Which playstyle do YOU prefer? Fast time management or slow type management? And have you played any of the games at a different speed than the developers intended?
Fast for me is the best way to enjoy Pikmin games. Edit: I've tried playing Pikmin 3 in a slow and relaxed way by taking good pictures with the camera feature. It was a wonderful experience. But trying to slow down actual gameplay was boring because there's no reason to go slower. Trying to play Pikmin 2 fast was fun at first but quickly got frustrating. My most "enjoyable" way to play was slow & safe, which wasn't fun but better than frustration. Playing fast and recklessly felt like the opposite of dandori. Love making strategic decisions like spending valuable time to be safe or playing risky to save time, & if I mess up it wasn't meaningless. But in P2 that decision doesnt matter much. In P2 if I play fast I feel like I'm an idiot whose going to get my pikmin killed for nothing. But a huge factor is some of the bs the game has and how unbalanced it is. In Pikmin 4, I enjoyed replaying the demo several times to 100% the Terrance & to do it faster and faster, or other self imposed challenges. But in the full game I grew bored quickly. Things took way too long to progress & replaying was a pain because the rewind time cut off upon entering a cave/new sublevel and you can't go back to a previous day. Finishing a day or enter/exit/progress through caves you'd have had to set up a copied file to replay that part or start a new file. It's just a style of gameplay I'm not looking for in Pikmin games. That's why I was so astronomically happy Olimar's tale was in the game.
All 4 Pikmin games punish when I am performing poorly by taking away my resources (pikmin, days, food, etc.) which I then have to spend more resources and extra effort into correcting. P1 & 3 don't punish too harsh if I fail to grab a ship part or fruit on one day, by the next day I can easily recover if I know what I'm are doing. The ability to replay previous days makes mistakes less harsh. P2 & 4 I feel punish harsher as it is taking away my agency. In 2 the caves will boot you out and you'll lose your treasure & making you redo the whole cave over if you fail. Otherwise resetting sublevels randomizes them. Best ways to deal with punishment is either just don't make mistakes or grind & go slow, which to me bad. P2 especially makes playing fast as hard & unfun as possible. Some of the bs this game has isn't fun to overcome & can't reset to improve because randomization and replaying is very tedious. At least in P4 they remedied the issue of reseting by not only giving us the rewind time feature, but stuff like being able to replay dandori missions and making multiple save files you can copy (but not enough imo). However, not being able to go back to previous days or even being able to restart the day once you enter a cave really sucks. I can't easily make new strategies & play the out because I can't iterate on them easily. They gave us many tools & ways to succeed. Made me want to replay P4 many ways under different challenges but 2 playthroughs have already burnt me out & each time I try a new run I get tired by the length of the game. If I make a mistake that ruins a run (like accidentally breaking a rule), It'll suck if I don't catch it in time to fix it, otherwise run's ruined! In P2 & 4 it often feels like I'm being punished for wanting to play the game the fast way. Because by playing fast you are supposed to quickly make mistakes so you can learn fast and improve faster. The slower way goes against that and pads out the time between iterations. Having an idea for a strat, testing it, having things go wrong, course correct when you can, and when it's not possible or you think you can do better, you replay and make a better iteration. That's the kind of gameplay that made me fall in love with pikmin.
All the games in the series are legendary, but i can't help but vibe the most with pikmin 3's system. My dream pikmin game would have the game style of 3 with the characters from pikmin 2.
Yeah, I think I agree with you here. The writing of Pikmin 2 is the best in the series in my opinion, but the gameplay and overall world of 3 are unmatched in my eyes. A blend of both would be perfect
Personally I would really like if Pikmin 5 (in 2033) married fast and slow gameplay by having a potentially adjustable day limit as WELL as time-stopping caves. I like to think of caves in Pikmin as "Dandori Checkpoints" of sorts that can be utilized to extend your total play time while also giving you time to breathe relax and plan before you hop back up to the surface to do more stuff quickly. Then before the day ends, you find another cave just in the nick of time and hop in for another round of relaxing spelunking gameplay, while simultaneously gathering more stuff (Whatever the important items may be..) in the cave until you hop out and end the day with an enormous haul nurtured from quick and cunning surface planning + careful and calm underground planning. Ive recently played Pikmin 2 this way, since I don't have 4 yet, and it makes things a lot more fun when I'm trying to gather tons of surface treasure whilst considering what cave Ill be stopping by at the end of my treasure route before it gets dark.
This is probably the most engaging way to tackle 2, and its how 4 tries to set up its main campaign, just without any sort of time limit I’m excited for the day you can play 4!
Regardless of which playstyle you prefer (i personally like time management better), both playstyles have something in common which makes me completely and utterly adore Pikmin to a conceptual level: *Optimization* Pikmin 1 is my favourite in the series, with the optimal way to clear this game being in as few days as possible. Easy example: speedrunners took the insurmountable feeling task of getting 30 ship parts in 30 days and bought it down to a meagre 6. It’s so damn satisfying. Pikmin 2 has it’s own unique spin on optimisation. You can still try to repay the debt and get everything in fewer days, but with the caves comes new ways to optimise with how you use your Pikmin underground. Do you reset the system if a tradegy happens? Or do you tough it out and continue on with a weaker squad? Do you bring Purples and Whites underground knowing that if they’re gone they’re gone? Or do you just stick with what the hazards shown says? It’s questions like these that give me life. Pikmin 3 is here, and with it, the return of Fast as heck optimisation. Seeing how many fruits you can get in as little days as possible and on what difficulty gives me life. Pikmin gives me life. Pikmin is peak. And finally, Pikmin 4 is a little bit of everything to be optimised. Lowering your day pb on Olimar’s shipwreck tale, Saving all the castaways in fewest total days, deciding when’s best to tackle night missions and all in as few days as possible? Yes please sir.
Optimization is ABSOLUTELY the core tenant of Pikmin and to be honest it's not reaaaallly something the game ever directly told the player they must do until Pikmin 4, but it's an idea presented through the gameplay nonetheless.
I enjoy the fast and efficient playstyle more. One thing I’ve noticed is that I’ve played through pikmin 1 and 3 multiple times, but never have finished a second play through of 2 and 4. One aspect of the slower games is not only are they designed to be played slow, but they are also much bigger and longer games. It’s take much more dedication to grind through these games at a high pace, and it takes a looong time.
While I’ve stopped and started a bunch of Pikmin 2 and 4 playthroughs, the number of finished playthroughs is still ultimately very low for me compared to the very many Pikmin 1 and 3 playthroughs I’ve completed thus far So yeah, this is absolutely a shared experience
Yes absolutely! Ultimately, this is one of the best elements of 4, though unfortunately to unlock this mode players have to complete a solid chunk of the main campaign (which, to be fair, is only really a handful of dandori battles but still)
I was gonna propose a way to marry them with some caves being time challenges and other allowing slow exploration and realized that pikmin 4 did exactly that. I find myself more satisfied with the gameplay of 1 & 3, but the world building and exploration of 2 & 4 mean a lot to me, too. That being said, I never appreciated the depth of mechanics in pikmin 3 until I tried to do a 100% deathless run. Taking advantage of those hiding spots even made me more comfortable splitting my team when I went for faster runs, since I could tell them to "go here" into a bush where they're safe until I'm ready to switch to them. That game is just so beautiful, too. Another thing I often miss in the rush.
3 is my favorite game from the franchise, but it is strong because of what it learned from the prior entries. And 4 is so good too. Honestly, I just am so happy with the four games we have
Vantage out here with another BANGER! Ngl I love the slowness because I love to take in and just enjoy every second of the game while I'm playing it. SO sad that i'll never be able to first experience Pikmin 4 again.
Oh yeah, I feel the same way with Pikmin 3 - just being able to explore that world and see what there was to see was magical. And with 4, I remember losing my mind encountering the foolix for the first time, heh There’s so much merit to playing these games fast AND slow and I think there’s room for the games to offer both experiences Thanks for watching!
If a Pikmin game wants my attention, they just gotta dangle funny creatures in front of me like a set of keys. More seriously though, I enjoy the taste of both styles. In my opinion, one of the easiest ways somebody can ruin a game for themselves is by continuously comparing it to another game that is built with a different intention and style, even if it's from the same franchise. I've seen it happen many, many times.
I think this is the danger of baked in “nostalgia” like 4 has: I constantly compare areas like the engulfed castle to the submerged castle because… obviously. But I like the submerged castle better. If it were a new idea inspired by the SC (like the foolix from the goolix) id probably be less comparative
@@VantageEmblem Well in that situation, not only are you comparing the Pikmin 2 part of Pikmin 4 to Pikmin 2, but going a step further, you're comparing what is clearly a callback/homage to it's source, which is valid. They're literally built the same. That's why when people say "oh Engulfed Castle is easier and unimpactful cause Waterwraith was deadlier in Submerged" and other stuff, I just tend to agree cause it's just objectively correct. The problem comes from the "Time vs Type Management" thing. The two styles clearly have different intent and, in my opinion, do what they're individually trying to do very well, therefore the games are good. The problem comes from doing something like calling Pikmin 2 "bad" because it doesn't do this and that while Pikmin 1 does, because that wasn't Pikmin 2's intention, and is therefore not really a great way to judge the game.
Oh yeah, definitely- Pikmin 2’s strengths lie with its points of variance with Pikmin 1, and Pikmin 3’s from Pikmin 2, and Pikmin 4 from Pikmin 3. Just because the game isn’t a past entry doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be seen for its own merits!
What always annoys me is when people who don't like Pikmin 2 say that its NOT an RTS game because there's no time limit... But that's not how RTS works. Real-time strategy is exactly what it sounds like: strategy in real time. As in, not turn based like most strategy games. If you get attacked by creatures you have to react and strategize during the battle, rather than pausing and thinking about your approach. While many RTS games do have time limits, its not a requirement. Long story short, Pikmin 2 is still an RTS game, just a different type of RTS from the first game.
Oh yeah, Pikmin 2 is absolutely still an RTS. It just occupies a different part of the spectrum between action-adventure and RTS. Instead of full map planning and motion being the focus, it’s combat in dungeons, but that core combat loop is intact and, frankly, the battles of Pikmin 2 in general have a lot of strategic complexity to them Pikmin as a series has been a hybrid of these two genres from the start, and that hasn’t changed
Pikmin 2 is my favorite, but I always try and play it fast (on the surface to have a low day count). I love the adventure of exploring canes and methodically clearing obstacles in them to progress. Pikmin 4 is such a great combination of both styles and I love the increased level of time management combined with the Pikmin 2 style. Great video!
For me Pikmin 4 was the perfect combination of the styles. I agree that Pikmin 2 just doesn't incentivize going fast in the caves (the overworld is fine and has that aspect, but you need to have the internal drive for speed). Knowing that time still passed in the caves changed everything for me. And the Dandori challenges were one of my favorite aspects of the game. I've been surprised by the Pikmin 2 challenge mode more recently. As a kid I was definitely a slower paced player so it didn't appeal to me, but now that my tastes have changed (and after loving the challenge modes in 3 and 4) I'm able to better appreciate how the challenges in 2 are designed.
Pikmin 4 is to Pikmin 2 what Pikmin 3 is to Pikmin 1 in my opinion, and I think that’s why it was able to pull off such a good balance between fast and slow dandori
Though I do like both kinds of gameplay, I've always enjoyed the more exploratory content of Pikmin better, so 2 and 4 are my favorites. That being said, I think Pikmin 4 made excellent strides towards unifying both playstyles: (1) While caves are in the game, they are shorter than they were in Pikmin 2, and there is still a massive amount of overworld content for those that don't like like the slower gameplay of caves, as opposed to Pikmin 2 which had a puny amount of overworld content compared to how much time you spent inside caves. (2) The caves are no longer randomly generated, meaning that those that prefer the faster time-management gameplay could use a timer and try to get through caves as fast as possible and they wouldn't get screwed over by the luck aspect of random generation like they would in Pikmin 2. (3) Dandori challenges for those who like to go fast, yet you only need bronze to clear them for the story so those who don't care for the time-management aspects aren't forced to get a super great time in order to continue. (4) The Olimar side mode. It's not perfect because it doesn't have any custom built areas and you have to play the regular campaign to unlock it, but it's a great addition. I think I think if Pikmin 5 were to have a mode similar to Olimar's campaign but it used different areas than the main campaign and was available from the very start of the game, it would appease both types of Pikmin players.
as the biggest pikmin 2 fan out there, even as a kid i used to force myself to do challenge runs like "fewest days" and "deathless runs" over and over as a kid, every day i was out there trying new ways to replay the games in a light i never found joy in piikmin 1's gameplay loop
The big issue with Pikmin 4, I think, is that it does attempt to marry the two styles of Pikmin game, but it does all the wrong things in all the wrong places, so that it actually ends up combining all of the WORST aspects of both types instead of all of the best. The Surface has the time limit in full force, so it _should_ be where the time management style is in full force, but the overworlds of Pikmin 4 are unreasonably massive, and complicated rather than deep. Completing them without speed-runner ass-busting levels of gameplay takes around 3 in-game days at best if you know where everything is. Yet at the same time, with Pikmin 4's artificial early-game limits on something as fundamental to gameplay as _how many Pikmin you can have at a time_ the game actively punishes you for not using your pikmin efficiently in the first half of the game. And the Surface isn't even where the game hammers dandori into your head the hardest. The caves, however, are even worse. As they should be the other side of the coin, where the meticulous, explorative, infiltrative action adventure should be the main focus. But instead, they took the Pikmin 2 caves, and removed *EVERYTHING* about them that made them achieve this style of gameplay in the first place. Randomly generated layouts? Gone. A large number of different area designs? Cut down to half its count. A diverse Musical selection? Gone completely. Length? The Longest normal cave in the game is *6 Sublevels Deep.* That's barely even reaches the average of cave lengths in 2. Enemies? Barely any. The Caves in Pikmin 4 are just. . . Nothing. _They're nothing._ The only thing they have going for them is puzzles, *and they're not even the best thing in the game at being PUZZLES.* They're stupidly easy soulless puzzle dungeons that aren't even long enough to be an important part of the gameplay experience. Pikmin 2 did a better job of mixing the two Pikmin styles, and it was trying so little to do so that it's what inspired there being two classifications to begin with.
cavern for a king wants to have a word with you and random generation made some sublevels not fun, + shorter lengh makes sense since now time does pass in caves just slower, now caves are suppost to be played fast
@@volvoman5262 Hence why I said normal caves. Cavern for a King is supposed to be an end-game boss rush and an obvious outlier. The Random generation of Pikmin 2's caves ensured that every time going against a cave was unique, adding to the explorative dungeon crawling element. And they didn't even make good use of the pre-designed caves to do anything interesting. The caves are still all generic, somehow even more than in Pikmin 2. Playing fast is the exact opposite of the entire fundamental point of caves, and making it that way is what caused Pikmin 4 to fail.
It’s a good way to figure out the layout and to get an understanding of exactly what there is to do there! That is to say that taking your time and then doing the After Hours can absolutely boost your score in the long run!
Dude, this is a great video. Very well put together and on a topic I care a lot about! Thank you for making this. I love all 4 games, but I do vastly prefer the fast gameplay of 1 and 3. I have replayed them quite a few times to see how quickly I can beat them. I have only beaten Pikmin 2 once years ago, but I am currently trying to beat it in as few days as possible now that I just got the Switch version. Currently have managed to 100% complete the Awakening Wood and Perplexing Pool in 2 days each. Now I just need to see if I can beat the other 2 areas in 2 days each... It quickly becomes apparent though how ill suited this game is to playing it this way, considering I have had to redo the same caves a number of times just to be able to get everything done in one day. It is a big time sink; slogging through the same cave 3+ times in a row gets old... Either way though, I still appreciate Pikmin 2 for it's experimentation and a few of the new features. And I definitely applaud Pikmin 4 for going all out trying to marry both ideas. Even if I might have preferred a full game like Olimar's Shipwreak tale, I appreciate how much love and effort went in to trying to give both sides a game they can enjoy!
I’m right here with you! I love Pikmin 2, but it’s definitely the toughest game to play against its intended playstyle as a slow paced dungeon crawler, which I think ultimately is where a lot of the divide comes from. That said, clearing caves in one go becomes easier on repeat playthroughs, which makes things a little less tough At the end of the day, I really like how 4 tried to marry moth approaches, just like you said, by providing an experience that both sides can enjoy
Personally, I like both types of Pikmin games, and I hope the pattern continues, with Pikmin 5 being time management. Honestly, Pikmin 3’s bosses are the best in the series, with their large scale and cinematic cutscenes. If they could implement that into a future game, making the bosses seem like…you know, BOSSES, not large enemies, I would be SO HAPPY.
I just downloaded Pikmin Bloom, so It made me want to replay Pikmin 1 as its my childhood classic. As you stated, I missed a few enemies in the first game(mamuta, the egg in distant spring). This is a great review, I hope to see more in-depth videos like this in the future!
I do definitely prefer the faster, dandori playstyle over going slow. Idk it feels good to go fast, it makes me feel like I'm accomplishing something and being efficient. Funnily enough I enjoy 2 and 4 more than 1 and 3. 1 and 3 just feel too short to be time efficient with it.
Deadcells encourage both of these play styles simultaneously by providing rewards both for low times and hitless runs. I don't see why pikmin can't do the same thing. Maybe there are different enemies that spawn in areas if you get there quickly like the smokey prog in pikmin 1, versus if you lose very few pikmin along the way. Perhaps there are items that encourage one or the other play style that you get by playing that play style. I don't know, I'm just spitballing here but I feel like although these are mostly mutually exclusive styles of play they far from exclude each other from existing in the same game. Some deadcells runs I explore the whole level, kill every enemy, others I get to the door as fast as possible. Its fun that way. Personally i do hope some of the randomly generated, combat and resource management heavy roguelike elements of Pikmin 2 come back at some point.
I like pikmin 2 a lot ! (Sounds of pikmin dying to a bombrock from a dirigibug and also being crushed by a water wraith and being shot by a man at legs)
@@VantageEmblem this is true, I would also say each game has elements of each I would say for example pikmin 3 still has elements of type management while pikmin 2 also still has elements of time management in fact even as a guy who likes to play these games in as few days as possible I still really enjoy doing that with games like pikmin 2 and 4.
Just finished Pikmin 2 I'm started Pikmin 3 now Pikmin 1 is still my favorite Pikmin 2 was too long and hard I had nightmares because of it. I'm a lil lost in Pikmin 3 now but I hope I'll found the same joy of playing. For the moment the controls of P3 bother me a lil having spend so much time to perfect my habits on P2 learning new controls feels unnatural and unpractical.
I always go for a faster playstyle since it's what I enjoy most out of these games, and while I agree each one has its merits, Pikmin 2 still has many flaws that just make it the weakest in the series for me, most notably; the treasure cutscene, the saves after every floor and purple Pikmin, all these make the pacing really weird, where you'd rush through a floor with purples but have a slog fest on the cleanup, to making any major or significant loss of Pikmin lose any stakes by means of just reseting, something that in 1 and 3 would be a more interesting question, since you could lose a significant chunk of your day to weigh the option, in 2 it's rarely not the optimal answer to just reset and lose 2 minutes vs losing 10+ trying to regrow your loses. I would've much prefered if caves had checkpoints at certain floors so reseting in case of a loss wasn't always the obvious answer. Of course one can give themselves restrictions, like no purples, and no resets, but the game then becomes just slow, the game is already quite longer itself, making it a bit harder to engage in. My dream Pikmin game would be something like 3, where your ability dictates the number of days you still have left, but not make the road to progress just a single point, make it like 1 where the next area is unlocked by gathering certain amount of parts or treasure, but also have fruits separate from that, this way your choice between more time vs. progressing becomes more interesting. You can have caves and Dandori battles and challenges, I don't think those break the pace that much, but make them like 4, where time still matters and where caves do not overstay their welcome. Finally, I do think 4 is an almost perfect blend, aside from controller options and the weird upgrade pacing, the game is near perfect for me, it really blends what makes 1, 2 and 3 stand out and combines them all into one, it is as they'd say "Jack of all trades, master of none", except maybe that at least for me, it did what 2 did and improved it in every way.
I really disagree that 4 plays closer to 2 than it does 1 and 3. Yes it’s a longer game like 2 that’s not as easy to replay, but Pikmin 4 literally just doesn’t function quite right unless you speedrun it. Not to mention combat and type & resource management (2’s biggest defining aspects) are not at all a focus in 4. Again though, until you start speedrunning. Pikmin 4 was 100% designed to be played on a harsh time limit, it just allows the player to decide how they want to play it, even if that means they won’t get the best experience. Yes caves break up the above ground Dandori, but that’s just another factor you need to consider while making your strategy, something that can really mess you up if you don’t (speaking from experience). It adds a really fun challenge to timing things up correctly. And then you get into the caves and it’s more Dandori since caves now take up daylight time (something you were mistaken on, they don’t pause time in 4, only slow it down.) Resources like raw material only become something you need to be wary of when speedrunning. Don’t spend too much at the lab or else you won’t have enough to build structures out on the field. That’s only a big issue if you’re speedrunning since otherwise you can just go get more. I really think Pikmin 4 is the middle ground between the two styles since it gives you the complete freedom to choose which one you prefer, but I think the game works a million times better if you play it fast. And also, I know other people have said this but, Pikmin 2 is actually closer to what a typical real time strategy is than 1 and 3 are. But besides from those gripes this is a really solid video, I love how much freedom the Pikmin games give you in how you can play it, it’s one of the reasons I like the games so much!!!
I simultaneously disagree and agree with this take, and I think it’s for the same reason - Pikmin 4 was an experiment in making the Pikmin formula more responsive to player choice and expression through the non-linear gameplay. Structure wise it is absolutely a follow up to Pikmin 2, no questions asked, and the caves, challenges, and battles interrupt surface dandori tasks exactly as the caves do in Pikmin 2, that’s undeniable, and this has an effect on area flow. That said, Pikmin 4 ABSOLUTELY is a faster paced game than Pikmin 2 in almost every way. I think, when speedrunning, Pikmin 4 transforms more into a time management game rather than a type management one, because that time limit is reinstated, which is the design theory behind Olimar’s Shipwreck Tale. You make some excellent points
As a Time Management fan, I appreciate Pikmin 4 trying to balance both, but I hope Pikmin 5 is a return to a predominantly Time Management gameplay. Olimar’s Side Story is a nice concession for us Time Management fans, but it still doesn’t fulfill that itch. And I hope Pikmin 5 separates the content more than Pikmin 4. 4 almost has too much content and it all tied to the Campaign. It really breaks up the game’s flow too much. The Night Expeditions and Dandori Challenges, I wish were completely separate modes from the Campaign just to keep a better flow.
Which playstyle do YOU prefer? Fast time management or slow type management? And have you played any of the games at a different speed than the developers intended?
Fast for me is the best way to enjoy Pikmin games.
Edit: I've tried playing Pikmin 3 in a slow and relaxed way by taking good pictures with the camera feature. It was a wonderful experience. But trying to slow down actual gameplay was boring because there's no reason to go slower.
Trying to play Pikmin 2 fast was fun at first but quickly got frustrating. My most "enjoyable" way to play was slow & safe, which wasn't fun but better than frustration. Playing fast and recklessly felt like the opposite of dandori. Love making strategic decisions like spending valuable time to be safe or playing risky to save time, & if I mess up it wasn't meaningless.
But in P2 that decision doesnt matter much. In P2 if I play fast I feel like I'm an idiot whose going to get my pikmin killed for nothing. But a huge factor is some of the bs the game has and how unbalanced it is.
In Pikmin 4, I enjoyed replaying the demo several times to 100% the Terrance & to do it faster and faster, or other self imposed challenges. But in the full game I grew bored quickly. Things took way too long to progress & replaying was a pain because the rewind time cut off upon entering a cave/new sublevel and you can't go back to a previous day. Finishing a day or enter/exit/progress through caves you'd have had to set up a copied file to replay that part or start a new file.
It's just a style of gameplay I'm not looking for in Pikmin games. That's why I was so astronomically happy Olimar's tale was in the game.
All 4 Pikmin games punish when I am performing poorly by taking away my resources (pikmin, days, food, etc.) which I then have to spend more resources and extra effort into correcting.
P1 & 3 don't punish too harsh if I fail to grab a ship part or fruit on one day, by the next day I can easily recover if I know what I'm are doing. The ability to replay previous days makes mistakes less harsh.
P2 & 4 I feel punish harsher as it is taking away my agency.
In 2 the caves will boot you out and you'll lose your treasure & making you redo the whole cave over if you fail. Otherwise resetting sublevels randomizes them. Best ways to deal with punishment is either just don't make mistakes or grind & go slow, which to me bad.
P2 especially makes playing fast as hard & unfun as possible. Some of the bs this game has isn't fun to overcome & can't reset to improve because randomization and replaying is very tedious.
At least in P4 they remedied the issue of reseting by not only giving us the rewind time feature, but stuff like being able to replay dandori missions and making multiple save files you can copy (but not enough imo). However, not being able to go back to previous days or even being able to restart the day once you enter a cave really sucks. I can't easily make new strategies & play the out because I can't iterate on them easily.
They gave us many tools & ways to succeed. Made me want to replay P4 many ways under different challenges but 2 playthroughs have already burnt me out & each time I try a new run I get tired by the length of the game. If I make a mistake that ruins a run (like accidentally breaking a rule), It'll suck if I don't catch it in time to fix it, otherwise run's ruined!
In P2 & 4 it often feels like I'm being punished for wanting to play the game the fast way. Because by playing fast you are supposed to quickly make mistakes so you can learn fast and improve faster. The slower way goes against that and pads out the time between iterations.
Having an idea for a strat, testing it, having things go wrong, course correct when you can, and when it's not possible or you think you can do better, you replay and make a better iteration. That's the kind of gameplay that made me fall in love with pikmin.
All the games in the series are legendary, but i can't help but vibe the most with pikmin 3's system. My dream pikmin game would have the game style of 3 with the characters from pikmin 2.
Yeah, I think I agree with you here. The writing of Pikmin 2 is the best in the series in my opinion, but the gameplay and overall world of 3 are unmatched in my eyes. A blend of both would be perfect
@@VantageEmblemwith the pikmin two controlls imo.
Pikmin… oh my plant children. (also me) oh no 67 of my pikmin just died
That's... Kind of the experience, yeah?
Personally I would really like if Pikmin 5 (in 2033) married fast and slow gameplay by having a potentially adjustable day limit as WELL as time-stopping caves.
I like to think of caves in Pikmin as "Dandori Checkpoints" of sorts that can be utilized to extend your total play time while also giving you time to breathe relax and plan before you hop back up to the surface to do more stuff quickly.
Then before the day ends, you find another cave just in the nick of time and hop in for another round of relaxing spelunking gameplay, while simultaneously gathering more stuff (Whatever the important items may be..) in the cave until you hop out and end the day with an enormous haul nurtured from quick and cunning surface planning + careful and calm underground planning.
Ive recently played Pikmin 2 this way, since I don't have 4 yet, and it makes things a lot more fun when I'm trying to gather tons of surface treasure whilst considering what cave Ill be stopping by at the end of my treasure route before it gets dark.
This is probably the most engaging way to tackle 2, and its how 4 tries to set up its main campaign, just without any sort of time limit
I’m excited for the day you can play 4!
Regardless of which playstyle you prefer (i personally like time management better), both playstyles have something in common which makes me completely and utterly adore Pikmin to a conceptual level:
*Optimization*
Pikmin 1 is my favourite in the series, with the optimal way to clear this game being in as few days as possible. Easy example: speedrunners took the insurmountable feeling task of getting 30 ship parts in 30 days and bought it down to a meagre 6. It’s so damn satisfying.
Pikmin 2 has it’s own unique spin on optimisation. You can still try to repay the debt and get everything in fewer days, but with the caves comes new ways to optimise with how you use your Pikmin underground. Do you reset the system if a tradegy happens? Or do you tough it out and continue on with a weaker squad? Do you bring Purples and Whites underground knowing that if they’re gone they’re gone? Or do you just stick with what the hazards shown says? It’s questions like these that give me life.
Pikmin 3 is here, and with it, the return of Fast as heck optimisation. Seeing how many fruits you can get in as little days as possible and on what difficulty gives me life. Pikmin gives me life. Pikmin is peak.
And finally, Pikmin 4 is a little bit of everything to be optimised. Lowering your day pb on Olimar’s shipwreck tale, Saving all the castaways in fewest total days, deciding when’s best to tackle night missions and all in as few days as possible? Yes please sir.
Optimization is ABSOLUTELY the core tenant of Pikmin and to be honest it's not reaaaallly something the game ever directly told the player they must do until Pikmin 4, but it's an idea presented through the gameplay nonetheless.
I enjoy the fast and efficient playstyle more. One thing I’ve noticed is that I’ve played through pikmin 1 and 3 multiple times, but never have finished a second play through of 2 and 4. One aspect of the slower games is not only are they designed to be played slow, but they are also much bigger and longer games. It’s take much more dedication to grind through these games at a high pace, and it takes a looong time.
While I’ve stopped and started a bunch of Pikmin 2 and 4 playthroughs, the number of finished playthroughs is still ultimately very low for me compared to the very many Pikmin 1 and 3 playthroughs I’ve completed thus far
So yeah, this is absolutely a shared experience
Pikmin 4 has shown both can work with Olimar's side story
Yes absolutely! Ultimately, this is one of the best elements of 4, though unfortunately to unlock this mode players have to complete a solid chunk of the main campaign (which, to be fair, is only really a handful of dandori battles but still)
@@VantageEmblem yeah who knows maybe pikmin 5 will let you unlock it earlier
I love that it's a real possibility that we'll know sooner rather than later because Pikmin 5 could come way earlier@@zacharyweaver276
@@VantageEmblem yeah only question is what direction five will go in story wise. Really hope we get dogs in 5
That's a genuinely huge question and something I'm working on a script about @@zacharyweaver276
pikmin content is such a comfort to me thank you
Thank you for watching! It means the world to me that people enjoy this stuff
I was gonna propose a way to marry them with some caves being time challenges and other allowing slow exploration and realized that pikmin 4 did exactly that.
I find myself more satisfied with the gameplay of 1 & 3, but the world building and exploration of 2 & 4 mean a lot to me, too. That being said, I never appreciated the depth of mechanics in pikmin 3 until I tried to do a 100% deathless run. Taking advantage of those hiding spots even made me more comfortable splitting my team when I went for faster runs, since I could tell them to "go here" into a bush where they're safe until I'm ready to switch to them. That game is just so beautiful, too. Another thing I often miss in the rush.
3 is my favorite game from the franchise, but it is strong because of what it learned from the prior entries. And 4 is so good too. Honestly, I just am so happy with the four games we have
@@VantageEmblem Couldn't agree more! There isn't a mainline pikmin game that I don't love.
Vantage out here with another BANGER! Ngl I love the slowness because I love to take in and just enjoy every second of the game while I'm playing it. SO sad that i'll never be able to first experience Pikmin 4 again.
Oh yeah, I feel the same way with Pikmin 3 - just being able to explore that world and see what there was to see was magical. And with 4, I remember losing my mind encountering the foolix for the first time, heh
There’s so much merit to playing these games fast AND slow and I think there’s room for the games to offer both experiences
Thanks for watching!
If a Pikmin game wants my attention, they just gotta dangle funny creatures in front of me like a set of keys. More seriously though, I enjoy the taste of both styles. In my opinion, one of the easiest ways somebody can ruin a game for themselves is by continuously comparing it to another game that is built with a different intention and style, even if it's from the same franchise. I've seen it happen many, many times.
I think this is the danger of baked in “nostalgia” like 4 has: I constantly compare areas like the engulfed castle to the submerged castle because… obviously. But I like the submerged castle better. If it were a new idea inspired by the SC (like the foolix from the goolix) id probably be less comparative
@@VantageEmblem Well in that situation, not only are you comparing the Pikmin 2 part of Pikmin 4 to Pikmin 2, but going a step further, you're comparing what is clearly a callback/homage to it's source, which is valid. They're literally built the same. That's why when people say "oh Engulfed Castle is easier and unimpactful cause Waterwraith was deadlier in Submerged" and other stuff, I just tend to agree cause it's just objectively correct.
The problem comes from the "Time vs Type Management" thing. The two styles clearly have different intent and, in my opinion, do what they're individually trying to do very well, therefore the games are good. The problem comes from doing something like calling Pikmin 2 "bad" because it doesn't do this and that while Pikmin 1 does, because that wasn't Pikmin 2's intention, and is therefore not really a great way to judge the game.
Oh yeah, definitely- Pikmin 2’s strengths lie with its points of variance with Pikmin 1, and Pikmin 3’s from Pikmin 2, and Pikmin 4 from Pikmin 3. Just because the game isn’t a past entry doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be seen for its own merits!
What always annoys me is when people who don't like Pikmin 2 say that its NOT an RTS game because there's no time limit... But that's not how RTS works. Real-time strategy is exactly what it sounds like: strategy in real time. As in, not turn based like most strategy games. If you get attacked by creatures you have to react and strategize during the battle, rather than pausing and thinking about your approach. While many RTS games do have time limits, its not a requirement. Long story short, Pikmin 2 is still an RTS game, just a different type of RTS from the first game.
Oh yeah, Pikmin 2 is absolutely still an RTS. It just occupies a different part of the spectrum between action-adventure and RTS. Instead of full map planning and motion being the focus, it’s combat in dungeons, but that core combat loop is intact and, frankly, the battles of Pikmin 2 in general have a lot of strategic complexity to them
Pikmin as a series has been a hybrid of these two genres from the start, and that hasn’t changed
Pikmin 2 is my favorite, but I always try and play it fast (on the surface to have a low day count). I love the adventure of exploring canes and methodically clearing obstacles in them to progress.
Pikmin 4 is such a great combination of both styles and I love the increased level of time management combined with the Pikmin 2 style. Great video!
Yes! I think this is why Pikmin 4 succeeds in what it does, it marries the fast and slow styles through the sheer variety of content provided
For me Pikmin 4 was the perfect combination of the styles. I agree that Pikmin 2 just doesn't incentivize going fast in the caves (the overworld is fine and has that aspect, but you need to have the internal drive for speed). Knowing that time still passed in the caves changed everything for me. And the Dandori challenges were one of my favorite aspects of the game. I've been surprised by the Pikmin 2 challenge mode more recently. As a kid I was definitely a slower paced player so it didn't appeal to me, but now that my tastes have changed (and after loving the challenge modes in 3 and 4) I'm able to better appreciate how the challenges in 2 are designed.
Pikmin 4 is to Pikmin 2 what Pikmin 3 is to Pikmin 1 in my opinion, and I think that’s why it was able to pull off such a good balance between fast and slow dandori
What if my favourite playstile is the one of hey pikmin?
That’s valid tbh. Different genre and a spinoff, not a mainline entry, but valid. Same with bloom for that matter
Though I do like both kinds of gameplay, I've always enjoyed the more exploratory content of Pikmin better, so 2 and 4 are my favorites. That being said, I think Pikmin 4 made excellent strides towards unifying both playstyles:
(1) While caves are in the game, they are shorter than they were in Pikmin 2, and there is still a massive amount of overworld content for those that don't like like the slower gameplay of caves, as opposed to Pikmin 2 which had a puny amount of overworld content compared to how much time you spent inside caves.
(2) The caves are no longer randomly generated, meaning that those that prefer the faster time-management gameplay could use a timer and try to get through caves as fast as possible and they wouldn't get screwed over by the luck aspect of random generation like they would in Pikmin 2.
(3) Dandori challenges for those who like to go fast, yet you only need bronze to clear them for the story so those who don't care for the time-management aspects aren't forced to get a super great time in order to continue.
(4) The Olimar side mode. It's not perfect because it doesn't have any custom built areas and you have to play the regular campaign to unlock it, but it's a great addition. I think I think if Pikmin 5 were to have a mode similar to Olimar's campaign but it used different areas than the main campaign and was available from the very start of the game, it would appease both types of Pikmin players.
I sorta miss the style of pikmin 1 it was an actual challenge
Unlike 2
Purples go brrr hehe@@Kinguest8
For real though purples break the game. Nintendo should include a "broken purples" switch in the option menu sometime. Instant difficulty options.
“A Pikmin game’s difficulty comes down to its Purple Pikmin” - somebody somewhere probably
as the biggest pikmin 2 fan out there, even as a kid i used to force myself to do challenge runs like "fewest days" and "deathless runs" over and over as a kid, every day i was out there trying new ways to replay the games in a light i never found joy in piikmin 1's gameplay loop
i dont mind if the game is time management or type management, as long as it's fun and some what challenging
Fair! I think I slightly prefer time management Pikmin titles, but even still there’s so much fun to be had in type management games so I’m not sure!
The big issue with Pikmin 4, I think, is that it does attempt to marry the two styles of Pikmin game, but it does all the wrong things in all the wrong places, so that it actually ends up combining all of the WORST aspects of both types instead of all of the best.
The Surface has the time limit in full force, so it _should_ be where the time management style is in full force, but the overworlds of Pikmin 4 are unreasonably massive, and complicated rather than deep. Completing them without speed-runner ass-busting levels of gameplay takes around 3 in-game days at best if you know where everything is.
Yet at the same time, with Pikmin 4's artificial early-game limits on something as fundamental to gameplay as _how many Pikmin you can have at a time_ the game actively punishes you for not using your pikmin efficiently in the first half of the game. And the Surface isn't even where the game hammers dandori into your head the hardest.
The caves, however, are even worse. As they should be the other side of the coin, where the meticulous, explorative, infiltrative action adventure should be the main focus.
But instead, they took the Pikmin 2 caves, and removed *EVERYTHING* about them that made them achieve this style of gameplay in the first place.
Randomly generated layouts? Gone.
A large number of different area designs? Cut down to half its count.
A diverse Musical selection? Gone completely.
Length? The Longest normal cave in the game is *6 Sublevels Deep.* That's barely even reaches the average of cave lengths in 2.
Enemies? Barely any.
The Caves in Pikmin 4 are just. . . Nothing. _They're nothing._ The only thing they have going for them is puzzles, *and they're not even the best thing in the game at being PUZZLES.*
They're stupidly easy soulless puzzle dungeons that aren't even long enough to be an important part of the gameplay experience.
Pikmin 2 did a better job of mixing the two Pikmin styles, and it was trying so little to do so that it's what inspired there being two classifications to begin with.
cavern for a king wants to have a word with you and random generation made some sublevels not fun, + shorter lengh makes sense since now time does pass in caves just slower, now caves are suppost to be played fast
and 1 more thing: you can beat almost all areas in 1 day withound using some exploits like in 2
@@volvoman5262 Hence why I said normal caves. Cavern for a King is supposed to be an end-game boss rush and an obvious outlier.
The Random generation of Pikmin 2's caves ensured that every time going against a cave was unique, adding to the explorative dungeon crawling element.
And they didn't even make good use of the pre-designed caves to do anything interesting. The caves are still all generic, somehow even more than in Pikmin 2.
Playing fast is the exact opposite of the entire fundamental point of caves, and making it that way is what caused Pikmin 4 to fail.
@@StarLightShadows "pikmin 4 to fail" you now it's just like your opinion?
thank you. i actually needed that while doing pikmin 3 deluxe mission modes
just take my time 👍
It’s a good way to figure out the layout and to get an understanding of exactly what there is to do there! That is to say that taking your time and then doing the After Hours can absolutely boost your score in the long run!
Pikmin 2 is one of my favorite games of all time. It’s the most charming Pikmin game ever and it’s the most challenging which I really like!!!
Dude, this is a great video. Very well put together and on a topic I care a lot about! Thank you for making this.
I love all 4 games, but I do vastly prefer the fast gameplay of 1 and 3. I have replayed them quite a few times to see how quickly I can beat them. I have only beaten Pikmin 2 once years ago, but I am currently trying to beat it in as few days as possible now that I just got the Switch version. Currently have managed to 100% complete the Awakening Wood and Perplexing Pool in 2 days each. Now I just need to see if I can beat the other 2 areas in 2 days each... It quickly becomes apparent though how ill suited this game is to playing it this way, considering I have had to redo the same caves a number of times just to be able to get everything done in one day. It is a big time sink; slogging through the same cave 3+ times in a row gets old... Either way though, I still appreciate Pikmin 2 for it's experimentation and a few of the new features. And I definitely applaud Pikmin 4 for going all out trying to marry both ideas. Even if I might have preferred a full game like Olimar's Shipwreak tale, I appreciate how much love and effort went in to trying to give both sides a game they can enjoy!
I’m right here with you! I love Pikmin 2, but it’s definitely the toughest game to play against its intended playstyle as a slow paced dungeon crawler, which I think ultimately is where a lot of the divide comes from. That said, clearing caves in one go becomes easier on repeat playthroughs, which makes things a little less tough
At the end of the day, I really like how 4 tried to marry moth approaches, just like you said, by providing an experience that both sides can enjoy
Personally, I like both types of Pikmin games, and I hope the pattern continues, with Pikmin 5 being time management. Honestly, Pikmin 3’s bosses are the best in the series, with their large scale and cinematic cutscenes. If they could implement that into a future game, making the bosses seem like…you know, BOSSES, not large enemies, I would be SO HAPPY.
I just downloaded Pikmin Bloom, so It made me want to replay Pikmin 1 as its my childhood classic. As you stated, I missed a few enemies in the first game(mamuta, the egg in distant spring). This is a great review, I hope to see more in-depth videos like this in the future!
PIKMIN
PIKMIN!
I do definitely prefer the faster, dandori playstyle over going slow. Idk it feels good to go fast, it makes me feel like I'm accomplishing something and being efficient. Funnily enough I enjoy 2 and 4 more than 1 and 3. 1 and 3 just feel too short to be time efficient with it.
I think this is how I feel too - I’d love a game focused on the faster dandori playstyle, but without the game’s length having to suffer for it
I prefer Pikmin 1 but I love a bunch of stuff in Pikmin 2 that's for sure! Glad Pikkai sent me here fr✨💚
WELCOME! I hope you enjoy your stay here heh
Pikmin isn’t just about strategy, it’s about challenge
Oh absolutely - I'm planning on talking about THAT can of worms later on the channel heh
Hi vantage
Hello! Thanks for watching!
Deadcells encourage both of these play styles simultaneously by providing rewards both for low times and hitless runs. I don't see why pikmin can't do the same thing. Maybe there are different enemies that spawn in areas if you get there quickly like the smokey prog in pikmin 1, versus if you lose very few pikmin along the way. Perhaps there are items that encourage one or the other play style that you get by playing that play style. I don't know, I'm just spitballing here but I feel like although these are mostly mutually exclusive styles of play they far from exclude each other from existing in the same game. Some deadcells runs I explore the whole level, kill every enemy, others I get to the door as fast as possible. Its fun that way. Personally i do hope some of the randomly generated, combat and resource management heavy roguelike elements of Pikmin 2 come back at some point.
I like pikmin 2 a lot ! (Sounds of pikmin dying to a bombrock from a dirigibug and also being crushed by a water wraith and being shot by a man at legs)
honestly i'm a bit a weirdo i'm into both styles of pikmin lol
Me too though! But it's clear that there is a divide along these lines in the fanbase anyway, enough that the developers have taken note internally
@@VantageEmblem this is true, I would also say each game has elements of each I would say for example pikmin 3 still has elements of type management while pikmin 2 also still has elements of time management in fact even as a guy who likes to play these games in as few days as possible I still really enjoy doing that with games like pikmin 2 and 4.
Just finished Pikmin 2 I'm started Pikmin 3 now Pikmin 1 is still my favorite Pikmin 2 was too long and hard I had nightmares because of it. I'm a lil lost in Pikmin 3 now but I hope I'll found the same joy of playing. For the moment the controls of P3 bother me a lil having spend so much time to perfect my habits on P2 learning new controls feels unnatural and unpractical.
I always go for a faster playstyle since it's what I enjoy most out of these games, and while I agree each one has its merits, Pikmin 2 still has many flaws that just make it the weakest in the series for me, most notably; the treasure cutscene, the saves after every floor and purple Pikmin, all these make the pacing really weird, where you'd rush through a floor with purples but have a slog fest on the cleanup, to making any major or significant loss of Pikmin lose any stakes by means of just reseting, something that in 1 and 3 would be a more interesting question, since you could lose a significant chunk of your day to weigh the option, in 2 it's rarely not the optimal answer to just reset and lose 2 minutes vs losing 10+ trying to regrow your loses. I would've much prefered if caves had checkpoints at certain floors so reseting in case of a loss wasn't always the obvious answer.
Of course one can give themselves restrictions, like no purples, and no resets, but the game then becomes just slow, the game is already quite longer itself, making it a bit harder to engage in.
My dream Pikmin game would be something like 3, where your ability dictates the number of days you still have left, but not make the road to progress just a single point, make it like 1 where the next area is unlocked by gathering certain amount of parts or treasure, but also have fruits separate from that, this way your choice between more time vs. progressing becomes more interesting. You can have caves and Dandori battles and challenges, I don't think those break the pace that much, but make them like 4, where time still matters and where caves do not overstay their welcome.
Finally, I do think 4 is an almost perfect blend, aside from controller options and the weird upgrade pacing, the game is near perfect for me, it really blends what makes 1, 2 and 3 stand out and combines them all into one, it is as they'd say "Jack of all trades, master of none", except maybe that at least for me, it did what 2 did and improved it in every way.
I really disagree that 4 plays closer to 2 than it does 1 and 3. Yes it’s a longer game like 2 that’s not as easy to replay, but Pikmin 4 literally just doesn’t function quite right unless you speedrun it. Not to mention combat and type & resource management (2’s biggest defining aspects) are not at all a focus in 4. Again though, until you start speedrunning.
Pikmin 4 was 100% designed to be played on a harsh time limit, it just allows the player to decide how they want to play it, even if that means they won’t get the best experience.
Yes caves break up the above ground Dandori, but that’s just another factor you need to consider while making your strategy, something that can really mess you up if you don’t (speaking from experience). It adds a really fun challenge to timing things up correctly. And then you get into the caves and it’s more Dandori since caves now take up daylight time (something you were mistaken on, they don’t pause time in 4, only slow it down.)
Resources like raw material only become something you need to be wary of when speedrunning. Don’t spend too much at the lab or else you won’t have enough to build structures out on the field. That’s only a big issue if you’re speedrunning since otherwise you can just go get more.
I really think Pikmin 4 is the middle ground between the two styles since it gives you the complete freedom to choose which one you prefer, but I think the game works a million times better if you play it fast.
And also, I know other people have said this but, Pikmin 2 is actually closer to what a typical real time strategy is than 1 and 3 are. But besides from those gripes this is a really solid video, I love how much freedom the Pikmin games give you in how you can play it, it’s one of the reasons I like the games so much!!!
I simultaneously disagree and agree with this take, and I think it’s for the same reason - Pikmin 4 was an experiment in making the Pikmin formula more responsive to player choice and expression through the non-linear gameplay. Structure wise it is absolutely a follow up to Pikmin 2, no questions asked, and the caves, challenges, and battles interrupt surface dandori tasks exactly as the caves do in Pikmin 2, that’s undeniable, and this has an effect on area flow. That said, Pikmin 4 ABSOLUTELY is a faster paced game than Pikmin 2 in almost every way. I think, when speedrunning, Pikmin 4 transforms more into a time management game rather than a type management one, because that time limit is reinstated, which is the design theory behind Olimar’s Shipwreck Tale. You make some excellent points
As a Time Management fan, I appreciate Pikmin 4 trying to balance both, but I hope Pikmin 5 is a return to a predominantly Time Management gameplay. Olimar’s Side Story is a nice concession for us Time Management fans, but it still doesn’t fulfill that itch. And I hope Pikmin 5 separates the content more than Pikmin 4. 4 almost has too much content and it all tied to the Campaign. It really breaks up the game’s flow too much. The Night Expeditions and Dandori Challenges, I wish were completely separate modes from the Campaign just to keep a better flow.
I HATE time limits.