That'd legit be hilarious. I mean I'm still not buying the remake because of the censorship, but I have the original on Steam Deck and that's more than good enough for me.
@@megaman37456What censorship? I thought the only censorship was how they rewrote things with Vivian in the original USA version, which it seems like they fixed in the new one.
@@oasis9009 Yep, the only shown instance so far is the Goomba trio in the sewers dialogue is completely different from the original game, and if that's changed I'm willing to bet they bastardized the entire script.
i know people generally agree it's not a huge problem, but one of the things that always struck me whenever I looked back at TTYD is just how smooth it plays. the 60 FPS really adds a lot to the presentation.
I agree completely. Lots of people are saying that 60fps doesn't matter for the type of game that it is, but I really think 60fps added a LOT to the visual aesthetic of TTYD. That coupled with bizarre visual changes, mainly overly reflective surfaces, have completely put me off this new version.
@@FirstRecords204 Yeah I really love how smooth the title screen in the original is. It's almost like it's a completely static image with 0 movement whatsoever.
10:53 actually, it does happen at least once per chapter, I’d say it was a much more prominent focus than people perceive. Beyond the obvious crowd during battles, here’s a list of some, MAJOR SPOILERS AHEAD: Prologue: X-Nauts Ch1: Fuzzies and Dull Bones Ch2: Punies Ch3: Glitzville Crowds Ch4: Boos in the steeple and the chest Ch5: Freeing the roads Ch6: Smorgs Ch7: Bob-omb cannon scene Ch8: Dry Bones I’m forgetting plenty, but yeah, MANY instances! Perhaps unorthodox, but this is like a “gimmick” with TTYD, like Color Splash’s paint and TOK Origami
And at least for the prologue one, it seems they actually fixed some frame rate issue in the remake, as in the earlier trailer that scene still had frame drops. However, looking at the recent footage, there is none at all.
Im glad an OG isbpointing this out. The whole having 100+ npcs on screen was a selling point of the GC back in the day! This wasn't just a gimmick but also a result of the consoles capabilities being experimented with
And a mostly-non-Mario example: In Smash Bros. 4 3DS, one of the sacrifices made to get that game running at 60fps was making the Assist Trophies' animations 30fps. Yeah, the Switch may be more powerful than that, but it's still ultimately a tablet/laptop. ...isn't game development F̶̰̦͆Ư̷̢̗N̷͍̙͋́!?
@variumi actually it's been mentioned that the frames drop even at 30 fps but it does seem to be in the same areas where it frame drops in the same areas it did in the original game either way it probably won't bother me too much.
I also think it's worth pointing out that the devs of the Metroid Prime Remastered have stated that they had to cut some of the fancier effects to keep it at 60. I don't remember all of the interview but I specifically remember that they said that's why they cut the real time lighting caused by Samus' weapons in the remaster.
@@gospelarchain4504 that's great. that's why pc gaming is just better. for some reason console games are still pretty allergic to giving people options
Everyone is talking about how the game is 30 fps, but no one is talking about partners actually being able to turn around and not just stare at the screen(Bowser too)
I'll be honest, if you hadn't told me that there was a framerate difference between the old and the new game, I doubt I would have noticed it playing. I still don't see it even now that I know.
@@sinisis_sinisis Maybe, but honestly, I've never cared whether a game played at 60 frames per second or 30 frames per second. As long as it wasn't 30 seconds per frame, like what happened during a playthrough of Skyrim once, I'm happy.
@@Fisto64 only reason to worry about the framerate, if you played PVP games like League of Legends, Counter Strike or games that rely on your inputs like fighting games (Streetfighter, Mortal Kombat), platformers with challenging layouts etc. But complaing that Paper Mario doesn't have it is quite weird. You fight in a turn-based RPG with a few action commands that probably are adjusted to the framerate anyways, there is mostly puzzles to solve that don't need high framerates, cause you never need to do precise platforming etc.
True, but to those people that are complaining, they should take action and stand their ground on what they believe to be a legitimate issue by voting with their wallet.
@@mihd9874 it is definetly their right, but if we always stand our ground for minor Things , no game will sell a Million ever again, and Gaming could be Finished again, like in the Atari Days.
@@herrzeiens3503I think the middle ground is to support the game and deliver feedback. I mean that works from time to time but most effective for products you care for.
@@herrzeiens3503 Hahahahaha! oh man, the notion that gaming would be finished if no game ever sold over a million ever again that's a good one buddy. Maybe AAA would be finished but I only consider that a good thing.
I don't think people are angry that this game is ruining at 30fps, I think it's a sentiment that's been boiling over for a long time, and it's that ANY game at this day and age, runs at 30fps and CAN'T hit a consistent 60fps. I feel like this point is kinda mute though when you're referring to the Switch. An almost 10 year old piece of hardware that was running on 5 year old hardware when it released. The fact that it even DOES the things it does with the technology that it has is straight up bonkers.
I wish more people would see the *novelty* of what you just said. Watching the switch play certain games, Its like getting a calculater to cook you a 5 star meal. That is in it's own right rather impressive, despite the tech hurdles it faces. 🤷♀️
@@callumglowacki7333In case It worried you, for what Ive seen, is that action commands are probably gonna be more input friendly just as the newer games, so a lower framerate wouldn't be that much of a deal.
@@JoseViktor4099plus it’s a turn based rpg. If this were an action playformer, shooter or a fighting game I could totally understand the grievances. But what part of this game absolutely demands more than 30fps?
I believe that Masahiro Sakurai stated in a TH-cam video on his channel that while 60 FPS is preferred, most developers consider 30 FPS to be acceptable as well. I'm with that mentality. Yes, I'd prefer 60 FPS, but a 30 FPS framerate doesn't make a game completely unplayable garbage.
@@GameFreak64101 Talking about video games in general Of course, if frame-perfect inputs are a fundamental part of the experience, getting as high of an fps as possible would be preferable, however that isn’t the case for the vast, vast majority of games out there
I have never seen the difference. Everyone’s like “Oh, this is 30 FPS? That sucks man!!” Meanwhile I’m here like “THEY LOOK THE EXACT SAME! ARGUE ABOUT SOMETHING MEANINGFUL!!”
I'm ok with 30 fps - that said I'm hoping the Switch 2 has some kind of frame boost for OG Switch games, kinda like the new3DS did for games like Pokemon SuMo
It's probably because of the TV I played it on, but I do remember some instances where the gamecube version dropped below 60 frames for a bit. It's NOT game-ruining, but if this remake is at 30 fps to keep it stable, I'm totally cool with it.
As long as its a solid 30 I don't care. Its going to be really disappointing if it hits heavy lag moments, particularly if it hurts the timing based fighting. Even if the original ran at 30fps, I would have expected that a pretty basic remake made with technology that is decades newer would be able to sustain what many consider to be the bare minimum for console based gaming
Considering it will be 30 I hope they make the input timing window to be a little longer than the original. After all Nintendo has been making games easier for the casual audience.
According to reviews it is consistent, however there is evidence of very specific moments having frame rate drops. It’s hard to say how this’ll affect gameplay yet but, if it’s by a lot even if that’s just in those very specific moments… Well, then you have my concern for how this was coded specifically.
Imagine being part of the movement to get a remaster, getting this wonderful remake instead, and then boycotting it over the frame rate. I REALLY hope there aren’t too many people doing this.
Hmmm yea I think I will just pirate and emulate it. I bet I can make it 120 fps on my pc. Stupid slow ass switch (ttyd is my favorite game of all time)
@joeykeilholz925 can you like not? You're the reason we aren't ever getting another Paper Mario game like TTYD Emulate it all you want but all I ask is to not act like a child and pirate the game outright smh Edit: Just so I'm clear, buy the game first before you Emulate it otherwise you're ruining it for all of us when you pirate TTYD
I wont lie that it being 30 fps is the ONLY gripe ive had with the remake so far. But at the end of the day, its just that: a gripe. Definitely not a deal breaker for me, and im still going to enjoy the crap out of this. Im just so thankful they actually remade this game! It looks really beautiful
Devs reduce the framerate to 30 and increase fidelity = "Game runs like shit; Not buying" Devs increase the framerate to 60 and decrease fidelity = "Game looks like shit; Not buying"
Totally understand that people have different priorities regarding games. But if anyone denies themselves the experience of playing a great, special game because it runs at 30FPS and not 60-- that's just unfortunate for them.
@@videogollumerthe bullying people for not pirating is the weirdest shit ever 😂 and from what I can see it's mostly people just wanting an excuse to not pay for a game. When totk was shown to be 70, a whole wave of people were acting like the morally right thing to do was to pirate
The wow factor of a lot of sprites wasn't "only in a few scenes" it was in every battle. The big argument for the game cube as a whole, and the games that showed off it's power explicitly was we measure active models in the hundreds" it is why you can have 100 pickmin, several enemies and a captain all fighting in an area that's not just a white void. For sunshine it was water physics, for Luigi's mansion it was particle effects, for ttyd it was the audience, the mobs and the origami enemies like hook tail.
I do remember really loving how responsive and snappy the original TTYD felt when playing - I just didn't know that 60 fps was a part of that back then. It really felt like I had to nail some of the harder action commands such as Power Bounce or Superguard perfectly on just the right instant, and that instant felt perfectly tied to the action taking place on screen. Nailing a critical Superguard or getting a rediculous Power Bounce felt SO SATISFYING as a result. I don't remember a single moment feeling like I was 100% sure I nailed an action command that had been unsuccessful, and that there must desync between the visuals and what the game was asking me. Of course, I didn't understand the concept of FPS at all, let alone that Superguards were difficult because they demanded a 3 frame window input, compared to an 8 frame window for regular guards. I didn't understand that part of that snappy feeling was incredible work done reducing input lag between the controller and my old CRT display, and I didn't understand how having 60 FPS allowed the devs to finely tune the timing of what they wanted the player to do and when. I didn't need to know all of that, it just felt responsive and smooth - the layer between the game and me slid away, and it was so easy to feel immersed. The thing is, I also understand that this game runs on a fundamentally different platform. My old GC controller was wired, the video output was analog, and the CRT television had no middle processing needed to convert the signal into a display. The Switch has digital controllers that run on Bluetooth, the video output is digital, and they can't control the degree of input lag on a player's potentially shitty Walmart Black Friday TV. 60 FPS is a smaller slice of that original TTYD feel compared to the rest of that combined. So long as the devs have paid close attention to the moment-to-moment feel of the game and rebalanced the action commands to tie what's happening on screen to my controller, without sacrificing that brutally difficult skill ceiling that felt so rewarding, I'll be a happy gamer.
It's really not, the consciously chose to make the menus that speed in the original. In the remake it's faster using Veil in the overworld. Both N64 Zeldas ran at 30fps on the pause menus and 60fps on the file select screen, but Majora's Mask was faster and snappier in both areas.
IMO this is a great example of a late switch era game that's releasing on the base switch buts its true potential will be on Switch 2 (Totk, Pikmin 4, most 3rd parties, etc)
30fps is NOT the true potential of TTYD. It’s not MEANT to run at 60! There are so many reasons behind such a thing, including artistic choice. TTYD could easily run at 60fps, but the devs didn’t want it to - and that’s okay! Geez!
@@RaFaPilgrim if 30 fps isn't ttyd's "true potential", how can it be a artistic choice? No game when given the option to run at 60fps will not utilize it, the switch just can't handle the remake at 60, and that's ok.
@@DualFace_1 The Switch can handle the remake at 60 FPS the devs just chose not to because the higher ups don't want old paper mario to make a comeback.
@@megaman37456 I think it's more likely that the budget wasn't high enough to give the devs time to battle everything required to get consistent 60 FPS.
I did appreciate what you shared, Arlo, and I think you made a good point about how this particular debate stems from the comparison to the original. I have noticed the difference between the frame rates, but to be honest, I have barely cared. The game is a good game that is fun and runs well. Plus, having played most of the game now, they did SO much to improve gameplay, such as the warp pipe system, the Partner Ring for easier switching of partners, and the increased coin limit. To me, everything about this version is better except the frame rate, and I am almost completely unconcerned about the frame rate. I think the game looks great. I think more of what frustrates me is the general sense of ingratitude I seem to see in a lot of the gaming community. That certainly doesn't mean game developers should do whatever and not care about quality, I'm not blindly defending game developers. But in general, I get the sense that people tie so much of their happiness and fulfillment in games that anything less than exactly what they want is an assault on them, rather than navigating minor disappointments knowing that life is much more than games and, frankly, happiness. So to me, it matters a little bit how you come to your conclusions, because you actually get a window into your priorities in a much deeper way than mere game preferences. Then again, this observation might come from the disproportionate amount of input from the vocal complainers, so it may not be quite as prevalent as it seems. I don't know. Just observations from some guy/ Thanks for making this video and sharing your thoughts. Glad to listen and to see how you try and navigate a touchy topic like this with grace.
As someone who prefers 60fps and picks performance modes when available, I did not know the Switch version was 30FPS from the footage and wouldn't have known if I was never told. I also didn't know the GameCube version was 60FPS (which I've played!) so take that as you will.
it's not just that it runs at 30fps, it's that in the footage we've seen, the framerate is inconsistent. it chugs. and thats in the official footage! the footage they deemed to be the best!
The biggest reason people usually favor 60fps is because of input lag. Paper Mario doesn't exactly have the high-octane action where that kind of responsiveness is going to matter much.
While this is still sometimes true and may be for this game, developers have decoupled fps from the frequency inputs are being registered for awhile now. It's not a guarantee that every new game handles input this way, but a lot of games anymore run input polling on a separate thread and at a higher speed than the frame rate (like anywhere between 60 to 1000 times per second), which keeps things responsive even in lower fps games or during lag spikes.
@@MidknightHour If this were the case for the remake... This would theoretically eliminate the need to adjust timing windows for action commands and super guards, right? That'd be neat.
More like beautifully restored, but it has less horse power in the engine. Takes a bit longer to get going compared to how it was before, but it still does the job.
@@LegitMLG360noscoper you live in the comments or what bro? Ive seen you a couple of times now lol. I do it as well, but zamn, at least I try to be positive, going on every comment to say something is bad is not healthy my guy.
The original ran at 60 fps. But the original was also on game cube, which is plugged in to power all the time and battery life is not an issue. The switch can be played on the go, so battery life and overheating is definitely something they have to take into account. They could make two different modes, a performance 60 fps mode when the switch is docked, but that would mean (as someone pointed out) switch lite users would have a different experience from those with the regular switch.
The original isn't really relevant in terms of the technical reasons the remake runs at 30 instead of 60 like the original. The switch has a fixed amount of processing power in either mode, and games that fully use that do result in less battery life but they don't ever make it run in an unsafe way. When docked, the switch is more powerful but it needs to render at a higher resolution to get comparable image quality to handheld due to the bigger screen, so most games bump the resolution rather than framerate.
i think a big reason why some people are especially bothered by 30fps is the comparison videos between the original and footage of the remake. when you watch 30fps and 60fps footage simultaneously, the 30fps footage is noticeably choppy, even though it usually looks perfectly fine on its own. it’s really an unfortunate situation considering the remake looks wayyy better than the original visually in any context other than playing both games at the same time (in my opinion)
I just want to say that yeah, of course people are angry about it running at 30 because the original ran at 60. Nobody cared with Color Splash or Origami King. Those were original games. The Thousand year Door is a remake. It‘s supposed to be an upgrade. Not a downgrade. If they want me to pay full price for a polished up, two decade old game, the least I expect is for it to not run worse than the original did on the two decade old console.
Ok, but if you were ACTUALLY paying attention to the FULL SCOPE of the remake, you'd realize it IS an upgrade. Yes, the framerate is cut but: 1) the visuals/animations are massively improved. 2) they are addressing major issues like backtracking and fast travel 3) they've added multiple new NPCs and dialogue to help you at any turn (including helping you learn the new timings for action commands, the thing most affected by framerate.) And more we might not even know yet. Acting as if the framerate, this ONE ASPECT, makes it a downgrade is absolutely absurd.
@@chibi2239 tf are you insinuating? That I didn’t pay attention because I do not like an objective downgrade from the two decade old version?? They can add as much as they want. That is still a downgrade. And after a game like Metroid Prime managed to run at 60, this game has no excuses. So don’t make braindead assumptions about others with opinions you don’t like. The lower framerate is an objective downgrade. And no matter of you making up that I „didn’t actually pay attention to all the things they added“ is going to change that.
@@risingblur770 for the fact you seem THIS pissed and, again, it's like the only downgrade (IF that. I'd argue they built the remake around this lowered framerate) yes, I don't think you're really paying attention to anything BUT the framerate. Also Prime remastered isn't the golden argument you think it is. If you ACTUALLY compare it to the GameCube version, you'd notice it got rid of/downgraded alot of the reflection effects. It had to be comprised too to run on switch.
@@chibi2239 ? What makes you think I’m pissed? That I said „tf“? Why should I be pissed about some random talking to another random in a comment section about the framerate of the remake of a children’s game? If anything, I just don’t like people making assumptions about me. I am paying attention. And again, it is an objective downgrade. No matter how much you want to believe I am ignoring other things. 30 is a downgrade from 60. Prime is the golden argument. It looks significantly better than the GameCube version. It is considered as one of the best looking games on the entire console. And it runs at 60. yeah, some reflections are less noticeable (which isn’t a downgrade but if anything an artstyle change, because the reflections are still there) but that is something I’m willing to pay for a stable 60fps. That‘s normally called optimization. And the game still looks significantly better than the original version. Which is why I used it as an example. Because I am seeing no reason to why a game like paper Mario, with it‘s very limited areas, can not reach the same framerate as the two decade old version on the two decade old console. Sorry if I came off pissed. But maybe that’s just you making assumptions again lol.
@@risingblur770 Clearly you don't remember all the times the original lagged, or had low fps objects on the screen. Metroid Prime Remastered barely looks any better than the original even with a side-by-side comparison and they had to remove effects to keep the framerate. Or are games like Skyward Sword HD and Sonic Colors Ultimate "the standard" for re-releases?
it not being 60 isn't a deal breaker at all for me, but I'm a bit tired of people saying that it doesn't matter AT ALL. It definitely does, and I don't like pretending it doesn't. Superguards are 3 fps in a 60 fps game. I've played a lot of both thousand year door, and pm64 mods that add superguards. The difference between 3 frame superguards at 60 FPS vs 1 or 2 frame superguards at 30 FPS is very very noticeable to me, and they don't feel as good imo. Again its not a deal breaker, I'll still have plenty of fun with the game, but I wont lie it is a disappointment (also by no means am i calling the devs lazy, its a result of the switches nearly 8 year out dated hardware. I'm sure they did what they could)
This reminds me of that one guy who was saying that making a console that doesn't run at 4K 60fps minimum was literally criminal at this point, and anyone who replied saying they didn't mind 30fps were all victims of Nintendo's heinous penny-pinching agenda.
I mean, there's a middle ground here. When Nintendo created the Switch, they used already dated parts from Nvidia because they were so cheap. The switch is powered by what is essentially a cell phone processor from 8 years ago. And they did ALL that to save like $25 on a unit. Would you NOT spend 25 extra bucks on the switch to have it be twice as fast? Because that's what Nintendo did.
@@nuggyfresh6430eight years ago from *today*? Or eight years ago by the time the switch released? Because eight years ago from today would be 2016, and that was quite literally only one year before the switch released. Please make this clarification, because the lack of clarification makes it seem like you’re telling a half-truth to make the switch seem worse than it actually is.
This game came out in like 2004. I played it on an old fat back tv set like many people did. Did those things even output 60fps? I'd venture a guess that very few people who played the original actually even played at that high frame rate.
😢As an Irish man who loves muppets and nintendo, Arlo has finally completed the trifecta by spwaking Gaelic. Never thought id hear arlo try to say Tír na nÓg (land of the young) 🌱
What most people don't understand with how the GameCube works since most people know it from emulation or Wii on modern TVs, but the GameCube was designed to work with CRT TVs at 480i (interlaced). Each frame only gets half the screen data (even scanlines or odd scanlines with each frame). So while it does render 60 frames per second, if you account for COMPLETE frames (even and odd scanlines included), it runs at 30 FPS. So I think there is ultimately little difference in framerates between a 1080p 30 fps game and a 480i 60 fps game.
This is a bullshit explanation. The Switch is fully capable of outputting at 60fps. Mario Odyssey, Kirby's Return to Dream Land Deluxe, Metroid Prime Remastered, and Skyward Sword HD all run at 60fps on Switch in both handheld and docked mode. There's no excuse here for a remake of a 20+ year old game to run at half the framerate of the original.
@llaffer this is wrong for two reasons. most if not all GameCube games can run 480p so you can get a full “60fps”, pmtyd is one of these games. 60 fields per second still means that game logic runs a 60 times a second which is very important with a game that requires you to time your attacks and defense.
I don't use twitter, so I didn't know this was a controversy, *but* I think it has less to do with 30FPS being a deal breaker for this game and more to do with pent up frustration about the switch itself. It was outdated on release, and its been 7 years. Switch owners are sick of having to deal with increasingly subpar performance. No other modern platform would be stuck running this at 30FPS.
And knowing a new console will be out in a year with potential abilities to increase resolution and frame rate for switch titles. They are treating ttyd like filler content.
@@stevenhedge2850 Ah yes, because if everybody doesn't know something is being made from the moment it's conceived it obviously doesn't exist and we should write off and ignore any and all corroborating evidence of it existing from completely unrelated sources who have no incentive to lie but are also all evil misinformation spreading grifters who all want to take your money. GUYS, I SWEAR THEY'RE NOT WORKING ON SWITCH 2! I'M THE SANE ONE HERE! YOU GOTTA BELIEVE ME!
Being totally honest... I have never been able to tell the difference between 30 and 60 fps... so when the big debates happen I end up feeling stupid just because I don't see the difference...
You don't have to lie, the difference in appearance and feel is massive, you just get used to it and then go back to 30 and it feels like lag, you have to get used to it all over again
@@petebagwell6666 if I’m playing a 60fps game that lags and drops to 30, then yeah, I notice it. But if I’m playing a game made in completely 30fps, especially an RPG, I probably won’t notice it. I didn’t notice it while playing Origami King. This is actually my first time learning that game was in 30fps!
@@Mr_Mimestamp Most people can effortlessly tell the difference between a Windows freakin desktop with icons on it at 60 fps vs 30 because of how obviously smoother the mouse is. I will admit though, life would be a bit easier if no one cared about fps or could even tell. That's for sure.
The difference between 30 fps and 60 fps is only really noticeable in real time action games. You will notice if there is a frame drop. If the whole game is 30 fps you will see nothing because it is consistent the whole game.
To the people saying they won’t buy thousand year door because of the fps, hope you enjoy origami king 2. Cause that’s what Nintendo will give us if this game sells poorly.
Damn dude I gotta stay away from this channel's comment sections. I always end up posting a heated comment and then deleting it. My only leftover thought is you are wrong about someone not trying to rip away our 60fps. That would be Nintendo. Like actual Nintendo. The ones that decided to put 20 features into the Joycons that have never been used but significantly increased console cost. So they couldn't afford to give it better hardware. And the joycons ended up being partly made of cheap parts that broke easily through regular use. The devs at Nintendo could have it all. All the fancy graphics, stable framerate, fast loading. But not with the Switch. Because Nintendo didn't prioritize giving their devs room to create. Let's hope that changes in the future. So thank you to the Dev team for working hard to give us a great game despite the hurdles.
The only time I ever think about frame rate is when it lags or is inconsistent. I personally cannot even tell the difference between 30 and 60 fps unless the same footage is side by side one 30 and one 60 and EVEN THEN I have a hard time. I just don't get it man
Dude get your eyes checked It’s a world of difference. Literally the same distance between a jpg and a 30fps game. Most people who claim they can’t see 60 are either liars or are using a cable from the 90s that can’t handle 60fps data.
@@MysteriousStranger50 Most people that say they “get headaches” looking at something that is 30fps or think it looks like a slide show are also liars. It’s a placebo. There is a difference, but what matters is if it’s consistent and the game being made around the framerate in mind.
The comment below is a copy/paste of an essay length comment I posted on another video. I think the only reason people are complaining about a switch game running at 30FPS in the year 2024 is because it’s a remake of a 20 year old game that ran at 60. I’ve heard people say something like, “If games like Super Mario Odyssey can run at 60FPS, why can’t TTYD, a remake of a 20 year old game that ran at that frame rate?”, trying to argue that the switch is totally capable of doing such a thing. Now I’m no expert on making games, but I’m pretty sure that there’s more things affecting a game’s performance than just how good it looks graphically. Also, Mario Odyssey and Paper Mario are two very different types of games, and they have very different art styles. Again I’m no game maker expert so I don’t know how these differences in art style, game mechanics and behind the scenes processes affect performance, but it’s something to think about right? Going back to the point in my first statement… has anyone ever complained about the frame rate in Origami King, like ever. People have said many things about that game, but as far as I can tell, it’s frame rate has never been discussed by either fans or detractors. Historically speaking, 30 FPS in a Paper Mario game has never been an issue for anyone as far as I can tell. Now, to be fair to the current TTYD remake detractors, I think some people are legitimately worried about how it’ll feel to go from playing a 60FPS game to a 30FPS version of the same game. How will it affect the timing of action commands? See, the thing about Origami King is that even though it is an installment in the Paper Mario series, it’s also an entirely new game so there’s nothing to compare it to directly in those regards. But when TTYD fans play the remake, they’ll be traversing the same map, facing the same enemies, using the same attacks, and defending against the same enemy attacks.The concern now comes from how will it feel in this remake to perform the same actions in the remake vs the original? I mean, it’s gonna mess with your muscle memory for sure and you’ll have to remaster some of those tougher more advanced moves. But I think the real concern is even after you get used to everything, will the lower frame rate still make the gameplay feel inferior to the original? Though it’s worth noting that since this is in fact a remake (not a port), it’s gonna feel different to some extent even if the FPS matches the OG. But I guess the FPS is a major factor in the overall feel too. Overall, I think this is a valid concern. The only way to know for sure is to try the game yourself. However, I’ve also seen people that are like, “A remake of a 20 year old game that ran at 60FPS now running at 30FPS? UnACCEPTABLE? Nintendo lazy!”, and go off of that principle alone without taking into account how much it’ll actually affect the game, how many improvements there are, or without taking into consideration the hardware it’s running on. The switch is a very weak console for today’s standards, and since it’s a portable, battery life is something they need to take into account as well. Okay I’m gonna drop my attempts at having an aura of objectivity for a second in order to say this: Anyone who thinks this remake is “lazy”… Bruh. You gotta be joking, THIS remake. just because of a lower frame rate? Ur silly. Silly goose. Ok with that out of my system, I feel like when it comes to people with that mentality, their motivations for not supporting the TTYD remake are less about the individual game, and more of a statement about not supporting lazy cash-grab ports/remakes in general. Companies (including Nintendo) have been getting away with charging AAA price for these things for years, so now when these people see just one lacking aspect of a re-release be revealed, they’re immediately like “Nope. Not supporting this BS. Not falling for it. You can do better.”
I been dumping my games and playing them on Ryujinx with a performance patch mod and It's impressive how a boost in fps can make a game feel a lot more modern. Recently finished Princess Peach Showtime and TLoZ Link's Awakening Remake. even in a lower res the art style and fps boost help these games feel on par with the other current gen consoles. Both of these games are perfectly playable at 30fps but for me there is no arguing how gorgeous Nintendo games look at 60+ fps.
I swear people are so picky about Video Games. True Paper Mario fans understand that this game is a fucking MIRACLE game, the fact that it's even being made is astounding and frankly I'll take what I can get.
I think people are getting more picky because these games just keep getting more expensive. Even the TTYD is over $60 in some areas. So I kind of understand it to a point. People want greatness when your spending sometimes more then a Walt Disney World ticket for some of these games now. Edit: people will be lucky if they can even get ahold of a physical copy of the game at launch, Nintendo games hold there value too well imo. Hence why people want this remaster, because the real GC game can fetch well over $100 sadly. Though I don't thin kit is going to matter because scalpers are going to make this $100 too.
So glad we've finally got our beloved game coming out soon so that we can talk about it obsessively!! And I'm glad you made a second channel to make more videos :-)
I don't know... I still think that it's a valid complaint that the remake's enjoyment can be hindered by its lower framerate than the original. This is coming from someone who is sensitive to framerates, but is still overall incredibly excited for the remake, I come from a place of love as they say. It is true that 30fps didn't come from a lack of care, and I'm sure they wanted to cap it to keep it consistent. But due to the game requiring strict timing with certain things like superguarding, I do think that it can indeed negatively impact someone who played the original, as half of those superguard frames are simply missing (unless if they buff superguarding by making the window larger). It's also true that if the original was 30fps, people would not complain. But I do feel it is reasonable to take issue with this remake halving the framerate since the original's was 60, and some people, regardless of how gorgeous the remake looks, will see that as an overall downgrade. And in regards to Paper Mario 64, Sticker Star, Color Splash, and Origami King running at 30 and no one taking issue with it, those are their own games with their own mechanics designed around the framerate and limited hardware, where as this remake is heavily based off of the original's framework and needing to compromise for the hardware their working on. If a Paper Mario 64 remake ran at 30fps, no one would complain. This whole thing is actually a recurring thing with some Nintendo remakes as of late. For example: Bowser's Inside Story got a remake that ran at 30 and people criticized it, Super Kirby Clash is a remake of Team Kirby Clash Deluxe that ran at 30 and people criticized it, and now this game got a remake and people are criticizing it. And while I do think that it's easy to be a lot more forgiving of this case because it's a remake of a game we've desperately wanted Nintendo to rerelease for years now, I don't think that it should be exempt from other people's criticisms and disappointments. What I think that this remake needed is a performance mode option for those who are disappointed with the lackluster framerate. There are plenty of folks out there that would take a worse looking game if it means having a higher framerate, such is the case with several PS5 and XBSX games, and even some third party Switch games like Pac-Man World Re-Pac offer a performance mode for those who really just want a higher framerate, and I feel having that option would make people less upset. But alas, I do not think Nintendo has ever included a performance mode for any of their games. Anywho, I rambled a little, but I wanted to get my thoughts on this matter here. I'm actually not as upset as others are with the fact that this game is 30fps since everything else about it looks incredible, but as someone who has done speedruns of some games where timing really matters and then went to a 30fps Switch version of said game and played infinitely worse... I feel that people's disappointments with this game's 30fps cap is justified, and it is also absolutely justified that the mass majority don't seem to care that the remake is 30 and think it looks gorgeous anyways. I just wish that there were options for these things. Nintendo games kinda have a problem with allowing multiple options of these sorts in my opinion. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are some criticisms people will likely have with this remake and I do think that those criticisms should be heard so they can maybe make this issue less common in the future. Though it may end up getting a 60fps patch on the next console if it's backwards compatible and this whole debate will dissolve haha.
The BIS remake complaint is stupid. Nobody ever gives specific examples on how the gameplay got worse from the framerate, whereas I can say solo Excellent attacks are MUCH more consistent. The Spin Pipe's issue is that it only hits 5 times, not 8
@@AkameGaKillfan777 They definitely modified the game speed to accommodate for the framerate, and maybe that’ll be the case for this remake. Though some people may see it as an overall downgrade, even if I feel it doesn’t affect me thaaaaaat much.
@@RyderPlatinumWarpstar I could've just lucked out, or maybe got the game after the lagging issues were patched, but I don't remember ever having that problem with the remake. You know what DOES have lagging problems? OG TTYD in several places, like turning sideways in East Rougeport to get behind the Trouble Center, blowing away the posters on the Riverside Station Exterior door that leads to the second Interior area, and the Chain Chomps near the riddle tower entrance in the Palace of Shadow.
@@AkameGaKillfan777 That is true. The original game did occasionally lag if the scene was too intense. In that regard there is a chance that the remake’s framerate will be more consistent. But I don’t know for sure.
I think it’s far from a dealbreaker to me, but I’d like to use another beloved game as an allegory for why a lot of people might be disappointed. Bloodborne is one of the best titles on the PS4, and for many one of the best games of all time, yet among all the Souls games that title has perhaps aged the worst directly because of it being locked to 30fps. Granted, it is a completely different style of game, however it is true that an otherwise excellent game can be bogged down as the years go by due to a low framerate. Also, the Super Guards in TTYD are actually quite tight on the timing, so those would really benefit from the additional smoothness!
Arlo you are speaking all my thoughts so well, it doesn't matter at all and in fact enhances the paper aesthetic. I have diehard friends that are passing on it just bc of the framerate.
8 to 15 is* Tell me you havent played Cities Skylines with 500 assets, props and 100 mods before without telling me you havent played Cities Skylines with 500 assets, props and 100 mods before🤣🤣
"BUT BUT THE ACTION COMMANDS" Me: That were already super generous compared to the N64 game, Superguard was insanely easy to pull off, and the rest of the game is, y'know...turn-based? Oh no. What a tragedy. Anyway, I'll take my giant list of upgrades and not give a fuck about the frame rate that literally doesn't matter.
You don't understand Arlo, the only reason it matters is for inputs. The framerate being halved makes all inputs twice as easy, including guarding and superguarding. It's basically like wearing a simplifier all the time. That's the _only_ reason why it matters. I personally won't melt away if it releases at 30 fps exclusively, but I hope they separate input window from framerate.
As long as games are able to hit that target consistently, it’s not an issue. Even still, there are games that don’t perform the best that I still love. Link’s Awakening remake stutters quite often, but it’s still a fun experience that fixed a lot of issues the original had. Getting a Steam Deck and running different games at different FPS and graphical settings has desensitized me a little bit. Little bit of stutter or ugly models don’t bother me too badly. Gameplay is king 90% of the time (to me at least. Other people may think differently).
Link's Awakening remake stutters so much that the entire game is ruined, you could not pay me to play that terrible version again. And it's weird that you say that gameplay is king to defend bad framerate, because gameplay is the thing that suffers most from bad framerate. When the framerate is dropping, when the game is constantly slowing down, it's not fun to play anymore. It's ruined.
@@mjc0961 I think it largely depends on the game. If I’m playing a fighting game or platformer, I need stable 60 all day. But a top down action game or RPG doesn’t suffer as far as gameplay when it comes to that for me. Should developers prioritize stability? 100%, and especially for a top down game like Link’s Awakening stutter is beyond ridiculous, but I can personally live with it is all I meant. I know it varies heavily from person to person. Console games have no excuse though. I’m mainly used to it after tinkering with running games at different settings on a device that’s adjacent to the PC experience. If TTYD remake runs at a consistent 30, it’s not really a bad thing, it’s just a difference from the original.
Honestly for a game that's running at 30 fps, i literally never noticed, it doesn't even LOOK like its below 30 most times, its the most 60fps thats actually 30fps looking game I've seen. no matter the fps though, I'm still gonna buy this game and enjoy it with all my soul.
More than anything, I feel like this game running at 30FPS just shows how outdated Switch hardware is even for "stylized" and cartoony games. Im so excited for Switch 2 and I hope they release performance patches for all the big ticket Switch 1 releases.
to note, i think yes it was 60 and downgrading shows that were in this state in the industry where older games can out perform in terms of frame rate, and it might not be as visually stunning how can we accept that we have better technology and not produce better all around, we have to cut corners. I think when you present the argument like that, its def understandable why this is big peeve. especially if there was a case where they coulda just ported the original intact, but instead choosing to remake it means we've lost something we had originally.
It’s even worse when you realize that there was probably a lot of love put into the remake based on all the improvements they made (like the new warp room)
Because its 2024 and with the technology, coding, and optimization techniques... hitting 60fps is definitely possible especially with dynamic resolution (which is used in super mario odyssey) also, fire emblem warriors has a performance mode which prioritizes framerate over resolution. I'm going to speculate that TTYDR was supposed to be a switch 2 game (we NEVER had two paper mario games on the same console) but Nintendo needed to release something big this year so they used TTYDR. (BTW, I pre-ordered the game twice and will still enjoy it but people need to understand that framerate today is 60-120fps. A decade and a half ago, it was 30-60fps... which is why people are annoyed by it)
@@muffinman1946 Fir explained in an Odyssey Hide-and-seek stream that Nintendo used some sort of technique with simple textures to keep the game 60fps. There's also a LOT of pop-in if you fall from long heights, like the inverted pyramid in Sand Kingdom and stew pot in Luncheon Kingdom, and in there, the rocks have always looked a bit off to me. Fire Emblem Warriors has pretty mediocre graphics and VERY low-res textures that you won't notice easily because how much you're constantly running around, cutting away at hordes of enemies.
Nintendo fans nitpicking a game over gratuitous details!? Stop the presses!! I'm with Arlo on this one. As long as the game runs well without frame stutters or other issues, I honestly don't care. I, too, would rather the developers work within the limitations of the hardware and provide a smoother experience than have frequent performance hiccups that deter from enjoying the game.
the fact that they have focused on high quality visuals in this game (and because of that it only runs at 30fps) will work in our favor in the long run. In a few years we'll be emulating the game anyway and then 60fps won't be a problem and we'll have stunning graphics. if they were to tone down the game visually now, we'd be at more of a disadvantage in the future. I think it's great how it is.
Okay, I am going to try and explain why many of us are frustrated about the 30fps, and why it's frustrating to see videos like this where the issue gets completely minimized and we are essentially called insane. There are a lot of issues that halving the framerate brings, but I'll address those later because very few people who argue against people mad at the framerate ever actually engage with the problems it causes. Instead, they often use an insane strawman. In fact, it is so common even this video uses it, so I feel it's important to address that first. That insane strawman is "Oh shut up. This game is a miracle. Do you really want it to fail because it runs at a framerate that's fine for other games?". My issue with that "critique" is that it A) shows a fundamental lack of understanding about what framerate is and how it affects a game, and B) has absolutely nothing to do with the critique whatsoever. In my experience, no one who has an issue with the framerate isn't going to buy this game. We _ARE AWARE_ that this game is a miracle, and we _ARE AWARE_ that it's important to buy it for the future of Paper Mario and Mario RPGs in general. To _ALL OF US_ that need supersedes the need to have a framerate that matches the original. What we are doing is expressing our grievance that the game runs at 30fps, because that is a considerable downgrade and it is frustrating. To explain _why_ it's a downgrade, let's go back to that initial "critique" of the 30fps crowed. When you say "Oh shut up. This game is a miracle. Do you really want it to fail because it runs at a framerate that's fine for other games?" what you are actually saying is, "Oh shut up. This game is a miracle. Do you really want this game to fail just because of a tiny thing like removing half of the frames that used to exist? Half of the frames that the developers knew existed and the game was designed around having? removing a fundamental piece of how the original was constructed at a base level?" When framed like that, it becomes a bit clearer why this argument is stupid on so many levels. I could go into specific examples, like how the superguard timing window was 3 frames in the original which is literally impossible to replicate at 30fps, but I could also just point to the Bowser's Inside Story remake. The BIS remake also halved the framerate from 60 to 30, and that had a massive and very tangible impact on the experience. It affected the game in terms of game feel and responsiveness of the controls, and it also forced the devs to slow attacks down massively because half the frames that you had to see an attack coming no longer existed. This applied to both the enemies' attacks and the player's attacks. Now that half the frames were gone, the attacks could not be as fast as they were before because they were created with the knowledge that double the frames existed. It's especially noticeable on stuff like spinpipe, which is slow as molasses in the remake because the pipe has to spin at a speed that is discernable at 30fps. The BIS remake is the easiest thing to point to because it is a real, historical example of the devastating effects that halving the framerate can have. One of the biggest issues with the BIS remake is that because everything had to be slowed to accommodate the new framerate, the entire game feels like it is wasting your time, especially if you're used to the original where some actions were genuinely twice the speed. When things take twice as long or more than they used to, it is infuriating. When a new game runs at 30fps, there is no 60fps version to compare to. Even 60fps patches are the same game but with more frames. When there is an original version made at 60fps, made _for_ 60fps, _LOSING_ that 60fps makes the entire thing slow down. The existence of the BIS remake is why many of us feel utterly fucking baffled when people act like there's no way this could possibly cause any issues ever in any universe. The BIS remake is a massive and very real example that shows that no, this can have extremely apparent and sometimes devastating effects. When we get called essentially insane for thinking that there's a universe where the halving of the framerate causes issues, it is beyond frustrating. It's literally like being gaslit and told "The BIS remake never happened". I assure you, I wish I lived in a world where the BIS remake didn't happen the way it did, but it did happen, and it shows exactly why this can be a very bad thing.
Something to mention is that BIS being a failure isn't really because of the framerate. Is because they were trying to remake a semirecent Game on a console that were compatible with that semirecent Game, and worst of all, outdated by the Switch by almost 2 years. Of course, 30 FPS could be an annoyance, but It wasnt the primarly issue why It failed, knowing that SS RE, a Game that run at 60, also was a minor, but still a failure. That said, we aren't complaining that 30 FPS can't be an annoyance and preferible to 60, is a real shame, but the constant effort to try to boicott a Game we havent played yet, more when the success of this Game could be difference Between success and failure of the franchise, hence why we are so defensive. And before someone ask "Well then if they wanted to make It a success why dont make It 60 FPS??????" Because Intelligent System always put graphics over performance since Sticker Star, and I Heard a lot of criticism towards the newer games, but none even touched the framerate. And while is a shame, is completely understansable why they took that decision at It seems that the remake is handled by the same engine as TOK. This decision could be supported by that an action RPG, unlike a Game that is really action based, doesnt really require a high FPS to perform Well. An stable FPS and a increases of tight Windows such as action commands that wouldn't work on 30 might be enough. That said, I feel that this is an exagerated issue, and while It sure deserves to be criticised, It doesnt deserves to be boicotted by people trying to pirate It on Yuzu because "is lazy", disregarding all the beautiful work behind this remake.
@@JoseViktor4099 I just wanted to say, I don't think most people who are upset about the FPS are boycotting the game. I have seen many people pissed about the FPS on various online Paper Mario communities and most of them have said they are either buying day 1 or have already pre-ordered the game. I mean, there's a reason that pre-orders are selling out. That said, I don't want to say you've invented people who are saying they'll boycott it, but I imagine those people just irrationally have 30fps games. I prefer 60fps to 30fps always, but I still play and enjoy many 30fps games including the original Paper Mario. I am always sad when new games are locked at 30, but I only really care about 30fps when 60fps is lost for it. But to touch on the BIS comparison a bit further, first I just want to say that I wasn't saying the FPS was the entire reason it failed. I agree that the fps had nothing to do with why it failed. But the FPS had a large part to play in why it sucked to play that version in comparison to the original. Compromises had to be made to account for the frames that no longer existed, and a lot of the compromises were beyond egregious. With that said, the TTYD remake in all the footage I've seen is making much more intelligent compromises, but some things are still slower. Also, some reports are saying that the superguard window has been extended, and that could have an enormous effect on game balance. Superguards are already almost too strong, and even the 50fps PAL version made superguards much stronger, and that wasn't extending it by effectively an entire frame.
@@proking2354 Is understansable all that you said. When I meant that Some people tried to boicott the Game, is to jump from comment to comment explaining why the remake is inferior and we shouldn't buy It and better use Yuzu, which probably is gonna support this game on 60 FPS. And of course if the response of calling It out is "Duh, should had made a better work then" is very frustating to see, because thats a full remake. Maybe the concept of "boycott" the Game could be diferent, but I actually consider It very frustranting to see those things regardless. The superguard window I Heard to last 2 frames, or on 60FPS, a frame more, which is 0.067 seconds compared to the 0.05 seconds of the original time window. We have to wait how that can affect the original really, is hard to imagine like that. The main block window seen to be expanded just like the Modern Paper Marios. And for BiS, I Heard a lot of criticism and Part (it has more issues as you might know) of It was actually the 30 FPS, but I think that the case that game was more egregious as we came from a Game that went to 60 FPS ,no sluttering ,and no real graphical improvements that could make It more demanding, apart of the 3D Fights, probably because this Game was really rushed on a final attempt to stand up again, really sad. Regardless, I feel that they are very diferent escenarios and a comparison can be hard to make here.
Super guards used to have a 3 frame window, so the game is going to play differently if they change it to 1/30th of a second or 2/30ths, which they'll probably do the later unless the allow between frame inputs. If I'm being honest the only time I've even heard this debate I didn't remember that the original ran in 60, so I thought it was silly. But the only concern I have with this change is gameplay, because frames matter a lot for paper Mario. Like, is the simplifier going to effect 1/4 of a frame for super guards? or is it going to be better than the original's.
I think if it ran at 30fps AND had many other "downgrades" it would be a big issue. But there is so many improvements here and to be honest, I didn't even know the original ran at 60fps. If I don't notice, I don't care.
People would complain if they just did a remaster with minor enhancements and no downgrades, labeling it as a cheap cash grab that Nintendo knows Paper Mario fans will eat up. People complain about “censorship” but people will also complain if they uncensor Vivian. Others will complain if they leave Vivian censored. Apparently some people are complaining about the removal of the dead toad thing in rogue port, even though that was already removed in non-Japanese versions of the original. You can’t please everyone no matter what you do.
You are completely right in that this is only an issue because the original ran at 60, but that is what inheritly makes the issue worse for a lot of us. My thing is, It is inheritly a downgrade, and no matter how much people or devs will claim otherwise, I don't think it's excuseable for a Gamecube game with a (beautiful) new look to be running worse on infinitely more powerful hardware. I don't think a game with the gall to not even call itself a remake or remaster, literally just the title of the original game, should have ANYTHING inferior to the original in it. People don't see frame rate differences the same as others, and that's perfectly valid. Anyone who didn't even notice the original was 60 is not being stupid or blind, it's purely an eye/brain thing. But as someone whose accutely aware of it, its a downgrade. Period. Objectively. I don't care for a second if the game is made from the ground up or if its a fresh coat of paint, this is a game whose areas are divided up into extremely small loading zones, absolutely TINY areas that I guarentee will not be that taxing. The enviornments in this game are not even REMOTELY close to the size and scope of Color Splash and Orgami King, and it is not constantly being loaded in in real time. All of the points you bring up are just as much conjecture about how it "had to be 30". ALL OF THAT BEING SAID. I can deal with it. Despite the wall of text, I'm mostly over it, the game will play fine and it's still goregous AND my favorite game of all time, I'm going to love it. But I am absolutely sick of people treating this like it was unavoidable when I guarentee you there will be a console compatable 60fps patch for homebrew on week 1 that will be nearly flawless. Id bet money on it. It has happened plenty of times already.
As long as strict timings like parry are similar that should be fine to me. In the original, parries are a 3 frames window at 60fps, so something like a 2 (longer) frames window in the remake could work well. It would be basically the same as as 4 frames window at 60fps, so slightly easier than the original but not too much. It also depends on how readable some attacks become at the new framerate, the additional input delay that could result from 30fps, and how much they've tweaked stuff in general.
@@Linkenfant The input delay is something I don't get, but it's not because of the framerate. Power Lift is still just as fast and responsive as the original. Action commands as a whole work mostly well, it's the menu selections that are slow.
When you say to blame the Switch, that isn't the case either. The biggest bottleneck in the Switch is by far the RAM speed. The CPU, GPU, and storage are all perfectly acceptable. If you overclock the RAM to 1862MHz, Tears of the Kingdom runs at a locked 30, instead of dipping and spinning like a drunken ballerina whenever you try to use Ultrahand. But, years ago, Nintendo updated the software development kit, removing the ability to overclock, instead favoring their own Boost Mode(TM) that doesn't touch the RAM speed. The Switch is plenty capable, Nintendo just won't let devs use the full capabilities of the hardware. Now to be clear, the reason they probably did this is because 1% of 1% of OLD Switch models (only the old ones, pre-battery boost) have a *small chance* to have the RAM fail if you boost it to 1862MHz or higher. But in fairness, the liklihood of this happening is so low that it's not worth cutting performance over. At worst, they would have to replace a couple thousand Switches, out of over 100 million already sold, and billions in profit since. They're so paranoid that a tiny number of Switches might need repaired that they're willing to drag down everyone else's resources for development and therefore everyone else's gaming experience. Only those of us with a hacked Switch are lucky enough to be able to make our games run better on our own. Everyone else, all the customers following the rules, don't get this benefit, and it sucks. It really annoyed me in Link's Awakening. That blur around the edges of the screen that makes it harder to see? Well it also puts strain on the framerate too. The performance is better without it. It looks bad and it hurts the smoothness of the experience too. It's such a baffling, annoying decision. Yet, with my hacked Switch, I can just remove that. I don't see why Nintendo couldn't just give us an option in the settings that's labeled "Performance mode" and describe it as higher performance in exchange for less battery life. In the dock, the battery is irrelevant anyway.
There not doing it cause they dispise there fan base, or wish ill will against them. Its just the switch is very very very weak so they did there best. I respect it.
They're just not stupid. They know there fan base is mainly 10 to 12 year olds. They simply don't notice the frame rate. Heck they haven't hit pubirty yet.
Alot of children make the little tablet thier entire life. So Nintendo knows they dont care. If they made consoles for teens and adults boy you'd get some quality out Nintendo
I'd be interested to hear from the game's developers on this one, rather than hearing folks on the outside speculating about it... When I do game dev, I try to keep everything as efficient as possible to maintain that 60 FPS frame rate. Sometimes it surprises me how much can be going on without dropping a frame, and I think shaders are the biggest culprit for demanding processing power. Shader code is wizardry. If you don't understand everything about how it works, you effectively don't understand it at all. It's one of the biggest points where I'm lacking personally, but we work with what we have. Anything else, it's a lot of fun to build code with maximum efficiency in mind to get as much as we can out of it without slowing it down. Some out of the box thinking can lead to some crazy results that work really smoothly. But I think what bothers me more than missing the 60 FPS rate is people justifying it as not being bad or as looking better this way. This usually feels like coping, and I've seen friends caught in hypocrisy when modders figure out how to unlock the frame rate, and they absolutely drool over the new result despite praising the lower frame rate beforehand. A stilted frame rate does not look better. It's a cost being paid, not an improvement being made. I don't like when people dress it up like it improves the experience just because they want to be "right" and hold moral high ground over people who don't like that compromise.
i mean i will personally say, whenever i see mods that make botw/totk run at 60 fps the smoothness looks "off" to me, like i find it to make the whole world of the game look a bit more fake somehow because i guess the extra frames leave less room for the imagination to fill in movement with the masking effect so it somewhat breaks the illusion of the like "animated" art style (to me personally) so for that reason i would at least myself say i think there's definitely a time and place for certain choices to be made differently
@@Envy_May I think I get you. I can imagine that being because you're used to seeing the game at its original frame rate, or possibly because it was built with that lower frame rate, and just bumping up the limit means the frame-by-frame calculations aren't changing to match. I like the way it looks more, but you're not imagining what you're seeing.
Although not one of the TTYD developers, the Director for Bayonetta Origins made a thread on Twitter empathizing with the TTYD developers saying that it was extremely difficult to get the game to run at a stable 60fps on the Switch without significant frame drops. They only had two options to choose from: either unlock the frame rate but it would frequently drop between 30~50fps or lock the frame rate at a stable 30fps and they chose the latter. The only way they would have been able to run the game at a stable 60fps is by cutting down on the post-processing effects, which they did not want to compromise on just to hit a stable 60fps as they had a specific art style in mind for the game.
Obviously it wont be a big deal to you or most existing fans but it will turn new folks away like Nintendo always does with underperforming console specs
It's definitely only an issue because of the comparison to the original. Whenever there's a remake/remaster, I tend to wish for it to be the definitive version so that it can just replace the original. I want it to be straight-up better, not "generally better" but with an asterisk. That said, I totally understand that a remake with zero compromises isn't always possible. Remakes almost always have at least one thing in them that's worse than the original. I'm not really upset about 30 fps here. A high frame rate in a game like this isn't a super important anyway, and the game overall looks fantastic.
Imagine if Nintendo added a “performance mode” and it was just the original game.
That'd legit be hilarious. I mean I'm still not buying the remake because of the censorship, but I have the original on Steam Deck and that's more than good enough for me.
@@megaman37456Censorship?
@@megaman37456 what censorship
@@megaman37456What censorship? I thought the only censorship was how they rewrote things with Vivian in the original USA version, which it seems like they fixed in the new one.
@@oasis9009 Yep, the only shown instance so far is the Goomba trio in the sewers dialogue is completely different from the original game, and if that's changed I'm willing to bet they bastardized the entire script.
The past 3 Paper Mario games were 30fps and I never even noticed
Paper terraria when
This ain't terraria...
Plus it just feels better I think. A paper themed game doesn't need to feel super smooth, it's supposed to be like paper, 30 is honestly fine
I agree completely. Also I love your vids.
@@splatoonshorts 30fps is more cinematic............
I'm so happy that this is the argument we're having rather than "will Paper Mario ever be good again"
True.
Trading a argument for a debate instead?
seems legit👌
That hasn't gone away everyone's still thinking about it...especially with this remake giving people hope lol. Myself included.
Positive vibes energy and thoughts 🫶🏼
Agreed
i know people generally agree it's not a huge problem, but one of the things that always struck me whenever I looked back at TTYD is just how smooth it plays. the 60 FPS really adds a lot to the presentation.
I agree completely. Lots of people are saying that 60fps doesn't matter for the type of game that it is, but I really think 60fps added a LOT to the visual aesthetic of TTYD. That coupled with bizarre visual changes, mainly overly reflective surfaces, have completely put me off this new version.
@@FirstRecords204 Yeah I really love how smooth the title screen in the original is. It's almost like it's a completely static image with 0 movement whatsoever.
10:53 actually, it does happen at least once per chapter, I’d say it was a much more prominent focus than people perceive. Beyond the obvious crowd during battles, here’s a list of some, MAJOR SPOILERS AHEAD:
Prologue: X-Nauts
Ch1: Fuzzies and Dull Bones
Ch2: Punies
Ch3: Glitzville Crowds
Ch4: Boos in the steeple and the chest
Ch5: Freeing the roads
Ch6: Smorgs
Ch7: Bob-omb cannon scene
Ch8: Dry Bones
I’m forgetting plenty, but yeah, MANY instances! Perhaps unorthodox, but this is like a “gimmick” with TTYD, like Color Splash’s paint and TOK Origami
And at least for the prologue one, it seems they actually fixed some frame rate issue in the remake, as in the earlier trailer that scene still had frame drops. However, looking at the recent footage, there is none at all.
Im glad an OG isbpointing this out.
The whole having 100+ npcs on screen was a selling point of the GC back in the day!
This wasn't just a gimmick but also a result of the consoles capabilities being experimented with
And a mostly-non-Mario example: In Smash Bros. 4 3DS, one of the sacrifices made to get that game running at 60fps was making the Assist Trophies' animations 30fps.
Yeah, the Switch may be more powerful than that, but it's still ultimately a tablet/laptop.
...isn't game development F̶̰̦͆Ư̷̢̗N̷͍̙͋́!?
I didn't realize the first one ran at sixty
That’s because it dropped frames a lot of the time haha
I'd honestly like consistency so this is great
well back then maybe you just didnt know the difference but in 2024 this remake should have been a easy homerun..
@@joshuasouthwick6808 I value a consistent 30fps over an inconsistent 60fps
@variumi actually it's been mentioned that the frames drop even at 30 fps but it does seem to be in the same areas where it frame drops in the same areas it did in the original game either way it probably won't bother me too much.
Me: “i dont understand video game development”
Arlo: “its made with VOODOO MAGIC”
Never change.
I don’t understand game development either but as someone who owned a GameCube. Metroid prime is voodoo magic.
Your comment had exactly 64 likes when I looked at it. In fact I’ve seen seeing quite a few comments at 64 likes lately. What is this voodoo magic?
As a hobbyist game dev, I can ashore you we do not do magic and are not a cult
@@Leefree09 Good job, fellow follower. We must keep it a secret.
@@Quartz512_ Yes Yes indeed fellow follower. they may not know our power.
I also think it's worth pointing out that the devs of the Metroid Prime Remastered have stated that they had to cut some of the fancier effects to keep it at 60. I don't remember all of the interview but I specifically remember that they said that's why they cut the real time lighting caused by Samus' weapons in the remaster.
And this is fine. I would take whatever cuts are necessary to not cut the frame rate in half from what it was 2 decades ago on much weaker hardware.
And id rather have 30 fps with some cooler effects. @LegitMLG360noscoper
@@gospelarchain4504then emulate the GameCube version on dolphin bud
@@gospelarchain4504 "and thus all negotiations broke down and the comment section was thrown into a state of mild bickering."
@@gospelarchain4504 that's great. that's why pc gaming is just better.
for some reason console games are still pretty allergic to giving people options
Arlo you have been crushing it with this second channel - keep up the fantastic work!!
Everyone is talking about how the game is 30 fps, but no one is talking about partners actually being able to turn around and not just stare at the screen(Bowser too)
I'll be honest, if you hadn't told me that there was a framerate difference between the old and the new game, I doubt I would have noticed it playing. I still don't see it even now that I know.
that's because it's being created with the limitation of 30 FPS in mind. Allowing them to easily hide certain things.
You are blind
@@sinisis_sinisis Maybe, but honestly, I've never cared whether a game played at 60 frames per second or 30 frames per second. As long as it wasn't 30 seconds per frame, like what happened during a playthrough of Skyrim once, I'm happy.
@@beterbomen I'm blind too because I don't notice either lol. And ignorance is bliss I guess because worrying about FPS sounds absolutely miserable
@@Fisto64 only reason to worry about the framerate, if you played PVP games like League of Legends, Counter Strike or games that rely on your inputs like fighting games (Streetfighter, Mortal Kombat), platformers with challenging layouts etc.
But complaing that Paper Mario doesn't have it is quite weird. You fight in a turn-based RPG with a few action commands that probably are adjusted to the framerate anyways, there is mostly puzzles to solve that don't need high framerates, cause you never need to do precise platforming etc.
Butternut Squash? Yes Please!
Yeah, but Solid Snake!
Wrongzo
🧈 🥜
Silver bells in the lane!!
I honestly don’t think the vast majority of people (including me) even noticed or cared until something important brought it to people’s attention.
True, but to those people that are complaining, they should take action and stand their ground on what they believe to be a legitimate issue by voting with their wallet.
@@mihd9874 it is definetly their right, but if we always stand our ground for minor Things , no game will sell a Million ever again, and Gaming could be Finished again, like in the Atari Days.
@@herrzeiens3503 keep licking that boot lol
@@herrzeiens3503I think the middle ground is to support the game and deliver feedback. I mean that works from time to time but most effective for products you care for.
@@herrzeiens3503 Hahahahaha! oh man, the notion that gaming would be finished if no game ever sold over a million ever again that's a good one buddy. Maybe AAA would be finished but I only consider that a good thing.
I don't think people are angry that this game is ruining at 30fps, I think it's a sentiment that's been boiling over for a long time, and it's that ANY game at this day and age, runs at 30fps and CAN'T hit a consistent 60fps. I feel like this point is kinda mute though when you're referring to the Switch. An almost 10 year old piece of hardware that was running on 5 year old hardware when it released. The fact that it even DOES the things it does with the technology that it has is straight up bonkers.
I wish more people would see the *novelty* of what you just said.
Watching the switch play certain games, Its like getting a calculater to cook you a 5 star meal.
That is in it's own right rather impressive, despite the tech hurdles it faces. 🤷♀️
@@GamesareJoy You saw it, that counts lol I can't wait to see what kind of black magic devs can cook up with the switch's successor.
The fact that it’s still not ultra common for games to hit steady 60fps demonstrates that wanting all of them to is an expectation problem.
@@GamesareJoy switch has been out for almost 10 years, nothing is novel about it anymore
Everyone talking like this game is a remaster when its in fact a remake from the ground up
I'm watching all this footage in the background and I have come to the conclusion that 30fps is fine.
watching 30 fps and playing 30 fps are 2 very differnt things
@@callumglowacki7333In case It worried you, for what Ive seen, is that action commands are probably gonna be more input friendly just as the newer games, so a lower framerate wouldn't be that much of a deal.
@@callumglowacki7333and as someone who's played a lot of 30fps games
it's fine.
@@JoseViktor4099plus it’s a turn based rpg. If this were an action playformer, shooter or a fighting game I could totally understand the grievances. But what part of this game absolutely demands more than 30fps?
As we know, game feel can be judged by watching a video. I am very smart.
I believe that Masahiro Sakurai stated in a TH-cam video on his channel that while 60 FPS is preferred, most developers consider 30 FPS to be acceptable as well. I'm with that mentality. Yes, I'd prefer 60 FPS, but a 30 FPS framerate doesn't make a game completely unplayable garbage.
Fighting Games
Fr the only time I actually care about high framerates are in games that need it, like fighting amd rhythm games
@@GameFreak64101 Talking about video games in general
Of course, if frame-perfect inputs are a fundamental part of the experience, getting as high of an fps as possible would be preferable, however that isn’t the case for the vast, vast majority of games out there
Depends on the game but... Paper Mario?
I have never seen the difference. Everyone’s like “Oh, this is 30 FPS? That sucks man!!” Meanwhile I’m here like “THEY LOOK THE EXACT SAME! ARGUE ABOUT SOMETHING MEANINGFUL!!”
I'm ok with 30 fps - that said I'm hoping the Switch 2 has some kind of frame boost for OG Switch games, kinda like the new3DS did for games like Pokemon SuMo
Absolutely! That's my dream scenario. Hopefully Nintendo doesn't do anything stupid with their next system!
Yeah, same here.
You know if they didnt youd bend over and be okay with it too
That would be so cool. A lot of games would benefit from it, like TOTK or Xenoblade 3.
@@ridgenyan-botxv367 TOTK looks really good at 60fps
It's probably because of the TV I played it on, but I do remember some instances where the gamecube version dropped below 60 frames for a bit. It's NOT game-ruining, but if this remake is at 30 fps to keep it stable, I'm totally cool with it.
I'm dissapointed to see the framerate cut, but not outraged.
As long as its a solid 30 I don't care. Its going to be really disappointing if it hits heavy lag moments, particularly if it hurts the timing based fighting. Even if the original ran at 30fps, I would have expected that a pretty basic remake made with technology that is decades newer would be able to sustain what many consider to be the bare minimum for console based gaming
Apparently it is a solid 30 according to reviews, so that’s nice
Considering it will be 30 I hope they make the input timing window to be a little longer than the original. After all Nintendo has been making games easier for the casual audience.
According to reviews it is consistent, however there is evidence of very specific moments having frame rate drops. It’s hard to say how this’ll affect gameplay yet but, if it’s by a lot even if that’s just in those very specific moments… Well, then you have my concern for how this was coded specifically.
@@rezahydraProbably cutscenes so it should be fine.
@@rezahydraProbably cutscenes so it should be fine.
Imagine being part of the movement to get a remaster, getting this wonderful remake instead, and then boycotting it over the frame rate.
I REALLY hope there aren’t too many people doing this.
Hmmm yea I think I will just pirate and emulate it. I bet I can make it 120 fps on my pc. Stupid slow ass switch (ttyd is my favorite game of all time)
People are going to boycott it becayse of the censorship, the frames are small time now
Obviously you don’t since you don’t want to support the game frame rate doesn’t matter
@joeykeilholz925 can you like not? You're the reason we aren't ever getting another Paper Mario game like TTYD
Emulate it all you want but all I ask is to not act like a child and pirate the game outright smh
Edit: Just so I'm clear, buy the game first before you Emulate it otherwise you're ruining it for all of us when you pirate TTYD
@@shadexao what you said doesnt make sense. You cant emulate it without pirating it.
Paper Mario fans: Waahaah, but I don't like Paper Mario TTYD remake!
Nintendo: _THEN WHY DID YOU ASK FOR IT?_
(SpongeBob reference)
I wont lie that it being 30 fps is the ONLY gripe ive had with the remake so far. But at the end of the day, its just that: a gripe. Definitely not a deal breaker for me, and im still going to enjoy the crap out of this. Im just so thankful they actually remade this game! It looks really beautiful
Imo they ruined the music
Quit making excuses for Nintendo to put out underpowered hardware
@@TheVulgarPeasant the switch is a console from 2017.
@@dimagi7864they literally have a badge 20 minutes into the game that lets you swap the music… you people are so insanely entitled holy hell.
@@pablojams5152 I agree, altho the battle sfx doesn't change and i also wish I could choose per track
Devs reduce the framerate to 30 and increase fidelity = "Game runs like shit; Not buying"
Devs increase the framerate to 60 and decrease fidelity = "Game looks like shit; Not buying"
Can't please everyone :(
@@SilverRath21helldivers 2 literally said that on their website
BRUH FR
People are stupid and will refuse to buy/support something for the flimsiest reasons, after all.
Nah, I’ll sacrifice fidelity to hit 60fps. Re4 on PS5 I don’t even notice or care about 4K.
Another balanced perspective from Arlo, as always.
Totally understand that people have different priorities regarding games. But if anyone denies themselves the experience of playing a great, special game because it runs at 30FPS and not 60-- that's just unfortunate for them.
Yeah, but when they demonize Nintendo and bully anyone who wants to legally buy this game, that's unfortunate for everyone!
@@videogollumerthe bullying people for not pirating is the weirdest shit ever 😂 and from what I can see it's mostly people just wanting an excuse to not pay for a game. When totk was shown to be 70, a whole wave of people were acting like the morally right thing to do was to pirate
@@Daft0Cean968 Oh, it gets worse. There are some people announcing that they're going to pirate the game because it's "woke".
Worth mentioning that even while the metroid prime remake was 60 fps, it was 900p resolution
This is also 900p
Nintendo Switch is just full of compromises left and right.
Metroid prime (switch) is a remaster not a remake dude
Isnt it 1080p? Looks pretty crisp to me@LegitMLG360noscoper
@@realgamer3948call it whatever makes you happy, dude.
So glad you made this video. Commenting for engagement, I want more ppl to see it
For me, I don't really care that much about a game's framerate, as long as the framerate is stable.
The wow factor of a lot of sprites wasn't "only in a few scenes" it was in every battle. The big argument for the game cube as a whole, and the games that showed off it's power explicitly was we measure active models in the hundreds" it is why you can have 100 pickmin, several enemies and a captain all fighting in an area that's not just a white void. For sunshine it was water physics, for Luigi's mansion it was particle effects, for ttyd it was the audience, the mobs and the origami enemies like hook tail.
I do remember really loving how responsive and snappy the original TTYD felt when playing - I just didn't know that 60 fps was a part of that back then. It really felt like I had to nail some of the harder action commands such as Power Bounce or Superguard perfectly on just the right instant, and that instant felt perfectly tied to the action taking place on screen. Nailing a critical Superguard or getting a rediculous Power Bounce felt SO SATISFYING as a result. I don't remember a single moment feeling like I was 100% sure I nailed an action command that had been unsuccessful, and that there must desync between the visuals and what the game was asking me.
Of course, I didn't understand the concept of FPS at all, let alone that Superguards were difficult because they demanded a 3 frame window input, compared to an 8 frame window for regular guards. I didn't understand that part of that snappy feeling was incredible work done reducing input lag between the controller and my old CRT display, and I didn't understand how having 60 FPS allowed the devs to finely tune the timing of what they wanted the player to do and when. I didn't need to know all of that, it just felt responsive and smooth - the layer between the game and me slid away, and it was so easy to feel immersed.
The thing is, I also understand that this game runs on a fundamentally different platform. My old GC controller was wired, the video output was analog, and the CRT television had no middle processing needed to convert the signal into a display. The Switch has digital controllers that run on Bluetooth, the video output is digital, and they can't control the degree of input lag on a player's potentially shitty Walmart Black Friday TV. 60 FPS is a smaller slice of that original TTYD feel compared to the rest of that combined. So long as the devs have paid close attention to the moment-to-moment feel of the game and rebalanced the action commands to tie what's happening on screen to my controller, without sacrificing that brutally difficult skill ceiling that felt so rewarding, I'll be a happy gamer.
It's really not, the consciously chose to make the menus that speed in the original. In the remake it's faster using Veil in the overworld.
Both N64 Zeldas ran at 30fps on the pause menus and 60fps on the file select screen, but Majora's Mask was faster and snappier in both areas.
IMO this is a great example of a late switch era game that's releasing on the base switch buts its true potential will be on Switch 2 (Totk, Pikmin 4, most 3rd parties, etc)
30fps is NOT the true potential of TTYD. It’s not MEANT to run at 60! There are so many reasons behind such a thing, including artistic choice. TTYD could easily run at 60fps, but the devs didn’t want it to - and that’s okay! Geez!
@@RaFaPilgrim if 30 fps isn't ttyd's "true potential", how can it be a artistic choice?
No game when given the option to run at 60fps will not utilize it, the switch just can't handle the remake at 60, and that's ok.
@@DualFace_1 The Switch can handle the remake at 60 FPS the devs just chose not to because the higher ups don't want old paper mario to make a comeback.
@@megaman37456 I think it's more likely that the budget wasn't high enough to give the devs time to battle everything required to get consistent 60 FPS.
@@megaman37456 Are you really trying to assume they had a choice when they most likely did not?
I did appreciate what you shared, Arlo, and I think you made a good point about how this particular debate stems from the comparison to the original. I have noticed the difference between the frame rates, but to be honest, I have barely cared. The game is a good game that is fun and runs well. Plus, having played most of the game now, they did SO much to improve gameplay, such as the warp pipe system, the Partner Ring for easier switching of partners, and the increased coin limit. To me, everything about this version is better except the frame rate, and I am almost completely unconcerned about the frame rate. I think the game looks great.
I think more of what frustrates me is the general sense of ingratitude I seem to see in a lot of the gaming community. That certainly doesn't mean game developers should do whatever and not care about quality, I'm not blindly defending game developers. But in general, I get the sense that people tie so much of their happiness and fulfillment in games that anything less than exactly what they want is an assault on them, rather than navigating minor disappointments knowing that life is much more than games and, frankly, happiness. So to me, it matters a little bit how you come to your conclusions, because you actually get a window into your priorities in a much deeper way than mere game preferences. Then again, this observation might come from the disproportionate amount of input from the vocal complainers, so it may not be quite as prevalent as it seems. I don't know. Just observations from some guy/
Thanks for making this video and sharing your thoughts. Glad to listen and to see how you try and navigate a touchy topic like this with grace.
As someone who prefers 60fps and picks performance modes when available, I did not know the Switch version was 30FPS from the footage and wouldn't have known if I was never told. I also didn't know the GameCube version was 60FPS (which I've played!) so take that as you will.
it's not just that it runs at 30fps, it's that in the footage we've seen, the framerate is inconsistent. it chugs. and thats in the official footage! the footage they deemed to be the best!
The biggest reason people usually favor 60fps is because of input lag. Paper Mario doesn't exactly have the high-octane action where that kind of responsiveness is going to matter much.
While this is still sometimes true and may be for this game, developers have decoupled fps from the frequency inputs are being registered for awhile now. It's not a guarantee that every new game handles input this way, but a lot of games anymore run input polling on a separate thread and at a higher speed than the frame rate (like anywhere between 60 to 1000 times per second), which keeps things responsive even in lower fps games or during lag spikes.
If it actually made action commands easier to hit, higher frame rate would be really helpful.
@@TheUltimateRareand then people complain that’s it’s too easy. It’s a never ending cycle
Depends on how used to the original timing for perfect blocks you are... There actually are small intervals for those.
@@MidknightHour If this were the case for the remake... This would theoretically eliminate the need to adjust timing windows for action commands and super guards, right?
That'd be neat.
The best analogy I can think of is this: it's a classic car that has been beautifully restored, but there's a scratch in the paint.
More like beautifully restored, but it has less horse power in the engine. Takes a bit longer to get going compared to how it was before, but it still does the job.
Yeah more like wheel was removed
@@LegitMLG360noscoper you live in the comments or what bro? Ive seen you a couple of times now lol.
I do it as well, but zamn, at least I try to be positive, going on every comment to say something is bad is not healthy my guy.
@@LegitMLG360noscoper lol no
@@LegitMLG360noscoper????? You’re either trolling, or you’ve never seen a car before if you’re making a statement like that.
People love to complain.
I grew up with SMRPG and the original Paper Mario 64 and TTYD.
It looks better than ever.
I'm getting it.
I mean at the end of the day I'd prefer a smooth and stable 30 over a choppy and inconsistent 60FPS and that's for anything.
that motion smoothing tv effect is the woooorst
It's on my Grandma's 4k TV and I don't like it either. I'll stick with 1080p 24fps thanks
The original ran at 60 fps. But the original was also on game cube, which is plugged in to power all the time and battery life is not an issue. The switch can be played on the go, so battery life and overheating is definitely something they have to take into account. They could make two different modes, a performance 60 fps mode when the switch is docked, but that would mean (as someone pointed out) switch lite users would have a different experience from those with the regular switch.
That’s actually what they did for bowser’s fury. handheld runs at 30 while docked is 60.
The original isn't really relevant in terms of the technical reasons the remake runs at 30 instead of 60 like the original. The switch has a fixed amount of processing power in either mode, and games that fully use that do result in less battery life but they don't ever make it run in an unsafe way. When docked, the switch is more powerful but it needs to render at a higher resolution to get comparable image quality to handheld due to the bigger screen, so most games bump the resolution rather than framerate.
i think a big reason why some people are especially bothered by 30fps is the comparison videos between the original and footage of the remake. when you watch 30fps and 60fps footage simultaneously, the 30fps footage is noticeably choppy, even though it usually looks perfectly fine on its own. it’s really an unfortunate situation considering the remake looks wayyy better than the original visually in any context other than playing both games at the same time (in my opinion)
in fairness also the person in the switch trailer is walking lol
No matter how much you give people, they will always find something to complain about, no matter how insignificant or selfish.
Love the topic arlo channel, hearing more of your thoughts of things is always such a treat
I didn't even know the original was 60fps lmao
This is gonna be a long 23 days 😭
I just want to say that yeah, of course people are angry about it running at 30 because the original ran at 60.
Nobody cared with Color Splash or Origami King. Those were original games. The Thousand year Door is a remake. It‘s supposed to be an upgrade. Not a downgrade.
If they want me to pay full price for a polished up, two decade old game, the least I expect is for it to not run worse than the original did on the two decade old console.
Ok, but if you were ACTUALLY paying attention to the FULL SCOPE of the remake, you'd realize it IS an upgrade. Yes, the framerate is cut but:
1) the visuals/animations are massively improved.
2) they are addressing major issues like backtracking and fast travel
3) they've added multiple new NPCs and dialogue to help you at any turn (including helping you learn the new timings for action commands, the thing most affected by framerate.)
And more we might not even know yet. Acting as if the framerate, this ONE ASPECT, makes it a downgrade is absolutely absurd.
@@chibi2239 tf are you insinuating? That I didn’t pay attention because I do not like an objective downgrade from the two decade old version??
They can add as much as they want. That is still a downgrade. And after a game like Metroid Prime managed to run at 60, this game has no excuses.
So don’t make braindead assumptions about others with opinions you don’t like. The lower framerate is an objective downgrade. And no matter of you making up that I „didn’t actually pay attention to all the things they added“ is going to change that.
@@risingblur770 for the fact you seem THIS pissed and, again, it's like the only downgrade (IF that. I'd argue they built the remake around this lowered framerate) yes, I don't think you're really paying attention to anything BUT the framerate.
Also Prime remastered isn't the golden argument you think it is. If you ACTUALLY compare it to the GameCube version, you'd notice it got rid of/downgraded alot of the reflection effects. It had to be comprised too to run on switch.
@@chibi2239 ?
What makes you think I’m pissed? That I said „tf“?
Why should I be pissed about some random talking to another random in a comment section about the framerate of the remake of a children’s game? If anything, I just don’t like people making assumptions about me.
I am paying attention. And again, it is an objective downgrade. No matter how much you want to believe I am ignoring other things. 30 is a downgrade from 60.
Prime is the golden argument. It looks significantly better than the GameCube version. It is considered as one of the best looking games on the entire console. And it runs at 60. yeah, some reflections are less noticeable (which isn’t a downgrade but if anything an artstyle change, because the reflections are still there) but that is something I’m willing to pay for a stable 60fps. That‘s normally called optimization. And the game still looks significantly better than the original version. Which is why I used it as an example. Because I am seeing no reason to why a game like paper Mario, with it‘s very limited areas, can not reach the same framerate as the two decade old version on the two decade old console.
Sorry if I came off pissed. But maybe that’s just you making assumptions again lol.
@@risingblur770 Clearly you don't remember all the times the original lagged, or had low fps objects on the screen.
Metroid Prime Remastered barely looks any better than the original even with a side-by-side comparison and they had to remove effects to keep the framerate.
Or are games like Skyward Sword HD and Sonic Colors Ultimate "the standard" for re-releases?
it not being 60 isn't a deal breaker at all for me, but I'm a bit tired of people saying that it doesn't matter AT ALL. It definitely does, and I don't like pretending it doesn't.
Superguards are 3 fps in a 60 fps game. I've played a lot of both thousand year door, and pm64 mods that add superguards. The difference between 3 frame superguards at 60 FPS vs 1 or 2 frame superguards at 30 FPS is very very noticeable to me, and they don't feel as good imo.
Again its not a deal breaker, I'll still have plenty of fun with the game, but I wont lie it is a disappointment (also by no means am i calling the devs lazy, its a result of the switches nearly 8 year out dated hardware. I'm sure they did what they could)
It will run at 60 on a backwards compatible switch 2 (insane copium)
30 fps is...choppy? Geez, I like video games, but I do not understand gamers.
It's because most of them have 0 understanding of game development yet talk like they do because they read some stuff on the internet.
This reminds me of that one guy who was saying that making a console that doesn't run at 4K 60fps minimum was literally criminal at this point, and anyone who replied saying they didn't mind 30fps were all victims of Nintendo's heinous penny-pinching agenda.
I mean, there's a middle ground here. When Nintendo created the Switch, they used already dated parts from Nvidia because they were so cheap. The switch is powered by what is essentially a cell phone processor from 8 years ago. And they did ALL that to save like $25 on a unit. Would you NOT spend 25 extra bucks on the switch to have it be twice as fast? Because that's what Nintendo did.
@@nuggyfresh6430eight years ago from *today*? Or eight years ago by the time the switch released? Because eight years ago from today would be 2016, and that was quite literally only one year before the switch released. Please make this clarification, because the lack of clarification makes it seem like you’re telling a half-truth to make the switch seem worse than it actually is.
Most turn base RPG don't even run at 60 FPS because it isn't necesssary.
So we have controversy around catcalling Goombas and the frame rate and there’s still 3 weeks til the release of the game.
“All opinions are valid 🥰✨” mf’s when I show them the Paper Mario community:
This and the Sonic community lol
@@Glitchyy07 Not to mention the Pokemon community?
The Splatoon community:
@@PenguinXD4 I thought the splatoon community was pretty tame for the most part, though I guess I’m not heavily into it
All genders are valid except paper!
This game came out in like 2004. I played it on an old fat back tv set like many people did. Did those things even output 60fps? I'd venture a guess that very few people who played the original actually even played at that high frame rate.
Well i looked it up and it turns out old tvs did run at 60hz. So i guess we were playing with that framerate. Huh.
😢As an Irish man who loves muppets and nintendo, Arlo has finally completed the trifecta by spwaking Gaelic. Never thought id hear arlo try to say Tír na nÓg (land of the young) 🌱
What most people don't understand with how the GameCube works since most people know it from emulation or Wii on modern TVs, but the GameCube was designed to work with CRT TVs at 480i (interlaced). Each frame only gets half the screen data (even scanlines or odd scanlines with each frame). So while it does render 60 frames per second, if you account for COMPLETE frames (even and odd scanlines included), it runs at 30 FPS. So I think there is ultimately little difference in framerates between a 1080p 30 fps game and a 480i 60 fps game.
This is a bullshit explanation. The Switch is fully capable of outputting at 60fps. Mario Odyssey, Kirby's Return to Dream Land Deluxe, Metroid Prime Remastered, and Skyward Sword HD all run at 60fps on Switch in both handheld and docked mode.
There's no excuse here for a remake of a 20+ year old game to run at half the framerate of the original.
@llaffer this is wrong for two reasons. most if not all GameCube games can run 480p so you can get a full “60fps”, pmtyd is one of these games. 60 fields per second still means that game logic runs a 60 times a second which is very important with a game that requires you to time your attacks and defense.
That is not how things work at all. The amount of absolutely garbage cope coming from Nintendo fans on this...
I don't use twitter, so I didn't know this was a controversy, *but* I think it has less to do with 30FPS being a deal breaker for this game and more to do with pent up frustration about the switch itself. It was outdated on release, and its been 7 years. Switch owners are sick of having to deal with increasingly subpar performance. No other modern platform would be stuck running this at 30FPS.
And knowing a new console will be out in a year with potential abilities to increase resolution and frame rate for switch titles. They are treating ttyd like filler content.
God you people need to touch grass
Ha yes the magical console that hasn’t even been announced yet that you people ar convinced is being made
Yep and even voicing stuff like this invites aggression from Nintendo fans who get angry when anyone even mentions how underpowered the Switch is.
@@stevenhedge2850 Ah yes, because if everybody doesn't know something is being made from the moment it's conceived it obviously doesn't exist and we should write off and ignore any and all corroborating evidence of it existing from completely unrelated sources who have no incentive to lie but are also all evil misinformation spreading grifters who all want to take your money.
GUYS, I SWEAR THEY'RE NOT WORKING ON SWITCH 2! I'M THE SANE ONE HERE! YOU GOTTA BELIEVE ME!
Being totally honest... I have never been able to tell the difference between 30 and 60 fps... so when the big debates happen I end up feeling stupid just because I don't see the difference...
You don't have to lie, the difference in appearance and feel is massive, you just get used to it and then go back to 30 and it feels like lag, you have to get used to it all over again
@@petebagwell6666 if I’m playing a 60fps game that lags and drops to 30, then yeah, I notice it. But if I’m playing a game made in completely 30fps, especially an RPG, I probably won’t notice it. I didn’t notice it while playing Origami King. This is actually my first time learning that game was in 30fps!
@@Mr_Mimestamp Most people can effortlessly tell the difference between a Windows freakin desktop with icons on it at 60 fps vs 30 because of how obviously smoother the mouse is. I will admit though, life would be a bit easier if no one cared about fps or could even tell. That's for sure.
The difference between 30 fps and 60 fps is only really noticeable in real time action games.
You will notice if there is a frame drop.
If the whole game is 30 fps you will see nothing because it is consistent the whole game.
To the people saying they won’t buy thousand year door because of the fps, hope you enjoy origami king 2. Cause that’s what Nintendo will give us if this game sells poorly.
And then Origami King will come with smooth cinematic...~15 fps sir...! And then i want to see your face!
The 30 fps wasn't a deal breaker for me. My input timings are a bit off, but I'm overcoming that.
Damn dude I gotta stay away from this channel's comment sections. I always end up posting a heated comment and then deleting it.
My only leftover thought is you are wrong about someone not trying to rip away our 60fps. That would be Nintendo. Like actual Nintendo. The ones that decided to put 20 features into the Joycons that have never been used but significantly increased console cost. So they couldn't afford to give it better hardware. And the joycons ended up being partly made of cheap parts that broke easily through regular use.
The devs at Nintendo could have it all. All the fancy graphics, stable framerate, fast loading. But not with the Switch. Because Nintendo didn't prioritize giving their devs room to create. Let's hope that changes in the future.
So thank you to the Dev team for working hard to give us a great game despite the hurdles.
The only time I ever think about frame rate is when it lags or is inconsistent. I personally cannot even tell the difference between 30 and 60 fps unless the same footage is side by side one 30 and one 60 and EVEN THEN I have a hard time. I just don't get it man
Massive skill issue.
You may have eye issues. It’s very obvious a difference for normal people
Dude get your eyes checked
It’s a world of difference. Literally the same distance between a jpg and a 30fps game.
Most people who claim they can’t see 60 are either liars or are using a cable from the 90s that can’t handle 60fps data.
@@MysteriousStranger50
Most people that say they “get headaches” looking at something that is 30fps or think it looks like a slide show are also liars.
It’s a placebo.
There is a difference, but what matters is if it’s consistent and the game being made around the framerate in mind.
@@MysteriousStranger50 Smh there's more of a visual difference between 20 and 30fps, than there is 30 and 60
The comment below is a copy/paste of an essay length comment I posted on another video.
I think the only reason people are complaining about a switch game running at 30FPS in the year 2024 is because it’s a remake of a 20 year old game that ran at 60. I’ve heard people say something like, “If games like Super Mario Odyssey can run at 60FPS, why can’t TTYD, a remake of a 20 year old game that ran at that frame rate?”, trying to argue that the switch is totally capable of doing such a thing. Now I’m no expert on making games, but I’m pretty sure that there’s more things affecting a game’s performance than just how good it looks graphically. Also, Mario Odyssey and Paper Mario are two very different types of games, and they have very different art styles. Again I’m no game maker expert so I don’t know how these differences in art style, game mechanics and behind the scenes processes affect performance, but it’s something to think about right?
Going back to the point in my first statement… has anyone ever complained about the frame rate in Origami King, like ever. People have said many things about that game, but as far as I can tell, it’s frame rate has never been discussed by either fans or detractors. Historically speaking, 30 FPS in a Paper Mario game has never been an issue for anyone as far as I can tell.
Now, to be fair to the current TTYD remake detractors, I think some people are legitimately worried about how it’ll feel to go from playing a 60FPS game to a 30FPS version of the same game. How will it affect the timing of action commands? See, the thing about Origami King is that even though it is an installment in the Paper Mario series, it’s also an entirely new game so there’s nothing to compare it to directly in those regards. But when TTYD fans play the remake, they’ll be traversing the same map, facing the same enemies, using the same attacks, and defending against the same enemy attacks.The concern now comes from how will it feel in this remake to perform the same actions in the remake vs the original? I mean, it’s gonna mess with your muscle memory for sure and you’ll have to remaster some of those tougher more advanced moves. But I think the real concern is even after you get used to everything, will the lower frame rate still make the gameplay feel inferior to the original? Though it’s worth noting that since this is in fact a remake (not a port), it’s gonna feel different to some extent even if the FPS matches the OG. But I guess the FPS is a major factor in the overall feel too.
Overall, I think this is a valid concern. The only way to know for sure is to try the game yourself.
However, I’ve also seen people that are like, “A remake of a 20 year old game that ran at 60FPS now running at 30FPS? UnACCEPTABLE? Nintendo lazy!”, and go off of that principle alone without taking into account how much it’ll actually affect the game, how many improvements there are, or without taking into consideration the hardware it’s running on. The switch is a very weak console for today’s standards, and since it’s a portable, battery life is something they need to take into account as well.
Okay I’m gonna drop my attempts at having an aura of objectivity for a second in order to say this: Anyone who thinks this remake is “lazy”… Bruh. You gotta be joking, THIS remake. just because of a lower frame rate? Ur silly. Silly goose.
Ok with that out of my system, I feel like when it comes to people with that mentality, their motivations for not supporting the TTYD remake are less about the individual game, and more of a statement about not supporting lazy cash-grab ports/remakes in general. Companies (including Nintendo) have been getting away with charging AAA price for these things for years, so now when these people see just one lacking aspect of a re-release be revealed, they’re immediately like “Nope. Not supporting this BS. Not falling for it. You can do better.”
These are all great points
The fact that this debate even exists is just sad.
I been dumping my games and playing them on Ryujinx with a performance patch mod and It's impressive how a boost in fps can make a game feel a lot more modern. Recently finished Princess Peach Showtime and TLoZ Link's Awakening Remake. even in a lower res the art style and fps boost help these games feel on par with the other current gen consoles. Both of these games are perfectly playable at 30fps but for me there is no arguing how gorgeous Nintendo games look at 60+ fps.
This entire discussion of the frame rate left me with more questions...
I refuse to take a side, i just wanna play the game.
I swear people are so picky about Video Games.
True Paper Mario fans understand that this game is a fucking MIRACLE game, the fact that it's even being made is astounding and frankly I'll take what I can get.
I think people are getting more picky because these games just keep getting more expensive. Even the TTYD is over $60 in some areas. So I kind of understand it to a point. People want greatness when your spending sometimes more then a Walt Disney World ticket for some of these games now.
Edit: people will be lucky if they can even get ahold of a physical copy of the game at launch, Nintendo games hold there value too well imo. Hence why people want this remaster, because the real GC game can fetch well over $100 sadly. Though I don't thin kit is going to matter because scalpers are going to make this $100 too.
So glad we've finally got our beloved game coming out soon so that we can talk about it obsessively!! And I'm glad you made a second channel to make more videos :-)
I forgot if every game isn't 4K 120 then it's just trash. People are stupid.
I don't know... I still think that it's a valid complaint that the remake's enjoyment can be hindered by its lower framerate than the original.
This is coming from someone who is sensitive to framerates, but is still overall incredibly excited for the remake, I come from a place of love as they say.
It is true that 30fps didn't come from a lack of care, and I'm sure they wanted to cap it to keep it consistent.
But due to the game requiring strict timing with certain things like superguarding, I do think that it can indeed negatively impact someone who played the original, as half of those superguard frames are simply missing (unless if they buff superguarding by making the window larger).
It's also true that if the original was 30fps, people would not complain. But I do feel it is reasonable to take issue with this remake halving the framerate since the original's was 60, and some people, regardless of how gorgeous the remake looks, will see that as an overall downgrade. And in regards to Paper Mario 64, Sticker Star, Color Splash, and Origami King running at 30 and no one taking issue with it, those are their own games with their own mechanics designed around the framerate and limited hardware, where as this remake is heavily based off of the original's framework and needing to compromise for the hardware their working on. If a Paper Mario 64 remake ran at 30fps, no one would complain.
This whole thing is actually a recurring thing with some Nintendo remakes as of late. For example: Bowser's Inside Story got a remake that ran at 30 and people criticized it, Super Kirby Clash is a remake of Team Kirby Clash Deluxe that ran at 30 and people criticized it, and now this game got a remake and people are criticizing it. And while I do think that it's easy to be a lot more forgiving of this case because it's a remake of a game we've desperately wanted Nintendo to rerelease for years now, I don't think that it should be exempt from other people's criticisms and disappointments.
What I think that this remake needed is a performance mode option for those who are disappointed with the lackluster framerate. There are plenty of folks out there that would take a worse looking game if it means having a higher framerate, such is the case with several PS5 and XBSX games, and even some third party Switch games like Pac-Man World Re-Pac offer a performance mode for those who really just want a higher framerate, and I feel having that option would make people less upset. But alas, I do not think Nintendo has ever included a performance mode for any of their games.
Anywho, I rambled a little, but I wanted to get my thoughts on this matter here. I'm actually not as upset as others are with the fact that this game is 30fps since everything else about it looks incredible, but as someone who has done speedruns of some games where timing really matters and then went to a 30fps Switch version of said game and played infinitely worse... I feel that people's disappointments with this game's 30fps cap is justified, and it is also absolutely justified that the mass majority don't seem to care that the remake is 30 and think it looks gorgeous anyways. I just wish that there were options for these things. Nintendo games kinda have a problem with allowing multiple options of these sorts in my opinion. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are some criticisms people will likely have with this remake and I do think that those criticisms should be heard so they can maybe make this issue less common in the future. Though it may end up getting a 60fps patch on the next console if it's backwards compatible and this whole debate will dissolve haha.
The BIS remake complaint is stupid. Nobody ever gives specific examples on how the gameplay got worse from the framerate, whereas I can say solo Excellent attacks are MUCH more consistent.
The Spin Pipe's issue is that it only hits 5 times, not 8
@@AkameGaKillfan777 They definitely modified the game speed to accommodate for the framerate, and maybe that’ll be the case for this remake. Though some people may see it as an overall downgrade, even if I feel it doesn’t affect me thaaaaaat much.
@@RyderPlatinumWarpstar I could've just lucked out, or maybe got the game after the lagging issues were patched, but I don't remember ever having that problem with the remake.
You know what DOES have lagging problems? OG TTYD in several places, like turning sideways in East Rougeport to get behind the Trouble Center, blowing away the posters on the Riverside Station Exterior door that leads to the second Interior area, and the Chain Chomps near the riddle tower entrance in the Palace of Shadow.
@@AkameGaKillfan777 That is true. The original game did occasionally lag if the scene was too intense. In that regard there is a chance that the remake’s framerate will be more consistent. But I don’t know for sure.
I think it’s far from a dealbreaker to me, but I’d like to use another beloved game as an allegory for why a lot of people might be disappointed. Bloodborne is one of the best titles on the PS4, and for many one of the best games of all time, yet among all the Souls games that title has perhaps aged the worst directly because of it being locked to 30fps. Granted, it is a completely different style of game, however it is true that an otherwise excellent game can be bogged down as the years go by due to a low framerate. Also, the Super Guards in TTYD are actually quite tight on the timing, so those would really benefit from the additional smoothness!
Isn't people's disappointment with Bloodborne's framerate mostly due to the inconsistency of it? Paper Mario looks to be 30 fps with no drops
Arlo you are speaking all my thoughts so well, it doesn't matter at all and in fact enhances the paper aesthetic. I have diehard friends that are passing on it just bc of the framerate.
I'll never understand people's obsession with frames of all things. 30 is more than enough for most things.
exactly
8 to 15 is* Tell me you havent played Cities Skylines with 500 assets, props and 100 mods before without telling me you havent played Cities Skylines with 500 assets, props and 100 mods before🤣🤣
But it could look *better*
I'll definitely be looking for a way to make it run at 60, like all games should
30 fps is too much you guys are asking for too much 5 fps is perfect
Thank you arlo. I look forward to this video.
"BUT BUT THE ACTION COMMANDS"
Me: That were already super generous compared to the N64 game, Superguard was insanely easy to pull off, and the rest of the game is, y'know...turn-based? Oh no. What a tragedy. Anyway, I'll take my giant list of upgrades and not give a fuck about the frame rate that literally doesn't matter.
Except, The frame rate absolutely matters, especially for people who are sensitive to choppy frames or just used to a consistently solid FPS.
You don't understand Arlo, the only reason it matters is for inputs. The framerate being halved makes all inputs twice as easy, including guarding and superguarding. It's basically like wearing a simplifier all the time. That's the _only_ reason why it matters.
I personally won't melt away if it releases at 30 fps exclusively, but I hope they separate input window from framerate.
@@SagaEf No it doesn't, if they actually change the frame windows.
As long as games are able to hit that target consistently, it’s not an issue. Even still, there are games that don’t perform the best that I still love.
Link’s Awakening remake stutters quite often, but it’s still a fun experience that fixed a lot of issues the original had.
Getting a Steam Deck and running different games at different FPS and graphical settings has desensitized me a little bit. Little bit of stutter or ugly models don’t bother me too badly. Gameplay is king 90% of the time (to me at least. Other people may think differently).
Link's Awakening remake stutters so much that the entire game is ruined, you could not pay me to play that terrible version again. And it's weird that you say that gameplay is king to defend bad framerate, because gameplay is the thing that suffers most from bad framerate. When the framerate is dropping, when the game is constantly slowing down, it's not fun to play anymore. It's ruined.
@@mjc0961 I think it largely depends on the game. If I’m playing a fighting game or platformer, I need stable 60 all day. But a top down action game or RPG doesn’t suffer as far as gameplay when it comes to that for me.
Should developers prioritize stability? 100%, and especially for a top down game like Link’s Awakening stutter is beyond ridiculous, but I can personally live with it is all I meant. I know it varies heavily from person to person. Console games have no excuse though. I’m mainly used to it after tinkering with running games at different settings on a device that’s adjacent to the PC experience.
If TTYD remake runs at a consistent 30, it’s not really a bad thing, it’s just a difference from the original.
Honestly for a game that's running at 30 fps, i literally never noticed, it doesn't even LOOK like its below 30 most times, its the most 60fps thats actually 30fps looking game I've seen.
no matter the fps though, I'm still gonna buy this game and enjoy it with all my soul.
I think this just means you don't know how to detect fps
More than anything, I feel like this game running at 30FPS just shows how outdated Switch hardware is even for "stylized" and cartoony games. Im so excited for Switch 2 and I hope they release performance patches for all the big ticket Switch 1 releases.
to note, i think yes it was 60 and downgrading shows that were in this state in the industry where older games can out perform in terms of frame rate, and it might not be as visually stunning how can we accept that we have better technology and not produce better all around, we have to cut corners. I think when you present the argument like that, its def understandable why this is big peeve. especially if there was a case where they coulda just ported the original intact, but instead choosing to remake it means we've lost something we had originally.
for clarity's sake i dont think its a big deal for us, but i can see the argument and perspective and respect it
I can’t imagine how the developers feel. Remaking a game that many fans wanted a remake of and being called lazy. That’s gotta hurt BAD!!!
It’s even worse when you realize that there was probably a lot of love put into the remake based on all the improvements they made (like the new warp room)
Thank you for being the voice of reason. This is how I've felt about framegate from the start.
Lol Framegate. 😂
Good one!
Because its 2024 and with the technology, coding, and optimization techniques... hitting 60fps is definitely possible especially with dynamic resolution (which is used in super mario odyssey) also, fire emblem warriors has a performance mode which prioritizes framerate over resolution. I'm going to speculate that TTYDR was supposed to be a switch 2 game (we NEVER had two paper mario games on the same console) but Nintendo needed to release something big this year so they used TTYDR. (BTW, I pre-ordered the game twice and will still enjoy it but people need to understand that framerate today is 60-120fps. A decade and a half ago, it was 30-60fps... which is why people are annoyed by it)
@@muffinman1946 Fir explained in an Odyssey Hide-and-seek stream that Nintendo used some sort of technique with simple textures to keep the game 60fps. There's also a LOT of pop-in if you fall from long heights, like the inverted pyramid in Sand Kingdom and stew pot in Luncheon Kingdom, and in there, the rocks have always looked a bit off to me.
Fire Emblem Warriors has pretty mediocre graphics and VERY low-res textures that you won't notice easily because how much you're constantly running around, cutting away at hordes of enemies.
Nintendo fans nitpicking a game over gratuitous details!? Stop the presses!!
I'm with Arlo on this one. As long as the game runs well without frame stutters or other issues, I honestly don't care. I, too, would rather the developers work within the limitations of the hardware and provide a smoother experience than have frequent performance hiccups that deter from enjoying the game.
the fact that they have focused on high quality visuals in this game (and because of that it only runs at 30fps) will work in our favor in the long run. In a few years we'll be emulating the game anyway and then 60fps won't be a problem and we'll have stunning graphics. if they were to tone down the game visually now, we'd be at more of a disadvantage in the future. I think it's great how it is.
Okay, I am going to try and explain why many of us are frustrated about the 30fps, and why it's frustrating to see videos like this where the issue gets completely minimized and we are essentially called insane. There are a lot of issues that halving the framerate brings, but I'll address those later because very few people who argue against people mad at the framerate ever actually engage with the problems it causes. Instead, they often use an insane strawman. In fact, it is so common even this video uses it, so I feel it's important to address that first. That insane strawman is "Oh shut up. This game is a miracle. Do you really want it to fail because it runs at a framerate that's fine for other games?". My issue with that "critique" is that it A) shows a fundamental lack of understanding about what framerate is and how it affects a game, and B) has absolutely nothing to do with the critique whatsoever. In my experience, no one who has an issue with the framerate isn't going to buy this game. We _ARE AWARE_ that this game is a miracle, and we _ARE AWARE_ that it's important to buy it for the future of Paper Mario and Mario RPGs in general. To _ALL OF US_ that need supersedes the need to have a framerate that matches the original. What we are doing is expressing our grievance that the game runs at 30fps, because that is a considerable downgrade and it is frustrating.
To explain _why_ it's a downgrade, let's go back to that initial "critique" of the 30fps crowed. When you say "Oh shut up. This game is a miracle. Do you really want it to fail because it runs at a framerate that's fine for other games?" what you are actually saying is, "Oh shut up. This game is a miracle. Do you really want this game to fail just because of a tiny thing like removing half of the frames that used to exist? Half of the frames that the developers knew existed and the game was designed around having? removing a fundamental piece of how the original was constructed at a base level?" When framed like that, it becomes a bit clearer why this argument is stupid on so many levels. I could go into specific examples, like how the superguard timing window was 3 frames in the original which is literally impossible to replicate at 30fps, but I could also just point to the Bowser's Inside Story remake. The BIS remake also halved the framerate from 60 to 30, and that had a massive and very tangible impact on the experience. It affected the game in terms of game feel and responsiveness of the controls, and it also forced the devs to slow attacks down massively because half the frames that you had to see an attack coming no longer existed. This applied to both the enemies' attacks and the player's attacks. Now that half the frames were gone, the attacks could not be as fast as they were before because they were created with the knowledge that double the frames existed. It's especially noticeable on stuff like spinpipe, which is slow as molasses in the remake because the pipe has to spin at a speed that is discernable at 30fps.
The BIS remake is the easiest thing to point to because it is a real, historical example of the devastating effects that halving the framerate can have. One of the biggest issues with the BIS remake is that because everything had to be slowed to accommodate the new framerate, the entire game feels like it is wasting your time, especially if you're used to the original where some actions were genuinely twice the speed. When things take twice as long or more than they used to, it is infuriating. When a new game runs at 30fps, there is no 60fps version to compare to. Even 60fps patches are the same game but with more frames. When there is an original version made at 60fps, made _for_ 60fps, _LOSING_ that 60fps makes the entire thing slow down.
The existence of the BIS remake is why many of us feel utterly fucking baffled when people act like there's no way this could possibly cause any issues ever in any universe. The BIS remake is a massive and very real example that shows that no, this can have extremely apparent and sometimes devastating effects. When we get called essentially insane for thinking that there's a universe where the halving of the framerate causes issues, it is beyond frustrating. It's literally like being gaslit and told "The BIS remake never happened". I assure you, I wish I lived in a world where the BIS remake didn't happen the way it did, but it did happen, and it shows exactly why this can be a very bad thing.
Good comment, very insightful. I do feel like most comments that criticize the 30fps do not even have a sliver of that insight though
W take
Something to mention is that BIS being a failure isn't really because of the framerate. Is because they were trying to remake a semirecent Game on a console that were compatible with that semirecent Game, and worst of all, outdated by the Switch by almost 2 years. Of course, 30 FPS could be an annoyance, but It wasnt the primarly issue why It failed, knowing that SS RE, a Game that run at 60, also was a minor, but still a failure.
That said, we aren't complaining that 30 FPS can't be an annoyance and preferible to 60, is a real shame, but the constant effort to try to boicott a Game we havent played yet, more when the success of this Game could be difference Between success and failure of the franchise, hence why we are so defensive.
And before someone ask "Well then if they wanted to make It a success why dont make It 60 FPS??????"
Because Intelligent System always put graphics over performance since Sticker Star, and I Heard a lot of criticism towards the newer games, but none even touched the framerate. And while is a shame, is completely understansable why they took that decision at It seems that the remake is handled by the same engine as TOK.
This decision could be supported by that an action RPG, unlike a Game that is really action based, doesnt really require a high FPS to perform Well. An stable FPS and a increases of tight Windows such as action commands that wouldn't work on 30 might be enough.
That said, I feel that this is an exagerated issue, and while It sure deserves to be criticised, It doesnt deserves to be boicotted by people trying to pirate It on Yuzu because "is lazy", disregarding all the beautiful work behind this remake.
@@JoseViktor4099 I just wanted to say, I don't think most people who are upset about the FPS are boycotting the game. I have seen many people pissed about the FPS on various online Paper Mario communities and most of them have said they are either buying day 1 or have already pre-ordered the game. I mean, there's a reason that pre-orders are selling out. That said, I don't want to say you've invented people who are saying they'll boycott it, but I imagine those people just irrationally have 30fps games. I prefer 60fps to 30fps always, but I still play and enjoy many 30fps games including the original Paper Mario. I am always sad when new games are locked at 30, but I only really care about 30fps when 60fps is lost for it.
But to touch on the BIS comparison a bit further, first I just want to say that I wasn't saying the FPS was the entire reason it failed. I agree that the fps had nothing to do with why it failed. But the FPS had a large part to play in why it sucked to play that version in comparison to the original. Compromises had to be made to account for the frames that no longer existed, and a lot of the compromises were beyond egregious. With that said, the TTYD remake in all the footage I've seen is making much more intelligent compromises, but some things are still slower. Also, some reports are saying that the superguard window has been extended, and that could have an enormous effect on game balance. Superguards are already almost too strong, and even the 50fps PAL version made superguards much stronger, and that wasn't extending it by effectively an entire frame.
@@proking2354 Is understansable all that you said.
When I meant that Some people tried to boicott the Game, is to jump from comment to comment explaining why the remake is inferior and we shouldn't buy It and better use Yuzu, which probably is gonna support this game on 60 FPS. And of course if the response of calling It out is "Duh, should had made a better work then" is very frustating to see, because thats a full remake. Maybe the concept of "boycott" the Game could be diferent, but I actually consider It very frustranting to see those things regardless.
The superguard window I Heard to last 2 frames, or on 60FPS, a frame more, which is 0.067 seconds compared to the 0.05 seconds of the original time window. We have to wait how that can affect the original really, is hard to imagine like that. The main block window seen to be expanded just like the Modern Paper Marios.
And for BiS, I Heard a lot of criticism and Part (it has more issues as you might know) of It was actually the 30 FPS, but I think that the case that game was more egregious as we came from a Game that went to 60 FPS ,no sluttering ,and no real graphical improvements that could make It more demanding, apart of the 3D Fights, probably because this Game was really rushed on a final attempt to stand up again, really sad. Regardless, I feel that they are very diferent escenarios and a comparison can be hard to make here.
Who cares if it costs more and performs worse, we should be GRATEFUL The Shareholders are letting us pay for a good Paper Mario for once!
It doesn't even necessarily "perform worse".
Nobody needs to be greatful or do anything.
If people are happy they can be happy, if you dont like it, sorry thas where you land.
Super guards used to have a 3 frame window, so the game is going to play differently if they change it to 1/30th of a second or 2/30ths, which they'll probably do the later unless the allow between frame inputs. If I'm being honest the only time I've even heard this debate I didn't remember that the original ran in 60, so I thought it was silly. But the only concern I have with this change is gameplay, because frames matter a lot for paper Mario. Like, is the simplifier going to effect 1/4 of a frame for super guards? or is it going to be better than the original's.
I'm willing to bet they'll just round everything up and make the game even easier than it already is.
Thing is peoples reaction times are going to be different anyway because it’s still been 20 years
You know I can't even tell the difference.
I think if it ran at 30fps AND had many other "downgrades" it would be a big issue. But there is so many improvements here and to be honest, I didn't even know the original ran at 60fps. If I don't notice, I don't care.
Proof that Nintendo can give their audience EXACTLY what they’ve been asking for, and people will still find something to complain about
People would complain if they just did a remaster with minor enhancements and no downgrades, labeling it as a cheap cash grab that Nintendo knows Paper Mario fans will eat up.
People complain about “censorship” but people will also complain if they uncensor Vivian. Others will complain if they leave Vivian censored. Apparently some people are complaining about the removal of the dead toad thing in rogue port, even though that was already removed in non-Japanese versions of the original.
You can’t please everyone no matter what you do.
How did I not know about the dead Toad thing holy fuck
god dude looking in the comments of this video makes me so annoyed why are people so annoying why cant people just enjoy this cool good game
You are completely right in that this is only an issue because the original ran at 60, but that is what inheritly makes the issue worse for a lot of us. My thing is, It is inheritly a downgrade, and no matter how much people or devs will claim otherwise, I don't think it's excuseable for a Gamecube game with a (beautiful) new look to be running worse on infinitely more powerful hardware. I don't think a game with the gall to not even call itself a remake or remaster, literally just the title of the original game, should have ANYTHING inferior to the original in it.
People don't see frame rate differences the same as others, and that's perfectly valid. Anyone who didn't even notice the original was 60 is not being stupid or blind, it's purely an eye/brain thing. But as someone whose accutely aware of it, its a downgrade. Period. Objectively. I don't care for a second if the game is made from the ground up or if its a fresh coat of paint, this is a game whose areas are divided up into extremely small loading zones, absolutely TINY areas that I guarentee will not be that taxing. The enviornments in this game are not even REMOTELY close to the size and scope of Color Splash and Orgami King, and it is not constantly being loaded in in real time. All of the points you bring up are just as much conjecture about how it "had to be 30".
ALL OF THAT BEING SAID. I can deal with it. Despite the wall of text, I'm mostly over it, the game will play fine and it's still goregous AND my favorite game of all time, I'm going to love it. But I am absolutely sick of people treating this like it was unavoidable when I guarentee you there will be a console compatable 60fps patch for homebrew on week 1 that will be nearly flawless. Id bet money on it. It has happened plenty of times already.
As long as strict timings like parry are similar that should be fine to me.
In the original, parries are a 3 frames window at 60fps, so something like a 2 (longer) frames window in the remake could work well.
It would be basically the same as as 4 frames window at 60fps, so slightly easier than the original but not too much.
It also depends on how readable some attacks become at the new framerate, the additional input delay that could result from 30fps, and how much they've tweaked stuff in general.
@@Linkenfant The input delay is something I don't get, but it's not because of the framerate. Power Lift is still just as fast and responsive as the original. Action commands as a whole work mostly well, it's the menu selections that are slow.
When you say to blame the Switch, that isn't the case either. The biggest bottleneck in the Switch is by far the RAM speed. The CPU, GPU, and storage are all perfectly acceptable. If you overclock the RAM to 1862MHz, Tears of the Kingdom runs at a locked 30, instead of dipping and spinning like a drunken ballerina whenever you try to use Ultrahand. But, years ago, Nintendo updated the software development kit, removing the ability to overclock, instead favoring their own Boost Mode(TM) that doesn't touch the RAM speed. The Switch is plenty capable, Nintendo just won't let devs use the full capabilities of the hardware.
Now to be clear, the reason they probably did this is because 1% of 1% of OLD Switch models (only the old ones, pre-battery boost) have a *small chance* to have the RAM fail if you boost it to 1862MHz or higher. But in fairness, the liklihood of this happening is so low that it's not worth cutting performance over. At worst, they would have to replace a couple thousand Switches, out of over 100 million already sold, and billions in profit since.
They're so paranoid that a tiny number of Switches might need repaired that they're willing to drag down everyone else's resources for development and therefore everyone else's gaming experience. Only those of us with a hacked Switch are lucky enough to be able to make our games run better on our own. Everyone else, all the customers following the rules, don't get this benefit, and it sucks.
It really annoyed me in Link's Awakening. That blur around the edges of the screen that makes it harder to see? Well it also puts strain on the framerate too. The performance is better without it. It looks bad and it hurts the smoothness of the experience too. It's such a baffling, annoying decision. Yet, with my hacked Switch, I can just remove that.
I don't see why Nintendo couldn't just give us an option in the settings that's labeled "Performance mode" and describe it as higher performance in exchange for less battery life. In the dock, the battery is irrelevant anyway.
There not doing it cause they dispise there fan base, or wish ill will against them. Its just the switch is very very very weak so they did there best. I respect it.
They're just not stupid. They know there fan base is mainly 10 to 12 year olds. They simply don't notice the frame rate. Heck they haven't hit pubirty yet.
Alot of children make the little tablet thier entire life. So Nintendo knows they dont care. If they made consoles for teens and adults boy you'd get some quality out Nintendo
@@VancouverSmoker Hello edgy teen who needs blood, guts, sex and swearing to feel "mature."
I'd be interested to hear from the game's developers on this one, rather than hearing folks on the outside speculating about it... When I do game dev, I try to keep everything as efficient as possible to maintain that 60 FPS frame rate. Sometimes it surprises me how much can be going on without dropping a frame, and I think shaders are the biggest culprit for demanding processing power. Shader code is wizardry. If you don't understand everything about how it works, you effectively don't understand it at all. It's one of the biggest points where I'm lacking personally, but we work with what we have. Anything else, it's a lot of fun to build code with maximum efficiency in mind to get as much as we can out of it without slowing it down. Some out of the box thinking can lead to some crazy results that work really smoothly.
But I think what bothers me more than missing the 60 FPS rate is people justifying it as not being bad or as looking better this way. This usually feels like coping, and I've seen friends caught in hypocrisy when modders figure out how to unlock the frame rate, and they absolutely drool over the new result despite praising the lower frame rate beforehand. A stilted frame rate does not look better. It's a cost being paid, not an improvement being made. I don't like when people dress it up like it improves the experience just because they want to be "right" and hold moral high ground over people who don't like that compromise.
Very fair take
i mean i will personally say, whenever i see mods that make botw/totk run at 60 fps the smoothness looks "off" to me, like i find it to make the whole world of the game look a bit more fake somehow because i guess the extra frames leave less room for the imagination to fill in movement with the masking effect so it somewhat breaks the illusion of the like "animated" art style (to me personally) so for that reason i would at least myself say i think there's definitely a time and place for certain choices to be made differently
@@Envy_May I think I get you. I can imagine that being because you're used to seeing the game at its original frame rate, or possibly because it was built with that lower frame rate, and just bumping up the limit means the frame-by-frame calculations aren't changing to match. I like the way it looks more, but you're not imagining what you're seeing.
Although not one of the TTYD developers, the Director for Bayonetta Origins made a thread on Twitter empathizing with the TTYD developers saying that it was extremely difficult to get the game to run at a stable 60fps on the Switch without significant frame drops. They only had two options to choose from: either unlock the frame rate but it would frequently drop between 30~50fps or lock the frame rate at a stable 30fps and they chose the latter. The only way they would have been able to run the game at a stable 60fps is by cutting down on the post-processing effects, which they did not want to compromise on just to hit a stable 60fps as they had a specific art style in mind for the game.
Obviously it wont be a big deal to you or most existing fans but it will turn new folks away like Nintendo always does with underperforming console specs
So being well on track to having the best selling console in the history of gaming is defined as “turning people away” these days?
It's definitely only an issue because of the comparison to the original. Whenever there's a remake/remaster, I tend to wish for it to be the definitive version so that it can just replace the original. I want it to be straight-up better, not "generally better" but with an asterisk.
That said, I totally understand that a remake with zero compromises isn't always possible. Remakes almost always have at least one thing in them that's worse than the original. I'm not really upset about 30 fps here. A high frame rate in a game like this isn't a super important anyway, and the game overall looks fantastic.
Just wanting to say that I love your new channel Arlo! It's really nice being able to hear you a lot more and on a wider variety of topics!