I think the church is doing an excellent job at creating labels. And occasionally mentioning specifics of the gospel message. I was born into a world given over to sin. I am a sinner. I am in need of a savior. Only God, by taking on the flesh, as God/Man, could provide the propitiation/sacrifice required to pay the penalty for my, and everyone else's, sins. Jesus suffered, then He died, then He rose from the grave. He defeated death, overcame and conquered sin, and ascended into heaven. He now rules at the right hand of the Father. All praise and honor are due Him. We need to hear this everyday.
I get what you are saying. For many of us, the things that they are talking about have been life altering. It has helped us to see the beauty of the gospel for the first time. I know people who will no longer listen to the gospel because of how they were treated in the church. Sometimes they were treated that way because all the women speaking up were silenced. Some women are told to submit to abusive husbands. That is not the gospel in action. It is the thing they are trying to fight against. What they are saying isn’t a distraction from the gospel. It’s to keep us from being distracted from the gospel.
1st Timmothy 2:11 Titus 2:3 1 Corinthians 14:34 Genesis 1-3, 3:6 highlights that the deception was for Adam and Eve to switch places. Forgetting this summons calamity. There are neither better nor worse, but different to the glory of God. God bless the reading of His word and the earnest heart who yearns for His understanding.
peace& Love there are miss translation so be VERY careful specially those Paul writings and their are a few that are miss translated. ((Including this one)) Watch this Youtu.be/ZR2VrzD1zFM
Paul was never against women in ministry or women's beauty. He always requotes the error of the churches and rebukes them with a statement being against it or asks a question. He also was against only false doctrine and false teachers.
I totally agree God has an order and there is no missing translations to Paul's letters to the church. Let's be very clear this is the WORD OF GOD his word never changers.
I am not really sure what these folks said in this 20 minute conversation, but my TH-cam feed showed me one of Jen’s teachings about being a bearer of God’s image that is one of the clearest engaging teachings I have ever heard.
carsten Unless Jen is teaching just women, she is walking in rebellion. For a woman to teach a man, that’s totally unscriptural. As women we can kick and scream against this but we’re arguing against God. The scriptures are clear.
The Bible says not to teach with authority. If you look at The Greek “teach and authority” are together as one concept. Women can’t be pastors or elders They have authority to enforce their teaching through church discipline. . She is not a pastor or elder. She’s not even teaching a man. She talking with a man. The man is her pastor. He has authority over her.
@@christian1172-z9e when you’re teaching you automatically have authority James says everyone shouldn’t be a teacher because they would judge on harder scale
@@dahokage1043 You can teach without authority. Consider an example: Pretend you went to a financial seminar. A man gets up and teaches about budgeting. Does that man have any authority to make sure you follow his teaching? No. He is teaching without authority. A pastor, on the other hand, can follow through with church discipline if you don't do what he teaches. The financial guy cannot follow through. Do you see how one has authority and one doesn't? Yet, they are both teaching. Also, women are only forbidden from teaching with authority in the *church*. Consider how *both* Priscilla and Aquilla taught a new pastor more correct doctrine.
@@christian1172-z9e let’s stop comparing Jesus said false teachers and false prophets meaning teaching and prophets come in saying they know the truth and if lead anyone astray they fall in judgement now women teachers going against the word
Jerett Olson God can give anyone a gift and can use anyone’s circumstances to preach the good news of Jesus. Just look at Corrie Ten Boom who after the war preached the good news around the world for 30 years living by faith and God provided for her and she led many people to Christ. I live on my own as I am divorced. In the times of Paul I would not be able to get a job so would have had to survive living as a prostitute. But today I work full time and look after my own home and pay all my bills, there is no man in my life but Christ Jesus and I am saved and will spend eternity in heaven with Christ.
@@carolineburman7952 we also align with God's Word, I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 1 Timothy 2:12. God's design and command is specific, so when we distort that we are saying God is wrong, and he's not we are. But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." 2 Corinthians 11:3
@@j-mshistorycorner6932 Titus1:6 An elder must be blameless, the husband of one wife, with faithful children who cannot be charged with dissipation or rebellion 1 Timothy 3:2 The overseer then must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, an able teacher, There is no woman who wrote a book of the Bible, no woman among the apostles, no woman with an ongoing prophetic ministry. To be clear, I'm only speaking about Woman and the leadership role in the Church. This also is specific to men. So women teaching other women/children is permitted, again based on the scripture. Outside the church is a different conversation, inside the Bible it is clear on leadership/elder roles to be men only. th-cam.com/video/z-PUtuzYzJg/w-d-xo.html
I’m grateful those in the video are following the Bible. I’ve been in patriarchal churches where they don’t care about the Bible. This video was refreshing.
No, it actually isn’t. Except towards the intellectually lazy. There wouldn’t be such division if both sides didn’t have strong evidence for their position.
Is there a video before this one that I should watch? It's hard for me to follow, it seems they are making reference to things but not mentioning them...(I'm at 13:29)
1 Timothy 2:11-15. In these verses it is clearly shown that women should not teach/have authority over men in the church. Not due to false teachings by women of that specific time period, but to all time periods. The reasons for Man's authority in church are clearly indicated: 1. "Adam was formed first." 2. "Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor." These reasons point to God's established order of creation and do not concern only the women of that time. These verses are as clear cut as can be. They are direct
But also notice that it says "I" which would be Paul. Not that I am justifying women preachers, however I *have* seen this used against women worship leaders.
I felt that way too, however the good news is they have a 70 some-odd page paper for their church to read on the issue, which shows they’ve thought this through and aren’t skirting the issue. I respect that.
@Nunya Business Could you explain your interpretation of the verses you posted? Like, at your church do the women not speak from the moment they enter the church grounds to when they leave? Or is this addressing females in leadership? What is the context and application? I think those are the questions we are addressing, and not whether we have read the verses or not. Also, if we are to understand scripture, we have to understand context, audience, and language. So we are looking for a break down of these things. We are looking for exegesis of the passage. I can provide how this is relevant with other scripture references if you’d like. And I’d hope you understand that I am a very conservative Christian, even with regard to these issues. I’m just saying there seems to be a balance here that some people might miss in other passages. For example, women seem to be operating in the gifts of the Spirit, as well as serving in the church at the end of Romans.
Such an excellent conversation. When the dynamics between men and women, who agree complementarianism, then introduce rigid legalism into what that means in practice - to the point where 'equal value' is all substance when it comes to men but 'just words' when it comes to women, you just end up with zero sum game relationships between men and women - both within the church and the family. God never intended men to flourish and be fulfilled at the expense of women or for women to take authority over men at home or in church leadership. The book of Genesis makes that clear. So there has to be give and take on both sides where men can take on the role that God gave them, but women can also be fulfilled in using all their God given gifts by supporting them in all kinds of other capacities - apart from teaching and minding other women and children - and otherwise being excluded and confined to unfulfilling and servile support roles for which many are not suited - personality or skills wise - especially if they are well educated and intelligent. This could mean involving women into positions of wise counsellors to Elders over issues of church discipline in matters where married couples can't work out their roles satisfactorily by using conciliation or mediation and to give policy advice to Elders on women's perspectives- all skills which women are blessed. This would better assist Elders to coming to sound, wise and balanced outcomes. Plus it would take away the temptation for men to form an echo chamber 'old boys club' of rampant chauvenism and entitlement which can happen when women are kept powerless and impotent in the church with endless sermons on their 'place' as submissive and only capable of teaching other women and children. I am convinced that such an approach might have gone a long way to helping GCC avoid the problems they are now caught up in, regarding the David and Eileen Grays case. Discernment and wisdom are two key gifts that churches often lack and the results can be very adversely impactful. People are complicated and effective solutions to problem solving is equally complicated. The crude bludgeon of authority = boss -v- submissive = powerless is an ineffective and dangerous model to adopt.
I am completely lost of what they are saying they are not getting to the point I would love to see pastor Gino Jennings on the elephant room but I doubt any of these guys have the backbone to debate or have a discussion with pastor Gino Jennings he is giving scripture not his own thoughts and ideas
God will give both men and women an anointing as a pastor. What is pastor, really? A pastor tends the flock, which is not a building. I would never, ever, wish to be on a church staff. I'm perfectly fine in the season I am in, in social services and using my Sundays to serve as a worship leader for children. God uses me in those areas and the pastor gift is cultivated. I become MORE of the woman He intended me to be because of this gift.
I enjoy the shared grace they are giving to this currently difficult topic. However, I am having trouble distinguishing what was changed, restructured or newly flowed out of from their recent discussions on this topic at The Village Church. I heard them say they want to be faithful to complementarianism. I did not hear that they wanted to be faithful to scripture. I would have liked to hear more about the specific roles women at this church can hold. It sounded like a women can be an elder since they specifically said their men in leadership need women’s opinions on important church matters. So while I enjoyed the grace displayed here, it felt somewhat like they are tip toeing around the real issues. Overall I didn’t find it that helpful.
They believe only men can be elders. They are simply saying women should be included in the conversation. Then the elders (all men) make the decision. Kind of like a husband and wife.
Galatians 1:28 says it all really. Everything else has to be read in terms of the clarity of this passage. 'In Christ' naturally applies to 'in the church'. So, there are not 'roles' based on sex. We are all variously gifted to mutually serve the body of Christ. One of the problems is the American church's predilection for 'leaders'. We read into the words for governance and organisation a modern concept of hierarchical aristocracy, as in the hubristic world of business. No. We all serve. Keeping this in mind, we can then appreciate the 'head' passage. Its about serving, not 'leading' or being boss. The hired help in churches are not leaders, they are ministers (servants), the church board is about good governance, not about 'leading' leading is the work of the Spirit through the body of the church.
@@dagwould I would disagree. The Bible specifically talks about leadership in the church- both male and female. They just lead in different ways. Men lead as heads of the home and spiritual authority in the church, while women serve in other leadership roles. It is absolutely serving and ministering, but we are also called to lead. Leading is not necessarily 'being the boss'. It is leading by serving.
A lot of people CLAIM to be complementarian who are really chauvinist. Like “men and women are equal but have different roles” quickly becomes “men’s roles are more important than women’s roles.” And very frequently a woman’s voice is just simply not heard in the decision making of the Church, and that is wrong. People say they are complementarian, but their message to women is “just bring the brownies and keep your mouth shut.” This discussion seeks to take things in a better direction for the life of the Church. It isn’t a denial of differences, it’s an insistence that those differences are good, necessary, and important to the life of the church, and that women can’t just be on the sidelines.
But apparently women aren’t spiritually smart enough or worthy enough to give religious advice to men. I love the Bible but I can’t imagine Jesus would say to women “you’re not worthy enough to spread my word to men”.
Not sure who the audience this was recorded for. They discuss little on what the bible says about women in leadership positions in the Church. Seems like they deliberately avoided the Pauline instructions. At the end I wanted to shout "It's not about your kids having women role models in the church, it's about clear biblical teaching". It seems like these folks want a culturally acceptable middle ground and happy wrap it all in elegant words.
I am 5 minutes in and wondering when are they going to get into the meat of the matter. Thanks to you seems never. Maybe they were afraid yo say the truth.That's one that we Christians should be and thar not afraid of man more than God.
Ryan Mack That was such a watered down, politically correct, hen-pecked, modern day feminist flavored discussion that came nowhere close to what the Bible actually teaches. So sickening.
@@EveryTongue it's because there weak compromiseing belivers that are men, they BLASPHEME JESUS CHRIST, while saying they love and follow him, there liars , and if they don't REPENT they will stand in front of him for it and , be judged for it.
Thank you for working through the complications of an egalitarian complementarianism!! It is worth the knee pains and head strains to find a place where both women and men thrive within the Holy boundaries of scripture. This is a very encouraging view.
@Bo Stephens We don't need to dumb down every single video. Check out Jesse Lee Peterson, he may be more suited for what you are looking for. Great guy speaks the truth.
It’s hard when they don’t process 1Cor or 1Tim and talk about scriptures that fit a narrative. The Bible isn’t my book, I didn’t make it. Ultimately if you decide that the Bible is Gods word to humankind, and then decide if you’re going to do it, the next question I ask myself is if I’m going to willfully ignore some parts. I appreciate Matt’s heart, this isn’t something I can breeze past and “view things through the lens” of whatever “God is putting on my heart”, especially when a church’s doctrine supersedes scripture. Isn’t that what Luther, Bonhoeffer, Chrysostom, and so many others gave their life for? Jesus is King, we ultimately decide where we let Him reign. Scripture isn’t complicated, but it is hard. In fact it’s a sword. Can’t remember where I read that. . .
I find that most denominations/churches do not examine practices versus Scripture as relates to any area. A rift develops and they try to bury it or split. And, it is also so hard to change in an "internet world" as who you were 10 years ago is always there for someone to beat you with. As Christians, we are commanded to grow in the Word, to dive deeper, and change to conform to a reasoned, well ordered, orthodox understanding of the Scriptures. Grow up unto all things in Christ is the verse.
When Jesus called His disciples, all twelve were men! If He had picked even one woman, we wouldn't be having this discussion! As far as the office of apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor/ teacher/ elder, these positions are to be held by men. This issue is not a cultural one but goes back to the order set up by God in Genesis even before the fall. The order is God the Father over His Son Jesus; Jesus is over the man; man is over the woman! Jesus did not feel slighted when His Father called Him His Servant. The Holy Spirit did not feel slighted when Jesus called Him the Helper. Women should not feel slighted when God created them to be a helpmate for the man! We all have our roles to play and when we are in our roles we find it to be the most fulfilling place and the safest place to be!
I am a woman and I was a feminist before I was saved you couldn't tell me women were to submit to their husbands I would have argued even insulted you but we all should remember that when we come to Christ we have a new life we are different from who we were in sin and feminism is a wisdom of the world which is foolishness before the Lord.Women should submit to their husbands and husbands love their wives like Christ loves the church this is not about oppression a man that loves you like Christ Loves the church won't oppress you this is where most people go wrong husbands should love their wives like themselves so submission does not necessarily mean oppression
That is all very well and good when both parties play their part as God intended. But not all do. Men often adopt a sense of entitlement and this can lead to problems at home where she is expected to hold her end up, whilst he just 'does his own thing' at her expense and can even become abusive and violent if she resists this unfairness by reminding him of his responsibiities to her and to love her as God loved the church. Ideal type models are not much of a solution when it comes to dealing with real life relationships.
Exactly. But this is the modern way. Talking talking talking and nothing out of it. Whatever point they were trying to make can be probably said in two sentences. Holy Spirit says women to be silent in church. Bang!
Right from the start, Chandler gets it wrong. “Partner” is not the word used in the text. She takes on Adam’s name. She is made to help him in his mission. Matt Chandler is just wrong.
I think they are talking to an audience that has already searched the scripture in these matters and decided that complementarianism is correct. They are giving a testimony about how their actions were not matching up with their beliefs. I think they are doing this because it is a common problem in the complementarian churches.
Yes, feel free to read their 79 page exegetical paper on this topic or their 10 page condensed version. This was just the conversation that came after that.
Study Koine Greek and the punctuation...LOL...Study Priscilla, study Phoebe, study Galatians 3:28 You are not going to stand before a Board of Men in Heaven and answer to them. You will stand before God.
Galatians 3:28 has nothing to do with ministry roles. If you've studied it in Greek, you would know that it's specifically soteriological in its nature and application. The only way it isn't is to rip that text out of context.
You are right. But, on this earth there is a created, not deserved, order. And whether we like it or agree with it, God is perfect and we are to trust Him, His wisdom and be obedient to it.
@@jakesanders136 you'll also find that Paul gives two reasons for this to back up the command. One, he says, is because man was born first and woman came from man. Two, he says that Eve sinned.
I will try to be straightforward without being harsh: I feel you are misapplying scripture, and twisting it to say something it clearly does not say. Nobody is talking about or even suggesting a "board of men" in Heaven. That is a red herring. We will stand before God, and He will judge based on His Word. His Word is clear as to role, so I fail to see your beef.
This conversation is very interesting but rather confusing. I thought Paul said women must quietly receive instruction with submissiveness and that she is not allowed to teach or have authority over man... also, wasn’t eve the one who sinned first so we shouldn’t trust women? But then what about Deborah who was the leader of Israel in the beginning of judges (not the horrible end of judges). And then there is the creation narrative, if God made female after man and therefore man is the leader, wouldn’t that makes mammals the leader over males... if we are going in order of creation.... THEN Paul says that there is no male or female, we are all one in Christ, so what is a person to believe? But then we can look back at Huldah and see how her leadership and insight was desired over other prophets (who were male) at the same time, and she spearheaded great reform in Israel. THIS IS SO CONFUSING!
Genesis 3:6-7 confirms actually that sin came through Adam, not Eve. Adam was also with her while the serpent was deceiving her. The issue in I Timothy 2:11-15 that Paul is speaking on is first a matter of doctrinal clarity, not just focusing on women in ministry. God holds men to a "higher standard" of leadership if you will due to how Adam fell short of God's charge to him to guide Eve in Genesis 3:9. Shoot me an email at kainanjoubert@gmail.com with some questions, and I can send you some passages that will clarify this on a deeper level. I'd love to help!
Don't be confused about the equality in the ministry in both two genders. You should watch this video for understand better the scriptures: th-cam.com/video/u9BFl91kfno/w-d-xo.html
Great comment. It is more complicated than some would have you believe! (Thus the 70+ page paper they mention here on it, which no doubt contains the Biblical passages not mentioned in the video.) Look up the arguments on both sides; it is eye-opening... and the Pauline passages will seem more misinterpreted than not after you’ve done even just a little research. I have been researching this lately and, while maddening, it has been helpful. I’m planning to publish a condensed summary online (soon) of both views and the passages they use if you’re interested. It’s not up yet but will be at GodMatters.online. Blessings and keep seeking! The Holy Spirit is a faithful teacher so long as we are willing to listen. 💗
KAINAN SETH Lol. I believe there is insufficient scriptural evidence to state unequivocally that Adam personally was responsible for Eve's sin. The "Innocence of Woman/Eve" is a demonic doctrine" If we go by scripture alone, without sympathising with one or other gender, or over stepping what is actually written as said by GOD, we see that Eve did some talking to Adam, she didn't just hand him the figurative apple. He did hearken to the voice of the woman and do what God told him not to do. And of course God changed the woman's biology and relationship to man, and He cursed the earth, and of course death came into force. If Eve was innocent God wouldn't have held her responsible. Back to the drawing board :-).
Your talking around the issue, Start with the Word of God end with the word of God, 1Corinthians 14:26-37 , 1Timothy 2:8-13, The roller the woman in the Church according to the Word of God is to Teach the younger woman what the word says about being a Godly woman/wife Titus 2:4 Titus 2:3-5 .Remember that all scripture is God breathed, They spoke from God as they where lead along by the Holy Spirit, so to deny what Gods word says about the place and roll of the woman in the Church is to grieve God the Holy Spirit. The bible says that Jesus The Word is the same yesterday today and forever he does not change, and he is the Word so the Word does not Change, it is the same now as it was in the beginning, it does not change with the times or with the culture, it does not care about your feelings or your position or your opinions, If you don't agree with something in the Bible the problem isn't the Bible ,the problem is with you.
It might be believable if they came up with something that was different from the the world. If a church has a "revaluation" of their church and it ends up functioning more like the world you can be pretty sure the society is influencing the church not the church influencing the society. Every church will have to bow the knee, eventually, if they want to remain respectable in the eyes of the world. Sad, sad, sad 😢
Gospel partnerships? Genesis Mandate? Lets look at what Paul said about Gospel partnerships as he takes us back to creation: 1 Tim 2:12. Women can pray and prophesy (foretelling) in church but not teach nor exercise authority over men. The bible states clearly men are to be elders, men are to be overseers, men are to be deacons. Paul further makes his case in 1Timothy 2:11-15 taking us back to creation as to why men are the head over the wife even as Christ is head over the church. When it comes to headship in home or church men are the responsible party. What about Phebe in Romans 16:1. The word "diakonos" in Greek could be taken to be a servant or deacon depending on which bible your reading. Once again I just explained to you why it can not be interpreted as a "deacon", since Paul states clearly that men are to be deacons, "let deacons be the husband of one wife" and, in reference regarding women teaching or acting in some sort of headship I refer you again to 1 Cor 14:34-37, especially verse 37, since some say this is Paul's personal view on women in leadership/teaching. However, you would have a hard time with 1 Cor 14:37 (the Lord's command). Qualifications for Deacons, Elders and overseers. Titus 1:5-9, 1 Timothy 3:1-13, 1 Timothy 2:9-15, 1 Cor 14:33-38 . If a woman is not recognized even in the sub qualifications for leadership in the N.T how can anyone presuppose her as a pastor, no matter who she thinks she is subject to man or not. Summarize: 1. Paul appeals to creation and deception. 2. Paul appeals to the Lord as His command in this matter. 3. This is not Paul's personal opinion. 4. Paul's letter is not meant for a certain church (bible says churches) as Paul's instruction to one church holds true to any church, even your own. 1 Cor 14:33-34.
There is a reason Paul said that because the women were explaining it wrong because there was no microphone and they were not sure what he said. Okay, I understand that you feel that way because women should not put on the apparel of a man also Deuteronomy 22:5, but it also says God is a Spirit and we must worship HIM in Spirit and Truth; Having said that....There is neither male nor female in Christ -Galatians 3:28. Why was Priscilla an Apostle, teaching and training pastors how to lead and serve? Why did the bible even mention her? If women could not wear the apparel of a man; understand men wore dresses (tunics) back then. No pants. Study to show thyself approved, rightly dividing the Word of God, there is no shame in doing this-2 Timothy 2:15.
In Genesis 3, God pronounced a curse over Eve, and the rest of the women that would follow her, when HE said..., “I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; YET... “YOUR DESIRE” WILL BE for your husband, And HE WILL RULE over you." -Genesis 3:16 We already know that “pain in childbearing” is universal. But what is God communicating to women when he tell Eve... YET...., “Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.” Is God telling Eve, your desire for Adam is gonna be physical and sexual? No. And this is why, sexual intercourse was already happening before the fall. Adam and Eve already knew to be fruitful and multiply. God pronounced a curse, and I think we can all agree that sex is not a curse. The only logical answer to God’s curse over the women is, that their desire will be to RULE over her husband. This is why God finishes the pronouncement of the curse with, “he (the husband) will RULE over you. Dr John Macarthur had this to say, “As a result, the woman bears a curse in two areas. One, and it’s ubiquitous and universal: pain in childbearing. Secondly, a desire, because of her fallen heart, to upset the divine order of authority and submission, and to want to dominate her husband. This is the universal reality in marriage to one degree or another. The woman will desire to control, the man will have to rule over her. That’s as universal as pain in childbearing. It refers to a desire, a sinful desire to control. This is why there is constantly the effort of women to overthrow the authority of their husbands, or the authority of men in the culture. And obviously, there is a multitude of women in the church trying to overthrow male leadership in the church.” Women who ignore this clear teaching in the scriptures are in rebellion against God’s.
Integrity Raw Amen. This is exactly what I was thinking as I was listening to their fantastical talk. They appear to have no understanding of what happened at the fall. And the hogwash about the great commission having anything to do with 'ruling and subduing'..... What about the NT Epistles??? I wonder how many hours they spent trying to come up with a position that pleases all 'Christians'? Have they no fear of God?
I find it very strange that if Adam and Eve did know about sex before the fall, then why was it only after the "fall" that they finally procreate and have children? In addition to this, the pain of childbirth is not a result of the fall but a consequence of our unique anatomies and being able to walk upright. Plus given the fact that babies have very large heads in proportion to their body size, it would be expected that pain would ensue. Imagine trying to pass a kidney stone or stool the size of a cantalope. I believe that would be a painful experience. As for the woman's desire to "rule over her husband" is that any different than the husband's desire to rule over his wife? It seems to me that it is the man who is more desirous of ruling over the woman than it is the other way around. It is men who are concerned primarily with hierarchy and status then the woman, and his fear of the woman wanting to rule over him are just his own projections of his desires to rule over her.
The reason women shall not teach or have authority over men, is because they shouldn't have to. What woman really wants a man who does not want to take on the responsibility of leadership?
What about her unsaved male friends? Should she leave them to perish… or maybe she gets a man (they don’t know) to teach them? If they wouldn’t listen to the man but would listen to her, should she waste that opportunity to tell her male friends?
Why? Because it tickles you modern feminist ears? Just stick to what Paul said and how the early church structured the church and that should be enough. This talk does nothing but contribute to the idolatry of modern females. The church taking its cue from the culture once again.
@@thereformedrant9592 i appreciate this, not because it tickles my ears, but because it's correcting some of the un-Biblical teachings in the Complementarian camp.
I love Matt and he is the lead of my church's denomination. I happen to be an egalitarian though. Just a small issue I don't agree on. As I was studying this issue, I found many prominent theologians that happened to be egalitarians too, like NT Wright, probably the foremost living scholar on the NT and Paul specifically. I think the main bashy verse in 1 Timothy doesn't apply globally, but specific to that church at that time because of something going on specific in that church in which women were disrupting things.
Completely agree. I took Alot of theology. The verses in Corinthians as written are letters from Paul ---to the people in Corinth-- that were out of control when they came together in worship and in fellowship. There was no organization, no orderly plan, and no way to have harmony. There was a need for Paul to give guidance as to what God would want for the people and how they should act when they came together. Paul mentioned that in meetings, wives would argue with or question things of their husbands, people would talk out of turn or at the same time and were not at all considerate. They had no ability to control their own agendas. So, Paul was saying that if there was a matter being discussed during fellowship or worship & meetings together, the husbands and wives need to dicuss the matter privately at home as not to bring conflict or if the wife asked or argued in front of the congregation, that type of behavior does not honor her husband & vice versa. Men are the head of their own wives, not of all women, and God is the Head of all humankind or mankind as it refers to both men & women. Men are not the head of all women. That is the absolute theology behind corinthians & paul's letter.
I believe that God decribes a Christian marriage as such the bible says , if however one or the other spouse is not following God, then we no longer have a biblical marriage now we are unevenly yoked . without God we are nothing.I apply this in my. Marriage, my political views ,ect instead this worldview is I am man you are women. If we both genders just serve God and make it about God instead of a power trip God says we are to humble ourselves
Paul explained that man and woman are equal in Christ. So now we are stuck with the section where Paul seems to forbid woman to speak, teach etc. Read that section carefully is says: "as it is written according to the law". Well. There you go. The law has been fullfilled. Love defines our actions. It is common knowledge that ancient churchfathers of a "certain denomination" had their hand in selecting biblebooks and adding/changing original text. So follow the Spirit on this one. In Gen it says "God made man, man and woman God made them". Would you not rather have a wonderworking by Holy Spirit transformed woman of God behind the pulpit, who knows what she is talking about: then a mere man with puffed up bible knowledge? For instance. We were in Africa bringing the Gospel. My wife and i split up. Walking through a village preaching, praying for the sick, walking in love. Everybody i prayed for got healed. Everybody my wife prayed for got healed. Male-female "differences" cease to exist in Christ.
Oh my, this is eloquent foolishness at best! In a simple term, this is one of two things that will neuter biblical truth and that is by intellectualizing real "Truth" down to a point where we can make it say what "we" want it to say i.e., subjective truth. In essence what they are saying is the roses really aren't red and the violets really aren't blue, sad times... 2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Well, here goes... For 1Tim2:10-12, the next 3 verses show an argument against a BACKWARDS teaching of Adam and eve in the fall. This verse includes a SINGULAR plural where as individual over individual(Wife over Husband)...the word "teach" is mentioned as false teachers in 1Tim1:1-3, which is in continuation of Acts19 and Acts20:1 in Ephesus of a goddess diana, whom women prayed their safetiness in giving birth. We must go back in scriptural events to get a better understanding of what's going on.... Same goes for Corinthians, Paul clearly quoted what the church did and reslonded to them with a question to rebuke them in their Jewish custom not found in the law of moses.
Women can be helpers married or not and elders and not young women can teach by God laws but to who only to younger women's not to men's and women's cannot be pastors or bishop's or preacher's by God laws.
We don’t live under the laws bc Christ fulfilled the law. Stop being religious and rule followers bc that won’t earn you to heaven. Seek to know the full truth of the gospel. Stop cherry picking verses and look at the women who ministered alongside Jesus Christ and Paul and all the women God used for his glory. We all are called to minister and spread the gospel to all nations. We all have roles. Why do y’all leave out the head coverings part? Guess y’all wear those too?
For a moment take a look at "It is not good that man should be alone" from God's perspective and not man's. "And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth." - Mal 2:15 KJV God's vision in creation is if not infinite seed then at least an unspecified number of seed. The man being alone was "not good" in that he could fulfill God's purpose, vision, and dream in creating man. Therefore, extending purposefully creation he extracts from man a womb-man. This womb-man, this woman, enables man to be "good" that is enables him to fulfill God's intent in creation. From this perspective, the womb then becomes one of the greatest gifts of God to man. A gift without which man could never ultimately fulfill God's creative desires. Also, note that man was taken from God. Therefore whatever God is man is. Woman was taken from man and so whatever man is woman is. This refers to essential substance and to quality. In the NT Paul says that the order of this creation is determinate as to submission and status of authority. Also, that man was created as the expression of God's glory and woman as the expression of man's glory. Therefore, "glory" MUST be fully understood to comprehend this passage at all.
They are responding to a conversation that has been going on for some time. There are people over correcting and over reacting to feminism by falling into the ditch on the other side of the road. To the point where abused women are told to go back to their abuser and submit. They are simply encouraging people to go to the scriptures rather than reacting to the world and going to the opposite extreme.
2 Timothy 4:1-4 King James Version 4 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Eve was a mirror in which he could see himself??? Where's the scriptural reference for THAT? Jesus was the image of the Father .That's how he saw himself.God created man in HIS image.Men are to look to God,Father ,Son Holy Spirit who are masculine to see themselves and other established male Christian leaders. Then they are to love and minister their wives as God loved the church and gave his life selflessly as a ransom for his eternal bride. Watch out for new age christian feminists.It's the Jezebel /Ahab dynamic at work and it will emasculate your doctrine
It's interesting how in the first century when Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write Corinthians, Timothy, Titus and his other scriptures one big problem, like today, was women asserting themselves inappropriately in defiance of God's order. The bible is perfectly clear on women not being preachers or elders and taking equal supporting roles to men by discipling women, and nurturing children. There can be certain variations but the roles are clear. I simply do not see why it's any issue if biblical sacrificial love is practiced.
@@adenjohnson5733 in Matthew 28 (and John 20) Jesus tells the women to go tell his disciples the good news (that he has risen). In John 4 Jesus speaks with a samaritan woman and she spreads the news to samaritans and many of them believe as a result.
Many christians try to use Paul’s writings to restrict women from doing the task Jesus commanded… to go out and make disciples (which also means preaching to men).
I've not seen any of the other videos of this ministry before this one which maybe to the detriment of my understanding of their doctrines, but it appears to me that they are saying in this video that we must accept the role of The Most Highs natural order that man is to be the head of the church and the household and that he is the cover of the woman. If The Most High designates He is the cover of man in the household and that woman was created to be the help mate/meet to man, and her cover I see no sexism in that unless that man is in opposition to how to treat women with the love and respect of the laws of The Most High which is a complete and totally different subject. What I hear in this message is, ITS NOT WHAT YOU SAY BUT HOW YOU SAY IT AND HOW YOU DO IT. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I have not seen the scripture that says, if a man shows no respect for woman The Most High has chosen that man for me, because I am His child covered by Him until He brings that man into my life, so that man cannot show love for me or to me because he does not know The Most High and The Most High does not cover him. The Most High says women should not preach in the church or lead man. Isn't that what caused the downfall of man (eternal death) in the beginning? As a result, the curse does not say woman has NO voice or leadership capacity. it's just specifies not at the head of the church. This ministry appears to support woman in other equally important capacities which can cause them to receive salvation upon the return of Christ, such as supporting their mate, raising their children, ministering to married and single women to obey the word of The Most High according to the scriptures to become virtuous women. I just don't see what MAN can perform those duties in the natural order of The Most High's Word without adding man's philosophies (carnal desires) or satan's confusion? Woman in the workplace is a totally different subject altogether.
We do have to remember the Lord Christ's words of truth. "Many are called FEW are chosen". "One said unto him, Lord, are they few that are saved? And he said unto them, 24 Strive to enter in by the narrow door: for many, I say unto you, shall seek to enter in, and shall not be able". Luke 13:23-24 (ASV)
Hi Henry. 1Tim2:10-15 is not against women in ministry. Paul was only against false doctrine(1Tim1:1-3) of teaching Adam and eve wrong. Just examine his tone arguing how eve was not made 1st. In the KJV bible, it uses singular plural nouns(THE WOMAN+THE MAN) between husband and wife to compare the headship that Adam had in his marriage as the result of the fall of eve. This book continues from Acts19, Acts20:1 in a city of a Greek goddess diana, who women prayed their safety in giving birth. Which is why 1Tim2:15 speaks about childbearing. We must read more than what 1 verse says.
Indeed. She says right here why are men only set aside for certain roles and went on, around 13:55 - 15:00 to say we "need to examine" the effects that has. The effect it has is biblical obedience which is no issue in a sacrificial biblicly sound church.
The time of the sunrise is imminent. Malachi 4: 2. This metaphor shows the arrival of Christ Jesus at the sunrise; at the appearance of brilliant light of the new 'day'; God's Kingdom. “And to you who are in fear of my name the Sun of righteousness will certainly shine forth, with healing it its wings.” The metaphor connects the arrival of Christ to the Sunrise of God's Kingdom in an unique way. The two parts of a metaphor cannot be broken apart. There are other references to this time [Psalms 46: 4-6, Daniel 11; 44, 45 Revelation 16: 12] This time of healing that arrives with the brilliant light of Christ's arrival in earth-wide power Matthew 24: 29, 30 Matthew 25: 31, 34 is also described in prophecy in Isaiah 30: 26 “And the light of the full moon must become as the light of the glowing sun, and the very light of the sun will become seven times as much, like the light of seven days; in the day that Jehovah binds up the breakdown of his people and heals even the severe wound resulting from the stroke by Him.” The 'wound' from the 'stroke' that came from Jehovah was the punishment upon Adam, that we have all inherited. Even this 'wound' is to be 'healed', as we obtain everlasting life John 17: 3 in Paradise Luke 23: 43 on earth Daniel 2: 44. The anointed and sealed remnant are fully aware of this time of magnificent light. They know 'their deliverance is getting near.' Luke 21: 28, 31-33. How will they be feeling? Will they be dejected, sad and mournful? Will they all put sackcloth upon themselves?I don't think so! That is why the two prophets, found in Revelation 11: 3- 13 cannot be in this time period: The Great tribulation. They are wearing 'sackcloth' at this time Revelation 11: 3. They are in sorrow, and are going through repentance, and dealing with an onslaught of opposition from Christ's enemies. This time period is between 1914 and 1918 when the leaders were all imprisoned with long sentences, and their work abruptly ended. But it did not stay that way. They were released from prison, and it was declared they had been imprisoned unjustly. So it appeared to the world they had been 'raised from the dead' by the God they worshipped. Revelation 11: 11. The first step in determining the times and seasons is to place prophetic events in their correct place in the sequence of time. The arrival of Christ at the sunrise Malachi 4: 2 is a time of great joy for those of the anointed and sealed remnant [Micah 4: 1-7] The apostle Paul spoke about this time of joy for those of the anointed class, in 1Corinthians 4: 5: “Hence do not judge anything before the due time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring the secret things of the darkness to light and make the counsels of the hearts manifest, and then each one will have his praise come to him from God.” The surise: Malachi 4: 2 is imminent. “At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let him that has ears listen.” Matthew 13: 37- 43. NO sackcloth at all, for these anointed Christians, at the appearance of the sunrise; which is also the appearance of the Great tribulation. Matthew 24: 21, 22, 29, 30 and Jehovah's Day of anger Zephaniah 2: 1-11.
Sounds more like the Philosophy the Bible warned us about in Colossians 2:8.... You sounded more philosophical than biblical.. God's commands are out of a deep love that we can understand very little of it now and that includes the role of men and women in the church. It's better to obey and see more clearly when we drop this body and put on immortal bodies than to try and explain away simple scriptures...
They are speaking to an audience that has already studied these matters in the Bible and come to the conclusion that complementarian thought is Biblical. This particular video is simply talking about the practical application.
Being a helper in creation when God create eve is good but the authority and power was to Adam the point is Adam is the head.... Same on church the man is the head and the woman is the helper. We must accept the Gods design. To be a helper is holy and great calling for if it truly follow by a woman if she win the victory she will be the same by man in heaven not a helper of man anymore but same as man like man same as angel in heaven.
It appears the bible teaches women cannot fill the position of elder/bishop/pastor. That doesn’t mean that they cannot preach, teach and serve as leaders.
It’s a submission issue. Male or female we all have to be willing to submit ourselves to God’s call for our lives. It won’t always be comfortable but it will always be beautiful.
@@sotiriosnovatsis4529 Because of the creation order that God put in place - man was created first, woman was created out of man, woman disobeyed God's command not to eat of the tree of knowledge - woman is to be man's helpmeet, and he is to be her head, and she is to submit to his authority as God has designed them to work together. Leadership is Male.
St. Paul's Divinely given instructions for ALL women in all centuries till the Lord Returns is as follows. "God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints, 34 women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35 If they want to enquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for *it is disgraceful* for a woman to speak in the church. 36 Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37 If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you **is the Lord's command**. 38 If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored." 1 Corinthians 14:33-38 (ANIV) Thus it is the Lord's own personal command that women must be silent in the church assemblies, and stop shaming themselves by refusing to do so, and those who are truly "spiritually gifted" will be the FIRST to agree and to acknowledge the same. And finally: "11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." 1 Timothy 2:10-14 (KJV) The true, humble, and those of a "Quiet spirit" authentic "Daughters of Sarah" will eagerly obey, sadly the daughters of the Adversary "The Devil and his angels" will adamantly refuse.
The Bible says that the church in Jerusalem gave the gentle church, four commands to keep,things offered to idles,from blood,things strangled and from fornication,they are under grace,the Jews, are under the law, KJV.romans 6:14.
Jen Wilkin does not preach. No woman preaches at that church. This is why people making comments throwing around scripture is so infuriating to me and damaging to people who may actually be seeking God. Do not comment or try to "discern" some wisdom about something, ESPECIALLY your brothers and sisters in Christ, before you know what the situation is. You are Ambassadors for Christ. You have been given the ministry of reconciliation. Is that how you are acting in these comments?
Interesting to me, that it is generally those trying to shut the mouths of women in ministry behind pulpits, in street outreach, in pastoral mission work, and who preside in church leadership, are usually those men indoctrinated by a class system within their own denominational hierarchy and are convinced in their egos by secular empowerment. Yet, never once is it the one to whom the Gospel message was preached and received, nor is it the sinner who is now saved, nor is it the child and battered mother who was clothed and fed physically and spiritually nourished, nor the homeless wino who became sober, nor the couple who stayed married, nor is it one of the lost sheep who was finally found. No, never once are these the voices raised against women in ministry. So when Christ returns and asks His Church what has His faithful servants raised up for His kingdom? Let it be that the prohibitor amongst us answer to Christ that it was he who tried to silence half of the Church called by Jesus Himself to preach the Great Commission.
Why was Jesus warning the church at Thyatira? Because they allowed a women Jesus calls jezebel to be their leader. Jesus revealed to Paul the correct manner of church administration; women do have a role, just not in the role of leading men.
J M P, This passage is not about Jesus denouncing a woman in church leadership because of her gender - but denouncing a false teacher who is corrupting the church. This “Jezebel” is a false prophetess who is leading people into the sin of sexual impurities and dabbling in idolatry. “By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols!” (Revelation 2:20)
@@cherokeegypsy2617 Keep in mind this one thing: before God had given John the revelation at Patmos, God had already given Paul HIS divinely appointed framework for the adninistration of the church, which Paul wrote in his epistles, and which clearly show that God decreed the church was to be led by men. Women had their role, but it was not in leadership. What did God say about the church at Thyatira? Many good things, indeed. But one thing was wrong: the Christians in Thyatira were allowing a women to lead, which was apostate to that which God had previously determined. So yes, it was because an apostate women was leading men, and not simply because of sexual immorality and idol worshipping.
Instead of the role of women in the ministry why is the question not “what is the role of women in the world”. Same question but replace women with men.
not an endorsement by The Village Church but something I found helpful and insightful my self Watch "The Role of Women In The Church" from Generation Church by Pastor Ryan Visconti
Two ?s: 1. Women shouldn't teach? Is that ever or just not teach men? 2. What does that have to do with this video? I'm asking because I wonder if you know anything about TVC? They are Complimentarians. Does that change how you view this video?
FROM HIS OWN POWER THE LORD JESUS CHRIST CAN CALL WOMEN TO THE MINISTRY SO WOMAN CAN BE AN APOSTLE; PROPHET; EVANGELIST OR TEACHER BUT MINISTER WOMEN SHOULD NOT FORGET THAT BY THE WORD OF GOD THEY ARE STILL SUBJECT TO THEIR HUSBANDS
Just wondering.... does anyone examine the cultural context of the time period Paul was writing in and addressing? Does anyone look at what the HEBREW and GREEK says, not just the translations that European men decided upon (who would have been translating through their own cultural context as well!)?
Yes an in the culture at the time in Hebrew and Greek they would have asked something like"Paul why would you include this? Why are women even allowed in a church?" The Holy Spirit had written this through Paul at the time so that we could read it no a days.. if we only look culturally then does that make homosexuality an ok sin to live in? It's hard to follow and live in but we have to desire Jesus over our selves. This life is only temporary, we should live and love our roles for the short time we have so we reflect God's love to help lead, by Him, more lost sheep.
Time does not affect God. He is still the same holy, amazing, kind God He was when He created the world. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. He is the same yesterday today and forevermore. For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Read Galatians 3 v 28. When we are in Christ there is no Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female. Surely if God gives someone a gift whatever that may be we should use it. Don’t forget that Aquila and Priscilla helped teach Paul and also Phoebe was an Apostle in Romans.
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Thank you for having this conversation. We need more of them!
I think the church is doing an excellent job at creating labels. And occasionally mentioning specifics of the gospel message. I was born into a world given over to sin. I am a sinner. I am in need of a savior. Only God, by taking on the flesh, as God/Man, could provide the propitiation/sacrifice required to pay the penalty for my, and everyone else's, sins. Jesus suffered, then He died, then He rose from the grave. He defeated death, overcame and conquered sin, and ascended into heaven. He now rules at the right hand of the Father. All praise and honor are due Him. We need to hear this everyday.
I get what you are saying. For many of us, the things that they are talking about have been life altering. It has helped us to see the beauty of the gospel for the first time. I know people who will no longer listen to the gospel because of how they were treated in the church. Sometimes they were treated that way because all the women speaking up were silenced. Some women are told to submit to abusive husbands. That is not the gospel in action. It is the thing they are trying to fight against. What they are saying isn’t a distraction from the gospel. It’s to keep us from being distracted from the gospel.
1st Timmothy 2:11
Titus 2:3
1 Corinthians 14:34
Genesis 1-3, 3:6 highlights that the deception was for Adam and Eve to switch places.
Forgetting this summons calamity. There are neither better nor worse, but different to the glory of God.
God bless the reading of His word and the earnest heart who yearns for His understanding.
I believe everything Paul says. God has made Everything in life have Order including his Church
peace& Love there are miss translation so be VERY careful specially those Paul writings and their are a few that are miss translated. ((Including this one))
Watch this
Youtu.be/ZR2VrzD1zFM
Paul was never against women in ministry or women's beauty. He always requotes the error of the churches and rebukes them with a statement being against it or asks a question. He also was against only false doctrine and false teachers.
@Bo Stephens
Amen, Bo.
I totally agree God has an order and there is no missing translations to Paul's letters to the church. Let's be very clear this is the WORD OF GOD his word never changers.
The people in this video would agree with you.
I am not really sure what these folks said in this 20 minute conversation, but my TH-cam feed showed me one of Jen’s teachings about being a bearer of God’s image that is one of the clearest engaging teachings I have ever heard.
carsten Unless Jen is teaching just women, she is walking in rebellion. For a woman to teach a man, that’s totally unscriptural. As women we can kick and scream against this but we’re arguing against God. The scriptures are clear.
The Bible says not to teach with authority. If you look at
The Greek “teach and authority” are together as one concept. Women can’t be pastors or elders They have authority to enforce their teaching through church discipline. . She is not a pastor or elder. She’s not even teaching a man. She talking with a man. The man is her pastor. He has authority over her.
@@christian1172-z9e when you’re teaching you automatically have authority James says everyone shouldn’t be a teacher because they would judge on harder scale
@@dahokage1043 You can teach without authority. Consider an example: Pretend you went to a financial seminar. A man gets up and teaches about budgeting. Does that man have any authority to make sure you follow his teaching? No. He is teaching without authority. A pastor, on the other hand, can follow through with church discipline if you don't do what he teaches. The financial guy cannot follow through. Do you see how one has authority and one doesn't? Yet, they are both teaching.
Also, women are only forbidden from teaching with authority in the *church*. Consider how *both* Priscilla and Aquilla taught a new pastor more correct doctrine.
@@christian1172-z9e let’s stop comparing Jesus said false teachers and false prophets meaning teaching and prophets come in saying they know the truth and if lead anyone astray they fall in judgement now women teachers going against the word
Complementarianism is that both men and women have equal value before God but have different roles in the church and at home.
Jerett Olson God can give anyone a gift and can use anyone’s circumstances to preach the good news of Jesus. Just look at Corrie Ten Boom who after the war preached the good news around the world for 30 years living by faith and God provided for her and she led many people to Christ. I live on my own as I am divorced. In the times of Paul I would not be able to get a job so would have had to survive living as a prostitute. But today I work full time and look after my own home and pay all my bills, there is no man in my life but Christ Jesus and I am saved and will spend eternity in heaven with Christ.
@@carolineburman7952 we also align with God's Word,
I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
1 Timothy 2:12.
God's design and command is specific, so when we distort that we are saying God is wrong, and he's not we are.
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."
2 Corinthians 11:3
Meaning it's nonsense.
jmshistorycorner.wordpress.com/2020/04/24/bring-on-women-pastors/
@@williamallen5369 You misunderstand those verses.
jmshistorycorner.wordpress.com/2020/04/24/bring-on-women-pastors/
@@j-mshistorycorner6932
Titus1:6 An elder must be blameless, the husband of one wife, with faithful children who cannot be charged with dissipation or rebellion
1 Timothy 3:2 The overseer then must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, an able teacher,
There is no woman who wrote a book of the Bible, no woman among the apostles, no woman with an ongoing prophetic ministry.
To be clear, I'm only speaking about Woman and the leadership role in the Church. This also is specific to men. So women teaching other women/children is permitted, again based on the scripture. Outside the church is a different conversation, inside the Bible it is clear on leadership/elder roles to be men only.
th-cam.com/video/z-PUtuzYzJg/w-d-xo.html
The role which is assigned by the creator to men and women should be followed! The Bible is absolutely obvious what to do!
I’m grateful those in the video are following the Bible. I’ve been in patriarchal churches where they don’t care about the Bible. This video was refreshing.
No, it actually isn’t. Except towards the intellectually lazy. There wouldn’t be such division if both sides didn’t have strong evidence for their position.
Is there a video before this one that I should watch? It's hard for me to follow, it seems they are making reference to things but not mentioning them...(I'm at 13:29)
Jason Avron Samuels I agree. They aren’t spelling it out.
They’re not, just a bunch of broad statements....
Love this conversation so much!!!
1 Timothy 2:11-15. In these verses it is clearly shown that women should not teach/have authority over men in the church. Not due to false teachings by women of that specific time period, but to all time periods. The reasons for Man's authority in church are clearly indicated: 1. "Adam was formed first." 2. "Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor." These reasons point to God's established order of creation and do not concern only the women of that time. These verses are as clear cut as can be. They are direct
But also notice that it says "I" which would be Paul. Not that I am justifying women preachers, however I *have* seen this used against women worship leaders.
Adam formed first had the woman inside of him. Eve was taken out of the original.
Yes Adam was not deceived, he chose to be a transgressor.
@calebfarley - 100%.
I would like to see the document that you speak of in this video
They said a lot and at the same time nothing, I’m confused why they’re not engaging in scripture on this matter.
I felt that way too, however the good news is they have a 70 some-odd page paper for their church to read on the issue, which shows they’ve thought this through and aren’t skirting the issue. I respect that.
I agree with you no scripture just feelings and thoughts.
@Nunya Business Could you explain your interpretation of the verses you posted? Like, at your church do the women not speak from the moment they enter the church grounds to when they leave? Or is this addressing females in leadership? What is the context and application? I think those are the questions we are addressing, and not whether we have read the verses or not. Also, if we are to understand scripture, we have to understand context, audience, and language. So we are looking for a break down of these things. We are looking for exegesis of the passage. I can provide how this is relevant with other scripture references if you’d like. And I’d hope you understand that I am a very conservative Christian, even with regard to these issues. I’m just saying there seems to be a balance here that some people might miss in other passages. For example, women seem to be operating in the gifts of the Spirit, as well as serving in the church at the end of Romans.
@@logantavellimusic3839 women can serve in church but not as pastors
@@lanadelkae351 I agree
One conversation is " Women's vital part in church ministry" - Another conversation is "Church Leadership and its Biblical order". It's very clear .
If God cared about gender He wouldn't have
placed a woman as judge. (Judges 4 and 5)
@@8784-l3b You cannot make a doctrine out of an exception.
Context, context, context@@8784-l3b
Such an excellent conversation. When the dynamics between men and women, who agree complementarianism, then introduce rigid legalism into what that means in practice - to the point where 'equal value' is all substance when it comes to men but 'just words' when it comes to women, you just end up with zero sum game relationships between men and women - both within the church and the family.
God never intended men to flourish and be fulfilled at the expense of women or for women to take authority over men at home or in church leadership. The book of Genesis makes that clear. So there has to be give and take on both sides where men can take on the role that God gave them, but women can also be fulfilled in using all their God given gifts by supporting them in all kinds of other capacities - apart from teaching and minding other women and children - and otherwise being excluded and confined to unfulfilling and servile support roles for which many are not suited - personality or skills wise - especially if they are well educated and intelligent. This could mean involving women into positions of wise counsellors to Elders over issues of church discipline in matters where married couples can't work out their roles satisfactorily by using conciliation or mediation and to give policy advice to Elders on women's perspectives- all skills which women are blessed. This would better assist Elders to coming to sound, wise and balanced outcomes. Plus it would take away the temptation for men to form an echo chamber 'old boys club' of rampant chauvenism and entitlement which can happen when women are kept powerless and impotent in the church with endless sermons on their 'place' as submissive and only capable of teaching other women and children.
I am convinced that such an approach might have gone a long way to helping GCC avoid the problems they are now caught up in, regarding the David and Eileen Grays case.
Discernment and wisdom are two key gifts that churches often lack and the results can be very adversely impactful. People are complicated and effective solutions to problem solving is equally complicated. The crude bludgeon of authority = boss -v- submissive = powerless is an ineffective and dangerous model to adopt.
The conversation stays general. As another church leader I wish I could hear specifics or tangible things so I can understand their position
Yes! I also want to know WHY they think what they think
I was thinking the same thing. This was pretty vague.
Would you happen to know where I could find the online information they mentioned?
I am completely lost of what they are saying they are not getting to the point I would love to see pastor Gino Jennings on the elephant room but I doubt any of these guys have the backbone to debate or have a discussion with pastor Gino Jennings he is giving scripture not his own thoughts and ideas
God will give both men and women an anointing as a pastor. What is pastor, really? A pastor tends the flock, which is not a building. I would never, ever, wish to be on a church staff. I'm perfectly fine in the season I am in, in social services and using my Sundays to serve as a worship leader for children. God uses me in those areas and the pastor gift is cultivated. I become MORE of the woman He intended me to be because of this gift.
I enjoy the shared grace they are giving to this currently difficult topic. However, I am having trouble distinguishing what was changed, restructured or newly flowed out of from their recent discussions on this topic at The Village Church. I heard them say they want to be faithful to complementarianism. I did not hear that they wanted to be faithful to scripture. I would have liked to hear more about the specific roles women at this church can hold. It sounded like a women can be an elder since they specifically said their men in leadership need women’s opinions on important church matters. So while I enjoyed the grace displayed here, it felt somewhat like they are tip toeing around the real issues. Overall I didn’t find it that helpful.
They believe only men can be elders. They are simply saying women should be included in the conversation. Then the elders (all men) make the decision. Kind of like a husband and wife.
Galatians 1:28 says it all really. Everything else has to be read in terms of the clarity of this passage. 'In Christ' naturally applies to 'in the church'. So, there are not 'roles' based on sex. We are all variously gifted to mutually serve the body of Christ. One of the problems is the American church's predilection for 'leaders'. We read into the words for governance and organisation a modern concept of hierarchical aristocracy, as in the hubristic world of business. No. We all serve. Keeping this in mind, we can then appreciate the 'head' passage. Its about serving, not 'leading' or being boss. The hired help in churches are not leaders, they are ministers (servants), the church board is about good governance, not about 'leading' leading is the work of the Spirit through the body of the church.
@@dagwould I would disagree. The Bible specifically talks about leadership in the church- both male and female. They just lead in different ways. Men lead as heads of the home and spiritual authority in the church, while women serve in other leadership roles. It is absolutely serving and ministering, but we are also called to lead. Leading is not necessarily 'being the boss'. It is leading by serving.
A lot of people CLAIM to be complementarian who are really chauvinist. Like “men and women are equal but have different roles” quickly becomes “men’s roles are more important than women’s roles.” And very frequently a woman’s voice is just simply not heard in the decision making of the Church, and that is wrong. People say they are complementarian, but their message to women is “just bring the brownies and keep your mouth shut.” This discussion seeks to take things in a better direction for the life of the Church. It isn’t a denial of differences, it’s an insistence that those differences are good, necessary, and important to the life of the church, and that women can’t just be on the sidelines.
But apparently women aren’t spiritually smart enough or worthy enough to give religious advice to men. I love the Bible but I can’t imagine Jesus would say to women “you’re not worthy enough to spread my word to men”.
@@sotiriosnovatsis4529 what did Paul say?
I thank God daily for the church I’m a member of. We have no need of these types of conversations. We have too much work to do to save souls.
@abaker4692 these conversations are important and relevant
that question on 13:57, Paul answered it in 1 timothy 2:12
I love this! So helpful. This is fantastic. Grateful for Village and the wisdom that is shared.
Not sure who the audience this was recorded for. They discuss little on what the bible says about women in leadership positions in the Church. Seems like they deliberately avoided the Pauline instructions. At the end I wanted to shout "It's not about your kids having women role models in the church, it's about clear biblical teaching". It seems like these folks want a culturally acceptable middle ground and happy wrap it all in elegant words.
I am 5 minutes in and wondering when are they going to get into the meat of the matter. Thanks to you seems never. Maybe they were afraid yo say the truth.That's one that we Christians should be and thar not afraid of man more than God.
Ryan Mack
That was such a
watered down,
politically correct,
hen-pecked,
modern day feminist flavored discussion that came nowhere close to what the Bible actually teaches.
So sickening.
There is absolutely no word being used here. Wow
They were afraid to bring up Paul in front of the woman.
@@EveryTongue it's because there weak compromiseing belivers that are men, they BLASPHEME JESUS CHRIST, while saying they love and follow him, there liars , and if they don't REPENT they will stand in front of him for it and , be judged for it.
Thank you for working through the complications of an egalitarian complementarianism!! It is worth the knee pains and head strains to find a place where both women and men thrive within the Holy boundaries of scripture. This is a very encouraging view.
Bo Stephens you just assumed blacks are unintelligent and can’t speak or understand what they say as “high academics”. That’s pretty sad
@Bo Stephens We don't need to dumb down every single video. Check out Jesse Lee Peterson, he may be more suited for what you are looking for. Great guy speaks the truth.
Corinthians 14 1 Timothy 2
They should have had Bibles on the table and discussed the topic based on what the scriptures say. GOD's WORD does not change!
The bible says many will try to get into the kingdom of God but will not be able to because they have other believe than God
True
And that relates to this video HOW?
I love this! So good!!
Love this! Is there anyway to get access to the paper Matt was talking about y’all produced? Thanks so much.
Please give me a link to the document that you put together then or subsequently revised.
Thank you for making this. Such an important topic. So many complementarian churches are only so in name.
It’s hard when they don’t process 1Cor or 1Tim and talk about scriptures that fit a narrative. The Bible isn’t my book, I didn’t make it.
Ultimately if you decide that the Bible is Gods word to humankind, and then decide if you’re going to do it, the next question I ask myself is if I’m going to willfully ignore some parts. I appreciate Matt’s heart, this isn’t something I can breeze past and “view things through the lens” of whatever “God is putting on my heart”, especially when a church’s doctrine supersedes scripture. Isn’t that what Luther, Bonhoeffer, Chrysostom, and so many others gave their life for? Jesus is King, we ultimately decide where we let Him reign. Scripture isn’t complicated, but it is hard. In fact it’s a sword. Can’t remember where I read that. . .
I find that most denominations/churches do not examine practices versus Scripture as relates to any area. A rift develops and they try to bury it or split. And, it is also so hard to change in an "internet world" as who you were 10 years ago is always there for someone to beat you with. As Christians, we are commanded to grow in the Word, to dive deeper, and change to conform to a reasoned, well ordered, orthodox understanding of the Scriptures. Grow up unto all things in Christ is the verse.
When you get to Heaven and the Lord says I never knew you...
When Jesus called His disciples, all twelve were men! If He had picked even one woman, we wouldn't be having this discussion! As far as the office of apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor/ teacher/ elder, these positions are to be held by men. This issue is not a cultural one but goes back to the order set up by God in Genesis even before the fall. The order is God the Father over His Son Jesus; Jesus is over the man; man is over the woman! Jesus did not feel slighted when His Father called Him His Servant. The Holy Spirit did not feel slighted when Jesus called Him the Helper. Women should not feel slighted when God created them to be a helpmate for the man! We all have our roles to play and when we are in our roles we find it to be the most fulfilling place and the safest place to be!
Amen
I believe all 12 were Jews also, no Gentiles, which does not mean Gentiles today cannot be disciples. It’s not a good argument.
I am a woman and I was a feminist before I was saved you couldn't tell me women were to submit to their husbands I would have argued even insulted you but we all should remember that when we come to Christ we have a new life we are different from who we were in sin and feminism is a wisdom of the world which is foolishness before the Lord.Women should submit to their husbands and husbands love their wives like Christ loves the church this is not about oppression a man that loves you like Christ Loves the church won't oppress you this is where most people go wrong husbands should love their wives like themselves so submission does not necessarily mean oppression
Did you watch the video?
That is all very well and good when both parties play their part as God intended. But not all do. Men often adopt a sense of entitlement and this can lead to problems at home where she is expected to hold her end up, whilst he just 'does his own thing' at her expense and can even become abusive and violent if she resists this unfairness by reminding him of his responsibiities to her and to love her as God loved the church. Ideal type models are not much of a solution when it comes to dealing with real life relationships.
God is good 😊
What is the paper you refer to, and how can we find it in its two forms - longer and sorter?
20 minutes of talk and I'm still not sure what they're trying to say, hardly any engagement of the scriptures and no practical application.
Me Neither! Lots of talk but I had no idea what they where talking about.
Exactly. But this is the modern way. Talking talking talking and nothing out of it. Whatever point they were trying to make can be probably said in two sentences. Holy Spirit says women to be silent in church. Bang!
Agree... It was a bunch of nothing
@@Vynachadzavy Holy Spirit says women be silent in the church? Not so. Study your scriptures to show yourself approved.
@@travelpro23 Just wondering what specific scriptures you studied. I'm just starting to explore way from a somewhat patriarchal view.
Right from the start, Chandler gets it wrong. “Partner” is not the word used in the text. She takes on Adam’s name. She is made to help him in his mission. Matt Chandler is just wrong.
The more words you need.... The more you drift away from scriptures.... 79 pages while the Bible says Just in a few verses what you should say
I really think you could have made this comment in five words. The fact that you used more proves you are wrong.
Well, complementarianism is biblical, so that's good - but I feel your time would have been better spent looking at what scripture says.
I think they are talking to an audience that has already searched the scripture in these matters and decided that complementarianism is correct. They are giving a testimony about how their actions were not matching up with their beliefs. I think they are doing this because it is a common problem in the complementarian churches.
Yes, feel free to read their 79 page exegetical paper on this topic or their 10 page condensed version. This was just the conversation that came after that.
Study Koine Greek and the punctuation...LOL...Study Priscilla, study Phoebe, study Galatians 3:28 You are not going to stand before a Board of Men in Heaven and answer to them. You will stand before God.
Galatians 3:28 has nothing to do with ministry roles. If you've studied it in Greek, you would know that it's specifically soteriological in its nature and application. The only way it isn't is to rip that text out of context.
You are right. But, on this earth there is a created, not deserved, order. And whether we like it or agree with it, God is perfect and we are to trust Him, His wisdom and be obedient to it.
@@jakesanders136 you'll also find that Paul gives two reasons for this to back up the command. One, he says, is because man was born first and woman came from man. Two, he says that Eve sinned.
I will try to be straightforward without being harsh: I feel you are misapplying scripture, and twisting it to say something it clearly does not say. Nobody is talking about or even suggesting a "board of men" in Heaven. That is a red herring. We will stand before God, and He will judge based on His Word. His Word is clear as to role, so I fail to see your beef.
Yeah so you should probably look at 1 Timothy....
Good talk. Where's the link to that paper? Can you put in the description?
MPowered Christian Ministries Google search - and it popped up.
Where can I find that paper so that I can read it? I am interested in this subject.
d1nwfrzxhi18dp.cloudfront.net/uploads/resource_library/attachment/file/937/Institute_-_2017_-_The_Role_of_Women_at_The_Village_Church-Long-Paper.pdf
thevillagechurch.net/Content/ExternalSite/Documents/Beliefs/Institute%20-%202017%20-%20The%20Role%20of%20Women%20at%20The%20Village%20Church%20-%20Condensed%20Version.pdf
@@erika8089 Thank you
This conversation is very interesting but rather confusing. I thought Paul said women must quietly receive instruction with submissiveness and that she is not allowed to teach or have authority over man... also, wasn’t eve the one who sinned first so we shouldn’t trust women? But then what about Deborah who was the leader of Israel in the beginning of judges (not the horrible end of judges). And then there is the creation narrative, if God made female after man and therefore man is the leader, wouldn’t that makes mammals the leader over males... if we are going in order of creation.... THEN Paul says that there is no male or female, we are all one in Christ, so what is a person to believe? But then we can look back at Huldah and see how her leadership and insight was desired over other prophets (who were male) at the same time, and she spearheaded great reform in Israel. THIS IS SO CONFUSING!
Genesis 3:6-7 confirms actually that sin came through Adam, not Eve. Adam was also with her while the serpent was deceiving her. The issue in I Timothy 2:11-15 that Paul is speaking on is first a matter of doctrinal clarity, not just focusing on women in ministry. God holds men to a "higher standard" of leadership if you will due to how Adam fell short of God's charge to him to guide Eve in Genesis 3:9.
Shoot me an email at kainanjoubert@gmail.com with some questions, and I can send you some passages that will clarify this on a deeper level. I'd love to help!
Don't be confused about the equality in the ministry in both two genders.
You should watch this video for understand better the scriptures:
th-cam.com/video/u9BFl91kfno/w-d-xo.html
@@sheroyal9326 And it s time of backslidden nations rignt now, so a lot of Deborah should arise ===> Isaiah 1 verse 26
Great comment. It is more complicated than some would have you believe! (Thus the 70+ page paper they mention here on it, which no doubt contains the Biblical passages not mentioned in the video.) Look up the arguments on both sides; it is eye-opening... and the Pauline passages will seem more misinterpreted than not after you’ve done even just a little research. I have been researching this lately and, while maddening, it has been helpful. I’m planning to publish a condensed summary online (soon) of both views and the passages they use if you’re interested. It’s not up yet but will be at GodMatters.online. Blessings and keep seeking! The Holy Spirit is a faithful teacher so long as we are willing to listen. 💗
KAINAN SETH
Lol. I believe there is insufficient scriptural evidence to state unequivocally that Adam personally was responsible for Eve's sin.
The "Innocence of Woman/Eve" is a demonic doctrine"
If we go by scripture alone, without sympathising with one or other gender, or over stepping what is actually written as said by GOD, we see that Eve did some talking to Adam, she didn't just hand him the figurative apple.
He did hearken to the voice of the woman and do what God told him not to do.
And of course God changed the woman's biology and relationship to man, and He cursed the earth, and of course death came into force.
If Eve was innocent God wouldn't have held her responsible.
Back to the drawing board :-).
Compared to the catholic church where men command
All other churches especially the
Church of England women are
Increasing in leadership roles
Jen, you would make an incredible Pastor. The Making of Biblical Womanhood is a scholarly read on this subject, Matt.
Your talking around the issue, Start with the Word of God end with the word of God, 1Corinthians 14:26-37 , 1Timothy 2:8-13, The roller the woman in the Church according to the Word of God is to Teach the younger woman what the word says about being a Godly woman/wife Titus 2:4 Titus 2:3-5 .Remember that all scripture is God breathed, They spoke from God as they where lead along by the Holy Spirit, so to deny what Gods word says about the place and roll of the woman in the Church is to grieve God the Holy Spirit. The bible says that Jesus The Word is the same yesterday today and forever he does not change, and he is the Word so the Word does not Change, it is the same now as it was in the beginning, it does not change with the times or with the culture, it does not care about your feelings or your position or your opinions, If you don't agree with something in the Bible the problem isn't the Bible ,the problem is with you.
It might be believable if they came up with something that was different from the the world. If a church has a "revaluation" of their church and it ends up functioning more like the world you can be pretty sure the society is influencing the church not the church influencing the society. Every church will have to bow the knee, eventually, if they want to remain respectable in the eyes of the world. Sad, sad, sad 😢
Gospel partnerships? Genesis Mandate? Lets look at what Paul said about Gospel partnerships as he takes us back to creation:
1 Tim 2:12. Women can pray and prophesy (foretelling) in church but not teach nor exercise authority over men. The bible states clearly men are to be elders, men are to be overseers, men are to be deacons. Paul further makes his case in 1Timothy 2:11-15 taking us back to creation as to why men are the head over the wife even as Christ is head over the church. When it comes to headship in home or church men are the responsible party.
What about Phebe in Romans 16:1. The word "diakonos" in Greek could be taken to be a servant or deacon depending on which bible your reading. Once again I just explained to you why it can not be interpreted as a "deacon", since Paul states clearly that men are to be deacons, "let deacons be the husband of one wife" and, in reference regarding women teaching or acting in some sort of headship I refer you again to 1 Cor 14:34-37, especially verse 37, since some say this is Paul's personal view on women in leadership/teaching.
However, you would have a hard time with 1 Cor 14:37 (the Lord's command).
Qualifications for Deacons, Elders and overseers. Titus 1:5-9, 1 Timothy 3:1-13, 1 Timothy 2:9-15, 1 Cor 14:33-38 . If a woman is not recognized even in the sub qualifications for leadership in the N.T how can anyone presuppose her as a pastor, no matter who she thinks she is subject to man or not.
Summarize:
1. Paul appeals to creation and deception.
2. Paul appeals to the Lord as His command in this matter.
3. This is not Paul's personal opinion.
4. Paul's letter is not meant for a certain church (bible says churches) as Paul's instruction to one church holds true to any church, even your own. 1 Cor 14:33-34.
Which of those did they disagree with?
There is a reason Paul said that because the women were explaining it wrong because there was no microphone and they were not sure what he said. Okay, I understand that you feel that way because women should not put on the apparel of a man also Deuteronomy 22:5, but it also says God is a Spirit and we must worship HIM in Spirit and Truth; Having said that....There is neither male nor female in Christ -Galatians 3:28. Why was Priscilla an Apostle, teaching and training pastors how to lead and serve? Why did the bible even mention her? If women could not wear the apparel of a man; understand men wore dresses (tunics) back then. No pants. Study to show thyself approved, rightly dividing the Word of God, there is no shame in doing this-2 Timothy 2:15.
Yes they are created by God but the question is.Should women be pastors in the church today if so what does the scriptures say about it?
In Genesis 3, God pronounced a curse over Eve, and the rest of the women that would follow her, when HE said...,
“I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; YET...
“YOUR DESIRE” WILL BE for your husband, And HE WILL RULE over you." -Genesis 3:16
We already know that “pain in childbearing” is universal. But what is God communicating to women when he tell Eve... YET....,
“Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”
Is God telling Eve, your desire for Adam is gonna be physical and sexual? No. And this is why, sexual intercourse was already happening before the fall. Adam and Eve already knew to be fruitful and multiply. God pronounced a curse, and I think we can all agree that sex is not a curse.
The only logical answer to God’s curse over the women is, that their desire will be to RULE over her husband. This is why God finishes the pronouncement of the curse with, “he (the husband) will RULE over you.
Dr John Macarthur had this to say,
“As a result, the woman bears a curse in two areas. One, and it’s ubiquitous and universal: pain in childbearing. Secondly, a desire, because of her fallen heart, to upset the divine order of authority and submission, and to want to dominate her husband. This is the universal reality in marriage to one degree or another. The woman will desire to control, the man will have to rule over her. That’s as universal as pain in childbearing. It refers to a desire, a sinful desire to control. This is why there is constantly the effort of women to overthrow the authority of their husbands, or the authority of men in the culture. And obviously, there is a multitude of women in the church trying to overthrow male leadership in the church.”
Women who ignore this clear teaching in the scriptures are in rebellion against God’s.
Integrity Raw
Amen. This is exactly what I was thinking as I was listening to their fantastical talk. They appear to have no understanding of what happened at the fall.
And the hogwash about the great commission having anything to do with 'ruling and subduing'.....
What about the NT Epistles???
I wonder how many hours they spent trying to come up with a position that pleases all 'Christians'? Have they no fear of God?
I find it very strange that if Adam and Eve did know about sex before the fall, then why was it only after the "fall" that they finally procreate and have children? In addition to this, the pain of childbirth is not a result of the fall but a consequence of our unique anatomies and being able to walk upright. Plus given the fact that babies have very large heads in proportion to their body size, it would be expected that pain would ensue. Imagine trying to pass a kidney stone or stool the size of a cantalope. I believe that would be a painful experience.
As for the woman's desire to "rule over her husband" is that any different than the husband's desire to rule over his wife? It seems to me that it is the man who is more desirous of ruling over the woman than it is the other way around. It is men who are concerned primarily with hierarchy and status then the woman, and his fear of the woman wanting to rule over him are just his own projections of his desires to rule over her.
You are reading your own interpretation into the text. You are not allowed to change God’s word.
Also, the Bible never says she will desire to rule over him. It’s very wrong to change the word of God.
Hey @@christian1172-z9e !
God unmistakably says ...
"your desire will be" ... for your husband,
-Genesis 3:16
blind leading the blind. Should we listen to the WORD OF GOD OR MEN, YOU JUDGE
What are you talking about? Did you listen to the video? Do you even know what their position is?
In what way were they contradicting the word of God?
Where can I find this paper?
The reason women shall not teach or have authority over men, is because they shouldn't have to. What woman really wants a man who does not want to take on the responsibility of leadership?
What about her unsaved male friends? Should she leave them to perish… or maybe she gets a man (they don’t know) to teach them?
If they wouldn’t listen to the man but would listen to her, should she waste that opportunity to tell her male friends?
This video is not about women having authority over men.
Can we have more conversations like these? This was refreshing and the tip of iceberg for what my heart has been craving!
Why? Because it tickles you modern feminist ears? Just stick to what Paul said and how the early church structured the church and that should be enough. This talk does nothing but contribute to the idolatry of modern females. The church taking its cue from the culture once again.
@@thereformedrant9592 Say it again brother.
@@thereformedrant9592 i appreciate this, not because it tickles my ears, but because it's correcting some of the un-Biblical teachings in the Complementarian camp.
So it tickles your ears...telling you exactly what you want to hear...affirming your false and idolatrous ideas about women in ministry.
@@christian1172-z9e You appreciate it because it tickles your ears. Saying it doesn't is just not true.
I love Matt and he is the lead of my church's denomination. I happen to be an egalitarian though. Just a small issue I don't agree on. As I was studying this issue, I found many prominent theologians that happened to be egalitarians too, like NT Wright, probably the foremost living scholar on the NT and Paul specifically. I think the main bashy verse in 1 Timothy doesn't apply globally, but specific to that church at that time because of something going on specific in that church in which women were disrupting things.
Completely agree. I took Alot of theology. The verses in Corinthians as written are letters from Paul ---to the people in Corinth-- that were out of control when they came together in worship and in fellowship. There was no organization, no orderly plan, and no way to have harmony. There was a need for Paul to give guidance as to what God would want for the people and how they should act when they came together. Paul mentioned that in meetings, wives would argue with or question things of their husbands, people would talk out of turn or at the same time and were not at all considerate. They had no ability to control their own agendas. So, Paul was saying that if there was a matter being discussed during fellowship or worship & meetings together, the husbands and wives need to dicuss the matter privately at home as not to bring conflict or if the wife asked or argued in front of the congregation, that type of behavior does not honor her husband & vice versa. Men are the head of their own wives, not of all women, and God is the Head of all humankind or mankind as it refers to both men & women. Men are not the head of all women. That is the absolute theology behind corinthians & paul's letter.
I believe that God decribes a Christian marriage as such the bible says , if however one or the other spouse is not following God, then we no longer have a biblical marriage now we are unevenly yoked
. without God we are nothing.I apply this in my. Marriage, my political views ,ect instead this worldview is I am man you are women. If we both genders just serve God and make it about God instead of a power trip God says we are to humble ourselves
Paul explained that man and woman are equal in Christ.
So now we are stuck with the section where Paul seems to forbid woman to speak, teach etc.
Read that section carefully is says: "as it is written according to the law".
Well. There you go. The law has been fullfilled. Love defines our actions.
It is common knowledge that ancient churchfathers of a "certain denomination" had their hand in selecting biblebooks and adding/changing original text.
So follow the Spirit on this one. In Gen it says "God made man, man and woman God made them".
Would you not rather have a wonderworking by Holy Spirit transformed woman of God behind the pulpit, who knows what she is talking about: then a mere man with puffed up bible knowledge?
For instance. We were in Africa bringing the Gospel. My wife and i split up. Walking through a village preaching, praying for the sick, walking in love. Everybody i prayed for got healed. Everybody my wife prayed for got healed.
Male-female "differences" cease to exist in Christ.
What utter nonsense are you spouting
Oh my, this is eloquent foolishness at best! In a simple term, this is one of two things that will neuter biblical truth and that is by intellectualizing real "Truth" down to a point where we can make it say what "we" want it to say i.e., subjective truth. In essence what they are saying is the roses really aren't red and the violets really aren't blue, sad times... 2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
I didn’t hear much Bible.
Well, here goes... For 1Tim2:10-12, the next 3 verses show an argument against a BACKWARDS teaching of Adam and eve in the fall. This verse includes a SINGULAR plural where as individual over individual(Wife over Husband)...the word "teach" is mentioned as false teachers in 1Tim1:1-3, which is in continuation of Acts19 and Acts20:1 in Ephesus of a goddess diana, whom women prayed their safetiness in giving birth. We must go back in scriptural events to get a better understanding of what's going on.... Same goes for Corinthians, Paul clearly quoted what the church did and reslonded to them with a question to rebuke them in their Jewish custom not found in the law of moses.
Women can be helpers married or not and elders and not young women can teach by God laws but to who only to younger women's not to men's and women's cannot be pastors or bishop's or preacher's by God laws.
You're on the wrong video. 😂 But if Pichu won an EVO, that would be incredible.
We don’t live under the laws bc Christ fulfilled the law. Stop being religious and rule followers bc that won’t earn you to heaven.
Seek to know the full truth of the gospel. Stop cherry picking verses and look at the women who ministered alongside Jesus Christ and Paul and all the women God used for his glory. We all are called to minister and spread the gospel to all nations. We all have roles. Why do y’all leave out the head coverings part? Guess y’all wear those too?
I'm with you Mikey!
For a moment take a look at "It is not good that man should be alone" from God's perspective and not man's.
"And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth." - Mal 2:15 KJV
God's vision in creation is if not infinite seed then at least an unspecified number of seed. The man being alone was "not good" in that he could fulfill God's purpose, vision, and dream in creating man. Therefore, extending purposefully creation he extracts from man a womb-man. This womb-man, this woman, enables man to be "good" that is enables him to fulfill God's intent in creation.
From this perspective, the womb then becomes one of the greatest gifts of God to man. A gift without which man could never ultimately fulfill God's creative desires.
Also, note that man was taken from God. Therefore whatever God is man is. Woman was taken from man and so whatever man is woman is. This refers to essential substance and to quality. In the NT Paul says that the order of this creation is determinate as to submission and status of authority. Also, that man was created as the expression of God's glory and woman as the expression of man's glory. Therefore, "glory" MUST be fully understood to comprehend this passage at all.
Nope Deborah Also consulted men first but they were punks so God gave her the victory plus she was a judge not a prophet.
Gotta say, no clue what their point was in this.
Appeasing new age feminist women at the expense of the sound doctrine?
They are responding to a conversation that has been going on for some time. There are people over correcting and over reacting to feminism by falling into the ditch on the other side of the road. To the point where abused women are told to go back to their abuser and submit. They are simply encouraging people to go to the scriptures rather than reacting to the world and going to the opposite extreme.
Soooo? Women can and can't?! What?
Alert: Beware of feminism dressed as a bible!
2 Timothy 4:1-4
King James Version
4 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Eve was a mirror in which he could see himself??? Where's the scriptural reference for THAT? Jesus was the image of the Father .That's how he saw himself.God created man in HIS image.Men are to look to God,Father ,Son Holy Spirit who are masculine to see themselves and other established male Christian leaders.
Then they are to love and minister their wives as God loved the church and gave his life selflessly as a ransom for his eternal bride.
Watch out for new age christian feminists.It's the Jezebel /Ahab dynamic at work and it will emasculate your doctrine
It's interesting how in the first century when Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write Corinthians, Timothy, Titus and his other scriptures one big problem, like today, was women asserting themselves inappropriately in defiance of God's order. The bible is perfectly clear on women not being preachers or elders and taking equal supporting roles to men by discipling women, and nurturing children. There can be certain variations but the roles are clear. I simply do not see why it's any issue if biblical sacrificial love is practiced.
Did Jesus break God’s order by sending (first) women to spread the gospel to the disciples (men)?
@@justonetime6179 can you explain which passage this can be found in? Thanks and blessings
@@adenjohnson5733 in Matthew 28 (and John 20) Jesus tells the women to go tell his disciples the good news (that he has risen).
In John 4 Jesus speaks with a samaritan woman and she spreads the news to samaritans and many of them believe as a result.
Many christians try to use Paul’s writings to restrict women from doing the task Jesus commanded… to go out and make disciples (which also means preaching to men).
Jack Jones, they don’t believe in women being elders or pastors. Where are you getting that from?
I've not seen any of the other videos of this ministry before this one which maybe to the detriment of my understanding of their doctrines, but it appears to me that they are saying in this video that we must accept the role of The Most Highs natural order that man is to be the head of the church and the household and that he is the cover of the woman. If The Most High designates He is the cover of man in the household and that woman was created to be the help mate/meet to man, and her cover I see no sexism in that unless that man is in opposition to how to treat women with the love and respect of the laws of The Most High which is a complete and totally different subject. What I hear in this message is, ITS NOT WHAT YOU SAY BUT HOW YOU SAY IT AND HOW YOU DO IT. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I have not seen the scripture that says, if a man shows no respect for woman The Most High has chosen that man for me, because I am His child covered by Him until He brings that man into my life, so that man cannot show love for me or to me because he does not know The Most High and The Most High does not cover him. The Most High says women should not preach in the church or lead man. Isn't that what caused the downfall of man (eternal death) in the beginning? As a result, the curse does not say woman has NO voice or leadership capacity. it's just specifies not at the head of the church. This ministry appears to support woman in other equally important capacities which can cause them to receive salvation upon the return of Christ, such as supporting their mate, raising their children, ministering to married and single women to obey the word of The Most High according to the scriptures to become virtuous women. I just don't see what MAN can perform those duties in the natural order of The Most High's Word without adding man's philosophies (carnal desires) or satan's confusion? Woman in the workplace is a totally different subject altogether.
We do have to remember the Lord Christ's words of truth.
"Many are called FEW are chosen".
"One said unto him, Lord, are they few that are saved? And he said unto them, 24 Strive to enter in by the narrow door: for many, I say unto you, shall seek to enter in, and shall not be able".
Luke 13:23-24 (ASV)
Why is she saying order out of chaos when discussing Biblical matters?
PLEASE STUDY OBEY THE TRUTH OF THE HOLY SCRIPTURES... NOT YOUR OWN OPINIONS (1 Timothy 2:11-15)
Hi Henry. 1Tim2:10-15 is not against women in ministry. Paul was only against false doctrine(1Tim1:1-3) of teaching Adam and eve wrong. Just examine his tone arguing how eve was not made 1st. In the KJV bible, it uses singular plural nouns(THE WOMAN+THE MAN) between husband and wife to compare the headship that Adam had in his marriage as the result of the fall of eve. This book continues from Acts19, Acts20:1 in a city of a Greek goddess diana, who women prayed their safety in giving birth. Which is why 1Tim2:15 speaks about childbearing. We must read more than what 1 verse says.
Indeed. She says right here why are men only set aside for certain roles and went on, around 13:55 - 15:00 to say we "need to examine" the effects that has. The effect it has is biblical obedience which is no issue in a sacrificial biblicly sound church.
Henry that is exactly what they said they did in the video. Did you listen? Have you read what the worked on for so long?
The time of the sunrise is imminent. Malachi 4: 2. This metaphor shows the arrival of Christ Jesus at the sunrise; at the appearance of brilliant light of the new 'day'; God's Kingdom. “And to you who are in fear of my name the Sun of righteousness will certainly shine forth, with healing it its wings.” The metaphor connects the arrival of Christ to the Sunrise of God's Kingdom in an unique way. The two parts of a metaphor cannot be broken apart. There are other references to this time [Psalms 46: 4-6, Daniel 11; 44, 45 Revelation 16: 12]
This time of healing that arrives with the brilliant light of Christ's arrival in earth-wide power Matthew 24: 29, 30 Matthew 25: 31, 34 is also described in prophecy in Isaiah 30: 26 “And the light of the full moon must become as the light of the glowing sun, and the very light of the sun will become seven times as much, like the light of seven days; in the day that Jehovah binds up the breakdown of his people and heals even the severe wound resulting from the stroke by Him.”
The 'wound' from the 'stroke' that came from Jehovah was the punishment upon Adam, that we have all inherited. Even this 'wound' is to be 'healed', as we obtain everlasting life John 17: 3 in Paradise Luke 23: 43 on earth Daniel 2: 44.
The anointed and sealed remnant are fully aware of this time of magnificent light. They know 'their deliverance is getting near.' Luke 21: 28, 31-33. How will they be feeling? Will they be dejected, sad and mournful? Will they all put sackcloth upon themselves?I don't think so!
That is why the two prophets, found in Revelation 11: 3- 13 cannot be in this time period: The Great tribulation. They are wearing 'sackcloth' at this time Revelation 11: 3. They are in sorrow, and are going through repentance, and dealing with an onslaught of opposition from Christ's enemies. This time period is between 1914 and 1918 when the leaders were all imprisoned with long sentences, and their work abruptly ended. But it did not stay that way. They were released from prison, and it was declared they had been imprisoned unjustly. So it appeared to the world they had been 'raised from the dead' by the God they worshipped. Revelation 11: 11.
The first step in determining the times and seasons is to place prophetic events in their correct place in the sequence of time.
The arrival of Christ at the sunrise Malachi 4: 2 is a time of great joy for those of the anointed and sealed remnant [Micah 4: 1-7] The apostle Paul spoke about this time of joy for those of the anointed class, in 1Corinthians 4: 5: “Hence do not judge anything before the due time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring the secret things of the darkness to light and make the counsels of the hearts manifest, and then each one will have his praise come to him from God.”
The surise: Malachi 4: 2 is imminent.
“At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let him that has ears listen.” Matthew 13: 37- 43. NO sackcloth at all, for these anointed Christians, at the appearance of the sunrise; which is also the appearance of the Great tribulation. Matthew 24: 21, 22, 29, 30 and Jehovah's Day of anger Zephaniah 2: 1-11.
1 Corinthians 14 :34-35
What is the context though?
How about verse 36?
Did the gospel come from men, and has it reached only men?
Sounds more like the Philosophy the Bible warned us about in Colossians 2:8.... You sounded more philosophical than biblical.. God's commands are out of a deep love that we can understand very little of it now and that includes the role of men and women in the church. It's better to obey and see more clearly when we drop this body and put on immortal bodies than to try and explain away simple scriptures...
They are speaking to an audience that has already studied these matters in the Bible and come to the conclusion that complementarian thought is Biblical. This particular video is simply talking about the practical application.
Being a helper in creation when God create eve is good but the authority and power was to Adam the point is Adam is the head.... Same on church the man is the head and the woman is the helper. We must accept the Gods design. To be a helper is holy and great calling for if it truly follow by a woman if she win the victory she will be the same by man in heaven not a helper of man anymore but same as man like man same as angel in heaven.
It appears the bible teaches women cannot fill the position of elder/bishop/pastor. That doesn’t mean that they cannot preach, teach and serve as leaders.
It’s a submission issue. Male or female we all have to be willing to submit ourselves to God’s call for our lives. It won’t always be comfortable but it will always be beautiful.
Yes. The people in this video are wanting to submit to God.
So why can’t men submit to women if there are women who know God’s word better than them? Or do all men know Christianity better than women?
@@sotiriosnovatsis4529 Because of the creation order that God put in place - man was created first, woman was created out of man, woman disobeyed God's command not to eat of the tree of knowledge - woman is to be man's helpmeet, and he is to be her head, and she is to submit to his authority as God has designed them to work together. Leadership is Male.
@@garethifan1034Man sinned and blamed Eve. Eve was deceived.
St. Paul's Divinely given instructions for ALL women in all centuries till the Lord Returns is as follows.
"God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
As in all the congregations of the saints, 34 women should remain silent
in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in
submission, as the Law says. 35 If they want to enquire about something,
they should ask their own husbands at home; for *it is disgraceful*
for a woman to speak in the church.
36 Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached?
37 If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him
acknowledge that what I am writing to you **is the Lord's command**. 38 If
he ignores this, he himself will be ignored."
1 Corinthians 14:33-38 (ANIV)
Thus
it is the Lord's own personal command that women must be silent in the
church assemblies, and stop shaming themselves by refusing to do so, and
those who are truly "spiritually gifted" will be the FIRST to agree and
to acknowledge the same.
And finally: "11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."
1 Timothy 2:10-14 (KJV)
The true, humble, and those of a "Quiet spirit" authentic "Daughters of
Sarah" will eagerly obey, sadly the daughters of the Adversary "The Devil and his angels" will
adamantly refuse.
They never said anything against that. Did you listen?
The Bible says that the church in Jerusalem gave the gentle church, four commands to keep,things offered to idles,from blood,things strangled and from fornication,they are under grace,the Jews, are under the law, KJV.romans 6:14.
WOW! So much talk and so little said.
What does the Bible say? Woman can't be a pastor or elder? Ok discussion over on that topic.
Did they mention 1 Corinthians 14:33-37 and 1 Timothy 2: 11-15
Christopher1 bernal
No. That would undermine their own presuppositions
Why dont youjust listen to the video and read their position on their website?
Jen Wilkin does not preach. No woman preaches at that church. This is why people making comments throwing around scripture is so infuriating to me and damaging to people who may actually be seeking God. Do not comment or try to "discern" some wisdom about something, ESPECIALLY your brothers and sisters in Christ, before you know what the situation is. You are Ambassadors for Christ. You have been given the ministry of reconciliation. Is that how you are acting in these comments?
Little listen to, very little sound like human view point. Question is and always be what says the scriptures
We disarm half the body of Christ
Interesting to me, that it is generally those trying to shut the mouths of women in ministry behind pulpits, in street outreach, in pastoral mission work, and who preside in church leadership, are usually those men indoctrinated by a class system within their own denominational hierarchy and are convinced in their egos by secular empowerment. Yet, never once is it the one to whom the Gospel message was preached and received, nor is it the sinner who is now saved, nor is it the child and battered mother who was clothed and fed physically and spiritually nourished, nor the homeless wino who became sober, nor the couple who stayed married, nor is it one of the lost sheep who was finally found. No, never once are these the voices raised against women in ministry. So when Christ returns and asks His Church what has His faithful servants raised up for His kingdom? Let it be that the prohibitor amongst us answer to Christ that it was he who tried to silence half of the Church called by Jesus Himself to preach the Great Commission.
Why was Jesus warning the church at Thyatira? Because they allowed a women Jesus calls jezebel to be their leader. Jesus revealed to Paul the correct manner of church administration; women do have a role, just not in the role of leading men.
J M P, This passage is not about Jesus denouncing a woman in church leadership because of her gender - but denouncing a false teacher who is corrupting the church. This “Jezebel” is a false prophetess who is leading people into the sin of sexual impurities and dabbling in idolatry. “By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols!” (Revelation 2:20)
@@cherokeegypsy2617
Keep in mind this one thing: before God had given John the revelation at Patmos, God had already given Paul HIS divinely appointed framework for the adninistration of the church, which Paul wrote in his epistles, and which clearly show that God decreed the church was to be led by men. Women had their role, but it was not in leadership.
What did God say about the church at Thyatira? Many good things, indeed. But one thing was wrong: the Christians in Thyatira were allowing a women to lead, which was apostate to that which God had previously determined. So yes, it was because an apostate women was leading men, and not simply because of sexual immorality and idol worshipping.
@@BornAgain490 Totally agreed. Scripture well divided!
To shut up 🤫 finally we the people 😂!
Instead of the role of women in the ministry why is the question not “what is the role of women in the world”. Same question but replace women with men.
Simple women are not to take on leadership roles in the church. Period. No pastors. No elders.
Did you watch the video? Why are you saying that?
under these standards i am extremely depressed
She asked why do we put only male in those roles? What..
The Bible says women can’t be elders and pastors. How many churches interpret that: “Better not let the ladies pass out bulletins.”
This is our perspective in answer to this question: th-cam.com/video/_A666ltks4Y/w-d-xo.html
Was I the only one who found that vague and confusing? They seemed almost scared to say what they believe🤷🏽♂️
not an endorsement by The Village Church but something I found helpful and insightful my self
Watch "The Role of Women In The Church" from Generation Church by Pastor Ryan Visconti
How about just read the word of GOD and pray for discernment
I've watched it and I would have to disagree with him.
The reason you have so many openings for woman is because you don't allow man into it
What???
Ok but where in this video do you see that a woman is stepping into a man's role?
Two ?s:
1. Women shouldn't teach? Is that ever or just not teach men?
2. What does that have to do with this video? I'm asking because I wonder if you know anything about TVC? They are Complimentarians. Does that change how you view this video?
Well that was a lot of words to say nothing useful. No Scriptures to say why they believe that women can teach men.
I get what they are saying. You must have missed it.
FROM HIS OWN POWER THE LORD JESUS CHRIST CAN CALL WOMEN TO THE MINISTRY
SO WOMAN CAN BE AN APOSTLE; PROPHET; EVANGELIST OR TEACHER
BUT MINISTER WOMEN SHOULD NOT FORGET THAT BY THE WORD OF GOD THEY ARE STILL SUBJECT TO THEIR HUSBANDS
Just wondering.... does anyone examine the cultural context of the time period Paul was writing in and addressing? Does anyone look at what the HEBREW and GREEK says, not just the translations that European men decided upon (who would have been translating through their own cultural context as well!)?
Yes an in the culture at the time in Hebrew and Greek they would have asked something like"Paul why would you include this? Why are women even allowed in a church?" The Holy Spirit had written this through Paul at the time so that we could read it no a days.. if we only look culturally then does that make homosexuality an ok sin to live in? It's hard to follow and live in but we have to desire Jesus over our selves. This life is only temporary, we should live and love our roles for the short time we have so we reflect God's love to help lead, by Him, more lost sheep.
I believe in God and if He instructs anyone (man, woman or child) to preach then we should obey God.
Time does not affect God. He is still the same holy, amazing, kind God He was when He created the world. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. He is the same yesterday today and forevermore.
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Read Galatians 3 v 28. When we are in Christ there is no Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female. Surely if God gives someone a gift whatever that may be we should use it. Don’t forget that Aquila and Priscilla helped teach Paul and also Phoebe was an Apostle in Romans.
Bo Stephens there are women that preach. If God gives someone a gift they should use it.