I was wrong about the grenade thing. Multiple people pointed it out, the TM has a chart for which grenades you can cook, and the m67 can be cooked for 2 seconds, so my bad. Multiple people have also said Russian grenade fuses are untrustworthy, but I haven't verified that. Thanks for watching
Hey sorry to grave dig your comment, but I'll confirm for you russian UZRGM style fuses are SUS asf. It's common to not carry them fused until you're actively on your infil or already on position. We've had dudes get injured from them spontaneously combusting in dudes pouches, pockets etc.
@@icarusgaming6269because the most vocal milsimmers are the people who don’t have the motor skill to hit a stationary target with a baseball bat from 2 feet away so they want everybody else’s functioning fine motor control to be nerfed artificially so that everybody is forced to be equally as bad as them
@@DigitalShaolinI don't have bad aim, I don't have great aim, but I support the ICO in Squad because if I want to get out-aimed, I play Halo or Battlefield or Insurgency or CoD. If I want an authentic military shooter where I have to be OUTSMARTED and OUTGUNNED, I play Squad or Tarkov or Arma. I didn't like Squad being about better aim because it contrasted with the detail of the core gameplay. It just felt cheap.
seems like you're actually trying to be dumb, you completely missed the point of what realism means. there are mechanic video games, and they're incredibly unrealistic. it's not the action or duration of the military games that is unrealistic. it's the fact that you can sprint with a heavy machine gun, jump off a building and land shots on someone 3 stories down, land and survive.
1. Do you want to feel like a soldier making decisions(having fun) or 2. do you want to read a 200-page manual to learn how to fly, use laser-guided bombs, fly formation, use the radio, etc.?(DCS) Yeah, afterwards, I also wonder why I picked 2; this stuff is painful
Surprisingly enough, some people draw more from the accomplishment of learning how to use their aircraft then what the aircraft is actually doing. There is nothing wrong with that. That being said, a game/sim needs to set the expectation of how far in one axis they intend to go. They don’t need to always be fully towards one end, but they should always communicate it so they can work off community responses.
DCS is very fun, and lets make it clear there more around 500-page manuals and I also wonder why I've spent so much time reading them. still love the experience though, it's very rewarding.
I miss the days where we saw something very unrealistic, in a very fun game, and we just called it "game logic". We just called it a day and kept having fun, or played a different game.
People are too easily led by divisive culture war nonsense and everything has to be a point of division in some way including videogames. So much they lose their minds when they see a black man in a ww2 game and cry "muh realism". I wish people were more live and let live rather than thinking everything is a battle they have to fight
The "don't cook a grenade" comes with an asterisk: You are told, when employing a grenade into something like a bunker, to actually cook the grenade for about a second before tossing it in to give the defenders less time to react to it. Otherwise NO! Edit: videogames tend to not give their grenades random fuses. If your grenade had a potential for exploding much sooner than expected, you would not cook it. It would eliminate "timing" your grenade like R6S.
Now that you bring this up, it occurred to me that adding random fuses in grenades would not actually be too bad of a idea. If they add cooking back into R6 but then the grenades have slightly different fuse timers even if it is of the same type to simulate the slight inconsistency real life grenades can have, it could have the 'realism' of grenades being able to be cooked along with the 'realism' of the consequence of doing so. It could make a cool risk/reward system, while being 'realistic'
I’m glad you said that actually. My idea was to make fuses 4-6 seconds long with a random chance of it being 4, 5 or 6. So you can cook it for only couple seconds reliably before being nervous it’ll blow up in your hand. That way it’ll mimic real life grenades that cook for 2 seconds while also making sure people don’t cheese grenades like in r6.
@@ryszakowy A lot of people get a lot of things completely wrong about firearms and military equipment anyway, no wonder they think this but if that is what they think it is they could cook that grenade for the next 5 years for that extra explosive power
Bullets go through trees. I’ve hoped this trope of bulletproof trees never transferred over to somebody getting their first weapon IRL and thinking because trees stop bullets in games, these trees between me and that busy highway will too. Yeah I know I know, but my counter argument will always be: There are people that are really that stupid.
Greatly depends on what you're shooting, what tree it is and how thick the trunk is I'd say. An oak certainly gives more protection than a pine. And Are you shooting a 9mm or a 7.62NATO...? But people overestimate how much protection something gives; same with brick walls..or dry-walls... LOL
I don't think you realise how dense trees are. Trees do stop bullets. Not every bullet will be stopped by every tree, but your average sized tree that can cover the width of your body is probably enough for your typical 5.56 or 5.45 to not go through. I would entrust my life to a tree, but in a pinch it's really good cover.
I feel that many people say "realism" when they mean "authenticity". For games or even "simulations" (which on PC are all also a type of game) you cannot have full realism. You want to have some playability with the game. I do like simulation games and I even endorse some mechanics that favor realism over gratification or playability (at least without knowing what you are doing). For example in ArmA3 I played in a unit as a sniper with ACE3 and advanced ballistics and wind and all that. It was quite a challenge not only to learn how to calculate a shot correctly, depending on weather, altitude, rifle, ammunition, gauging wind... also you have to know and master recon tactics, stealth, concealment, movement, knowledge of the equipment, calibration of the equipment (before you go on an OP!), terminal ballistics and proper radio communication.... But back to e.g. shooting: it is a real skill you have to acquire before you hit anything at say 800m plus. You need knowledge of how real world ballistics work and it takes time and training to get that. And for me that is the fun about simulations. You need to read, watch videos, do some training on your own to learn and grow until you can do what you are supposed to do proficiently. In one training with a mate where I was supposed to teach someone how to shoot as a marksman/sniper. I put man-sized targets out at different ranges. We went through how to set up the shot and what setting to use for the scope. As he was failing to hit a target at 1.3 km out I had a look at wind speed and direction and hit on first shot. He was impressed. (I was, too because 1300m with wind is pushing it to hit on the first shot) xD Or doing recon on a public server, staying undetected and radoing enemy movement and positions to your team. When somebody notices what you are doing and he's actually saying "is somebody ACTUALLY doing recon? Nice!". That's the gratification you need. ;) Other example flight sims. Yes I actually want to push every button in that cockpit. I want the whole plane to behave as realistic as possible. I like the flight preparation part where you have to create your flight plan look at the weather, check the plates and procedures, take 30 minutes to start up the plane and program your flight and then actually do it. It takes hours and hours of learning, but that's the actual fun part. Or back to ArmA3 and staying with planes: there are mods that try to simulate the planes and helicopters and their systems to a much greater extend than "press E to start". You actually have to know what you are doing and which buttons to press to start up that bad boy let alone to fly it. Targeting systems are much more sophisticated, so it takes some actual knowledge and skill to do it. I like that, but I get there are different kinds of people who are repelled by it. Same way I am repelled by arcady instant gratification games like the modern Battlefield titles. In the end game creation is all about a proper balance of realism and authenticity. Simulations tend a bit more towards realism, even though if some mechanics are punishing to the player, those games are inherently more "niche". While other games are all about playability, action and for a mass audience (so accessible, instant gratification, colorful, ...). What they all should be is authentic in some way or the other. (Or actually embrace the "silliness" fully, which in itself can also create authenticity, as long as the game is coherent in itself).
Then there are games like VTOL VR which let you press every button in the plane and has some complicated flight mechanics, but is still simplified to the point of being able to pick up and play it
The biggest problem is that everyone means something different by the term "realism" or even "authenticity", it's not good enough to pull a "well actually the dictionary says...". So to even have a useful conversation about it everyone involved has to agree with that the term means. I take it as representing a setting/theme/thing as accurately as possible within the given context. Some would call that "authenticity" but I think that term is way too subjective. For example you can have a super realistic flight sim that models and simulates everything from flight check to flight nearly 1:1 with reality, and not have to also simulate 100s of hours of training or your pilot having to take a dump. That's one of the biggest pushbacks I see against realism in games, "well why not have your character randomly die from a heart attack or need to piss and shit lol you're so dumb". When making a game realistic you have to choose what to include and what to omit based on what's relevant to the setting. Then even the things you want to represent in the game you have to abstract away. You can't represent controlling gun recoil with a mouse looking at a 2D screen realistically, it's impossible. However if you accurately show that X gun is harder to control than Y gun, and that semi auto and burst is easier to control than full auto, that's as realistic as you can get and the recoil mechanics are then largely irrelevant. Whether or not realism enhances a game depends on the genre, theme and target audience for the game and how its implemented. As long as it "looks" and "feels" real and the outcomes are realistic, you have a realistic game. But even that conclusion has problems because some idiot that doesn't have any knowledge or understanding on the topic will think anything is realistic.
Already dropped it on the mod page but thanks for the update. First time playing with your new recoil system and I adore it. Finally makes my beloved stock 74u to be usable. You're a saint in the modding community my friend.
I originally had a line in here about how language takes time to stabilize, so one thing that requires deliberation is people deciding what words are appropriate to use after the ones they're accustomed to have been hijacked by haters to be used against them
Yo! I'm an Unreal Dev. This is Solid insight. ~Immersion~ we always talk about people using that as an adjective. "The game is so immersive!." you mean you feel immersed. Probably because the devs did a good job doing exactly what you've explained in this video! Your a Legend.
5:25 I think a big thing with "realistic" controls like that games gunplay is that a keyboard already isn't realistic you don't have to remember 62 buttons to operate a gun IRL you just move so I think "realistic" controls and gunplay can only really exist in hand tracked VR where you actually can use everything just by interacting with it
That's not how I see it. "You just move" because you've remembered the 62 things you need to do. If you hand a person a gun who's never seen one before and tell them to reload it, I bet it feels a lot like playing receiver
ive been doing game design for a game I want to make (maybe in 15-20 years when I have the resources to hire people) and I've had the same problem with realism. my game is set in the future, with artillery tanks, jets with anti personnel tech, and whatnot, but also being set in a dnd type aesthetic (despite never having played dnd). so I can be a wizard dude casting shadow money wizard gang spells and simultaneously shoot down squads with my lmg blickly. but realism was the biggest problem. the setting of the game is a player built pvp society, kinda like rust, but incentivizing working together far more than just killing and stealing, where a players life has far more value. and so while I was having trouble with figuring out how to encourage players to make huge teams of 100s of people and make it work and easy to use, I also have to worry about the realism esque problems more, such as how to give these futuristic weapons quirks that make them feel different and FUTURISTIC, while also keeping them making sense, such as a weapon that can adjust to different ammo types and different mags, (like a western weapons that can adjust to eastern magazines, so you can scavenge the enemies, even though there will be no factions) while also keeping it fun. I found that you can make up your own scenarios to create your OWN realistic settings to make sense. one example of this is how I figured out how to balance sniping. sniping is a huge problem in almost every game, as its not at all fun for the player killed by it, and anyone can do it. I decided to fix it by attacking the "anyone can do it" part. I made it really realistic and true to life, with Coriolis effect, range finding, wind, etc. but then I found that snipers are easily spotted by the futuristic thermal tech, especially drones. to help combat this, I came up with a system that the more clothing you have on and the thicker it is, the less intense you appear on the thermal imaging, as well as a harness that greatly reduces your thermal signatures, requiring the drone operator to have a sharp eye to be able to find you, meaning the person who get the first shot is the person more masterful at their craft. both of these are examples of how real life realism can be better suited for fun, intregral gameplay. I guess what im sputtering about and trying to say, is that I relate with everything you said, and this video helped solidify my mindset of realism + problem, can still = fun, instead of realism + fun=not fun
this video exposed my cognitive dissonances about tarkov's game balances. Still dont like painkillers in the game, but now I need to articulate why its unbalanced rather than "it isnt realistic"
Tarkov falls more into the simulator genre. For simulators the argument that "it isn't realistic" is perfectly valid, and one of the stronger arguments because being as realistic as possible is the entire point of simulators.
the problem with tarkov is that it doesn't seem to understand the difference between a lethal blow and incapacitating blow a GSWor two is incapacitating but probably not lethal unless you blow through the head or upper spine and yet a couple hollowpoints... you can also sort of just heal off horrific injuries that would need level 4 trauma centers to fix, and stuff that a level 4 might not be able to save you from even if you were teleported right onto the table? pop an AI2, g2g, bring on the next guy.
@@bmc8982 But Tarkov was never meant to be a hardcore survival milsim. Raids are on average, 40 minutes long. That doesn't leave enough time for all the long-lasting components you mentioned and those components would only make the game more of a chore to play. The mechanics we have now give us the need to respond to trauma within the scope of the raid without being too complicated or lengthy. It's like what Squad did. We have unrealistic mechanics that create the desired output. That's not to say that anything is realistic, I'm not trying to argue that, I'm just saying that we get an outcome well suited for Tarkov by having certain mechanics that aren't 'realistic'. 40 minute raids suit Tarkov well and having to spend more time out of the fight would only make the game less enjoyable. We're playing Tarkov to do things that we can't do IRL after all. Not to mention that Tarkov's time goes by 6 times faster than IRL time. And trust me, the health system (before armor hitboxes at least) is the least influential of all the mechanics leading to the "chad meta" or "rat meta".
Painkillers if they were realistic in Trakov You have to check the date Check the mg so you don’t OD and die. Know your characters limit. Character gets higher then a kite and goes unconscious. Yea Tarkov left it at just heal healthpoints for a good reason so hou don’t need to essentially go to med school just to learn how to right click pills in a video game.
I'm glad that you mentioned Receiver, been a fan of the game where you reload with the entire left half of your keyboard for a long time. Eventually you get used to it and can do it real real quick-- got an achievement in Receiver 2 for loading the gun in under a second with all of those controls!
It wouldn't work for all shooters, but I could honestly see it working for a few styles. Receiver is already somewhat survival horror adjacent and I think you could absolutely have similar weapon mechanics work with zombies or similar in another setting that's very deliberate, low ammo, high demand for precision. The issue is that by making the game so detailed in that one area, it's basically ALL the game can support. Not that shooting isn't 99% of your interactions with stuff in most games anyway... but it's nice to have other options.
One of the best examples of realism in games is the doom mod "hideous destructor", a mod who took everything to the extreme. Every gun have to be manually operated and can jam, just a few bullets will left you bleeeding to the death on the ground, everything have weight, a a single fireball Will let you panicking as you try to take of your armor to aply a medkid as you quickly die a painfull death. You are not the doom guy, you are a normal marine.
4:13 slight correction. Although having tourniquets on forever is not realistic many studies (particularly those from the times in Afghanistan and Iraq) have shown that you are very unlikely to lose a limb due to tourniquet use, and that having a tourniquet on for up to 3.5 hours has no lasting repercussions (the vast majority of the time). This is relatively new research and explains why tourniquets have made such a resurgence as in these conflicts I previously mentioned they singlehandedly saved the lives of countless soldiers, many who could not receive the appropriate medical care for many hours yet did not lose the limb.
i think what most people want when they say realistic is low ttk and slower movement. for example hell let loose, its not exatly historically accurate nor have complex mechanics but still it feels like it could be real since its authentic and consistent like you mentioned in the video. same goes for cod 2 and 4 and i think those games are what people want when they say cod needs to be more "realistic". they arent "REALISTIC" but they are "AUTHENTIC".
I actually have a problem with the association of low TTK and tactical games. Traditionally they've just not had health regen because if you'll never get the HP you lose back without seeing a medic or something you'll be a lot more careful with how you position yourself. Dying in two hits to everything is just frustrating
i've made the same association myself. My logic is that lower ttk makes things like positioning, angles, and teamplay more emphasized, and aim, and movement less emphasized @@icarusgaming6269
@@icarusgaming6269 I personally think the comment still stands, since it didn’t specify what TTK they enjoy, just that faster is better for them. I think around 5 to 7 shots could be a good balancing ballpark for someone who’s got decently light armor and is being shot at with 5.56, but I’ve got no clue how realistic that is, it just feels somewhat right. Otherwise, yeah, everything being a two-shot is bad game design, and I haven’t seen a game that did that tho.
@@icarusgaming6269 its not even realistic... technically. realism is random, inherently. xcom was right with its 50-200% modifier. sometimes bullets fail to expand or yaw, sometimes you score a shot to the CNS and just evaporate them. Maybe pain drops them, maybe they tank it. ans that's not even getting into armor or how ammo does through cover...
@@TheButterAnvil id argue that it doesn't emphasize team play maybe in support of, but not directly low killtimes encourages inherently positional battle. hold an angle, other guy comes atound the corner, he doesn't know where you are, BAM. Dropped. higher killtimes means that theres a chance of getting away unless maybe multiple people open up on them or your aim is good. guy turns corner, you light four into his chestplate, he staggers back with maybe low health or something but he's alive and counterplay might happen. or you might displace and push while he's on the ropes. such and soforth.
It's funny how simulating the fear of being shot at through desaturation and other effects by the squad dev is not necessary in VR. The same effects he tried to make are simply just there in VR. Like running into an enemy and trying to shoot is very panic inducing and I usually miss my shots. When I am the first one to spot an enemy and move in a good position to shoot them they seem so sluggish. Or even shell shock. A team of 2 guys tried to flush me out of a building's rooftop because we heard each other's footsteps and I waited behind the ladder. One tried to throw a smoke grenade and ran back when he saw me. I jumped down and shot him when I saw the other guy in the corner of the next room. We both looked at each other for a second and he looked terrified. When I started swinging my gun around towards him and started shooting prematurely he got focused and shot me first. Gaming, whether flat screen or in VR is memorable because of these tense moments.
Fun fact about tourniquets: you can leave one on for over 48 hours and the limb will just have that numb tingly feeling for a while. Worst case scenario of it staying on after that but not long enough for the limb to just rot is that feeling never goes away. But at least you keep and can still use the limb. If they can reattach severed limbs a tourniquet is fine
Fantastic video that really understands "realism" in games. I'd like to add that for 8:40 the blurry vision doesn't just "represent" the fear. In a practical sense it prevents the player from ignoring suppression because they're not actually scared for their life. In video games because people aren't scared they rush into buildings and stand in the middle of open fields and generally just do things that would be considered crazy if you were to do it in a real battle. You can't make the player scared so to combat this you can reduce their control so that it's difficult to respond in "gamey" manner.
The question of realism is only important if it's something that the devs want to achieve. Tarkov is supposed to be "as realistic as playable". Given that, the medical system makes sense, but stuff like old recoil did not. And they definitely should add the ability to cook grenades, and make it realistic. No one is gonna actually do that, because fuses are very inconsistent and it's pointless to attempt because of that, but it will be funny when someone attempts to do so and either succeeds or dies trying.
I think Butter had a line about how the way Nikita talks about the game has changed over time that didn't make the cut. I definitely remember seeing that quote
@@tiberius8390 Siege and Tarkov have RGO/RGD impact grenades. It's just they're a bit harder to get in Tarkov (banned from the flea market) and do such little damage in R6, they get used less for one reason or another.
It's annoying on FO4 modding scene. Some people were like "it's not realistic", or "in dire need of realism", on a mod that they have the option not to install, on a mod that people poured their heart into. Like just go get a real damn gun.
@@Rookie417 And I get to complain, on people's complaint -- see how fun it is to get bitched at? Like why are you complaining on an optional mod nobody is forcing you to install, on an obviously not-for-you changes? There's people quick to point out "we all have preferences" implying I should respect them, yet here they are not respecting others' preferences.
@@The6thMessengerBecause there’s no option to filter out mods that add M4 with 78 attachments and cool plasma gun from fallout 2 I dont actually go out and complain to these people I understand M4 with 78 attachments isn’t for me and i’d rather not be a dick about it lol But I’d love if nexus could filter out the tacticool stuff so I can get mods that fit the aesthetic that I personally think fallout has.
I completely get pretend healing in games even in like tarkov I do not want to take one shot and then be bedbound for 4 in game months or have my character die permanently from gangrene also the amount of sound you make doing things ik that's needed for gameplay
Gun bros often complain about how janky guns sound in games when the player is running, from a certain perspective I get it cause like, if your magazine is making sounds like that it's loose and its gonna create some problems but at the same time it's very useful for knowing if somebody is aiming down sights or gunning and running you know?
For me, theres two types of realism. Detail realism and general realism. Detail realism is bulletholes appearing on your character in GTA 5 when they're shot. General realism is your character dying from one shot and you having to wait 6 real world months for him to recover. Detail realism is your singers mouth in Rock Band 2 moving accuratly to the songs lyrics. General realism is them dubbing over the original vocals with a shitty singer cause no human can perfectly mimic every vocalist on earth. Detail realism makes the game more beliveable, more immersive, but it doesn't make it realistic. Otherwise, only realistic games would have them, but detail realism can exist in fantasy universes and over the top cartoonish universes. General realism is mimicing real life to a fault, grinding the game to a halt and making it unfun. (Unless it's a simulator, those are designed to be obnoxiously realistic.)
(Note, this is my take on authenticity and realism) Authenticity -how realistic it *feels,* and the “simple realism” +CoD WaW wasn’t *that* realistic, but it feels realistic because WW2 was very chaotic +BF1’s MP18 can make sense in simple realism because it existed in said time period and were produced Realism -how realistic it actually is, and the “more detailed realism” +in CoD WaW, the main German explosive weapon is the Panzershreck despite it being the one shot Panzerfaust. +BF1’s MP18 shouldn’t be the main weapon for literally everyone.
I think the closest I've seen to realistic healing in a game, is in the game Barotrauma with the Neurotrauma addon enabled. Healing isn't as simple as using a consumable and watching you're hit points go back up. There are a large variety of injuries you could sustain, and a large variety of treatments you need to account for. If you have an injury, you'll have to open up the medical interface to see the damages. What sort of injuries you've sustained, what body part they are on, and what symptoms you may be having. Some afflictions are invisible to the player and require a medical scanner to assess. Let's assume you have a gunshot wound. For treatment, you may need forceps to remove foreign bodies. You then need to stich the wound. The stiches don't effectively stop the bleeding, so you need to apply a bandage over it. You may suffer arterial bleeding, which cannot simply be bandaged, and needs to be clamped. Blood you've already lossed may need to be recovered using blood packs. The blood packs have to match you're blood type or you risk sepsis. Using too much can result in hypertension, which needs to be treated separately with drugs. The gunshot may also dislocate or fracture bones. A dislocation requires resetting the bone with a wrench. A fracture requires a cast be used or gypsum applied. If organs are severely damaged, you need surgery, which you usually can't do alone, and must rely on another player to do. Surgery is a whole nother complicated process. After all this is done, you're hit points will not have fully recovered. All you did was prevent the condition from getting worse. You have to give it time for you're hit points to regenerate. Resting speeds up the healing process. While you are recovering, you'll need to monitor your vitals as you might suffer from other afflictions later down the line (i.e. infections).
I loaded up neurotrauma for a few test games and then realized I'd have to get my whole friend group to read a medical guide and then uninstalled it because I know it wasn't the level of detail we'd want to deal with. Definitely a cool mod and something that *I* personally would enjoy the systems of.
I love neurotrauma Dislocation, nah your ass doesn't need anesthetic. Shits valuable like my backpack full of morphine and a small organ harvesting kit Being a neurotrauma medic is truly an experience. Bringing someone back from the brink with very limited time and resources
After the ICO update from squad I noticed I had played less and less of it simply because I did not enjoy the gun play and when I did play I preferred to be on a vehicle simply because I found the gun play sucked I don’t care about “realism” I just enjoyed the slower paced (compared to most other shooters) well rounded gun play of the game along with the community that had me coming back
Playing Squad like it's COD basically was always viable. If you COD it out you basically monopolize the force of violence and cause chaos for otherwise organized defenses or even attacks.
TH-cam just randomly recommended this at me even though I've never seen your channel before, but holy shit I'm sold. Salient and unbiased points made on a controversial topic in a way with humor that's integrated in a way that doesn't feel overbearing or out of place... while still being really fuckin funny? Yeah, that's a like and a sub, looking forward to seeing what else you've got up your sleeve.
To me what matters isn’t realistic gameplay, but it’s that the games look realistic in their presentation like how insurgency sandstorm (RIP new world entertainment) did it or how cod world at war did it where they took some creative liberties when it came to their source material (real war footage) but still respected it and the game had such a somber atmosphere
It's really refreshing to see a video about realism in games that doesn't just rehash every popular argument and actually brings something new to the discussion.
I think an interesting point which I don't see brought up a lot is that breaking from "realism" in a game can be an important counter to the inherent jank in a lot of video games. Going to RoN for an example, having guns dropped by suspects being highlighted by a magic yellow border is entirely unrealistic, but it works to make the experience more "real" by removing the jank of the guns clipping into objects or the differences in how light works in videogames and real life. Your character would have an understanding of where the gun is that cannot really be communicated to you as a player, so an un-real element is put in to bridge the gap. It's like the suppression mechanics in Squad. In order to get the same outcome that suppression has in real life, making the player not want to stick their head out, they have to disinsentivise the player from doing that. They can achieve this by taking actions that feel Authentic, although may not be exactly what someone really would experience if they were suppressed.
It's pretty simple. Realism is one of several elements that relate to enjoyment. There are other elements that matter more, and so people don't mind when realism is traded off against those things. But people are sick of the modern trend of realism being traded off against things that matter *less*. It's one thing to trade realism when balance is a factor, or when fun is a factor. It's another thing to trade realism so you can sell microtransactions, or manipulate people into playing longer, or simply because you want to appeal to some diversity agenda that your core fans don't give a shit about. Very few people want or expect a perfectly realistic game, because they know that would come at the expense of fun, balance, accessibility etc. But they want as much realism as is *within* the boundaries and stylistic choices of the game, and don't want their immersion broken because some suit trying to appeal to the LGBT community or sell more GameBucks(tm) has decided that what the fans want plays second fiddle to the whims of corporate overlords.
I think MW2(2022) had the best balance between "realism" and "fun gameplay" for its multiplayer, MW3 on the other hand was tailor made to be completely unrealistic in basically every regard so it would appeal to the adderal snorting, G-fuel huffing, ADHD sweat lords that think it's "fun" to be running around like Danny from 'The Wild Thornberrys' because they can't win fights unless they're changing their characters hit box placement every half second between jumping, sliding, dolphin diving, and other broken ass movement mechanics.
You're a legend. Most people say that to the most youtubers that put out little bit over average content on TH-cam. BUT in other hand.. you're the one of THE RARE, sub 15K sub channel that puts out sub million sub level content. And also joking around? HELL YEA.
for tarkov, add cooking grenades, but only for ai scavs, and player scavs. reason: They are amatures and saw it in a movie. They don't know its gonna frag themself. *AND EVEN BETTER* Make their grenade timers +/-20% so people *will* blow themselves up if they try it
my biggest complaint is games that advertise as milsims and ultra realistic while artificially increasing difficulty such as recoil with guns that have none and actively reject real world experience and advice from soldiers and other experienced people or when games go strictly by the book even though different units have a different SOP and are more lenient on what goes on the soldiers weapon or how the task is completed
You missed A VERY IMPORTANT aspect of realism in games: Predictability and Skill transfer. If you play a game that has an attempt into realism and implement realistic mechanics, and move on to a new game, your learning time will be considerable reduced and you will be able to translate part of the skills you atainned from previous games as well as have a general sense of how things should behave. This is quite real with car simulators alkready. An interesting example would be how tarkov nerfed grenade launchers by making them more realistic: 1) Grenades fired from a launcher do not arm within less than 14m away, making them useless for CQC like they used to be spammed in BF. Likewise, armor actually protects well from grenade shrapnel in the torso, most of your damage occur on your leg if you are further away from 5m. I always expect this sort of thing in tactical shooters, as well as low lethality from RPG-7 HEAT rockets not having a wide cone of shrapnel. However, stupid arcadeish games like cod, usually completely nerf explosives in a way that doesn't make sense. It also is EXTREMELY INFURIATING how COD has been shifting towards giving advantage to Control players since the advent of crossplay. Nevermind the aggressive AIM assist, Headshot damage has been severely reduced since even with Aim assist, headshotting is more difficult with controllers than with mouse. What you do? Nerf Headshots! You would expect a .50bmg to one shot ANYONE in the head. NOPE. But wait! They brought back one-hit-kills with Snipers in warzone! The .50bmpg kills in one shot? No, because it is semi-auto, but the .300 winmag rifle does! ABSOLUTELY MIND BLOWING! Any other FPS game that does not look like a psychodelic cartoon and has a .50bmg, I'd expect it to one-shot ANYONE. T WOULD BE ACCEPTABLE for "balancing" however, if the enemy was heavily armored and had some sort of thick welding mask on it. OF COURSE REALISTICALLY that would never stop a .50, but at least it would "make sense" in the translation to game logic. (I'd also expect the 7.62x51 rifles to one shot ANYONE in the head) COD is just absolutely garbage. I hate cod. I miss BF3 days. I want a sweet sweet middle ground between BF3 and squad/tarkov game with at least proper explosive, ballistic and a somewhat coherent armor + helmet system. I really like Tarkov level of realism, but It still is too janky in control and movement, (although I absolutely LOATH the crackhead parkour olympics that is cod) and the absolutely brutal RPG item-based progression and permadeath is not something someone with less than 8 hours of free time per week can afford to get into. I'm an orphan of good fps multiplayer game, unfortunately.
I like games with authenticity and don't try so hard to be "realistic." Games should always be fun first and foremost, and authenticity can enhance the experience. You articulated perfectly well what I wanted to say about the "realism" argument. Siege was never a realistic game, but it was authentic (in the beginning). Reinforcements, spawning every round, etc. are all gameplay convivences so the player can have fun. The launch aesthetic was authentic and helped the counter-terrorism feeling despite the unrealistic gameplay. Any discussion of realism in Siege is pointless because the game was never realistic.
You won't ever have the realism of having your body smell like a wet dog during the day then have your cloth solidified by your drying sweat at night and not being able to smell yourself after three days. Maybe we need to add in ingrown hair, bad sleeping posture and holes in your favorite sock causing blisters 🤣
If literally any videogame was realistic, it wouldn't be fun or popular. People need to shut up about realism and accept good gameplay. Fantastic video btw
easily the best video i've seen on this topic. i think gabe newell's quote from the half-life doc is a great starting point (the TL;DR is that "realism isn't fun") - but if you start making your game and want it to be realistic, then you can add some - but you have to be careful not to make it overly realistic otherwise it's not fun.
I think the TL;DR is more that realism isn't _intrinsically_ fun on its own. Realism can invoke a feeling of authenticity, which can be fun - it can add depth, which can be fun - etc. But in none of those cases is the realism fun purely by virtue of being realistic.
swat teams did use the g36....maybe incredibly rare but in the 90's it did happen. not even sure what you were trying to say about the use of black tips...which are used situationally depending on the enemy combatants as well.
When it comes to games, the "realism" argument is immediately thrown out the window because ITS A VIDEO GAME, there is no way to make a game 100% "realistic"
This is an exceptional commentary on what has become ever-so-common in the 'realism' shooter scene. There were definitely some familiar places when you broke down the misuse of the term. Players tend to get caught up on the "but irl" argument to the point of forgetting why we're making and playing games in the first place. Much of the burden of game design involves protecting players from optimizing the fun out of gameplay. Squad's ICO is my favorite example of game mechanics being used to reach a desired effect. It is a neat response to player tendencies, given that one can't properly convey fear for one's life or the nuances of real-world weapon manipulation through a computer game. At least not yet
I think a lot of people want to think that they know what's realistic or not to feel smart without knowing what's realistic. These people want to think that the games they like are realistic because they want to feel smart for playing a game, these people feel smart saying they like realism when in reality, a hyper realistic game would be very boring 90% of the time.
For the record, I was never a "CoD is the same every year" as a derogatory because if it ain't broke, don't fix it. You don't need to re-invent to wheel. And you wonder why CoD is in the shape it is today and has been for years.
Squad makes me feel like im forced to play a role kid of like a of like a stormtrooper in a star wars movie, they want combat to "look" good rather than playing well and having the rest be also cinematic, i think the older BF games did this very well.
@@TheONLYFeli0 The game does not play like real combat it's a video game and it's is over dramatic gunplay over exaggerated to the point where he doesn't sell the idea that you are a trained solider.
i think squad plays quite well, suppression works, and feels authentic to me, comparing to my blank firing drills. yeah sure everyone was able to easily pass the target shooting drills with good results on the range. but that did not mean you were able to aim that well when you attacked thru enemy position through some thicket. fire and maneuver works with massing as many bullets in enemy direction so he cant shoot back. plus youre always checking where the rest of your guys are, most of the time you're shooting into depth and you may not even see the enemy that you attack because the enemy was on the other side of the line. lot of scenarios started with a hike with your gear bag what was 20kg. then we hid them, and then we played thru whatever was set up for us. shits tiring, aiming your gun takes a moment. gameplay mechanics make the ''realistic scenario'' almost viable, but fireteam based fire and movement actually does shine in game. you are not poking your head out when a mg pours down on you. but maybe you can suppress that mg with your friend and rest of the squad can kill him or whatever. winning a firefight feels good, and i dont really feel bad if im not able to take out 3 guys in the open because they magdump me. if you want to play point and click adventure enjoy cs
Just want to make a correction, actually some cops did carry full size Colt Pythons pretty commonly, mostly in the 80s-90s. My uncle was a highway patrolman and carried one.
People need to realize that while most real life guns have negligible recoil, humans are very inaccurate. Mouse and keyboard allow humans to very precise and accurate, combine that with realistic recoil and you get gunplay that is nothing more than point and click. We miss most shots in combat situations in real life with negligible recoil, that would not be the case with how precise/accurate virtual input methods allow us to be. Its a balancing decision and the devs don't need to be told its unrealistic, they know it is, and it is that way for a reason.
Let's say, hypothetically, that you were making a stupid argument about realism on the internet. Now, just as an example, I would have to, theoretically, interject and explain why your hypothetical stance is based on a misconception
I regularly handle firearms. On a daily basis for work (see my shorts for proof). I shoot them often too (Required every 6 months, on top of my own personal shooting). Many, many, many MILSIMs sort of get a lot of guns wrong. The fact that Tarkov and Squad’s recoil is WAY worse than IRL is still kinda wild to me. Even a Bipod deployed SAW is outrageously higher than the real thing. But I can turn my brain off and go: “Haha, gun go brrr” What kills me is the people who play MILSIMs and be acting like Subject Matter Experts on tactics and firearms, but end up spreading Fuddery. Even TH-camr’s are guilty of this, where they might weigh their opinions on Military subjects without having the experience to back it up. Great video tho, really gonna change how I see Tarkov after this haha
Thankfully this tarkov wipe has made all recoil significantly weaker, making handguns especially much more optimal to use. But pre- this wipe every gun had the recoil of an icbm.
Actual realism Vs it's feels realistic The Squad Devs said themselves it's not realistic, they call it unrealistic input (gunplay) but realistic output (overall firefights), press X doubt about the realistic outcome. Bf4 feels isn't realistic like squad, but it feels more realistic with attack Helis and overall everything Realism is also a spectrum, like imo Squad has gone too far off realism, it should be closer. Just like bf1 isn't realistic, but isn't unrealistic either, it's on a spectrum in between.
I guess that's subjective because Battlefield was always over the top for me, nothing about it every seemed that realistic just chaotic grand scale sandbox of war.
@@l.3626 It's a bunch of people sitting in trenches while robots with explosives attached crash into everything. Kinda lame to me, wouldn't make a fun game for most people.
@@queuedjar4578 yeah bro it's not only like that, it's a part for sure but Ukraine war is everything. And battlefield puts pretty much everything together into a small package for people with imagination
nowadays, the police departments (high budget ones) use drones to clear the entry way and incapacitate the suspects If possible, and then send in the Swat operators to secure the premises. And it's not a 5 man team, its at least 10 swat operators and all of them are armed to the feet.
If you want realism; Ukraine is looking for volunteers currently for a totally realistic combat experience. If you want authenticity, join Karma's Arma 3 server. If you want unbalanced gameplay where your opponent is always at a lower disadvantage than you are, congrats, you're a Tarkov streamer.
realism is a means to an end and shouldn't be the end itself. You make a parts game realistic because you want to acheive something, most often you are looking to increase immersion, but maybe you add realism for the challenge, or to force players to work together e.t.c When a game is trying to be realistic just for the sake of it, that sucks
ive been doing game design for a game I want to make (maybe in 15-20 years when I have the resources to hire people) and I've had the same problem with realism. my game is set in the future, with artillery tanks, jets with anti personnel tech, and whatnot, but also being set in a dnd type aesthetic (despite never having played dnd). so I can be a wizard dude casting shadow money wizard gang spells and simultaneously shoot down squads with my lmg blickly. For context, the setting of the game is a player built pvp society, kinda like rust, but incentivizing working together far more than just killing and stealing, where a players life has far more value. and so while I was having trouble with figuring out how to encourage players to make huge teams of 100s of people and make it work and easy to use, I also have to worry about the realism esque problems more, such as how to give these futuristic weapons quirks that make them feel different and FUTURISTIC, while also keeping them making sense, such as a weapon that can adjust to different ammo types and different mags, (like a western weapons that can adjust to eastern magazines, so you can scavenge the enemies, even though there will be no factions) while also keeping it fun. I found that you can make up your own scenarios to create your OWN realistic settings to make sense. one example of this is how I figured out how to balance sniping. sniping is a huge problem in almost every game, as its not at all fun for the player killed by it, added on to the fact that anyone can snipe with ease. I decided to fix it by attacking the "anyone can do it" part. I came up with an idea utilizing really realistic and true to life sniping physics, with Coriolis effect, range finding, wind, etc. but then I found that snipers are easily spotted by the futuristic thermal tech, especially drones (which would create another unfair experience to snipers in my game, when they should feel rewarded for learning the ins and outs of sniping) to help combat this, I came up with a system that the more clothing you have on and the thicker it is, the less intense you appear on the thermal imaging, as well as a harness that greatly reduces your thermal signatures, requiring the drone operator to have a sharp eye to be able to find you, meaning the person who get the first shot is the person more masterful at their craft. both of these are examples of how real life realism can be better suited for fun, intregral gameplay. I guess what im sputtering about and trying to say, is that I relate with everything you said, and this video helped solidify my mindset of realism + problem, can still = fun, instead of realism + fun=not fun Thanks! 😊
One way I deal with big changes in games is the “welp, this is game now, i will play it and see how it feels” approach. Is it enjoyable, yes or no? Usually it’s yes, games can be enjoyable even with flaws and I like to look past them and enjoy myself.
Ngl. I've come across your channel suddenly through recommendation on the topic of Insurgencies amd Revolutions,forgot the name,but all I can say is that I've enjoyed it and am currently bingewatching your content and by this video,wanted to say that I'm subbed and that based on the topic of this video...I don't gibeafuk,bc. I just want to have fun playing games and have ArmA3 if I truely desired ultrarealism,soo...nice video,GG✌️
This is a goofy question, but what area in STALKER GAMMA/Anomaly was the clip at 4:15 recorded in? I've been trying to find something that constitutes a range in the game can't find it for the life of me. I know there is a range with targets but can't find it - so I'd love to know where this is.
this brought some insight to my general views. i used to love r6 but the only way i could explain why ive grown to avoid it has been "its gotten too arcady and like overwatch in feel" but this gave me actual ways to discus my position on the games i play. now if i could just find people to play the game style i prefer, id be set, lol
on the topic of cooking grenades, you don't do it because the fuse times are like anywhere between 3 and 10 seconds. You are playing russian roulette every time you do it.
THIS I've seen people complain about how the game should or shouldn't be realistic while forgetting that games are meant to be fun to play, not realistic. Things in a game are designed based on what would be fun to play with given what experience the game wants to provide, thats why even such dedicated simulators like DCS omit things irrelevant to the core gameplay loop of having fun with a plane/helicopter. I will definitely be sending this video to people who complain about realism or lack thereof in games, thank you. This also helped me make my own understanding of it coherent, because I felt something was off with new COD MW3 campaign missions (other than the horrid writing), but realism wouldn't fit for an explanation, since COD was never realistic - but authenticity, consistency and immersiveness are definitely a factor.
"games are meant to be fun to play, not realistic" I don't agree with that because people find "fun to play" completely subjective to each other. Some people actually enjoy having to work together in order to fight a group of enemy. Some others prefer to act like Rambo, solo-ing a squad of 6 or 7 people and coming out victorious. The issue isn't that game shouldn't be realistic. It's for game studios to actually market their games, with whatever level of realism they aim for, towards the intended audience. Squad did this poorly. It was trying to be a shooter game where it placed a lot of emphasis on teamwork and coordination. Their slogan literally had these in it. Yet their updates progressively got worse, only accommodating more casual players who didn't want to learn to cooperate and just wanted to Rambo their ways.
@@triparadox.c I don't disagree with you. Every game is fun to play in it's own way that appeals to certain people, regardless of the level of realism it claims. What I meant by that is that games should be fun to play within their design, as in the intended idea by the developer of how the game should be played. Realism in this case is just as much of a tool to make the game fun to play as anything else. A realistic damage system may fit perfectly in one game and make the game worse in another game.
10:42 I’ve read the manual being referenced (Grenades and Pyrotechnic Signals With Change 1) and it specifically says which grenades can be milked, including the M67 FRAG. Other documents give specific instances where soldiers should train “milking”. In practice it’s a different story, but I think the way you are portraying this document is deliberately misleading.
I'd say adding cooking grenades would be fine, but let the length of the grenade fuse be randomly generated between 3-5 seconds, just like real grenades
This reminds me of a video called "Ace Combat is a Simulator, but not of Reality" by "timmm", which also talks on the topic of games abandoning uncompromising realism for the sake of fun, and what a person dreaming of manning a fighter jet would imagine the experience to be than how it actually is. Good watch too lol
Very well put. I think this was well done and I enjoyed watching it and it highlighted some shortfalls and hypocrisy in my arguments. Thought provoking.
May i ask what game is in the video on 5:38 (great video by the way many people cant understand or doesnt want to understand realism in games or the word arcade)
I appreciate your ultimate opinion of "this is what the devs want" it really comes down to arguing with the developer more than the people who disagree with you in the end
Another point to mention for authenticity, is expectations of authenticity vs dev intentions around authenticity. One thing i always like to do when someone talks about realism and mentions the battlefield 5 trailer, is break down what alot of the "unrealistic " aspects are, and how they are realistic and period accurate. (Prosthetic is a post ww1 arm prosthetic which the UK was one of the first to innovate on and spin into wide spread production a d sale, clothes worn are a mix of ww1 and ww2 era british and a american clothes like british long coats, victorian era under shirts etc, the criket bat is accurate as the sport became popular in the UK during the 1920s and 30s and its not unrelistic a soldier would bring a bat with them as us soldiers would do so with baseball bats and footballs, and a british woman serving in combat while rare, was in fact, possible, though a specific set of events would have to happen, as many women in the UK served mostly rear echelon support and commanding/intelligence roles in europe. It goes to show that for that specifically, its not about actual realism or accuracy but about meeting expectations of realism, the trailer was over the top and very modern hollywood action movie esc (or just... a tarantino film) , so it doesnt fit with the expectations around ww2 games and media of 100% serious dark gritty and what people expect to see, but listening to the devs, their intentions were to have things like clothes and guns etc be period accurate but allow for more creative expression and fun gameplay chances, this is also why BFV had some very rare but real and period accurate weapons and vehicles in game, to showcase things people would never have heard of otherwise. Its honestly a shame how much hate that trailer got under the guise of "realism"
Actually, on extremities with spurting blood, always tourniquet first. It immediately stops the bleeding, and you can survive and have a high probability of not losing the leg, arm, etc. Generally, in combat, you're with a doctor and getting worked on faster than the civilian world. If you've ever had surgery, you've had a tourniquet on for hours.
I was wrong about the grenade thing. Multiple people pointed it out, the TM has a chart for which grenades you can cook, and the m67 can be cooked for 2 seconds, so my bad. Multiple people have also said Russian grenade fuses are untrustworthy, but I haven't verified that. Thanks for watching
Also I got the colt python comment too. The original script said desert eagle, I should have stuck with that
homie put the erratum in a pinned comment. very nice!
Hey sorry to grave dig your comment, but I'll confirm for you russian UZRGM style fuses are SUS asf. It's common to not carry them fused until you're actively on your infil or already on position. We've had dudes get injured from them spontaneously combusting in dudes pouches, pockets etc.
i’m surprised Nikita got hung up on that grenade thing when for a long time Tarkov recoil was quite literally more severe than real life recoil
He takes the weirdest things personally I fee like
So is Squad's. Maybe it's like that for a reason
@@icarusgaming6269because the most vocal milsimmers are the people who don’t have the motor skill to hit a stationary target with a baseball bat from 2 feet away so they want everybody else’s functioning fine motor control to be nerfed artificially so that everybody is forced to be equally as bad as them
@@DigitalShaolin Disrespectful, but better
@@DigitalShaolinI don't have bad aim, I don't have great aim, but I support the ICO in Squad because if I want to get out-aimed, I play Halo or Battlefield or Insurgency or CoD. If I want an authentic military shooter where I have to be OUTSMARTED and OUTGUNNED, I play Squad or Tarkov or Arma. I didn't like Squad being about better aim because it contrasted with the detail of the core gameplay. It just felt cheap.
Realisim is that one article by the onion where the next cod mw is about you maintaining humvees for 90% of the game
and watching the desert for hours
seems like you're actually trying to be dumb, you completely missed the point of what realism means. there are mechanic video games, and they're incredibly unrealistic. it's not the action or duration of the military games that is unrealistic. it's the fact that you can sprint with a heavy machine gun, jump off a building and land shots on someone 3 stories down, land and survive.
@@krebgurfson5732 good job summarising the video, op was being satirical
Knowing gamers today, it would have a nice niche audience and become a fotm game
And getting called by your wife for a divorce, also cleaning the bathroom
1. Do you want to feel like a soldier making decisions(having fun) or
2. do you want to read a 200-page manual to learn how to fly, use laser-guided bombs, fly formation, use the radio, etc.?(DCS) Yeah, afterwards, I also wonder why I picked 2; this stuff is painful
Me reading the 88 page how to guide on the new plane in vtol vr
Surprisingly enough, some people draw more from the accomplishment of learning how to use their aircraft then what the aircraft is actually doing. There is nothing wrong with that. That being said, a game/sim needs to set the expectation of how far in one axis they intend to go. They don’t need to always be fully towards one end, but they should always communicate it so they can work off community responses.
@@SwanADolphin *89 page thank you very much. Let's not try to make this game seem like a joke.
Both. I say both.
DCS is very fun, and lets make it clear there more around 500-page manuals and I also wonder why I've spent so much time reading them. still love the experience though, it's very rewarding.
I miss the days where we saw something very unrealistic, in a very fun game, and we just called it "game logic". We just called it a day and kept having fun, or played a different game.
very sincere shame how we aren't able to enjoy games for what they are, instead of what we want them to be.
Its all changed when we lick "Realism" Game for the first time, as the Graphics increased we saw things realistic and make us want realism more.
@@GloriG_C17bro its not about graphics?
People are too easily led by divisive culture war nonsense and everything has to be a point of division in some way including videogames. So much they lose their minds when they see a black man in a ww2 game and cry "muh realism". I wish people were more live and let live rather than thinking everything is a battle they have to fight
did you, watch the video?
The "don't cook a grenade" comes with an asterisk: You are told, when employing a grenade into something like a bunker, to actually cook the grenade for about a second before tossing it in to give the defenders less time to react to it. Otherwise NO!
Edit: videogames tend to not give their grenades random fuses. If your grenade had a potential for exploding much sooner than expected, you would not cook it. It would eliminate "timing" your grenade like R6S.
Now that you bring this up, it occurred to me that adding random fuses in grenades would not actually be too bad of a idea. If they add cooking back into R6 but then the grenades have slightly different fuse timers even if it is of the same type to simulate the slight inconsistency real life grenades can have, it could have the 'realism' of grenades being able to be cooked along with the 'realism' of the consequence of doing so. It could make a cool risk/reward system, while being 'realistic'
@@HEXW1N2 There's gonna be people complaining now saying it's just RNG and that takes off the skill. So, they will always complain.
I’m glad you said that actually. My idea was to make fuses 4-6 seconds long with a random chance of it being 4, 5 or 6. So you can cook it for only couple seconds reliably before being nervous it’ll blow up in your hand. That way it’ll mimic real life grenades that cook for 2 seconds while also making sure people don’t cheese grenades like in r6.
i believe people mistake cooking a grenade with holding a grenade without pin but with spoon
@@ryszakowy A lot of people get a lot of things completely wrong about firearms and military equipment anyway, no wonder they think this but if that is what they think it is they could cook that grenade for the next 5 years for that extra explosive power
Bullets go through trees. I’ve hoped this trope of bulletproof trees never transferred over to somebody getting their first weapon IRL and thinking because trees stop bullets in games, these trees between me and that busy highway will too.
Yeah I know I know, but my counter argument will always be: There are people that are really that stupid.
Greatly depends on what you're shooting, what tree it is and how thick the trunk is I'd say. An oak certainly gives more protection than a pine. And Are you shooting a 9mm or a 7.62NATO...? But people overestimate how much protection something gives; same with brick walls..or dry-walls... LOL
I don't think you realise how dense trees are. Trees do stop bullets. Not every bullet will be stopped by every tree, but your average sized tree that can cover the width of your body is probably enough for your typical 5.56 or 5.45 to not go through. I would entrust my life to a tree, but in a pinch it's really good cover.
the good ol cover vs concealment as well. concealment has its place@@tropicalfruit4571
In tarkov the penetration value of the round dictates whether or not you can shoot through trees
If someone equates a game to real life and gets killed cause of it, it's natural selection at it's finest
I feel that many people say "realism" when they mean "authenticity". For games or even "simulations" (which on PC are all also a type of game) you cannot have full realism. You want to have some playability with the game. I do like simulation games and I even endorse some mechanics that favor realism over gratification or playability (at least without knowing what you are doing).
For example in ArmA3 I played in a unit as a sniper with ACE3 and advanced ballistics and wind and all that. It was quite a challenge not only to learn how to calculate a shot correctly, depending on weather, altitude, rifle, ammunition, gauging wind... also you have to know and master recon tactics, stealth, concealment, movement, knowledge of the equipment, calibration of the equipment (before you go on an OP!), terminal ballistics and proper radio communication....
But back to e.g. shooting: it is a real skill you have to acquire before you hit anything at say 800m plus. You need knowledge of how real world ballistics work and it takes time and training to get that. And for me that is the fun about simulations. You need to read, watch videos, do some training on your own to learn and grow until you can do what you are supposed to do proficiently. In one training with a mate where I was supposed to teach someone how to shoot as a marksman/sniper. I put man-sized targets out at different ranges. We went through how to set up the shot and what setting to use for the scope. As he was failing to hit a target at 1.3 km out I had a look at wind speed and direction and hit on first shot. He was impressed. (I was, too because 1300m with wind is pushing it to hit on the first shot) xD
Or doing recon on a public server, staying undetected and radoing enemy movement and positions to your team. When somebody notices what you are doing and he's actually saying "is somebody ACTUALLY doing recon? Nice!". That's the gratification you need. ;)
Other example flight sims. Yes I actually want to push every button in that cockpit. I want the whole plane to behave as realistic as possible. I like the flight preparation part where you have to create your flight plan look at the weather, check the plates and procedures, take 30 minutes to start up the plane and program your flight and then actually do it. It takes hours and hours of learning, but that's the actual fun part.
Or back to ArmA3 and staying with planes: there are mods that try to simulate the planes and helicopters and their systems to a much greater extend than "press E to start". You actually have to know what you are doing and which buttons to press to start up that bad boy let alone to fly it. Targeting systems are much more sophisticated, so it takes some actual knowledge and skill to do it. I like that, but I get there are different kinds of people who are repelled by it. Same way I am repelled by arcady instant gratification games like the modern Battlefield titles.
In the end game creation is all about a proper balance of realism and authenticity. Simulations tend a bit more towards realism, even though if some mechanics are punishing to the player, those games are inherently more "niche". While other games are all about playability, action and for a mass audience (so accessible, instant gratification, colorful, ...). What they all should be is authentic in some way or the other. (Or actually embrace the "silliness" fully, which in itself can also create authenticity, as long as the game is coherent in itself).
Uh when I look at the sun in the game my eyes don't burn so Nicki Minaj dancing in call of doody is not unrealistic! It video game!
Too long read lster
Then there are games like VTOL VR which let you press every button in the plane and has some complicated flight mechanics, but is still simplified to the point of being able to pick up and play it
My name jeff
i aint reading allat
The biggest problem is that everyone means something different by the term "realism" or even "authenticity", it's not good enough to pull a "well actually the dictionary says...". So to even have a useful conversation about it everyone involved has to agree with that the term means. I take it as representing a setting/theme/thing as accurately as possible within the given context. Some would call that "authenticity" but I think that term is way too subjective.
For example you can have a super realistic flight sim that models and simulates everything from flight check to flight nearly 1:1 with reality, and not have to also simulate 100s of hours of training or your pilot having to take a dump. That's one of the biggest pushbacks I see against realism in games, "well why not have your character randomly die from a heart attack or need to piss and shit lol you're so dumb".
When making a game realistic you have to choose what to include and what to omit based on what's relevant to the setting. Then even the things you want to represent in the game you have to abstract away. You can't represent controlling gun recoil with a mouse looking at a 2D screen realistically, it's impossible. However if you accurately show that X gun is harder to control than Y gun, and that semi auto and burst is easier to control than full auto, that's as realistic as you can get and the recoil mechanics are then largely irrelevant.
Whether or not realism enhances a game depends on the genre, theme and target audience for the game and how its implemented. As long as it "looks" and "feels" real and the outcomes are realistic, you have a realistic game. But even that conclusion has problems because some idiot that doesn't have any knowledge or understanding on the topic will think anything is realistic.
Love your mod
Already dropped it on the mod page but thanks for the update. First time playing with your new recoil system and I adore it. Finally makes my beloved stock 74u to be usable. You're a saint in the modding community my friend.
I originally had a line in here about how language takes time to stabilize, so one thing that requires deliberation is people deciding what words are appropriate to use after the ones they're accustomed to have been hijacked by haters to be used against them
Thanks for your work on SP Tarkov
@@TheButterAnvil love u 2 bb
Yo! I'm an Unreal Dev. This is Solid insight. ~Immersion~ we always talk about people using that as an adjective. "The game is so immersive!." you mean you feel immersed. Probably because the devs did a good job doing exactly what you've explained in this video! Your a Legend.
❤️
Ah yes, another oft-misused word
@bhante1345 you ever try hell let loose ?
Yea i really love rs2
try spec ops the line@bhante1345
5:25 I think a big thing with "realistic" controls like that games gunplay is that a keyboard already isn't realistic
you don't have to remember 62 buttons to operate a gun IRL
you just move
so I think "realistic" controls and gunplay can only really exist in hand tracked VR where you actually can use everything just by interacting with it
It's also not perfectly stable.
And from all my experiences in VR, the game with the most realistic gunplay... is also the one where you shoot giant talking hot dogs.
You dont have to remenber 62 buttons in the games either? They’re optional for attachments
well thats just what comes with making a game.
That's not how I see it. "You just move" because you've remembered the 62 things you need to do. If you hand a person a gun who's never seen one before and tell them to reload it, I bet it feels a lot like playing receiver
Okay, this is our best video
No it isn't it fuckin sucks and was pretentious
@@TheButterAnvilThe realism of the MW2019 gunplay in sound and animations, is what motivated me to play the game until I was a pro.
ive been doing game design for a game I want to make (maybe in 15-20 years when I have the resources to hire people) and I've had the same problem with realism. my game is set in the future, with artillery tanks, jets with anti personnel tech, and whatnot, but also being set in a dnd type aesthetic (despite never having played dnd). so I can be a wizard dude casting shadow money wizard gang spells and simultaneously shoot down squads with my lmg blickly.
but realism was the biggest problem. the setting of the game is a player built pvp society, kinda like rust, but incentivizing working together far more than just killing and stealing, where a players life has far more value. and so while I was having trouble with figuring out how to encourage players to make huge teams of 100s of people and make it work and easy to use, I also have to worry about the realism esque problems more, such as how to give these futuristic weapons quirks that make them feel different and FUTURISTIC, while also keeping them making sense, such as a weapon that can adjust to different ammo types and different mags, (like a western weapons that can adjust to eastern magazines, so you can scavenge the enemies, even though there will be no factions) while also keeping it fun.
I found that you can make up your own scenarios to create your OWN realistic settings to make sense. one example of this is how I figured out how to balance sniping. sniping is a huge problem in almost every game, as its not at all fun for the player killed by it, and anyone can do it. I decided to fix it by attacking the "anyone can do it" part. I made it really realistic and true to life, with Coriolis effect, range finding, wind, etc. but then I found that snipers are easily spotted by the futuristic thermal tech, especially drones. to help combat this, I came up with a system that the more clothing you have on and the thicker it is, the less intense you appear on the thermal imaging, as well as a harness that greatly reduces your thermal signatures, requiring the drone operator to have a sharp eye to be able to find you, meaning the person who get the first shot is the person more masterful at their craft. both of these are examples of how real life realism can be better suited for fun, intregral gameplay.
I guess what im sputtering about and trying to say, is that I relate with everything you said, and this video helped solidify my mindset of realism + problem, can still = fun, instead of realism + fun=not fun
damn bro, I think I was replying to you the whole time instead of commenting 🤣
didn’t even mention how in vanguard you can just shove a drum mag into the m1 garand, and it still makes the ping of the non-existent clip ejecting
Im gonna pretend there's a bell inside the gun that rings instead of suffering from this information
this video exposed my cognitive dissonances about tarkov's game balances. Still dont like painkillers in the game, but now I need to articulate why its unbalanced rather than "it isnt realistic"
Really glad to hear that
Tarkov falls more into the simulator genre. For simulators the argument that "it isn't realistic" is perfectly valid, and one of the stronger arguments because being as realistic as possible is the entire point of simulators.
the problem with tarkov is that it doesn't seem to understand the difference between a lethal blow and incapacitating blow
a GSWor two is incapacitating but probably not lethal unless you blow through the head or upper spine
and yet a couple hollowpoints...
you can also sort of just heal off horrific injuries that would need level 4 trauma centers to fix, and stuff that a level 4 might not be able to save you from even if you were teleported right onto the table? pop an AI2, g2g, bring on the next guy.
@@bmc8982 But Tarkov was never meant to be a hardcore survival milsim. Raids are on average, 40 minutes long. That doesn't leave enough time for all the long-lasting components you mentioned and those components would only make the game more of a chore to play. The mechanics we have now give us the need to respond to trauma within the scope of the raid without being too complicated or lengthy. It's like what Squad did. We have unrealistic mechanics that create the desired output. That's not to say that anything is realistic, I'm not trying to argue that, I'm just saying that we get an outcome well suited for Tarkov by having certain mechanics that aren't 'realistic'. 40 minute raids suit Tarkov well and having to spend more time out of the fight would only make the game less enjoyable. We're playing Tarkov to do things that we can't do IRL after all. Not to mention that Tarkov's time goes by 6 times faster than IRL time. And trust me, the health system (before armor hitboxes at least) is the least influential of all the mechanics leading to the "chad meta" or "rat meta".
Painkillers if they were realistic in Trakov
You have to check the date
Check the mg so you don’t OD and die.
Know your characters limit.
Character gets higher then a kite and goes unconscious.
Yea Tarkov left it at just heal healthpoints for a good reason so hou don’t need to essentially go to med school just to learn how to right click pills in a video game.
I'm glad that you mentioned Receiver, been a fan of the game where you reload with the entire left half of your keyboard for a long time. Eventually you get used to it and can do it real real quick-- got an achievement in Receiver 2 for loading the gun in under a second with all of those controls!
It wouldn't work for all shooters, but I could honestly see it working for a few styles. Receiver is already somewhat survival horror adjacent and I think you could absolutely have similar weapon mechanics work with zombies or similar in another setting that's very deliberate, low ammo, high demand for precision. The issue is that by making the game so detailed in that one area, it's basically ALL the game can support. Not that shooting isn't 99% of your interactions with stuff in most games anyway... but it's nice to have other options.
One of the best examples of realism in games is the doom mod "hideous destructor", a mod who took everything to the extreme. Every gun have to be manually operated and can jam, just a few bullets will left you bleeeding to the death on the ground, everything have weight, a a single fireball Will let you panicking as you try to take of your armor to aply a medkid as you quickly die a painfull death. You are not the doom guy, you are a normal marine.
Theres even more things that i left out, its a experience you can only feel by suffering yourself
Played it. Very unique experience
4:13 slight correction. Although having tourniquets on forever is not realistic many studies (particularly those from the times in Afghanistan and Iraq) have shown that you are very unlikely to lose a limb due to tourniquet use, and that having a tourniquet on for up to 3.5 hours has no lasting repercussions (the vast majority of the time). This is relatively new research and explains why tourniquets have made such a resurgence as in these conflicts I previously mentioned they singlehandedly saved the lives of countless soldiers, many who could not receive the appropriate medical care for many hours yet did not lose the limb.
Do you have a source? That sounds interesting
i think what most people want when they say realistic is low ttk and slower movement. for example hell let loose, its not exatly historically accurate nor have complex mechanics but still it feels like it could be real since its authentic and consistent like you mentioned in the video. same goes for cod 2 and 4 and i think those games are what people want when they say cod needs to be more "realistic". they arent "REALISTIC" but they are "AUTHENTIC".
I actually have a problem with the association of low TTK and tactical games. Traditionally they've just not had health regen because if you'll never get the HP you lose back without seeing a medic or something you'll be a lot more careful with how you position yourself. Dying in two hits to everything is just frustrating
i've made the same association myself. My logic is that lower ttk makes things like positioning, angles, and teamplay more emphasized, and aim, and movement less emphasized @@icarusgaming6269
@@icarusgaming6269 I personally think the comment still stands, since it didn’t specify what TTK they enjoy, just that faster is better for them. I think around 5 to 7 shots could be a good balancing ballpark for someone who’s got decently light armor and is being shot at with 5.56, but I’ve got no clue how realistic that is, it just feels somewhat right. Otherwise, yeah, everything being a two-shot is bad game design, and I haven’t seen a game that did that tho.
@@icarusgaming6269
its not even realistic...
technically.
realism is random, inherently. xcom was right with its 50-200% modifier. sometimes bullets fail to expand or yaw, sometimes you score a shot to the CNS and just evaporate them. Maybe pain drops them, maybe they tank it.
ans that's not even getting into armor or how ammo does through cover...
@@TheButterAnvil
id argue that it doesn't emphasize team play
maybe in support of, but not directly
low killtimes encourages inherently positional battle. hold an angle, other guy comes atound the corner, he doesn't know where you are, BAM. Dropped.
higher killtimes means that theres a chance of getting away unless maybe multiple people open up on them or your aim is good. guy turns corner, you light four into his chestplate, he staggers back with maybe low health or something but he's alive and counterplay might happen. or you might displace and push while he's on the ropes.
such and soforth.
It's funny how simulating the fear of being shot at through desaturation and other effects by the squad dev is not necessary in VR. The same effects he tried to make are simply just there in VR. Like running into an enemy and trying to shoot is very panic inducing and I usually miss my shots. When I am the first one to spot an enemy and move in a good position to shoot them they seem so sluggish.
Or even shell shock. A team of 2 guys tried to flush me out of a building's rooftop because we heard each other's footsteps and I waited behind the ladder. One tried to throw a smoke grenade and ran back when he saw me. I jumped down and shot him when I saw the other guy in the corner of the next room. We both looked at each other for a second and he looked terrified. When I started swinging my gun around towards him and started shooting prematurely he got focused and shot me first.
Gaming, whether flat screen or in VR is memorable because of these tense moments.
Fun fact about tourniquets: you can leave one on for over 48 hours and the limb will just have that numb tingly feeling for a while. Worst case scenario of it staying on after that but not long enough for the limb to just rot is that feeling never goes away. But at least you keep and can still use the limb. If they can reattach severed limbs a tourniquet is fine
Fantastic video that really understands "realism" in games. I'd like to add that for 8:40 the blurry vision doesn't just "represent" the fear. In a practical sense it prevents the player from ignoring suppression because they're not actually scared for their life. In video games because people aren't scared they rush into buildings and stand in the middle of open fields and generally just do things that would be considered crazy if you were to do it in a real battle. You can't make the player scared so to combat this you can reduce their control so that it's difficult to respond in "gamey" manner.
The question of realism is only important if it's something that the devs want to achieve. Tarkov is supposed to be "as realistic as playable". Given that, the medical system makes sense, but stuff like old recoil did not. And they definitely should add the ability to cook grenades, and make it realistic. No one is gonna actually do that, because fuses are very inconsistent and it's pointless to attempt because of that, but it will be funny when someone attempts to do so and either succeeds or dies trying.
I think Butter had a line about how the way Nikita talks about the game has changed over time that didn't make the cut. I definitely remember seeing that quote
Add Russian RGO impact grenades instead of "cooking". xD
@@tiberius8390 Siege and Tarkov have RGO/RGD impact grenades. It's just they're a bit harder to get in Tarkov (banned from the flea market) and do such little damage in R6, they get used less for one reason or another.
Tarkov doesn't have realistic recoil tho
@@PieroMinayaRojas it does now.
It's annoying on FO4 modding scene. Some people were like "it's not realistic", or "in dire need of realism", on a mod that they have the option not to install, on a mod that people poured their heart into. Like just go get a real damn gun.
Yes, people have a right to complain
@@Rookie417 And I get to complain, on people's complaint -- see how fun it is to get bitched at? Like why are you complaining on an optional mod nobody is forcing you to install, on an obviously not-for-you changes?
There's people quick to point out "we all have preferences" implying I should respect them, yet here they are not respecting others' preferences.
@@The6thMessengerBecause there’s no option to filter out mods that add M4 with 78 attachments and cool plasma gun from fallout 2
I dont actually go out and complain to these people I understand M4 with 78 attachments isn’t for me and i’d rather not be a dick about it lol
But I’d love if nexus could filter out the tacticool stuff so I can get mods that fit the aesthetic that I personally think fallout has.
I completely get pretend healing in games
even in like tarkov
I do not want to take one shot and then be bedbound for 4 in game months
or have my character die permanently from gangrene
also the amount of sound you make doing things
ik that's needed for gameplay
Gun bros often complain about how janky guns sound in games when the player is running, from a certain perspective I get it cause like, if your magazine is making sounds like that it's loose and its gonna create some problems but at the same time it's very useful for knowing if somebody is aiming down sights or gunning and running you know?
For me, theres two types of realism.
Detail realism and general realism.
Detail realism is bulletholes appearing on your character in GTA 5 when they're shot.
General realism is your character dying from one shot and you having to wait 6 real world months for him to recover.
Detail realism is your singers mouth in Rock Band 2 moving accuratly to the songs lyrics.
General realism is them dubbing over the original vocals with a shitty singer cause no human can perfectly mimic every vocalist on earth.
Detail realism makes the game more beliveable, more immersive, but it doesn't make it realistic. Otherwise, only realistic games would have them, but detail realism can exist in fantasy universes and over the top cartoonish universes.
General realism is mimicing real life to a fault, grinding the game to a halt and making it unfun. (Unless it's a simulator, those are designed to be obnoxiously realistic.)
You're basically talking about authenticity vs realism
(Note, this is my take on authenticity and realism)
Authenticity
-how realistic it *feels,* and the “simple realism”
+CoD WaW wasn’t *that* realistic, but it feels realistic because WW2 was very chaotic
+BF1’s MP18 can make sense in simple realism because it existed in said time period and were produced
Realism
-how realistic it actually is, and the “more detailed realism”
+in CoD WaW, the main German explosive weapon is the Panzershreck despite it being the one shot Panzerfaust.
+BF1’s MP18 shouldn’t be the main weapon for literally everyone.
I think the closest I've seen to realistic healing in a game, is in the game Barotrauma with the Neurotrauma addon enabled. Healing isn't as simple as using a consumable and watching you're hit points go back up. There are a large variety of injuries you could sustain, and a large variety of treatments you need to account for.
If you have an injury, you'll have to open up the medical interface to see the damages. What sort of injuries you've sustained, what body part they are on, and what symptoms you may be having. Some afflictions are invisible to the player and require a medical scanner to assess. Let's assume you have a gunshot wound. For treatment, you may need forceps to remove foreign bodies. You then need to stich the wound. The stiches don't effectively stop the bleeding, so you need to apply a bandage over it. You may suffer arterial bleeding, which cannot simply be bandaged, and needs to be clamped. Blood you've already lossed may need to be recovered using blood packs. The blood packs have to match you're blood type or you risk sepsis. Using too much can result in hypertension, which needs to be treated separately with drugs. The gunshot may also dislocate or fracture bones. A dislocation requires resetting the bone with a wrench. A fracture requires a cast be used or gypsum applied. If organs are severely damaged, you need surgery, which you usually can't do alone, and must rely on another player to do. Surgery is a whole nother complicated process. After all this is done, you're hit points will not have fully recovered. All you did was prevent the condition from getting worse. You have to give it time for you're hit points to regenerate. Resting speeds up the healing process. While you are recovering, you'll need to monitor your vitals as you might suffer from other afflictions later down the line (i.e. infections).
I loaded up neurotrauma for a few test games and then realized I'd have to get my whole friend group to read a medical guide and then uninstalled it because I know it wasn't the level of detail we'd want to deal with. Definitely a cool mod and something that *I* personally would enjoy the systems of.
I love neurotrauma
Dislocation, nah your ass doesn't need anesthetic. Shits valuable like my backpack full of morphine and a small organ harvesting kit
Being a neurotrauma medic is truly an experience. Bringing someone back from the brink with very limited time and resources
After the ICO update from squad I noticed I had played less and less of it simply because I did not enjoy the gun play and when I did play I preferred to be on a vehicle simply because I found the gun play sucked I don’t care about “realism” I just enjoyed the slower paced (compared to most other shooters) well rounded gun play of the game along with the community that had me coming back
Playing Squad like it's COD basically was always viable. If you COD it out you basically monopolize the force of violence and cause chaos for otherwise organized defenses or even attacks.
TH-cam just randomly recommended this at me even though I've never seen your channel before, but holy shit I'm sold. Salient and unbiased points made on a controversial topic in a way with humor that's integrated in a way that doesn't feel overbearing or out of place... while still being really fuckin funny? Yeah, that's a like and a sub, looking forward to seeing what else you've got up your sleeve.
Thanks a lot
To me what matters isn’t realistic gameplay, but it’s that the games look realistic in their presentation like how insurgency sandstorm (RIP new world entertainment) did it or how cod world at war did it where they took some creative liberties when it came to their source material (real war footage) but still respected it and the game had such a somber atmosphere
900 hours in Insurgency and I've never felt more sad about a studio being shut down :(
They weren't shut down, they had layoffs
They've already said their continuing development
It's really refreshing to see a video about realism in games that doesn't just rehash every popular argument and actually brings something new to the discussion.
For grenade cooking. You can solve this issue by randomizing the timer on the grenade fuse.
I have heard this suggestion, and it feels very tarkov lol
troll harder by making it so grenades can just malfunction and go off on their own, effectively having rng kill you directly
I think an interesting point which I don't see brought up a lot is that breaking from "realism" in a game can be an important counter to the inherent jank in a lot of video games. Going to RoN for an example, having guns dropped by suspects being highlighted by a magic yellow border is entirely unrealistic, but it works to make the experience more "real" by removing the jank of the guns clipping into objects or the differences in how light works in videogames and real life. Your character would have an understanding of where the gun is that cannot really be communicated to you as a player, so an un-real element is put in to bridge the gap.
It's like the suppression mechanics in Squad. In order to get the same outcome that suppression has in real life, making the player not want to stick their head out, they have to disinsentivise the player from doing that. They can achieve this by taking actions that feel Authentic, although may not be exactly what someone really would experience if they were suppressed.
It's pretty simple.
Realism is one of several elements that relate to enjoyment.
There are other elements that matter more, and so people don't mind when realism is traded off against those things.
But people are sick of the modern trend of realism being traded off against things that matter *less*.
It's one thing to trade realism when balance is a factor, or when fun is a factor.
It's another thing to trade realism so you can sell microtransactions, or manipulate people into playing longer, or simply because you want to appeal to some diversity agenda that your core fans don't give a shit about.
Very few people want or expect a perfectly realistic game, because they know that would come at the expense of fun, balance, accessibility etc.
But they want as much realism as is *within* the boundaries and stylistic choices of the game, and don't want their immersion broken because some suit trying to appeal to the LGBT community or sell more GameBucks(tm) has decided that what the fans want plays second fiddle to the whims of corporate overlords.
Based
I absolutely love Receiver and Receiver 2 glad to see the series mentioned here! Great video!
I love how the squad overhaul has a similar feel to project reality
I'm so glad someone finally expressed disdain for definitions that use the word their defining in the definition
I think MW2(2022) had the best balance between "realism" and "fun gameplay" for its multiplayer, MW3 on the other hand was tailor made to be completely unrealistic in basically every regard so it would appeal to the adderal snorting, G-fuel huffing, ADHD sweat lords that think it's "fun" to be running around like Danny from 'The Wild Thornberrys' because they can't win fights unless they're changing their characters hit box placement every half second between jumping, sliding, dolphin diving, and other broken ass movement mechanics.
You're a legend. Most people say that to the most youtubers that put out little bit over average content on TH-cam. BUT in other hand.. you're the one of THE RARE, sub 15K sub channel that puts out sub million sub level content. And also joking around? HELL YEA.
for tarkov, add cooking grenades, but only for ai scavs, and player scavs.
reason: They are amatures and saw it in a movie.
They don't know its gonna frag themself.
*AND EVEN BETTER*
Make their grenade timers +/-20%
so people *will* blow themselves up if they try it
my biggest complaint is games that advertise as milsims and ultra realistic while artificially increasing difficulty such as recoil with guns that have none and actively reject real world experience and advice from soldiers and other experienced people or when games go strictly by the book even though different units have a different SOP and are more lenient on what goes on the soldiers weapon or how the task is completed
You missed A VERY IMPORTANT aspect of realism in games: Predictability and Skill transfer.
If you play a game that has an attempt into realism and implement realistic mechanics, and move on to a new game, your learning time will be considerable reduced and you will be able to translate part of the skills you atainned from previous games as well as have a general sense of how things should behave. This is quite real with car simulators alkready.
An interesting example would be how tarkov nerfed grenade launchers by making them more realistic: 1) Grenades fired from a launcher do not arm within less than 14m away, making them useless for CQC like they used to be spammed in BF. Likewise, armor actually protects well from grenade shrapnel in the torso, most of your damage occur on your leg if you are further away from 5m. I always expect this sort of thing in tactical shooters, as well as low lethality from RPG-7 HEAT rockets not having a wide cone of shrapnel.
However, stupid arcadeish games like cod, usually completely nerf explosives in a way that doesn't make sense. It also is EXTREMELY INFURIATING how COD has been shifting towards giving advantage to Control players since the advent of crossplay. Nevermind the aggressive AIM assist, Headshot damage has been severely reduced since even with Aim assist, headshotting is more difficult with controllers than with mouse. What you do? Nerf Headshots! You would expect a .50bmg to one shot ANYONE in the head. NOPE. But wait! They brought back one-hit-kills with Snipers in warzone! The .50bmpg kills in one shot? No, because it is semi-auto, but the .300 winmag rifle does! ABSOLUTELY MIND BLOWING!
Any other FPS game that does not look like a psychodelic cartoon and has a .50bmg, I'd expect it to one-shot ANYONE. T WOULD BE ACCEPTABLE for "balancing" however, if the enemy was heavily armored and had some sort of thick welding mask on it. OF COURSE REALISTICALLY that would never stop a .50, but at least it would "make sense" in the translation to game logic. (I'd also expect the 7.62x51 rifles to one shot ANYONE in the head)
COD is just absolutely garbage. I hate cod. I miss BF3 days. I want a sweet sweet middle ground between BF3 and squad/tarkov game with at least proper explosive, ballistic and a somewhat coherent armor + helmet system. I really like Tarkov level of realism, but It still is too janky in control and movement, (although I absolutely LOATH the crackhead parkour olympics that is cod) and the absolutely brutal RPG item-based progression and permadeath is not something someone with less than 8 hours of free time per week can afford to get into.
I'm an orphan of good fps multiplayer game, unfortunately.
I like games with authenticity and don't try so hard to be "realistic." Games should always be fun first and foremost, and authenticity can enhance the experience. You articulated perfectly well what I wanted to say about the "realism" argument.
Siege was never a realistic game, but it was authentic (in the beginning). Reinforcements, spawning every round, etc. are all gameplay convivences so the player can have fun. The launch aesthetic was authentic and helped the counter-terrorism feeling despite the unrealistic gameplay. Any discussion of realism in Siege is pointless because the game was never realistic.
You won't ever have the realism of having your body smell like a wet dog during the day then have your cloth solidified by your drying sweat at night and not being able to smell yourself after three days. Maybe we need to add in ingrown hair, bad sleeping posture and holes in your favorite sock causing blisters 🤣
If literally any videogame was realistic, it wouldn't be fun or popular. People need to shut up about realism and accept good gameplay. Fantastic video btw
@bhante1345some units already spend like 20 minutes getting gear ready and driving just to start
Wrong
easily the best video i've seen on this topic.
i think gabe newell's quote from the half-life doc is a great starting point (the TL;DR is that "realism isn't fun") - but if you start making your game and want it to be realistic, then you can add some - but you have to be careful not to make it overly realistic otherwise it's not fun.
I think the TL;DR is more that realism isn't _intrinsically_ fun on its own. Realism can invoke a feeling of authenticity, which can be fun - it can add depth, which can be fun - etc. But in none of those cases is the realism fun purely by virtue of being realistic.
swat teams did use the g36....maybe incredibly rare but in the 90's it did happen. not even sure what you were trying to say about the use of black tips...which are used situationally depending on the enemy combatants as well.
are those issued to your average swat unit though?
@@aidencraft32 those guys can use their own gear from a reputable manufacturer. So just like the video game, where you can choose...
When it comes to games, the "realism" argument is immediately thrown out the window because ITS A VIDEO GAME, there is no way to make a game 100% "realistic"
This is an exceptional commentary on what has become ever-so-common in the 'realism' shooter scene. There were definitely some familiar places when you broke down the misuse of the term. Players tend to get caught up on the "but irl" argument to the point of forgetting why we're making and playing games in the first place. Much of the burden of game design involves protecting players from optimizing the fun out of gameplay.
Squad's ICO is my favorite example of game mechanics being used to reach a desired effect. It is a neat response to player tendencies, given that one can't properly convey fear for one's life or the nuances of real-world weapon manipulation through a computer game. At least not yet
I think a lot of people want to think that they know what's realistic or not to feel smart without knowing what's realistic. These people want to think that the games they like are realistic because they want to feel smart for playing a game, these people feel smart saying they like realism when in reality, a hyper realistic game would be very boring 90% of the time.
I’m gonna go play squad
For the record, I was never a "CoD is the same every year" as a derogatory because if it ain't broke, don't fix it. You don't need to re-invent to wheel. And you wonder why CoD is in the shape it is today and has been for years.
Squad makes me feel like im forced to play a role kid of like a of like a stormtrooper in a star wars movie, they want combat to "look" good rather than playing well and having the rest be also cinematic, i think the older BF games did this very well.
it’s because combat looks like that in real life. And because the game plays like real life combat.
@@TheONLYFeli0 The game does not play like real combat it's a video game and it's is over dramatic gunplay over exaggerated to the point where he doesn't sell the idea that you are a trained solider.
i think squad plays quite well, suppression works, and feels authentic to me, comparing to my blank firing drills. yeah sure everyone was able to easily pass the target shooting drills with good results on the range. but that did not mean you were able to aim that well when you attacked thru enemy position through some thicket. fire and maneuver works with massing as many bullets in enemy direction so he cant shoot back. plus youre always checking where the rest of your guys are, most of the time you're shooting into depth and you may not even see the enemy that you attack because the enemy was on the other side of the line. lot of scenarios started with a hike with your gear bag what was 20kg. then we hid them, and then we played thru whatever was set up for us. shits tiring, aiming your gun takes a moment. gameplay mechanics make the ''realistic scenario'' almost viable, but fireteam based fire and movement actually does shine in game. you are not poking your head out when a mg pours down on you. but maybe you can suppress that mg with your friend and rest of the squad can kill him or whatever. winning a firefight feels good, and i dont really feel bad if im not able to take out 3 guys in the open because they magdump me. if you want to play point and click adventure enjoy cs
thank you for your service and for proving this dumbass wrong@@veliest1886
bro playing squad now feels like you are playing as the kid in the mw 2019 campaign, literally cant hold a gun straight.
Just want to make a correction, actually some cops did carry full size Colt Pythons pretty commonly, mostly in the 80s-90s. My uncle was a highway patrolman and carried one.
People need to realize that while most real life guns have negligible recoil, humans are very inaccurate. Mouse and keyboard allow humans to very precise and accurate, combine that with realistic recoil and you get gunplay that is nothing more than point and click.
We miss most shots in combat situations in real life with negligible recoil, that would not be the case with how precise/accurate virtual input methods allow us to be. Its a balancing decision and the devs don't need to be told its unrealistic, they know it is, and it is that way for a reason.
Me and you definitely grew up with the same TH-camrs and are the same age. You remind me of myself in a lot of ways lol
Thank you ben shapiro for your insight
Let's say, hypothetically, that you were making a stupid argument about realism on the internet. Now, just as an example, I would have to, theoretically, interject and explain why your hypothetical stance is based on a misconception
I regularly handle firearms. On a daily basis for work (see my shorts for proof). I shoot them often too (Required every 6 months, on top of my own personal shooting). Many, many, many MILSIMs sort of get a lot of guns wrong. The fact that Tarkov and Squad’s recoil is WAY worse than IRL is still kinda wild to me. Even a Bipod deployed SAW is outrageously higher than the real thing. But I can turn my brain off and go: “Haha, gun go brrr”
What kills me is the people who play MILSIMs and be acting like Subject Matter Experts on tactics and firearms, but end up spreading Fuddery. Even TH-camr’s are guilty of this, where they might weigh their opinions on Military subjects without having the experience to back it up.
Great video tho, really gonna change how I see Tarkov after this haha
Thankfully this tarkov wipe has made all recoil significantly weaker, making handguns especially much more optimal to use. But pre- this wipe every gun had the recoil of an icbm.
Actual realism Vs it's feels realistic
The Squad Devs said themselves it's not realistic, they call it unrealistic input (gunplay) but realistic output (overall firefights), press X doubt about the realistic outcome. Bf4 feels isn't realistic like squad, but it feels more realistic with attack Helis and overall everything
Realism is also a spectrum, like imo Squad has gone too far off realism, it should be closer. Just like bf1 isn't realistic, but isn't unrealistic either, it's on a spectrum in between.
I guess that's subjective because Battlefield was always over the top for me, nothing about it every seemed that realistic just chaotic grand scale sandbox of war.
@@queuedjar4578 look at Ukraine war it's also super chaotic and it's real
@@l.3626 It's a bunch of people sitting in trenches while robots with explosives attached crash into everything. Kinda lame to me, wouldn't make a fun game for most people.
@@queuedjar4578 yeah bro it's not only like that, it's a part for sure but Ukraine war is everything. And battlefield puts pretty much everything together into a small package for people with imagination
nowadays, the police departments (high budget ones) use drones to clear the entry way and incapacitate the suspects If possible, and then send in the Swat operators to secure the premises. And it's not a 5 man team, its at least 10 swat operators and all of them are armed to the feet.
I'm a moron who found this in my recommended feed, but I will likely send this to other morons I run into as well.
I can ask nothing more ❤️
It's like an anti moron virus then
Please do
you are one of my favorite youtubers, i understand why you cannot post more often, but i cant help to wish you would!
Someday 😂 appreciate the support
What's the game at 5:38 ?
I want to know too, the recoil is punchy
Modded Fallout 4
@@JohnZura wow didn’t think mods could change a game’s look that much. Thanks.
Historical accuracy is important, but historical authenticity is even more important
If you want realism; Ukraine is looking for volunteers currently for a totally realistic combat experience. If you want authenticity, join Karma's Arma 3 server. If you want unbalanced gameplay where your opponent is always at a lower disadvantage than you are, congrats, you're a Tarkov streamer.
10:40 The manual for the M67 grenade actually instructs soldiers to cook the grenade for two seconds in combat situations...
Corrected in pinned comment. That's my bad lol
@@TheButterAnvilOh sweet. Thanks for replying BTW, usually when I leave comments correcting videos the channel just deletes them.
What a pointless rant. Touch grass.
Cry
@@UnemployedStormtrooper The only person that should be crying here is you, you NEET. Stop projecting.
@@UnemployedStormtrooperGet a job and stop projecting.
@@SLSAMG I have a job bud
@@UnemployedStormtrooper Sure ya do, lil Timmy. Sure ya do. 🙃
I never comment on videos, but this is one of the most smart, hilarious, and well constructed videos I’ve ever seen. Subscribed.
15:50 caught me completely off guard
realism is a means to an end and shouldn't be the end itself. You make a parts game realistic because you want to acheive something, most often you are looking to increase immersion, but maybe you add realism for the challenge, or to force players to work together e.t.c
When a game is trying to be realistic just for the sake of it, that sucks
I like this video, you aren't smug and you actually look at both sides all the while being funny. Literal zestyjesus but reversed. Subbed.
I'm occasionally a little smug
@@TheButterAnvil ATLEAST in healthy doses!
ive been doing game design for a game I want to make (maybe in 15-20 years when I have the resources to hire people) and I've had the same problem with realism. my game is set in the future, with artillery tanks, jets with anti personnel tech, and whatnot, but also being set in a dnd type aesthetic (despite never having played dnd). so I can be a wizard dude casting shadow money wizard gang spells and simultaneously shoot down squads with my lmg blickly.
For context, the setting of the game is a player built pvp society, kinda like rust, but incentivizing working together far more than just killing and stealing, where a players life has far more value. and so while I was having trouble with figuring out how to encourage players to make huge teams of 100s of people and make it work and easy to use, I also have to worry about the realism esque problems more, such as how to give these futuristic weapons quirks that make them feel different and FUTURISTIC, while also keeping them making sense, such as a weapon that can adjust to different ammo types and different mags, (like a western weapons that can adjust to eastern magazines, so you can scavenge the enemies, even though there will be no factions) while also keeping it fun.
I found that you can make up your own scenarios to create your OWN realistic settings to make sense. one example of this is how I figured out how to balance sniping. sniping is a huge problem in almost every game, as its not at all fun for the player killed by it, added on to the fact that anyone can snipe with ease. I decided to fix it by attacking the "anyone can do it" part. I came up with an idea utilizing really realistic and true to life sniping physics, with Coriolis effect, range finding, wind, etc. but then I found that snipers are easily spotted by the futuristic thermal tech, especially drones (which would create another unfair experience to snipers in my game, when they should feel rewarded for learning the ins and outs of sniping)
to help combat this, I came up with a system that the more clothing you have on and the thicker it is, the less intense you appear on the thermal imaging, as well as a harness that greatly reduces your thermal signatures, requiring the drone operator to have a sharp eye to be able to find you, meaning the person who get the first shot is the person more masterful at their craft. both of these are examples of how real life realism can be better suited for fun, intregral gameplay.
I guess what im sputtering about and trying to say, is that I relate with everything you said, and this video helped solidify my mindset of realism + problem, can still = fun, instead of realism + fun=not fun
Thanks!
😊
People whose hardest day ever was having to walk to the nearest ATM to draw cash because card machines are down need to shut up about 'realism'
at 3:16 it is like those exersises where you needed to circele the item that doesn't belong.
4:44 what game is this? i cant really tell the name when you say it, subtitles dont help either, help 😭
One way I deal with big changes in games is the “welp, this is game now, i will play it and see how it feels” approach. Is it enjoyable, yes or no? Usually it’s yes, games can be enjoyable even with flaws and I like to look past them and enjoy myself.
Man it's been a long time since a video made me laugh hard within the first 60 seconds and made me watch for a full 15 minutes very nice work.
Ngl. I've come across your channel suddenly through recommendation on the topic of Insurgencies amd Revolutions,forgot the name,but all I can say is that I've enjoyed it and am currently bingewatching your content and by this video,wanted to say that I'm subbed and that based on the topic of this video...I don't gibeafuk,bc. I just want to have fun playing games and have ArmA3 if I truely desired ultrarealism,soo...nice video,GG✌️
squads new weapon mechanics is like tarkovs old recoil from the looks of it and that aim punch was horrible so glad they changed it.
This whole entire realism in games just reminds me of arguments about fandoms.
This is a goofy question, but what area in STALKER GAMMA/Anomaly was the clip at 4:15 recorded in?
I've been trying to find something that constitutes a range in the game can't find it for the life of me.
I know there is a range with targets but can't find it - so I'd love to know where this is.
great video, always thought that people took the word realism too damn seriously in games. Immersion trumps realism most of the time
i still remember shooting an m16 and m240 for the 1st time and realizing games lied to me regarding recoil. especially tarkov
this brought some insight to my general views. i used to love r6 but the only way i could explain why ive grown to avoid it has been "its gotten too arcady and like overwatch in feel" but this gave me actual ways to discus my position on the games i play. now if i could just find people to play the game style i prefer, id be set, lol
on the topic of cooking grenades, you don't do it because the fuse times are like anywhere between 3 and 10 seconds. You are playing russian roulette every time you do it.
thank you so much for this dawg Ive been thinking exactly all of this but unable to put it into words for so long
THIS
I've seen people complain about how the game should or shouldn't be realistic while forgetting that games are meant to be fun to play, not realistic. Things in a game are designed based on what would be fun to play with given what experience the game wants to provide, thats why even such dedicated simulators like DCS omit things irrelevant to the core gameplay loop of having fun with a plane/helicopter.
I will definitely be sending this video to people who complain about realism or lack thereof in games, thank you. This also helped me make my own understanding of it coherent, because I felt something was off with new COD MW3 campaign missions (other than the horrid writing), but realism wouldn't fit for an explanation, since COD was never realistic - but authenticity, consistency and immersiveness are definitely a factor.
"games are meant to be fun to play, not realistic"
I don't agree with that because people find "fun to play" completely subjective to each other. Some people actually enjoy having to work together in order to fight a group of enemy. Some others prefer to act like Rambo, solo-ing a squad of 6 or 7 people and coming out victorious. The issue isn't that game shouldn't be realistic. It's for game studios to actually market their games, with whatever level of realism they aim for, towards the intended audience. Squad did this poorly. It was trying to be a shooter game where it placed a lot of emphasis on teamwork and coordination. Their slogan literally had these in it. Yet their updates progressively got worse, only accommodating more casual players who didn't want to learn to cooperate and just wanted to Rambo their ways.
@@triparadox.c I don't disagree with you. Every game is fun to play in it's own way that appeals to certain people, regardless of the level of realism it claims. What I meant by that is that games should be fun to play within their design, as in the intended idea by the developer of how the game should be played. Realism in this case is just as much of a tool to make the game fun to play as anything else. A realistic damage system may fit perfectly in one game and make the game worse in another game.
Really well put together and offers a perspective that makes a lot of sense. Good stuff!
10:42
I’ve read the manual being referenced (Grenades and Pyrotechnic Signals With Change 1) and it specifically says which grenades can be milked, including the M67 FRAG. Other documents give specific instances where soldiers should train “milking”. In practice it’s a different story, but I think the way you are portraying this document is deliberately misleading.
HE TALKED ABOUT STALKER GAMMA LETS GOOOOOO
I'd say adding cooking grenades would be fine, but let the length of the grenade fuse be randomly generated between 3-5 seconds, just like real grenades
my god this is dubious, I love it
This reminds me of a video called "Ace Combat is a Simulator, but not of Reality" by "timmm", which also talks on the topic of games abandoning uncompromising realism for the sake of fun, and what a person dreaming of manning a fighter jet would imagine the experience to be than how it actually is. Good watch too lol
The first medel of honor guy to be filmed, cocket his granada, because he was about 2 be over run
Very well put. I think this was well done and I enjoyed watching it and it highlighted some shortfalls and hypocrisy in my arguments. Thought provoking.
Love to hear that
May i ask what game is in the video on 5:38 (great video by the way many people cant understand or doesnt want to understand realism in games or the word arcade)
curious too
I appreciate your ultimate opinion of "this is what the devs want" it really comes down to arguing with the developer more than the people who disagree with you in the end
Another point to mention for authenticity, is expectations of authenticity vs dev intentions around authenticity.
One thing i always like to do when someone talks about realism and mentions the battlefield 5 trailer, is break down what alot of the "unrealistic " aspects are, and how they are realistic and period accurate. (Prosthetic is a post ww1 arm prosthetic which the UK was one of the first to innovate on and spin into wide spread production a d sale, clothes worn are a mix of ww1 and ww2 era british and a american clothes like british long coats, victorian era under shirts etc, the criket bat is accurate as the sport became popular in the UK during the 1920s and 30s and its not unrelistic a soldier would bring a bat with them as us soldiers would do so with baseball bats and footballs, and a british woman serving in combat while rare, was in fact, possible, though a specific set of events would have to happen, as many women in the UK served mostly rear echelon support and commanding/intelligence roles in europe.
It goes to show that for that specifically, its not about actual realism or accuracy but about meeting expectations of realism, the trailer was over the top and very modern hollywood action movie esc (or just... a tarantino film) , so it doesnt fit with the expectations around ww2 games and media of 100% serious dark gritty and what people expect to see, but listening to the devs, their intentions were to have things like clothes and guns etc be period accurate but allow for more creative expression and fun gameplay chances, this is also why BFV had some very rare but real and period accurate weapons and vehicles in game, to showcase things people would never have heard of otherwise. Its honestly a shame how much hate that trailer got under the guise of "realism"
I consider it to also be inauthentic. Subjectively, the goofier aspects pull me out of the experience
Actually, on extremities with spurting blood, always tourniquet first. It immediately stops the bleeding, and you can survive and have a high probability of not losing the leg, arm, etc. Generally, in combat, you're with a doctor and getting worked on faster than the civilian world. If you've ever had surgery, you've had a tourniquet on for hours.
0:50 can anyone tell me what was that game that popped up first on the screen i saw that like 4 or 3 years ago and i really want to play it
i clicked this video because the thumbnail looked like a gmod realism video, can't say i wasn't unsatisfied with this other outcome