This problem was solved by barrel organ makers over 100 years ago, you pin the songs to the barrel side by side and then shift the barrel sideways so that each songs pins line up with the readers. Apart from needing a barrel wide enough to accommodate the multiple pins, it's an elegant solution which allows one barrel to play many songs. Not sure that re-inventing the wheel (literally) is always the answer, even if it is fun!
He already knows i believe he's using it to extend the music in a song rather than switching songs due to the wheel moving faster but I'm not sure and i can't find the video where he goes over how he's using it. Not that anything is set in stone right now anyway.
Next time Marting re-reinvents the wheel the songs will be on long paper scrolls with holes in them. The scroll will be continuously fed on and off the wheel from behind and a light inside will shine through the holes and project the song as stars onto the ceiling.
I would recomend looking into having a "blank" programing "shroud" were you can put in the manual pins in, instead of having to dual design the wheel to fit pefectly with the shroud and the pins.
I'm gonna love watching Martin trying to design humungous wheels that hinge and come apart like this while still maintaining the kind of accuracy he's been obsessing over
Not to mention that they will be unwieldy and heavy. At times Martin does illustrate his shortcomings with design and manufacturing with exuberance and reckless abandon.
That's true, but remember that he's not using pins directly anymore. The kind of whale readers are meant to provide that solid base as long as they can still slot in. So as long as nothing is damaged to the point where entire assemblies are breaking off, it should be fine. That said.. That's a non-trivial assumption haha. (but this also illustrates why you need to have tight tolerances where you can get them because they WILL get loose elsewhere).
I really like that Martin is trying new ways to improve the process. I worry that taking off the song roll will be large and heavy and replacing it with another song might have some pins that are damaged in the process.
I pretty much have the same concern after even watching a few minutes. At scale that thing would be too heavy and tolerances will bring him back to the start - too much variance and not tight enough.
It would be easier to switch songs if the sections were not all attached. The hooks would have to be duplicated per section, and there would have to be some way for technicians to know the right order, but that seems doable.
Just as a thought from a manufacturing perspective. If you're planning on taking the marble machine on a world tour material wear should definitely be considered. After lots of use some parts are going to have to be replaced, especially if made from low wear resistant material such as plastics and rubbers. I would suggest either making the song wheels out of a wear resistant/durable material (at least one harder than the cam followers) and then use a softer, modular cam follower that can be easily replaced. That way you can keep the songs healthy all the time and only have to replace the followers for maintenance. That's just my two cents as an (almost) Mechanical Engineer
I feel like I've been screaming "material wear" into the void ever since he tested the marble droppers to the millisecond, while even a tiny bit of wear will be much more relevant to playing tight music.
Just because the end result should have no electricity, doesn’t mean it can’t in development. You could have a module for the wheel, and a module with a little speaker for each of the instruments. Then just swap them out as the mechanical parts get built. You then wouldn’t have to build it all at the same time or be locked into early design decisions.
I was thinking something similar: When Martin is done making a song on the programming wheel, it might be nice to have some system of sensors for recording the configurations of profiles from which the final song profiles can be made. Then he could just hook up the programming wheel to this system, give it a single spin, and perhaps even generate the CAD files for the final song profiles right then and there.
The only thing I would change is have each of the song panels individual instead of threaded together on a "belt". They will get heavy, it will be a lot easier to handle individual panels. They will also stack up nicely for transport.
@@Azakamak2401 The panels were a good idea, it was just hampered by the material selection of plywood. It made them very heavy and hard to align. Going with plastic and metal for the wheel should allow for a good fit and lighter panels.
Always find it amusing that without the original Marble Machine video, I wouldn't know anything about Wintergarten, but *now* I hear Martin jokingly hint at them playing in Wembly Stadium and my immediate reation is to see if I can buy tickets. Keep going, Marble Musician!
I'm from the future, in the end (50 years from now) Martin develops an incredible design, there are 2 parts, 1 is the programming disk that is a disc made of a kind of plastic material engraved with very small endentures, so small we can´t see them. Each programming disk holds up to 14 songs. the second part is a device with a rotating plate, a large cone and an arm with a needle on the point. you place the programming disk on the rotating plate and have the needle touch it, when the needle scratches the programing disk, the song comes out of the large cone. it is amazing.
It could be an additional option to program several songs next to each other on the wheel. Let's say you have three Songs A, B and C. And you have channels per instrument (in the following separated by "|"). If you then program the wheel like this: ABC|ABC|ABC|ABC|ABC|... you would start with the readers all over the A profiles. To switch to song B you just have to move the wheel about 1cm to the left, so that the readers are over the B profiles. Precondition: You have enough width of the programing wheel and/or the profiles and readers are thin enough.
I have been watching since before the MMX. Lots of love for the man & machine, I have lost the enjoyment. Good luck. I’ll check back in a few months as see the progress.
So glad to see you address the band. As much as I worship the marble machine, it's just another really cool instrument for your concerts, and it's good to see you finally bring that up.
Next week - "last week I showed a new design for the wheel. Today I show how it can no longer play tight music down to an inhuman like precision. I have decided to scrap the whole design and read what elon musk would do"
*@Wintergatan* 6:57 If the "song plates"(?) are sturdy enough, you could hang them as a background on the stage, then through the concert, the technicians comes and takes down the next part of the wall & attaches on the "song wheel"(?) and maybe hangs back up the old played song. In that way, you ALSO gets a dynamic background, and it not only is PART of the concert experience, it actually IS the experience too :D
A Marble Machine only playing the vibraphone (in a excellent and unique way) would be already way enough to get myself up and go to a concert and see Martin and the Band playing toegether with it❤
Martin needs to abandon the mechanical drives in order for this to work. There is absolutely no way he's going to get those two programming wheels synced mechanically. The two machines need to be driven by electric motors and synced electronically.
A nice thing about having """drum sheet""" like this, is it makes it a snap to stylize the drum for the song. A flowery song, and there's flowers and the like drawn on the sheet. The Marble Machine song could have falling marbles painted on the sheet. For very little cost, this adds another layer of style to the presentation.
I think that was a better idea: the combined 4 panel sections look incredibly cumbersome to load. Better to just have 4 plates and swap out each segment IMHO.
@@JeffreyJusticeLosey When Martin gets to the full scale, I'd bet he will make the skin from way more than just 4 sections. There's really no limit to how granular you could make that "chain", and a more flexible one would be a lot easier to transport and store.
With all plates attached though, this could alleviate potential alignment issues. Hypothetically. Maybe that's not too much of an issue though, I guess testing would have to show that.
As many others have said, definitely a BETTER idea, but is it a GOOD idea? Do the math on how much one of those would weigh in various different materials, how easily they're damaged (say dropping it from top of drum height), what would happen if a single track got bent to the side. Like, Stage hand is lifting up a sheet that weighs X kg, trying to latch it on a surface that spins freely, and has to actuate a lever to secure it? Maybe smaller sections, and magnets? I do like the idea peeps have mentioned about putting art directly on the drums. It'd go against your "purely mechanical" but a second reader tied to LED lights and delayed so you could light up each instrument as the marble hits would probably be a helluva effect.
I would really like to see a video talking about the design constraints that the venue itself is going to impose. How big is the typical stage? What size venues do you intend to book? How will things like this impact the size of the machine to be built? Also, where are your band members? I don't see them in your mock ups anywhere...
Martin, I have an insightful question for you: Why not to use programming caterpillars instead of just wheels? + I believe there are lots of standard manufactured furniture for caterpillars + song’s loop length may vary in a way you want Think about it 😉
Гусеницы - это treads, вряд ли просто caterpillars будет понятно. However, I absolutely support and look forward to programming caterpillars, that's going to look awesome!
Bicycle chains! They're fully standardized and can be bought mostly off the shelf. With tensioning idlers, you'd hardly have to worry much about timing precision. You could use one chain per channel, or have them mounted in small groups. This also opens up the possibility of intentionally mismatched loop lengths for different instrument groups, allowing you to play canon style evolutions.
I wish Martin understood how to progress toward your ultimate goal through a series of small projects. Instead of thinking of 100 little ways to improve the machine and implementing them all at once, he should just build one minimally viable machine and add improvements to it modularly and incrementally. The problem with that is that he may get to a point in which his previous design decisions prevent him from implementing the new improvements. Well, that's the point where you make another iteration of the machine. In the end, you'll solve all of the little problems faster and you'll end up with a few small viable machines in addition to the final one.
I'm so torn right now. One one hand I LOVE how much fun Martin is having, prototyping, playing and experimenting with different form factors. The energy is clearly there again and I'm all for it. It's fundamental to the existence of this project. But on the other hand, I'm getting more and more convinced that "world tour" is too much of a grand goal to aim at. At least for the intermediate future. The topic of this video is a perfect example: Making the MM "concert-compatible" raises the hard requirement of "switch out programming wheels in a timely manner". That requirement would be eliminated if the next MM would be just "studio recording-compatible". A slower, dumber, less flexible programming wheel design would suffice. It would also be much easier and quicker to achieve. I fear that bringing the MM to a world-tourable state will raise so many design and engineering challenges along the way, that there's a real danger of Martin running out of motivation before he ever reaches that ultimate goal. Contrast this with a way more achievable intermediate goal of studio-worthy MM. It may lack flexibility and the ultimate awesome skeleton clock appearance which is so important to Martin. But it would give him a win in the foreseeable future. Prove that the MM can indeed create music alongside the band and allow them to be creative again. And then, when that intermediate goal is done being celebrated, then he can take the core of that working MM and begin upgrading it to a tour-able state. Cut up the ultimate goal into manageable and achievable milestones.
@@mcspud Don't get me wrong, I want Martin to succeed. I've just seen his way of thinking sink many a project: "If we already know what the final form should be like, then it's only smart to make sure that every step along the way feeds into that ultimate goal". But this fear of building something that might not be used in the final machine is a huge risk factor. And it's definitely not iterative thinking. If you approach projects that way, then you are only ever building for that final, most complex form. You are giving yourself the task of going the most difficult path forward. And you are disallowing yourself to gain valuable understanding from intermediate versions of the machine. Just imagine how much Martin would learn - DOs and DONTs - if he ever created a MM that can "only" play studio music. Given that no MM has ever managed to make proper music - not even with untight, undynamic capabilities - it's crazy to think that just because he's approaching the project properly now, that he'll miraculously succeed with his highly complex idea for a world tour-able MM. It's one part to have the right approach. It's just as vital to set realistic goals.
@@geckomoshpit Hope in one hand, crap into the other, and see which fills faster. Marty has no interest in finishing anything, as he's making more money on TH-cam than he ever would as a musician, let alone one using a marble machine.
@@thomasbecker9676 While I believe you’re being overly cynical, I do understand to a degree where you are coming from. Martin has shown in the past that he leans heavily into the packaging aspect of his videos. He introduces some storytelling hook and uses them as a delivery vector for his weeklies. It started off innocently enough with “believe”, but then veered into self-help and optimisation books. Then DAOs (whatever that was). Then “failing” at the past two machines. In between several flavours du jour of design and engineering philosophies. There’s nothing wrong with pivoting your approach after learning that a previous thing didn’t work out for you. It’s also OK to go back to first steps, even if you have progressed before. Martin just did it too often in too short a time and that became fertile ground for scrutiny. I certainly never liked when it became apparent that he was introducing yet another storytelling hook and make them the main driver for the next few videos. I’d much rather he let the work do more of the talking. I’ll also say that there where a couple moments where it felt like he was holding back the true state of the machine and his plans and motivations and thus made it far more difficult for viewers to understand and get behind his decision making. So I agree that there’s some form of embellishment and impression steering going on. Yet… I don’t agree that it’s deliberate or scammy. Having watched Martin for many many years I truly believe he’s a great musician, an inquisitive mind and a fun entertainer with a great sense of humor. At the same time it was also apparent that he was struggling hard at times, possibly overwhelmed by his success, the masses of followers and Patreons and the implied pressure to deliver something spectacular. That I see as a main reason for some of his going off track and loosing focus. Even though I’m happy that he is rolling out videos again and is giving it his very best, I’m definitely faulting him for going wayyy to big and ambitious with this current attempt of his. As if he’s over-correcting for the past non-deliveries. I think he truly is his own biggest enemy right now and needs to pause, take in all the feedback and have a hard reality check. For his sake and to also keep a realistic promise towards his audience.
You probably still want 2 main wheels and have the main wheel to be pulled out backstage to switch tracks between songs. That would reduce the downtime between songs.
How about having a led strip / laser above the wheel, then all you need are reflective tape / punch card! You could even incorporate it in the show by projecting lights in sync with the program
The way I see this, doing it this way might negate potential alignment issues that'd come from moving and removing a wheel. But it's still a possibility.
Quite frankly having downtime between songs should not be a problem. The whole point of touring with this machine would be to show off the machine, that includes seeing the songs be switched. Make the song switching a feature of the concert instead of trying to hide it.
There is downtime hooking up the drive system to the other wheel though, I think the idea with the new method is even less downtime than switching wheels 7:40
@@whenturtlesattack Please, do not take what that guy says too seriously. All he ever does is talk shit and essentially promote failure, acting as if Martin's ideas will absolutely fail without question. Yet, he provides practically zero proof to back up his claims. Good thing very few commenters agree with him either.
Two possible ideas (that youve peobably already considered. But ill post em anyway). What about using thick paper (or like, very thin sheet metal) to create template holes that you can wrap around the wheel and manually place the pins that way? At the very least, it would remove the risk of mistakenly placing the wrong pins. And save time with setting it up without needing to deal with heavy attachments that could strain or break the wheel. Or alternatively, have the pins on simple springs within the wheel, and the outer template holds down all the pins that *arent* being used for the song. And In order to stop the pins from moving around during the music you could use some sort of locking mechanism that sets all the pins after the template has properly displaced the ones being used for that song. Then you could remove the template, which ensures it wont get damaged as easily.
I might just be an RC guy, but when i think of how heavy a chain is, a good one, and its say 20ft - 30ft long, its heavy. Now imagine one for each channel and all stuck together as one. Its going to take a crane or robot arms to change a song, which in itself may be a very cool stage show with lighting and the band playing along. But also another thing to think of is traveling with this as a band. An album of songs now requires an extra semi truck, and special rack to isolate the songs from vibration and rubbing against each other and the truck and violent forklift operators, and all that extra fuel, not saying its a bad idea at all, it's just stuff to consider. But just imagine the song ends and automatically these arms come down and peel the song right off the barrel. They drop it behind the stage and pick up another and string it right back on to the barrel in a matter of a minute or less as everyone is asked how they feeling tonight. lol its awesome actually, I have been watching for years don't ever stop
Looks amazing! Maybe also explore how it would be if you used a songbook (like a street organ) or discs (like in the speelklok museum music machines) instead of wheels? If you try multiple options, you will be more sure that it works! (and you wont get tunnel vision)
I agree! It could be that focusing too much on the idea of the wheel design could be actually jeopardizing the overall goal. There are many other types of machines. Why not make a few basic prototypes to see how they feel?
You could add reference pins/profiles to the wheel skeleton to increase skin placement accuracy during performances. Then, you could have a programmable skin that is just the baseline disengaged profile level with slots for profile insertion.
Doesn't he still have to find solutions to reliably index all the wheels so they all start at the correct note, then synchronize the speed of multiple wheels so some instruments aren't playing faster than others, etc, etc?
acording to your scale model the chain of programmation panels would be 1x2.5m , that would be heavy and not easy to carry around , having solid and precise pannels is a must for live play but maybe not chaining them or making smaller chain would be mor practical , but it would require more registration point for precise assembly also i would suggest having a different wheel for manual programing and song designing , world tour wheels don't need to be over complicated have a nice day
The base wheel idea is pretty solid I think. What would benefit you once the machine is built is to have a manually programmable shroud that you can install like a normal song but it lets you play and compose on the real machine just like the old ones. This way you can perfect your compositions and practice with the band all while you have finalized songs sent off for manufacture from what you've created.
Stop. He's clearly said he has no interest in building anything but the full experience that he's dreaming of. Your comments aren't helping anyone and nobody's forcing you to keep watching.
Another way to bring the songs to the profile could be a plugin for logic (or whatever software you are using). The song you create in the software could be converted into the CAD profile using the plugin. This way you could create a song fully digitally and with the click of a button get the design for the profile.
@@anders_lindqvist lol when I compose for mechanical instruments I actually compose ON the instrument; not on a midi version, because it doesn't work. Even if he can manage to make this machine as "sanitized" as a possible it won't be as a sampled instrument.
@@valdir7426 What do you mean by "won't work"? The programming wheel is a grid of notes on/off. Midi is (if you so wish, which you would) a grid of notes on/off. Soundwise, he can make a good approximation by sampling the actual instruments, if he wants to. But even that is not crucial. If the timing is off that is a machine calibration issue (something Martin no doubt will put much effort into anyway). Not a midi to programming wheel issue.
Now we just need New Music to go with it - speaking of, Happy 11th birthday to the Only Wintergatan Album! Hopefully we get album 2 before the 20th birthday
Hey, regarding the composing while playing, you can make a mechanism to auto remove all programming pins after it was used in 2 staps, the first stap slightly lifts the pins up. The second step removes it in its entirety. If you want a pin to be replayed during a loop you just prett it in slightly. The other ones will be removed entirely.
My thoughts exactly. Especially when Martin goes off with his "tight" music rants. A laptop and DAW driving a midi interface with solenoids solves a multiple of issues instead of his Rube Goldberg contraptions.
I think it would be much easier for producing the drum to have a blank music sheet, where you can compose the music by inserting the pecks, instead of inserting them directly into the drum. With this you could also directly compare the finished sheet with the original, composing sheet.
Martin, have you tried composing a song for a virtual marble machine? How do you know what you'll enjoy composing for if you haven't tried it yet? Like, make a song on a MIDI keyboard that could be played on a theoretical machine. Maybe have a version with 600 channels, guitar slides, and one without. Then you have a benchmark for what "excited" means, and what parts could be deleted or added back in. And if you need to spend 3 months writing a song, do it. That's what we're here for. Don't let these videos hold you back.
what he desperately should indeed have done with the mmx would have been to compose enough music to keep the interest going. plus it would have been a nice gesture towards the supporters who paid to get something musical out of it.
that undermines the whole point of being able to compose a song on the machine. this isn't fun and the result would certainly suffer. Working this many years on this to end up composing in logic that would probably be horrible for him.
@@valdir7426 it would make music which is arguably most important output from a musician. btw he composes on computer anyway which is where a lot of the perfectionism arises in the first place. he isn't going to compose on the machine and never was and he built a studio with all the normal modern composing tools. he is admittedly trying to build a machine that would play as well as a solenoid dropper would work - or it's actually more absurd than that he wants it to be more precise than a solenoid dropper ie LESS organic sounding than a solenoid dropper.
@@l8toriginal719 that they all have different jobs and there isn't any music or gigs pretty much does mean that. the end result is that the tour would need to be up front funded for them to take the risk of getting on it since they all have their own careers going on. they haven't trained or been in the same space consistently for years now. sure it would make it a bit strange for martin to never have acknowledge this but.. you know.. who knows what he means with 'his band' anyway, maybe he thinks he'll get a band together after he gets the machine made and when he makes the hit songs that would support the tour.
I have 2 suggestions: - Be able to remove and reload the wheel in the normal direction of operation: don't go the wrong way and break components unintentionally due to the wrong direction. - Make it part by part: to be able to make transitions between pieces of music, for example by replacing a part (with the pins already planned) while it's playing. Or to make it easier to play, you never know. It's better to plan for all the possibilities. Fixed pins are a good solution for concerts. It will avoid the problem of pins coming loose when the music is being transported or (un)loaded.
why build full wheel programs? that would be super heavy. you can build four levers on the wheel and replace a quarter wheel at a time. that way you can mix and match! if you divide the programming wheel by instrument and put levers on both sides, you can have 8 swappable programs on a single wheel! the programs will be lighter and easier to travel with this way. more modular too.
idk if this is what you meant, but this reminds me of how old music boxes would "switch" songs, by moving along to a different set of pins which are on the same wheel. This is a very cool idea.
For when you program on the wheel itself, you can design a reader that converts your composition to midi and a program that converts that midi into a cad file for the permanent wheel skin.
Martin - make the wheel remotely programmable. You send it a song, and the programming pins reset themselves to whatever song you choose. No moving the wheel, no changing its skin. Ready, faster.
One of the first issues the comes to mind is the human power required to remove and insert the new design on the wheel. Even if the rings are laser/water cut in thin plastic still take into consideration the total weight of the mechanism.
@@thomasbecker9676 what happened to the guy with the beard? im not sure what his name was but he was at some of the design videos last year feels like he just vanished from the Wintergatan project
This is the first time in a few years that I've heard Martin describe that the BAND will be an integral part of the concert. They haven't played together in years though so I'm a bit worried that Wintergatan the band will no longer be 'a thing'. Here's hoping...
I definitely think this wheel programming kit idea would work very well, keep to the channels you already plan on using and don't try to expand it. Other than that one suggestion, I see no feature creep here. Brilliant little prototype. Also, while I can't back you as a regular funding source, I did buy the Speldosa VST, and I actually patch it into my mic channel via a modular host program for voice chat and recordings, it's so much fun! Keep up the great work, and I hope to see you on that world tour one day!
It takes time to design something, and I get the wish to design it fully before building it, since it is really the safest way to make sure everything goes well. It is an insanely complex machine, with so many parts to keep in mind, it is expected for it to take months if not years to be designed, especially because Martin is just a single person.
@@Lodit24 a part of a good design process is to set a clear goal, and more importantly limitations. Martin however is not a good designer in that aspect, because he keeps changing his design goal throughout the process and expects perfection from every part. This project will remain endless at this rate.
Redesigning the machine keeps the patreon money flowing. Finishing the machine makes the patreon money stop. Therefore the incentive is not to finish the machine.
@@Troglobitten good thing this is an art project and not an engineering project. It will cost what it costs and take what it takes. One thing is for certain it'll either never exist or be badass.
i think this idea is pretty great! its essentially what old automatic pianos use, just a large piece of premade sheet music for the machine,, my only concern with marble machine version would be weight, you'll need to make sure it small and light enough to be installed by 1 or 2 people. so keep in mind the weight of this new piece once it comes time for manufacturing
Please put some of review process on exactly what a "world tour" should look like. On a stage, only people in very front might get a decent view of the machine mechanics, and then only from one point of view. A better format for you is a convention hall where viewers can be much closer and move around it and come and go to other exhibits.
Agree, "world tour" sounds great, but is still somewhat vague. You might technically call it a word tour, even if you just tour some Central European countries. But "world tour" typically implies visiting several contents. Which immediately ramps up the logistical requirements and constraints for the machine by a lot. So being clearer on what the world tour IS and what type of venue they want to play in, will inform the form factor and design requirements a lot.
Sorry, but you took that comment way out of context. Martin was saying that if he had a machine with, for example, 300 channels instead of, for example, 600 channels, and if he could delete delete delete but without totally sacrificing musicality, it'll still be good. Don't take it so literally. Did he actually say, "this machine will have either 300 channels or 600 channels", literally? I certainly did not get that impression anywhere.
@@ArrakisMusicOfficial Um, no! picking big numbers does not automatically prove anything. It doesn't! What if he simply overexaggerate it with big numbers purely to make a point? I've done this myself before, as have other people.
Unfortunately, people need to realize this guy is milking everyone. He clearly has no intention of completing his machine. He is just stalling the design to keep the Patreon money rolling in. I suppose if you are happy with what he produces, who cares but worth knowing.
If you think of it, the hygen drive is kinda similar to the special power bar in a video game (ie. Tecken or Skate) The drive module could be featured as a more prominent and towering feature and could be designed in such a way that there are ropes, pulleys and a ratcheting mechanism so that the audience can interact with the machine and provide power to the drive module.
I doubt that, even if Martin dies before he finishes it (which I really hope doesn't happen), there will for sure be people who would finish it for him
@@kitebabe05 I guess that's a thing all creative people have in common: "This little detail is perfect, everyone will notice, I gotta fix it and make everything perfect!" and "I could just add this! And this! And this seems really cool too!" xD
visually this is going to be a lot, might be worth thinking on how to manage audience visual focus. some handy tips to help: you can hide areas of detail by having it all the same color/tone, so they can fall back. Draw our focus on the areas you want by highlighting with some shiny/bright bits. ie The marble rails, belts, catchers etc, paint them all black, or wood. layer two would probably be the wheels and instrument mounts. So, you could splurge and have cool brass fittings/flashy bits. Lastly, the mechanics behind you, think of this as the frame of a painting (Painting is martin). So solid shiny brass everywhere, and martin in the center.
"When I'm on the world tour..." Marty, come back to reality. You have nothing to show for all the videos you've made since you abandoned MMX. The band appears to have vanished. You don't appear to be learning any lessons. There's nothing wrong with going back to making music instead of beating this dead horse.
He purposely ignores YT commentary but yeah, I wish he'd just go back to making smaller instruments like the modulin. We could have had an entire orchestra of amazing working musical gadgets but instead all we get are busted marble machines.
@@JulianGrayMedia there is no band though. there is no tour. he is still "oh 300 channels!". the frameworks are still on the same level as someone who started few months ago. you could argue that he has learned a lot but it all goes just out the window the next month. he somehow learned to not use the vfd motor because of reasons and now thinks he will output 200 watts nonstop himself for duration of a concert. look the videos became and means to an end of their own and that's making a living. he already spent a lot (all) of money meant for the world tour prep, seemingly.
This problem was solved by barrel organ makers over 100 years ago, you pin the songs to the barrel side by side and then shift the barrel sideways so that each songs pins line up with the readers. Apart from needing a barrel wide enough to accommodate the multiple pins, it's an elegant solution which allows one barrel to play many songs. Not sure that re-inventing the wheel (literally) is always the answer, even if it is fun!
He already knows i believe he's using it to extend the music in a song rather than switching songs due to the wheel moving faster but I'm not sure and i can't find the video where he goes over how he's using it. Not that anything is set in stone right now anyway.
Next time Marting re-reinvents the wheel the songs will be on long paper scrolls with holes in them. The scroll will be continuously fed on and off the wheel from behind and a light inside will shine through the holes and project the song as stars onto the ceiling.
Something similar exists: Player piano rolls
@@thefaulnt3562Something more similar exists, Martin's music box songs. Lovely music by the way, cannot recommend them enough!
I would recomend looking into having a "blank" programing "shroud" were you can put in the manual pins in, instead of having to dual design the wheel to fit pefectly with the shroud and the pins.
yes, making a song on the shroud seems like a better idea than having two entirely different mounting techniques
You're a time traveller from the future. Martin will get there. Just some more videos.
And you dont need extremly high pins. But what is with the caps betwen the elements. Is there never a pin on that position?
@@chnubu There could be pins that overhang those areas...
He will 3d print hundreds of profiles anyways...
@@PostNoteIt And then he'll immediately discard it.
I'm gonna love watching Martin trying to design humungous wheels that hinge and come apart like this while still maintaining the kind of accuracy he's been obsessing over
Not to mention that they will be unwieldy and heavy. At times Martin does illustrate his shortcomings with design and manufacturing with exuberance and reckless abandon.
That's true, but remember that he's not using pins directly anymore. The kind of whale readers are meant to provide that solid base as long as they can still slot in. So as long as nothing is damaged to the point where entire assemblies are breaking off, it should be fine. That said.. That's a non-trivial assumption haha. (but this also illustrates why you need to have tight tolerances where you can get them because they WILL get loose elsewhere).
@@pthalodezinThat's what makes it art and not engineering lol
@@pthalodezin "At times?"
@@billhutchinson6318 I've heard Martin say the words "engineer" and "engineering" 100x more often than "art"
I really like that Martin is trying new ways to improve the process.
I worry that taking off the song roll will be large and heavy and replacing it with another song might have some pins that are damaged in the process.
i'm worried that they will need a forklift to get the thing on!
I pretty much have the same concern after even watching a few minutes. At scale that thing would be too heavy and tolerances will bring him back to the start - too much variance and not tight enough.
He has no intent to build anything.
It would be easier to switch songs if the sections were not all attached. The hooks would have to be duplicated per section, and there would have to be some way for technicians to know the right order, but that seems doable.
@@thomasbecker9676 that's the goal for now, is to experiment and brainstorm at some point he will build again
Just as a thought from a manufacturing perspective. If you're planning on taking the marble machine on a world tour material wear should definitely be considered. After lots of use some parts are going to have to be replaced, especially if made from low wear resistant material such as plastics and rubbers. I would suggest either making the song wheels out of a wear resistant/durable material (at least one harder than the cam followers) and then use a softer, modular cam follower that can be easily replaced. That way you can keep the songs healthy all the time and only have to replace the followers for maintenance.
That's just my two cents as an (almost) Mechanical Engineer
He has no intention on finishing this machine, so concerns about wear are moot.
I feel like I've been screaming "material wear" into the void ever since he tested the marble droppers to the millisecond, while even a tiny bit of wear will be much more relevant to playing tight music.
I know IGUS make some great plastics. Which products were you thinking of?
Why would he have no intention of finishing it@@thomasbecker9676
@@thomasbecker9676yeah he just milks money
Just because the end result should have no electricity, doesn’t mean it can’t in development. You could have a module for the wheel, and a module with a little speaker for each of the instruments. Then just swap them out as the mechanical parts get built. You then wouldn’t have to build it all at the same time or be locked into early design decisions.
I was thinking something similar: When Martin is done making a song on the programming wheel, it might be nice to have some system of sensors for recording the configurations of profiles from which the final song profiles can be made. Then he could just hook up the programming wheel to this system, give it a single spin, and perhaps even generate the CAD files for the final song profiles right then and there.
I wish that I could upvote this 1000 times.
I would use midi controlled solenoids instead of pins to accelerate composition.
The only thing I would change is have each of the song panels individual instead of threaded together on a "belt". They will get heavy, it will be a lot easier to handle individual panels. They will also stack up nicely for transport.
Also, the heavier it gets, the more stresses they will feel, and the more they may stress and warp
Yeah, doing something like what he was doing with the MMX panels might work even better with this system.
@@Azakamak2401 The panels were a good idea, it was just hampered by the material selection of plywood. It made them very heavy and hard to align. Going with plastic and metal for the wheel should allow for a good fit and lighter panels.
That was the original idea for the MMX
Also, making them a long belt, any error would be cumulative, manifesting in a really noticeable way where the two ends come together.
I love how Martin acknowledges that his drum solution is essentially the same as the original, but much better designed.
More engineered ≠ better designed
Martin: make smart requerimentos.
Also Martin: a even more complicated Idea every day
Un bot a repris ton commentaire et il fait plus de like que toi, je suis désolé pour toi 😢
Always find it amusing that without the original Marble Machine video, I wouldn't know anything about Wintergarten, but *now* I hear Martin jokingly hint at them playing in Wembly Stadium and my immediate reation is to see if I can buy tickets. Keep going, Marble Musician!
I'm from the future, in the end (50 years from now) Martin develops an incredible design, there are 2 parts, 1 is the programming disk that is a disc made of a kind of plastic material engraved with very small endentures, so small we can´t see them. Each programming disk holds up to 14 songs. the second part is a device with a rotating plate, a large cone and an arm with a needle on the point. you place the programming disk on the rotating plate and have the needle touch it, when the needle scratches the programing disk, the song comes out of the large cone. it is amazing.
These models are so fun! This design process might not be the fun part but its still very worth while!
It could be an additional option to program several songs next to each other on the wheel. Let's say you have three Songs A, B and C. And you have channels per instrument (in the following separated by "|"). If you then program the wheel like this: ABC|ABC|ABC|ABC|ABC|... you would start with the readers all over the A profiles. To switch to song B you just have to move the wheel about 1cm to the left, so that the readers are over the B profiles.
Precondition: You have enough width of the programing wheel and/or the profiles and readers are thin enough.
Similar to audio on a 8 track cartridge. Track 1, 2, 3, 4.
I have been watching since before the MMX. Lots of love for the man & machine, I have lost the enjoyment. Good luck. I’ll check back in a few months as see the progress.
So glad to see you address the band. As much as I worship the marble machine, it's just another really cool instrument for your concerts, and it's good to see you finally bring that up.
Next week - "last week I showed a new design for the wheel. Today I show how it can no longer play tight music down to an inhuman like precision. I have decided to scrap the whole design and read what elon musk would do"
*@Wintergatan*
6:57 If the "song plates"(?) are sturdy enough, you could hang them as a background on the stage, then through the concert, the technicians comes and takes down the next part of the wall & attaches on the "song wheel"(?) and maybe hangs back up the old played song.
In that way, you ALSO gets a dynamic background, and it not only is PART of the concert experience, it actually IS the experience too :D
Having flashbacks of the MMX program segments and their timing/alignment problems...
A Marble Machine only playing the vibraphone (in a excellent and unique way) would be already way enough to get myself up and go to a concert and see Martin and the Band playing toegether with it❤
We are experiencing a mans slow descent into madness.
I'm glad to hear that Wintergatan is still a band ❤
Martin needs to abandon the mechanical drives in order for this to work. There is absolutely no way he's going to get those two programming wheels synced mechanically. The two machines need to be driven by electric motors and synced electronically.
A nice thing about having """drum sheet""" like this, is it makes it a snap to stylize the drum for the song. A flowery song, and there's flowers and the like drawn on the sheet. The Marble Machine song could have falling marbles painted on the sheet.
For very little cost, this adds another layer of style to the presentation.
This is the same way to change songs from MMX. 4 pieces were just combined into one.
exactly what i was thinking lmao
I think that was a better idea: the combined 4 panel sections look incredibly cumbersome to load. Better to just have 4 plates and swap out each segment IMHO.
@@JeffreyJusticeLosey When Martin gets to the full scale, I'd bet he will make the skin from way more than just 4 sections. There's really no limit to how granular you could make that "chain", and a more flexible one would be a lot easier to transport and store.
With all plates attached though, this could alleviate potential alignment issues. Hypothetically. Maybe that's not too much of an issue though, I guess testing would have to show that.
Dito. Yes he seems to be stuck in a loop.
When thats large, it will be big and heavy, and it may be difficult to wrap it around delicately.
I love the concept, I feel like it could be amazing
As many others have said, definitely a BETTER idea, but is it a GOOD idea? Do the math on how much one of those would weigh in various different materials, how easily they're damaged (say dropping it from top of drum height), what would happen if a single track got bent to the side. Like, Stage hand is lifting up a sheet that weighs X kg, trying to latch it on a surface that spins freely, and has to actuate a lever to secure it? Maybe smaller sections, and magnets? I do like the idea peeps have mentioned about putting art directly on the drums. It'd go against your "purely mechanical" but a second reader tied to LED lights and delayed so you could light up each instrument as the marble hits would probably be a helluva effect.
I am also thinking, he is underestimating the weight and how difficult it can become handling those Parts.
I would really like to see a video talking about the design constraints that the venue itself is going to impose. How big is the typical stage? What size venues do you intend to book? How will things like this impact the size of the machine to be built? Also, where are your band members? I don't see them in your mock ups anywhere...
Martin, I have an insightful question for you:
Why not to use programming caterpillars instead of just wheels?
+ I believe there are lots of standard manufactured furniture for caterpillars
+ song’s loop length may vary in a way you want
Think about it 😉
Гусеницы - это treads, вряд ли просто caterpillars будет понятно.
However, I absolutely support and look forward to programming caterpillars, that's going to look awesome!
Bicycle chains!
They're fully standardized and can be bought mostly off the shelf. With tensioning idlers, you'd hardly have to worry much about timing precision.
You could use one chain per channel, or have them mounted in small groups. This also opens up the possibility of intentionally mismatched loop lengths for different instrument groups, allowing you to play canon style evolutions.
I wish Martin understood how to progress toward your ultimate goal through a series of small projects. Instead of thinking of 100 little ways to improve the machine and implementing them all at once, he should just build one minimally viable machine and add improvements to it modularly and incrementally.
The problem with that is that he may get to a point in which his previous design decisions prevent him from implementing the new improvements. Well, that's the point where you make another iteration of the machine. In the end, you'll solve all of the little problems faster and you'll end up with a few small viable machines in addition to the final one.
I'm so torn right now.
One one hand I LOVE how much fun Martin is having, prototyping, playing and experimenting with different form factors. The energy is clearly there again and I'm all for it. It's fundamental to the existence of this project.
But on the other hand, I'm getting more and more convinced that "world tour" is too much of a grand goal to aim at. At least for the intermediate future. The topic of this video is a perfect example: Making the MM "concert-compatible" raises the hard requirement of "switch out programming wheels in a timely manner". That requirement would be eliminated if the next MM would be just "studio recording-compatible". A slower, dumber, less flexible programming wheel design would suffice. It would also be much easier and quicker to achieve.
I fear that bringing the MM to a world-tourable state will raise so many design and engineering challenges along the way, that there's a real danger of Martin running out of motivation before he ever reaches that ultimate goal. Contrast this with a way more achievable intermediate goal of studio-worthy MM. It may lack flexibility and the ultimate awesome skeleton clock appearance which is so important to Martin. But it would give him a win in the foreseeable future. Prove that the MM can indeed create music alongside the band and allow them to be creative again.
And then, when that intermediate goal is done being celebrated, then he can take the core of that working MM and begin upgrading it to a tour-able state.
Cut up the ultimate goal into manageable and achievable milestones.
I'm feeling like he hasn't really broken out of the mindset that doomed the MMX.
Ye of little faith
@@mcspud Don't get me wrong, I want Martin to succeed. I've just seen his way of thinking sink many a project: "If we already know what the final form should be like, then it's only smart to make sure that every step along the way feeds into that ultimate goal". But this fear of building something that might not be used in the final machine is a huge risk factor. And it's definitely not iterative thinking. If you approach projects that way, then you are only ever building for that final, most complex form. You are giving yourself the task of going the most difficult path forward. And you are disallowing yourself to gain valuable understanding from intermediate versions of the machine. Just imagine how much Martin would learn - DOs and DONTs - if he ever created a MM that can "only" play studio music.
Given that no MM has ever managed to make proper music - not even with untight, undynamic capabilities - it's crazy to think that just because he's approaching the project properly now, that he'll miraculously succeed with his highly complex idea for a world tour-able MM.
It's one part to have the right approach. It's just as vital to set realistic goals.
@@geckomoshpit Hope in one hand, crap into the other, and see which fills faster. Marty has no interest in finishing anything, as he's making more money on TH-cam than he ever would as a musician, let alone one using a marble machine.
@@thomasbecker9676 While I believe you’re being overly cynical, I do understand to a degree where you are coming from.
Martin has shown in the past that he leans heavily into the packaging aspect of his videos. He introduces some storytelling hook and uses them as a delivery vector for his weeklies.
It started off innocently enough with “believe”, but then veered into self-help and optimisation books. Then DAOs (whatever that was). Then “failing” at the past two machines. In between several flavours du jour of design and engineering philosophies.
There’s nothing wrong with pivoting your approach after learning that a previous thing didn’t work out for you. It’s also OK to go back to first steps, even if you have progressed before. Martin just did it too often in too short a time and that became fertile ground for scrutiny. I certainly never liked when it became apparent that he was introducing yet another storytelling hook and make them the main driver for the next few videos. I’d much rather he let the work do more of the talking. I’ll also say that there where a couple moments where it felt like he was holding back the true state of the machine and his plans and motivations and thus made it far more difficult for viewers to understand and get behind his decision making.
So I agree that there’s some form of embellishment and impression steering going on. Yet… I don’t agree that it’s deliberate or scammy.
Having watched Martin for many many years I truly believe he’s a great musician, an inquisitive mind and a fun entertainer with a great sense of humor. At the same time it was also apparent that he was struggling hard at times, possibly overwhelmed by his success, the masses of followers and Patreons and the implied pressure to deliver something spectacular. That I see as a main reason for some of his going off track and loosing focus.
Even though I’m happy that he is rolling out videos again and is giving it his very best, I’m definitely faulting him for going wayyy to big and ambitious with this current attempt of his. As if he’s over-correcting for the past non-deliveries.
I think he truly is his own biggest enemy right now and needs to pause, take in all the feedback and have a hard reality check. For his sake and to also keep a realistic promise towards his audience.
You probably still want 2 main wheels and have the main wheel to be pulled out backstage to switch tracks between songs. That would reduce the downtime between songs.
How about having a led strip / laser above the wheel, then all you need are reflective tape / punch card! You could even incorporate it in the show by projecting lights in sync with the program
@@pappajohndodgybob "I really want a mechanical marble machine without electricity. That's the big Idea" 8:13
The way I see this, doing it this way might negate potential alignment issues that'd come from moving and removing a wheel. But it's still a possibility.
Quite frankly having downtime between songs should not be a problem. The whole point of touring with this machine would be to show off the machine, that includes seeing the songs be switched. Make the song switching a feature of the concert instead of trying to hide it.
There is downtime hooking up the drive system to the other wheel though, I think the idea with the new method is even less downtime than switching wheels 7:40
You are in the Renaissance of Marble Music Machine Design (MMMD). Keep up the great work 🤘 its been amazing seeing you progress over the years.
Progress suggests forward movement.
@@thomasbecker9676 ok.
@@whenturtlesattack Please, do not take what that guy says too seriously. All he ever does is talk shit and essentially promote failure, acting as if Martin's ideas will absolutely fail without question. Yet, he provides practically zero proof to back up his claims. Good thing very few commenters agree with him either.
Two possible ideas (that youve peobably already considered. But ill post em anyway).
What about using thick paper (or like, very thin sheet metal) to create template holes that you can wrap around the wheel and manually place the pins that way? At the very least, it would remove the risk of mistakenly placing the wrong pins. And save time with setting it up without needing to deal with heavy attachments that could strain or break the wheel.
Or alternatively, have the pins on simple springs within the wheel, and the outer template holds down all the pins that *arent* being used for the song. And In order to stop the pins from moving around during the music you could use some sort of locking mechanism that sets all the pins after the template has properly displaced the ones being used for that song. Then you could remove the template, which ensures it wont get damaged as easily.
Martin. You are becoming all over the place with this. It's not driving you insane is it?
I might just be an RC guy, but when i think of how heavy a chain is, a good one, and its say 20ft - 30ft long, its heavy.
Now imagine one for each channel and all stuck together as one.
Its going to take a crane or robot arms to change a song, which in itself may be a very cool stage show with lighting and the band playing along.
But also another thing to think of is traveling with this as a band.
An album of songs now requires an extra semi truck, and special rack to isolate the songs from vibration and rubbing against each other and the truck and violent forklift operators, and all that extra fuel, not saying its a bad idea at all, it's just stuff to consider.
But just imagine the song ends and automatically these arms come down and peel the song right off the barrel.
They drop it behind the stage and pick up another and string it right back on to the barrel in a matter of a minute or less as everyone is asked how they feeling tonight.
lol its awesome actually,
I have been watching for years don't ever stop
Looks amazing! Maybe also explore how it would be if you used a songbook (like a street organ) or discs (like in the speelklok museum music machines) instead of wheels? If you try multiple options, you will be more sure that it works! (and you wont get tunnel vision)
I agree! It could be that focusing too much on the idea of the wheel design could be actually jeopardizing the overall goal.
There are many other types of machines. Why not make a few basic prototypes to see how they feel?
i never even realized martin doesnt do sponsors
shoutouts to the patrons
You could add reference pins/profiles to the wheel skeleton to increase skin placement accuracy during performances.
Then, you could have a programmable skin that is just the baseline disengaged profile level with slots for profile insertion.
I see months of test coming up regarding how to get hinges and locks of removable song to “play tight music”😂😂😂
Doesn't he still have to find solutions to reliably index all the wheels so they all start at the correct note, then synchronize the speed of multiple wheels so some instruments aren't playing faster than others, etc, etc?
You’re talking tonnage for a whole show’s worth of music with that system.
very exiting to hear the band is still involved!
acording to your scale model the chain of programmation panels would be 1x2.5m , that would be heavy and not easy to carry around , having solid and precise pannels is a must for live play but maybe not chaining them or making smaller chain would be mor practical , but it would require more registration point for precise assembly
also i would suggest having a different wheel for manual programing and song designing , world tour wheels don't need to be over complicated
have a nice day
Yeah, that would definitely be too big for 1 person to handle alone... Which is an inherent safety issue.
The base wheel idea is pretty solid I think. What would benefit you once the machine is built is to have a manually programmable shroud that you can install like a normal song but it lets you play and compose on the real machine just like the old ones. This way you can perfect your compositions and practice with the band all while you have finalized songs sent off for manufacture from what you've created.
the endless design process❤
Why stop when he makes 1-3k per video that he does this for? He makes way more than any potential tour.
@@dtoad48 That is way he is doing it, all down to money not the design or project.
@@fromclicktoclickbeautifulp473 i highly doubt that
Whew that’s an ambitious leap forward in design, hope it works out, brilliant.
Can't wait to see him build the new machine
Don't hold your breath
Новой не будет! Вселенная не позволяет, фантазия ограничена😢😂😂😂
Lol, you'll be in the ground before that ever happens.
which one lol
Incredible engineering... Martin is so creative with his additions to the Machine :D
06:25 Martin: I'll be happy with a machine that has only 300 channels.
300!? 😫 Oh Martin. Please get this finished!
Stop. He's clearly said he has no interest in building anything but the full experience that he's dreaming of. Your comments aren't helping anyone and nobody's forcing you to keep watching.
It's called sarcasm mate. Martin is the king
I have the exact same filament color as your programming wheel. Sparkles 😊
Love watching this process Martin, once you have the design done, are you going to be building 2 identical machines for redundancy?
The design will never be done.
Another way to bring the songs to the profile could be a plugin for logic (or whatever software you are using). The song you create in the software could be converted into the CAD profile using the plugin. This way you could create a song fully digitally and with the click of a button get the design for the profile.
imagine working 10 years on a machine to end up working on a plugin in the end.
@@valdir7426 True 😂
Came here to write this. Would make composing an art (as it should be) and not a crossfit session.
@@anders_lindqvist lol when I compose for mechanical instruments I actually compose ON the instrument; not on a midi version, because it doesn't work. Even if he can manage to make this machine as "sanitized" as a possible it won't be as a sampled instrument.
@@valdir7426 What do you mean by "won't work"? The programming wheel is a grid of notes on/off. Midi is (if you so wish, which you would) a grid of notes on/off.
Soundwise, he can make a good approximation by sampling the actual instruments, if he wants to. But even that is not crucial.
If the timing is off that is a machine calibration issue (something Martin no doubt will put much effort into anyway). Not a midi to programming wheel issue.
Damn we early. Go Martin go
Since roughly middle school, I've been enthralled with the marble machine, fight that fight and bring us some epic mechanical music!
Feature request: The guys in white lab coats pick up which song to switch to based on how you feel at the moment telepathically
I guess I'm saying, nice job avoiding feature creep
Now we just need New Music to go with it - speaking of, Happy 11th birthday to the Only Wintergatan Album! Hopefully we get album 2 before the 20th birthday
The band is gone, man.
@@thomasbecker9676 i can dream, at least
Don’t invite any dragons into the design, Martin 🐉
Hey, regarding the composing while playing, you can make a mechanism to auto remove all programming pins after it was used in 2 staps, the first stap slightly lifts the pins up. The second step removes it in its entirety. If you want a pin to be replayed during a loop you just prett it in slightly. The other ones will be removed entirely.
You're going to play Song 2? Nice!
Woohoo!
I am so excited to watch a recording of one of the future shows on TH-cam... that will be one happy hour. Looking forward to it 😂❤🎉
Marten proving the point why microprocessors and software took over the hardware world.
My thoughts exactly. Especially when Martin goes off with his "tight" music rants. A laptop and DAW driving a midi interface with solenoids solves a multiple of issues instead of his Rube Goldberg contraptions.
I think it would be much easier for producing the drum to have a blank music sheet, where you can compose the music by inserting the pecks, instead of inserting them directly into the drum.
With this you could also directly compare the finished sheet with the original, composing sheet.
1:27 lol!!”look how happy model Martin is 😂👏🏽”
1:20
These models (especially the paper models) would make a badass stop motion concert teaser/trailer.
Martin, have you tried composing a song for a virtual marble machine? How do you know what you'll enjoy composing for if you haven't tried it yet? Like, make a song on a MIDI keyboard that could be played on a theoretical machine. Maybe have a version with 600 channels, guitar slides, and one without. Then you have a benchmark for what "excited" means, and what parts could be deleted or added back in. And if you need to spend 3 months writing a song, do it. That's what we're here for. Don't let these videos hold you back.
what he desperately should indeed have done with the mmx would have been to compose enough music to keep the interest going.
plus it would have been a nice gesture towards the supporters who paid to get something musical out of it.
that undermines the whole point of being able to compose a song on the machine. this isn't fun and the result would certainly suffer. Working this many years on this to end up composing in logic that would probably be horrible for him.
@@valdir7426 it would make music which is arguably most important output from a musician. btw he composes on computer anyway which is where a lot of the perfectionism arises in the first place. he isn't going to compose on the machine and never was and he built a studio with all the normal modern composing tools. he is admittedly trying to build a machine that would play as well as a solenoid dropper would work - or it's actually more absurd than that he wants it to be more precise than a solenoid dropper ie LESS organic sounding than a solenoid dropper.
Really nice solution Martin! Well done 👏
James (M.E)
Just throwing this out there… a Wintergatan/Blue Man Group collab would be EPIC
Yes!
I don't think WIntergatan exists anymore. It's been a decade.
@@thomasbecker9676 just because they don’t post much collaborative content doesn’t mean they’re not still working together.
@@l8toriginal719 that they all have different jobs and there isn't any music or gigs pretty much does mean that. the end result is that the tour would need to be up front funded for them to take the risk of getting on it since they all have their own careers going on. they haven't trained or been in the same space consistently for years now.
sure it would make it a bit strange for martin to never have acknowledge this but.. you know.. who knows what he means with 'his band' anyway, maybe he thinks he'll get a band together after he gets the machine made and when he makes the hit songs that would support the tour.
@@l8toriginal719 "Post much?" They don't post at all. Face it, they've grown up and moved on with their lives.
The machine layout is looking so good
The thermal dilation of the different materials in the programming wheel -plastic specially- could be a PITA.
I have 2 suggestions:
- Be able to remove and reload the wheel in the normal direction of operation: don't go the wrong way and break components unintentionally due to the wrong direction.
- Make it part by part: to be able to make transitions between pieces of music, for example by replacing a part (with the pins already planned) while it's playing. Or to make it easier to play, you never know. It's better to plan for all the possibilities.
Fixed pins are a good solution for concerts. It will avoid the problem of pins coming loose when the music is being transported or (un)loaded.
why build full wheel programs? that would be super heavy. you can build four levers on the wheel and replace a quarter wheel at a time. that way you can mix and match! if you divide the programming wheel by instrument and put levers on both sides, you can have 8 swappable programs on a single wheel! the programs will be lighter and easier to travel with this way. more modular too.
idk if this is what you meant, but this reminds me of how old music boxes would "switch" songs, by moving along to a different set of pins which are on the same wheel. This is a very cool idea.
That was the case on mmx, he'll get to there next episode hehe
For when you program on the wheel itself, you can design a reader that converts your composition to midi and a program that converts that midi into a cad file for the permanent wheel skin.
Underrated comment.
Martin - make the wheel remotely programmable. You send it a song, and the programming pins reset themselves to whatever song you choose. No moving the wheel, no changing its skin. Ready, faster.
What would that look like exactly? 2000 servo motors moving pins with controllers? Common bruh
One of the first issues the comes to mind is the human power required to remove and insert the new design on the wheel.
Even if the rings are laser/water cut in thin plastic still take into consideration the total weight of the mechanism.
you should start posting these on fridays and change the name to "fraud fridays"
Yeah, considering he seems to be the only member of Wintergatan left.
@@thomasbecker9676 what happened to the guy with the beard? im not sure what his name was but he was at some of the design videos last year
feels like he just vanished from the Wintergatan project
@@atanii4513 fighting for the idf, last i heard
Martin, I love your haircut! Proof that you put all effort into the Marble Machine.😅
When the machine is finally finished there wont be a stage in the world strong enough to take the weight.
That's what I call "form from function" I think it's a visually interesting and beautiful mechanism
This is the first time in a few years that I've heard Martin describe that the BAND will be an integral part of the concert. They haven't played together in years though so I'm a bit worried that Wintergatan the band will no longer be 'a thing'. Here's hoping...
I definitely think this wheel programming kit idea would work very well, keep to the channels you already plan on using and don't try to expand it. Other than that one suggestion, I see no feature creep here. Brilliant little prototype.
Also, while I can't back you as a regular funding source, I did buy the Speldosa VST, and I actually patch it into my mic channel via a modular host program for voice chat and recordings, it's so much fun!
Keep up the great work, and I hope to see you on that world tour one day!
The endless design process...
It takes time to design something, and I get the wish to design it fully before building it, since it is really the safest way to make sure everything goes well.
It is an insanely complex machine, with so many parts to keep in mind, it is expected for it to take months if not years to be designed, especially because Martin is just a single person.
@@Lodit24 if every big engineering project would be like this, things would be either never finished or waaaay too costly.
@@Lodit24 a part of a good design process is to set a clear goal, and more importantly limitations. Martin however is not a good designer in that aspect, because he keeps changing his design goal throughout the process and expects perfection from every part. This project will remain endless at this rate.
Redesigning the machine keeps the patreon money flowing. Finishing the machine makes the patreon money stop. Therefore the incentive is not to finish the machine.
@@Troglobitten good thing this is an art project and not an engineering project. It will cost what it costs and take what it takes. One thing is for certain it'll either never exist or be badass.
i think this idea is pretty great! its essentially what old automatic pianos use, just a large piece of premade sheet music for the machine,, my only concern with marble machine version would be weight, you'll need to make sure it small and light enough to be installed by 1 or 2 people. so keep in mind the weight of this new piece once it comes time for manufacturing
Please put some of review process on exactly what a "world tour" should look like. On a stage, only people in very front might get a decent view of the machine mechanics, and then only from one point of view. A better format for you is a convention hall where viewers can be much closer and move around it and come and go to other exhibits.
Agree, "world tour" sounds great, but is still somewhat vague. You might technically call it a word tour, even if you just tour some Central European countries. But "world tour" typically implies visiting several contents. Which immediately ramps up the logistical requirements and constraints for the machine by a lot. So being clearer on what the world tour IS and what type of venue they want to play in, will inform the form factor and design requirements a lot.
Martin:
Cool is cool but it's too complicated
Also Martin:
Oh well, it's so cool, we're doing it anyway!
Martin says he'll be happy with just 300 channels. What I hear is that he just pushed the schedule by 3 years. Hope I'm wrong lol
You are definitely wrong. It's gone back by 7 years.
It's been a decade since he made a song with a marble machine, and even that was highly edited.
Sorry, but you took that comment way out of context. Martin was saying that if he had a machine with, for example, 300 channels instead of, for example, 600 channels, and if he could delete delete delete but without totally sacrificing musicality, it'll still be good. Don't take it so literally. Did he actually say, "this machine will have either 300 channels or 600 channels", literally? I certainly did not get that impression anywhere.
@@justinnaramor6050 just because he picked such a ridiculously high number implies he's seriously thinking about it.
@@ArrakisMusicOfficial Um, no! picking big numbers does not automatically prove anything. It doesn't! What if he simply overexaggerate it with big numbers purely to make a point? I've done this myself before, as have other people.
If you build it they will come! You got this, Martin!!! A constant source of inspiration (: thank you
Emphasis on "if"
Wasn't that the idea already used for the MMX? Making multiple plates and changing them ? Hope that this will evolve in the good way :)
Yep, I think this is awesome! Thanks for answering my question!
man.
this machine isn't ever getting finished, is it?
No, we've been saying that for a long time.
I agree it's a cool idea, it shows to the audience how the machine works
Unfortunately, people need to realize this guy is milking everyone. He clearly has no intention of completing his machine. He is just stalling the design to keep the Patreon money rolling in. I suppose if you are happy with what he produces, who cares but worth knowing.
It's a hard truth.
Martin! I can not wait for the live gig mate!
Just do MIDI- the audience doesn't care.
If you think of it, the hygen drive is kinda similar to the special power bar in a video game (ie. Tecken or Skate) The drive module could be featured as a more prominent and towering feature and could be designed in such a way that there are ropes, pulleys and a ratcheting mechanism so that the audience can interact with the machine and provide power to the drive module.
it will never be finished -_-
I doubt that, even if Martin dies before he finishes it (which I really hope doesn't happen), there will for sure be people who would finish it for him
Yeah like most creative projects😂 i can totally relate, worming on a project the 3.year....thinking im finished.... But wait... Maybe i can... 😊😅
I say, higher probability than ever that it will be finished! However I am here for the road not the goal :)
Let the man cook. The journey can be just as important as the destination.
@@kitebabe05 I guess that's a thing all creative people have in common: "This little detail is perfect, everyone will notice, I gotta fix it and make everything perfect!" and "I could just add this! And this! And this seems really cool too!" xD
visually this is going to be a lot, might be worth thinking on how to manage audience visual focus. some handy tips to help: you can hide areas of detail by having it all the same color/tone, so they can fall back. Draw our focus on the areas you want by highlighting with some shiny/bright bits. ie The marble rails, belts, catchers etc, paint them all black, or wood. layer two would probably be the wheels and instrument mounts. So, you could splurge and have cool brass fittings/flashy bits. Lastly, the mechanics behind you, think of this as the frame of a painting (Painting is martin). So solid shiny brass everywhere, and martin in the center.
"When I'm on the world tour..." Marty, come back to reality. You have nothing to show for all the videos you've made since you abandoned MMX. The band appears to have vanished. You don't appear to be learning any lessons. There's nothing wrong with going back to making music instead of beating this dead horse.
He purposely ignores YT commentary but yeah, I wish he'd just go back to making smaller instruments like the modulin. We could have had an entire orchestra of amazing working musical gadgets but instead all we get are busted marble machines.
He has so much better frameworks to work off of this time around because of these design videos.
Stop being impatient
Martin should put ur comment in a frame. Because he will proove u wrong ;) the biggest artistic flex in history did not come from an easy way.
@@JulianGrayMedia there is no band though. there is no tour. he is still "oh 300 channels!". the frameworks are still on the same level as someone who started few months ago. you could argue that he has learned a lot but it all goes just out the window the next month. he somehow learned to not use the vfd motor because of reasons and now thinks he will output 200 watts nonstop himself for duration of a concert.
look the videos became and means to an end of their own and that's making a living. he already spent a lot (all) of money meant for the world tour prep, seemingly.
It's been 8 years.
new martin haricut just dropped? not joking, you look great with that haircut!
I’m glad the band is being considered as part of the plan again.
Good. The keeping the drum system as is was my biggest head scratcher.