DEBUNKED! Fake "Kuen To" Wing Tsun Form | Kung Fu Genius Episode 4
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 ก.ย. 2024
- In this fourth episode of the Kung Fu Genius, Alex Richter tackles an urban myth from his own WT (Wing Tsun = Leung Ting System) backyard. The supposed "Kuen To" form has been touted in Europe as some sort of special sequence of training punches and other strikes on the three-sectional wall-bag (and with a partner/and solo/and with super special "applications"). Alex Richter even learned this "form" nearly 20 years ago in Germany and eventually had the chance to ask Sifu Leung Ting , the founder of the Wing Tsun (WT) line, about "Kuen To". The answer will make you shake your head.
Beyond debunking a fake form, this video goes into a perennial problem of western Kung Fu instructors to repackage and misrepresent methods of their own creation. This video is a call to reevaluate traditional and modern methods.
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Great debunk! As an EWTO student (now ex), we were exposed to super secret footwork sets, variants on Chi Sao sections etc etc. Some great training in there don’t get me wrong, but in the end, just ways to elongate the system and keep the myth going!!
T Simmonds there are endless variations in sparring, especially in Da Lat Sau and Gwo Sau, but the teaching program is pretty standardized. It seems many don’t have the sparring but create stuff in the teaching program that has dubious value.
I'm an EWTO instructor myself and I do agree that there most definitely are better and worse teachers in the organization. But the last years saw quite a positive change in the way WT is teached, at least on the instructor seminars that is. The problem simply is that such a large cooperation of schools needs to offer each of them quite some room to play in if it wants to stay managable and thus the system will sadly create establishments where the goal isn't to teach effective ways of self defense but instead creative ways to sell people stuff.
The Kung Fu Genius - I see GMKK has responded (FB post refers)!
Sad and very unfortunate.
It means "fist sets". It's a generic term that can refer to optional derivatives sets (aka boxing combos) taught in drills, forms, and pak/lat-sau exercises. Every coach has their "secret sets" just like a football playbook. I know so many people who have memorized these sets (boxing combos) but cannot fight. There's absolutely NOTHING secret about these combos... it's basically a Chinese method to teach people not to rely on brute force memorization, yet ironically, people still do it! If you know how to freestyle on the dummy or in sparring after learning your Wing Chun curriculum, there's absolutely NO need to rely on Kuen-to. The ONLY time my sifu used Kuen-to (combos) was to correct sparring mistakes of the students. He'll make you practice only that one combo with everyone until you get it right. He does not make you memorize it. Instructors use combos simply to "re-tune" and correct desired fight reflexes such as if I get hit on the head every time I block the torso, he will deviate a few different pak sau drills combos that have me pak the center and tan the face, but once he figures out where I screw up, we simply work on that part ALONE... we don't memorize a complex dance combo of movements... he simply uses kuen-to to diagnose problems... BTW, most of these excercises are available on TH-cam. YOU DON'T NEED TO KNOW EVERY NOR ANY SET. Focusing on movement precision and accuracy helps improvement.
The issue is this is sold as a form.
OMFG “A boxing form on a wall bag that’s a special sequence of punches which can be done with a partner and has special applications in fighting” this was epic.
I'm going to start calling boxing/mma gloves "forms" from now on to piss people off that take themselves seriously
I had to say that, because if I said that this fake KT form was just something on the wall bag, one of his defenders will say “no it’s also a partner form and you can also do it in the air“. In other words they would try to use some detail about this fake form to somehow prove that I wasn’t completely knowledgeable. In other words they would’ve still missed the point had I not try to be a little more complete.
*its defenders
Great video! That was a lot of fun. If you're up for it maybe consider "Wing Chun doesn't kick above the waist", "You don't have to be fit to be good at Wing Chun" or my current curiosity of Fa Jin/explosive power.
Devin Harper awesome ideas, thank you!
Sifu Wong was known to kick above the waist if this strike was possible and needed in the fight. I heard he used a heel kick to the opponents chin whilst both men were holding each other’s arms. May have been other options but the strike was unstoppable and finished the other guy off.
Sifu I NEVER EVER DREAMED that long wall bag was for specific 👊 adjustments 😲!! I have made -myself wall bag ( saving some 💵) This is semi -🙃funny 🙂 Bruce's students was 12 to 18 yrs older than he was & I'm 12 years older than you!! It's Not The Age, It's The Knowledge...I am humble to have learned 😌 from you ,Sifu 🙏
Everyone knows that the Wallbag© was actually invented by Bob Wall, who then taught it to everyone in WC.
Facts!
The only forms I know as a jkd guy. Never had a wing chun coach. Everything I do I learned on my own. Except.. early childhood. Around 10-12 I began a hybrid SHAOLIN WING and JKD training. We had Bruce Lee books and new TAN BONG and blast. 😂❤funny. But now, I study all the masters for better easier ways of doing things. The forms I know are 1. SIL NIM TAO SUI LIM TAO SUI LIM TAO SUI NIM TAO 18 hand PAK SAO. THE LITTLE IDEA. 2. SEEKING THE BRIDGE CHUM KIU 3. DARTING FINGERS RUSHING SNAKE 4. UNG MOON 5 gates. 5. I haven’t learned the BOON KWON yet. The dummy sets. Up to 7. I know the moves from 8-9 but not the sections. I now do a Shaolin way version. All 3 forms in one ☺️🤟💥
"They think they are sooo clever ...just making up some funny movements ... I tell you the truth ...there is no such movement in Wing Tsun!" -- (paraphrased) Comments by my old sifu, Leung Ting regarding some of the "creative" stuff coming out of the EWTO, as far back as the late 80s or early 90s.
I can hear his voice in this comment! It’s like a flashback.
Great video !
Any chance doing videos on forms e.g. Si Lim Dao myths and what's righteous, correct & practicable; What Works? !
Keep up the good work.
Melanie Marshall thank you for your comment and suggestions! Means a lot to me.
What is the deal with Brian McComas? Discrediting Leung Ting...
People discrediting my former teacher are a dime a dozen. I’ve never heard of this guy, and I don’t think anyone can pay me enough money to care.
Wing Chun is quite uncomplicated. But sui nim tao must be learnt correctly and understood. Once you can perform this form correctly it flows through each of the other forms. The force established in the first form is the same force used in the other forms.
Yeah. There’s plenty of crap taught and sold in the martial arts world. It’s sad but you can ignore it if you’re legitimate 👍🏻.
Reminds me of when William Cheung was claiming to teach “death touch” in the 70’s & 80’s. Dim Mak. What a load of crap. Somehow he’s still managed to survive his exposure despite only learning Wing Chun for a very brief period before moving to Australia. This stuff is everywhere
1:33 Lol I trained with that giant too around the year 2000, still remember he told me he was 2,04m tall and weighted about 140kg.
I think his name was Bjorn, right?
The Kung Fu Genius I only remember he was ridiculously strong: a 3rd-grade technician chose him to show us how one can 'easily' push away a bigger opponent using a shoulder strike form Chum Kiu ... the giant didn't freaking move of a single centimeter. Very embarrassing (and amusing) scene.
We had no Internet! That WT Kuen was it! Sifu Genius...you remember pouring imagination into it too, I know you do. I can imagine some German searching for secrets to train and run in class and finding that typo! Is there another connection in the Dynamic video I wonder?
If you can solve a mystery, I only received the watered down version Si-Fu Boztepe(Ha) and a few Heidelberg Germans that gave seminars, and I never really figured out a good meaning for Nuk Sau practice. I have 2, but they I am sure are just stuff people made up from that line in the WT Kuen syllabus.
I also remember the secret footwork sets Leung Ting was rumored to have, that the "Top Castle Students" had figured out themselves from watching him move. As you said at 3:24- Leung Ting said WT is not about adding more and more stuff. I wondered then if they should have listened more and made up less....
It is a typo, it is an incorrect transliteration. There is no “nuk sau” training in Hong Kong Wing Tsun. Hong Kong Wing Tsun has three sparring modalities: Gwo Sau, Lat Sau, and Ji Yau Bok Gik (free fight). That’s all that’s needed.
I like what you're doing man!
Thank you!
I think that stuff like this is mostly either made up to look better to the outside (who wouldn't like to lern from someone with secret knowledge) or to bind students to oneself by just making up more stuff to teach.
But I also agree with you that such things are often spread by students themselves. I'm an instructor [EWTO] myself and I'm often astonished when other instructors talk about the "secrecy" of certain things only teached to higher levels or Masters, like they would be in some sort of secret organization.
Joey Thietje and these kind of things detract from the beauty of WT! And SiFu LT is someone who is really against these type of things. It’s a shame how these things grew under his nose.
@@TheKungFuGenius It's not only bad from an esthetic point of view but it also leads to insecurity and mistrust inside the WT and whole martial arts community. The attribution to famous and skilled masters lends Ideas credibility and makes them hard to critique by someone who might just get told that he doesn't know the whole picture yet or something like that.
There’s no secrets. Only levels of skill which most instructors haven’t achieved and if they’re already on the wrong path, will not even get close to. Sad.
Love the debunking!
at 5:28 the image says he has a suspicion, and the map colors an area in Germany I assume is Saarbrucken. Can anyone explain what he means by that? Is (or was) there a particular teacher there known for making stuff up?
Omri Yuval no need to call out anyone... suffice it to say this form is German in origin.
Specialized it get more Yin ( In other words 🤑CASHS 🤑) that the reason WC Branches are always chopping at each other creating a branchless tree 🌳
Love it!
If anything, you really gotta hand it to them for sheer creativity. Forming an entire subcategory of a fighting system based on the lore of protective hand padding. Good job!
sichiu haha yes! Gwailo make up all sorts of hot nonsense.
Now let’s see what they can do with the secret... of “Kuen Tau” (拳頭）
sichiu hahaha
I have heard Leung Ting deliberately incorporates these errors to see who "learns" Wing Tsun from books and videos and then makes fun of it. Could be this the explanation?
Great video anyways, thank u so much for that. 🙏
Martin Dlugi that is possible, and he has done that especially with the eighth kick on the wooden dummy in the past. However I don’t think that this is the case here, as even the glossary doesn’t define this as being a “form on the wall bag”.
@@TheKungFuGenius Also, his old poster series was missing the Kwan Sau in SNT, his Chi Sau booklets have a few pictures wrong if a person doesn't READ but only follows the images. He told us a story about making up a fake butcher character for a movie once, and then later WC people claimed it was a real story. Ha!
To many techniques is right! When we asked him for secret beginner drills he said there were none for those things because we should get to poon sau as fast as possible! All those drills should only be in chi sau. IN 2000, in LA, he literally sneered about the Blitz Defense, said "Why? We have Lat Sau already?" then smiled and showed us his Lan Sau Police Protection program instead.
@@DrTzeus like most men of accomplishment, he is overly criticized by his haters, over praised by his followers, and misunderstood by most.
What's the methodology of hitting the wall bag that you mention? A video about this would be awesome and sure beneficial to many practitioners!
Cisco S I’m sure it would be! However the purpose of my channel is more about clearing up misinformation and misconceptions, and not so much about me pontificating on what I teach my students here in New York City.
Are there any other fake lineages I should beware of ..or just to know
Kuen means Boxing 🥊??!!! Sifu , Martial Perceptions is so important to us all!! It keeps us from being mystified by "ancient Chinese secrets"
Being creative and try around with new training methods is one thing, but create new stuff and sell it as gold and mystify it as hidden secrets makes me sad. That's not what Wing Chun deserves.
I also practice in Germany and the one who teaches WC like I think it should be is Cord Elsner. Ever heard of him? No secrets. Clear, transparent, functional.
Kampfkünstlerische Grüße! 🙏🙂
Thanks for your message! I never heard of Cord, but he did send me a message once warning me that some self proclaimed grandmaster from Germany was going to sue me and that I should be careful. My lawyers are still waiting… and laughing.
The only secret footwork that wing chun has that i have seen in the past 46 years of my martial arts training,is how to backpedal like he!! When they’re getting their a**S kicked,thats the secret.
That’s no secret, everyone knows that footwork regardless of style when they’re getting their ass kicked!
This is excellent. I'm not a Wing Chun practitioner, but this problem of supplementing one's system without proper understanding what one is changing is something that pervades much of Chinese martial arts.
Thank you!
agreed!
Awww man, I learned this stuff
too and I know where it is coming from. There is a lot of creativity in european wingchun masters, especially back in the days when style was bot that transparent.
Did you learn the Nuk Sau form too? They are going to run out of terms from Sifu LT's books to use for made up things....hahaha
Is there a "Wooden Dummy Kicking Form" in Wing Chun - or is it a fake?
Anyone can create their own form, it’s only fake when they claim someone else made it.
@@TheKungFuGenius 🙏Quote: "Wing Chun Dummy Kicking Form is a rarely seen training method. The form brings you the essence of Wing Chun Kicking power. Many Wing Chun practitioners who don't fully understand Wing Chun assume that Wing Chun is not good at legs, which is totally wrong. The powerful kicking techniques are passed from Grand Master Yip Man -> Master Chow Tze Chuen -> Sifu Donald Mak. The form is demonstrated by Sifu Donald Mak who has over 30 years of Wing Chun coaching experience. The Dummy Kicking form is divided into 70+ movements."
Nice I like your channel friend. A lot of those secret moves are just mistranslation and it needs to be known but there are some secrets still
Thanks for commenting.
Faker than 4 striped Adidas 😂🤣😂🤣
Adonis Williams all day every day
Can you debunk the Rattan Ring. There are a lot of videos on TH-cam on this and feel they are somewhat real... possibly even useful?
Adolfo Gonzalez if you watch the end of this video, my take on these methods would be the same as the rattan ring. If you understand the methodology, you’ve learned your art properly, you can add or train whatever you want as long as it makes sense. It’s when people replace proper training with things like the rattan ring that a roll my eyes.
*I roll my eyes I meant
I would like to know your take on Nhất Nam. It's a Vietnamese martial art which seems heavily influenced by Kung Fu. It's supposedly been around for centuries but it only became known as Nhất Nam in 1983.
Never heard of it
Punch hit?
Excellent as always!! Sifu could you share your thoughts on WSl ving tsun? Specifically on the differences with your lineage.Side note, I see big Sean on JKD DIALOGUES with sifu Dwight Woods; would love to see you being interviewed by sifu Dwight -even though it’s a jkd platform. Looking forward to more episodes.
Elvis lourdes great suggestions! I do not know SiFu Dwight, but I would gladly accept an invite if it ever came.
There is an exercise called the "boxing exercise" in the Ip Man lineage. Doesn't need a bag. It is the combination of the skills of the first two forms i.e. you should be able to chase an opponent in any direction throwing punches as you go...I totally agree with your video and it's sentiment though.
Lee Ives I think you are talking about “ji yau bou” which is completely unrelated to this thing. Kuen To or To Kuen are genetic terms for a form.
*generic
@@TheKungFuGenius agreed, but many don't know the exercise or practice it. I do understand.
Excellent explanation
WHAT THE FUCK. I did WT and I've never heard of Kuen To. This is crazy to me. This sounds like some shit that Sergio made up.
can you demo this form that does not exist ? or are you saving all the sweet wing chun secrets for yourself. ? diabolical genius
That’s dope
Glad I speak Cantonese, helps when sifting through the made up bullshit lol
Yup...
Can you do a video of your "traditional" leungting wallbag training what you talk about? Im curious. Im from germany and know the kuen-to wallbag training. I would love to see your leungting version 😊
Mirko Voigt Come to NYC! By the ways it’s not “fancy”, it’s simple, but it’s about the correct methodology of punching instead of fancy combinations.
To ny is really far away... 😥
Mirko Voigt this method can only be taught by hand, like everything else in wing tsun!
@@TheKungFuGenius maybe is there some sparring or fights you do on video? If its in i think i will detect it ;)
Mirko Voigt im sorry I don’t “teach” online...
Who better than Kung Fu Genius for bringing sense to what has been lost in translation. Stay sharp Si-Gong. So proud to be your student.
Harry Assouline I hope there are people more knowledgeable than myself who will contribute to the conversation in a better way than I can.
Mr. T 👍🏿... wow 4 stripes adidas 😆
Do you have the traditional method of the wall bag on video? 🙏
Sorry! My channel is focused on clearing up many Western misconceptions about Chinese culture/Hong Kong WT. I stay far away from the thankless job of teaching people for free on TH-cam 🤐
@@TheKungFuGenius really? You have quite a few vids. This is you right? th-cam.com/video/wP4WAMr5g48/w-d-xo.html
Debunk William Cheung. You know you want to.
Eric Rosenfield I have friends in the William Cheung lineage and would never do that! Besides the historical claims of SiFu Cheung are the outlier, and I don’t believe anyone outside of his own students accept it as fact. Therefore it would be “preaching to the choir” to debunk his historical claims while upsetting friendships I’ve made in the past few years. Not gonna happen.
When someone taught me the chain punching once, i came up with some of the same patterns by myself and thought i was very original... Until i found a video that taught them...
Question tho... Do you believe techniques or martial srts that claim fake origins but are actually useful should be practiced? There is a martial art known as sipalki in argentina... It claims to be over 1000 years old but some people claim it came from hapkido(it has many similar techniwues and forms) however, its also one of the most brutal martial arts you can practice, it has full contact tournaments that even allow techniques forbiden in mma, bjj, judo, karate, etc... Altho, not usually seen, and many trchniwues that are allowed in mma are not allowed in sipalki... The multiple times world champion of musy thai and kick boxing cristian serpiente bosch was asked in an interview if it was hard to go from sipalki to combat sports and his answer was something like "it was hsrd because most thingd i did in sipalki were not allowed there... Sipalki was the closest thing to mma in argentins before the ufc"
Also, sipalki has tournaments wuth sword, nunchaku, long staff, short staff and knife fighting
gingercore69 people should practice whatever brings them joy! My issue is when people intentionally mislead others.
@@TheKungFuGenius good point... I mean, they do lie about their origin, but in the end i dont think i care when the art was onvented as long as i get to learn how to fight with swords
if you don't mind learning from people who "lie".
@@TheKungFuGenius its not like i have much of a choice, the obly teo arts that teach swords arround town are sipalki and bujinkan, and both sre known to not be able to proove their origin story... At least he lie in their case come from the grand master and not the instructors of today... And there are martial arts that claim to be invented by muthical creatures so, i think lying about the origins isnt something new...
gingercore69 🤷🏻♂️
Lots of things have been modified in Europe, maybe some of them are not correct from historical perspective. I like to learn the historical and Chinese ways you teach, they are great. But you should say too that some of the European sifus from the old ewto are the best wing tsun fighters in the world.
Miguel Lopera I was clear not to blame the ewto for this - the creator of this form knows who he is! The fact that the old school ewto guys were some of the best fighter is true, but not relevant at all to this video.
@@TheKungFuGenius Was a certain ex EWTO technician who is now a „Grandmaster“ of his own organization and probably has the largest Wing Tsun You Tube Channel, responsible? Wouldn’t surprise me.
7:00 wow. That’s fffff up. I watched this one again. So the probably mid level dudes decided, I know how I can look superior. 🤮😛☺️so funny. Then they grabbed a L TING book and made it official. 😂❤
Ive done wing chun for 15 years and never heard of kuen to. Guess it’s because I only own one two books on wc. And the one I read most as not a single fighting technique in it.
Skoog makes sense
wowowo...Was hat das Saarland damit zu tun? Hat etwa ein Saarländer das erfunden?
The fake Kuen To form is from the mean streets of Saarland.
🤔 hahaha yip sao... wasn’t that a dragos invention? 🤣
Shootart I dunno, my students and wing tsun instructors worldwide send me these things and ask me to explain. Unfortunately the lack of Cantonese-speaking people in Germany allows lots of chop suey creations to go inchecked
*unchecked
The dislikes on this video are from "Kuen To" Masters.
36 Styles “Kuen To Army” 😜! Unfortunately, some German WT hucksters sold all sorts of chop suey. You should see what passes for “Chinese food” in Germany too 🤢
I almost spit out my coffee.
Thank you, Si-Gung for this episode.
LOL!!!
Thanks for commenting!
Amen!!! #TruthHurts
FACTS!