I love the way you two worked together. I think you compliment each other very well and are both quite brilliant. Definitely need to do a part 2 to this one.
Thank you LML and Robert. I could listen to this stuff all day! This story never gets boring, and I particuarly enjoy the mythology and symbology ideas
So now I've had to bookmark Graham Hancock and see what that's all about! Ancient civilizations... hmm. Oh, btw, you seem to be rather tall; I can imagine you would't want vertical antlers!!
Very happy to see y’all together! Thank you both for your great work & excellent presentation. Sorry to miss this live but will be watching many times (as always).
Awesome thanks Robert and LML. Enjoyed your conversation and the way your thinking compliment each other. Hope you guys get together again in the future. Love and Hugs from South Africa ❤️💋
What an enjoyable video. I hope to one catch one live. Thanks Robert for introducing, me at least, to LML. He has some terrific knowledge and a thoughtful approach. You two are different but complement each other nicely!
You two do an awesome job. I my heart skips a beat every time John is described as a Zombie. Zombies are what the night king raises. They are mindless beings
Well, most of them are - but not Coldhands, is who is an icy undead but is not mindless, then we have Cat and Beric... And Jon is a warg, with an animal to preserve his spirit for a time when he dies, so..
I love LML, such an intelligent chap, always has really well thought out information without insane tinfoil theories up the wazoo! Thanks so much, both of you.
Ricky VanDusen - I will always only ever refer my subscribers to other content creators that I love. And LML is one of the best. Please, please check out his channel and enjoy the excellence!
Thanks for another great video, i really like your perspective on ASOIAF. And I really like LML way of thinking so.. this video just blew my mind. keep up the great work ;)
I think I remember GRRM saying that Willas Tyrell will be important in the last two books. Like Willas, who loves to watch the stars. So he seems to be into astronomy. He might be onto something here, same as you.
These amazing gentlemen pointed on the potential that Winterfell is a labyrinth and could be a Werewood Net cave. When someone in the novels first "entered" one of the direwolves they weren't actively controling it but observing but the wolf thought of Winterfell as "caves of man rock." I wonder if this is because the crypts were the most important part.
bubbahuskey - that's an interesting point. I first interpreted "caves of man-rock" to mean the buildings aboveground, but now I think it means a lot more; the whole Winterfell complex (as well as a more generic way for a wolf to view things built by men!)
In Deep Geek I always thought they just didn't understand what walls were & figured that's what it was. The only thing that gets me here is if they understand that men placed the rocks, why not understand the concept of a man's dwelling?
I put this on to sleep, went to set an alarm, and suddenly my man has busted out the horns. Would love future In Deep Geek collaborations with LmL, your brains are great together.
All the work you have done for the series is so unique and eye opening. You have reveled many secrets and an overall understanding of ASOIAF, but I think more than that, you have discovered a way (Georges way rather) that each characters arc is laid out. And now that the story makes more sense we can guess at the many paths of the future ( when expectations are subverted it will be because their are so many options). Thank you for your hard work, here's to your health! ( i can almost say this with the same intent to Robert, Different letter different day)
The dead starks rising forshadowed: arya asked if beric could bring ned back...just once. Arya might see her dad again. And Lyanna for Jon. He would finally meet one of his actual parents. I'd cry my eyes out.
Very interesting, great video! You have brought up a lot of points I’ve often considered as well. I love these videos it’s great to see many people who are as passionate about asoiaf/got as I am!
The horn broken in two makes me think about Ice being broken in two. I was bummed that I couldn't watch this luve, bit it's been great to listen to during my Saturday crochet. Hope you two get together again. You play perfectly off each other.
Rewatched this! During the live stream I was tourist’ing around San Francisco and really couldn’t make contribution to the chat! 😆 This was a fantastic stream. There's a lot I want to discuss, it's overwhelming. The idea of a mystical meteor storm is fascinating. There's a documentary about Sodom and Gomorrah that I once watched that discussed the idea of meteor storms that inspired the biblical narrative. The 'bleeding star's/red commet foreshadows more to come, I think. There's a fine line, however, to have these elements in a fantasy before it starts to turn sci fi. I don't think it's sci fi, but if dragons came from the moon, which sent meteors from the 'crack' in the moon to planetos, it can be interpreted as godly prowess, which is a great twist. It would make dragons celestial beings, that don't really belong in the ecosystem which we have seen.
I know I'm a bit late to the discussion, but I thought you Robert and you LML might find this interesting, straight from NatGeo's March 2017 cover story: "In the nearly three centuries before the raids on foreign shores began around A.D. 750, Scandinavia was wracked by turmoil, Price says. More than three dozen petty kingdoms arose during this period, throwing up chains of hill forts and vying for power and territory. In the midst of these troubled times, catastrophe struck. A vast cloud of dust, likely blasted into the atmosphere by a combination of cataclysms-comets or meteorites smashing into Earth, as well as the eruption of at least one large volcano-darkened the sun beginning in A.D. 536, lowering summer temperatures in the Northern Hemisphere for the next 14 years. The extended cold and darkness brought death and ruin to Scandinavia, lying as it did along the northern edge of medieval agriculture. In Sweden’s Uppland region, for example, nearly 75 percent of villages were abandoned, as residents succumbed to starvation and fighting. "So dire was this disaster that it seems to have given birth to one of the darkest of all world myths-the Nordic legend of Ragnarök, the end of creation and the final battle, in which all gods, all supernatural beings, and all humans and other living creatures die. Ragnarök was said to begin with Fimbulwinter, a deadly time when the sun turns black and the weather turns bitter and treacherous-events that eerily parallel the dust veil that began in 536, Price says." www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2017/03/vikings-ship-burials-battle-reenactor/
One of my favorite collabs! The astronomical theories just make so much sense. I could totally see wither Euron getting the horn from Sam while Sam is in Oldtown or Sam finding in a book something about the Horn of Winter and he realizes he has it and then stupidly brings it North or he finds out he can repair and use the horn to stop the white walkers or he thinks he can but he brings down the Wall instead. I can definitely see Sam accidentally knocking down the Wall but then he saves the day at some point. Or the Faceless Man in Oldtown finds out about the Horn and gets it from Sam and steals Sams face. Then goes North and takes down the wall if the Faceless Men want to let in the White Walkers thinking they represent their God.
Sorry for missing this live. Just caught this week's live following bread crumbs from King Robert channel to Deep Geek. LML have seen a couple of your videos but then did not get the notice bell for subscribed. Stopped this video and now have your channel subscribed right. Yeah!
Well I did a series about that called Sacred Order of Green Zombies but yeah, I think Jon will have more of himself left because he is a warg where Beric and Cat were not. His spirit will survive for a short time in Ghost, but will start to merge with him, and I actually think we will get a fused Jon-Ghost wolfman spirit sent back to his rezzed body.
Love videos from you both! Wish I could have been on for the live show but work.....quick thought I have been having about Winterfell and you both touched on it a bit. Thinking if we look at different meanings of the word "fell" could lead one to believe that it means winter evil, or something similar. So could Winterfell be a prison for winter's evil champion?
I agree regarding synonyms for 'fell', which include malevolent/cruel/betrayal. I've been fond of saying "Hot Pie got it right!!!" (Referring to when he called it Winterhell). ☺. Though actually, for the Kings of Winter waiting in the crypts, it is closer to a purgatory.
That was freaking great!! I was in a Marching Band meeting😞One of best. I'll b there Tuesday!! Have wonderful weekend!! I took Latin in High School. Don't know why!! No...really helps with words!!🐺🐉🐙🐊🌹🔥❄💗💗💗💗
Very interesting chat. Noticed the claim that the horn may be broken. Have you ever watched ‘Eric the Viking’ they have a horn that wakes the gods. It doesn’t work at first either. Watch and enjoy.
I think you are both right on the money about the army of the death the book dragonkin is an anagram for Odin krag first sounds like army of the death and the second like crag from cranogmen and I'm still decoding the one of dragons wyrms and wyverns, I only have Odin's army which are the slain the einherjar
So I’m behind the idea that the starks from the crypts will be used to fight the Others. Do you think they will retain their faculties or do you think Bran will control them? Do you think they will be able to raise wights? Would another weapon besides Bran be needed to raise wights? Like an ice Melisandre?
Oh crap .. sitting here watching this late at night and suddenly it hits me .. whenever they switch between their streams its clear that LML is a White Walker (Pale light) and now and then his voice crackles like ice (connection noises). O.o
when you watch this post end of show, and realize there were no ice spiders and your disappointment hits you all over again. damn I was just getting over that :-(
The monster trapped in winterfell: its the stone beast awakening from the prophecy. And bran is the dragon taking flight from the smoking tower.....when he fell. 😉😁
When Robert pointed out the fact that the horn is described as being broken the first thing that popped into my head was Bran. He's non stop going off about he too is broken. I think it's no coincident that he to falls from the same tower that another person fell from if I remember right either while or before the first tower was struck by lightning, and is right infront of the crypt entrance.
watched twice , great colab Robert ,hey i was rereading < gotta do something during this long night.> , any way i wanted to bring up that when Bran and co are leaving the crypts ..ok follow me.. in the crypts Brans "third eye opened " ,he reached out to Ghost / Jon { jons silent shout } while with Qhorin Halfhand .. ok so the serpent on fire is Jon when you are reading it though its half a book away so i dont think its caught thus the theory of a Dragon under Winterfell is in the forefront because of the way GRRM makes things metaphorical dragons IE so many prophetic dragon dreams {hatching eggs that = a Targ. baby is born }
As far as the statues coming to life, if it happens in the books i would love to see a moment between Lyanna's statue and jon snow. At the point maybe jon has found out about his parentage but hasnt told anyone. Lyanna's statue stands before jon and she raises a hand touches his face or something. It could be a very emotional and touching scene to have between him and his mothers soul?
1:09:00 I still disagree, there has to be a real dragon or something that came up out of Winterell when it was burned. I think the hot springs and all that either do spell out that there's a real living dragon there, or that there was at one point, but it died there, and it's heat still remained to heat the hot springs. I bet there are dragon eggs hidden in all kinds of places, and maybe some were even put there by Lyanna and Rhaegar for Jon (if he really is their son but I still have doubts), as their story seems to copy the Baal the bard story and they probably hid out in the crypts for a while when they first "ran off". Others have done videos on that as well. But back to the dragon at Wintefell: some say that it was the dragon itself that burned Winterfell so badly b/c it makes no sense for the Boltons to have burned it like that when they wanted to take it over. The book only shows the Boltons coming in and taking over, but NEVER mentioned them actually burning it. The other characters only ASSUME that, since they took it over. But it's illogical. It's left pretty vague, and whatever the wolves see are always REAL things, LITERAL, they do not see symbology. Others have made the point in videos before that there's only a few castles in the world that have gargoyles on them, and two of them are Dragonstone and Winterfell. And some had said historically gargoyles are put on castles to guard or protect from monsters etc. So it seems they are always where the dragons are in this story (there's at least a third castle w/them on it but I forget which one..). It seems the gargoyles have something to do w/keeping something locked up in the crypts, and we already have the caved in parts, that could've happened from something either trying to escape before or old Starks caving it in to keep whatever is down there, there. So, I think that when the Boltons took over the castle and there was chaos, it is explicitly mentioned by Bran that the gargoyles were destroyed. So I think that's when the dragon was released and went up into the sky, burning Winterfell as it hates its prison, (and Summer did see a river of flame come out of its mouth and GROWLED at it, implying it was bad, another hint, as we all see how in the story the dire wolves know who is bad and who is good) then maybe went into the north right away. It's very plausible since there's not many people between Winterfell and the north to be able to even spot it, and we only know what POV characters know, so doesn't even mean people DIDN'T spot it. Just know one we know in the story or anyone they talk to. GRRM wouldn't just put that in there for just symbology of Jon being a dragon. I don't buy it (partially as I still hold on to N+A=J, not R+L) and the timing seems off anyway.
Concerning the Starks in the crypts coming back to fight the WW I'm thinking they come back as stone people (not grey scale stone people, the likeness of them that are in the crypts to distinguish them from WW). I'm hoping the hills around Winterfell are giants in addition to the trees. I loved this discussion, tyvm! Today I also watched another livestream you did together, one of the things you said I didn't agree with is you said fire isn't something connected with the children's magic. Isn't fire an element of nature? In the show, the children throw fire bombs at the wights. I think all the religions of these books can be traced back to the long night and how humanity over came the NK (except the old gods who are tied to the children). Now thinking on grey scale this is a subject I'd like to hear a discussion on. I really think GRRM has a plan for why this disease is around. What is the purpose?
After coming home from a business trip from hell with delayed flights, LML and Robert stream.... what a amazing stream! LML and Robert, as I'm watching I had a great idea and I don't know if you two would be willing to do it, but I'm sure people would sub$cribe to it: You two should do readings of the book on private streams with subscribers to explain symbology and mythology chapter by chapter and charge for it: I would be the first one to subscribe! Thnk you guys so much!
Dear sweet Robert, believe in your Stark Army of the Dead! You have won me over. We are told in every book that death pays for life. We must have the battle of the dead for life. The Others are fighting for their species to live, the Weirwoods are fighting to live, humans are fighting to live. Rhilor is bringing death for all, the pure death by fire.
I'm late, but if Bran saw an actual dragon emerging from the ruins of Winterfell, even if he was warging Summer, surely he would have remembered it and thought to mention it? I always thought fans were clutching at straws there. But I do love the idea of the dead Starks "rising" again. Bran's already taken his uncle's sword from his statue (so presumably dead Brandon's soul is now able to roam free or whatever).
One thing I know is that the Azor Ahai/Prince that was promised/ the last hero prophecy will come true. But just as the story is told in different ways but all seem to be the same story. It will be in a way we don’t expect, prophecy is half truths. Dany, Jon, and Stannis as well will all play a part in the prophecy and at the end you won’t be able to say anyone of them was the prince or princess that was promised. But that all of them together made the prophecy come true. So they are all a part of Azor Ahai, and Rhaegar told us the dragon must have three heads.
I lost the video i watched yesterday. About the horn and the crypts. FYI in our mythology trees were ritual for the living and stone was for the dead, hence places like Stonehenge. Just to remind you that right back in the beginning, some fossilised eggs came to life. Perhaps the reason for the statues is that the statues are the Starks. So in case the horn is blown and they come to life, there needs to be a Stark else they will have no leader and sense of wright/wrong (i.e. whom is friend/foe). There therefore has to be a Smaug type under Winterfell else what else is the horn for, to wake the dragon, create heat and bring the stone to life. I personally don't think the horn is broken, i think it needs to be blown in the correct place, the breaking is that of breaking the alliance and breaking the crypt. Perhaps the chief walkers are all Starks, bodies have gone and only the stone statues left, hence why the crypts are locked and the line is broken.
Greetings, Since you brought up the term lightbringer as referenced in Latin as lightbringer, its connection to Venus, and referenced all interconnections including the Bible, I felt compelled to stipulate some corrections if I may. The Biblical reference to Lucifer in Isaiah is not connected to Venus, Satan, nor even Lucifer...but Babylon. Isaiah 13 gives oracles against foreign nations, speaking of accountability to God. Isaiah 14 begins with the promise of Israel's return from Babylonian exile, part of which speaks of the downfall of Babylonian king's, like Nebuchadnezzar. Verses 12-21, where Lucifer is mentioned, paint a picture of the downfall. Helel (morning star) and Shahar (dawn) are both Babylonian astral deities...and are referenced because even the Babylonian Gods could not save their Kings and are themselves "cast down". I think this is mainly the difference between Latin translation versus Hebrew. Strong's Concordance refers to Lucifer as the shining one or light bearer. But as we see above, the true connection is not even with that terminology. Regarding your meteor or asteroid theories.... Yes, I do agree that an explosion of shards across planetos explains perhaps such oddities as the oily black rocks of Asshai, the base of the citadel, and other formations. A rocky or even metal meteor could also explain weapons forged from it, include Sir Arthur Dayne and his sword of the dawn.....or even Valarian Steel. Could it even explain the spiral rock formations around the weir wood trees, or the petroglyphs of spirals, created by both the children of the forest and the white walkers. Such a celestial event would be very important in their memories....especially if it bought extraterrestrial magic or even life.
The 12 companions dying to survive the long night: all men must die I guess. It reminds me of Asshai....not having to eat could help over there and it would explain why there are no kids over there. Interesting.
Sweet Robert..i missed the live stream ..I think Mirri had known about the Prophesy of the Azor Ahai and she believed that Dannys son with Drogo or Danny herself was AA and the Stalion That Mounts The World and wanted to kill her or her child serving the Great Other ..She was the student of Maester Marwyn in Asshai ..We know that the Maesters [except of Maester Aemon and Maester Marwyn who they believe that Danny is the Princess that was Promised ]]they want to destroy the dragons because they want to destroy magic..that fit with what MMD wanted to do to Danny..Azor Ahai wielded the Lightbringer a sword filled with fire..that easily could mean metaphorically the Dragons or the Targaryen Dynasty..fire and blood..the Lightbringer[Jon now] and Nissa Nissa[Viserion] ..Danny who is a conqueror is she who now Mounts the World along with her Dothraki Khalassars ..her blooriders who their symbol is the Horse ..She is the Stallion..The AA and the Stalion they are the same person..Mount the World doesnt have to mean Conquer the world only ..but also save him..Danny fits the AA prophesy and the Stallion that Mounts The World stuff almost perfectly..She Conquers[Stallion] the World but also she wants to save[Azor Ahai] the World ...Danny is like the female Alexander the Great ..He was a Conqueror but he also saved the half Asian continent and its people from the brutality and the darkness of the Persian Empire by bringing and spreading the light of the Greek Civilization and freeing also slave peoples such as teachers,workers,artists and other significant peoples who they had been slaves in the Persian Kings ..giving in them the ability to choose their lives and to teach the people the Greek Culture who for centuries was the basis for all the Knowledge in the world and still is or making them to choose his army . ..Danny did the same thing in Essos where she conquer it with her armies but also gives freedom to the slave people to choose their lives..She also did respect the choice of a slave teacher in S4 to continue to teach the children of his master..She bring the light of the freedom and justice where there was only slavery,death and brutality of the weak and poor people by the elite..As a Greek woman and as Greeks we consider Alexander as our biggest national hero,the most brilliant King/Conqueror/Savior /the Sun of the World and somehow some kind of God equal to Jesus or to the 12 Gods of the Ancient Greece..Danny also in Essos is worshiped as Azor Ahai by the Essosi common people and their Red Priests ..The Red Priests worshiping Danny as Equal to the Savior That Will Save the World from the Long Night and to the Lord of Light ...Her name is also the Scandinavian interpretation of the Lady Of Light as GRRM has stated in one of his interviews where he got asked how did inspired the name of his heroes in ASOIAF .She fits it perfectly ..In the ASOIAF and especially in Volantis is the common folk that follows Rhilor ..Slaves,soldiers,prostitutes and poor people are the majority that in Essos and in the free cities that are follow this religion..not the rich..Danny freeing them ,giving them choice to live a normal life and to choose her army+her 3 dragons is the embodiment of their hopes ..their Messiah ..their Azor Ahai ..She is a combination of Alexander the Great+Qenghis Khan+Aragorn+Jesus=Danny ...That fits Maester Aemons thought in the books and Missandeis interpretation in the show ..that the PTWP/AA/TSTMTW could to be also a female .Grrm is a feminist and he also believes that a woman can do more than a man..and can lead the world too..Danny is the symbol that also a woman can do great things and can write history as a man do also and even better somehow..Everything has nothing to do with the gender that got you born..but with who you are ,what things you have done and who is your target in your life..Many they hate Danny because she is just a woman who changed her status from a slave object to her brother...and becomes something significant in her life and inspires the peoples and the fans to follow her and her vision and love her..that is blind hate..and its just ridiculous and laughable ..because has no logic and is just so mindless and misogynistic ...
Thank you LML for Jon--he IS a wight IMO. He died, and was resurrected, therefore he's a wight IMO. He shouldn't be able to impregnate Daenerys, but it will likely happen because...magic. I'd LOVE to see the Weirwoods in the Crypts, makes great sense.
What if the night king is just trying to get home and rest in his ancestorial crypt? He is a Stark maybe? Amd he is unable to pass the wall ? But if he was to get through he wouldnt be able to enter the crypts becpause he was removed from existence name amd history right? So if your a undead ruler of the far north who would you recruit to help you march on your family to regain your birth right?an
So Magic will cause meteor to fall? That would be Awsome.. Kinda like Thanos in Infinity War.. That would help to make the battle of the Bastards look like child's play.
This is very interesting and very good I was watching live to last night too it makes sense really does in Grrm mind This probably makes sense for for book it will probably be a meteorite that will impact Armageddon blocking out the Sun in the book more like long night again with the the show it the wight walkers the night king summoning the dark and the snow storm ending the circle of longer winters / wheel greed and corruption in Westeros
So your say the. Red comet was the sign of the start of the long night but the very first episode it showed the white walkers already attacking humans and building their army I think the night king has been practicing his necromancer skills and it took him hundreds of years until he was ready to make his war simple as that lol
A aron A Aron irieknight - Yes, it's been clear that the WW/Others have been active for a while, so what happens next won't be *exactly the same as what happened before ...
I love the way you two worked together. I think you compliment each other very well and are both quite brilliant.
Definitely need to do a part 2 to this one.
Pablo Alvestegui - Thank you! Yes, we're already talking about what we cover next time ...
These collaborations you've been doing Robert are LIFE.
You and LML blew my mind on this one
Jessica Jade - Thank you! I'm so glad you're enjoying them.
Thank you LML and Robert. I could listen to this stuff all day! This story never gets boring, and I particuarly enjoy the mythology and symbology ideas
Annarwen Safon - Thank you!
LML - the Graham Hancock of A Song of Ice and FIre. Loved this so sorry I missed it live.
I'll take it!
Good, it was meant as a compliment!!
So now I've had to bookmark Graham Hancock and see what that's all about! Ancient civilizations... hmm.
Oh, btw, you seem to be rather tall; I can imagine you would't want vertical antlers!!
Great guy, both of them
Oh no graham Hancock is bonkers
Cannot tell you how thrilled I am to listen to you two discuss this topic, you are both fantastic. Keep up the good work 👍🏽
Very happy to see y’all together! Thank you both for your great work & excellent presentation. Sorry to miss this live but will be watching many times (as always).
So much intelligent thought backed up with sensational analysis, fantastic complicity and flow throughout. Chaps, you are brilliant at what you do!
Awesome thanks Robert and LML. Enjoyed your conversation and the way your thinking compliment each other. Hope you guys get together again in the future. Love and Hugs from South Africa ❤️💋
Meridian Mormont - Thank you! It was really fun to do, and we're already thinking about what we could talk about another time.
A girl appreciates intelligent eye-candy!! Especially in double doses! Thank you for all of the wonderful insights, gentlemen!
What an enjoyable video. I hope to one catch one live. Thanks Robert for introducing, me at least, to LML. He has some terrific knowledge and a thoughtful approach. You two are different but complement each other nicely!
Mary Ellen Acosta - I always enjoy being able to signpost my subscribers to other people who do great content. And LML certainly does great content!
I'd love to see these two collaborating again
I literally watch everyone you guys listed. Alt Shift X, Grayarea, Talking Thrones, History of Westeros, LML, and of course Robert with Indeepgeek.
I'm binge watching all of your videos, LML and indeepgeek!
You two do an awesome job.
I my heart skips a beat every time John is described as a Zombie.
Zombies are what the night king raises.
They are mindless beings
Well, most of them are - but not Coldhands, is who is an icy undead but is not mindless, then we have Cat and Beric... And Jon is a warg, with an animal to preserve his spirit for a time when he dies, so..
Lol I just actually looked up at LML talking and noticed the horns on his head! hahaha! Mostly listening here at work.
I love LML, such an intelligent chap, always has really well thought out information without insane tinfoil theories up the wazoo! Thanks so much, both of you.
Heather D - He's great, isn't he? I was so glad to be able to introduce some of my subscribers to him and his work.
LML blew my mind multiple times.
Ricky VanDusen - I will always only ever refer my subscribers to other content creators that I love. And LML is one of the best. Please, please check out his channel and enjoy the excellence!
Sorry I missed this live :(
Can't wait, I'm sure this will be great!
"As above, so below" Interesting.
yensid - that's a shame, but I'm glad you get to catch up!
It's 2021 and im watching this getting goosebumps. This video will never get old
Thanks for another great video, i really like your perspective on ASOIAF. And I really like LML way of thinking so.. this video just blew my mind. keep up the great work ;)
Miguel Casasnova - You're welcome! I'm glad you enjoyed the conversation as much as we did!
This was so interesting. You guys make a great duo!!!
gardengirlnc - Thank you!
thanks LML and You Robert !! cant wait for the WW stuff tooo
kimberley g - you're welcome!
I think I remember GRRM saying that Willas Tyrell will be important in the last two books. Like Willas, who loves to watch the stars. So he seems to be into astronomy. He might be onto something here, same as you.
These amazing gentlemen pointed on the potential that Winterfell is a labyrinth and could be a Werewood Net cave. When someone in the novels first "entered" one of the direwolves they weren't actively controling it but observing but the wolf thought of Winterfell as "caves of man rock." I wonder if this is because the crypts were the most important part.
bubbahuskey - that's an interesting point. I first interpreted "caves of man-rock" to mean the buildings aboveground, but now I think it means a lot more; the whole Winterfell complex (as well as a more generic way for a wolf to view things built by men!)
In Deep Geek I always thought they just didn't understand what walls were & figured that's what it was. The only thing that gets me here is if they understand that men placed the rocks, why not understand the concept of a man's dwelling?
In Deep Geek I just wrote a blog regarding these passages about the wolves on Thrones Amino. If you don't use it let me know and I will copy it here.
@@bubbahuskey i would like to read it
Sun and moon mythology nailed it!
This was super interesting, I thoroughly enjoyed this. Thank you for all of the wonderful content you put out.
Kelly Bear - Thank you!
Thanks to LML and Robert for answering my question I finally got the super chat to accept my card
Emilio Camacho Erice - You are very welcome. And thank you so much for the superchat!
In Deep Geek hey thanks to you both for making this amazing content, I wish I could give you more but I'm a student, and I don't have a job
I put this on to sleep, went to set an alarm, and suddenly my man has busted out the horns. Would love future In Deep Geek collaborations with LmL, your brains are great together.
Added LML to my sub list. Caught you before on Aziz's channel but glad to have your own channel to devour.
Just found this video..loved it guys.. thank you 💕👏👍🐺
Your explanation of the sun/moon event hatching dragons is spot on, I think. Well done.
All the work you have done for the series is so unique and eye opening. You have reveled many secrets and an overall understanding of ASOIAF, but I think more than that, you have discovered a way (Georges way rather) that each characters arc is laid out. And now that the story makes more sense we can guess at the many paths of the future ( when expectations are subverted it will be because their are so many options). Thank you for your hard work, here's to your health! ( i can almost say this with the same intent to Robert, Different letter different day)
The dead starks rising forshadowed: arya asked if beric could bring ned back...just once. Arya might see her dad again. And Lyanna for Jon. He would finally meet one of his actual parents. I'd cry my eyes out.
*zombie Ned kills Arya**
wow this is brilliant, analysis, your best guest by far
Excellent work. Sorry it took me so long to get around to watch it .
Very interesting, great video! You have brought up a lot of points I’ve often considered as well. I love these videos it’s great to see many people who are as passionate about asoiaf/got as I am!
Queen of Ice and Fire - Thank you! I love bringing new people to share their ideas with my subscribers, and I'm so glad you're enjoying it too!
I really love this theme and I have to agree you should repeat it :) and cover all that wasn't still mentioned:) Really good!
The horn broken in two makes me think about Ice being broken in two.
I was bummed that I couldn't watch this luve, bit it's been great to listen to during my Saturday crochet. Hope you two get together again. You play perfectly off each other.
Liana Stark - Thank you! I'm sure we will do another one of these soon. And that's a great comparison with Ice ...
Rewatched this! During the live stream I was tourist’ing around San Francisco and really couldn’t make contribution to the chat! 😆
This was a fantastic stream. There's a lot I want to discuss, it's overwhelming. The idea of a mystical meteor storm is fascinating. There's a documentary about Sodom and Gomorrah that I once watched that discussed the idea of meteor storms that inspired the biblical narrative. The 'bleeding star's/red commet foreshadows more to come, I think. There's a fine line, however, to have these elements in a fantasy before it starts to turn sci fi. I don't think it's sci fi, but if dragons came from the moon, which sent meteors from the 'crack' in the moon to planetos, it can be interpreted as godly prowess, which is a great twist. It would make dragons celestial beings, that don't really belong in the ecosystem which we have seen.
Great episode.
I know I'm a bit late to the discussion, but I thought you Robert and you LML might find this interesting, straight from NatGeo's March 2017 cover story:
"In the nearly three centuries before the raids on foreign shores began around A.D. 750, Scandinavia was wracked by turmoil, Price says. More than three dozen petty kingdoms arose during this period, throwing up chains of hill forts and vying for power and territory. In the midst of these troubled times, catastrophe struck. A vast cloud of dust, likely blasted into the atmosphere by a combination of cataclysms-comets or meteorites smashing into Earth, as well as the eruption of at least one large volcano-darkened the sun beginning in A.D. 536, lowering summer temperatures in the Northern Hemisphere for the next 14 years. The extended cold and darkness brought death and ruin to Scandinavia, lying as it did along the northern edge of medieval agriculture. In Sweden’s Uppland region, for example, nearly 75 percent of villages were abandoned, as residents succumbed to starvation and fighting.
"So dire was this disaster that it seems to have given birth to one of the darkest of all world myths-the Nordic legend of Ragnarök, the end of creation and the final battle, in which all gods, all supernatural beings, and all humans and other living creatures die. Ragnarök was said to begin with Fimbulwinter, a deadly time when the sun turns black and the weather turns bitter and treacherous-events that eerily parallel the dust veil that began in 536, Price says."
www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2017/03/vikings-ship-burials-battle-reenactor/
Fractal. An awesome way to think of this story.
Great thoughts guys, thanks for this
James Shepherd - you're welcome!
The broken down bodies from the crypts are spirits or “Shades” as described by Ygritte. That makes the quote all the more important
One of my favorite collabs! The astronomical theories just make so much sense. I could totally see wither Euron getting the horn from Sam while Sam is in Oldtown or Sam finding in a book something about the Horn of Winter and he realizes he has it and then stupidly brings it North or he finds out he can repair and use the horn to stop the white walkers or he thinks he can but he brings down the Wall instead. I can definitely see Sam accidentally knocking down the Wall but then he saves the day at some point. Or the Faceless Man in Oldtown finds out about the Horn and gets it from Sam and steals Sams face. Then goes North and takes down the wall if the Faceless Men want to let in the White Walkers thinking they represent their God.
My ❤ skipped a beat when I heard Quetzalcoatl !!!
Sorry for missing this live. Just caught this week's live following bread crumbs from King Robert channel to Deep Geek. LML have seen a couple of your videos but then did not get the notice bell for subscribed. Stopped this video and now have your channel subscribed right. Yeah!
Robert is the best analyst period, great show guys
Steven Nguyen - Thank you!
I really enjoyed your collaboration. Looking forward to part 2?
Patricia Castro Medina - Thank you! We're definitely looking to do a part 2...
I love that I made it almost to the end before I realized this came out before season 8😂😂😂 ohhh you sweet summer children.
So few commnts for such a huge collaberation between two of the best content creators in the fandom. I must have missed the live commnets.
I'm loving that horn headset. I am envious!
If the dead Starks rise again, I guess that won't include Ned and Robb since they didn't make it to the crypts.
I liked the way LML blended in The Wicker Man reference... Hope he meant the '73 version. Horror and suspense - great film.
But does it change the nature of Jon that he warged into Ghost? Will there be more of him left, unlike Beric and Lady Stoneheart?
Well I did a series about that called Sacred Order of Green Zombies but yeah, I think Jon will have more of himself left because he is a warg where Beric and Cat were not. His spirit will survive for a short time in Ghost, but will start to merge with him, and I actually think we will get a fused Jon-Ghost wolfman spirit sent back to his rezzed body.
I just want Rob, Gray, LML, & Quinn to unite monthly for some purpose. Idc what it is, just want the Ice & Fire Rat Pack together
Love videos from you both! Wish I could have been on for the live show but work.....quick thought I have been having about Winterfell and you both touched on it a bit. Thinking if we look at different meanings of the word "fell" could lead one to believe that it means winter evil, or something similar. So could Winterfell be a prison for winter's evil champion?
Robert Minney - That's possible, thanks!
I agree regarding synonyms for 'fell', which include malevolent/cruel/betrayal. I've been fond of saying "Hot Pie got it right!!!" (Referring to when he called it Winterhell). ☺. Though actually, for the Kings of Winter waiting in the crypts, it is closer to a purgatory.
That was freaking great!! I was in a Marching Band meeting😞One of best. I'll b there Tuesday!! Have wonderful weekend!! I took Latin in High School. Don't know why!! No...really helps with words!!🐺🐉🐙🐊🌹🔥❄💗💗💗💗
I can just say one thing Wow!!!!!!!
Katrin C - You're welcome!
The moon and meteors do look a lot like dragon eggs. Love it!
Very interesting chat. Noticed the claim that the horn may be broken. Have you ever watched ‘Eric the Viking’ they have a horn that wakes the gods. It doesn’t work at first either. Watch and enjoy.
I think you are both right on the money about the army of the death the book dragonkin is an anagram for Odin krag first sounds like army of the death and the second like crag from cranogmen and I'm still decoding the one of dragons wyrms and wyverns, I only have Odin's army which are the slain the einherjar
Euron's crazy magic will cause clouds to blot out the sun and create the opportunity for the White Walkers to expand!
The twelve zombie knights makes me think of the apostles.
Yeah definitely a twisted version of that I think
So I’m behind the idea that the starks from the crypts will be used to fight the Others. Do you think they will retain their faculties or do you think Bran will control them? Do you think they will be able to raise wights? Would another weapon besides Bran be needed to raise wights? Like an ice Melisandre?
Oh crap .. sitting here watching this late at night and suddenly it hits me .. whenever they switch between their streams its clear that LML is a White Walker (Pale light) and now and then his voice crackles like ice (connection noises). O.o
EXPOSED
when you watch this post end of show, and realize there were no ice spiders and your disappointment hits you all over again. damn I was just getting over that :-(
Ah, but fear not my friend - Winds will bring all manner of icy horros
It's all about TWOW, which will be terrifying
Lucifer means Lightbringer you soothe my soul LML
BLEW
MY
MIND
The monster trapped in winterfell: its the stone beast awakening from the prophecy. And bran is the dragon taking flight from the smoking tower.....when he fell. 😉😁
Maybe the horn blower has to be a fire wight who bled to get that way.
jjack flash - maybe ...!
When Robert pointed out the fact that the horn is described as being broken the first thing that popped into my head was Bran. He's non stop going off about he too is broken. I think it's no coincident that he to falls from the same tower that another person fell from if I remember right either while or before the first tower was struck by lightning, and is right infront of the crypt entrance.
Jesse Johnson I think you might be on to something...The correlation is definitely interesting.
watched twice , great colab Robert ,hey i was rereading < gotta do something during this long night.> , any way i wanted to bring up that when Bran and co are leaving the crypts ..ok follow me.. in the crypts Brans "third eye opened " ,he reached out to Ghost / Jon { jons silent shout } while with Qhorin Halfhand .. ok so the serpent on fire is Jon when you are reading it though its half a book away so i dont think its caught thus the theory of a Dragon under Winterfell is in the forefront because of the way GRRM makes things metaphorical dragons IE so many prophetic dragon dreams {hatching eggs that = a Targ. baby is born }
kimberley g - great points; thank you! Yes, I'm pretty sure that the dragon Summer sees is metaphorical.
As far as the statues coming to life, if it happens in the books i would love to see a moment between Lyanna's statue and jon snow. At the point maybe jon has found out about his parentage but hasnt told anyone. Lyanna's statue stands before jon and she raises a hand touches his face or something. It could be a very emotional and touching scene to have between him and his mothers soul?
Great show guys!
Connie Super - thank you!
1:09:00 I still disagree, there has to be a real dragon or something that came up out of Winterell when it was burned. I think the hot springs and all that either do spell out that there's a real living dragon there, or that there was at one point, but it died there, and it's heat still remained to heat the hot springs. I bet there are dragon eggs hidden in all kinds of places, and maybe some were even put there by Lyanna and Rhaegar for Jon (if he really is their son but I still have doubts), as their story seems to copy the Baal the bard story and they probably hid out in the crypts for a while when they first "ran off". Others have done videos on that as well.
But back to the dragon at Wintefell: some say that it was the dragon itself that burned Winterfell so badly b/c it makes no sense for the Boltons to have burned it like that when they wanted to take it over. The book only shows the Boltons coming in and taking over, but NEVER mentioned them actually burning it. The other characters only ASSUME that, since they took it over. But it's illogical. It's left pretty vague, and whatever the wolves see are always REAL things, LITERAL, they do not see symbology.
Others have made the point in videos before that there's only a few castles in the world that have gargoyles on them, and two of them are Dragonstone and Winterfell. And some had said historically gargoyles are put on castles to guard or protect from monsters etc. So it seems they are always where the dragons are in this story (there's at least a third castle w/them on it but I forget which one..). It seems the gargoyles have something to do w/keeping something locked up in the crypts, and we already have the caved in parts, that could've happened from something either trying to escape before or old Starks caving it in to keep whatever is down there, there. So, I think that when the Boltons took over the castle and there was chaos, it is explicitly mentioned by Bran that the gargoyles were destroyed. So I think that's when the dragon was released and went up into the sky, burning Winterfell as it hates its prison, (and Summer did see a river of flame come out of its mouth and GROWLED at it, implying it was bad, another hint, as we all see how in the story the dire wolves know who is bad and who is good) then maybe went into the north right away. It's very plausible since there's not many people between Winterfell and the north to be able to even spot it, and we only know what POV characters know, so doesn't even mean people DIDN'T spot it. Just know one we know in the story or anyone they talk to. GRRM wouldn't just put that in there for just symbology of Jon being a dragon. I don't buy it (partially as I still hold on to N+A=J, not R+L) and the timing seems off anyway.
Concerning the Starks in the crypts coming back to fight the WW I'm thinking they come back as stone people (not grey scale stone people, the likeness of them that are in the crypts to distinguish them from WW). I'm hoping the hills around Winterfell are giants in addition to the trees. I loved this discussion, tyvm!
Today I also watched another livestream you did together, one of the things you said I didn't agree with is you said fire isn't something connected with the children's magic. Isn't fire an element of nature? In the show, the children throw fire bombs at the wights.
I think all the religions of these books can be traced back to the long night and how humanity over came the NK (except the old gods who are tied to the children).
Now thinking on grey scale this is a subject I'd like to hear a discussion on. I really think GRRM has a plan for why this disease is around. What is the purpose?
After coming home from a business trip from hell with delayed flights, LML and Robert stream.... what a amazing stream! LML and Robert, as I'm watching I had a great idea and I don't know if you two would be willing to do it, but I'm sure people would sub$cribe to it: You two should do readings of the book on private streams with subscribers to explain symbology and mythology chapter by chapter and charge for it: I would be the first one to subscribe! Thnk you guys so much!
wasser30 - Thank you! And that's a really interesting idea...
Scarecrow brothers FTW in the fight for the dawn! How cool is that
Dear sweet Robert, believe in your Stark Army of the Dead! You have won me over. We are told in every book that death pays for life. We must have the battle of the dead for life. The Others are fighting for their species to live, the Weirwoods are fighting to live, humans are fighting to live. Rhilor is bringing death for all, the pure death by fire.
Renee Barger - Absolutely!
I'm late, but if Bran saw an actual dragon emerging from the ruins of Winterfell, even if he was warging Summer, surely he would have remembered it and thought to mention it? I always thought fans were clutching at straws there. But I do love the idea of the dead Starks "rising" again. Bran's already taken his uncle's sword from his statue (so presumably dead Brandon's soul is now able to roam free or whatever).
One thing I know is that the Azor Ahai/Prince that was promised/ the last hero prophecy will come true. But just as the story is told in different ways but all seem to be the same story. It will be in a way we don’t expect, prophecy is half truths. Dany, Jon, and Stannis as well will all play a part in the prophecy and at the end you won’t be able to say anyone of them was the prince or princess that was promised. But that all of them together made the prophecy come true. So they are all a part of Azor Ahai, and Rhaegar told us the dragon must have three heads.
I lost the video i watched yesterday. About the horn and the crypts. FYI in our mythology trees were ritual for the living and stone was for the dead, hence places like Stonehenge. Just to remind you that right back in the beginning, some fossilised eggs came to life. Perhaps the reason for the statues is that the statues are the Starks. So in case the horn is blown and they come to life, there needs to be a Stark else they will have no leader and sense of wright/wrong (i.e. whom is friend/foe). There therefore has to be a Smaug type under Winterfell else what else is the horn for, to wake the dragon, create heat and bring the stone to life. I personally don't think the horn is broken, i think it needs to be blown in the correct place, the breaking is that of breaking the alliance and breaking the crypt. Perhaps the chief walkers are all Starks, bodies have gone and only the stone statues left, hence why the crypts are locked and the line is broken.
Going to take me a while to watch all of this and you may have already hit on these ideas.
Wow you two make a great discussion pair! Super interesting stuff
Greetings,
Since you brought up the term lightbringer as referenced in Latin as lightbringer, its connection to Venus, and referenced all interconnections including the Bible, I felt compelled to stipulate some corrections if I may.
The Biblical reference to Lucifer in Isaiah is not connected to Venus, Satan, nor even Lucifer...but Babylon.
Isaiah 13 gives oracles against foreign nations, speaking of accountability to God.
Isaiah 14 begins with the promise of Israel's return from Babylonian exile, part of which speaks of the downfall of Babylonian king's, like Nebuchadnezzar. Verses 12-21, where Lucifer is mentioned, paint a picture of the downfall. Helel (morning star) and Shahar (dawn) are both Babylonian astral deities...and are referenced because even the Babylonian Gods could not save their Kings and are themselves "cast down".
I think this is mainly the difference between Latin translation versus Hebrew. Strong's Concordance refers to Lucifer as the shining one or light bearer. But as we see above, the true connection is not even with that terminology.
Regarding your meteor or asteroid theories....
Yes, I do agree that an explosion of shards across planetos explains perhaps such oddities as the oily black rocks of Asshai, the base of the citadel, and other formations. A rocky or even metal meteor could also explain weapons forged from it, include Sir Arthur Dayne and his sword of the dawn.....or even Valarian Steel. Could it even explain the spiral rock formations around the weir wood trees, or the petroglyphs of spirals, created by both the children of the forest and the white walkers. Such a celestial event would be very important in their memories....especially if it bought extraterrestrial magic or even life.
The 12 companions dying to survive the long night: all men must die I guess. It reminds me of Asshai....not having to eat could help over there and it would explain why there are no kids over there. Interesting.
Oh I've seen this guest somewhere before! Maybe history of Westeros?
Sweet Robert..i missed the live stream ..I think Mirri had known about the Prophesy of the Azor Ahai and she believed that Dannys son with Drogo or Danny herself was AA and the Stalion That Mounts The World and wanted to kill her or her child serving the Great Other ..She was the student of Maester Marwyn in Asshai ..We know that the Maesters [except of Maester Aemon and Maester Marwyn who they believe that Danny is the Princess that was Promised ]]they want to destroy the dragons because they want to destroy magic..that fit with what MMD wanted to do to Danny..Azor Ahai wielded the Lightbringer a sword filled with fire..that easily could mean metaphorically the Dragons or the Targaryen Dynasty..fire and blood..the Lightbringer[Jon now] and Nissa Nissa[Viserion] ..Danny who is a conqueror is she who now Mounts the World along with her Dothraki Khalassars ..her blooriders who their symbol is the Horse ..She is the Stallion..The AA and the Stalion they are the same person..Mount the World doesnt have to mean Conquer the world only ..but also save him..Danny fits the AA prophesy and the Stallion that Mounts The World stuff almost perfectly..She Conquers[Stallion] the World but also she wants to save[Azor Ahai] the World ...Danny is like the female Alexander the Great ..He was a Conqueror but he also saved the half Asian continent and its people from the brutality and the darkness of the Persian Empire by bringing and spreading the light of the Greek Civilization and freeing also slave peoples such as teachers,workers,artists and other significant peoples who they had been slaves in the Persian Kings ..giving in them the ability to choose their lives and to teach the people the Greek Culture who for centuries was the basis for all the Knowledge in the world and still is or making them to choose his army . ..Danny did the same thing in Essos where she conquer it with her armies but also gives freedom to the slave people to choose their lives..She also did respect the choice of a slave teacher in S4 to continue to teach the children of his master..She bring the light of the freedom and justice where there was only slavery,death and brutality of the weak and poor people by the elite..As a Greek woman and as Greeks we consider Alexander as our biggest national hero,the most brilliant King/Conqueror/Savior /the Sun of the World and somehow some kind of God equal to Jesus or to the 12 Gods of the Ancient Greece..Danny also in Essos is worshiped as Azor Ahai by the Essosi common people and their Red Priests ..The Red Priests worshiping Danny as Equal to the Savior That Will Save the World from the Long Night and to the Lord of Light ...Her name is also the Scandinavian interpretation of the Lady Of Light as GRRM has stated in one of his interviews where he got asked how did inspired the name of his heroes in ASOIAF .She fits it perfectly ..In the ASOIAF and especially in Volantis is the common folk that follows Rhilor ..Slaves,soldiers,prostitutes and poor people are the majority that in Essos and in the free cities that are follow this religion..not the rich..Danny freeing them ,giving them choice to live a normal life and to choose her army+her 3 dragons is the embodiment of their hopes ..their Messiah ..their Azor Ahai ..She is a combination of Alexander the Great+Qenghis Khan+Aragorn+Jesus=Danny ...That fits Maester Aemons thought in the books and Missandeis interpretation in the show ..that the PTWP/AA/TSTMTW could to be also a female .Grrm is a feminist and he also believes that a woman can do more than a man..and can lead the world too..Danny is the symbol that also a woman can do great things and can write history as a man do also and even better somehow..Everything has nothing to do with the gender that got you born..but with who you are ,what things you have done and who is your target in your life..Many they hate Danny because she is just a woman who changed her status from a slave object to her brother...and becomes something significant in her life and inspires the peoples and the fans to follow her and her vision and love her..that is blind hate..and its just ridiculous and laughable ..because has no logic and is just so mindless and misogynistic ...
Thank you LML for Jon--he IS a wight IMO. He died, and was resurrected, therefore he's a wight IMO. He shouldn't be able to impregnate Daenerys, but it will likely happen because...magic. I'd LOVE to see the Weirwoods in the Crypts, makes great sense.
What if the night king is just trying to get home and rest in his ancestorial crypt? He is a Stark maybe? Amd he is unable to pass the wall ? But if he was to get through he wouldnt be able to enter the crypts becpause he was removed from existence name amd history right? So if your a undead ruler of the far north who would you recruit to help you march on your family to regain your birth right?an
This guy is looking for stuff that isnt there. I admire his love for the books but his analysis is way off.
Ice spiders up the wall in season 8... oh what hope there was
So Magic will cause meteor to fall? That would be Awsome.. Kinda like Thanos in Infinity War.. That would help to make the battle of the Bastards look like child's play.
So what we've been told in the show about the children of the forest creating the white walkers, is that all fake?
the Army will be the Statues in the Crypts animated by Starks....
Its a shame the show has diverted from the books...
Lisa Meshell-Flieger - It is, but I understand it; they only have a certain amount of screen time and can't possibly be expected to fit everything in.
It's not all bad. We missed some truly awful filler from the last two books, thank the gods.
My two favorites
Awesome!🦇🦇🐺🐺🌕🌑✨
Lesha Easley - Thank you!
This is very interesting and very good I was watching live to last night too it makes sense really does in Grrm mind
This probably makes sense for for book it will probably be a meteorite that will impact Armageddon blocking out the Sun in the book more like long night again with the the show it the wight walkers the night king summoning the dark and the snow storm ending the circle of longer winters / wheel greed and corruption in Westeros
You running on fumes ?
So...Much...Information... Makes me wanna do research.
So your say the. Red comet was the sign of the start of the long night but the very first episode it showed the white walkers already attacking humans and building their army I think the night king has been practicing his necromancer skills and it took him hundreds of years until he was ready to make his war simple as that lol
A aron A Aron irieknight - Yes, it's been clear that the WW/Others have been active for a while, so what happens next won't be *exactly the same as what happened before ...