@@tonybeam Pretend like you are leaving comments to strangers across the planet. 1st Google result for bsfb is Brinjal Shoot and Fruit Borer. That helps a lot.
Kudos to the pilot of 947. He had great SA by recognizing two airplanes were cleared to land while he was on the runway. This was clearly a tower error..
@@vitorg.delduque367 Yes, those sort of things do happen. Lately it's been happening a lot at Boeing. Apparently Boeing can't find any records, paperwork, videos the FAA needs in it's investigation into Boeing due to the door plug issue.
Thank goodness the pilot of 947 was paying attention. Despite it being a critical flight phase, you still get plenty who are too busy chatting or texting and not listening to what’s going on above their heads, ending up putting them in a situation instead of easily preventing it. Lady ATC needs to drop that attitude. It’s bad enough it was towers fault, but nobody needs a bad attitude on the radio. That’s when you become a liability. Because you clearly don’t have patience or control of even yourself, let alone a runway.
Kudo's to the LTA947 pilot / instructor in having the situational awareness to query the controller. The somewhat indigent reply after the controller change was hopefully mentioned during the call. These issues are on the rise and all pilots must practice increased vigilance.
The issues aren’t on the rise. These issues are now more visible due to social media. And I wouldn’t say “kudos” to the pilot. He sat there for a very long time without saying anything. You don’t sit for more than 30 seconds, unless specifically told it is going to be a minute or 2 min. This guy sat on the runway for an awful long time, without saying anything.
@@rtbrtb_dutchy4183that’s true, there should be a balance because you don’t want to unnecessarily congest the radios if the tower is tracking you’re still lined up on the runway but it can be a concern if you’ve waited for longer than feels right. Although I’m sure the FAR/AIM probably would mention “proper judgement” or something in regards to this (I’ll have to look it up) it seems like there should be some kind of period of time a “line up and wait” clearance can be valid for annotated somewhere. It’s probably not common enough for them to warrant doing so but as with many things in aviation it’s not the 98% of the time things go smoothly that the regs are written for, it’s that other 2% where things can go really wrong
I've been in this situation more than once. If you hear someone cleared to land on a runway you're sitting on, speak up RIGHT THEN. They'll usually clear you for takeoff real quick.
Wow, tower deviation indeed, imagine leaving him on the runway and then having an attitude when he tells you your mistake in a nice way. This controller is pathetic.
That is correct. You cannot be sitting in a lineup and wait position for more than about 30 seconds before you should talk to the tower. Five minutes is ridiculous. Inexperienced pilots and the tower probably forgot about them as well. I’ve had this personally happened to me at least 3 to 4 times in the last 20 years
@@ohiyesa2328 Dude why so harsh? I mean the tower put him there, yes he could've checked in earlier but there are two sides here and since nobody did this on purpose I'm pretty sure nobody should be calles "stupid". Same advise I would give to the ATC lady: Drop the attitude.
@@therealdendon People get gratification out of saying they'd do something better than someone else did. These people don't actually DO anything though. They just talk about how great they are.
Rule number one when training on local (tower) is don’t load the runway unless you can launch the aircraft. This appears to be an incomplete position relief. Seems the dude didn’t tell the dudette that there was an aircraft on the runway holding in position.
Irrelevant. He already cleared two planes to land on the same runway as the holding aircraft. Unless you mean he should have said.......I totally screwed everything up, got planes landing and taking off on the same runway at the same time. You figure out what to do to straighten it out. My shift is over so I am out of here. ......
Major kudos to the pilot for keeping a cool professional demeanor, unlike the chirpy tart in the tower. I guess she's forgotten when bad things happen pilots die, not controllers.
@@jtjames79 She worked harder than you to get where she is! You seem to be overlooking that it was a male who told the plane to line up and then cleared two other planes to land on top of him.)
I get that the controller just forget he was there, but why make him get off the runway? Everyone else is already going around. Clear him and let him go.
I think Tower's first reaction was to get him off the runway in time that maybe they wouldn't have to do a go around for the second aircraft on approach to the runway. If they cleared him, it would have meant a definite go-around for the second aircraft, and the aircraft on the runway would have been delayed anyway waiting for the go-around aircraft to fly away from the vicinity of the runway. It was pretty clear ATC completely forgot about him and didn't realize they screwed up. In that mindset, ATC probably wasn't ready to clear him to takeoff anyway which I think is pretty reasonable. If you've already made a mistake or have a situation you're not sure about, it's risky to rush a takeoff clearance. Edit - I think @Zaephyrs nailed it. The controller probably thought the runway was occupied by an arrival that failed to vacate the runway. That might help explain why the controller was asking if the pilot wanted to go to the ramp.
Since there was already a mistake, she might have just thought it safer to get the plane off the runway and reset and reanalyze everything, rather than just rushing a takeoff that she wasn't ready for.
Her initial reaction seem to be to assume he was an arrival that hadn't cleared the active, instead of a departure holding in position on it. Would explain the attitude too if she thought he'd landed and wasn't exiting in a timely fashion. I'd love to hear how that phone call went.
Always listen carefully to what ATC is telling others, as LTA947 obviously did. I've had this happen twice, once cleared to land with someone waiting on the numbers and the second time I was waiting when they cleared someone to land on me. I believe both times the controller "forgot" they hadn't cleared the waiting aircraft to take off and in their minds the runway was clear. I will never again line up and wait for more than 30 seconds without getting an explanation of what I'm waiting for. I've probably annoyed a few controllers by that, but I'm still alive and they're still employed, so we're all good. They've saved my butt a couple times too by not assuming I had everything under control when I didn't.
Quick question for pilots in the channel? Could 368 or 179 question tower's land instruction? KNowing there was an aircraft lined up and waiting on runway?
Either fake pilots, or company / school policy. Personally it's always just been an unspoken common sense thing. If you hear Tower clear 2 planes for landing and you're still sitting on the active, speak up. Never heard a rule about it, but if any company or school has a rule on it, it's a good one.
@@WestAirAviationcompletely agree that having situational awareness of who is being cleared to land on the runway you’re departing from (or sitting on) is important. But I can think of numerous occasions in which “line up and wait” has been given and sat on the runway for longer than 30 seconds without inbound traffic. Usually it’s because of other traffic on a cross runway or a nearby airport. Point is that a rule doesn’t exist. I’d encourage anyone to challenge the next controller after being given “line up and wait” and 0:31 on the clock…. That’ll go well.
@@cajinguy218 Oh absolutely. Did my training at KFRG. Those controllers will chew you up and spit you out for hogging up their radio like that during peak summer flying. Personally I don't mind getting yelled at anymore. If asking questions gets me put in a hold it is what it is. I'd rather let the AP do circles than be on a TH-cam video with people asking what I was thinking.
The AIM avoids giving a defined time in 5-2-5-c: "If a takeoff clearance is not received within a reasonable amount of time after clearance to line up and wait, ATC should be contacted." but it does have the note "FAA analysis of accidents and incidents involving aircraft holding in position indicate that two minutes or more elapsed between the time the instruction was issued to line up and wait and the resulting event (for example, land-over or go-around). Pilots should consider the length of time that they have been holding in position whenever they HAVE NOT been advised of any expected delay to determine when it is appropriate to query the controller." So 30 seconds might be a little short but a minute wouldn't be unreasonable. AIM also says "ATC will normally withhold landing clearance to arrival aircraft when another aircraft is in position and holding on the runway." so if you hear someone get cleared to land when you are LUAW and they don't mention you as traffic in that clearance, definitely call ATC to remind them.
Getting a number to call is not always a dreaded issue, and often times it is due to an ATC mistake, or the mistake of another aircraft. The only time I got a number to call was when I was on approach in to OAK, runway 30, and a helicopter taking off out of Hayward busted an altitude, creating an RA for me. I didn't screw up, and ATC didn't screw up. But I still got a number to call. ATC wanted to apologize to me and explain what had happened with the helicopter. That is all it was.
@rtbrtb_dutchy4183 LOL yeah no one was put in danger, other than everyone onboard all 3 aircraft that were cleared to have a fiery mangled collision. If you want to see what happens when one aircraft lands on a runway occupied by another GA aircraft, then look at the fatal accident of N48962.
@@sintillate1913 so, what you are saying in this instance: tower forgets airplane on runway. Airplane on runway stays quiet. First airplane cleared to land doesn’t see airplane in the middle of the runway and continues. First airplane lands on the numbers and instead of braking and coming to a taxi speed before getting to that airplane, he continues at high speed, no time to brake in time. Then the second airplane, misses all that and also lands and repeats what the first airplane did. Is that what you are saying? The first airplane would’ve simply asked at some point if that other airplane was going to clear the runway. That’s when the tower would’ve caught it. Your “accident” was an uncontrolled airport. The T-28 and Cessna were both landing. The T28 was blinded by the sun. None of this was the same situation as this video. Except there was airplanes and a runway involved.
@@davidwebb4904 ah, because we now have TH-cam and people recording this stuff, you think this isn’t something we have dealt with for 50 years? Yes, mistakes are made occasionally. But systems are in place to catch the mistakes. Like in this video, others realized what was happening. No one was in danger.
Did the tower screw up? Yes. But for the pilot to sit on the runway for that long is a screw up too. You don’t sit on a runway for more than 30 seconds, unless the tower told you to expect a delay.
What? If you have been instructed to line up and wait, you wait until you are given further instructions. Certainly you should ask for an update if you feel something is wrong but you can definitely be on a runway for considerably longer than 30 seconds.
@@jqxok I never said you can’t be on the runway longer than 30 seconds. But it has to be clarified as to why. If they tell you to line up and wait and don’t hear anything for 30 seconds, you should ask questions. I get told to line up and wait a lot of times, without an immediate departure, but they tell me: “Line up and wait, there are 2 departures from a crossing runway, before it’s your turn”. “Line up and wait, expect take off clearance in 2 min.” If those aren’t given to you, you should expect a take off clearance relatively quick.
@@EllsworthJohnson-ui1xm did I say this is in the FAR. What I’m saying is, a conscious pilot should start to try and figure out why he or she is still holding on the runway. As a pilot, the worst thing is sitting on the runway for an extended period of time, because you simply can’t see behind you. You can’t just sit on the runway for minutes without knowing why. If you accept that, you are completely out of the loop. You don’t wait 5 minutes before you start talking. You don’t even wait 2 minutes. This isn’t about rules or regulations in the FARs, this is common sense.
Apparently people here in the comment section are unable to recognize the difference between a man's and a woman's voice. Everyone are blaming the female controller for forgetting the "line-up and wait" instruction but it's the commenters themselves that are forgetting that it was the male controller that messed up.
Good on that pilot for calling out ATC on their mistake and fairly shocking that ATC seemed to be oblivious to their mistake for a long time after being told. Per the AIM, if you are told to line up and wait and you have not been cleared to take off after a minute or two, you should remind the controller that you are still lined up. Also, if you hear the controller clear another plane to land while you are lined up and they do not include as part of the clearance the mandatory warning to the landing aircraft about "traffic holding in position", then the controller likely forgot about you and you should remind them.
Lift 947 maintained good situational awareness to remind tower he’s still on the runway when another aircraft was cleared to land. I’m sure that phone call will include a request to review the tower tape. It is bothersome that ATC is quick to hammer pilots with possible pilot deviation. The question is, what kind of report goes to the FAA when ATC screws up?
There was no mention of a pilot deviation. As others have said, it is normal to get the pilot to call so that they can get to the bottom of the incident
I'm impressed that the aircraft on the runway was able to call as calmly as he did. I would have had a difficult time not expressing anger. That was a very dangerous mistake by the tower.
She broke protocol because if a pilot asked for a controllers initials, they must give it out! There’s a reason why they don’t say a name so they can give it out over the radio I get that she was trying her best, but in this day and age people think that they cannot be held accountable in the public eye
@@HeinrichDixon Exactly! That's why he requested the number so that he could lodge a complaint. You try not to do this over the frequency and take up air time.
This is further ATC incompetence at US airports. In my opinion, the US system simply doesn’t have the training or staffing capacity to safely handle procedures that allow the clearance of multiple aircraft to use the same runway simultaneously. In Europe we do not routinely allow this. Sure, maybe at some exceptionally busy airports where there are special precautions in place, but not at fields with light to moderate traffic where a controller can clear an aircraft onto a runway and just forget about it. In Europe, the aircraft the controller forgot, LTA947 sitting on the runway, on hearing a landing clearance to the same runway would have sounded the alarm. Another few slices of cheese in the Swiss Cheese model of aviation safety would not go amiss. Here, LTA179 would have been cleared to “continue, traffic departing ahead, expect late landing clearance”, and would have remained go-around minded until cleared. That is a safe way to handle situations like this and it baffles me that it appears so alien to our US cousins. There have been so many close calls recently from US controllers losing track of one or more aircraft they have cleared to the same runway simultaneously. Sadly it’s only a matter of time before disaster strikes, and it will not be for lack of awareness that there is a problem.
You can take the sass out of your voice and mark the tapes...now give me the number... Geez...can you imagine the attitude if it were a pilot deviation?
Unbelievable ATC. Gives pilot a number to call as though he messed up! SHE messed up big time, clearly forgetting she had already told him to line up and wait. The arrogance of some of these US controllers is staggering, and it seems to be getting worse. Shockingly incompetent ATC and also unwilling to admit she was not just wrong, but potentially wrong enough to cause a major accident.
I suggest you listen again. She did not tell him to line up and wait. A male controller did. As others have said, this has all the signs of a poor handover from the male controller to the female controller. It is clear she didn't even know whether 947 was arriving or departing. And giving the pilot a number to call does not mean he messed up. It means they need to investigate what happened. It can be an ATC mistake or another aircraft's mistake. Giving him a number to call was perfectly normal and absolutely the right thing to do.
@@prh47bridge Why assume the female being handed off the controls did not just forget what was handed off to her and assume it was the male handing off that forgot to let her know?
@@SheriffChuck81-qq5vq A poor handover encompasses both the outgoing controller forgetting to tell her things and her not taking in what she is being told. Why are you so keen to blame the woman?
LTA947: "Tower, I have a number for you to call...800-EAT-S#!t. We can talk about your reckless and inept ATC skills and you can profusely apologize for trying to get me killed. By the way, are there a number of DEI hires in your tower?"
Anyone still claiming human's are the best for ATC are mentally ill. This is a typical human error, something a well designed software implementation would never do. This is pathetic in 2024.
"Because I need to move airplanes"
Could have fooled me, leaving them parked on the runway like that.....
💯
That ATC is a bsfb.
@@tonybeam Pretend like you are leaving comments to strangers across the planet. 1st Google result for bsfb is Brinjal Shoot and Fruit Borer. That helps a lot.
Possible tower deviation… Guy sitting on the runway was totally in the right.
ATC I got a number for you to copy when ready for possible ATC deviation!
Kudos to the pilot of 947. He had great SA by recognizing two airplanes were cleared to land while he was on the runway. This was clearly a tower error..
Legend has it that Lift 947 is STILL holding short of 14 at Hotel.
Tower thought they said "checked in to a hotel".......
“Lift 947 thanks for calling, however we can’t find that recording.”
That happens?
Good thing it’s here on TH-cam then
@@vitorg.delduque367 Yes, those sort of things do happen. Lately it's been happening a lot at Boeing. Apparently Boeing can't find any records, paperwork, videos the FAA needs in it's investigation into Boeing due to the door plug issue.
Great SA (Situation Awareness) pilot! Excellent safety disciple. Controllers, not so much.
The grumpy bored guy that issued the line up and wait probably ended his shift and never told the woman that took over about it
Thank goodness the pilot of 947 was paying attention. Despite it being a critical flight phase, you still get plenty who are too busy chatting or texting and not listening to what’s going on above their heads, ending up putting them in a situation instead of easily preventing it.
Lady ATC needs to drop that attitude. It’s bad enough it was towers fault, but nobody needs a bad attitude on the radio. That’s when you become a liability. Because you clearly don’t have patience or control of even yourself, let alone a runway.
Kudo's to the LTA947 pilot / instructor in having the situational awareness to query the controller. The somewhat indigent reply after the controller change was hopefully mentioned during the call.
These issues are on the rise and all pilots must practice increased vigilance.
The issues aren’t on the rise. These issues are now more visible due to social media.
And I wouldn’t say “kudos” to the pilot. He sat there for a very long time without saying anything.
You don’t sit for more than 30 seconds, unless specifically told it is going to be a minute or 2 min. This guy sat on the runway for an awful long time, without saying anything.
@@rtbrtb_dutchy4183that’s true, there should be a balance because you don’t want to unnecessarily congest the radios if the tower is tracking you’re still lined up on the runway but it can be a concern if you’ve waited for longer than feels right. Although I’m sure the FAR/AIM probably would mention “proper judgement” or something in regards to this (I’ll have to look it up) it seems like there should be some kind of period of time a “line up and wait” clearance can be valid for annotated somewhere. It’s probably not common enough for them to warrant doing so but as with many things in aviation it’s not the 98% of the time things go smoothly that the regs are written for, it’s that other 2% where things can go really wrong
I've been in this situation more than once. If you hear someone cleared to land on a runway you're sitting on, speak up RIGHT THEN. They'll usually clear you for takeoff real quick.
Asking someone in VFR conditions if they are clear of the runway is a little strange. They put windows in the control tower for that purpose.
Wow, tower deviation indeed, imagine leaving him on the runway and then having an attitude when he tells you your mistake in a nice way.
This controller is pathetic.
The pilot should have told them: "When you're ready up there in the tower, we got a number we need you to call. Say when ready to copy..." lol
If I was 947 I'd have been checking in earlier.
That is correct. You cannot be sitting in a lineup and wait position for more than about 30 seconds before you should talk to the tower. Five minutes is ridiculous. Inexperienced pilots and the tower probably forgot about them as well. I’ve had this personally happened to me at least 3 to 4 times in the last 20 years
Stupid pilot to sit there so long
@@gonetoearth2588 Yes, it also sounded like the tower couldn't see that part of the runway either
@@ohiyesa2328 Dude why so harsh? I mean the tower put him there, yes he could've checked in earlier but there are two sides here and since nobody did this on purpose I'm pretty sure nobody should be calles "stupid". Same advise I would give to the ATC lady: Drop the attitude.
@@therealdendon People get gratification out of saying they'd do something better than someone else did. These people don't actually DO anything though. They just talk about how great they are.
Rule number one when training on local (tower) is don’t load the runway unless you can launch the aircraft. This appears to be an incomplete position relief. Seems the dude didn’t tell the dudette that there was an aircraft on the runway holding in position.
Irrelevant. He already cleared two planes to land on the same runway as the holding aircraft. Unless you mean he should have said.......I totally screwed everything up, got planes landing and taking off on the same runway at the same time. You figure out what to do to straighten it out. My shift is over so I am out of here. ......
Major kudos to the pilot for keeping a cool professional demeanor, unlike the chirpy tart in the tower. I guess she's forgotten when bad things happen pilots die, not controllers.
"chirpy tart" - misogyny much?
Makes me wonder. Did she Earn It?
@@jtjames79 She worked harder than you to get where she is!
You seem to be overlooking that it was a male who told the plane to line up and then cleared two other planes to land on top of him.)
@@AnotherDoug You're really bringing that stereotype to a middle.
@@jtjames79 Are there words missing from your post? Which stereotype? Middle of what?
Is it a good idea for an airline to have the callsign "Lift," which could easily be mistaken for "Left"?
I get that the controller just forget he was there, but why make him get off the runway? Everyone else is already going around. Clear him and let him go.
I think Tower's first reaction was to get him off the runway in time that maybe they wouldn't have to do a go around for the second aircraft on approach to the runway. If they cleared him, it would have meant a definite go-around for the second aircraft, and the aircraft on the runway would have been delayed anyway waiting for the go-around aircraft to fly away from the vicinity of the runway. It was pretty clear ATC completely forgot about him and didn't realize they screwed up. In that mindset, ATC probably wasn't ready to clear him to takeoff anyway which I think is pretty reasonable. If you've already made a mistake or have a situation you're not sure about, it's risky to rush a takeoff clearance.
Edit - I think @Zaephyrs nailed it. The controller probably thought the runway was occupied by an arrival that failed to vacate the runway. That might help explain why the controller was asking if the pilot wanted to go to the ramp.
Since there was already a mistake, she might have just thought it safer to get the plane off the runway and reset and reanalyze everything, rather than just rushing a takeoff that she wasn't ready for.
Her initial reaction seem to be to assume he was an arrival that hadn't cleared the active, instead of a departure holding in position on it. Would explain the attitude too if she thought he'd landed and wasn't exiting in a timely fashion. I'd love to hear how that phone call went.
They both went around AND she landed them in different runway.....
@@Taylexwow When 947 was asked to exit the runway, only one of the aircraft on approach had been instructed to go around.
Always listen carefully to what ATC is telling others, as LTA947 obviously did. I've had this happen twice, once cleared to land with someone waiting on the numbers and the second time I was waiting when they cleared someone to land on me. I believe both times the controller "forgot" they hadn't cleared the waiting aircraft to take off and in their minds the runway was clear. I will never again line up and wait for more than 30 seconds without getting an explanation of what I'm waiting for. I've probably annoyed a few controllers by that, but I'm still alive and they're still employed, so we're all good. They've saved my butt a couple times too by not assuming I had everything under control when I didn't.
Quick question for pilots in the channel? Could 368 or 179 question tower's land instruction? KNowing there was an aircraft lined up and waiting on runway?
Is it normal at IND to give continuous vectors to aircraft in the traffic pattern?
947 should replied: copy a number? Mark the tape." Hell, he should have said it before she even got to the number.
Where is everyone getting this “no more than 30 seconds on the runway” rule after being given line up and wait. Never heard of it.
Either fake pilots, or company / school policy. Personally it's always just been an unspoken common sense thing. If you hear Tower clear 2 planes for landing and you're still sitting on the active, speak up. Never heard a rule about it, but if any company or school has a rule on it, it's a good one.
@@WestAirAviationcompletely agree that having situational awareness of who is being cleared to land on the runway you’re departing from (or sitting on) is important. But I can think of numerous occasions in which “line up and wait” has been given and sat on the runway for longer than 30 seconds without inbound traffic. Usually it’s because of other traffic on a cross runway or a nearby airport. Point is that a rule doesn’t exist. I’d encourage anyone to challenge the next controller after being given “line up and wait” and 0:31 on the clock…. That’ll go well.
@@cajinguy218 Oh absolutely. Did my training at KFRG. Those controllers will chew you up and spit you out for hogging up their radio like that during peak summer flying.
Personally I don't mind getting yelled at anymore. If asking questions gets me put in a hold it is what it is. I'd rather let the AP do circles than be on a TH-cam video with people asking what I was thinking.
The AIM avoids giving a defined time in 5-2-5-c: "If a takeoff clearance is not received within a reasonable amount of time after clearance to line up and wait, ATC should be contacted." but it does have the note "FAA analysis of accidents and incidents involving aircraft holding in position indicate that two minutes or more elapsed between the time the instruction was issued to line up and wait and the resulting event (for example, land-over or go-around). Pilots should consider the length of time that they have been holding in position whenever they HAVE NOT been advised of any expected delay to determine when it is appropriate to query the controller." So 30 seconds might be a little short but a minute wouldn't be unreasonable. AIM also says "ATC will normally withhold landing clearance to arrival aircraft when another aircraft is in position and holding on the runway." so if you hear someone get cleared to land when you are LUAW and they don't mention you as traffic in that clearance, definitely call ATC to remind them.
All the signs of an incomplete Position Relief Briefing between the male and female controllers.
Lift 947 had to clear the runway due to,ATC screwup ? Talk about ATC losing the picture ! And then HE gets the dreaded number to call ?
Getting a number to call is not always a dreaded issue, and often times it is due to an ATC mistake, or the mistake of another aircraft. The only time I got a number to call was when I was on approach in to OAK, runway 30, and a helicopter taking off out of Hayward busted an altitude, creating an RA for me. I didn't screw up, and ATC didn't screw up. But I still got a number to call. ATC wanted to apologize to me and explain what had happened with the helicopter. That is all it was.
Just a matter of when, not if…..
Don’t be over dramatic. There might have been a screw up, but nobody was put in danger.
@@rtbrtb_dutchy4183 Do you not follow.how.many of these runway incursions occur because of ATC screw ups?
@rtbrtb_dutchy4183 LOL yeah no one was put in danger, other than everyone onboard all 3 aircraft that were cleared to have a fiery mangled collision. If you want to see what happens when one aircraft lands on a runway occupied by another GA aircraft, then look at the fatal accident of N48962.
@@sintillate1913 so, what you are saying in this instance: tower forgets airplane on runway. Airplane on runway stays quiet. First airplane cleared to land doesn’t see airplane in the middle of the runway and continues. First airplane lands on the numbers and instead of braking and coming to a taxi speed before getting to that airplane, he continues at high speed, no time to brake in time. Then the second airplane, misses all that and also lands and repeats what the first airplane did. Is that what you are saying?
The first airplane would’ve simply asked at some point if that other airplane was going to clear the runway. That’s when the tower would’ve caught it.
Your “accident” was an uncontrolled airport. The T-28 and Cessna were both landing. The T28 was blinded by the sun. None of this was the same situation as this video. Except there was airplanes and a runway involved.
@@davidwebb4904 ah, because we now have TH-cam and people recording this stuff, you think this isn’t something we have dealt with for 50 years? Yes, mistakes are made occasionally. But systems are in place to catch the mistakes. Like in this video, others realized what was happening. No one was in danger.
Some of theATC's remind me of the drivers i encou ter daily on the strees and highways.
Did the tower screw up? Yes. But for the pilot to sit on the runway for that long is a screw up too.
You don’t sit on a runway for more than 30 seconds, unless the tower told you to expect a delay.
What? If you have been instructed to line up and wait, you wait until you are given further instructions. Certainly you should ask for an update if you feel something is wrong but you can definitely be on a runway for considerably longer than 30 seconds.
@@jqxok I never said you can’t be on the runway longer than 30 seconds. But it has to be clarified as to why.
If they tell you to line up and wait and don’t hear anything for 30 seconds, you should ask questions.
I get told to line up and wait a lot of times, without an immediate departure, but they tell me:
“Line up and wait, there are 2 departures from a crossing runway, before it’s your turn”.
“Line up and wait, expect take off clearance in 2 min.”
If those aren’t given to you, you should expect a take off clearance relatively quick.
Maybe should have called ATC sooner, but that 20 seconds is pure garbage, no FAR even hints at a 30 second delay
@@EllsworthJohnson-ui1xm did I say this is in the FAR. What I’m saying is, a conscious pilot should start to try and figure out why he or she is still holding on the runway.
As a pilot, the worst thing is sitting on the runway for an extended period of time, because you simply can’t see behind you.
You can’t just sit on the runway for minutes without knowing why. If you accept that, you are completely out of the loop. You don’t wait 5 minutes before you start talking. You don’t even wait 2 minutes.
This isn’t about rules or regulations in the FARs, this is common sense.
Why are u sitting 5 min quiet? Say something
Apparently people here in the comment section are unable to recognize the difference between a man's and a woman's voice. Everyone are blaming the female controller for forgetting the "line-up and wait" instruction but it's the commenters themselves that are forgetting that it was the male controller that messed up.
yeah, he probably ended his shift and didn't tell the person that took over
There's a reason they are in a tower. She's supposed to check the runway visually as well.
Good on that pilot for calling out ATC on their mistake and fairly shocking that ATC seemed to be oblivious to their mistake for a long time after being told. Per the AIM, if you are told to line up and wait and you have not been cleared to take off after a minute or two, you should remind the controller that you are still lined up. Also, if you hear the controller clear another plane to land while you are lined up and they do not include as part of the clearance the mandatory warning to the landing aircraft about "traffic holding in position", then the controller likely forgot about you and you should remind them.
Lift 947 maintained good situational awareness to remind tower he’s still on the runway when another aircraft was cleared to land. I’m sure that phone call will include a request to review the tower tape. It is bothersome that ATC is quick to hammer pilots with possible pilot deviation. The question is, what kind of report goes to the FAA when ATC screws up?
There was no mention of a pilot deviation. As others have said, it is normal to get the pilot to call so that they can get to the bottom of the incident
Another reason to quit flying ,incompetant ATC .
The one in India is more epic. There’s video about that traffic separation. Why are we hating on efficiency
ATC standards are falling across the country
possibly due to DEI?
These atc guys/girls are really really getting some egos
I'm impressed that the aircraft on the runway was able to call as calmly as he did. I would have had a difficult time not expressing anger.
That was a very dangerous mistake by the tower.
She broke protocol because if a pilot asked for a controllers initials, they must give it out! There’s a reason why they don’t say a name so they can give it out over the radio
I get that she was trying her best, but in this day and age people think that they cannot be held accountable in the public eye
im seeing a common denominator with a lot of these ATC screw ups....
Tower, possible controller deviation. I have a number for you to call.
Ah. The old, line up and wait while I am being replaced near disaster.
Why was 947 required to call? He did exactly and only what he was instructed to do!
🍌🤨
I don't think anyone is arguing that he was *required* to...
I think he requested the number to file a complaint.
@@Kalikus808
But he did literally nothing wrong! The controller was at fault!
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@@HeinrichDixon Exactly! That's why he requested the number so that he could lodge a complaint. You try not to do this over the frequency and take up air time.
@@watsinit4me
There is nothing in this clip to support the idea that the PILOT requested the number.
🍌🤔
again???
Controllers seem immune from getting any criticism, while the sitting safely in their tower.
It’s crazy to have a flight school at an International airport.
No. I did tons of training at SLC, and it is and was a hub for delta. I don’t think any is done there now.
This is further ATC incompetence at US airports. In my opinion, the US system simply doesn’t have the training or staffing capacity to safely handle procedures that allow the clearance of multiple aircraft to use the same runway simultaneously. In Europe we do not routinely allow this. Sure, maybe at some exceptionally busy airports where there are special precautions in place, but not at fields with light to moderate traffic where a controller can clear an aircraft onto a runway and just forget about it. In Europe, the aircraft the controller forgot, LTA947 sitting on the runway, on hearing a landing clearance to the same runway would have sounded the alarm. Another few slices of cheese in the Swiss Cheese model of aviation safety would not go amiss. Here, LTA179 would have been cleared to “continue, traffic departing ahead, expect late landing clearance”, and would have remained go-around minded until cleared. That is a safe way to handle situations like this and it baffles me that it appears so alien to our US cousins. There have been so many close calls recently from US controllers losing track of one or more aircraft they have cleared to the same runway simultaneously. Sadly it’s only a matter of time before disaster strikes, and it will not be for lack of awareness that there is a problem.
Get her out of the tower before she kills someone.
You mean "him"? She's not the one who instructed a plane to line up and wait and then cleared two planes to land...
Ever made a mistake, ever? That is what happened and I am sure it will be reviewed. Not everyone is perfect like you.
Don't let facts get in the way of bias.
not like the old days when we had REAL air traffic controllers controlling the skies (and runways). This was pathetic.
A CONTROLLER PROBLEM ! Not pilot error !!
You mean with today's technology we have no way for an alarm to signal if a plane is sitting on an active runway for 5 minutes?
Equity hire?
You can take the sass out of your voice and mark the tapes...now give me the number...
Geez...can you imagine the attitude if it were a pilot deviation?
Unbelievable ATC. Gives pilot a number to call as though he messed up! SHE messed up big time, clearly forgetting she had already told him to line up and wait. The arrogance of some of these US controllers is staggering, and it seems to be getting worse. Shockingly incompetent ATC and also unwilling to admit she was not just wrong, but potentially wrong enough to cause a major accident.
I suggest you listen again. She did not tell him to line up and wait. A male controller did. As others have said, this has all the signs of a poor handover from the male controller to the female controller. It is clear she didn't even know whether 947 was arriving or departing. And giving the pilot a number to call does not mean he messed up. It means they need to investigate what happened. It can be an ATC mistake or another aircraft's mistake. Giving him a number to call was perfectly normal and absolutely the right thing to do.
@@prh47bridge Why assume the female being handed off the controls did not just forget what was handed off to her and assume it was the male handing off that forgot to let her know?
@@SheriffChuck81-qq5vq A poor handover encompasses both the outgoing controller forgetting to tell her things and her not taking in what she is being told. Why are you so keen to blame the woman?
Female controller? Say no more…
LTA947: "Tower, I have a number for you to call...800-EAT-S#!t. We can talk about your reckless and inept ATC skills and you can profusely apologize for trying to get me killed. By the way, are there a number of DEI hires in your tower?"
First comment? Cool
The fastest hand on the wild west!😁
Extremely over rated.
Anyone still claiming human's are the best for ATC are mentally ill. This is a typical human error, something a well designed software implementation would never do. This is pathetic in 2024.
Spoken like a true non-developer 😂
Because software never malfunctions
They are the best still. Software cannot do this at this moment. Software is helping though.
@@AkilanNarayanaswamy I'm a developer and one at critical financial systems at that.
@@rtbrtb_dutchy4183 Regulations are the only thing keeping the status quo, nothing else. Software has all the capability.