Women can be rabbi (teachers), but a rabbi is not a priest (authority to perform rites/sacraments); women absolutely cannot be priests. End of discussion.
Rev'd Wright may say more about this on the full talk, but I would add: In the O.T., there were female prophets such as Miriam, Deborah and Huldah. (Exod.15:20; Jud.4:4-5; 2 Kings 22:14-20) Deborah was not merely a prophet, she was also a judge, that is, she interpreted and applied the Law/Torah when settling legal disputes. A new and 'better covenant' (Heb.7:22) would not lower the status of women! On the contrary, the Holy Spirit's anointing is for all ages, all social classes and both genders (Acts 2:17-18). The gift of prophecy is mentioned as applying to women as well as men, not one but twice! Paul expected women to prophesy (1 Cor.11:5), and they did! (Acts 21:9) You cannot prophesy - that is, proclaim the word of the Lord silently, with your mouth closed! Romans 12:4-8 lists various gifts, including prophesying, teaching and leadership, which Paul encourages those who possess them to use. Neither the word 'man' nor any male pronouns are in the original Greek! There is no suggestion that some gifts are only for men. Both men and women should use whatever gifts they have! Priscilla taught Apollos, a man! (Acts 18:24-26). Paul tells Timothy to ‘treat older women as mothers’ (1 Tim.5:1-2). Timothy was taught the Scriptures by his mother and grandmother (2 Tim.1:5; 3:14-15), which means that younger men, even those in positions of leadership like Timothy, should be willing to learn from the knowledge and experience of older women. (The Greek word translated ‘older women’ is simply the feminine form of ‘elders’, so clearly the early church had female elders!) 1 Cor.14:34-36 is part of a section, which starts at 12:1, in which Paul addresses questions raised by the Corinthians about the use spiritual gifts (see also 7:1, 8:1, 16:1). He may be quoting something said by the Corinthians, and correcting their misunderstanding. After all, the law says nothing about women having to be silent, and Paul made it clear that we are no longer in bondage to the law. He can't possibly have meant that women must be totally silent, because he obviously expected them to participate verbally in church gatherings, by praying and prophesying. He would not contradict himself! 1 Timothy 2:8-15, some very pertinent questions: - If Paul simply wanted to say that women should not have authority over men, why does he use the very unusual word 'authentein', instead of the normal word for authority, 'exousia', used throughout the rest of the N.T.? What does 'authentein' really mean? - Why should Adam being created before Eve mean women may not lead or teach? Humans were created last, yet were given joint, equal authority over the rest of creation (Gen.1:26-28). If the order in which they were created is the deciding factor, then woman should have authority over man! - Why should a deliberate rebel (Adam), who sinned knowingly, be more fitted to lead and teach than someone who was deceived? - What does verse 15 mean? That godly women will not die in childbirth? But they sometimes do! That having babies is the way for women to receive eternal salvation? Clearly nonsense! This verse is notoriously difficult to translate. The Greek literally reads: But ‘she (singular) will be saved (or restored) through the birth of the child, if they (plural) continue in faith etc.’ The best way to understand this passage: Paul was writing to Timothy in Ephesus which was the centre of the cult of the goddess Artemis (Diana), the goddess of hunting, but also seen as the great mother-goddess, the source of life. False teaching was infecting the church: myths, anti-marriage ideas and an obsession with genealogies. (1:4-7; 4:1-3; Tit.3:9). Paul had left Timothy there to deal with the false teachers (1:4-7). One popular heresy was that Eve was created before Adam, and that she gave life to his lifeless body. Also that she, by eating the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, received enlightenment from the serpent, which she then passed on to Adam. Naturally, this idea was attractive to women, and tended to be taught and spread by them. (The word 'men' in 1:3 should be 'people'.) The word 'authentein' has the connotation of originating or being the source of something (compare our word 'authentic'). The Greek in v.12 is the genitive ‘of’ not ‘over’ (men). Hence, what Paul seems to be saying is: “[At this time] a woman should learn in quietness and full submission.” (Until they know what they are talking about.) “I do not permit a woman to teach that she is the originator of man. She must be silent [on this issue],” (because it isn’t true and it is women who are teaching it!) “For [the truth is] Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived [with Eve bringing him enlightenment]; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner [not a saviour!] But she [womankind, of whom Eve is the representative head] will be restored [to her original status of equality and/or position of honour] through the birth of the child”, (i.e. a specific child, the Messiah, the promised seed of the woman, brought into the world by a woman, Gen. 3:15; Gal.4:4; Luke 1:28, 45), “if they continue in faith, love etc.” (showing that their faith is real, see James 2:22). Understood this way, we see that Paul is correcting a heresy, which he often did in his letters, not giving a totally illogical reason why women may not lead or teach!
@@terrencehill3620 In 2 Tim.1:5, Paul writes, "I have been reminded of your sincere faith, which first lived in your grandmother Lois and in your mother Eunice and, I am persuaded, now lives in you also." Now consider that in the light of 2 Tim.3:14-15, "But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from INFANCY, you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Messiah Jesus." Clearly, it must have been Timothy's mother and grandmother who taught him the scriptures - from a very young age! Who else could have taught him, given that his father was a Greek? (Acts 16:1-3).
@@terrencehill3620 Please do not lecture me about a correct reading of Scripture when you can't even read it correctly yourself! 'Samuel became a King ...' ?? Er ... where is that in the Bible? Samuel was a prophet (1 Sam.3:19-21) and the last judge of Israel who anointed Saul as the first king. And he did not grow up 'in the church (!!) under Eli', it was in the Tabernacle. In any case, what has Samuel being taught by Eli rather than his mother got to do with who taught Timothy? Nothing! Timothy was not brought up in the temple by priests, he was brought up by his own family in Lystra. He couldn't even have been taught at a local synagogue because there wasn't one in Lystra. Had there been, Paul and Barnabas would have gone there first, as was their custom on arriving in a new city. The Jews who opposed them came from Antioch and Iconium, not a local synagogue (Acts 13:14; 14:1, 19). In Jewish homes, it was the responsibility of both parents to teach their children the Scriptures, and sons were told, "Do not forsake your mother's teaching." (Prov.1:8). Since Timothy's father was a Greek, it MUST have been his mother and grandmother who taught him the Scriptures, and that is what Paul was referring to when he wrote, "Continue in what you have learned ... because you know those (plural) from whom you learned it, and how FROM INFANCY you have known the holy Scriptures." Paul had not known Timothy 'from infancy', but only as a young adult. Of course he instructed his protégé to take careful note of his own teaching concerning the gospel (2 Tim.1:13), but that is NOT what he means in 3:14-17. I really do not have time to continue a discussion with someone who is wilfully blind to the truth. Edit: P.S. It now appears that Terrence Hill, having realised his silly mistake, has removed the comments to which I responded.
I think you are mistaken. Paul is not correcting a heresy here. This is certainly not the orthodox interpretation at all - a view which the church has held for nearly 2000yrs. And this is a pretty consistent track record by the church on this topic, which is important to recognise. But if there is no problem with women being in positions of leadership, why does the Bible testify to the contrary? When you consider Deborah. Absolutely, a woman who understood Gods ordained hierarchy. She tried to get Barak to lead. He was afraid. He wouldn’t go to battle without her coming with him. And this judgement that she pronounces over him, is that the glory of that battle would go not to a man, but to a woman. The significance is that it was to his shame. In Isaiah God speaks of children and women, being in leadership in Israel, and this being part of Gods judgement over the nation. “My people- infants are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, your guides mislead you and they have swallowed up the course of your paths.” Isaiah 3:12 ESV As for Paul. “And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.” 1 Timothy 2:9-12, 14- KJV Paul interestingly makes his argument on the basis of creation. He brings it right back to the garden of Eden. You honestly have to ask yourself why does he do that? Why does Paul choose to highlight that it was Eve who was deceived? Bring the meaning back to Creation, making the point applicable for all time, not just one point in history, where woman lived in a patriarchal society. “For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is SHAMEFUL for a woman to speak in church.” 1 Corinthians 14:33-35 ESV αἰσχρός - disgraceful, shameful Definition: strictly, deformed, opposed to καλός; metaph. shameful, indecent, dishonorable, vile, 1 Cor. 11:6; 14:35; Eph. 5:12; Tit. 1:11* You cannot ignore these Scriptures or their meaning. “The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; THAT THEY MAY TEACH (WHO?) THE YOUNG WOMEN to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.” Titus 2:3-5 KJV ELDERS must be… each time, the scripture presumes that this office is only open to a MAN. “An elder must be blameless, faithful to HIS WIFE, a MAN whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.” Titus 1:6 “The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, HE desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, THE HUSBAND OF ONE WIFE, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,” 1 Timothy 3:1-2
Consider Charles Elliot’s commentary - on this issue. “And Adam was not deceived.--Priority in creation was the ground alleged by St. Paul as the reason why the woman was never to exercise authority over man, the eldest born of God. "Adam was not deceived;" the Apostle now refers to the general basis of his direction respecting the exclusion of women from all public praying and teaching contained in 1Timothy 2:9-12. The argument here is a singular one--Adam and Eve both sinned, but Adam was not deceived. He sinned, quite aware all the while of the magnitude of the sin he was voluntarily committing. Eve, on the other hand, was completely, thoroughly deceived (the preposition with which the Greek verb is compounded here conveying the idea of thoroughness)--she succumbed to the serpent's deceit. Both were involved in the sin, but only one (Eve) allowed herself to be deluded. So Bengel, "Deceptio indicat minus robur in intellectu, atque hic nervus est cur mulieri non liceat docere." Prof. Reynolds thus comments on the argument of the Apostle:--"This may sound to our ears a far-fetched argument, when used to discountenance female usurpation of intellectual supremacy. It was, however, a method current at the time to look for and find in the Scriptures the concrete expressions of almost all philosophical judgments. At the present day we could hardly find a more vivid illustration of the essential difference between the masculine and feminine nature. If there be this distinction between the sexes, that distinction still furnishes the basis of an argument and a reason for the advice here rendered. The catastrophe of Eden is the beacon for all generations when the sexes repeat the folly of Eve and Adam, and exchange their distinctive position and functions."
Men and women ARE CREATED DIFFERENT. Women ARE NOT LESS than men. But clearly God has designated different roles. People can wrongly assume those different roles suggest inferiority for women. People can wrongly assume that the roles were designated on account of men being more qualified. God has designated what he wishes. And that’s that. There were other men who seemed more qualified to be king of Israel in the sight of Samuel. But God wanted David. What God wants might not make sense to us. There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death. (Proverbs 14:12) Is Christ less than his Father? Yet he submits to the Father. Are they not equal? They have different roles, yet they are ONE. Again - let’s consider …. 12 disciples ALL MEN. The Apostles ALL MEN. WHY? When they needed to fill the position of Judas, why was a woman not considered? The women were there with them. BUT.. again, “Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the MEN who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”” Acts 1:21-22 NIV “So they nominated two MEN: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias.” Acts 1:23 NIV Why was a woman not considered? Why is the MAN to be the head of the wife? Why is the wife called to submit to the husband? Are they not equal? Why did Satan choose to speak with Eve not Adam? Why does Paul choose to highlight that it was Eve who was deceived? Bring the meaning back to Creation, making the point applicable for all time, not just one point in history, where woman lived in a patriarchal society. It’s God making the point by these things being found in scripture. As all scripture is God breathed. I appreciate where you are coming from, and there are scenarios which are going be more nuanced. But just because there exists a few exceptions to the rule does not make it normative for the church and what is prescribed by God in holy scripture. And I don’t think it’s any coincidence that this particular issue started to be seriously challenged in earnest post feminism.
Brilliant! I’m with you Dr, Wright. Thank you for quoting Ken Bailey, too. Most in the West interpret the Bible with their Western mind forgetting that the Bible was written from an eastern context. Sadly, there are also those who weaponize those verses against women, too.
It's amazing how the modernist church uncovers this correct teaching all the Apostles, the Church Fathers and all of Tradition got wrong! So amazing. I can't wait for the age of increasing church attendance in churches that embrace this correct teaching and all the increasing orthodoxy this will usher in.
Fundamentalists take the words of scripture, and completely ignore the context, the time period, the audience, and the culture. They ignore what NT Wright is saying, and just repeat scripture, as if that proves their point. Thank you NT Wright for making sense of Paul, and help the seemingly disparate messages of scripture to align for us modern people 2000 years later.
You’re telling me the church was wrong on this issue for over 1500 years?! And only now are we enlightened to see the true meaning? Opposed to the people who spoke the original languages…? OK.
@@LaMOi1 Right - and it just so happens that we are finding that we are wrong at a time when the culture is telling us that we are wrong, and when egalitarianism is by far the majority view of the surrounding culture? I’m sure this is all about our biblical exegesis and has nothing at all whatsoever to do with the culture.
The Bible expressly states, AS MANY AS RECEIVED HIM, TO THEM HE GAVE THE POWER TO BECOME THE SONS OF GOD! there's no indication of God seeing men and women differently! This is a tactic of the devil to create confusion in the church!
@@LaMOi1 I'm so glad that you do know the Scriptures, because it's upon your knowledge you shall be judged! You should try to let scripture interpret scripture, maybe you might learn something about culture and customs! Bless you!
@@cliftonemanuellaurence8874 God has chosen distinct roles for both men and women that they may complement each other in a way that most glorifies Himself. Women may be fragile in some regards, but so are many things that are most precious to us. Men and women should work together, each fulfilling their respective, distinct roles, for the common goal of glorifying God. Spiritually, men and women are absolutely equal. Physically, they are obviously not equal. Scripture is clear that women are not to teach men. Nt Wrong is wrong on this as he is on many other matters. The Word of God proclaims, “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent” (1 Timothy 2:11-12). In the church, God assigns different roles to men and women. This is a result of the way mankind was created and the way in which sin entered the world (1 Timothy 2:13-14). God, through the apostle Paul, restricts women from serving in roles of teaching and/or having spiritual authority over men. This precludes women from serving as pastors over men, since pastoring definitely includes preaching, teaching publicly, and exercising spiritual authority. Do you know why brierly has Nt Wright on his show ? Because his wife is a female pastor. The structure of 1 Timothy 2:11-14 makes the reason why women cannot be pastors perfectly clear. Verse 13 begins with “for,” giving the “cause” of Paul’s statement in verses 11-12. Why should women not teach or have authority over men? Because “Adam was created first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived” (verses 13-14). God created Adam first and then created Eve to be a “helper” for Adam. The order of creation has universal application in the family (Ephesians 5:22-33) and in the church. The fact that Eve was deceived is also given as a reason for women not serving as pastors or having spiritual authority over men (1 Timothy 2:14). This does not mean that women are gullible or that they are all more easily deceived than men. If all women are more easily deceived, why would they be allowed to teach children (who are easily deceived) and other women (who are supposedly more easily deceived)? The text simply says that women are not to teach men or have spiritual authority over men because Eve was deceived. God has chosen to give men the primary teaching authority in the church. Many women excel in gifts of hospitality, mercy, teaching, evangelism, and helping/serving. Much of the ministry of the local church depends on women. Women in the church are not restricted from public praying or prophesying (1 Corinthians 11:5), only from having spiritual teaching authority over men. The Bible nowhere restricts women from exercising the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12). Women, just as much as men, are called to minister to others, to demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), and to proclaim the gospel to the lost (Matthew 28:18-20; Acts 1:8; 1 Peter 3:15). God has ordained that only men are to serve in positions of spiritual teaching authority in the church. This does not imply men are better teachers or that women are inferior or less intelligent. It is simply the way God designed the church to function. Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership-in their lives and through their words. Women are to take a less authoritative role. Women are encouraged to teach other women (Titus 2:3-5). The Bible also does not restrict women from teaching children. The only activity women are restricted from is teaching or having spiritual authority over men. This bars women from serving as pastors to men. This does not make women less important, by any means; rather, it gives them a ministry focus more in agreement with God’s plan and gifts.
@@cliftonemanuellaurence8874 12 disciples ALL men. Apostles ALL men… WHY? Why is that? If it really doesn’t matter? Why after Judas needed replacing, why was the post not open to a woman? Why does scripture presume an Elder to be a MAN? Why has the church been consistent on this issue for over 1500yrs. That’s a long time… Any conincidence this issue started to be seriously challenged post feminism..? The Bible is pretty consistent on this issue too. You have a few instances which prove the exception rather than the rule - and you then ignore all the testimony of scripture and church history? In Isaiah God speaks of children and women, being in leadership in Israel, and this being part of Gods judgement over the nation “My people- infants are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, your guides mislead you and they have swallowed up the course of your paths.” Isaiah 3:12 ESV And how can you dispute this scripture. “In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. …AND ADAM WAS NOT DECEIVED, BUT THE WOMAN BEING DECEIVED WAS IN TRANSGRESSION.” 1 Timothy 2:9-12, 14- KJV Paul interestingly makes his argument on the basis of creation. He brings it right back to the garden of Eden. That couldn’t be clearer. “For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is SHAMEFUL for a woman to speak in church.” 1 Corinthians 14:33-35 ESV αἰσχρός - disgraceful, shameful Definition: strictly, deformed, opposed to καλός; metaph. shameful, indecent, dishonorable, vile, 1 Cor. 11:6; 14:35; Eph. 5:12; Tit. 1:11* You cannot ignore these Scriptures or their meaning. To be CLEAR. Woman are not LESS than men. But it’s clear we have different God ordained roles even in the church.
His speculation about Phoebe is unsupported and unwarranted and is a "straw man" argument in support of his progressive theology. Smart does not equal right. Paul said, and we all agree that "[a]ll Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16. If that is correct, then why don't we consider 1 Timothy 2:9-15 as equals inspired and of considerable importance as the prior verse. Because NT wright is a prelate in the Church of England, a church that is a branch of the government, he cannot support a correct interpretation of the verses regarding women. Paul does not limit the activities of women outside the church only in the church and gives his inspired reason. The Holy Spirit was given to instruct, comfort and convict. Wright works and believes contra the Holy Spirit.
gameover boys, checkmate, God bless you guys. Debate is over. Proverbs 7:4 KJV [4] Say unto wisdom, Thou art my SISTER; and call understanding thy KINSWOMAN: Proversb 1:20-21 [20]Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth HER VOICE in the streets: [21]SHE CRIETH in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying, Revelation 22:17 KJV [17] And the Spirit and the BRIDE say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
she cries in the chief place of concoure. This is a woman preaching, kinswoman, a sister the bible says. And you have many more examples, Mary, Anna the prophetess, and etc. Too many scriptures. Also us, we are the Bride of Christ, the bride of Christ is on the earth. Doing what? Preaching and teaching the kingdom of God. Jesus isnt married to a husband, hes married to a bride. A man in the body of Christ, is considered the bride of Christ.
Sorry, the Bible is contradictory. That is why there is no agreement on the role of women. 1 Timothy clearly teaches that women are to be excluded. Other passages clearly teach equality. There are reasons to doubt that Paul actually wrote many of the epistles attributed to him. The Bible is not the inspired Word of God. It is a human document recording the opinions of the faith communities about God. They got some things wrong. Sorry, most of the things that we are taught about the Bible, God and Jesus is just not true. A lot of new evidence has come to light in the last 50 years.
The Jewish women were under law of Moses,the gentile women only had 4rules given by the church in Jerusalem,right?they were fighting then,even about Jews,and Greek believers ,being together,?right?
Can we not consider the consistency of church history on this issue? And we are more enlightened now are we? Consider women and children leaders were part of God Judgement over Israel. “As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.” Isaiah 3:12 KJV Consider the first line of Deborah’s song… “When the princes take the lead in Israel, when the people volunteer, bless the LORD. JUDGES 5:2 Then the proof texts… “In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. And ADAM WAS NOT DECEIVED BUT THE WOMAN BEING DECEIVED was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.” 1 Timothy 2:9-12, 14-15 KJV “For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is SHAMEFUL for a woman to speak in church.” 1 Corinthians 14:33-35 ESV αἰσχρός - disgraceful, shameful Definition: strictly, deformed, opposed to καλός; metaph. shameful, indecent, dishonorable, vile, 1 Cor. 11:6; 14:35; Eph. 5:12; Tit. 1:11* “The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; that they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.” Titus 2:3-5 KJV
you wrote: Consider women and children leaders were part of God Judgement over Israel. Deborah was a good judge. I did an essay on her which can be posted. The gospel is a teaching. The first and most important of all. If a woman can teach a man the gospel, she can teach all the lesser teachings to men. This is logic. Even in the teaching/preaching of the gospel, a man may ask a woman about something scriptural/spiritual. So if the man asks about the so-called 7 deadly sins, she can't say a word? If indeed she can speak to him about this as an unsaved man, then she can't once he becomes saved?
@@8784-l3b Let me ask you - the 12 disciples, all of the apostles, all men. Why do you think that was? Was this a mistake? If God wasn’t bothered man or woman being leaders within the church, why only men. Woman are not - with only a few exceptions, Deborah. At a time when Israel was in a very bad place. It was not normative for the church/Gods people. The church has been very consistent on this issue for 100s of years. So they got it wrong did they?? Deborah is a fine example of a godly woman - tried to get the king to lead. But he was afraid. So what happened..? She pronounces a judgement over him. That the glory of the battle would not go to a man but a woman! The purpose? It was meant to shame him… And your point there is confused - why would a woman not share the gospel with an unbeliever? That’s a bit of a straw man. Paul is talking about normative leadership structure and places of authority within the church. Women are not permitted to teach, or hold places of authority. Scripture is clear on this.
@@LaMOi1 you wrote: Deborah is a fine example of a godly woman - tried to get the king to lead. But he was afraid. Barak was the commander of the army. Deborah was over him. The first king of Israel was still in the future. you wrote: Paul is talking about normative leadership structure and places of authority within the church. Women are not permitted to teach, or hold places of authority. As I wrote: The gospel is a teaching. The first and most important of all. If a woman can teach a man the gospel, she can teach all the lesser teachings to men. This is logic. I addressed the elder/teacher matter in my post 'Complementarianism'. I've put it up a few times at different videos. I can paste it in here if I did not already. Also, again I mention Deborah. What is the correct and proper teaching of her during the time of the Old Covenant? I believe that is very important to understand. Certainly a judge was above any pastor/elder/whatever in our time.
@@8784-l3b So church history means nothing? The consistency of the church on this issue, is well evidenced. It only started to be challenged in the 60s-70s in this century!! That’s a consistent record of nearly 2000 yrs! It’s the height of arrogance to think we are now more enlightened than the church fathers. And you keep repeating your posts, but not acknowledging the plain teaching of scripture. You just have to open your eyes. Why 12 disciples had to be men? If it really didn’t matter. ..? Why does scripture presume any elder in the church will be a man? Again Deborah was a Judge (yes a godly woman) at a time when Israel was in a bad way. Look at scripture - females leaders were not the norm. At all - how can you even dispute this? Clearly they are the exception at times when Israel was a mess. Woman and children leaders was God judgement. This is clear. Just because there is one or two instances in scripture where you have a woman instructing a man in the gospel? How does that overthrow the overwhelming teaching of scripture and set a precedent ?? That’s really bad exegesis. “In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. And ADAM WAS NOT DECEIVED BUT THE WOMAN BEING DECEIVED was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.” 1 Timothy 2:9-12, 14-15 KJV What do you do with this and the scripture above? You seem to want it to be true but the scriptures testify against your position. Submit to the word of God. Not the present culture. It’s also worth noting you keep appealing to logic? I think there’s many instances my God does things that certainly won’t seem logical to us. So as I said, you just have to be a slave to scripture. And where the scripture says things that you don’t even understand, or don’t agree with, then you have to go back to God. But ultimately submit to his word.
@@LaMOi1 Complementarianism That false and confusing teaching, that states Christian women are less than Christian men in a spiritual way, but they really aren't, but they really are. The complementarian teaching prohibits a Christian woman from holding certain positions in a church. They can't be elders neither can they teach men. So why is that? The false teaching makes it clear that the priesthood of the New Covenant is tiered. There is a hierarchy. Those that are higher, the men, can be in leadership positions, like elder. They can teach other men. Those in the lower tier can not be in leadership positions, like elder. They are prohibited from teaching men, because the men are in the higher tier. It wouldn't make any sense. A new believer is automatically assigned their level, higher or lower, at the moment of salvation, as a birthright. Their gender determines their tier. A church, is either a group of Christian men or a group of Christian men and women. A church can never be a group of Christian women, because it would be a group of only those in the lower tier. It would have no elders. But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. -excerpt 1 Peter 2 Since the teaching states that women are spiritually inferior to men, but they aren't, but they are, when did that start? But I do not allow a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a wrongdoer. -excerpt 1 Timothy 2 It started with the first woman. She was deceived, and sinned because of it. So we have a teaching that accepts that men and women are fallen beings. Both genders are sinful by nature. However women are different. They are lacking the ability that men have to judge if some situation, some concept or teaching is sinful. This inability was passed down from Eve to all women. It remains to this day. A woman in our time was 'lacking' from birth, even from the womb. So what can be done? Nothing according to Complementarianism. That is because an anointing of that powerful masculine being called the Holy Spirit, is just not sufficient. Even the Holy Spirit can not elevate even one Christian woman to the spiritually superior level of a Christian man.
If Jesus had appointed one of His twelve apostles to be a woman we wouldn't be having this discussion, but He didn't! Women can certainly teach other women and children but as a general rule, women should leave the teaching of men to the men. It has nothing to do with gifting just as a gifted man who does not have his house in order should not teach. Just as Jesus is not offended that His Father is over Him a woman should not be offended that her husband is over her. Especially in this day and age when there is so much gender confusion, men thinking they are women and women thinking they are men, Satan is destroying God's order in families and God's family!
Then why did God make Deborah a judge? If a man would not accept the verdict given by a judge, the penalty was execution, according to Deuteronomy 17. (I did a short essay on Deborah should you want it posted.)
This is the truth. There's no ambiguity about it. Women and men are DIFFERENT because we serve different roles. But Satan twists "different" into "unequal".
@@TheSwordandPearl Complementarianism is a false teaching. I did a post on that should you want to check it out. Regardless, Deborah was taught for about 1000 years. I submit to anyone, that if they can't explain the correct and proper understanding of her story, as it was taught in the time of the Old Covenant, they won't understand Christian women's ministry in the New Covenant. (I wrote a short essay on Deborah which can be posted if there is interest.)
Yeah… he’s just wrong. Mike winger explores this on his channel explores the egalitarian and complimentarian debate for 20+ hours without straw manning either side. I went into seminary wanting to be egalitarian…… but none of the egalitarians I met held consistently to orthodoxy and usually ended up trading the gospel for radical feminism or social justice
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 Peter 2:1
"Game over" because Mary Magdalene were told to tell the disciples what Jesus had said? It's amazing that such a learned man can suddenly reason so childishly. Wright apparently favors women priests, and that makes him a false prophet on that issue. It is sad.
It's simple but as usual theologians are making it complex and hard, women in the Church or in family or in any position, the order is that God is first, and man is second and the woman is third. So, women aren't allowed in Public ministry, there's no scriptural support, and it's not necessary, NT Wright is just collecting all of the scriptures concerning women & trying to include them in the ministry as JESUS didn't choose even a single woman as His Apostle. In fact, Paul goes back to the free- fall scenario and says that he's not allowing women to say anything in the Church but keep silent.
Did Jesus teach a two-tiered priesthood? That is apparently what you support. But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. -excerpt 1 Peter 2
Sooo as God pronounces judgment in Gen 3, the overturned order is emphasised in the way he deals first with the serpent, then with the woman and then with man. In the cursed and FALLEN world, the good order of chapter 2 becomes distorted and bitter- the serpent will attack the woman's offspring and be crushed under his heel; the woman will attempt to master the man, but he will be dominated by him instead; and the man, rather than ruling and tending a bountiful garden, will gain his food by sweat from a hostile earth. There is an order to Gods creation; there is a structure to the relationships between men and women that is built into the very fabric of things. God made Adam first and Eve to be his helper, and both to rule over the rest of the creation. The very essence of Adam and Eves sin was their overturning of this order yet here many are trying to do just that again ????? So before looking at the 3rd theme in Genesis (childbirth) review the first 2. Obviously when one compares Gen 2-3 with 1 Timothy 2, the relationship between the two passages is not difficult to see. Women are being warned NOT to upset the order of creation by usurping authority in the manner that Eve did. What we find more difficult to understand is why this should be expressed through teaching in the church, and what it is about teaching that makes Paul single it out as the authority issue, so do women have to be utterly silent and not say a word in Christian gatherings ?? The answer to that rests in our understanding of what "teaching" is. People tend to think of teaching as merely an intellectual activity- imparting knowledge or giving instruction to someone. However, in the Bible and indeed in other fields as well, teaching involves a special type of relationship between the teacher and the student. Christian teaching involves authority. The teacher moulds the life of the taught: the teacher is given the privilege and responsibility of guiding, informing, persuading, changing and leading. This is why teaching and authority are so closely tied together in 1 Tim 2:12. To be in a teaching relationship with someone is to be exercising some sort of Authority over him or her. Under Christ's authority, and through his word to us in 1 Tim 2:11-12, we are told that woman ought not to teach or have this authority over men. Teaching a man is wrong because by teaching him, the woman enters into a relationship of authority over him. By teaching the man, the woman is falling into Eve's error- turning the order of creation upside down. Teaching is the flip side of learning "quietly with all submissiveness" v11. Eve's sin involved overturning the order of creation and teaching her husband !!. Similarly, Adams sin came from listening to his wife in the sense of heeding and following her instructions. He allowed himself to be taught by her, thereby putting himself under her authority and reversing Gods good ordering of creation. This biblical teaching may seem hard, especially in a society where women aim for, and often achieve, authority over men. But this isn't talking about a position as CEO of a company or a womens capacity in that regard, it's about how the church is to be run. We have to trust that any unhappiness with this instruction springs from our mistrust in the Goodness of Gods word. The word seems far less terrible if 1. We believe in Gods goodness and that he wants the best for us. 2. We don't see quietness and full submission as weakness, but as meekness- not as a demeaning and pathetic thing, but rather as a Holy and life affirming response to how God has created the world. 3. We recognise that Christ is our teacher, AND that he has ordained through his word that men and women relate this way. So then that leaves theme 3 ( childbirth) v15 This verse sounds unusual upon first reading. It appears to be saying that childbirth has something to do with a woman's salvation, it seems to run contrary to the understanding that we are saved only though the death of Jesus Christ, which takes away our sins. It also seems to say that a woman's good works - her "faith and love and holiness, with self control"- somehow contribute to her salvation. Sooo what is this verse actually saying? So read Gen 3:15-16, 1 Corinthians 11:11-12, 1 Tim 5:9-10 and Rev 12:1-6 So having mentioned Eves sin in 1 tim 2:14, Paul seems to be making it clear in v15 that women certainly can be saved. Their salvation is strangely expressed- "through child bearing"- but it is surely promised. There are 3 ways one can understand that verse. 1. Christian woman will not die during the birth of a child, well since Paul uses the verb "saved" in a spiritual sense referring to redemption, that understanding of the verse is unlikely. It's also not in order with the more immediate context in which salvation by the gospel is on view in verses 3-7. 2. That salvation comes through the birth of the Child. Paul may be saying that women, like everyone else, are saved from sin through Jesus, who was born of a woman. It may be pointing to Gen 3:15, where it is promised that Eves son will crush the serpents head. If the woman continues as a believer, with faith, love and holiness, she shares in the salvation secured by the Son of Eve. This interpretation comes from understanding salvation in a spiritual sense, as it ties it to Christ and fits in with the context of v 14-15. 3. Women will be saved by bearing children, parts of 1 Tim describe the lifestyle of a Christian woman (2:9-15, 5:3-16) in that it involves propriety, submission, hospitality, good deeds and having children. Motherhood in other words, is a good deed of a godly woman. It is an expression of living a Holy life in faith and love. V 15 could be saying that by having children and raising them well, a woman "works out" her salvation, akin to Philippians 2:12-13. It is not that she must bear children I order to be saved, but that bringing up children is a godly way for a saved woman to live. This again takes the word 'saved' in a spiritual sense and fits nicely with the context of v9-14 also noting the repetition of 'self-control' in v's 9 and 15. This also fits with Paul's teaching elsewhere in 1 tim 5:14 and Titus 2:4-5, where childhood are seen as a godly path of life for the Christian woman. It's difficult to discern between the latter two understandings as both are consistent with other teachings in 1 Tim and in the rest of the bible. Both fit the context of 1 Tim 2:9-15 and both point in the direction of Christ and living a life that pleases him. So all that being said is Paul dealing with a specific problem in Ephesus at the time of Paul's writing ? Clearly not as it spans all time and is about eternity not just Ephesus, it is clearly a continuum of Gods creation and word. Is it saying that women should never teach anyone, because they are easily deceived ? No because it says women may teach women and children, it's just saying women were not to teach man from the pulpit. Is it saying Paul doesn't like women ? Well clearly no it as Paul is following Gods word. Is it saying well uno things are quite different now because women are better educated and on an equal standing with men in society's eyes ? No, as things have not changed in Gods world. The teaching in 1 Timothy 2:18-15 has implications today and those that seek to implement their own agenda are not being obedient to Gods word and his instructions to his church and we all know how that worked out for Adam and Eve xx
Sooo as God pronounces judgment in Gen 3, the overturned order is emphasised in the way he deals first with the serpent, then with the woman and then with man. In the cursed and FALLEN world, the good order of chapter 2 becomes distorted and bitter- the serpent will attack the woman's offspring and be crushed under his heel; the woman will attempt to master the man, but he will be dominated by him instead; and the man, rather than ruling and tending a bountiful garden, will gain his food by sweat from a hostile earth. There is an order to Gods creation; there is a structure to the relationships between men and women that is built into the very fabric of things. God made Adam first and Eve to be his helper, and both to rule over the rest of the creation. The very essence of Adam and Eves sin was their overturning of this order yet here many are trying to do just that again ????? So before looking at the 3rd theme in Genesis (childbirth) review the first 2. Obviously when one compares Gen 2-3 with 1 Timothy 2, the relationship between the two passages is not difficult to see. Women are being warned NOT to upset the order of creation by usurping authority in the manner that Eve did. What we find more difficult to understand is why this should be expressed through teaching in the church, and what it is about teaching that makes Paul single it out as the authority issue, so do women have to be utterly silent and not say a word in Christian gatherings ?? The answer to that rests in our understanding of what "teaching" is. People tend to think of teaching as merely an intellectual activity- imparting knowledge or giving instruction to someone. However, in the Bible and indeed in other fields as well, teaching involves a special type of relationship between the teacher and the student. Christian teaching involves authority. The teacher moulds the life of the taught: the teacher is given the privilege and responsibility of guiding, informing, persuading, changing and leading. This is why teaching and authority are so closely tied together in 1 Tim 2:12. To be in a teaching relationship with someone is to be exercising some sort of Authority over him or her. Under Christ's authority, and through his word to us in 1 Tim 2:11-12, we are told that woman ought not to teach or have this authority over men. Teaching a man is wrong because by teaching him, the woman enters into a relationship of authority over him. By teaching the man, the woman is falling into Eve's error- turning the order of creation upside down. Teaching is the flip side of learning "quietly with all submissiveness" v11. Eve's sin involved overturning the order of creation and teaching her husband !!. Similarly, Adams sin came from listening to his wife in the sense of heeding and following her instructions. He allowed himself to be taught by her, thereby putting himself under her authority and reversing Gods good ordering of creation. This biblical teaching may seem hard, especially in a society where women aim for, and often achieve, authority over men. But this isn't talking about a position as CEO of a company or a womens capacity in that regard, it's about how the church is to be run. We have to trust that any unhappiness with this instruction springs from our mistrust in the Goodness of Gods word. The word seems far less terrible if 1. We believe in Gods goodness and that he wants the best for us. 2. We don't see quietness and full submission as weakness, but as meekness- not as a demeaning and pathetic thing, but rather as a Holy and life affirming response to how God has created the world. 3. We recognise that Christ is our teacher, AND that he has ordained through his word that men and women relate this way. So then that leaves theme 3 ( childbirth) v15 This verse sounds unusual upon first reading. It appears to be saying that childbirth has something to do with a woman's salvation, it seems to run contrary to the understanding that we are saved only though the death of Jesus Christ, which takes away our sins. It also seems to say that a woman's good works - her "faith and love and holiness, with self control"- somehow contribute to her salvation. Sooo what is this verse actually saying? So read Gen 3:15-16, 1 Corinthians 11:11-12, 1 Tim 5:9-10 and Rev 12:1-6 So having mentioned Eves sin in 1 tim 2:14, Paul seems to be making it clear in v15 that women certainly can be saved. Their salvation is strangely expressed- "through child bearing"- but it is surely promised. There are 3 ways one can understand that verse. 1. Christian woman will not die during the birth of a child, well since Paul uses the verb "saved" in a spiritual sense referring to redemption, that understanding of the verse is unlikely. It's also not in order with the more immediate context in which salvation by the gospel is on view in verses 3-7. 2. That salvation comes through the birth of the Child. Paul may be saying that women, like everyone else, are saved from sin through Jesus, who was born of a woman. It may be pointing to Gen 3:15, where it is promised that Eves son will crush the serpents head. If the woman continues as a believer, with faith, love and holiness, she shares in the salvation secured by the Son of Eve. This interpretation comes from understanding salvation in a spiritual sense, as it ties it to Christ and fits in with the context of v 14-15. 3. Women will be saved by bearing children, parts of 1 Tim describe the lifestyle of a Christian woman (2:9-15, 5:3-16) in that it involves propriety, submission, hospitality, good deeds and having children. Motherhood in other words, is a good deed of a godly woman. It is an expression of living a Holy life in faith and love. V 15 could be saying that by having children and raising them well, a woman "works out" her salvation, akin to Philippians 2:12-13. It is not that she must bear children I order to be saved, but that bringing up children is a godly way for a saved woman to live. This again takes the word 'saved' in a spiritual sense and fits nicely with the context of v9-14 also noting the repetition of 'self-control' in v's 9 and 15. This also fits with Paul's teaching elsewhere in 1 tim 5:14 and Titus 2:4-5, where childhood are seen as a godly path of life for the Christian woman. It's difficult to discern between the latter two understandings as both are consistent with other teachings in 1 Tim and in the rest of the bible. Both fit the context of 1 Tim 2:9-15 and both point in the direction of Christ and living a life that pleases him. So all that being said is Paul dealing with a specific problem in Ephesus at the time of Paul's writing ? Clearly not as it spans all time and is about eternity not just Ephesus, it is clearly a continuum of Gods creation and word. Is it saying that women should never teach anyone, because they are easily deceived ? No because it says women may teach women and children, it's just saying women were not to teach man from the pulpit. Is it saying Paul doesn't like women ? Well clearly no it as Paul is following Gods word. Is it saying well uno things are quite different now because women are better educated and on an equal standing with men in society's eyes ? No, as things have not changed in Gods world. The teaching in 1 Timothy 2:18-15 has implications today and those that seek to implement their own agenda are not being obedient to Gods word and his instructions to his church and we all know how that worked out for Adam and Eve xx
I read most of your post. I suggest Judges 4 and 5, else my essay on Deborah. My essay might help you understand the 'authority' matter correctly. Something not totally clear from the book of Judges. I can also post regarding 'teaching' if desired. Regardless, it's basically the falsehood of Complementarianism that you posted about. Sadly I read such posts every day.
Here is the Divinely approved Truth especially written for the Elected daughters of Almighty God:. ...... "11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" 1 Timothy 2:10-14 (KJV) That is the TRUTH, many now do not like it, and refuse to comply, but there it is. And again we plainly see: "As in all the congregations of the saints, 34 women should remain silent in the churches. They are *not allowed to speak*" *[To talk, i.e. UTTER WORDS :- PREACH, say, speak (after), talk, tell, utter. -Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary] "But must be in *submission, as the Law says." *[To subordinate; reflexive to obey :- be under obedience (obedient), -Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary] "35 If they want to enquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is *disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." *[A shameful thing, i.e. indecorum :- shame.-Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary] 36 Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37 If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, **let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's** command" 1 Corinthians 14:33-37 (ANIV) Anyone in here "spiritually gifted" ? So again that is the TRUTH arrogant rebellious feminists may not like it, but there it is. Any feministic attempt at deviation is against the Truth and the commandment of the Lord.
So apparently in a society where women were considered zero ,a very powerfu business woman gets to deliver the letter to the Roman's ? He's obviously not satisfied with his anwer,seems to me that this is one of the few times NT.Wright could learn from Jordan Peterson.
You ladies please bear in mind, on your coming Judgment Day you will be judged on your willingness and obedience to the Divinely endorsed Scripture teachings and instructions that follow. Now, regarding the false teaching for the emancipation of women in the Christian fraternity. Such 21st-century contrived beliefs are in contravention and defiance of the Lord's command for women to remain silent in the church assemblies. "As [is the practice] in all the churches of the saints (God's people), 34 The women should keep quiet in the churches, for they are not authorized to speak, but should take a secondary and subordinate place, just as the Law also says. 35 But if there is anything they want to learn, they should ask their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to talk in church [ for her to usurp and exercise authority over men in the church]. 36 What! Did the word of the Lord originate with you [Corinthians], or has it reached only you? 37 If anyone thinks and claims that he is a prophet [filled with and governed by the Holy Spirit of God and inspired to interpret the divine will and purpose in preaching or teaching] or has any other spiritual endowment, let him understand (recognize and acknowledge) What what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord**. 38 But if anyone disregards or does not recognize [ that it is a command of the Lord], he is disregarded and not recognized [he is one whom God knows not]. 1 Corinthians 14:33-38 (AMPLIFIED ,BIBLE) Thus if any insist on disregarding the Lord's command for a woman's silence they have become "One whom God knows not" Which is a most undignified and ungodly position any man or woman could possibly find themselves. For even St. Paul's instruction makes it quite plain that women are forbidden to teach men and must not usurp their God given authority. "11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" 1 Timothy 2:10-14 (KJV)
@@Bible33AD it’s nothing to do with being a Pharisee, it’s about obeying Gods word. God has ordained that only men are to serve in positions of spiritual teaching authority in the church. This does not imply men are better teachers or that women are inferior or less intelligent. It is simply the way God designed the church to function. Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership-in their lives and through their words. Women are to take a less authoritative role. Women are encouraged to teach other women (Titus 2:3-5). The Bible also does not restrict women from teaching children. The only activity women are restricted from is teaching or having spiritual authority over men. This bars women from serving as pastors to men. This does not make women less important, by any means; rather, it gives them a ministry focus more in agreement with God’s plan and gifts.
Women can be rabbi (teachers), but a rabbi is not a priest (authority to perform rites/sacraments); women absolutely cannot be priests. End of discussion.
The demand by woman for equality in the Church of England has helped destroy it !
Rev'd Wright may say more about this on the full talk, but I would add:
In the O.T., there were female prophets such as Miriam, Deborah and Huldah. (Exod.15:20; Jud.4:4-5; 2 Kings 22:14-20) Deborah was not merely a prophet, she was also a judge, that is, she interpreted and applied the Law/Torah when settling legal disputes. A new and 'better covenant' (Heb.7:22) would not lower the status of women! On the contrary, the Holy Spirit's anointing is for all ages, all social classes and both genders (Acts 2:17-18). The gift of prophecy is mentioned as applying to women as well as men, not one but twice! Paul expected women to prophesy (1 Cor.11:5), and they did! (Acts 21:9) You cannot prophesy - that is, proclaim the word of the Lord silently, with your mouth closed!
Romans 12:4-8 lists various gifts, including prophesying, teaching and leadership, which Paul encourages those who possess them to use. Neither the word 'man' nor any male pronouns are in the original Greek! There is no suggestion that some gifts are only for men. Both men and women should use whatever gifts they have!
Priscilla taught Apollos, a man! (Acts 18:24-26). Paul tells Timothy to ‘treat older women as mothers’ (1 Tim.5:1-2). Timothy was taught the Scriptures by his mother and grandmother (2 Tim.1:5; 3:14-15), which means that younger men, even those in positions of leadership like Timothy, should be willing to learn from the knowledge and experience of older women. (The Greek word translated ‘older women’ is simply the feminine form of ‘elders’, so clearly the early church had female elders!)
1 Cor.14:34-36 is part of a section, which starts at 12:1, in which Paul addresses questions raised by the Corinthians about the use spiritual gifts (see also 7:1, 8:1, 16:1). He may be quoting something said by the Corinthians, and correcting their misunderstanding. After all, the law says nothing about women having to be silent, and Paul made it clear that we are no longer in bondage to the law. He can't possibly have meant that women must be totally silent, because he obviously expected them to participate verbally in church gatherings, by praying and prophesying. He would not contradict himself!
1 Timothy 2:8-15, some very pertinent questions:
- If Paul simply wanted to say that women should not have authority over men, why does he use the very unusual word 'authentein', instead of the normal word for authority, 'exousia', used throughout the rest of the N.T.? What does 'authentein' really mean?
- Why should Adam being created before Eve mean women may not lead or teach? Humans were created last, yet were given joint, equal authority over the rest of creation (Gen.1:26-28). If the order in which they were created is the deciding factor, then woman should have authority over man!
- Why should a deliberate rebel (Adam), who sinned knowingly, be more fitted to lead and teach than someone who was deceived?
- What does verse 15 mean? That godly women will not die in childbirth? But they sometimes do! That having babies is the way for women to receive eternal salvation? Clearly nonsense! This verse is notoriously difficult to translate. The Greek literally reads: But ‘she (singular) will be saved (or restored) through the birth of the child, if they (plural) continue in faith etc.’
The best way to understand this passage:
Paul was writing to Timothy in Ephesus which was the centre of the cult of the goddess Artemis (Diana), the goddess of hunting, but also seen as the great mother-goddess, the source of life. False teaching was infecting the church: myths, anti-marriage ideas and an obsession with genealogies. (1:4-7; 4:1-3; Tit.3:9). Paul had left Timothy there to deal with the false teachers (1:4-7). One popular heresy was that Eve was created before Adam, and that she gave life to his lifeless body. Also that she, by eating the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, received enlightenment from the serpent, which she then passed on to Adam. Naturally, this idea was attractive to women, and tended to be taught and spread by them. (The word 'men' in 1:3 should be 'people'.)
The word 'authentein' has the connotation of originating or being the source of something (compare our word 'authentic'). The Greek in v.12 is the genitive ‘of’ not ‘over’ (men). Hence, what Paul seems to be saying is:
“[At this time] a woman should learn in quietness and full submission.” (Until they know what they are talking about.) “I do not permit a woman to teach that she is the originator of man. She must be silent [on this issue],” (because it isn’t true and it is women who are teaching it!) “For [the truth is] Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived [with Eve bringing him enlightenment]; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner [not a saviour!] But she [womankind, of whom Eve is the representative head] will be restored [to her original status of equality and/or position of honour] through the birth of the child”, (i.e. a specific child, the Messiah, the promised seed of the woman, brought into the world by a woman, Gen. 3:15; Gal.4:4; Luke 1:28, 45), “if they continue in faith, love etc.” (showing that their faith is real, see James 2:22).
Understood this way, we see that Paul is correcting a heresy, which he often did in his letters, not giving a totally illogical reason why women may not lead or teach!
@@terrencehill3620 In 2 Tim.1:5, Paul writes, "I have been reminded of your sincere faith, which first lived in your grandmother Lois and in your mother Eunice and, I am persuaded, now lives in you also." Now consider that in the light of 2 Tim.3:14-15, "But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from INFANCY, you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Messiah Jesus."
Clearly, it must have been Timothy's mother and grandmother who taught him the scriptures - from a very young age! Who else could have taught him, given that his father was a Greek? (Acts 16:1-3).
@@terrencehill3620 Please do not lecture me about a correct reading of Scripture when you can't even read it correctly yourself! 'Samuel became a King ...' ?? Er ... where is that in the Bible? Samuel was a prophet (1 Sam.3:19-21) and the last judge of Israel who anointed Saul as the first king. And he did not grow up 'in the church (!!) under Eli', it was in the Tabernacle.
In any case, what has Samuel being taught by Eli rather than his mother got to do with who taught Timothy? Nothing! Timothy was not brought up in the temple by priests, he was brought up by his own family in Lystra. He couldn't even have been taught at a local synagogue because there wasn't one in Lystra. Had there been, Paul and Barnabas would have gone there first, as was their custom on arriving in a new city. The Jews who opposed them came from Antioch and Iconium, not a local synagogue (Acts 13:14; 14:1, 19).
In Jewish homes, it was the responsibility of both parents to teach their children the Scriptures, and sons were told, "Do not forsake your mother's teaching." (Prov.1:8). Since Timothy's father was a Greek, it MUST have been his mother and grandmother who taught him the Scriptures, and that is what Paul was referring to when he wrote, "Continue in what you have learned ... because you know those (plural) from whom you learned it, and how FROM INFANCY you have known the holy Scriptures." Paul had not known Timothy 'from infancy', but only as a young adult. Of course he instructed his protégé to take careful note of his own teaching concerning the gospel (2 Tim.1:13), but that is NOT what he means in 3:14-17.
I really do not have time to continue a discussion with someone who is wilfully blind to the truth.
Edit: P.S. It now appears that Terrence Hill, having realised his silly mistake, has removed the comments to which I responded.
I think you are mistaken.
Paul is not correcting a heresy here. This is certainly not the orthodox interpretation at all - a view which the church has held for nearly 2000yrs.
And this is a pretty consistent track record by the church on this topic, which is important to recognise.
But if there is no problem with women being in positions of leadership, why does the Bible testify to the contrary?
When you consider Deborah. Absolutely, a woman who understood Gods ordained hierarchy. She tried to get Barak to lead. He was afraid. He wouldn’t go to battle without her coming with him. And this judgement that she pronounces over him, is that the glory of that battle would go not to a man, but to a woman. The significance is that it was to his shame.
In Isaiah God speaks of children and women, being in leadership in Israel, and this being part of Gods judgement over the nation.
“My people- infants are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, your guides mislead you and they have swallowed up the course of your paths.”
Isaiah 3:12 ESV
As for Paul.
“And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.”
1 Timothy 2:9-12, 14- KJV
Paul interestingly makes his argument on the basis of creation. He brings it right back to the garden of Eden. You honestly have to ask yourself why does he do that?
Why does Paul choose to highlight that it was Eve who was deceived? Bring the meaning back to Creation, making the point applicable for all time, not just one point in history, where woman lived in a patriarchal society.
“For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is SHAMEFUL for a woman to speak in church.”
1 Corinthians 14:33-35 ESV
αἰσχρός - disgraceful, shameful
Definition:
strictly, deformed, opposed to καλός; metaph. shameful, indecent, dishonorable, vile, 1 Cor. 11:6; 14:35; Eph. 5:12; Tit. 1:11*
You cannot ignore these Scriptures or their meaning.
“The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; THAT THEY MAY TEACH (WHO?) THE YOUNG WOMEN to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.”
Titus 2:3-5 KJV
ELDERS must be… each time, the scripture presumes that this office is only open to a MAN.
“An elder must be blameless, faithful to HIS WIFE, a MAN whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.”
Titus 1:6
“The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, HE desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, THE HUSBAND OF ONE WIFE, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,”
1 Timothy 3:1-2
Consider Charles Elliot’s commentary - on this issue.
“And Adam was not deceived.--Priority in creation was the ground alleged by St. Paul as the reason why the woman was never to exercise authority over man, the eldest born of God. "Adam was not deceived;" the Apostle now refers to the general basis of his direction respecting the exclusion of women from all public praying and teaching contained in 1Timothy 2:9-12. The argument here is a singular one--Adam and Eve both sinned, but Adam was not deceived. He sinned, quite aware all the while of the magnitude of the sin he was voluntarily committing. Eve, on the other hand, was completely, thoroughly deceived (the preposition with which the Greek verb is compounded here conveying the idea of thoroughness)--she succumbed to the serpent's deceit. Both were involved in the sin, but only one (Eve) allowed herself to be deluded. So Bengel, "Deceptio indicat minus robur in intellectu, atque hic nervus est cur mulieri non liceat docere." Prof. Reynolds thus comments on the argument of the Apostle:--"This may sound to our ears a far-fetched argument, when used to discountenance female usurpation of intellectual supremacy. It was, however, a method current at the time to look for and find in the Scriptures the concrete expressions of almost all philosophical judgments. At the present day we could hardly find a more vivid illustration of the essential difference between the masculine and feminine nature. If there be this distinction between the sexes, that distinction still furnishes the basis of an argument and a reason for the advice here rendered. The catastrophe of Eden is the beacon for all generations when the sexes repeat the folly of Eve and Adam, and exchange their distinctive position and functions."
Men and women ARE CREATED DIFFERENT. Women ARE NOT LESS than men.
But clearly God has designated different roles. People can wrongly assume those different roles suggest inferiority for women.
People can wrongly assume that the roles were designated on account of men being more qualified.
God has designated what he wishes. And that’s that. There were other men who seemed more qualified to be king of Israel in the sight of Samuel. But God wanted David.
What God wants might not make sense to us.
There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death. (Proverbs 14:12)
Is Christ less than his Father? Yet he submits to the Father. Are they not equal? They have different roles, yet they are ONE.
Again - let’s consider ….
12 disciples ALL MEN.
The Apostles ALL MEN.
WHY?
When they needed to fill the position of Judas, why was a woman not considered?
The women were there with them.
BUT.. again,
“Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the MEN who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.””
Acts 1:21-22 NIV
“So they nominated two MEN: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias.”
Acts 1:23 NIV
Why was a woman not considered?
Why is the MAN to be the head of the wife? Why is the wife called to submit to the husband? Are they not equal?
Why did Satan choose to speak with Eve not Adam?
Why does Paul choose to highlight that it was Eve who was deceived? Bring the meaning back to Creation, making the point applicable for all time, not just one point in history, where woman lived in a patriarchal society.
It’s God making the point by these things being found in scripture. As all scripture is God breathed.
I appreciate where you are coming from, and there are scenarios which are going be more nuanced. But just because there exists a few exceptions to the rule does not make it normative for the church and what is prescribed by God in holy scripture.
And I don’t think it’s any coincidence that this particular issue started to be seriously challenged in earnest post feminism.
Seems like in every video I see of this guy, he’s explaining why the Bible doesn’t really mean what it’s says.
But at all. He just adds the context that is often sorely lacking in most Christian’s understanding.
NT Wright is New Testament Wrong nearly every time. He’s a false teacher.
It brings me comfort when I disagree with such a fine mind.
Brilliant! I’m with you Dr, Wright.
Thank you for quoting Ken Bailey, too. Most in the West interpret the Bible with their Western mind forgetting that the Bible was written from an eastern context.
Sadly, there are also those who weaponize those verses against women, too.
It's amazing how the modernist church uncovers this correct teaching all the Apostles, the Church Fathers and all of Tradition got wrong! So amazing. I can't wait for the age of increasing church attendance in churches that embrace this correct teaching and all the increasing orthodoxy this will usher in.
Fundamentalists take the words of scripture, and completely ignore the context, the time period, the audience, and the culture. They ignore what NT Wright is saying, and just repeat scripture, as if that proves their point. Thank you NT Wright for making sense of Paul, and help the seemingly disparate messages of scripture to align for us modern people 2000 years later.
th-cam.com/video/xKxvOMOmHeI/w-d-xo.html
You’re telling me the church was wrong on this issue for over 1500 years?! And only now are we enlightened to see the true meaning? Opposed to the people who spoke the original languages…?
OK.
@@LaMOi1 Right - and it just so happens that we are finding that we are wrong at a time when the culture is telling us that we are wrong, and when egalitarianism is by far the majority view of the surrounding culture? I’m sure this is all about our biblical exegesis and has nothing at all whatsoever to do with the culture.
This guy is brilliant! Thank you for posting.
The Bible expressly states, AS MANY AS RECEIVED HIM, TO THEM HE GAVE THE POWER TO BECOME THE SONS OF GOD! there's no indication of God seeing men and women differently! This is a tactic of the devil to create confusion in the church!
You don’t know scripture, nor church history.
@@LaMOi1 I'm so glad that you do know the Scriptures, because it's upon your knowledge you shall be judged!
You should try to let scripture interpret scripture, maybe you might learn something about culture and customs! Bless you!
@@cliftonemanuellaurence8874 God has chosen distinct roles for both men and women that they may complement each other in a way that most glorifies Himself. Women may be fragile in some regards, but so are many things that are most precious to us. Men and women should work together, each fulfilling their respective, distinct roles, for the common goal of glorifying God. Spiritually, men and women are absolutely equal. Physically, they are obviously not equal. Scripture is clear that women are not to teach men. Nt Wrong is wrong on this as he is on many other matters. The Word of God proclaims, “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent” (1 Timothy 2:11-12). In the church, God assigns different roles to men and women. This is a result of the way mankind was created and the way in which sin entered the world (1 Timothy 2:13-14). God, through the apostle Paul, restricts women from serving in roles of teaching and/or having spiritual authority over men. This precludes women from serving as pastors over men, since pastoring definitely includes preaching, teaching publicly, and exercising spiritual authority.
Do you know why brierly has Nt Wright on his show ? Because his wife is a female pastor. The structure of 1 Timothy 2:11-14 makes the reason why women cannot be pastors perfectly clear. Verse 13 begins with “for,” giving the “cause” of Paul’s statement in verses 11-12. Why should women not teach or have authority over men? Because “Adam was created first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived” (verses 13-14). God created Adam first and then created Eve to be a “helper” for Adam. The order of creation has universal application in the family (Ephesians 5:22-33) and in the church.
The fact that Eve was deceived is also given as a reason for women not serving as pastors or having spiritual authority over men (1 Timothy 2:14). This does not mean that women are gullible or that they are all more easily deceived than men. If all women are more easily deceived, why would they be allowed to teach children (who are easily deceived) and other women (who are supposedly more easily deceived)? The text simply says that women are not to teach men or have spiritual authority over men because Eve was deceived. God has chosen to give men the primary teaching authority in the church.
Many women excel in gifts of hospitality, mercy, teaching, evangelism, and helping/serving. Much of the ministry of the local church depends on women. Women in the church are not restricted from public praying or prophesying (1 Corinthians 11:5), only from having spiritual teaching authority over men. The Bible nowhere restricts women from exercising the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12). Women, just as much as men, are called to minister to others, to demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), and to proclaim the gospel to the lost (Matthew 28:18-20; Acts 1:8; 1 Peter 3:15).
God has ordained that only men are to serve in positions of spiritual teaching authority in the church. This does not imply men are better teachers or that women are inferior or less intelligent. It is simply the way God designed the church to function. Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership-in their lives and through their words. Women are to take a less authoritative role. Women are encouraged to teach other women (Titus 2:3-5). The Bible also does not restrict women from teaching children. The only activity women are restricted from is teaching or having spiritual authority over men. This bars women from serving as pastors to men. This does not make women less important, by any means; rather, it gives them a ministry focus more in agreement with God’s plan and gifts.
@@cliftonemanuellaurence8874
12 disciples ALL men. Apostles ALL men…
WHY?
Why is that? If it really doesn’t matter?
Why after Judas needed replacing, why was the post not open to a woman?
Why does scripture presume an Elder to be a MAN?
Why has the church been consistent on this issue for over 1500yrs.
That’s a long time…
Any conincidence this issue started to be seriously challenged post feminism..?
The Bible is pretty consistent on this issue too. You have a few instances which prove the exception rather than the rule - and you then ignore all the testimony of scripture and church history?
In Isaiah God speaks of children and women, being in leadership in Israel, and this being part of Gods judgement over the nation
“My people- infants are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, your guides mislead you and they have swallowed up the course of your paths.”
Isaiah 3:12 ESV
And how can you dispute this scripture.
“In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
…AND ADAM WAS NOT DECEIVED, BUT THE WOMAN BEING DECEIVED WAS IN TRANSGRESSION.”
1 Timothy 2:9-12, 14- KJV
Paul interestingly makes his argument on the basis of creation. He brings it right back to the garden of Eden. That couldn’t be clearer.
“For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is SHAMEFUL for a woman to speak in church.”
1 Corinthians 14:33-35 ESV
αἰσχρός - disgraceful, shameful
Definition:
strictly, deformed, opposed to καλός; metaph. shameful, indecent, dishonorable, vile, 1 Cor. 11:6; 14:35; Eph. 5:12; Tit. 1:11*
You cannot ignore these Scriptures or their meaning.
To be CLEAR. Woman are not LESS than men.
But it’s clear we have different God ordained roles even in the church.
So many words... so little clarity.
Sad! NT wright is usually so good. 😢😢
His speculation about Phoebe is unsupported and unwarranted and is a "straw man" argument in support of his progressive theology. Smart does not equal right. Paul said, and we all agree that "[a]ll Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16. If that is correct, then why don't we consider 1 Timothy 2:9-15 as equals inspired and of considerable importance as the prior verse. Because NT wright is a prelate in the Church of England, a church that is a branch of the government, he cannot support a correct interpretation of the verses regarding women. Paul does not limit the activities of women outside the church only in the church and gives his inspired reason.
The Holy Spirit was given to instruct, comfort and convict. Wright works and believes contra the Holy Spirit.
gameover boys, checkmate, God bless you guys. Debate is over.
Proverbs 7:4 KJV
[4] Say unto wisdom, Thou art my SISTER; and call understanding thy KINSWOMAN:
Proversb 1:20-21
[20]Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth HER VOICE in the streets:
[21]SHE CRIETH in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,
Revelation 22:17 KJV
[17] And the Spirit and the BRIDE say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
she cries in the chief place of concoure. This is a woman preaching, kinswoman, a sister the bible says. And you have many more examples, Mary, Anna the prophetess, and etc. Too many scriptures. Also us, we are the Bride of Christ, the bride of Christ is on the earth. Doing what? Preaching and teaching the kingdom of God. Jesus isnt married to a husband, hes married to a bride. A man in the body of Christ, is considered the bride of Christ.
Sorry, the Bible is contradictory. That is why there is no agreement on the role of women. 1 Timothy clearly teaches that women are to be excluded. Other passages clearly teach equality. There are reasons to doubt that Paul actually wrote many of the epistles attributed to him. The Bible is not the inspired Word of God. It is a human document recording the opinions of the faith communities about God. They got some things wrong. Sorry, most of the things that we are taught about the Bible, God and Jesus is just not true. A lot of new evidence has come to light in the last 50 years.
The Jewish women were under law of Moses,the gentile women only had 4rules given by the church in Jerusalem,right?they were fighting then,even about Jews,and Greek believers ,being together,?right?
Can we not consider the consistency of church history on this issue? And we are more enlightened now are we?
Consider women and children leaders were part of God Judgement over Israel.
“As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.”
Isaiah 3:12 KJV
Consider the first line of Deborah’s song…
“When the princes take the lead in Israel, when the people volunteer, bless the LORD. JUDGES 5:2
Then the proof texts…
“In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
And ADAM WAS NOT DECEIVED BUT THE WOMAN BEING DECEIVED was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.”
1 Timothy 2:9-12, 14-15 KJV
“For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is SHAMEFUL for a woman to speak in church.”
1 Corinthians 14:33-35 ESV
αἰσχρός - disgraceful, shameful
Definition:
strictly, deformed, opposed to καλός; metaph. shameful, indecent, dishonorable, vile, 1 Cor. 11:6; 14:35; Eph. 5:12; Tit. 1:11*
“The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; that they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.”
Titus 2:3-5 KJV
you wrote:
Consider women and children leaders were part of God Judgement over Israel.
Deborah was a good judge. I did an essay on her which
can be posted.
The gospel is a teaching. The first and most important of all. If a woman can teach a man the gospel, she can teach all the lesser teachings to men. This is logic.
Even in the teaching/preaching of the gospel, a man may ask a woman
about something scriptural/spiritual. So if the man asks about the so-called
7 deadly sins, she can't say a word? If indeed she can speak to him about this
as an unsaved man, then she can't once he becomes saved?
@@8784-l3b
Let me ask you - the 12 disciples, all of the apostles, all men.
Why do you think that was? Was this a mistake?
If God wasn’t bothered man or woman being leaders within the church, why only men.
Woman are not - with only a few exceptions, Deborah. At a time when Israel was in a very bad place. It was not normative for the church/Gods people.
The church has been very consistent on this issue for 100s of years. So they got it wrong did they??
Deborah is a fine example of a godly woman - tried to get the king to lead. But he was afraid.
So what happened..? She pronounces a judgement over him. That the glory of the battle would not go to a man but a woman! The purpose? It was meant to shame him…
And your point there is confused - why would a woman not share the gospel with an unbeliever? That’s a bit of a straw man.
Paul is talking about normative leadership structure and places of authority within the church. Women are not permitted to teach, or hold places of authority.
Scripture is clear on this.
@@LaMOi1
you wrote:
Deborah is a fine example of a godly woman - tried to get the king to lead. But he was afraid.
Barak was the commander of the army. Deborah was over him.
The first king of Israel was still in the future.
you wrote:
Paul is talking about normative leadership structure and places of authority within the church. Women are not permitted to teach, or hold places of authority.
As I wrote:
The gospel is a teaching. The first and most important of all. If a woman can teach a man the gospel, she can teach all the lesser teachings to men. This is logic.
I addressed the elder/teacher matter in my post 'Complementarianism'. I've put it
up a few times at different videos. I can paste it in here if I
did not already.
Also, again I mention Deborah. What is the correct and proper
teaching of her during the time of the Old Covenant? I believe
that is very important to understand. Certainly a judge was above
any pastor/elder/whatever in our time.
@@8784-l3b
So church history means nothing?
The consistency of the church on this issue, is well evidenced. It only started to be challenged in the 60s-70s in this century!! That’s a consistent record of nearly 2000 yrs!
It’s the height of arrogance to think we are now more enlightened than the church fathers.
And you keep repeating your posts, but not acknowledging the plain teaching of scripture.
You just have to open your eyes.
Why 12 disciples had to be men? If it really didn’t matter. ..?
Why does scripture presume any elder in the church will be a man?
Again Deborah was a Judge (yes a godly woman) at a time when Israel was in a bad way.
Look at scripture - females leaders were not the norm. At all - how can you even dispute this? Clearly they are the exception at times when Israel was a mess.
Woman and children leaders was God judgement. This is clear.
Just because there is one or two instances in scripture where you have a woman instructing a man in the gospel? How does that overthrow the overwhelming teaching of scripture and set a precedent ??
That’s really bad exegesis.
“In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
And ADAM WAS NOT DECEIVED BUT THE WOMAN BEING DECEIVED was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.”
1 Timothy 2:9-12, 14-15 KJV
What do you do with this and the scripture above?
You seem to want it to be true but the scriptures testify against your position.
Submit to the word of God. Not the present culture.
It’s also worth noting you keep appealing to logic? I think there’s many instances my God does things that certainly won’t seem logical to us.
So as I said, you just have to be a slave to scripture. And where the scripture says things that you don’t even understand, or don’t agree with, then you have to go back to God. But ultimately submit to his word.
@@LaMOi1
Complementarianism
That false and confusing teaching, that states Christian women are less than
Christian men in a spiritual way, but they really aren't, but they really are.
The complementarian teaching prohibits a Christian woman from holding
certain positions in a church. They can't be elders neither can
they teach men. So why is that?
The false teaching makes it clear that the priesthood of the New Covenant
is tiered. There is a hierarchy. Those that are higher, the men, can be in
leadership positions, like elder. They can teach other men. Those in the
lower tier can not be in leadership positions, like elder. They are prohibited
from teaching men, because the men are in the higher tier. It wouldn't make
any sense.
A new believer is automatically assigned their level, higher or lower,
at the moment of salvation, as a birthright. Their gender determines
their tier.
A church, is either a group of Christian men or a group of Christian men and women.
A church can never be a group of Christian women, because it would be
a group of only those in the lower tier. It would have no elders.
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
-excerpt 1 Peter 2
Since the teaching states that women are spiritually inferior to men, but
they aren't, but they are, when did that start?
But I do not allow a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a wrongdoer.
-excerpt 1 Timothy 2
It started with the first woman. She was deceived, and sinned because of it. So we
have a teaching that accepts that men and women are fallen beings. Both genders
are sinful by nature. However women are different. They are lacking the ability
that men have to judge if some situation, some concept or teaching is sinful. This
inability was passed down from Eve to all women. It remains to this day. A woman
in our time was 'lacking' from birth, even from the womb.
So what can be done? Nothing according to Complementarianism. That is because
an anointing of that powerful masculine being called the Holy Spirit, is just not
sufficient. Even the Holy Spirit can not elevate even one Christian woman to the
spiritually superior level of a Christian man.
If Jesus had appointed one of His twelve apostles to be a woman we wouldn't be having this discussion, but He didn't! Women can certainly teach other women and children but as a general rule, women should leave the teaching of men to the men. It has nothing to do with gifting just as a gifted man who does not have his house in order should not teach. Just as Jesus is not offended that His Father is over Him a woman should not be offended that her husband is over her. Especially in this day and age when there is so much gender confusion, men thinking they are women and women thinking they are men, Satan is destroying God's order in families and God's family!
Then why did God make Deborah a judge?
If a man would not accept the verdict given by a judge,
the penalty was execution, according to Deuteronomy 17.
(I did a short essay on Deborah should you want it posted.)
This is the truth. There's no ambiguity about it. Women and men are DIFFERENT because we serve different roles. But Satan twists "different" into "unequal".
@@TheSwordandPearl Complementarianism
is a false teaching. I did a post on that should
you want to check it out.
Regardless, Deborah was taught for about 1000
years. I submit to anyone, that if they can't explain
the correct and proper understanding of her story,
as it was taught in the time of the Old Covenant,
they won't understand Christian women's ministry
in the New Covenant.
(I wrote a short essay on Deborah which can be posted
if there is interest.)
Yeah… he’s just wrong. Mike winger explores this on his channel explores the egalitarian and complimentarian debate for 20+ hours without straw manning either side.
I went into seminary wanting to be egalitarian…… but none of the egalitarians I met held consistently to orthodoxy and usually ended up trading the gospel for radical feminism or social justice
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 Peter 2:1
"Game over" because Mary Magdalene were told to tell the disciples what Jesus had said? It's amazing that such a learned man can suddenly reason so childishly. Wright apparently favors women priests, and that makes him a false prophet on that issue. It is sad.
It's simple but as usual theologians are making it complex and hard, women in the Church or in family or in any position, the order is that God is first, and man is second and the woman is third. So, women aren't allowed in Public ministry, there's no scriptural support, and it's not necessary, NT Wright is just collecting all of the scriptures concerning women & trying to include them in the ministry as JESUS didn't choose even a single woman as His Apostle. In fact, Paul goes back to the free- fall scenario and says that he's not allowing women to say anything in the Church but keep silent.
Did Jesus teach a two-tiered priesthood? That is apparently
what you support.
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
-excerpt 1 Peter 2
Sooo as God pronounces judgment in Gen 3, the overturned order is emphasised in the way he deals first with the serpent, then with the woman and then with man. In the cursed and FALLEN world, the good order of chapter 2 becomes distorted and bitter- the serpent will attack the woman's offspring and be crushed under his heel; the woman will attempt to master the man, but he will be dominated by him instead; and the man, rather than ruling and tending a bountiful garden, will gain his food by sweat from a hostile earth.
There is an order to Gods creation; there is a structure to the relationships between men and women that is built into the very fabric of things. God made Adam first and Eve to be his helper, and both to rule over the rest of the creation. The very essence of Adam and Eves sin was their overturning of this order yet here many are trying to do just that again ?????
So before looking at the 3rd theme in Genesis (childbirth) review the first 2. Obviously when one compares Gen 2-3 with 1 Timothy 2, the relationship between the two passages is not difficult to see. Women are being warned NOT to upset the order of creation by usurping authority in the manner that Eve did. What we find more difficult to understand is why this should be expressed through teaching in the church, and what it is about teaching that makes Paul single it out as the authority issue, so do women have to be utterly silent and not say a word in Christian gatherings ??
The answer to that rests in our understanding of what "teaching" is. People tend to think of teaching as merely an intellectual activity- imparting knowledge or giving instruction to someone. However, in the Bible and indeed in other fields as well, teaching involves a special type of relationship between the teacher and the student.
Christian teaching involves authority. The teacher moulds the life of the taught: the teacher is given the privilege and responsibility of guiding, informing, persuading, changing and leading. This is why teaching and authority are so closely tied together in 1 Tim 2:12. To be in a teaching relationship with someone is to be exercising some sort of Authority over him or her.
Under Christ's authority, and through his word to us in 1 Tim 2:11-12, we are told that woman ought not to teach or have this authority over men. Teaching a man is wrong because by teaching him, the woman enters into a relationship of authority over him. By teaching the man, the woman is falling into Eve's error- turning the order of creation upside down. Teaching is the flip side of learning "quietly with all submissiveness" v11. Eve's sin involved overturning the order of creation and teaching her husband !!. Similarly, Adams sin came from listening to his wife in the sense of heeding and following her instructions. He allowed himself to be taught by her, thereby putting himself under her authority and reversing Gods good ordering of creation.
This biblical teaching may seem hard, especially in a society where women aim for, and often achieve, authority over men. But this isn't talking about a position as CEO of a company or a womens capacity in that regard, it's about how the church is to be run. We have to trust that any unhappiness with this instruction springs from our mistrust in the Goodness of Gods word. The word seems far less terrible if
1. We believe in Gods goodness and that he wants the best for us.
2. We don't see quietness and full submission as weakness, but as meekness- not as a demeaning and pathetic thing, but rather as a Holy and life affirming response to how God has created the world.
3. We recognise that Christ is our teacher, AND that he has ordained through his word that men and women relate this way.
So then that leaves theme 3 ( childbirth) v15
This verse sounds unusual upon first reading. It appears to be saying that childbirth has something to do with a woman's salvation, it seems to run contrary to the understanding that we are saved only though the death of Jesus Christ, which takes away our sins. It also seems to say that a woman's good works - her "faith and love and holiness, with self control"- somehow contribute to her salvation. Sooo what is this verse actually saying?
So read Gen 3:15-16, 1 Corinthians 11:11-12, 1 Tim 5:9-10 and Rev 12:1-6
So having mentioned Eves sin in 1 tim 2:14, Paul seems to be making it clear in v15 that women certainly can be saved. Their salvation is strangely expressed- "through child bearing"- but it is surely promised. There are 3 ways one can understand that verse.
1. Christian woman will not die during the birth of a child, well since Paul uses the verb "saved" in a spiritual sense referring to redemption, that understanding of the verse is unlikely. It's also not in order with the more immediate context in which salvation by the gospel is on view in verses 3-7.
2. That salvation comes through the birth of the Child. Paul may be saying that women, like everyone else, are saved from sin through Jesus, who was born of a woman. It may be pointing to Gen 3:15, where it is promised that Eves son will crush the serpents head. If the woman continues as a believer, with faith, love and holiness, she shares in the salvation secured by the Son of Eve. This interpretation comes from understanding salvation in a spiritual sense, as it ties it to Christ and fits in with the context of v 14-15.
3. Women will be saved by bearing children, parts of 1 Tim describe the lifestyle of a Christian woman (2:9-15, 5:3-16) in that it involves propriety, submission, hospitality, good deeds and having children. Motherhood in other words, is a good deed of a godly woman. It is an expression of living a Holy life in faith and love. V 15 could be saying that by having children and raising them well, a woman "works out" her salvation, akin to Philippians 2:12-13. It is not that she must bear children I order to be saved, but that bringing up children is a godly way for a saved woman to live. This again takes the word 'saved' in a spiritual sense and fits nicely with the context of v9-14 also noting the repetition of 'self-control' in v's 9 and 15. This also fits with Paul's teaching elsewhere in 1 tim 5:14 and Titus 2:4-5, where childhood are seen as a godly path of life for the Christian woman.
It's difficult to discern between the latter two understandings as both are consistent with other teachings in 1 Tim and in the rest of the bible. Both fit the context of 1 Tim 2:9-15 and both point in the direction of Christ and living a life that pleases him.
So all that being said is Paul dealing with a specific problem in Ephesus at the time of Paul's writing ? Clearly not as it spans all time and is about eternity not just Ephesus, it is clearly a continuum of Gods creation and word.
Is it saying that women should never teach anyone, because they are easily deceived ? No because it says women may teach women and children, it's just saying women were not to teach man from the pulpit.
Is it saying Paul doesn't like women ? Well clearly no it as Paul is following Gods word.
Is it saying well uno things are quite different now because women are better educated and on an equal standing with men in society's eyes ? No, as things have not changed in Gods world.
The teaching in 1 Timothy 2:18-15 has implications today and those that seek to implement their own agenda are not being obedient to Gods word and his instructions to his church and we all know how that worked out for Adam and Eve xx
Sooo as God pronounces judgment in Gen 3, the overturned order is emphasised in the way he deals first with the serpent, then with the woman and then with man. In the cursed and FALLEN world, the good order of chapter 2 becomes distorted and bitter- the serpent will attack the woman's offspring and be crushed under his heel; the woman will attempt to master the man, but he will be dominated by him instead; and the man, rather than ruling and tending a bountiful garden, will gain his food by sweat from a hostile earth.
There is an order to Gods creation; there is a structure to the relationships between men and women that is built into the very fabric of things. God made Adam first and Eve to be his helper, and both to rule over the rest of the creation. The very essence of Adam and Eves sin was their overturning of this order yet here many are trying to do just that again ?????
So before looking at the 3rd theme in Genesis (childbirth) review the first 2. Obviously when one compares Gen 2-3 with 1 Timothy 2, the relationship between the two passages is not difficult to see. Women are being warned NOT to upset the order of creation by usurping authority in the manner that Eve did. What we find more difficult to understand is why this should be expressed through teaching in the church, and what it is about teaching that makes Paul single it out as the authority issue, so do women have to be utterly silent and not say a word in Christian gatherings ??
The answer to that rests in our understanding of what "teaching" is. People tend to think of teaching as merely an intellectual activity- imparting knowledge or giving instruction to someone. However, in the Bible and indeed in other fields as well, teaching involves a special type of relationship between the teacher and the student.
Christian teaching involves authority. The teacher moulds the life of the taught: the teacher is given the privilege and responsibility of guiding, informing, persuading, changing and leading. This is why teaching and authority are so closely tied together in 1 Tim 2:12. To be in a teaching relationship with someone is to be exercising some sort of Authority over him or her.
Under Christ's authority, and through his word to us in 1 Tim 2:11-12, we are told that woman ought not to teach or have this authority over men. Teaching a man is wrong because by teaching him, the woman enters into a relationship of authority over him. By teaching the man, the woman is falling into Eve's error- turning the order of creation upside down. Teaching is the flip side of learning "quietly with all submissiveness" v11. Eve's sin involved overturning the order of creation and teaching her husband !!. Similarly, Adams sin came from listening to his wife in the sense of heeding and following her instructions. He allowed himself to be taught by her, thereby putting himself under her authority and reversing Gods good ordering of creation.
This biblical teaching may seem hard, especially in a society where women aim for, and often achieve, authority over men. But this isn't talking about a position as CEO of a company or a womens capacity in that regard, it's about how the church is to be run. We have to trust that any unhappiness with this instruction springs from our mistrust in the Goodness of Gods word. The word seems far less terrible if
1. We believe in Gods goodness and that he wants the best for us.
2. We don't see quietness and full submission as weakness, but as meekness- not as a demeaning and pathetic thing, but rather as a Holy and life affirming response to how God has created the world.
3. We recognise that Christ is our teacher, AND that he has ordained through his word that men and women relate this way.
So then that leaves theme 3 ( childbirth) v15
This verse sounds unusual upon first reading. It appears to be saying that childbirth has something to do with a woman's salvation, it seems to run contrary to the understanding that we are saved only though the death of Jesus Christ, which takes away our sins. It also seems to say that a woman's good works - her "faith and love and holiness, with self control"- somehow contribute to her salvation. Sooo what is this verse actually saying?
So read Gen 3:15-16, 1 Corinthians 11:11-12, 1 Tim 5:9-10 and Rev 12:1-6
So having mentioned Eves sin in 1 tim 2:14, Paul seems to be making it clear in v15 that women certainly can be saved. Their salvation is strangely expressed- "through child bearing"- but it is surely promised. There are 3 ways one can understand that verse.
1. Christian woman will not die during the birth of a child, well since Paul uses the verb "saved" in a spiritual sense referring to redemption, that understanding of the verse is unlikely. It's also not in order with the more immediate context in which salvation by the gospel is on view in verses 3-7.
2. That salvation comes through the birth of the Child. Paul may be saying that women, like everyone else, are saved from sin through Jesus, who was born of a woman. It may be pointing to Gen 3:15, where it is promised that Eves son will crush the serpents head. If the woman continues as a believer, with faith, love and holiness, she shares in the salvation secured by the Son of Eve. This interpretation comes from understanding salvation in a spiritual sense, as it ties it to Christ and fits in with the context of v 14-15.
3. Women will be saved by bearing children, parts of 1 Tim describe the lifestyle of a Christian woman (2:9-15, 5:3-16) in that it involves propriety, submission, hospitality, good deeds and having children. Motherhood in other words, is a good deed of a godly woman. It is an expression of living a Holy life in faith and love. V 15 could be saying that by having children and raising them well, a woman "works out" her salvation, akin to Philippians 2:12-13. It is not that she must bear children I order to be saved, but that bringing up children is a godly way for a saved woman to live. This again takes the word 'saved' in a spiritual sense and fits nicely with the context of v9-14 also noting the repetition of 'self-control' in v's 9 and 15. This also fits with Paul's teaching elsewhere in 1 tim 5:14 and Titus 2:4-5, where childhood are seen as a godly path of life for the Christian woman.
It's difficult to discern between the latter two understandings as both are consistent with other teachings in 1 Tim and in the rest of the bible. Both fit the context of 1 Tim 2:9-15 and both point in the direction of Christ and living a life that pleases him.
So all that being said is Paul dealing with a specific problem in Ephesus at the time of Paul's writing ? Clearly not as it spans all time and is about eternity not just Ephesus, it is clearly a continuum of Gods creation and word.
Is it saying that women should never teach anyone, because they are easily deceived ? No because it says women may teach women and children, it's just saying women were not to teach man from the pulpit.
Is it saying Paul doesn't like women ? Well clearly no it as Paul is following Gods word.
Is it saying well uno things are quite different now because women are better educated and on an equal standing with men in society's eyes ? No, as things have not changed in Gods world.
The teaching in 1 Timothy 2:18-15 has implications today and those that seek to implement their own agenda are not being obedient to Gods word and his instructions to his church and we all know how that worked out for Adam and Eve xx
I read most of your post.
I suggest Judges 4 and 5, else my essay on Deborah.
My essay might help you understand the 'authority' matter
correctly. Something not totally clear from the book of Judges.
I can also post regarding 'teaching' if desired.
Regardless, it's basically the falsehood of
Complementarianism that you posted about. Sadly I
read such posts every day.
Christis the end of the Law for those who believe and theres neither male or female in Christ
Here is the Divinely approved Truth especially written for the Elected
daughters of Almighty God:. ......
"11 Let the woman learn in silence with
all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man,
but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the
transgression"
1 Timothy 2:10-14 (KJV)
That is the TRUTH, many now do not like it, and refuse to comply, but there it is.
And again we plainly see:
"As in all the congregations of the saints, 34 women should remain silent in
the churches.
They are *not allowed to speak*"
*[To talk, i.e. UTTER WORDS :- PREACH, say, speak (after), talk, tell,
utter. -Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary]
"But must be in *submission, as the Law says."
*[To subordinate; reflexive to obey :- be under obedience
(obedient), -Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary]
"35 If they want to enquire about something, they should ask their own
husbands at home; for it is *disgraceful for a woman to speak in the
church."
*[A shameful thing, i.e. indecorum :- shame.-Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew
Dictionary]
36 Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has
reached?
37 If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, **let him
acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's** command"
1 Corinthians 14:33-37 (ANIV)
Anyone in here "spiritually gifted" ?
So again that is the TRUTH arrogant rebellious feminists may not like it, but there it is. Any feministic attempt at deviation is against the Truth and the commandment of the Lord.
So apparently in a society where women were considered zero ,a very powerfu business woman gets to deliver the letter to the Roman's ? He's obviously not satisfied with his anwer,seems to me that this is one of the few times NT.Wright could learn from Jordan Peterson.
You ladies please bear in mind, on your coming Judgment Day you will be
judged on your willingness and obedience to the Divinely endorsed
Scripture teachings and instructions that follow.
Now, regarding the false teaching for the emancipation of women in the Christian fraternity.
Such 21st-century contrived beliefs are in contravention and
defiance of the Lord's command for women to remain silent in the church
assemblies.
"As [is the practice] in all the churches of the saints (God's people),
34 The women should keep quiet in the churches, for they are not
authorized to speak, but should take a secondary and subordinate place,
just as the Law also says.
35 But if there is anything they want to learn, they should ask
their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to talk in
church [ for her to usurp and exercise authority over men in the
church].
36 What! Did the word of the Lord originate with you [Corinthians], or has it reached only you?
37 If anyone thinks and claims that he is a prophet [filled with and
governed by the Holy Spirit of God and inspired to interpret the divine
will and purpose in preaching or teaching] or has any other spiritual
endowment, let him understand (recognize and acknowledge)
What what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord**.
38 But if anyone disregards or does not recognize [ that it is a
command of the Lord], he is disregarded and not recognized [he is one
whom God knows not].
1 Corinthians 14:33-38 (AMPLIFIED ,BIBLE)
Thus if any insist on disregarding the Lord's command for a woman's silence they have become "One whom God knows not"
Which is a most undignified and ungodly position any man or woman could possibly find themselves.
For even St. Paul's instruction makes it quite plain that women
are forbidden to teach men and must not usurp their God given authority.
"11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression"
1 Timothy 2:10-14 (KJV)
What a wonderful pharasee heart ignoring the actions of Christ.
@@Bible33AD it’s nothing to do with being a Pharisee, it’s about obeying Gods word.
God has ordained that only men are to serve in positions of spiritual teaching authority in the church. This does not imply men are better teachers or that women are inferior or less intelligent. It is simply the way God designed the church to function. Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership-in their lives and through their words. Women are to take a less authoritative role. Women are encouraged to teach other women (Titus 2:3-5). The Bible also does not restrict women from teaching children. The only activity women are restricted from is teaching or having spiritual authority over men. This bars women from serving as pastors to men. This does not make women less important, by any means; rather, it gives them a ministry focus more in agreement with God’s plan and gifts.
How to tell people you don't know the bible without saying you don't know the bible 🤣