diesel that has higher cetane levels doesn't have to work as hard to warm up and can make starting in cold weather much easier.
Ask yourself why Canadian truckers OVERWHELMINGLY RELY ON DIESEL FUEL IN WINTER MONTHS?? Duhhhh, could it be because they use the aforementioned FUEL ADDITIVES to keep diesel working in often frigid conditions. Again, glad to further enlighten you, Fredo (that is assuming you know where Canada is located).
@null null I guess you have never seen ice road truckers.