Zach & Divina's Story Leaving First UPC | Episode 3
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 ต.ค. 2024
- Zachary and Divina Lucas join us on the podcast to open up about their deeply personal journey of leaving the First United Pentecostal Church (First UPC). In this candid conversation, they share the challenges they faced within the church, the difficult decision to step away from a belief system that once defined their lives, and the impact it had on their faith, relationships, and sense of identity. From navigating the emotional toll to dealing with backlash from the community, Zachary and Divina provide a raw and insightful look into what it means to leave a controlling religious environment and rebuild their lives on their own terms.
Hi UPCI Apostolic here!
I apologize that y’all went through that! There is a church in my area that just dismissed their previous Pastor who treaded it like a cult. Not all UPC churches are like this, not all Apostolic organizations are this way either. Cultish, and isolated, isn’t how it should ever be ran, and I’m sorry your experience was toxic and abusive that wasn’t real church and wasn’t who Jesus is, Jesus is real and loves you. God bless.
Thank you for your thoughtful and empathetic response. While there’s still much to discuss regarding the UPCI as an organization, I agree that not all churches within it are as harmful as the one we left. I'm always open to engaging with people in the UPCI and willing to be persuaded about your doctrines. I truly appreciate productive discussions, so thank you for watching and sharing your thoughts.
Amen brother, I'm also an UPCI Holy Ghost Filled Apostolic Pentecostal, and I believe that true Born Again Holy Ghost Filled Children of God wouldn't allow anything or anyone to make them leave the true church of God people leave the church cause they want to!! Like it says on romans 8, who shall separate us from the love of Christ? I've seen many people leave the church and go back into the world, but I believe that they didn't really love God or have two feet in church completely committed I've seen and gone through alot of battles in the church but I never left the church cause it just makes me stronger it's just like the parable about the seed falling on rocky ground
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8:35-39 KJV
The sower soweth the word. And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts. And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; and have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended. And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word, and the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
Mark 4:14-19 KJV
I love what Zach is saying and his passion to speak out about these issues. Bring him back on another Podcast and his wife.
What strikes me the most about hearing the stories of others is how they’re all so alike. Our stories are all unique but are so similar. We didn’t go to the same church, but we for sure had a similar experience.
This is so powerful because this happens so much in many churches and people truly struggle with understanding everything. It almost feels like you will be persecuted for even having a question. The church loves to condemn.
I know how this couple felt and went through. My husband and I were dragged through the mud during the process of leaving and after leaving. My husband and I were heavily involved for 10+ years. We were ministers. Sold out for the church. We were even bought into loyalty like this couple. Even when we had our doubts in the church we attended…we defended the toxic behavior and teachings. And when I had concerns I did not feel safe to express concerns with my own husband and that went the same for my husband. But once we both actually said something to each other - 1:11:01 1:11:01 it clicked. Thank you for sharing this couple’s story. It is really refreshing and encouraging to see other couples who experienced a similar situation…seeing them doing well gives me hope.
What Zach said from 12:47-13:21 is so true. "It was like getting dropped off at a bus station having no luggage."
Apostolic Pentecostal here but not UPCI. Tongues and interpretation is for the edifying and uplifting of the church. So if people were being brought down and condemned, then it wasn’t spiritual, but carnal.
After seeing some videos of people leaving the UPCI, it seems a lot of people had a problem with church hurt before deciding the doctrine was wrong. The core doctrine is still true. One God, repentance, water baptism in Jesus name, holyghost, etc… The problem isn’t the message, but rather the method in which the message is brought forth. God didn’t call the church to be a dictatorship. Preach truth and holiness with a loving boldness.
Of course not every UPCI church is like this. But I do fear some churches have turned men who dictate when God can move and who can be used by him. Many churches in 2024 wouldn’t let Jesus himself preach behind their pulpit and it’s a shame.
I think this is a well rounded opinion. I go to a UPC church, and some of the experiences I’ve heard are horrible. Doesn’t disprove the doctrine however.
Believe it or not, I struggled with the doctrine long before I experienced church hurt. In fact, I stayed longer, despite the abuse, because I wanted so badly to believe in the doctrine. However, I ultimately left because I couldn’t reconcile those doctrines, not because of the hurt alone. I’m not alone in this; many Christian groups also condemn the beliefs I once defended wholeheartedly.
I humbled myself to continue learning from theologians far more knowledgeable than I am. It’s unfortunate that many within the movement tend to dismiss anyone who leaves, labeling their reasons as petty disputes or minimizing the abuse they endured. This attitude is unempathetic and callous. Our stories are valid, even when it comes to "church hurt," and they shouldn’t be downplayed.
At the same time, it's unfair and dishonest to suggest that people leave simply because they didn’t study the doctrine. In most cases, especially when people remain within Christianity, they leave precisely because they’ve studied scripture deeply. If the UPCI wants to prevent members from leaving, it should focus inward and address abrasive behaviors like this, and approach those who are questioning the doctrine with empathy. Condemning those who leave as "biblically ignorant" is not only ineffective-it’s un-Christlike.
@BrandonE-ri4km Respectfully, I don’t believe this is a well-rounded perspective. It comes across as veiled finger-pointing, with an underlying assumption that those who leave the UPCI do so because they’re "biblically illiterate." The UPCI would benefit from focusing on removing bad actors within the movement-such as the pastor at this church, whom we all agree is out of line-and showing empathy towards those who question Pentecostal doctrines. Believe it or not, many of us would likely still be part of the movement if our concerns had been taken seriously and we hadn’t been mistreated so badly. Addressing these two issues would go a long way in helping the UPCI retain members, especially given the recent losses.
@@escaping350utopia Thanks for the reply. I apologize if you or anyone may have taken my comment as "pointing fingers" or calling someone "biblically illiterate", as this was by no way my intention. Through my study, it just appears that the doctrine that is taught is correct.
I’m aware that some people have genuine questions concerning the doctrine. I’m not sure what yours were, but if you have a video on that, please point me that way.
Finally, it is TOTALLY OKAY to ask questions about why we’re believing what is being taught. Whether that is about Jesus name baptism, tongues, or other topics. Any minister who downplays someone’s questions or just says “you have a spirit on you and need prayer” needs a real check. I mean there are things I don’t agree with that a lot of the churches teach. But there seems to be a reoccurring theme: ministers who are looking down their noses and are acting out of the will of God.
I appreciate that response. I can agree with you there and I've posed some questions of things I questioned in the doctrine in my first podcast episode, "What Should Speaking in Tongues Look Like?"
See here: th-cam.com/video/lnyyWdTjALo/w-d-xo.htmlsi=jQ1WN1mPTymLQulA
I'll never shut down discussion of scripture and am open to being persuaded, so if there's any critiques you have of anything I've expressed, please let me know and I look forward to healthy, productive dialogue!
The sad thing is they isolate you from your biological family, then say they are your REAL FAMILY because the blood of Jesus is thicker than the blood of your biological family. But let me tell you, when you leave this group, your real real family will usually take you back with open arms!!! They’ll be the ones to help you when you’re in a serious situation! The church family relationships are VERY CONDITIONAL
Visited this church 3 times and the praise for the “bishop” from anyone who stood behind the pulpit was what made me scratch my head and be like it’s a no for me. Sadly I have family still there and they have drank the kool aid. I wish they’d move to another church within upci.
Praise 👏 🙌 to Jesus christ 🙏 🙌
You guys literally told our story there. Sadly we were called into the office and even offered a church. We told them that was not our calling. Then James said my husband had back problems and my husband denied it in church and it all went down hill after that. Everything yall talked about happened to us. We prayed for a way out. And my husband got a job. We sent an email letting them know we were moving for my husband's job. And James called him a lier from the pulpit. We had already been "marked" and ostracized from everyone.
Wow, I didn't even know the whole story, but I know you are good people and what they were saying definitely didn't line up. I'm glad y'all found a way to get out of first church. I hope you all are doing well and have found a better church community!
@@escaping350utopiathere was many things that didn't line up. We have found a wonderful church, and are doing wonderful.
Much love yalls way.
Thank you, I'm so glad to hear that! Love you all as well!
Apostolic Pentecost here.
Church hurt is real. I’ve experienced it and seen it before me. YET scripture tells us to keep our eyes on Jesus, NOT MAN. Man will fail us, for sure! I kept myself in the presence of God to be able overcome and love people who mistreated and lied on me. Revenge belongs to the Lord! God will reveal people in time. HE gives them as much mercy as he did to us to turn from our ways.
I urge you to go find another oneness, born of water and spirit bible word based church.
Your gifts for the kingdom are still there, the Lord is NOT repented of giving gifts! BUT you can only take people as far as you’ve gone yourself! And your still “broken” with hurt.
Your stuck and hindered and by sharing this for the whole world to see, you’ve become a stumbling block to others.
Pick up your heads and on On forward!
Love y’all in Jesus name!
"Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true" (Acts 17:11). The Bible encourages us to study scripture for ourselves and evaluate whether what we are being taught aligns with the truth. I agree that church hurt is real, and Christians should keep their central focus on Jesus.
That being said, sharing our stories of abuse and toxic church environments is not wrong. In fact, the Bible calls us to expose bad actors in our midst. Paul did this to Peter in Galatians 2, providing a clear example of Christians holding others accountable for actions that don’t align with the gospel, especially when it leads others astray (Galatians 2:13).
We appreciate your concerns and the love you’ve expressed toward us. Rest assured, we are healing and we’ve found healthier church community where we can properly center our focus on Christ, something that wasn’t possible in our former church, where the pastor was elevated above God Himself.
I came across your account on TT and seeing the “tongues and interpretation” is what led me down the rabbit hole of everything you’ve posted and viewing some of their services. I have NEVER, ever heard of tongues given in that way or used to say what the pastor wants.
Also, their term corporate prayer is a joke. That’s not prayer - that’s people trying to keep the troops rallied about their leadership.
I’m an outsider from a completely different state and have been UPCI all my life. As I said above, I have never seen tongues operate in that way. It’s disturbing!!!!!
And, to call people out by name from the pulpit is appalling. I heard that again in this past Sunday service. 😮
It’s not about people, ( us ) it’s about your relationship with God and his word .
Thank you guys for sharing your story. I hope someone who is in that church who is feeling some of the same things you guys felt, hears this and makes a move out of that abuse.
People change, God does not change. His word does not change, his statutes, and Commandments do not change.
Enjoyed the listen…. I totally relate to how ya’ll were feeling. Though I kept a lot in while I was there. Glad y’all made it out ok.
Thanks for listening
Been there done that
It takes a long time to transition out of the upc
Wow!
What a strong couple!
New to this podcast so great!
Keep up the good work!
Thanks so much!
Jesus said that which is flesh is flesh that which is spirit is spirit , you all get to make that choice
You was going to say I thought Bible study’s , that would have keep you , praying for you
I am so sorry that everyone had to go through this sort of thing. I know it's real but it's not the United Pentecostal Church international. It's not the title of the church. It is just a title. It is that Pastor that takes authority and acts like he's God. So don't blame the United Pentecostal Church international. You can find great churches out there where you're treated right where you're not told that you can't breathe. I've been through it as a child. I got out of it when I was 18. I still go to a United Pentecostal Church. There are some I wouldn't walk across the street to but people let things go to their head in all denominations. So I'm sorry for what you have suffered, but it's not the name of the church that you're blasting is that person and too bad. God is still real. Truth is truth as far as Jesus Name baptism and infilling of the Holy Ghost!!
You said trust your hart , the prophet Jeremiah said The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings. We love you all , forgive people, Jesus said to love your enemies, and pray for them,
You get yourselves right with God, people will turn on you, Lucifer desires human failure, which matches his own failure.
There’s no other truth in the Bible , you can find a church that loves you all , don’t let this drive you from the truth.
Sorry, what you when through, but why didn’t you call the organization upper upper for an investigation?
We did, they did, and multiple, MULTIPLE others did. Turns out, the UPCI will not get involved. Try it, you'll see we're telling the truth, contact them and tell them about this church. You'll get the same answer we did, which is nothing or, "we can't do anything unfortunately."
They lean way to hard into the autonomy clause of the by laws. I’ve told them off about it before. They are wrong to not jerk his license.
Satan is always in church ⛪️ to kill still n destroy don't give up Jesus christ was betrayed too 💔 🙏 he asked the father to forgive them they know not what there doing forgiveness is being like Jesus christ go to another church keep on keeping on sister and brothers 😢😢Amen
My question is this did you leave the Faith or did you just leave this church and are now going to another of the same like faith
Speaking for myself (Andrew), we maintained our Christian faith after leaving. In fact, you could say it was strengthened through studying, which ultimately led us to leaving our former church.
👍🏾👍🏾👍🏾
Thank you for watching!
Jesus called that hypocritical
Be careful your talking about the Holy Ghost, I believe people can miss use the Gifts , there is no confusion in Jesus Christ, the Bible teaches us to do things in order, and yes, we can Discern when things are not done in order don’t let it drive you from the truth
Your talking to the masses now? I’m sorry you where hurt, if he was teaching out of the Bible, that’s why we don’t put our trust in men we put our trust in God
What church is this?
Zach mentioned it at the beginning of the video. First United Pentecostal Church of SA
Every church has bad actors , woe unto those who get offended , Jesus said woe into those who offend,
What do you all expect to accomplish by bashing the UPC. Some of you are just like those left their first Love, the Saints in Ephesus. You are just fulfilling the word of God. Is has been like that from Jesus days on earth. Why poising people's mind and causing division. You are all doing a disservice to the kingdom of God. As scripture said they went out from us.
I believe this is a mischaracterization. You may be referencing details from my earlier videos where Zach and Divina were not featured. However, in the video you're commenting on, we specifically discussed our personal experience with the cult we escaped, which happens to be a UPC church. Although we didn’t explicitly mention that, I’m assuming you didn’t watch the video.
In any case, our goal is to raise awareness about the legitimate abuse we endured under our former pastor. Calling out spiritual abuse and the distortion of scripture is not "bashing." If you believe our views are incorrect, and that this could somehow persuade people in your movement, it suggests you have a very low view of scripture. Instead of attacking people’s character online, I would be more concerned with ensuring your members are well-versed in biblical knowledge so they can present counterarguments.
Zach and Divina are incredible, knowledgeable people whom I respect deeply. I encourage you to actually watch the video before impulsively posting emotional comments, as that doesn’t help your cause-it only harms it.
Shut your mouth. These people have been spiritually abused and need the love of the true body of Christ. Not the delusions of narcissistic preachers like Jackson
That was directed at the naysayer above
Does he ever let her talk?? 😮
If you can't do any good in this world don't do any evil.
"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" (Isaiah 5:20 KJV). We believe that this episode more exemplifies Ephesians 5:11-12 than does your comment, "Do not participate in the worthless and unproductive deeds of darkness, but instead expose them [by exemplifying personal integrity, moral courage, and godly character]; 12 for it is disgraceful even to mention the things that such people practice in secret." (Ephesians 5:11-12 ASV).
We are merely highlighting the objectively harmful actions that took place in our former church/cult. If that wasn’t your experience, then this video isn’t directed at you. However, I encourage you to approach these stories with empathy, try to understand their perspectives, and reflect on whether there are changes within your movement that could make a positive difference rather than push people away from your churches.