@@KaiDecadence If it’s okay with you later when I am done shopping and doing housework could I explain some of my life and what happened to me and stuff I started to pick up and like when I was growing up and maybe help me find what I would be labeled under please
@@DamienSousa I can't make promises with the schedule I have. Instead, I highly suggest checking out this video I made after I made this one, you might get your answer there. th-cam.com/video/lk_QKoWWh2E/w-d-xo.html
I agree with you, goths are people who listen to goth music period. Goth festivals are based on Goth music and not literature or movies or some dark romantic philosophy. I hate how the mainstream throws the word 'goth' at anyone that wears black lipstick. I'm a rocker and metalhead and I would totally hate it if someone who only listens to bands like mcr and twenty one pilots claims that they are metalhead. I don't understand why people who claim to like Gothic style and fashion and literature and macabre stuff (the ones who you call Darkly inclined in this video) wouldn't enjoy actual Goth music as the music's dark atmosphere caters to their love for darker side of life. I always thought if you liked the Gothic arts you would naturally enjoy the music as well. I feel that lots of these people just don't give the music a chance and label themselves in a subculture they don't actually belong to. You explain things really well. I'm glad that you and Angela made videos on this topic.
Thanks dear and you're right on the money. That's why I always use the metalhead analogy to help get my point across as there are more people into Metal than Goth in terms of music. And yeah I also agree that I can't fathom or understand why a Gothic inclined person wouldn't like at least some Goth music because the sound is dark and so inviting and it doesn't even have to be the 80s stuff (which I explained in the video pretty thoroughly I think). But I have noticed a certain... Mindset a lot of these people have, the ones who claim to be Goth even though they don't like Goth music. Other than them mixing up Goth & Gothic / Darkly Inclined, a lot of these people tend to be Metalheads and they probably initially believed that Goth music was stuff like Death Metal, Black Metal, or Symphonic Metal and when they actually hear what real Goth music sounds like, it totally catches them off guard and sounds nothing like they expected. And because the music isn't hard enough for them (well compared to Metal), they reject the music but still want to keep the Goth moniker because they feel their likeness for the aesthetic or the other Gothic inclined stuff should be more than enough; not understanding that Goth was always a music-based subculture just like their metal music they love so much. And I'm sure if that some pop punk kid tried to claim he was a metalhead because he liked the name and "Street cred" of it but he listens to MCR, 21 Pilots, and Fall Out Boy. It obviously wouldn't sit well with them and Goth is no different. Bur anyway, I think i waffled on long enough haha. Thanks for the comment and I'm glad you enjoyed the video!
I think it's true that people who are naturally drawn to a dark aesthetic are also drawn to dark music. The question is whether that music is Goth or not. I love dark neoclassical music, and I really don't like rock, punk, or synth music. So, I like dark music a lot, but is it Goth? Maybe?
Nyx Shadowhawk nope it’s not goth music is consistent of dark wave post punk and other things He made a good video on I would check it out to see more details 😉
For me, it's not about "not liking Goth rock music" as much as it is an emphasis on music not being the most important thing. For me, being Gothic is a way of being and living, a way of perceiving things, an aesthetic sensibility, and an identity. So what if one doesn't like Goth rock? Even if Goth rock was the gateway for a lot of folks to realize this about themselves and find each other, so what? There are other aspects, too, which are just as valid, such as self-expression through appearance and art, films, and literature, and there is other music as well that invokes "the Gothic." Being Gothic is much more fluid, and thus more personal and meaningful to us than simply a music scene. Even if we happened to make it that way. Perhaps there are many who were even from the scene, originally, and then became like an offshoot. Clearly there is a division between those who believe "Goth is a music-based subculture" and those who believe "Gothic is a self-identity label." Just call yourselves Goth rockers if you want to avoid confusion. Gothics have our identity and we’re not going anywhere, and neither are you, apparently. For myself in particular, it's an identity based on embracing Otherness and self-empowerment through self-expression, and shedding light on things most often misunderstood. Otherness, as is represented and reflected through "the Gothic," is at the very heart of being Gothic. I don't associate my identity with any media that I consume, to such an extent as to identify with a fandom or subculture. I associate my identity with my self-expression though (and my self-expression with my identity), because I created it and it comes from intangible abstractions that make me "me." I have my own style, which is extremely flamboyant and meaningful to me. It is my art, which reflects an important part of who I am. It is sacred to me. So don't be telling Gothics how we should identify. You're interfering with something beautiful and sacred. There's more to it than being "Darkly-inclined," even. Yes, educate others about the music scene. There's nothing wrong with having a music scene. But there is another type known as Gothic, and while often relating and having an overlap, it is different to be Gothic than to be a fan of Goth rock and a member of a music scene. Thank you.
@@bumpytoad4464 There is another video where Kai explains the difference between a Goth, which is a Goth music fan, and Gothics. He is not putting down Gothics.
This is such a great video. I love how you touched on the actual definition of elitists. It gets thrown around so often that people have forgotten the real meaning of the word. I'm so thankful for people like you and Angela Benedict for putting this stuff out there. I feel with educational videos like this being created, it will only be beneficial and it's proof the scene is always going to stay strong despite the ongoing misconceptions.
Haha thanks and that is definitely what I'm hoping people will see when they watch videos like what we've done when it comes to the subculture. And no problem, it was a great quote!
Know video is "old" now, but this discussion still is going on. Myself old enough being young during the 80s must confess my weak spot for gothic rock and postpunk. But I love other types too. I know many was confused when suddenly cybergoth came into the scene and the discussion back then were if that was ok or not. Ended up most of us accepted that and we could even add more things for the look "over the borders of genre". I do love many newer bands too. Plus I do like some industrial types too. Even goth metal was accepted in many clubs. But I live in Sweden, so mybe not the same everywhere. I have been told by youngsters (I've just turned 52) that I can't be true goth cause I don't always listen to all of their bands plus I can listen and enjoy other types of music. Plus because I don't look extreme enough. I had my extremer days til around my early 40s, now more comfy goth. With exception if I dress up for something special. I still love put it all on. Think my experience comes from the 80s. Where I lived the "goth label" didn't exist yet, but we had the music. And mostly all kids hanged together that wasn't mainstream ones. That mean "goths without knowing the label", punkheads and metalheads often hanged a long plus sometimes the ones more extreme into synth music. For me a true goth listen to goth. But can listen to other things too. It's not the clothes that makes you goth, but it can add more to you as in expression. If it's only a look and not music at all, it's just a "trendy thing" fashion wise. Latest people try connect e girl label to goth. But I think I understood that's just a look and nothing to do with music. Thanks for a fun video 🖤🖤🖤🖤
Great video! Of course I agree with you, but I also like how you showed examples of goth genres. And thanks for correcting me even though you're not aware that you did. I put "gothic metal" into the goth music umbrella, but you're right - it's actually a genre of heavy metal. Lol. Looks like I have some studying to do with the genres of goth. I love your cartoon representation of yourself. :)
Thanks! Yeah, I wanted to try to be as thorough as I could so I can help newcomers have an easier time finding some Goth music/bands to enjoy as while the 80s trad bands are important, I think that it can be a bit hard to take for younger people so it's best to try to ease them in if you know what I mean lol On Gothic Metal, I did forget to mention that while the genre as a whole nowadays is just nothing more than another sub-style of Metal music, there have been a few, extra emphasis on "Few" bands that actually mixed Gothic Rock & Metal together but like I said, they were few and far between and that's probably why the genre just became nothing but Metal because unlike the few bands that fused Gothic rock with it, most of them don't and only focus on looking dark lol But yeah, thanks for your comment, I'm glad you enjoyed!
Hmm... I listen to a ton of Gothic Metal bands, that take inspiration from Goth rock. My Dying Bride, Type O Negative, (latter) Love Like Blood, Paradise Lost, Tiamat, Katatonia, Lacrimosa, to name a few. Sucks to exclude this genre, just for being metal. I love 80s post punk, gothic rock, darkwave, death rock etc.
Not only do I agree with you completely, but I applaud how you've created such a practical guide for people who don't know what bands they might enjoy. :)
Thanks a bunch, that was my intention! I wanted to try to show people that there are a few other goth genres worth trying if you don't like 80s Post Punk and I think I'll go further into these genres in another video. :) Thanks again for watching!
If you're curious to try listening to Goth music, I have created some playlists that are categorized by their sound from Gothic Rock to Darkwave so feel free to give them a look! I also recommend checking out Angela Benedict's playlists as she has created some specified Goth music playlists as well! I'm sure that you'll find a few songs you'll like, I guarantee it!
Hey there guys, thanks a lot for watching the video! Like I said in the video, this is just merely my own opinion on this subject matter. Special thanks to Angela Benedict as it was her video that gave me the inspiration to make a video on this topic and if you haven't watched it, I highly recommend it and I'll leave a link down below. And another shout out to Accumortis, Rose Nocturnalia, Eternal Wytch, and Gothic SoulFlower! ☥ Angela's Video: th-cam.com/video/94sXHC_4z_U/w-d-xo.html ☥ Accumortis' Video: th-cam.com/video/ZCn-lBVCX-U/w-d-xo.html ☥ Rose Nocturnalia's Video: th-cam.com/video/oPhT527NL0s/w-d-xo.html ☥ Gothic SoulFlower's Video: th-cam.com/video/viuP_XHtfCI/w-d-xo.html And to Snowy Lowther, please understand that I in no way hate or dislike you, I think you're a sweet person, this is just merely my own opinion on the subject matter. :)
What you said at 3:00 about suggesting bands, see, that's the right approach to have with people who don't know much about the goth subculture, music and other stuff related to it :). At least in my opinion it is. I do the same but I am a bit intense, so it might scare off people. I'm the type of person to send people 20 songs back to back :P. I would be all in favor of having an elite if this elite was more open and respectful. Not elitist jerks. But with power comes responsibilities, and sometimes an oversized ego, sadly. But when it comes to goth, I tend to be rather inclusive. Can't believe it took me that long to watch this video, as I've watched most other goth youtubers videos on the subject.
That's what I made the video for, to help newcomers trying to find some music :D And after talking more about "elitism" with some other people after I made this video, I can see why elitism can actually be a good thing because in Goth's case, it helps keep the subculture on track and prevents it from getting bastardized and considering how people like me, Angela Benedict, and other youtubers who talk about Goth music being called "elitists" simple for being honest then I guess I'm just going to have to roll with it lol Glad you enjoyed the video nonetheless! I plan on expanding this topic in an upcoming video. :)
4:31 Thank you for saying this! As a rivethead I absolutely hate it when people say Industrial is goth music or when they use the term ‘Industrial goth’ or say rivethead is a style of goth (like romantic, trad, etc) Like no, does this th-cam.com/video/pjGDnX4VZBA/w-d-xo.html sound like goth music? No it fucking doesn’t. I also want to correct some things about your industrial genres list if you don’t mind. I’m pretty sure ‘industrial dance’ isn’t a genre. I know it’s often used to describe the aggrotech/powernoise fusion a lot of cybergoths dance too (Eisenfunk, Noisuf-X, etc) , but I’m pretty sure it’more of a description of the more danceable genres than a genre in itself, somebody correct me if I’m wrong though. Post Industrial is a description for everything that isn’t Industrial™ (original 70’s industrial) and not it’s own genre. Witchhouse and Neurofunk aren’t (post)industrial You also missed some genres: Aggrotech, Powerelectronics, Power Noise/Noize/Rhythmic Noise, Technoid/Industrial IDM, Death Industrial, Harsh noise/Japanoise (according to some people), Tribal industrial and Martial industrial. Not hating, just educating btw.
Little story about myself: I've always been a darkly inclined folk. I guess it comes from my love for the work of Tim Burton, which began with Nightmare. I also loved going on Haunted Mansion Holiday during Christmastime; I used to live in SoCal and my parents were annual passholders for Disneyland, so we went there every weekend. The first Goth song I ever listened to was the Damned's History of the World (Weirdly enough produced by Hans Zimmer.). I didn't know Goth was even a thing when I first listened to the song (I was only 10 or something.)... and I still didn't! It'd take until 2016 until I started getting into the music, when my Sis introduced me to Joy Division with their song Disorder. I loved it so much that I wanted to explore Goth music (I also wanted to explore the subculture as a whole because I loved Kenneth Anderson’s character Marilyn Shine so much that I wanted to know what Goth was.) and... well, I never turned back. I've also been an 80's nut since I was 13 or so, so I've found myself gravitating towards 80's and that the Cure would be my favorite Goth band. Funny enough, they also happen to be Tim Burton's favorite band. As for music after the 80's, I also really enjoy it. I'm really starting to Drab Majesty, and the Birthday Massacre and Faith and the Muse are also cool. In short, I've been a Tim Burton fan since youth, but a Goth since 2016. Although I listen to and enjoy the music, from the Mission to Miranda Sex Garden, Clan of Xymox to Cocteau Twins, Fields of the Nephilim to Faith and the Muse, etc., I'm always willing to find even more bands than I already know of and am still exploring. Thankfully, I love the music so much that it's not gonna stop. What I really want to say is that I agree with everything you have said in this video. Even though I like things that are darkly or Gothically inclined, I still maintain that Goth is a music subculture, and that as I absolutely love the music, I myself am a Goth. I get that some people who like darkly inclined or Gothically inclined things wouldn't like the music under the Goth umbrella, and I think that's alright. Like you said, I wouldn't call them Goth. So yeah. If you like Goth music, you're a Goth. Thanks again for making this video. You were honest, respectful and really got the point across. Keep up the awesomeness! -S. P.S. Outside of Goth music, I love anything and everything Jim Steinman, even moreso since he did some songs with the Sisters of Mercy and planned to do a Batman musical with Tim Burton at one point. I also love Phil Collins, Danny Elfman/Oingo Boingo and Hans Zimmer (Especially when he works with Lebo M.), mainly due to classic Disney. Again, I'm an 80's nut, but I also love film scores. And Disney. And cinema in general. XD
A very well put explanation. As someone who enjoys the newer goth bands like she past away, ash code, twin tribes I totally think that one can be a goth while not really enjoying the 80s bands but at least knowing about them. There's something for everyone in the goth subculture. You just have to explore the music.
Right exactly. There have been a large amount of Goth bands that have came out since the 1980s so there's bound to be a couple that some will enjoy more than others.
It's all Underground Music and to stay fresh and alive it's always good to take new sounds and ideas to move on. I don't care if it gives me a good feeling. Especially in this bad times.
I mostly agree with what you have said in your video, as I do with all the other goth TH-camrs who have made similar points. However, I'm not sure I follow the argument that industrial and the other 'dark' electronic genres are not part of goth. I have been under the impression that goth music has TWO major lines of evolution: 1. Guitar driven music that originated in post punk like Public Image Ldt. and Joy Division; 2. Electronic music that originated in early synthpop like Kraftwerk and industrial music like Throbbing Gristle. The reason I don't consider these two completely seperate genres is that there are numerous bands that are clearly influenced by both these areas of music. The synthesizers that disntinguish post punk from traditional punk rock were developed through experimentation by electronic artists. Darkwave and coldwave are often purely electronic and some bands like Psyche alternate between harsher EBM sounds and more mellow darkwave. The Frozen Autumn, a great darkwave band that is clearly part of the goh scene, have a synthpop side project (Static Movement) that sounds extremely similar to the main band, just without guitars. EBM bands usually have an aggressive look with military boots and partially shaven heads that's very reminiscent of punk. The cool analog synth sound of early coldwave bands often reminds one of '20 Jazz Funk Greats', one of the best known albums by industrial pioneers Throbbing Gristle. I could go on, but I find it clear that it's very difficult to really seperate goth and electronic music and the criterion that true goth music *has* to be derived from punk rock seems way too narrow to me. I think that's the reason that goth rock and various types of darker electronic music are often played at the same clubs and bands of both genres are usually invited to the big goth festivals. Anyway, that's just my 2 cents and overall you made a lot of good points that I wholeheartedly agree with! Just thought I'd point out where our opinions differ...
Well I don't want to overload you too much on why I have the opinion of Industrial but if open, a TH-camr by the name Amy Nekrotique goes in depth with the roots of Industrial and how it was mainly influenced from Electronic and even Disco music. I highly recommend checking her videos out as she's an avid fan of the music and has so much knowledge on it.
Thanks, will do. BTW, I'm not arguing that goth rock and industrial share the same roots, just that the paths both took intermingle so much that in today's scene it's not sensible to draw a clear distinction between them. But I'll see what this Amy Nekrotique person has to say, maybe I can learn something from her...
Tophat Eyeball Amy is awesome! Hands down the most informative on the topic👍I got into goth first, and then discovered industrial in the clubs. I agree about the intermingling in the scene, but I think it's the way the music is made and the instruments used.... that's where you see the difference.
I personally don’t get why so many people are obsessed by using the goth label. I’m mean, you don’t have to listen to goth music in order to wear clothing that is associated with the goth subculture, so why do people make such a big deal out of calling themselfs goth if they're not? I wear a lot of ‘goth’ clothing, but that doesn’t make me goth. I wear some cyber inspired clothing, that doesn’t make me cybergoth. I wear some ‘rivethead’ clothing, I am a rivethead but not because of those clothes. Nice video btw! I think you did a great job explaining this issue.
I still believe goth as a subculture has evolved into something that can be fully enjoyed through aesthetics, but I've never met anyone that doesn't like the music and genuinely don't know how I feel about this. Thanks for the music recs!
Thank you for this! I am new to Gothic rock and the other genres within goth music. Being new to this, I've seen some conflicting ideas about what is goth music and what isn't. I feel confident that you know a lot about the music, so I get my sources from you!
Thanks and I'm glad you enjoyed the video. If you're up for it, I highly recommend watching a sort of sequel video I made to this where I go more in depth about Goth music with what goes into the key characteristics of the sound and how to tell the difference between a Goth genre and a non Goth genre that gets mistaken as such. It's a little long so I just having something to eat while watching but I try to make things as thorough but not overwhelming as possible haha. > th-cam.com/video/4GsskYEDgrE/w-d-xo.html
You are saying this as your opinion but, to be honest, this is NOT simply your opinion. It is a stone cold fact. To be a Goth means to like Goth music. If you don't like it, you cannot be Goth. This is so controversial in this subculture but it isn't in any other. For example, if someone was walking around claiming to a Swiftie bc they liked to dress and do their makeup like TS, but didn't know anything about her music, NO ONE would waste a single second to speak up and be like "Actually to be Swiftie means means to be a fan of Taylor Swift's music." It is the same with Goth. This is not opinion, it is simply truth and we shouldn't have to feel timid about presenting it. It's ok to tell the truth. You don't have to start and end this by saying that this is your opinion on the subject. I don't mean this to sound bad or rude, just honest as someone who really struggled to find an answer to this question for so long myself...this video while it was meant to answer the question is another one of those videos that wasn't straightforward enough for people who are really confused bc you kept reverting to "this is my opinion." I took me 4 years to figure out what it actually meant to be Goth bc people who were answering the question were doing this exact thing-saying yeah this is how it is, BUT this is just my opinion guys. So in the end I still felt lost like, well what is it then? Is this fact or is it not? 😭😭😭 We need to answer this question with full confidence for the sake of those searching for the truth about it. Goth is a subject with an actual history and definition. I think the more open and confidently honest we are about this the more the contention around this subject will fade away and the idea of us being elitists will fade bc in the end what I think makes a lot of this seem so elitist to other "Goths" is that many of us are pushing our "opinion" about this as if it's right and saying they're opinion is wrong. In many cases that is really disrespectful since everyone is entitled to their own opinion. So I think this approach offends people like "Ok so why is your opinion better than mine?" But if we present it confidently as historical fact, people can't blame us for that because it's not about us, it just is what it is. That part of the video aside, I do think you presented everything else very well.
This is the most descriptive and wonderfully made video on this topic I have seen! It's a shame that I can't give you a million likes lol 🖤 Also, thank you for clarifying on the "Gothic Metal" being a subgenre of metal and "Industrial" having subgenres and being accepted into the goth subculture because I have seen a lot of people being confused about this. Freaking amazing video!
I'm glad you enjoyed but to give a little correction, it's not that I'm saying Industrial is Goth because it isn't. What I'm saying is that Industrial is really it's own genre full of many different sub-genres just like Goth. I should've expanded more in the video but if people heard what early Industrial sounded like, they'd see how different it sounded and why it really was it's own niche. A good TH-camr I highly recommend checking out for more Industrial info is Amy Nekrotique. Her "Industrial Music 101" videos are super informative and I recommend them to anyone who wants to learn about Industrial music. But again, glad you enjoyed the video! I have more on the way :)
Kai Decadence Thank you! I will definitely be checking out her channel as well :D Also, I might have worded my words wrong lol. I meant to say that Industrial is indeed it's own genre, but it has kinda been like sisters with goth in the 90s, if that makes sense. Like Industrial has been loved by goths as well as Goth being loved by rivetheads. I could be wrong, as I'm still a very young fetus lol
Oh okay well yeah, that's pretty fair as both genres were loved between the two. I'm just trying to remind people that say, if you're more into Industrial and not into Goth, the proper term would be "Rivethead" or "Industrialist" (they're pretty interchangeable) and vice versa with those primarily into Goth being "Goth". If that makes sense lol
I highly recommend Cocteau Twins. I feel in love with the dreamy, calm sound right away and The Pink Opaque gave me similar feels as Disintegration by The Cure which I never thought would be possible because Disintegration is my favourite album. For people who like post punk sound like Joy Division, I recommend The Sound, beautiful but very underated band. I don't really like 45 Grave, it's not my thing and I'm not big into deathrock (unless it's early Christian Death ofc ).
I'm already very aware of Cocteau Twins, I really like most of their work but it should be known that not all of their music was/is Goth. In actuality, Cocteau Twins only made 2 Goth albums and those were 1983's "Head Over Heels" and 1984's "Treasure" (though not all the songs on this album are Goth as some were Dream Pop). "The Pink Opaque" is their compilation / Greatest hits album and it comprised of their popular songs from their first 3 albums so you're hearing Post Punk, Goth, and Ethereal Wave (Sub-genre of Goth). I checked out The Sound and they sound nice. Good solid Post-Punk, liked the song "Sense of Purpose". I'll check more of their stuff out. As for Deathrock, I personally like 45 Grave but that's just me lol If you're looking to try some more Deathrock, check out these songs. ~ Blood Dead & Sexy - "Sick Six Minutes" ~ Fangs on Fur - "Snake" ~ The Wraith - "Wing of Night" ~ Voodoo Church - "Zombie A Go-Go"
@@KaiDecadence idk, Garlands also sounds pretty goth to me (more post punk influenced), Treasure is more dream pop (I still love it tho). I know Fangs On Fur and it's not really my thing but I'll check out other bands when I find some spare time.. anyway, thanks for the recommendations.
@@SWilde-ws9qg Hm I hadn't actually listened to Garlands in awhile so I listened to a few songs from it and yeah, that's fair. Some of the songs on there do sound more Goth rock like "But I'm Not", "Blood Bitch", "Shallow Then Halo", and "Grail Overfloweth". So yeah, fair point, it wasn't just a straight up Post-Punk album. As for "Treasure", yeah it's not a full on Goth album as it had some Dream Pop songs which played a factor considering that their follow up album Victorialand removed the Goth sound and stayed in the Dream Pop genre of music.
With gothic metal, I think it really depends on what bands you’re talking about. Bands like moonspell, type o negative, crematory, 69 eyes and theatre of tragedy are definitely inspired by goth music. Yes, they are metal bands first and foremost, but saying that these bands have nothing to do with goth music whatsoever is just not true. Moonspell and type o for example are heavily inspired by the sisters of mercy and fields of the nephilim, while crematory basically sounds like a metal version of bands like diary of dreams and London after midnight. Then there’s bands like cradle of filth and septic flesh. They’re often labelled as gothic metal because they write dark, heavy, theatrical music with lyrics that are heavily inspired by gothic literature, but have little to no ties to goth rock. And then there are the bands people THINK are gothic metal bands. Nightwish, epica, xandria, … basically every female fronted Symphonic metal band. They have little to nothing to do with goth music. Nightwish incorporated some gothic elements on their album “once”, but if you’re going to label them as gothic metal because of this, you might as well call them folk metal, because they use way more folk elements into their music. But I do agree on the point that gothic metal is a subgenre of metal. It was created by bands who started to incorporate the dark and brooding atmosphere of goth music into their sound, just like thrash metal was created when bands started to combine the more complex song structures and melodies of heavy metal with the harsher, more straight forward approach of punk and hardcore.
Exactly. This is what I've been trying to tell these "Gothic" n darkly inclined ppl tht claims to be goth. Imagine them coming into a goth club n can't enjoy the music as the only thing they share in commonwith the goth is the fashion, not the music. They will totally misfit with the actual goths.
This video is a bit old and I've come across even more misconceptions. The main thing is that these non-goths wouldn't "Gothic" neither because Gothic is just a form of literature, architect, and film, I learned that the term for people who enjoyed the Gothic medium were called "Dark Romantics". So just because someone likes dark things doesn't mean they are Gothic-inclined aka "Dark Romantics" because they'd have to enjoy Gothic Literature and/or Gothic Film. But yes the point is that Darkly-Inclined people aren't Goths because they don't like the music and if they were to go to a Goth club, they most likely wouldn't enjoy the music being played there. In fact it's people like these who started driving Goth music out of the Goth clubs during the late 90s to the early 00s when the whole Rave scene blew up and ravers started invading Goth clubs and complaining about the Goth music being played and wanted more electronic music to be played there.
@@KaiDecadence can I ask ur thoughts about the Victorian goth? I have a friend who is a Victorian goth as she claims to be. But she doesn't really listen to goth music like darkwave, postpunk etc. In fact she listens to Gothic hymn like medieval style or Victorian orchestra/piano. Is this considered a goth? she sounds gothic-inclined person to me but still they look great in those style
@@Haemogobleen Victorian Goth is another style that has been misappropriated. If you want to hear the blunt honest truth, "Victorian Goth" is not a real thing, at least in the sense that it didn't come from Goth music. There hasnt't been any Goth band that dressed in a Victorian manner and what usually happened was people confusing Romantic Goth for Victorian when they don't know what Victorian actually is (because it's more than just corsets). So no, "Victorian Goth" in all honesty is not a real thing and what you see when people do dress in Victorian fashion is just that, Victorian fashion and like your friend, these people don't tend to like or listen to Goth music and prefer classical-oriented music which makes sense because again, it's not a Goth thing, it's just a vintage thing. They like Victorian fashion but prefer it in darker colors. So is your friend Goth? Going off what you've explained here, no she isn't. If she liked and listened to Goth music she would be but since she doesn't, she's not a Goth. Now as far as "Gothic-Inclined" goes, that really depends. Does your friend like Gothic Literature? And I mean more than Dracula because Gothic Literature is more than just that. If your friend does like Gothic Literature than she would be a "Dark Romantic"
@@KaiDecadence what u mentioned is a very nice interpretation of the Victorian goths (we kinda have the same thinking about them lol). N about my friend, yea she loves cathedral, churches, statues , medieval n Victorian history books like most Victorian goths do. She is indeed a historical-type of person
@@Haemogobleen Then yeah, assuming she's reading Gothic Literature like Turn of the Screw, Jane Eyre, Carmilla, and The Mystery of Udolpho to name a few, then she would be a text book definition of a Dark Romantic. But "Victorian Goth" is misnomer. It doesn't exist and it only came about from A), people mistaking Romantic Goth as Victorian and B), people wrongly saying that the Victorian era was a "Goth" time when it wasn't. So yeah, if you ever watch one of my future videos and I never bring up "Victorian Goth", that's because it doesn't exist. It's not an actual Goth thing, it's just Dark Victorian. Victorian clothing in black.
May I ask you, what's your opinion on Cybergoth? I'm pretty sure most if not all of them consider themselfs goth, it even has goth in the name. But they don't listen to goth music (they mostly listen to trance (rave) and new/danceable post industrial music). And if you look at the history, Cybergoth is a fusion of the Raver, Rivethead and cyberpunk subcultures and has nothing to do with goth appart from some fashion ellements. If there are cybergoths reading this, please explain cause I'd love to learn more!
CyberGoth was never Goth. The honest truth about "CyberGoth" is that they were just a bunch of Ravers who started invading Goth clubs in the mid-late 90s and early 2000s and drove out the real Goths when the clubs started catering to them by playing Industrial Dance music. Industrial music was the new trendy thing in the 90s and the mainstream media was ignorantly labeling it as Goth because to the media, Black clothes/dark makeup = Goth. The fact of the matter though is that a lot of these Goth clubs simply stopped being Goth when they got overrun by the Ravers and the music sets changed from Goth Rock, Darkwave, and Deathrock to Electro-Industrial, EBM, and later added Futurepop and Aggrotech. But these Ravers thought that the fact that they were in a "Goth" club, that made them Goth and thus "CyberGoth" became a thing but the honest truth was that CyberGoth was never Goth to begin with, it was actually an Industrial thing, specifically Industrial dance music. The music associated with CyberGoth was Electro-Industrial, Futurepop, Aggrotech, and Dark Electro, all sub-genres of Industrial music, not Goth. So yeah long story short, CyberGoth is not Goth, it's actually a misappropriated term that stuck around for so long because of ignorance and misinformation about what Goth really was during the 2000s.
i LOVE Nosferatu and i love love love this other band called Two Witches, their album Vampire's Kiss is my favorite. i love Darkwave, Death rock, Goth-a-Billy, all kinds of goth music, all kinds of Metal music, and all kinds of industrial music.
Nosferatu are pretty great and I just got into Two Witches as well, have a few songs on my playlist. And yes, music si great but all I say is don't mix up Industrial and Metal with Goth because they aren't the same and really never were haha.
Thanks for the listing of 90s goth bands. This expands my goth library. My 80sgoth listing was getting lonely 😂 Thanks for making this vids. Learning more from your vids. 🖤🖤🖤
You're very welcome :) I've also made some music playlists and have made a ton of different Goth themed ones from time 80s, 90s, 00s, and present time to the 5 different subgenres of Goth and so on so feel free to check those out if you're looking to add more music to your library :)
the Goth subculture comes down to the music, but a lot of people disagree on what may constitute as Goth music. I guess it'll be that way forever, unfortunately.
Yeah you may be right that even mentioning the music will always be thought of as controversial when it's not but I'll continue to stand firm on my beliefs.
I also wish people would get that it's okay to not fit the label of Goth. I never got why people so desperately ached to be called Goth. Nothing wrong with just being darkly inclined :/
I do agree that there is a vast amount of goth music styles. I am an aged goth and whilst I love the Sisters etc I adore bands such as Suspiria, Paralysed Age, LAM whom I discovered through TH-cam and thanks to guys like you! x
Great video! I love how you kept things positive and focused on recommending bands; way more helpful than just listing off bands that aren't goth. I'll be linking this vid for my friends getting into the subculture! (Also, your cartoon self is so cute. Do you do the art yourself?)
Okay? Where did I say that you can't listen to other kinds of music? I never said you have to only listen to Goth music to be a Goth. I said that in order to be a Goth, you have to at least like Goth music in ADDITION with the other music you like. You can go from David Bowie to Sisters of Mercy to Britney Spears to She Past Away and you would still be Goth because you like Goth music in addition to other non-Goth music.
I love the goth music of the 1980s! it's my favorite kind of goth music and I will always love those bands! I do like goth bands of today as well. like placebo and artist like Imax. but I will always be about those 1980s bands.❤💟🌛
Can't go wrong the 80s even though I steer more towards the 90s stuff like Suspiria, Miranda Sex Garden, and Love Like Blood. Though to point out something, Placebo isn't a Goth band, they're Alternative Rock (just darker like a band like Smashing Pumpkins or Interpol). Same with Imax, just another Alternative band (loved Chris' work with the Sneaker Pimps
Like the video and I love all the generations of goths music from Christian death 80’s And after the 80’s which is garden of delight think they are after the 80’ s , gothic sex , Lycia , switch blaze symphony I started in the 2000 adapting to goth music and other gene that falls under the umbrella to goth like death rock. Before goth music I am originally listened to metal and still do. But claim myself as a goth because I love, listen and if there a band playing in the area I support the scene.
I'm assuming you're talking about my "What is Goth music?" video right? Well to answer, it's because Neoclassical Darkwave is a fake genre. It's actually not a thing at all and most bands labeled that are just Neoclassical or Dark Ambient bands and those subgenres of music are not Goth music. As for "gothabilly", I came to learn that it really isn't a thing and that it's mostly psychobilly music that got wrongly called "gothabilly". "Gothabilly" isn't a music genre and it's another fake genre. I learned about this all much after I made this video.
So, I decided to share this video with someone, but I got called a gatekeeper for it. Some people are so thick and so stubborn that no mater how you explain it, they'll continue with their blinkers on as if we are scum elitists. Here is the link to that: th-cam.com/video/iA2_5Cn_ByY/w-d-xo.html.
Great video as usual but there were one or two minor innacuracies. As a fan of both goth and metal i dont care about labels i can tell you real goth metak has drawn influences from those early goth bands such as sisters and fields of the nephilim .Paradise lost singer says they were avid sisters of mercy fans and some influence is in the music.The trouble is too many bands are being labelled as goth metal when in fact they are just commercial metal. The genre has been watered down.clan of xymox are from the eighties im seeing them in 3 weeks 🕺 peace
"The trouble is too many bands are being labelled as goth metal when in fact they are just commercial metal. The genre has been watered down." This is why I didn't bother with the Gothic Metal thing. Yes, I am aware that some bands actually were able to fuse Gothic rock and metal together like Paradise Lost, Type O Negative, Tiamat (their middle year work), Samhain, and the first album by Within Temptation to name a few but unfortunately, every band that gets considered "Gothic Metal" is usually always a Symphonic or Black Metal band. I'll probably make a video about the few bands who did pull off the sound mix though. And yeah I realized I dun-goofed on Clan of Xymox, my bad lol
Seriously, I don't know how to feel about videos like this. Been hanging around with goth people (and people from other subcultures as well) and this entire music debate never came up we just listened to what we liked and fitted our mood which obviously was goth rock and darkwave stuff but nobody was that obsessed with defining what goth specifically listen to. And if someone dressed goth but didn't listen to much of the music we didn't care either as long as we liked it and vibed with the person because I don't connect with people purely because of the label they give themselves idk. This entire music thing comes naturally to you the moment you hang out with goths (or any other members of music based subcultures in general) anyway and that's why I don't get why every goth on the internet is so strict and vocal about all of this. No matter what goth channel or blog I come around there's always one video talking about how important it is to listen to goth music and content wise they're literally all the same and it just feels like the video maker is trying to proof something by repeating stuff they read on the internet. Those who only do it for the looks weed themselves out anyway in my experience and if someone finds a spot in the scene where they have friends and can share their interests who am I to judge? Sure, goth is a specific thing musically and fashion wise but on the other hand: If someone cares enough to get into the scene (and by getting into the scene I mean connecting with the people and participating in events and not just dressing up) for other reasons than the music that's really on them.
These videos are meant to be educational. Mu goal with these goth videos was helping people learn what goth music is and addressing the misconceptions about the genre. That is why I take a very streamlined approach because I want people to get the straight facts about the music with no meandering nuance because unlike other genres of music, goth doesn't have that luxury for such superfluousness because it's a niche genre and in order to try and educate on it, I need to keep things straight to the point. And I'm just telling it like it is. In order to be a goth, you have to like goth music. It doesn't have to be the ONLY music you listen to but in order to be goth, you have to have likeness for the music just like any other music-based scene. It's not complicated to understand. No one is saying that people can't like dark things or like dressing up in dark fashion but if they want to be considered "goth", they just have to have likeness for goth music alongside the other music they like. If not, then they simply aren't goths and that's fine, goth doesn't have a stranglehold on things darkly-inclined., that's the main message I try to give those who like the dark aesthetic but don't like goth music.
Does dark neoclassical music like Nox Arcana or Midnight Syndicate fall anywhere under the Goth umbrella? If it doesn't, I suppose I can't consider myself part of the subculture.
Neoclassical and Dark Ambient music is not Goth music. Goth music's origin is Post-Punk and in order for something to be a sub-genre of a genre (in this case, Goth rock), it has to use the key characteristics of what the main genre of music uses. The sub-genres of Goth are Deathrock, Darkwave, Ethereal Wave ,and Coldwave as these sub-genres use the key characteristics of the Goth genre (the Goth style guitar, "Scything Style"). Neoclassical is a sub-genre of Classical music and Dark Ambient music is a sub-genre of Industrial music and as explained in the video, Industrial music is it's own genre of music separate from Goth and so is Classical. So no, Neoclassical and Dark Ambient music which bands like Nox Arcana, Midnight Syndicate, Dark Sanctuary, and Draped in Shadows to name a few are not Goth music and liking this kind of music wouldn't make you a Goth, it would just make you a fan of classical music, albeit of a darker flavor. Hope this explanation helps.
@@KaiDecadence Okay. That's kind of a shame, since I've identified with Goth on every other level for years. I felt like I was being excluded from a community of otherwise like-minded people because my music taste didn't match up perfectly. I asked the Lady of the Manners this same question a few years back, and she gave me the opposite response: gothic-charm-school.com/charm/?p=1091 (Then again, I've also never heard a single romantigoth say that Goth is about the music, almost always saying that it's about aesthetic and mindset, so I guess that means the entire branch should be written off.) If darkly inclined people can't be called Goths, then should we be a separate subculture unto ourselves, one that really is based around aesthetic and mindset rather than any particular music taste (or fashion style, for that matter)? I need some community to be apart of, and if it's not Goth, what is it?
You don't own the word "gothic" or "goth". And I don't mean that you personally don't own it. I mean the goth music subculture doesn't own it. It had its history and established meaning long before goth music existed. Because of that, your proposal to use the term "darkly inclined" for people who aren't into goth music is very much unwarranted. In the age of the internet, the music subculture is going to die off, since music doesn't seem to be a force capable of creating insulated communities anymore. Even before the internet, a lot of goths apparently got into the subculture through things other than goth rock. The aesthetics developed by the goth music subculture clearly have more staying power than the music that spawned it. If you are going to cling to the music, the things you value are going to die with it, while the subculture centered around the aesthetics will live on and flow into the more general "gothic" sensibility.
Tsk Tsk where do I even start with this. Unless you're a part of a old Germanic tribe that doesn't even exist anymore or are a fan of the music, yes the term Goth DOES apply to those involved with the music. The word was never even used again until the Post Punk style of the 70s came along. And are you serious? The music is totally in full force if you actually get involved in the actual scene because there are plenty of Goth bands today, both old and new that are carrying on the music. Pumping out new music and touring just as much so don't come at me saying that the music is dead because that is a big lie. The music hasn't gone anywhere and it has always been here since the 80s, just underground.
Apart from the tribal union, there's the architecture, an alphabet, a type of script, the literature... i.e. a whole aesthetic sensibility and a cultural layer that hasn't gone anywhere and continues to evolve. Just because an 80s post-punk subculture adopted the term, doesn't mean they (or anyone claiming their heritage) own it now. It just means that they stated their allegiance to the aforementioned aesthetic sensibility. They are part of it, not sovereigns of it. Regarding the music, I don't think you understood what I meant. The music will continue to be made as long as there are people enjoying it, I'm not arguing about that. However, it can't form communities the same way it did before. Before Internet, people formed social connections only through physical connections. To listen to a specific kind of music, you in most cases had to go to specific physical places where there would be other people wanting to hear the same kind of music. Music was thus a major factor in forming social connections and associations. It's not anymore. Why would a phone gazer choose to tie his identity to a particular piece of music he liked over any other piece of music he liked? Unless the music itself has the power to draw similar people together and be the basis of informal connections, it's not going to happen. Considering a lot of goths got into the subculture through different kinds of music, or got into the music after they got into the subculture, it doesn't look like goth rock has that power. The goth aesthetic however clearly does.
@@kaktotak8267 Again, Gothic =/= Goth And before Goth came from the music, it was not a subculture nor a way of life, it was just a descriptor and "Goth" didn't resurge until The Post-Punk movement. Furthermore, Goths are still talking about the music today online. I don't know what you're talking about, I'm in 2 online Goth groups and the music is shared, discussed, and talked about on the daily. New Bands being shown every few weeks while talking about our favorite older bands or their songs. And uh yes? Do you not go to Goth clubs? Proper Goth nights play Goth music which helps out wanderers or newcomers who attend them and thus, it only continues the cycle of Goth music reaching people. And you asking "Why would a phone gazer choose to tie his identity to a particular piece of music he liked over any other piece of music he liked" Um, have you seen the Metal subculture? Goth is no different than that. The only difference is that there are tons of posers (no other way to say it) who think that because they like to dress in black clothes or extreme makeup or in recent years, look like an Instagram Witch, it makes them Goth when the reality is that they aren't.
You didn't create a new concept by removing the adjective suffix. That's not how languages work. And you still seem to be missing the point I'm making about the relation between music and subculture. Social networks are a thing now. Finding any kind of music in a couple clicks is a thing now. Metal and goth are not at all the same here. With metal, the fans are called after the music, with goths it's the other way around. The ONLY defining characteristic of a metalhead is love for the music. All the gatekeeping in metal happens over which music is "true metal". Gatekeeping among goths happens over which elements of the subculture should be adhered to. And considering a lot of goths only got acquainted with goth rock AFTER they got into the subculture for some other reason, you don't really have a strong point here.
Neurofunk is a subgenre of drum n bass and techstep not industrial if I remember. I may be wrong, overall you hit on the head and got it into the wall.
Goth culture is more than the music and the way one dresses. It is more about being a deathling, death friendly, and gothic horror books. Love all baby bats, yet everyone needs elders this how we nurture and grow a community.
Goth is not a culture though, it's a 𝗦𝘂𝗯𝗰𝘂𝗹𝘁𝘂𝗿𝗲 and I'm sorry but it's just the truth that it is music-based. There was no Goth scene before Goth music was a thing. Goth & Gothic are not the same neither. Goth is a music genre (and word to describe fans of the genre) while Gothic is a literary term and in the case of music, ANY genre can be Gothic. Kate Bush's "Wuthering Heights" based on the book would be considered a Gothic song but it's not a Goth song to give an example.
So I got into Goth around 2009 so prior to that, I wasn't really a part of another subculture, I was just generally alternative, listening to any rock/alternative that played on my local radio station or caught on the FUSE channel lol I still listen to the stuff today when I'm not listening to Goth music.
I'm a big fan of progressive metal and progressive rock, as well as classical music, so I was wondering if you have any recommendations for heavily instrumental and/or experimental goth music? The only goth band that I know I love is The Cure, all the others I've looked into have not really been so interesting that I'd listen to them on a regular basis (minus maybe London After Midnight).
Well that's the thing when it comes to genres, you're going to hear familiar patterns and instrumentation in them. I'm not really sure what to recommend because I genuinely like the characteristics found in Goth rock & Darkwave but I guess I'll try. Some of my favorites other than London After Midnight - Fields of The Nephilim - She Past Away - Miranda Sex Garden - Voodoo Church - Love Like Blood - Paralysed Age - Bella Morte - Clan of Xymox - Diva Destruction
i actually gooffed on this when i showcased clan of xymox too, but i was actually reading off the wiki..there is misinformation on their offical info sites and i think that's also kinda the problem too. i had to do some more research to find they actually were the same time as the other more popular ones.
Yeah as I was preparing for the video, I did read that Clan of Xymox did have an album in 1987 I think but I forgot when I got around to writing the script lol
the only thing I disagreed is that I do consider industrial part of goth music. it develop into it's own now, especially after NIN. but in the beginning bands like Throbbing Gristle to like Skinny Puppy and Ministry. Their sound have a lot of common in both sounds and theme(like can it be more goth to have a song call everyday is Halloween ). and with Goth Metal, there are a few bands that are actually coming from goth sounds, like Lacrimosa was a band began as a goth band but moving toward metal while evolving their sounds and style. and there's Type O Negative was mixing goth and metal together, and like gothmister etc. I think the main issue with goth metal is people mixed up Symphonic metal and other rather similar style dark band that are gothic in a way but not GOTH. so I do think there is goth metal but just way less the how people labeled. I think I just have a broader definition of Goth Music?
I vehemently disagree on the Gothminister thing, I heard a few of their songs from their albums about a year ago and I don't hear any Goth rock influence in their sound at all. No deep droning drums, no high-pitched or mellowtone bass guitar or stringy delayed drenching guitar strings. Just absolutely nothing so I definitely don't agree with that claim. My overall thoughts on Gothic Metal that I forgot to put in the video was that there have been some band, emphasis on "some" bands that did actually blend genuine Gothic Rock with Metal. Paradise Lost... Well their first few albums, The "Aegis" album of Theatre of Tragedy, Tiamat, Samhain, and Type O Negative's work. But the point I was trying to make is that while yes there have been a few bands that actually genuinely blended actual Gothic Rock and Metal together, they were a scathingly small amount and unfortunately, way too many Metal bands being labeled as "Gothic Metal" in the form of blending Gothic Rock & Metal are nothing by Symphonic and Black metal bands. I was actually going to address this in another video I have coming up but well, here's a sneak peak lol As for Industrial, I again have to disagree. Like I mentioned in the video, Industrial had nothing to do with Goth or even Punk and really did come from Electronic & Noise music. Industrial has always been it's own thing as it housed it's own many different sub-genres just like Goth did (like I showed in the music chart). Rivetheads was the term used to describe the fans of Industrial music. Just because the Industrial look was dark didn't mean it came directly from the Goth subculture. On the "Everyday is Halloween" claim, yeah I'm sorry but I never bought into the whole "Halloween is a Goth holiday" thing. To me, Halloween is not a Goth holiday. It's A Pagan holiday sure, but Paganism is not a Goth thing. Now to be fair, I could understand why some would think Industrial music came from Goth when you listen to a band like Skinny Puppy who's singing style definitely felt like t was meant for Gothic rock sound at the time but the sound structure just takes way more influence from Electronic and Synth of that time (talking about their 80s work). But see, while Goth and Industrial are not the same thing, the music is enjoyed by both parties and that's why a lot of people consider Industrial, at least the older stuff a close relative of Goth. Like a sister style. And Goths and Rivetheads tend to enjoy each others music in the same that a Classic Rock fan tend to enjoy Rockabilly music. I hope this helps explain things. It's just the way I personally see things really.
I really enjoyed this video. ^^ It was easy to follow and you articulated everything very well. I know some people make a distinction between goth and gothic and while I do understand where they're coming from, I just don't see those ideas catching on on a larger scale. I think the terms have been used interchangeably for so long now it's become very ingrained. And darkly inclined.. it doesn't really roll off the tongue easily and I would feel a little bit pretentious describing myself like that personally. xD All that aside though I loved all the bands you recommended! It does get really repetitive seeing the same 5 bands recommended over and over again in videos. Maybe the new protocol should be if they're listed on wikipedia, don't list them in a video. I'm sure everyone who looks up goth has read the wikipedia articles anyway haha. List other bands. xp
Well that's why I said "Gothic" or "Alternative" could be used as well if Darkly Inclined was too much lol My point is that for me, I will never conflate a Goth and a Gothic person the same, especially after all the research I've done haha. As for the bands, I have a ton in the library and believe me, I anticipated some people may get irritated hearing the same bands over and over again but I was nervous that if I included more obscure bands, a lot of watchers wouldn't understand where I was coming from so I caved lol But I'll keep that in mind for next time haha.
Yeah, I understand! And I meant just goth youtubers in general always listing the same staple bands over and over. xp I think it was totally necessary you listed them in this video. You're all good with your band recommendations. Lots to check out. ^^
Ah okay lol Yeah, I tried to mix both really. That's why I named some staple bands like The Cure, Siouxsie, Sisters of Mercy, etc but I also tried to show some other bands like Diva Destruction, Fields of the Nephilim, London After Midnight, and Bella Morte to name a few. Granted they were just featured as Albums but still haha.
Asking more for clarification than to be antagonistic, but how is the 80s Goth Elitist example that different from your statement that music based on electronic and not post-punk (i.e. industrial) is not goth? Does this mean that you don't believe cybergoths are legitimate goths? Does synthpop, EBM and Aggrotech not count as goth either?
Well I'm going to answer your question and you'll probably won't like it but it's just my honest take. - "How is the 80s Goth Elitist example that different from your statement that music based on electronic and not post-punk (Industrial) is not Goth?" Here's the deal. Industrial music never came from Goth, it didn't even come from Punk. It originated out of the Electronic music style along with a genre of music called "Noise". The look around the late 80s, early 90s may have looked dark but just because the look was dark didn't automatically mean it was a Goth style and the only reason that happened was because of the mainstream during the mid 90s when the actual Goth scene started going more underground and the media painted Industrial as the new Goth when it really wasn't. Furthermore, there was an electronic synth style that came from Goth and that was Darkwave & Coldwave music. Those was the genre that took the Gothic rock sound and added in more synthesizers to make it sound more digitized and dance friendly. - "Does this mean that you don't believe CyberGoths are legitimate Goths?" Me personally, the style itself? No, I don't consider it a "Goth" style. The actual background of the CyberGoth was mainly from the Raver and Industrial scenes. I'm convinced that the only reason it got called a "Goth" style was again, the mainstream media as at the time, they were deeming any musician or person who was wearing dark colors were a Goth. I mean, taking account what Cyber was made up by, it drew influence from militant look (Industrial) and sexy (Raver club girl). So no, I don't consider it a "Goth" style but I do consider it a part of the Industrial scene. - "Does synthpop, EBM and Aggrotech not count as goth either?" Again, no I wouldn't consider those styles as Goth styles. However, at least with Synth Pop anyway, considering how a lot of Goths tend to like 80s music, I've always considered it more of a "Goth-friendly" style of music. EBM & Aggrotech fall under the Industrial subgenre camp as their stylistic origins take from Industrial. I hope this answers your question. :)
As I said before, I was just asking for clarification and I'm not trying to start anything. I haven't been in the goth scene long enough to really have a concrete opinion on these things, so that's why I'm curious to learn other people's takes. I do, however, based on my own research, agree that goth is a music based subculture. It just seems that what constitutes as goth music (outside of the well established 80s post punk bands) is still up for debate. As The Count from Cemetery Confessions points out, goth is a scene that is continually questioning and defining itself and not everyone agrees. That's part of what I find so fascinating and invigorating (at least when the debates are cordial and not just flat out arguments). Now I'd be really interested to hear the opinion from people who are in the gothic metal and cybergoth subcultures who are also well versed in the history of these musical movements as to whether they can be included in "goth."
I understand. Like I said in the video, I've been learning about the subculture for 8 going on 9 years and I finally came to my final conclusion last year in 2016. That's why I included my bits of the Goth sub-genres of music to help show people that 80s Post Punk was not the only type of Goth music offered as it was used in other sounds such as the synth-based style of Darkwave & Coldwave music to the mixing of putting more emphasis on the punk and heavier rock side creating Deathrock and soothing, ethereal chill vibes of Ethereal wave. Like I said in the video, the people who believe that only 80s Post Punk is Goth music, they're just being 1980s snobs who can't accept that the foundational sound was also used to create other styles such as the ones I outlined earlier. But if all else, I hope that the video and my explanations helped a bit lol
DeeDee Blackwater Personally, I and many others do consider Cyber a part of the goth subculture. It has grown and intertwined together, especially in Western Europe where the movement began (I know it began in England, but it has really taken off in Germany!). If you hear any live music playing in a club nowadays, you do hear EBM, Trance, as well as synth and ethereal. Goth has evolved, so whether or not it has roots to the original music shouldn't matter, because it is widely accepted in the community. That being said, the vocal styles of either is similar. The low, almost robotic, monotonous tone being almost drowned out with the instruments (I'm sure plenty of new artists are very much inspired by the classic eighties bands).
The sub genre argument has been going on since music even existed ( in all genres ) , good job with the video , I do understand there is a need for sub genres, but on the other hand , some sub genres exist just for the sake of it , I think every New generation likes to ( Frankly ) make up sub genres to make them feel like its their own . Somoene needs to do a video on , not the music or fashion , but actual History , as in 12th century Gothic era , because I doubt very seriously the people that existed back then wasn't Listening to The Cure or Bauhaus .............Well, maybe The cure ,but that's it ( ha ha )
That's why I say time and again that there is a difference between a Goth and a Gothic Inclined person. "Goth" didn't become a thing until the 70s music scene (and yes, I know about the Visigoth tribe but they have nothing to do with the subculture). Gothic inclined people have always been arounf since the 12th century as these people were the ones who were doing the Gothic art subjects of paintings, architecture, and later on in the mid 1700s+, Literature. And on the sub-genre thing, I do think the common ones highlighted in the video are legitimate and they do help people find a particular sound that derived from the general Goth sound. But I will agree that I have seen some waird genres that totally were made up lol
I do and now realize what musically pure Goth, and I can clearly see what iz in itz purest forms. Having able to distinguish this now I know that pure Goth can't be industrial, but Goth industrial iz a hybridized form of Goth fused heavy intense music, so what if itz not pure Goth I'll get over it.
Yeah no, I should've explained more in the industrial thing but frankly, every time I hear a band someone calls "Goth Industrial" and I give it a listen, I hear absolutely no Goth traits in it at all. I'm going to expand more on this in another video coming soon but all I say is that it's nonsense.
It doesn't quite seem to me that "darkly inclined" is a thing. I don't really see people referring to themselves as that. It's rather just a throwaway label goths made up to get rid of people who don't listen predominantly to goth music. Gatekeeping your scene is one thing. You absolutely have a right to reclaim the goth label from people who use it erroneously. But they don't have to accept your made-up "darkly inclined" label either. None of this would be happening if you hadn't appropriated a term that used to stand for a centuries old traition of romantic literature in the first place. That's why you have such a problem with "posers" while metal, for instance, does not. And no, the distinction between "goth" and "gothic" doesn't really work here.
"Darkly-Inclined" has been a descriptor phrase for quite some time and just because you don't care for it doesn't take away it's validity and that it does have a true meaning. It's true that it's started being used more in the last few years as a counter to people calling themselves "goth" when they really aren't. The other and more popular word that was used in place of darkly-inclined was "alternative" but darkly-inclined caught on more because a lot of people in the alternative people tend to like things considered dark so really they can be interchangeable, especially since both go against mainstream. The simple fact of the matter is that goth is and always has been a 𝐦𝐮𝐬𝐢𝐜-𝐛𝐚𝐬𝐞𝐝 scene and that without the music, there would be no goth period. > 𝙉𝙤𝙣𝙚 𝙤𝙛 𝙩𝙝𝙞𝙨 𝙬𝙤𝙪𝙡𝙙 𝙗𝙚 𝙝𝙖𝙥𝙥𝙚𝙣𝙞𝙣𝙜 𝙞𝙛 𝙮𝙤𝙪 𝙝𝙖𝙙𝙣'𝙩 𝙖𝙥𝙥𝙧𝙤𝙥𝙧𝙞𝙖𝙩𝙚𝙙 𝙖 𝙩𝙚𝙧𝙢 𝙩𝙝𝙖𝙩 𝙪𝙨𝙚𝙙 𝙩𝙤 𝙨𝙩𝙖𝙣𝙙 𝙛𝙤𝙧 𝙖 𝙘𝙚𝙣𝙩𝙪𝙧𝙞𝙚𝙨 𝙤𝙡𝙙 𝙩𝙧𝙖𝙞𝙩𝙞𝙤𝙣 𝙤𝙛 𝙧𝙤𝙢𝙖𝙣𝙩𝙞𝙘 𝙡𝙞𝙩𝙚𝙧𝙖𝙩𝙪𝙧𝙚 𝙞𝙣 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙛𝙞𝙧𝙨𝙩 𝙥𝙡𝙖𝙘𝙚 That's because it's not true. "Goth" is not a short abbreviation for "Gothic" and side from the ancient Germanic tribes that used the term in it ("Ostrogoths", "Visigoths", "Crimean Goths"), the term was not used again until the late 70s when the goth genre and music scene kick-started and the genre title stuck with it. Prior to that, "goth" and "gothic" were not the same. For example Gothic literature was never called "Goth literature" nor was Gothic architecture called "Goth architecture".
@@KaiDecadence Fair enough. I would nonetheless advise you to think a bit more about the unintended consequences of your stance. Especially since I know you to be politically reasonable. You wanted to keep the gothic mindset out and have the goth subculture be about music only. And you succeeded. But guess what? That philosophical void is now being filled by SJWs inserting their ideology. And most of the scene is buying into or at least accepting it.
@@edgyintellect177 It's not about philosophy though, it's just frank truth. Before goth music came out, there was no "goth scene" period. There have been darkly-inclined people for centuries whereas goth has only been around for like 42 years now as of 2022 and darkly-inclined people have thrived without having specific music since it's an interest in a type of tone and aesthetic. When goth came around, it did attract darkly-inclined people but the music is what started the goth scene and has always been the focus despite what the mainstream media's bastardization of it in the 1990s-2000s. The reason why people like me bring the distinction up is because it's important for people to know that 1). Goth doesn't have a stranglehold on all things dark. 2). You don't have to be goth to like dark things. That's just all there is to it. As for the SJW thing, political ideology is just that, an ideology. In the case of goth it doesn't define the scene.
@@KaiDecadence false, goth music and the related aesthetic birthed the mindset and philosophy before 90s misappropriation and it revolves around SPECIFIC darkly inclined themes NOT anything dark there was a never subculture or movement based around selective darkly inclined things together or collectively with a philosophical outlook except goth, maybe the decadent movement which goth the modern subculture has taken done influence from, liking all things dark outside of goth is very recent thing and is a result of emo and internet and pop culture misappropriating and extracting goth it is usually shallow, limited, short lived and inconsistent, it was uncommon and obscure and still mostly inconsistent in the past, ex liking dark movies and poster art. it was/is incredibly rare to find someone being truely, deeply and consistently darkly inclined across multiple aspects at any point especially before the mid 2000s . Rewriting goth as nothing but music + fashion should be considered a crime, it was acceptable maybe in 1979-1984 to some degree to think that …you must be shallow and rigid. A bunch of normie music fans covert narcissists can’t change goth. It’s clear you guys are trying to subvert the narrative since 15-16. You do have real goth metal bands.
What do you mean? Like General Dark alternative bands? I figured it was kinda implied but I'm planning on making a video to go in depth with music examples so just stay tuned for that.
Upon certain inspection with Neoclassical Darkwave, it's not really a genre... A lot bands labeled as such are just simply neoclassical. As for Coldwave, there are Asylum Party, Lebanon Hanover, Kas Product, Norma Loy, and Love is Colder Than Death
Kai Decadence I guess you can say that. I always did enjoy modern Goth Rock and Deathrock bands though. I always told people that if Goth or Deathrock isn’t your preference than you’re not it.
@@justinosborne5280 Oh I see. Well I mean still, you have to have enjoyment for the genre otherwise it's like calling yourself a Metalhead when you don't listen to Metal. But yeah, it doesn't have to be the primary thing of course.
Kai Decadence Sorry, what I mean is that, is goth a state of mind as well as a fashion/lifestyle? i dress conservately for my profession but I've been listening to gothic music since my teenage years. I guess, outwardly I dont appear goth but I still go to shows, have gothy friends and listen to the music.
Ah okay. Well to answer your question. "Is Goth a state of mind?" Honestly I don't think it is. I do think that there could be a darkly inclined mindset that a lot Goths happen to have but it really just comes down to the music because without the music, there really wouldn't be any subculture. The fashion has it's place but it's not a necessity. And this leads into the other question that yes, one can still be Goth even if they don't dress darkly inclined. So long as the individual enjoys actual Goth music, I think they are still Goth.
edward pinkney I respectfully disagree. 80s Goth rock isn't really for everyone so that's why I don't think it's necessary so long as you like or enjoy 90s goth rock or 00s goth rock. It's really all the same.
NO, it really isn't and a simple research on the genre would show you why. There is no such thing as "Goth industrial". Goth has always been Goth with it's few sub-genres and Industrial has always been Industrial with it's own sub-genres/derivative genres.
I know this is an old comment but, actually no, Industrial existed before goth. It has a different origin, techniques, ideology and subcultures (goth music -> goth, (post)industrial music -> rivethead). Just because a lot of the industrial music you hear at clubs can be simmilar to goth or synthpop doesn't mean its the same. For example, powerelectronics (industrial subgenre) sounds nothing like goth at all.
The Goth subculture without the music doesn't make sense. One can dress Gothic and be Gothic without the music, but you can't be Goth without the music, or else you'd be a poser
Well actually even with "Gothic", there is a certain criteria that needs to be made for that and that is that the person has to have interest in Gothic Literature &/or Gothic Film. It's been a long while since I did this video but over time I learned that even "Gothic" has been misconstrued, almost just as much as Goth has and that Gothic is not a catch-all term for anything dark. So in order for one to be truly "Gothic-inclined", they have to at least be interested in the literature and/or film that the literary genre (because that's what Gothic is) is centered around just like how Goth is centered around music.
Kai Decadence it's used to group black, doom, death, and thrash together. Kind of like Viking metal is used to group bands that have lyrics about Vikings.
Yes you can be considered as a goth with out listing to gothic rock or gothic music the original term for goth is visigoths so if you live the way they lived and speek their language germanic or gothic language you can be considered as a goth you don't have to listen to the music but to be considered as a goth in the subculture you need to like the music if you only like the fashion and the dark things then your a gothic person not a goth.
the point about Gothic Metal not being goth _IS_ contentious, particularly the likes of Type O Negative which very much embodies the spirit of goth. also Love Metal like HiM is still considered goth by a number of us. however i agree that those who _only_ like such bands which arguably run tangential or p'haps are on the "outer ring" of the goth ""Venn diagram"" (just to textualize a visual), are correspondingly on the fringe of goth inclusion and have alt or darkly-inclined leanings in something of a percentage there's so much about the other delicious goth music types (darkwave, synthpop, post-punk in particular
also want to say that it's so incredibly inspiring to see how tightly-knit the goth youtube scene is, at least on this topic! all the peeps who's points i really admire are all in one place in the comment section of a video w/ approx. 1.5k views, on a channel with 2.2k (at the time of this writing)... how down-to-earth we all are is breathtaking! i love us!!!
Gothic Metal is just such a disingenuous term these days because the average band who gets labelled as such don't have ANY Gothic rock, post-punk, or darkwave sound at all. It's nothing but straight up heavy metal mixed with Doom, Death, or Symphonic Metal. I am fully aware that there are some, extra big emphasis on SOME bands that actually did blend genuine actual Gothic rock with Metal like Samhain, Paradise Lost, the "Aegis" album from Theatre of Tragedy, and yes, a few Type O Negative albums along with an album from Goth band Dreadful Shadows who took their Gothic rock sound and mixed it with Metal for an album. But I decided not to include it here because of the fact that so many bands labeled "Gothic Metal" are not Goth in the slightest because they don't take any of the sound at all. But I'll make a video on Gothic Metal and try to set the record straight on it. As for HIM, I don't think "Love Metal" is an actual thing, just a word they used to describe themselves to make them stand out but frankly I find the term ridiculous. Anyway, yeah I know that HIM's earlier stuff sounded more Gothic rock until about 2004 with the album Dark Light which was more darker styled alternative rock in a similar way to the Ava Adore era of The Smashing Pumpkins. And yeah we have a word for non-Goth bands that tend to appeal to some Goths. We call them Goth-friendly bands. Not Goth bands in the slightest but they have a sound that some Goths do enjoy but just because a Goth likes a non-Goth band doesn't make the band themselves Goth is all. And these people who don't like any kind of actual Goth music but just darker alternative bands, they're just Darkly inclined people. And I think it's because not everyone is into rock-sounding music lol
even some earlier Pumpkins, which was really shoegaze but which in my mind runs tangential to goth as well, are pretty goth in a lot of aspects! Corgan himself identified as a "goth boy", tho admittedly much of their sound isn't even shoegaze. anyway, yeah likely love metal is HiM exclusive, but you sound elitist when you ridicule it. i was just bringing in a genre, whether they coined it or what-have-you, because i was talking about genres ...you were talking about genres... there we go honestly i don't need the lecture on what are non-goth bands or goth-friendly... almost certainly i was listening to many of these bands before you were out of grade school. also don't need your lecture on darkly-inclined as, if you'll expand my comment above, i actually used the term myself i don't profess to know everything about every goth music type, band, or album. but it would feel better to not be talked down to by someone who's supposed to be my sibling in the dark. if anything i'm your older sister here ;p
Mmm sure but Shoegaze really is it's own thing as It's really just another alternative rock genre that took inspiration from Indie rock, Alternative, dream pop, and neo-psychedelia. And I can see Billy Corgan listening to some Post-Punk , it seems right up his alley with how popular it was in the 80s though looking at his listed influences he's shared, seems like he was all about 90s alternative rock or some classic hard rock. And I'm not talking down to you. I'm just very straightforward with certain things and Goth is one of them since I put so much time looking into the music and want to help stave off the misappropriation the genre has gotten in the last decade and a half so if it came off like that, I apologize. But any case, that was the main reason why I didn't bother with Gothic Metal as I want to make a separate video for that topic.
thanks for the apology... because i love the core of our genres so much, i don't feel the least bit uncomfortable discussing what's really 'fringe' and what may actually have more "goth in it" than ppl presently give credit. i don't believe that goth music is a static thing... instead i find it to be amorphous in some respects. there will always be some genres under the rock umbrella which will never BE goth, and i fully accept that. i've done a fair amount of research into goth music types as well just to see how i'm feeling may align with how others are feeling. i can tell you that i've definitely seen more than one youtuber call HiM and Type O unequivocally GOTH music, _and_ i've also seen like an 'infographic' which sought to label those who appreciate HiM as the sort of tunes baby bats listen to. this seems elitist to me IMO, particularly when, like you rightly pointed out, some early jams of theirs (think Join Me in Death and Killing Loneliness) really scream goth to me at a vibratory level i will always believe you have to like goth music to be goth, it's something which is the core of how we're 'shaped' (so to speak) and bleeds its way into our personalities which we find urges us on to explore our outward appearance. i've already listed such inarguable genres earlier, and love them dearly. such an understanding of oneself wrought by what we listen to yields something inherent and non-transferrable (is the best way i can sum it up) ...i'm of course not writing this to lecture _you_ on such things, and am instead describing the experience from whence i came that^ being said, i am one to cheerfully & dynamically embrace changes and "upgrades" to our understandings of what it means to BE us, and this includes taking a sharper and more fine-grained look at various sounds to see "wait, what? am i hearing goth here?!" and then following up on such notions with an open mind. not so open that we wander into Myley Cyrus and Lady Gaga putting out goth music, but just like you and I pointed out earlier: certain periods of time for _some_ groups actually yielded what _some_ of us believe is goth music. hell, you're prolly aware of the time when Clan of Xymox was 'Xymox' ..some goths believe this period of time to be when they "sold out and became a dance club band". my feeling is that their tunes from that time are _just_ as delicious as their 'canon' darkwave stuff, and in some cases even better
Oh geez, this is an old video, huh? Pretty typical for me -- I always come late to the party -- not to mention, my posts tend to be huge, and I guess for a lot of folks, reading is no fun. I don't know if anyone is going to reply to this, but oh well, here goes nothing... So, you're not necessarily Gothic, but you're Goths (fans of Goth rock), right? You're music nerds. Why not go even further to emphasize this by calling yourselves Goth rockers instead of Goths? That might make things easier for you as well as us. And there's nothing wrong at all with being music nerds. You're probably pretty nerdy in general, with a special interest in an underground genre of music. How very Autistic-like, actually. I'm not saying you're Autistic, but I'm Autistic and proud, so for me to say you're Autistic-like is a high compliment. I have no issues with you. But the Goth music subculture is different from being Gothic. Also, you know, we all have different thoughts on things. Just like not all Christians take the Bible literally. Everyone is different, see? And some nerd out on other things, such as Gothic aesthetics/style/fashion. Gothic style has so many different influences, when you break it down, and it keeps evolving. It's not about copying rock stars by trying to look like them. Even those rock stars were influenced by so many different things, anyway. And some nerd out about identities and self-identity labels. You know, Gothic is a general descriptor, and you can't tell anyone how to self-identify or how to express their identity. Gothics are no threat to your music scene. But if you try to involve us by insulting us, there will be pushback. We have an identity that is worth defending, and we can defend it just as well (if not better) as you can defend your music scene. We have a right to identify as Gothic. We're not "posers" in the least because we're not trying to be like you. Honestly, we really don't want to be like you. (I promise!) Enjoy your music-based subculture. None of you have any authority to tell others how to identify. On the Internet, it's easy to make yourself seem "bigger" than you are. Yet I notice you're all just a small group of pretty much the same people that happen to be highly vocal. You keep telling us how we should identify, so what's wrong with my suggestion for you?Just call yourselves Goth rockers. It describes you perfectly. It's exactly what you want, since the music is obviously the most important thing to you. It's just a matter of respect. I respect you, and you respect me. Heck, did you know I actually really like a ton of Goth rock music? I don't know if I'd consider myself a Goth rocker though. Also, I really don't care for the whole club scene. Social group interactions really aren't my bag -- frankly, they're tedious and exhausting to me. But have a good time, all of you -- I'll seriously be rooting for you as a well-wisher in your lives.
I don't have time to reply to this comment as I'm heading for work but yes this video is old and I touch up more in this video. > th-cam.com/video/lk_QKoWWh2E/w-d-xo.html
If goth was a school subject you would be a perfect teacher. I just love hearing your opinions because you're honest but respectful.
Aw thank you ^-^
Kai, you killed it. I love everything about this video. It's so clear and concise. I love the way you outlined everything so succinctly. You're epic!
Aw thanks a lot! I tried to be as thorough as I could to help expand on the topic haha. Thanks and same to you, keep up the awesome content :D
@@KaiDecadence If it’s okay with you later when I am done shopping and doing housework could I explain some of my life and what happened to me and stuff I started to pick up and like when I was growing up and maybe help me find what I would be labeled under please
@@DamienSousa I can't make promises with the schedule I have. Instead, I highly suggest checking out this video I made after I made this one, you might get your answer there.
th-cam.com/video/lk_QKoWWh2E/w-d-xo.html
I agree with you, goths are people who listen to goth music period. Goth festivals are based on Goth music and not literature or movies or some dark romantic philosophy.
I hate how the mainstream throws the word 'goth' at anyone that wears black lipstick. I'm a rocker and metalhead and I would totally hate it if someone who only listens to bands like mcr and twenty one pilots claims that they are metalhead.
I don't understand why people who claim to like Gothic style and fashion and literature and macabre stuff (the ones who you call Darkly inclined in this video) wouldn't enjoy actual Goth music as the music's dark atmosphere caters to their love for darker side of life. I always thought if you liked the Gothic arts you would naturally enjoy the music as well. I feel that lots of these people just don't give the music a chance and label themselves in a subculture they don't actually belong to.
You explain things really well. I'm glad that you and Angela made videos on this topic.
Thanks dear and you're right on the money. That's why I always use the metalhead analogy to help get my point across as there are more people into Metal than Goth in terms of music.
And yeah I also agree that I can't fathom or understand why a Gothic inclined person wouldn't like at least some Goth music because the sound is dark and so inviting and it doesn't even have to be the 80s stuff (which I explained in the video pretty thoroughly I think). But I have noticed a certain... Mindset a lot of these people have, the ones who claim to be Goth even though they don't like Goth music.
Other than them mixing up Goth & Gothic / Darkly Inclined, a lot of these people tend to be Metalheads and they probably initially believed that Goth music was stuff like Death Metal, Black Metal, or Symphonic Metal and when they actually hear what real Goth music sounds like, it totally catches them off guard and sounds nothing like they expected. And because the music isn't hard enough for them (well compared to Metal), they reject the music but still want to keep the Goth moniker because they feel their likeness for the aesthetic or the other Gothic inclined stuff should be more than enough; not understanding that Goth was always a music-based subculture just like their metal music they love so much. And I'm sure if that some pop punk kid tried to claim he was a metalhead because he liked the name and "Street cred" of it but he listens to MCR, 21 Pilots, and Fall Out Boy. It obviously wouldn't sit well with them and Goth is no different.
Bur anyway, I think i waffled on long enough haha. Thanks for the comment and I'm glad you enjoyed the video!
I think it's true that people who are naturally drawn to a dark aesthetic are also drawn to dark music. The question is whether that music is Goth or not. I love dark neoclassical music, and I really don't like rock, punk, or synth music. So, I like dark music a lot, but is it Goth? Maybe?
Nyx Shadowhawk nope it’s not goth music is consistent of dark wave post punk and other things
He made a good video on I would check it out to see more details 😉
For me, it's not about "not liking Goth rock music" as much as it is an emphasis on music not being the most important thing. For me, being Gothic is a way of being and living, a way of perceiving things, an aesthetic sensibility, and an identity. So what if one doesn't like Goth rock?
Even if Goth rock was the gateway for a lot of folks to realize this about themselves and find each other, so what? There are other aspects, too, which are just as valid, such as self-expression through appearance and art, films, and literature, and there is other music as well that invokes "the Gothic."
Being Gothic is much more fluid, and thus more personal and meaningful to us than simply a music scene. Even if we happened to make it that way. Perhaps there are many who were even from the scene, originally, and then became like an offshoot. Clearly there is a division between those who believe "Goth is a music-based subculture" and those who believe "Gothic is a self-identity label."
Just call yourselves Goth rockers if you want to avoid confusion. Gothics have our identity and we’re not going anywhere, and neither are you, apparently. For myself in particular, it's an identity based on embracing Otherness and self-empowerment through self-expression, and shedding light on things most often misunderstood. Otherness, as is represented and reflected through "the Gothic," is at the very heart of being Gothic.
I don't associate my identity with any media that I consume, to such an extent as to identify with a fandom or subculture. I associate my identity with my self-expression though (and my self-expression with my identity), because I created it and it comes from intangible abstractions that make me "me." I have my own style, which is extremely flamboyant and meaningful to me. It is my art, which reflects an important part of who I am. It is sacred to me.
So don't be telling Gothics how we should identify. You're interfering with something beautiful and sacred. There's more to it than being "Darkly-inclined," even. Yes, educate others about the music scene. There's nothing wrong with having a music scene. But there is another type known as Gothic, and while often relating and having an overlap, it is different to be Gothic than to be a fan of Goth rock and a member of a music scene. Thank you.
@@bumpytoad4464 There is another video where Kai explains the difference between a Goth, which is a Goth music fan, and Gothics. He is not putting down Gothics.
This is such a great video. I love how you touched on the actual definition of elitists. It gets thrown around so often that people have forgotten the real meaning of the word. I'm so thankful for people like you and Angela Benedict for putting this stuff out there. I feel with educational videos like this being created, it will only be beneficial and it's proof the scene is always going to stay strong despite the ongoing misconceptions.
Haha thanks and that is definitely what I'm hoping people will see when they watch videos like what we've done when it comes to the subculture.
And no problem, it was a great quote!
Know video is "old" now, but this discussion still is going on.
Myself old enough being young during the 80s must confess my weak spot for gothic rock and postpunk. But I love other types too.
I know many was confused when suddenly cybergoth came into the scene and the discussion back then were if that was ok or not. Ended up most of us accepted that and we could even add more things for the look "over the borders of genre".
I do love many newer bands too. Plus I do like some industrial types too. Even goth metal was accepted in many clubs.
But I live in Sweden, so mybe not the same everywhere.
I have been told by youngsters (I've just turned 52) that I can't be true goth cause I don't always listen to all of their bands plus I can listen and enjoy other types of music. Plus because I don't look extreme enough.
I had my extremer days til around my early 40s, now more comfy goth. With exception if I dress up for something special. I still love put it all on.
Think my experience comes from the 80s. Where I lived the "goth label" didn't exist yet, but we had the music. And mostly all kids hanged together that wasn't mainstream ones. That mean "goths without knowing the label", punkheads and metalheads often hanged a long plus sometimes the ones more extreme into synth music.
For me a true goth listen to goth. But can listen to other things too. It's not the clothes that makes you goth, but it can add more to you as in expression.
If it's only a look and not music at all, it's just a "trendy thing" fashion wise.
Latest people try connect e girl label to goth. But I think I understood that's just a look and nothing to do with music.
Thanks for a fun video 🖤🖤🖤🖤
Well said :)
Great video! Of course I agree with you, but I also like how you showed examples of goth genres. And thanks for correcting me even though you're not aware that you did. I put "gothic metal" into the goth music umbrella, but you're right - it's actually a genre of heavy metal. Lol. Looks like I have some studying to do with the genres of goth. I love your cartoon representation of yourself. :)
Thanks! Yeah, I wanted to try to be as thorough as I could so I can help newcomers have an easier time finding some Goth music/bands to enjoy as while the 80s trad bands are important, I think that it can be a bit hard to take for younger people so it's best to try to ease them in if you know what I mean lol
On Gothic Metal, I did forget to mention that while the genre as a whole nowadays is just nothing more than another sub-style of Metal music, there have been a few, extra emphasis on "Few" bands that actually mixed Gothic Rock & Metal together but like I said, they were few and far between and that's probably why the genre just became nothing but Metal because unlike the few bands that fused Gothic rock with it, most of them don't and only focus on looking dark lol
But yeah, thanks for your comment, I'm glad you enjoyed!
Hmm... I listen to a ton of Gothic Metal bands, that take inspiration from Goth rock. My Dying Bride, Type O Negative, (latter) Love Like Blood, Paradise Lost, Tiamat, Katatonia, Lacrimosa, to name a few. Sucks to exclude this genre, just for being metal. I love 80s post punk, gothic rock, darkwave, death rock etc.
Not only do I agree with you completely, but I applaud how you've created such a practical guide for people who don't know what bands they might enjoy. :)
Thanks a bunch, that was my intention! I wanted to try to show people that there are a few other goth genres worth trying if you don't like 80s Post Punk and I think I'll go further into these genres in another video. :)
Thanks again for watching!
If you're curious to try listening to Goth music, I have created some playlists that are categorized by their sound from Gothic Rock to Darkwave so feel free to give them a look! I also recommend checking out Angela Benedict's playlists as she has created some specified Goth music playlists as well! I'm sure that you'll find a few songs you'll like, I guarantee it!
I very much appreciate this! Thank you for doing that for us!!! 🙏💜
Hey there guys, thanks a lot for watching the video! Like I said in the video, this is just merely my own opinion on this subject matter. Special thanks to Angela Benedict as it was her video that gave me the inspiration to make a video on this topic and if you haven't watched it, I highly recommend it and I'll leave a link down below. And another shout out to Accumortis, Rose Nocturnalia, Eternal Wytch, and Gothic SoulFlower!
☥ Angela's Video: th-cam.com/video/94sXHC_4z_U/w-d-xo.html
☥ Accumortis' Video: th-cam.com/video/ZCn-lBVCX-U/w-d-xo.html
☥ Rose Nocturnalia's Video: th-cam.com/video/oPhT527NL0s/w-d-xo.html
☥ Gothic SoulFlower's Video: th-cam.com/video/viuP_XHtfCI/w-d-xo.html
And to Snowy Lowther, please understand that I in no way hate or dislike you, I think you're a sweet person, this is just merely my own opinion on the subject matter. :)
Kai Decadence I love your style and I love your videos
Thanks!
Oh wow! Thanks for the shoutout! :)
Kai Decadence you're welcome sorry for late reply youtube is being ridiculous and your comment did not show up in my notification
Gothic SoulFlower I love your user name it's cool
What you said at 3:00 about suggesting bands, see, that's the right approach to have with people who don't know much about the goth subculture, music and other stuff related to it :). At least in my opinion it is. I do the same but I am a bit intense, so it might scare off people. I'm the type of person to send people 20 songs back to back :P.
I would be all in favor of having an elite if this elite was more open and respectful. Not elitist jerks. But with power comes responsibilities, and sometimes an oversized ego, sadly.
But when it comes to goth, I tend to be rather inclusive.
Can't believe it took me that long to watch this video, as I've watched most other goth youtubers videos on the subject.
That's what I made the video for, to help newcomers trying to find some music :D
And after talking more about "elitism" with some other people after I made this video, I can see why elitism can actually be a good thing because in Goth's case, it helps keep the subculture on track and prevents it from getting bastardized and considering how people like me, Angela Benedict, and other youtubers who talk about Goth music being called "elitists" simple for being honest then I guess I'm just going to have to roll with it lol
Glad you enjoyed the video nonetheless! I plan on expanding this topic in an upcoming video. :)
4:31 Thank you for saying this! As a rivethead I absolutely hate it when people say Industrial is goth music or when they use the term ‘Industrial goth’ or say rivethead is a style of goth (like romantic, trad, etc) Like no, does this th-cam.com/video/pjGDnX4VZBA/w-d-xo.html sound like goth music? No it fucking doesn’t.
I also want to correct some things about your industrial genres list if you don’t mind.
I’m pretty sure ‘industrial dance’ isn’t a genre. I know it’s often used to describe the aggrotech/powernoise fusion a lot of cybergoths dance too (Eisenfunk, Noisuf-X, etc) , but I’m pretty sure it’more of a description of the more danceable genres than a genre in itself, somebody correct me if I’m wrong though.
Post Industrial is a description for everything that isn’t Industrial™ (original 70’s industrial) and not it’s own genre.
Witchhouse and Neurofunk aren’t (post)industrial
You also missed some genres: Aggrotech, Powerelectronics, Power Noise/Noize/Rhythmic Noise, Technoid/Industrial IDM, Death Industrial, Harsh noise/Japanoise (according to some people), Tribal industrial and Martial industrial.
Not hating, just educating btw.
Side note: how can "Kiss Kiss Bang Bang" STILL be such an absolute banger??😝 I must've heard that song 10,000 times by now, and it's still so good🖤
Haha no clue but it is a fun song lol
Little story about myself:
I've always been a darkly inclined folk. I guess it comes from my love for the work of Tim Burton, which began with Nightmare. I also loved going on Haunted Mansion Holiday during Christmastime; I used to live in SoCal and my parents were annual passholders for Disneyland, so we went there every weekend.
The first Goth song I ever listened to was the Damned's History of the World (Weirdly enough produced by Hans Zimmer.). I didn't know Goth was even a thing when I first listened to the song (I was only 10 or something.)... and I still didn't! It'd take until 2016 until I started getting into the music, when my Sis introduced me to Joy Division with their song Disorder. I loved it so much that I wanted to explore Goth music (I also wanted to explore the subculture as a whole because I loved Kenneth Anderson’s character Marilyn Shine so much that I wanted to know what Goth was.) and... well, I never turned back.
I've also been an 80's nut since I was 13 or so, so I've found myself gravitating towards 80's and that the Cure would be my favorite Goth band. Funny enough, they also happen to be Tim Burton's favorite band. As for music after the 80's, I also really enjoy it. I'm really starting to Drab Majesty, and the Birthday Massacre and Faith and the Muse are also cool.
In short, I've been a Tim Burton fan since youth, but a Goth since 2016. Although I listen to and enjoy the music, from the Mission to Miranda Sex Garden, Clan of Xymox to Cocteau Twins, Fields of the Nephilim to Faith and the Muse, etc., I'm always willing to find even more bands than I already know of and am still exploring. Thankfully, I love the music so much that it's not gonna stop.
What I really want to say is that I agree with everything you have said in this video. Even though I like things that are darkly or Gothically inclined, I still maintain that Goth is a music subculture, and that as I absolutely love the music, I myself am a Goth. I get that some people who like darkly inclined or Gothically inclined things wouldn't like the music under the Goth umbrella, and I think that's alright. Like you said, I wouldn't call them Goth.
So yeah. If you like Goth music, you're a Goth.
Thanks again for making this video. You were honest, respectful and really got the point across. Keep up the awesomeness!
-S.
P.S. Outside of Goth music, I love anything and everything Jim Steinman, even moreso since he did some songs with the Sisters of Mercy and planned to do a Batman musical with Tim Burton at one point. I also love Phil Collins, Danny Elfman/Oingo Boingo and Hans Zimmer (Especially when he works with Lebo M.), mainly due to classic Disney. Again, I'm an 80's nut, but I also love film scores. And Disney. And cinema in general. XD
A very well put explanation. As someone who enjoys the newer goth bands like she past away, ash code, twin tribes I totally think that one can be a goth while not really enjoying the 80s bands but at least knowing about them. There's something for everyone in the goth subculture. You just have to explore the music.
Right exactly. There have been a large amount of Goth bands that have came out since the 1980s so there's bound to be a couple that some will enjoy more than others.
Neoclassical Darkwave IS BEAUTIFUL!😍 I just looked it up and it is a full orchestra!
Amazing what I heard one night...they were actually playing Christian Death in The Ra Shop!
I love your approach in this video and how you just tell it like it is. Also I agree with you!
Thank you dear, glad you enjoyed ^_^
It's all Underground Music and to stay fresh and alive it's always good to take new sounds and ideas to move on. I don't care if it gives me a good feeling. Especially in this bad times.
I mostly agree with what you have said in your video, as I do with all the other goth TH-camrs who have made similar points. However, I'm not sure I follow the argument that industrial and the other 'dark' electronic genres are not part of goth.
I have been under the impression that goth music has TWO major lines of evolution:
1. Guitar driven music that originated in post punk like Public Image Ldt. and Joy Division;
2. Electronic music that originated in early synthpop like Kraftwerk and industrial music like Throbbing Gristle.
The reason I don't consider these two completely seperate genres is that there are numerous bands that are clearly influenced by both these areas of music. The synthesizers that disntinguish post punk from traditional punk rock were developed through experimentation by electronic artists. Darkwave and coldwave are often purely electronic and some bands like Psyche alternate between harsher EBM sounds and more mellow darkwave. The Frozen Autumn, a great darkwave band that is clearly part of the goh scene, have a synthpop side project (Static Movement) that sounds extremely similar to the main band, just without guitars. EBM bands usually have an aggressive look with military boots and partially shaven heads that's very reminiscent of punk. The cool analog synth sound of early coldwave bands often reminds one of '20 Jazz Funk Greats', one of the best known albums by industrial pioneers Throbbing Gristle. I could go on, but I find it clear that it's very difficult to really seperate goth and electronic music and the criterion that true goth music *has* to be derived from punk rock seems way too narrow to me. I think that's the reason that goth rock and various types of darker electronic music are often played at the same clubs and bands of both genres are usually invited to the big goth festivals.
Anyway, that's just my 2 cents and overall you made a lot of good points that I wholeheartedly agree with! Just thought I'd point out where our opinions differ...
Well I don't want to overload you too much on why I have the opinion of Industrial but if open, a TH-camr by the name Amy Nekrotique goes in depth with the roots of Industrial and how it was mainly influenced from Electronic and even Disco music. I highly recommend checking her videos out as she's an avid fan of the music and has so much knowledge on it.
Thanks, will do. BTW, I'm not arguing that goth rock and industrial share the same roots, just that the paths both took intermingle so much that in today's scene it's not sensible to draw a clear distinction between them. But I'll see what this Amy Nekrotique person has to say, maybe I can learn something from her...
No problem and cool.
Tophat Eyeball Amy is awesome! Hands down the most informative on the topic👍I got into goth first, and then discovered industrial in the clubs. I agree about the intermingling in the scene, but I think it's the way the music is made and the instruments used.... that's where you see the difference.
I personally don’t get why so many people are obsessed by using the goth label. I’m mean, you don’t have to listen to goth music in order to wear clothing that is associated with the goth subculture, so why do people make such a big deal out of calling themselfs goth if they're not? I wear a lot of ‘goth’ clothing, but that doesn’t make me goth. I wear some cyber inspired clothing, that doesn’t make me cybergoth. I wear some ‘rivethead’ clothing, I am a rivethead but not because of those clothes.
Nice video btw!
I think you did a great job explaining this issue.
It's probably because these people think that they have to be Goth to like dark things and they don't realize that that is not true.
I still believe goth as a subculture has evolved into something that can be fully enjoyed through aesthetics, but I've never met anyone that doesn't like the music and genuinely don't know how I feel about this. Thanks for the music recs!
You're welcome :)
Can u b a goth and not always dress goth but still listen to goth
Of course. It's not about the fashion, it's about the music and so long as you have some likeness for it, that's really all that matters.
Thank you for this! I am new to Gothic rock and the other genres within goth music. Being new to this, I've seen some conflicting ideas about what is goth music and what isn't. I feel confident that you know a lot about the music, so I get my sources from you!
Thanks and I'm glad you enjoyed the video. If you're up for it, I highly recommend watching a sort of sequel video I made to this where I go more in depth about Goth music with what goes into the key characteristics of the sound and how to tell the difference between a Goth genre and a non Goth genre that gets mistaken as such. It's a little long so I just having something to eat while watching but I try to make things as thorough but not overwhelming as possible haha.
> th-cam.com/video/4GsskYEDgrE/w-d-xo.html
You are saying this as your opinion but, to be honest, this is NOT simply your opinion. It is a stone cold fact. To be a Goth means to like Goth music. If you don't like it, you cannot be Goth. This is so controversial in this subculture but it isn't in any other. For example, if someone was walking around claiming to a Swiftie bc they liked to dress and do their makeup like TS, but didn't know anything about her music, NO ONE would waste a single second to speak up and be like "Actually to be Swiftie means means to be a fan of Taylor Swift's music." It is the same with Goth. This is not opinion, it is simply truth and we shouldn't have to feel timid about presenting it. It's ok to tell the truth. You don't have to start and end this by saying that this is your opinion on the subject. I don't mean this to sound bad or rude, just honest as someone who really struggled to find an answer to this question for so long myself...this video while it was meant to answer the question is another one of those videos that wasn't straightforward enough for people who are really confused bc you kept reverting to "this is my opinion." I took me 4 years to figure out what it actually meant to be Goth bc people who were answering the question were doing this exact thing-saying yeah this is how it is, BUT this is just my opinion guys. So in the end I still felt lost like, well what is it then? Is this fact or is it not? 😭😭😭 We need to answer this question with full confidence for the sake of those searching for the truth about it. Goth is a subject with an actual history and definition. I think the more open and confidently honest we are about this the more the contention around this subject will fade away and the idea of us being elitists will fade bc in the end what I think makes a lot of this seem so elitist to other "Goths" is that many of us are pushing our "opinion" about this as if it's right and saying they're opinion is wrong. In many cases that is really disrespectful since everyone is entitled to their own opinion. So I think this approach offends people like "Ok so why is your opinion better than mine?" But if we present it confidently as historical fact, people can't blame us for that because it's not about us, it just is what it is. That part of the video aside, I do think you presented everything else very well.
This is the most descriptive and wonderfully made video on this topic I have seen! It's a shame that I can't give you a million likes lol 🖤 Also, thank you for clarifying on the "Gothic Metal" being a subgenre of metal and "Industrial" having subgenres and being accepted into the goth subculture because I have seen a lot of people being confused about this. Freaking amazing video!
I'm glad you enjoyed but to give a little correction, it's not that I'm saying Industrial is Goth because it isn't. What I'm saying is that Industrial is really it's own genre full of many different sub-genres just like Goth. I should've expanded more in the video but if people heard what early Industrial sounded like, they'd see how different it sounded and why it really was it's own niche. A good TH-camr I highly recommend checking out for more Industrial info is Amy Nekrotique. Her "Industrial Music 101" videos are super informative and I recommend them to anyone who wants to learn about Industrial music.
But again, glad you enjoyed the video! I have more on the way :)
Kai Decadence Thank you! I will definitely be checking out her channel as well :D
Also, I might have worded my words wrong lol. I meant to say that Industrial is indeed it's own genre, but it has kinda been like sisters with goth in the 90s, if that makes sense. Like Industrial has been loved by goths as well as Goth being loved by rivetheads. I could be wrong, as I'm still a very young fetus lol
Oh okay well yeah, that's pretty fair as both genres were loved between the two. I'm just trying to remind people that say, if you're more into Industrial and not into Goth, the proper term would be "Rivethead" or "Industrialist" (they're pretty interchangeable) and vice versa with those primarily into Goth being "Goth". If that makes sense lol
Kai Decadence Agreed! I was a little nervous that I wasn't using the term "Rivethead" correctly haha
Hope to see more videos soon!
No problem! Yep, all Rivethead means is just a fan of Industrial music. "Industrialist" was the older term haha.
And awesome :)
I highly recommend Cocteau Twins. I feel in love with the dreamy, calm sound right away and The Pink Opaque gave me similar feels as Disintegration by The Cure which I never thought would be possible because Disintegration is my favourite album. For people who like post punk sound like Joy Division, I recommend The Sound, beautiful but very underated band. I don't really like 45 Grave, it's not my thing and I'm not big into deathrock (unless it's early Christian Death ofc ).
I'm already very aware of Cocteau Twins, I really like most of their work but it should be known that not all of their music was/is Goth. In actuality, Cocteau Twins only made 2 Goth albums and those were 1983's "Head Over Heels" and 1984's "Treasure" (though not all the songs on this album are Goth as some were Dream Pop). "The Pink Opaque" is their compilation / Greatest hits album and it comprised of their popular songs from their first 3 albums so you're hearing Post Punk, Goth, and Ethereal Wave (Sub-genre of Goth).
I checked out The Sound and they sound nice. Good solid Post-Punk, liked the song "Sense of Purpose". I'll check more of their stuff out. As for Deathrock, I personally like 45 Grave but that's just me lol If you're looking to try some more Deathrock, check out these songs.
~ Blood Dead & Sexy - "Sick Six Minutes"
~ Fangs on Fur - "Snake"
~ The Wraith - "Wing of Night"
~ Voodoo Church - "Zombie A Go-Go"
@@KaiDecadence idk, Garlands also sounds pretty goth to me (more post punk influenced), Treasure is more dream pop (I still love it tho). I know Fangs On Fur and it's not really my thing but I'll check out other bands when I find some spare time.. anyway, thanks for the recommendations.
@@SWilde-ws9qg Hm I hadn't actually listened to Garlands in awhile so I listened to a few songs from it and yeah, that's fair. Some of the songs on there do sound more Goth rock like "But I'm Not", "Blood Bitch", "Shallow Then Halo", and "Grail Overfloweth". So yeah, fair point, it wasn't just a straight up Post-Punk album. As for "Treasure", yeah it's not a full on Goth album as it had some Dream Pop songs which played a factor considering that their follow up album Victorialand removed the Goth sound and stayed in the Dream Pop genre of music.
I can't love this video more, Kai! Extremely well said, explained, and delivered. Also.... little your animated self is adorable!
Aw thanks a lot, I'm glad you enjoyed! :D
I totally LOVE this video. You are so on point! Nice breakdown, for sure! xo
Thanks! :D
With gothic metal, I think it really depends on what bands you’re talking about. Bands like moonspell, type o negative, crematory, 69 eyes and theatre of tragedy are definitely inspired by goth music. Yes, they are metal bands first and foremost, but saying that these bands have nothing to do with goth music whatsoever is just not true. Moonspell and type o for example are heavily inspired by the sisters of mercy and fields of the nephilim, while crematory basically sounds like a metal version of bands like diary of dreams and London after midnight.
Then there’s bands like cradle of filth and septic flesh. They’re often labelled as gothic metal because they write dark, heavy, theatrical music with lyrics that are heavily inspired by gothic literature, but have little to no ties to goth rock.
And then there are the bands people THINK are gothic metal bands. Nightwish, epica, xandria, … basically every female fronted Symphonic metal band. They have little to nothing to do with goth music. Nightwish incorporated some gothic elements on their album “once”, but if you’re going to label them as gothic metal because of this, you might as well call them folk metal, because they use way more folk elements into their music.
But I do agree on the point that gothic metal is a subgenre of metal. It was created by bands who started to incorporate the dark and brooding atmosphere of goth music into their sound, just like thrash metal was created when bands started to combine the more complex song structures and melodies of heavy metal with the harsher, more straight forward approach of punk and hardcore.
Loving the Silent Hill 3 music in the background!
Thanks, it's pretty much my go to music lol
Exactly. This is what I've been trying to tell these "Gothic" n darkly inclined ppl tht claims to be goth. Imagine them coming into a goth club n can't enjoy the music as the only thing they share in commonwith the goth is the fashion, not the music. They will totally misfit with the actual goths.
This video is a bit old and I've come across even more misconceptions. The main thing is that these non-goths wouldn't "Gothic" neither because Gothic is just a form of literature, architect, and film, I learned that the term for people who enjoyed the Gothic medium were called "Dark Romantics". So just because someone likes dark things doesn't mean they are Gothic-inclined aka "Dark Romantics" because they'd have to enjoy Gothic Literature and/or Gothic Film. But yes the point is that Darkly-Inclined people aren't Goths because they don't like the music and if they were to go to a Goth club, they most likely wouldn't enjoy the music being played there. In fact it's people like these who started driving Goth music out of the Goth clubs during the late 90s to the early 00s when the whole Rave scene blew up and ravers started invading Goth clubs and complaining about the Goth music being played and wanted more electronic music to be played there.
@@KaiDecadence can I ask ur thoughts about the Victorian goth? I have a friend who is a Victorian goth as she claims to be. But she doesn't really listen to goth music like darkwave, postpunk etc. In fact she listens to Gothic hymn like medieval style or Victorian orchestra/piano. Is this considered a goth? she sounds gothic-inclined person to me but still they look great in those style
@@Haemogobleen Victorian Goth is another style that has been misappropriated. If you want to hear the blunt honest truth, "Victorian Goth" is not a real thing, at least in the sense that it didn't come from Goth music. There hasnt't been any Goth band that dressed in a Victorian manner and what usually happened was people confusing Romantic Goth for Victorian when they don't know what Victorian actually is (because it's more than just corsets). So no, "Victorian Goth" in all honesty is not a real thing and what you see when people do dress in Victorian fashion is just that, Victorian fashion and like your friend, these people don't tend to like or listen to Goth music and prefer classical-oriented music which makes sense because again, it's not a Goth thing, it's just a vintage thing. They like Victorian fashion but prefer it in darker colors.
So is your friend Goth? Going off what you've explained here, no she isn't. If she liked and listened to Goth music she would be but since she doesn't, she's not a Goth. Now as far as "Gothic-Inclined" goes, that really depends. Does your friend like Gothic Literature? And I mean more than Dracula because Gothic Literature is more than just that. If your friend does like Gothic Literature than she would be a "Dark Romantic"
@@KaiDecadence what u mentioned is a very nice interpretation of the Victorian goths (we kinda have the same thinking about them lol). N about my friend, yea she loves cathedral, churches, statues , medieval n Victorian history books like most Victorian goths do. She is indeed a historical-type of person
@@Haemogobleen Then yeah, assuming she's reading Gothic Literature like Turn of the Screw, Jane Eyre, Carmilla, and The Mystery of Udolpho to name a few, then she would be a text book definition of a Dark Romantic. But "Victorian Goth" is misnomer. It doesn't exist and it only came about from A), people mistaking Romantic Goth as Victorian and B), people wrongly saying that the Victorian era was a "Goth" time when it wasn't. So yeah, if you ever watch one of my future videos and I never bring up "Victorian Goth", that's because it doesn't exist. It's not an actual Goth thing, it's just Dark Victorian. Victorian clothing in black.
I'm beginning to fall deep for Coldwave.
May I ask you, what's your opinion on Cybergoth? I'm pretty sure most if not all of them consider themselfs goth, it even has goth in the name. But they don't listen to goth music (they mostly listen to trance (rave) and new/danceable post industrial music). And if you look at the history, Cybergoth is a fusion of the Raver, Rivethead and cyberpunk subcultures and has nothing to do with goth appart from some fashion ellements. If there are cybergoths reading this, please explain cause I'd love to learn more!
CyberGoth was never Goth. The honest truth about "CyberGoth" is that they were just a bunch of Ravers who started invading Goth clubs in the mid-late 90s and early 2000s and drove out the real Goths when the clubs started catering to them by playing Industrial Dance music. Industrial music was the new trendy thing in the 90s and the mainstream media was ignorantly labeling it as Goth because to the media, Black clothes/dark makeup = Goth. The fact of the matter though is that a lot of these Goth clubs simply stopped being Goth when they got overrun by the Ravers and the music sets changed from Goth Rock, Darkwave, and Deathrock to Electro-Industrial, EBM, and later added Futurepop and Aggrotech. But these Ravers thought that the fact that they were in a "Goth" club, that made them Goth and thus "CyberGoth" became a thing but the honest truth was that CyberGoth was never Goth to begin with, it was actually an Industrial thing, specifically Industrial dance music.
The music associated with CyberGoth was Electro-Industrial, Futurepop, Aggrotech, and Dark Electro, all sub-genres of Industrial music, not Goth. So yeah long story short, CyberGoth is not Goth, it's actually a misappropriated term that stuck around for so long because of ignorance and misinformation about what Goth really was during the 2000s.
i LOVE Nosferatu and i love love love this other band called Two Witches, their album Vampire's Kiss is my favorite. i love Darkwave, Death rock, Goth-a-Billy, all kinds of goth music, all kinds of Metal music, and all kinds of industrial music.
Nosferatu are pretty great and I just got into Two Witches as well, have a few songs on my playlist. And yes, music si great but all I say is don't mix up Industrial and Metal with Goth because they aren't the same and really never were haha.
Thanks for the listing of 90s goth bands. This expands my goth library. My 80sgoth listing was getting lonely 😂 Thanks for making this vids. Learning more from your vids. 🖤🖤🖤
You're very welcome :) I've also made some music playlists and have made a ton of different Goth themed ones from time 80s, 90s, 00s, and present time to the 5 different subgenres of Goth and so on so feel free to check those out if you're looking to add more music to your library :)
@@KaiDecadence thank you thank you 🖤🖤🖤
Kai, you're absolutely right! It boggles my mind on how this is still being debated by some people.
Yep, it really shouldn't be a thing at this point in time when it's obvious what the answer is.
Authentic Goth muzic iz gorgeous.
Darkwave is my favorite 🖤
I love your Channel. Your the best educater and teacher ever.
Aw thanks! xD
I love you so much!!!!!! This video... again. BRILLIANT ††
Aw thank you, same to you :)
Love the video! You explained and laid everything out very well. 😊
Thanks a bunch!
the Goth subculture comes down to the music, but a lot of people disagree on what may constitute as Goth music. I guess it'll be that way forever, unfortunately.
Yeah you may be right that even mentioning the music will always be thought of as controversial when it's not but I'll continue to stand firm on my beliefs.
I also wish people would get that it's okay to not fit the label of Goth. I never got why people so desperately ached to be called Goth. Nothing wrong with just being darkly inclined :/
Pretty much agree
You got my like at the first seconds of the video! Goth is music 🖤
I'm glad you enjoyed the video, thanks!
And yes absolutely Goth is Music.
I do agree that there is a vast amount of goth music styles. I am an aged goth and whilst I love the Sisters etc I adore bands such as Suspiria, Paralysed Age, LAM whom I discovered through TH-cam and thanks to guys like you! x
Right on, yeah I tend to like a lot of the second wave Goth music more than the first wave but in the end, all of it is pretty good. :)
Thanks!
Great video! I love how you kept things positive and focused on recommending bands; way more helpful than just listing off bands that aren't goth. I'll be linking this vid for my friends getting into the subculture! (Also, your cartoon self is so cute. Do you do the art yourself?)
Thanks a lot! And yep, it was drawn by myself :)
Well Kai at least you're honest about it respect , great video 🙂👍
I don't care if someone says I can ONLY listen to goth music. No one's gonna stop me from listening to David Bowie! 😂
Okay? Where did I say that you can't listen to other kinds of music? I never said you have to only listen to Goth music to be a Goth. I said that in order to be a Goth, you have to at least like Goth music in ADDITION with the other music you like. You can go from David Bowie to Sisters of Mercy to Britney Spears to She Past Away and you would still be Goth because you like Goth music in addition to other non-Goth music.
I love the goth music of the 1980s! it's my favorite kind of goth music and I will always love those bands! I do like goth bands of today as well. like placebo and artist like Imax. but I will always be about those 1980s bands.❤💟🌛
Can't go wrong the 80s even though I steer more towards the 90s stuff like Suspiria, Miranda Sex Garden, and Love Like Blood. Though to point out something, Placebo isn't a Goth band, they're Alternative Rock (just darker like a band like Smashing Pumpkins or Interpol). Same with Imax, just another Alternative band (loved Chris' work with the Sneaker Pimps
Like the video and I love all the generations of goths music from Christian death 80’s And after the 80’s which is garden of delight think they are after the 80’ s , gothic sex , Lycia , switch blaze symphony
I started in the 2000 adapting to goth music and other gene that falls under the umbrella to goth like death rock. Before goth music I am originally listened to metal and still do. But claim myself as a goth because I love, listen and if there a band playing in the area I support the scene.
That's awesome, thanks for sharing. :)
I don't hear you talking about Gothabilly or Neoclassical darkwave in a more in-depth perspective.
I'm assuming you're talking about my "What is Goth music?" video right? Well to answer, it's because Neoclassical Darkwave is a fake genre. It's actually not a thing at all and most bands labeled that are just Neoclassical or Dark Ambient bands and those subgenres of music are not Goth music. As for "gothabilly", I came to learn that it really isn't a thing and that it's mostly psychobilly music that got wrongly called "gothabilly". "Gothabilly" isn't a music genre and it's another fake genre. I learned about this all much after I made this video.
@@KaiDecadence Well, actually, it's because you brought them up in this video and wonder why you didn't talk about them, but thanks for your answer.
So, I decided to share this video with someone, but I got called a gatekeeper for it. Some people are so thick and so stubborn that no mater how you explain it, they'll continue with their blinkers on as if we are scum elitists. Here is the link to that: th-cam.com/video/iA2_5Cn_ByY/w-d-xo.html.
You alway put a smile on my face when you make video
Aw thank you ^_^
Great video as usual but there were one or two minor innacuracies. As a fan of both goth and metal i dont care about labels i can tell you real goth metak has drawn influences from those early goth bands such as sisters and fields of the nephilim .Paradise lost singer says they were avid sisters of mercy fans and some influence is in the music.The trouble is too many bands are being labelled as goth metal when in fact they are just commercial metal. The genre has been watered down.clan of xymox are from the eighties im seeing them in 3 weeks 🕺 peace
"The trouble is too many bands are being labelled as goth metal when in
fact they are just commercial metal. The genre has been watered down."
This is why I didn't bother with the Gothic Metal thing. Yes, I am aware that some bands actually were able to fuse Gothic rock and metal together like Paradise Lost, Type O Negative, Tiamat (their middle year work), Samhain, and the first album by Within Temptation to name a few but unfortunately, every band that gets considered "Gothic Metal" is usually always a Symphonic or Black Metal band. I'll probably make a video about the few bands who did pull off the sound mix though.
And yeah I realized I dun-goofed on Clan of Xymox, my bad lol
Moonspell's work is kinda eh for me (well at least their stuff after 2001. But yeah, I can hear some Gothic rock influence in their first 2 albums.
Seriously, I don't know how to feel about videos like this. Been hanging around with goth people (and people from other subcultures as well) and this entire music debate never came up we just listened to what we liked and fitted our mood which obviously was goth rock and darkwave stuff but nobody was that obsessed with defining what goth specifically listen to. And if someone dressed goth but didn't listen to much of the music we didn't care either as long as we liked it and vibed with the person because I don't connect with people purely because of the label they give themselves idk. This entire music thing comes naturally to you the moment you hang out with goths (or any other members of music based subcultures in general) anyway and that's why I don't get why every goth on the internet is so strict and vocal about all of this. No matter what goth channel or blog I come around there's always one video talking about how important it is to listen to goth music and content wise they're literally all the same and it just feels like the video maker is trying to proof something by repeating stuff they read on the internet. Those who only do it for the looks weed themselves out anyway in my experience and if someone finds a spot in the scene where they have friends and can share their interests who am I to judge? Sure, goth is a specific thing musically and fashion wise but on the other hand: If someone cares enough to get into the scene (and by getting into the scene I mean connecting with the people and participating in events and not just dressing up) for other reasons than the music that's really on them.
These videos are meant to be educational. Mu goal with these goth videos was helping people learn what goth music is and addressing the misconceptions about the genre. That is why I take a very streamlined approach because I want people to get the straight facts about the music with no meandering nuance because unlike other genres of music, goth doesn't have that luxury for such superfluousness because it's a niche genre and in order to try and educate on it, I need to keep things straight to the point.
And I'm just telling it like it is. In order to be a goth, you have to like goth music. It doesn't have to be the ONLY music you listen to but in order to be goth, you have to have likeness for the music just like any other music-based scene. It's not complicated to understand. No one is saying that people can't like dark things or like dressing up in dark fashion but if they want to be considered "goth", they just have to have likeness for goth music alongside the other music they like. If not, then they simply aren't goths and that's fine, goth doesn't have a stranglehold on things darkly-inclined., that's the main message I try to give those who like the dark aesthetic but don't like goth music.
Does dark neoclassical music like Nox Arcana or Midnight Syndicate fall anywhere under the Goth umbrella? If it doesn't, I suppose I can't consider myself part of the subculture.
Neoclassical and Dark Ambient music is not Goth music. Goth music's origin is Post-Punk and in order for something to be a sub-genre of a genre (in this case, Goth rock), it has to use the key characteristics of what the main genre of music uses. The sub-genres of Goth are Deathrock, Darkwave, Ethereal Wave ,and Coldwave as these sub-genres use the key characteristics of the Goth genre (the Goth style guitar, "Scything Style"). Neoclassical is a sub-genre of Classical music and Dark Ambient music is a sub-genre of Industrial music and as explained in the video, Industrial music is it's own genre of music separate from Goth and so is Classical. So no, Neoclassical and Dark Ambient music which bands like Nox Arcana, Midnight Syndicate, Dark Sanctuary, and Draped in Shadows to name a few are not Goth music and liking this kind of music wouldn't make you a Goth, it would just make you a fan of classical music, albeit of a darker flavor. Hope this explanation helps.
@@KaiDecadence Okay.
That's kind of a shame, since I've identified with Goth on every other level for years. I felt like I was being excluded from a community of otherwise like-minded people because my music taste didn't match up perfectly. I asked the Lady of the Manners this same question a few years back, and she gave me the opposite response: gothic-charm-school.com/charm/?p=1091 (Then again, I've also never heard a single romantigoth say that Goth is about the music, almost always saying that it's about aesthetic and mindset, so I guess that means the entire branch should be written off.)
If darkly inclined people can't be called Goths, then should we be a separate subculture unto ourselves, one that really is based around aesthetic and mindset rather than any particular music taste (or fashion style, for that matter)? I need some community to be apart of, and if it's not Goth, what is it?
You don't own the word "gothic" or "goth". And I don't mean that you personally don't own it. I mean the goth music subculture doesn't own it. It had its history and established meaning long before goth music existed. Because of that, your proposal to use the term "darkly inclined" for people who aren't into goth music is very much unwarranted.
In the age of the internet, the music subculture is going to die off, since music doesn't seem to be a force capable of creating insulated communities anymore. Even before the internet, a lot of goths apparently got into the subculture through things other than goth rock. The aesthetics developed by the goth music subculture clearly have more staying power than the music that spawned it. If you are going to cling to the music, the things you value are going to die with it, while the subculture centered around the aesthetics will live on and flow into the more general "gothic" sensibility.
Tsk Tsk where do I even start with this. Unless you're a part of a old Germanic tribe that doesn't even exist anymore or are a fan of the music, yes the term Goth DOES apply to those involved with the music. The word was never even used again until the Post Punk style of the 70s came along.
And are you serious? The music is totally in full force if you actually get involved in the actual scene because there are plenty of Goth bands today, both old and new that are carrying on the music. Pumping out new music and touring just as much so don't come at me saying that the music is dead because that is a big lie. The music hasn't gone anywhere and it has always been here since the 80s, just underground.
Apart from the tribal union, there's the architecture, an alphabet, a type of script, the literature... i.e. a whole aesthetic sensibility and a cultural layer that hasn't gone anywhere and continues to evolve. Just because an 80s post-punk subculture adopted the term, doesn't mean they (or anyone claiming their heritage) own it now. It just means that they stated their allegiance to the aforementioned aesthetic sensibility. They are part of it, not sovereigns of it.
Regarding the music, I don't think you understood what I meant. The music will continue to be made as long as there are people enjoying it, I'm not arguing about that. However, it can't form communities the same way it did before. Before Internet, people formed social connections only through physical connections. To listen to a specific kind of music, you in most cases had to go to specific physical places where there would be other people wanting to hear the same kind of music. Music was thus a major factor in forming social connections and associations. It's not anymore. Why would a phone gazer choose to tie his identity to a particular piece of music he liked over any other piece of music he liked? Unless the music itself has the power to draw similar people together and be the basis of informal connections, it's not going to happen. Considering a lot of goths got into the subculture through different kinds of music, or got into the music after they got into the subculture, it doesn't look like goth rock has that power. The goth aesthetic however clearly does.
@@kaktotak8267 Again, Gothic =/= Goth And before Goth came from the music, it was not a subculture nor a way of life, it was just a descriptor and "Goth" didn't resurge until The Post-Punk movement.
Furthermore, Goths are still talking about the music today online. I don't know what you're talking about, I'm in 2 online Goth groups and the music is shared, discussed, and talked about on the daily. New Bands being shown every few weeks while talking about our favorite older bands or their songs.
And uh yes? Do you not go to Goth clubs? Proper Goth nights play Goth music which helps out wanderers or newcomers who attend them and thus, it only continues the cycle of Goth music reaching people.
And you asking "Why would a phone gazer choose to tie his identity to a particular piece of music he liked over any other piece of music he liked"
Um, have you seen the Metal subculture? Goth is no different than that. The only difference is that there are tons of posers (no other way to say it) who think that because they like to dress in black clothes or extreme makeup or in recent years, look like an Instagram Witch, it makes them Goth when the reality is that they aren't.
You didn't create a new concept by removing the adjective suffix. That's not how languages work.
And you still seem to be missing the point I'm making about the relation between music and subculture. Social networks are a thing now. Finding any kind of music in a couple clicks is a thing now.
Metal and goth are not at all the same here. With metal, the fans are called after the music, with goths it's the other way around. The ONLY defining characteristic of a metalhead is love for the music. All the gatekeeping in metal happens over which music is "true metal". Gatekeeping among goths happens over which elements of the subculture should be adhered to. And considering a lot of goths only got acquainted with goth rock AFTER they got into the subculture for some other reason, you don't really have a strong point here.
www.further.co.uk/blog/the-death-of-subculture-part-4-the-changing-role-of-music-and-clothing/
Neurofunk is a subgenre of drum n bass and techstep not industrial if I remember. I may be wrong, overall you hit on the head and got it into the wall.
Oh wow, thanks for the heads up.
@@KaiDecadence No problem
Instantly clicked the like button for the Silent Hill 3 music, i love that franchise. Anyway, great video!
I actually use the song a lot xD
Thanks!
Goth culture is more than the music and the way one dresses. It is more about being a deathling, death friendly, and gothic horror books. Love all baby bats, yet everyone needs elders this how we nurture and grow a community.
Goth is not a culture though, it's a 𝗦𝘂𝗯𝗰𝘂𝗹𝘁𝘂𝗿𝗲 and I'm sorry but it's just the truth that it is music-based. There was no Goth scene before Goth music was a thing. Goth & Gothic are not the same neither. Goth is a music genre (and word to describe fans of the genre) while Gothic is a literary term and in the case of music, ANY genre can be Gothic. Kate Bush's "Wuthering Heights" based on the book would be considered a Gothic song but it's not a Goth song to give an example.
I think you said you have been into goth for ten years or more were there other subculture or music that was or is Your interest ?
So I got into Goth around 2009 so prior to that, I wasn't really a part of another subculture, I was just generally alternative, listening to any rock/alternative that played on my local radio station or caught on the FUSE channel lol I still listen to the stuff today when I'm not listening to Goth music.
I love Nosferatu!
They're pretty great, a nice 90s gothic rock band
Nice video kai! I really like your reasonings behind your stance, and I agree with your statements.
Thanks!
I'm a big fan of progressive metal and progressive rock, as well as classical music, so I was wondering if you have any recommendations for heavily instrumental and/or experimental goth music? The only goth band that I know I love is The Cure, all the others I've looked into have not really been so interesting that I'd listen to them on a regular basis (minus maybe London After Midnight).
it might help to mention that I prefer melodic music to rhythmic music
Well that's the thing when it comes to genres, you're going to hear familiar patterns and instrumentation in them. I'm not really sure what to recommend because I genuinely like the characteristics found in Goth rock & Darkwave but I guess I'll try. Some of my favorites other than London After Midnight
- Fields of The Nephilim
- She Past Away
- Miranda Sex Garden
- Voodoo Church
- Love Like Blood
- Paralysed Age
- Bella Morte
- Clan of Xymox
- Diva Destruction
@@KaiDecadence Thanks!
bless emoji hands. this was succient to the point, detailed organized, really really awesome. i love it....
Haha glad you enjoyed :)
Just an FYI, Xymox have been around since the early 80's. You listed them as a band that came out after the 80's.
Scott Klein what i was thinking a lot of people dont know this their earlier stuff is best☺
They're amazing. They really blew up here in the 90s when Darkwave started becoming more prominent on the dance floors.
Haha yeah I noticed I done goofed with them when I re-watched the video lol My bad haha
i actually gooffed on this when i showcased clan of xymox too, but i was actually reading off the wiki..there is misinformation on their offical info sites and i think that's also kinda the problem too. i had to do some more research to find they actually were the same time as the other more popular ones.
Yeah as I was preparing for the video, I did read that Clan of Xymox did have an album in 1987 I think but I forgot when I got around to writing the script lol
the only thing I disagreed is that I do consider industrial part of goth music. it develop into it's own now, especially after NIN. but in the beginning bands like Throbbing Gristle to like Skinny Puppy and Ministry. Their sound have a lot of common in both sounds and theme(like can it be more goth to have a song call everyday is Halloween ).
and with Goth Metal, there are a few bands that are actually coming from goth sounds, like Lacrimosa was a band began as a goth band but moving toward metal while evolving their sounds and style. and there's Type O Negative was mixing goth and metal together, and like gothmister etc. I think the main issue with goth metal is people mixed up Symphonic metal and other rather similar style dark band that are gothic in a way but not GOTH. so I do think there is goth metal but just way less the how people labeled.
I think I just have a broader definition of Goth Music?
I vehemently disagree on the Gothminister thing, I heard a few of their songs from their albums about a year ago and I don't hear any Goth rock influence in their sound at all. No deep droning drums, no high-pitched or mellowtone bass guitar or stringy delayed drenching guitar strings. Just absolutely nothing so I definitely don't agree with that claim.
My overall thoughts on Gothic Metal that I forgot to put in the video was that there have been some band, emphasis on "some" bands that did actually blend genuine Gothic Rock with Metal. Paradise Lost... Well their first few albums, The "Aegis" album of Theatre of Tragedy, Tiamat, Samhain, and Type O Negative's work. But the point I was trying to make is that while yes there have been a few bands that actually genuinely blended actual Gothic Rock and Metal together, they were a scathingly small amount and unfortunately, way too many Metal bands being labeled as "Gothic Metal" in the form of blending Gothic Rock & Metal are nothing by Symphonic and Black metal bands. I was actually going to address this in another video I have coming up but well, here's a sneak peak lol
As for Industrial, I again have to disagree. Like I mentioned in the video, Industrial had nothing to do with Goth or even Punk and really did come from Electronic & Noise music. Industrial has always been it's own thing as it housed it's own many different sub-genres just like Goth did (like I showed in the music chart). Rivetheads was the term used to describe the fans of Industrial music. Just because the Industrial look was dark didn't mean it came directly from the Goth subculture. On the "Everyday is Halloween" claim, yeah I'm sorry but I never bought into the whole "Halloween is a Goth holiday" thing. To me, Halloween is not a Goth holiday. It's A Pagan holiday sure, but Paganism is not a Goth thing.
Now to be fair, I could understand why some would think Industrial music came from Goth when you listen to a band like Skinny Puppy who's singing style definitely felt like t was meant for Gothic rock sound at the time but the sound structure just takes way more influence from Electronic and Synth of that time (talking about their 80s work).
But see, while Goth and Industrial are not the same thing, the music is enjoyed by both parties and that's why a lot of people consider Industrial, at least the older stuff a close relative of Goth. Like a sister style. And Goths and Rivetheads tend to enjoy each others music in the same that a Classic Rock fan tend to enjoy Rockabilly music.
I hope this helps explain things. It's just the way I personally see things really.
I really enjoyed this video. ^^ It was easy to follow and you articulated everything very well. I know some people make a distinction between goth and gothic and while I do understand where they're coming from, I just don't see those ideas catching on on a larger scale. I think the terms have been used interchangeably for so long now it's become very ingrained. And darkly inclined.. it doesn't really roll off the tongue easily and I would feel a little bit pretentious describing myself like that personally. xD
All that aside though I loved all the bands you recommended! It does get really repetitive seeing the same 5 bands recommended over and over again in videos. Maybe the new protocol should be if they're listed on wikipedia, don't list them in a video. I'm sure everyone who looks up goth has read the wikipedia articles anyway haha. List other bands. xp
Well that's why I said "Gothic" or "Alternative" could be used as well if Darkly Inclined was too much lol My point is that for me, I will never conflate a Goth and a Gothic person the same, especially after all the research I've done haha.
As for the bands, I have a ton in the library and believe me, I anticipated some people may get irritated hearing the same bands over and over again but I was nervous that if I included more obscure bands, a lot of watchers wouldn't understand where I was coming from so I caved lol But I'll keep that in mind for next time haha.
Yeah, I understand! And I meant just goth youtubers in general always listing the same staple bands over and over. xp I think it was totally necessary you listed them in this video. You're all good with your band recommendations. Lots to check out. ^^
Ah okay lol Yeah, I tried to mix both really. That's why I named some staple bands like The Cure, Siouxsie, Sisters of Mercy, etc but I also tried to show some other bands like Diva Destruction, Fields of the Nephilim, London After Midnight, and Bella Morte to name a few. Granted they were just featured as Albums but still haha.
love your stuff dude!!
Thanks!
Great video I have learnt a lot thanks 😀❤️😀 could you make some more videos please
Thanks lol
Asking more for clarification than to be antagonistic, but how is the 80s Goth Elitist example that different from your statement that music based on electronic and not post-punk (i.e. industrial) is not goth? Does this mean that you don't believe cybergoths are legitimate goths? Does synthpop, EBM and Aggrotech not count as goth either?
Well I'm going to answer your question and you'll probably won't like it but it's just my honest take.
- "How is the 80s Goth Elitist example that different from your statement that music based on electronic and not post-punk (Industrial) is not Goth?"
Here's the deal. Industrial music never came from Goth, it didn't even come from Punk. It originated out of the Electronic music style along with a genre of music called "Noise". The look around the late 80s, early 90s may have looked dark but just because the look was dark didn't automatically mean it was a Goth style and the only reason that happened was because of the mainstream during the mid 90s when the actual Goth scene started going more underground and the media painted Industrial as the new Goth when it really wasn't.
Furthermore, there was an electronic synth style that came from Goth and that was Darkwave & Coldwave music. Those was the genre that took the Gothic rock sound and added in more synthesizers to make it sound more digitized and dance friendly.
- "Does this mean that you don't believe CyberGoths are legitimate Goths?"
Me personally, the style itself? No, I don't consider it a "Goth" style. The actual background of the CyberGoth was mainly from the Raver and Industrial scenes. I'm convinced that the only reason it got called a "Goth" style was again, the mainstream media as at the time, they were deeming any musician or person who was wearing dark colors were a Goth. I mean, taking account what Cyber was made up by, it drew influence from militant look (Industrial) and sexy (Raver club girl). So no, I don't consider it a "Goth" style but I do consider it a part of the Industrial scene.
- "Does synthpop, EBM and Aggrotech not count as goth either?"
Again, no I wouldn't consider those styles as Goth styles. However, at least with Synth Pop anyway, considering how a lot of Goths tend to like 80s music, I've always considered it more of a "Goth-friendly" style of music. EBM & Aggrotech fall under the Industrial subgenre camp as their stylistic origins take from Industrial.
I hope this answers your question. :)
As I said before, I was just asking for clarification and I'm not trying to start anything. I haven't been in the goth scene long enough to really have a concrete opinion on these things, so that's why I'm curious to learn other people's takes. I do, however, based on my own research, agree that goth is a music based subculture. It just seems that what constitutes as goth music (outside of the well established 80s post punk bands) is still up for debate. As The Count from Cemetery Confessions points out, goth is a scene that is continually questioning and defining itself and not everyone agrees. That's part of what I find so fascinating and invigorating (at least when the debates are cordial and not just flat out arguments). Now I'd be really interested to hear the opinion from people who are in the gothic metal and cybergoth subcultures who are also well versed in the history of these musical movements as to whether they can be included in "goth."
I understand. Like I said in the video, I've been learning about the subculture for 8 going on 9 years and I finally came to my final conclusion last year in 2016. That's why I included my bits of the Goth sub-genres of music to help show people that 80s Post Punk was not the only type of Goth music offered as it was used in other sounds such as the synth-based style of Darkwave & Coldwave music to the mixing of putting more emphasis on the punk and heavier rock side creating Deathrock and soothing, ethereal chill vibes of Ethereal wave.
Like I said in the video, the people who believe that only 80s Post Punk is Goth music, they're just being 1980s snobs who can't accept that the foundational sound was also used to create other styles such as the ones I outlined earlier.
But if all else, I hope that the video and my explanations helped a bit lol
DeeDee Blackwater Personally, I and many others do consider Cyber a part of the goth subculture. It has grown and intertwined together, especially in Western Europe where the movement began (I know it began in England, but it has really taken off in Germany!). If you hear any live music playing in a club nowadays, you do hear EBM, Trance, as well as synth and ethereal. Goth has evolved, so whether or not it has roots to the original music shouldn't matter, because it is widely accepted in the community. That being said, the vocal styles of either is similar. The low, almost robotic, monotonous tone being almost drowned out with the instruments (I'm sure plenty of new artists are very much inspired by the classic eighties bands).
The sub genre argument has been going on since music even existed ( in all genres ) , good job with the video , I do understand there is a need for sub genres, but on the other hand , some sub genres exist just for the sake of it , I think every New generation likes to ( Frankly ) make up sub genres to make them feel like its their own . Somoene needs to do a video on , not the music or fashion , but actual History , as in 12th century Gothic era , because I doubt very seriously the people that existed back then wasn't Listening to The Cure or Bauhaus .............Well, maybe The cure ,but that's it ( ha ha )
That's why I say time and again that there is a difference between a Goth and a Gothic Inclined person. "Goth" didn't become a thing until the 70s music scene (and yes, I know about the Visigoth tribe but they have nothing to do with the subculture). Gothic inclined people have always been arounf since the 12th century as these people were the ones who were doing the Gothic art subjects of paintings, architecture, and later on in the mid 1700s+, Literature.
And on the sub-genre thing, I do think the common ones highlighted in the video are legitimate and they do help people find a particular sound that derived from the general Goth sound. But I will agree that I have seen some waird genres that totally were made up lol
I completely agree with you! :)
Glad you enjoyed :)
I do and now realize what musically pure Goth, and I can clearly see what iz in itz purest forms. Having able to distinguish this now I know that pure Goth can't be industrial, but Goth industrial iz a hybridized form of Goth fused heavy intense music, so what if itz not pure Goth I'll get over it.
Yeah no, I should've explained more in the industrial thing but frankly, every time I hear a band someone calls "Goth Industrial" and I give it a listen, I hear absolutely no Goth traits in it at all. I'm going to expand more on this in another video coming soon but all I say is that it's nonsense.
Well said Kai! I love you and your videos! Thank you!
Aw thank you ^-^
It doesn't quite seem to me that "darkly inclined" is a thing. I don't really see people referring to themselves as that. It's rather just a throwaway label goths made up to get rid of people who don't listen predominantly to goth music.
Gatekeeping your scene is one thing. You absolutely have a right to reclaim the goth label from people who use it erroneously. But they don't have to accept your made-up "darkly inclined" label either.
None of this would be happening if you hadn't appropriated a term that used to stand for a centuries old traition of romantic literature in the first place. That's why you have such a problem with "posers" while metal, for instance, does not. And no, the distinction between "goth" and "gothic" doesn't really work here.
"Darkly-Inclined" has been a descriptor phrase for quite some time and just because you don't care for it doesn't take away it's validity and that it does have a true meaning. It's true that it's started being used more in the last few years as a counter to people calling themselves "goth" when they really aren't. The other and more popular word that was used in place of darkly-inclined was "alternative" but darkly-inclined caught on more because a lot of people in the alternative people tend to like things considered dark so really they can be interchangeable, especially since both go against mainstream.
The simple fact of the matter is that goth is and always has been a 𝐦𝐮𝐬𝐢𝐜-𝐛𝐚𝐬𝐞𝐝 scene and that without the music, there would be no goth period.
> 𝙉𝙤𝙣𝙚 𝙤𝙛 𝙩𝙝𝙞𝙨 𝙬𝙤𝙪𝙡𝙙 𝙗𝙚 𝙝𝙖𝙥𝙥𝙚𝙣𝙞𝙣𝙜 𝙞𝙛 𝙮𝙤𝙪 𝙝𝙖𝙙𝙣'𝙩 𝙖𝙥𝙥𝙧𝙤𝙥𝙧𝙞𝙖𝙩𝙚𝙙 𝙖 𝙩𝙚𝙧𝙢 𝙩𝙝𝙖𝙩 𝙪𝙨𝙚𝙙 𝙩𝙤 𝙨𝙩𝙖𝙣𝙙 𝙛𝙤𝙧 𝙖 𝙘𝙚𝙣𝙩𝙪𝙧𝙞𝙚𝙨 𝙤𝙡𝙙 𝙩𝙧𝙖𝙞𝙩𝙞𝙤𝙣 𝙤𝙛 𝙧𝙤𝙢𝙖𝙣𝙩𝙞𝙘 𝙡𝙞𝙩𝙚𝙧𝙖𝙩𝙪𝙧𝙚 𝙞𝙣 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙛𝙞𝙧𝙨𝙩 𝙥𝙡𝙖𝙘𝙚
That's because it's not true. "Goth" is not a short abbreviation for "Gothic" and side from the ancient Germanic tribes that used the term in it ("Ostrogoths", "Visigoths", "Crimean Goths"), the term was not used again until the late 70s when the goth genre and music scene kick-started and the genre title stuck with it. Prior to that, "goth" and "gothic" were not the same. For example Gothic literature was never called "Goth literature" nor was Gothic architecture called "Goth architecture".
@@KaiDecadence Fair enough.
I would nonetheless advise you to think a bit more about the unintended consequences of your stance. Especially since I know you to be politically reasonable.
You wanted to keep the gothic mindset out and have the goth subculture be about music only. And you succeeded. But guess what? That philosophical void is now being filled by SJWs inserting their ideology. And most of the scene is buying into or at least accepting it.
@@edgyintellect177 It's not about philosophy though, it's just frank truth. Before goth music came out, there was no "goth scene" period. There have been darkly-inclined people for centuries whereas goth has only been around for like 42 years now as of 2022 and darkly-inclined people have thrived without having specific music since it's an interest in a type of tone and aesthetic. When goth came around, it did attract darkly-inclined people but the music is what started the goth scene and has always been the focus despite what the mainstream media's bastardization of it in the 1990s-2000s. The reason why people like me bring the distinction up is because it's important for people to know that
1). Goth doesn't have a stranglehold on all things dark.
2). You don't have to be goth to like dark things.
That's just all there is to it. As for the SJW thing, political ideology is just that, an ideology. In the case of goth it doesn't define the scene.
@@KaiDecadence false, goth music and the related aesthetic birthed the mindset and philosophy before 90s misappropriation and it revolves around SPECIFIC darkly inclined themes NOT anything dark there was a never subculture or movement based around selective darkly inclined things together or collectively with a philosophical outlook except goth, maybe the decadent movement which goth the modern subculture has taken done influence from, liking all things dark outside of goth is very recent thing and is a result of emo and internet and pop culture misappropriating and extracting goth it is usually shallow, limited, short lived and inconsistent, it was uncommon and obscure and still mostly inconsistent in the past, ex liking dark movies and poster art. it was/is incredibly rare to find someone being truely, deeply and consistently darkly inclined across multiple aspects at any point especially before the mid 2000s . Rewriting goth as nothing but music + fashion should be considered a crime, it was acceptable maybe in 1979-1984 to some degree to think that …you must be shallow and rigid. A bunch of normie music fans covert narcissists can’t change goth.
It’s clear you guys are trying to subvert the narrative since 15-16.
You do have real goth metal bands.
Great video 👍🏼
Glad you enjoyed!
The problem with your argument is that you never explain how "non-goth" bands don't "take inspiration from goth" or why a synthesis can't happen.
What do you mean? Like General Dark alternative bands? I figured it was kinda implied but I'm planning on making a video to go in depth with music examples so just stay tuned for that.
Kai herez an honest response by me, no there iz no Goth without the music 🎶.
What bands would you recommend for coldwave or neoclassical darkwave?
Upon certain inspection with Neoclassical Darkwave, it's not really a genre... A lot bands labeled as such are just simply neoclassical. As for Coldwave, there are Asylum Party, Lebanon Hanover, Kas Product, Norma Loy, and Love is Colder Than Death
@@KaiDecadence Thank you, I'll give it a listen
Goth are the best
I was kinda an elitist jerk about six years ago. Awesome video by the way. I agree with everything you said.
An 80s Elitist?
Kai Decadence I guess you can say that. I always did enjoy modern Goth Rock and Deathrock bands though. I always told people that if Goth or Deathrock isn’t your preference than you’re not it.
@@justinosborne5280 Oh I see. Well I mean still, you have to have enjoyment for the genre otherwise it's like calling yourself a Metalhead when you don't listen to Metal. But yeah, it doesn't have to be the primary thing of course.
I’m new. Here and subscribed and tbh
What about the opposite? I have a very mainstream look but I love goth, aggrotech, industrial, heavy metal, etc.
I'm sorry, what exactly are you asking? I don't fully understand your question.
Kai Decadence Sorry, what I mean is that, is goth a state of mind as well as a fashion/lifestyle? i dress conservately for my profession but I've been listening to gothic music since my teenage years. I guess, outwardly I dont appear goth but I still go to shows, have gothy friends and listen to the music.
Ah okay. Well to answer your question. "Is Goth a state of mind?" Honestly I don't think it is. I do think that there could be a darkly inclined mindset that a lot Goths happen to have but it really just comes down to the music because without the music, there really wouldn't be any subculture. The fashion has it's place but it's not a necessity. And this leads into the other question that yes, one can still be Goth even if they don't dress darkly inclined. So long as the individual enjoys actual Goth music, I think they are still Goth.
Without having watched this video, who's the woman in your user photograph and the still image for this video? Cos doesn't sound like it's you.
my favs are dark wave and synth pop!
Darkwave is just too good but Synth Pop, that's not a Goth genre just to point that out. Just a great genre of the 80s and beyond hehe.
ok cool but they always play these bands at the dark goth parties I go to!
I will forever love Siouxsie Sioux and the Banshees and Depeche Mode! Goths love them though! lol
If you can't at least appreciate 80's gothic rock, your not Goth
edward pinkney I respectfully disagree. 80s Goth rock isn't really for everyone so that's why I don't think it's necessary so long as you like or enjoy 90s goth rock or 00s goth rock. It's really all the same.
I don't agree with one thing, goth industrial iz in fact a form of goth.
NO, it really isn't and a simple research on the genre would show you why. There is no such thing as "Goth industrial". Goth has always been Goth with it's few sub-genres and Industrial has always been Industrial with it's own sub-genres/derivative genres.
I know this is an old comment but, actually no, Industrial existed before goth. It has a different origin, techniques, ideology and subcultures (goth music -> goth, (post)industrial music -> rivethead). Just because a lot of the industrial music you hear at clubs can be simmilar to goth or synthpop doesn't mean its the same. For example, powerelectronics (industrial subgenre) sounds nothing like goth at all.
Liked! Great video.
Thanks!
The Goth subculture without the music doesn't make sense. One can dress Gothic and be Gothic without the music, but you can't be Goth without the music, or else you'd be a poser
Well actually even with "Gothic", there is a certain criteria that needs to be made for that and that is that the person has to have interest in Gothic Literature &/or Gothic Film. It's been a long while since I did this video but over time I learned that even "Gothic" has been misconstrued, almost just as much as Goth has and that Gothic is not a catch-all term for anything dark. So in order for one to be truly "Gothic-inclined", they have to at least be interested in the literature and/or film that the literary genre (because that's what Gothic is) is centered around just like how Goth is centered around music.
@@KaiDecadence well...yes. You're right about that too 😅🖤
i want you to be my teacher xD
Haha oh my lol
Extreme metal is not a genre of metal just so you know.
Er okay lol
Kai Decadence it's used to group black, doom, death, and thrash together. Kind of like Viking metal is used to group bands that have lyrics about Vikings.
Makes more sense. I only grouped them as such because every time I ever called Cradle of Filth "Black Metal", I'd get a slew of comments disagreeing.
Yes you can be considered as a goth with out listing to gothic rock or gothic music the original term for goth is visigoths so if you live the way they lived and speek their language germanic or gothic language you can be considered as a goth you don't have to listen to the music but to be considered as a goth in the subculture you need to like the music if you only like the fashion and the dark things then your a gothic person not a goth.
the point about Gothic Metal not being goth _IS_ contentious, particularly the likes of Type O Negative which very much embodies the spirit of goth. also Love Metal like HiM is still considered goth by a number of us. however i agree that those who _only_ like such bands which arguably run tangential or p'haps are on the "outer ring" of the goth ""Venn diagram"" (just to textualize a visual), are correspondingly on the fringe of goth inclusion and have alt or darkly-inclined leanings in something of a percentage
there's so much about the other delicious goth music types (darkwave, synthpop, post-punk in particular
also want to say that it's so incredibly inspiring to see how tightly-knit the goth youtube scene is, at least on this topic! all the peeps who's points i really admire are all in one place in the comment section of a video w/ approx. 1.5k views, on a channel with 2.2k (at the time of this writing)... how down-to-earth we all are is breathtaking! i love us!!!
Gothic Metal is just such a disingenuous term these days because the average band who gets labelled as such don't have ANY Gothic rock, post-punk, or darkwave sound at all. It's nothing but straight up heavy metal mixed with Doom, Death, or Symphonic Metal. I am fully aware that there are some, extra big emphasis on SOME bands that actually did blend genuine actual Gothic rock with Metal like Samhain, Paradise Lost, the "Aegis" album from Theatre of Tragedy, and yes, a few Type O Negative albums along with an album from Goth band Dreadful Shadows who took their Gothic rock sound and mixed it with Metal for an album. But I decided not to include it here because of the fact that so many bands labeled "Gothic Metal" are not Goth in the slightest because they don't take any of the sound at all. But I'll make a video on Gothic Metal and try to set the record straight on it.
As for HIM, I don't think "Love Metal" is an actual thing, just a word they used to describe themselves to make them stand out but frankly I find the term ridiculous. Anyway, yeah I know that HIM's earlier stuff sounded more Gothic rock until about 2004 with the album Dark Light which was more darker styled alternative rock in a similar way to the Ava Adore era of The Smashing Pumpkins.
And yeah we have a word for non-Goth bands that tend to appeal to some Goths. We call them Goth-friendly bands. Not Goth bands in the slightest but they have a sound that some Goths do enjoy but just because a Goth likes a non-Goth band doesn't make the band themselves Goth is all. And these people who don't like any kind of actual Goth music but just darker alternative bands, they're just Darkly inclined people.
And I think it's because not everyone is into rock-sounding music lol
even some earlier Pumpkins, which was really shoegaze but which in my mind runs tangential to goth as well, are pretty goth in a lot of aspects! Corgan himself identified as a "goth boy", tho admittedly much of their sound isn't even shoegaze. anyway, yeah likely love metal is HiM exclusive, but you sound elitist when you ridicule it. i was just bringing in a genre, whether they coined it or what-have-you, because i was talking about genres ...you were talking about genres... there we go
honestly i don't need the lecture on what are non-goth bands or goth-friendly... almost certainly i was listening to many of these bands before you were out of grade school. also don't need your lecture on darkly-inclined as, if you'll expand my comment above, i actually used the term myself
i don't profess to know everything about every goth music type, band, or album. but it would feel better to not be talked down to by someone who's supposed to be my sibling in the dark. if anything i'm your older sister here ;p
Mmm sure but Shoegaze really is it's own thing as It's really just another alternative rock genre that took inspiration from Indie rock, Alternative, dream pop, and neo-psychedelia. And I can see Billy Corgan listening to some Post-Punk , it seems right up his alley with how popular it was in the 80s though looking at his listed influences he's shared, seems like he was all about 90s alternative rock or some classic hard rock.
And I'm not talking down to you. I'm just very straightforward with certain things and Goth is one of them since I put so much time looking into the music and want to help stave off the misappropriation the genre has gotten in the last decade and a half so if it came off like that, I apologize.
But any case, that was the main reason why I didn't bother with Gothic Metal as I want to make a separate video for that topic.
thanks for the apology... because i love the core of our genres so much, i don't feel the least bit uncomfortable discussing what's really 'fringe' and what may actually have more "goth in it" than ppl presently give credit. i don't believe that goth music is a static thing... instead i find it to be amorphous in some respects. there will always be some genres under the rock umbrella which will never BE goth, and i fully accept that. i've done a fair amount of research into goth music types as well just to see how i'm feeling may align with how others are feeling. i can tell you that i've definitely seen more than one youtuber call HiM and Type O unequivocally GOTH music, _and_ i've also seen like an 'infographic' which sought to label those who appreciate HiM as the sort of tunes baby bats listen to. this seems elitist to me IMO, particularly when, like you rightly pointed out, some early jams of theirs (think Join Me in Death and Killing Loneliness) really scream goth to me at a vibratory level
i will always believe you have to like goth music to be goth, it's something which is the core of how we're 'shaped' (so to speak) and bleeds its way into our personalities which we find urges us on to explore our outward appearance. i've already listed such inarguable genres earlier, and love them dearly. such an understanding of oneself wrought by what we listen to yields something inherent and non-transferrable (is the best way i can sum it up) ...i'm of course not writing this to lecture _you_ on such things, and am instead describing the experience from whence i came
that^ being said, i am one to cheerfully & dynamically embrace changes and "upgrades" to our understandings of what it means to BE us, and this includes taking a sharper and more fine-grained look at various sounds to see "wait, what? am i hearing goth here?!" and then following up on such notions with an open mind. not so open that we wander into Myley Cyrus and Lady Gaga putting out goth music, but just like you and I pointed out earlier: certain periods of time for _some_ groups actually yielded what _some_ of us believe is goth music. hell, you're prolly aware of the time when Clan of Xymox was 'Xymox' ..some goths believe this period of time to be when they "sold out and became a dance club band". my feeling is that their tunes from that time are _just_ as delicious as their 'canon' darkwave stuff, and in some cases even better
i don't care for goth music
If you don' care for Goth music, that's fine but if you're still trying to be "Goth" despite it, it doesn't work that way.
Oh geez, this is an old video, huh? Pretty typical for me -- I always come late to the party -- not to mention, my posts tend to be huge, and I guess for a lot of folks, reading is no fun. I don't know if anyone is going to reply to this, but oh well, here goes nothing...
So, you're not necessarily Gothic, but you're Goths (fans of Goth rock), right? You're music nerds. Why not go even further to emphasize this by calling yourselves Goth rockers instead of Goths? That might make things easier for you as well as us.
And there's nothing wrong at all with being music nerds. You're probably pretty nerdy in general, with a special interest in an underground genre of music. How very Autistic-like, actually. I'm not saying you're Autistic, but I'm Autistic and proud, so for me to say you're Autistic-like is a high compliment. I have no issues with you. But the Goth music subculture is different from being Gothic.
Also, you know, we all have different thoughts on things. Just like not all Christians take the Bible literally. Everyone is different, see?
And some nerd out on other things, such as Gothic aesthetics/style/fashion. Gothic style has so many different influences, when you break it down, and it keeps evolving. It's not about copying rock stars by trying to look like them. Even those rock stars were influenced by so many different things, anyway.
And some nerd out about identities and self-identity labels. You know, Gothic is a general descriptor, and you can't tell anyone how to self-identify or how to express their identity.
Gothics are no threat to your music scene. But if you try to involve us by insulting us, there will be pushback. We have an identity that is worth defending, and we can defend it just as well (if not better) as you can defend your music scene. We have a right to identify as Gothic. We're not "posers" in the least because we're not trying to be like you. Honestly, we really don't want to be like you. (I promise!) Enjoy your music-based subculture.
None of you have any authority to tell others how to identify. On the Internet, it's easy to make yourself seem "bigger" than you are. Yet I notice you're all just a small group of pretty much the same people that happen to be highly vocal.
You keep telling us how we should identify, so what's wrong with my suggestion for you?Just call yourselves Goth rockers. It describes you perfectly. It's exactly what you want, since the music is obviously the most important thing to you.
It's just a matter of respect. I respect you, and you respect me. Heck, did you know I actually really like a ton of Goth rock music? I don't know if I'd consider myself a Goth rocker though. Also, I really don't care for the whole club scene. Social group interactions really aren't my bag -- frankly, they're tedious and exhausting to me. But have a good time, all of you -- I'll seriously be rooting for you as a well-wisher in your lives.
I don't have time to reply to this comment as I'm heading for work but yes this video is old and I touch up more in this video.
> th-cam.com/video/lk_QKoWWh2E/w-d-xo.html
sorry Kai but i think eternal wynter took down her vid it's not on her channel anymore. (if that's the right person). :)
haha gothabilly i cant imagine it. lol. i'll have to give a listen. :)