What Did Paul Mean by ‘I Do Not Permit a Woman to Teach’? | Don Carson and Tim Keller | TGC Q&A
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 พ.ค. 2024
- In this episode of TGC Q&A, Tim Keller and Don Carson address the question, “What did Paul mean by ‘I do not permit a woman to teach?’” They discuss:
0:00 What Paul actually forbids
2:21 The debate over whether he forbids one thing or two
3:43 Imperial ignorance-it can’t be known
4:15 Transcultural exhortation
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Explore more from TGC on this topic:
~ Should Women Preach In Our Churches? www.thegospelcoalition.org/bl...
~ Pastors Need Women Teachers (and Vice Versa) www.thegospelcoalition.org/ar...
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A lot of people in the comments here already saying that Keller and Carson didn't answer the question. In case you didn't catch it, they both conclude that 'having authority' means taking a leadership role through preaching, that this command is not exclusive to that time/place because its linked to creation, and that the passage is plain in what it means - and that's that there is a restriction on women preaching and having authority.
Simple. I think people have a hard time listening to some of these older teachers because they answered quite literally lol
@@YoKinah Exactly, I was shocked to see so many comments claiming that they never came down on either side..
@@andyboreland Yes it seem quite clear to me. I think they are being gentle in the way they express their views too when people are used to those who stand up and shout about what they believe is right.
Excellent summary!
@@thegospelcoalition thank you :)
God's word must not be changed to be politically correct.
I'm a woman and know what work God has blessed me with and that is a helper for my husband and build our foundation .
Pastors and ministers must stop appeasing hurt feelings.
Also look at some of the major roles women have in the bible. Including prophecy and at times key strategic advisors. Let it not be forgotten the divine participation in bringing the Savior to this world. etc etc.
@@ronpd1982Yes, but we do it with other women or children, and always under the authority of the male leaders.
Woman, and I am one, are firstly to cover their heads, and long hair is clearly not the only cover. Once you do that, it has a profound effect on you, it constantly reminds you that you are under the male authority.
Amen Sister in Christ! Head covering is a "symbol" of authority and that we do submit to the creation order. Knowing (finally) our BEAUTIFUL role and having crystal clear instruction on EXACTLY what we teach younger women (the text spells it out...that which is good...to love and keep the home ect.) is such a relief! Can you imagine if our women's groups focused on the good deeds we can do in the Church together instead of trying to be like the men!!! Not to mention at home if men were being trained to be the head of the home (a micro sphere like the Church) in discipleship and leading the family based on the knowledge of God's word. Of course women know God's word and that's why we submit to our role in perfect unity under God with our men!
In other words, the scriptures mean what it says. Brilliant
I have also noticed these interesting Scriptures: Women are allowed to prophecy in the church. (1 Cor. 11). Then there's 1 Cor 14:26 - “How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation.” Does that mean everyone but not women? And then there's 2 Timothy 2:24 “And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, ...”
If you continue on in that same chapter (1 Timothy chapter 2) and look at verse 15,
since the scriptures say what they mean and mean what they say, do you think women are not saved by the same method as men? Grace through faith?
15 Notwithstanding she SHALL BE saved in CHILDBEARING, IF they CONTINUE in faith and charity and Holiness with sobriety.
So women cannot be saved without bearing children?
What about all the women who never had a child, salvation is not available to them?
And by this scripture is her salvation contingent upon her walking out an entirely flawless life by continuing in "charity and Holiness with sobriety?"
So does that mean she has to prove her worthiness and earn salvation by living this flawless life?
Are you saying that Ephesians 2:8 and 9 saved by grace through faith does not apply to women, only available to men?
If so is there another verse of scripture that agrees with your findings? In the mouths of two or more witnesses let everything be established. (Deuteronomy 19:15)
Ephesians 2:8 and 9
8 for by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 not of works, lest any man should boast.
Please enlighten, obviously i am not reading the scriptures correctly.
@@media333 thank you for bringing up this point.
In John 20:17 Jesus sent Mary Magdalene to go and tell the brethren the most important message ever known to mankind.
Imagine that, He trusted a woman to take this message.
Thank God He didn't send her to this church where she would not be allowed to bring this message for fear of her trying to usurp authority.
@@rgnold2517 I'm not a Bible scholar or anything but all's I know is that Paul wrote to Timothy and told him what the qualifications to be a pastor are, you can look them up
@@sidripster506 that's why 2 Peter 1:20 reads:
knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
You can't take a single scripture and make it a doctrine, it must agree with the whole of scripture. Lot's of people are teaching scripture that cannot correlate it with the whole word of God.
By the way, women are saved the same way men are: by grace through faith.
I dont see it as paul saying something. I see it as the Holy Spirit speaking to all believers.
Amen 🙏
The way that I have heard this theme of men and women is equal in the eyes of God, equally loved and equally important to the Kingdom but they have different roles.
@@user-iz8np3vv4i God used Deborah because he couldn't find a man to do the job at that time. There were no women priests. They were to be the sons of Aaron. Not daughters of Aaron.
@@tessmoore3762
Did you mention that God couldn't find a man to do the job at that time?
true equal in GODS EYE but with gender specific roles
I agree with your response and I am a woman. GOD'S way is THE WAY
@Bessie Colbert, Paul of Tarsus is saying Peter the fisherman says something about Jesus' teaching and a woman speaks the Old Testament Scripture to prove that it is Jesus speaking with power beyond, yet from, the Torah. Sort of like how Jesus states fulfillment or Jesus states beyond action is thought is the same sin to Yahweh. The Jewish woman is from memory quoting the Old Testament to state how Jesus is using the Scriptures to clarify and extend the power of God in our lives and thus revealing Peter is right to state what he is stating.
Paul of Tarsus is saying that he is a rabbi and doesn't need a woman to clarify things for the crowd or congregation as that would be an insult to him. Paul can give Christian doctrine and prove the point by using Old Testament Scripture whenever he wants. Its' all already in his head to prove his own point or sermon as correct.
We are not to sit there and figure out how to tell women they have no power or value in the church. The Pentateuch gives more written rights to women than all other documents prior to 1930 A.D. excluding the Pentateuch. This honoring of women through written rights was only surpassed because Jewish women in Christian lands felt free enough to make more changes for women.
Proverbs 31 reveals women have power to do good and act in our world. So could women support the ignorant Peter the fisherman? You better believe it cause they did. Can women ask questions and learn and give the Gospel of Good News and train up new believers in "THE WAY" that they should go? You better believe it cause they did. But a few rules needed to be laid down. Men in authority could tell women to stop interrupting sermons so that preaching can be accomplished and the women should refrain from interrupting the sermons and merely ask questions after the sermon to their husbands first and then other men, like the pastor if they still have questions. In like manner, leaders and preachers in the church had authority to stop women from interrupting them with quotes from Old Testament Scriptures as a rabbi doesn't need their idiotic speeches bothering them cause if people like Paul of Tarsus wanted to quote Old Testament Scripture he'd do it, but Peter the fisherman likely had people questioning him and didn't mind the women quoting Old Testament Scriptures so that the crowds would know Peter was right.
Peter still had authority over the woman helping him.
Paul of Tarsus wanted people who were women to be silent as he was a rabbi and certainly did not need their help.
Did you ever see that movie, "End of the Spear" where women went to South America after their husbands were speared like dogs by the natives? Those women would be like Deborah over Israel to any converts they gained in Christianity. Those women would be like husbands over their family to their small Christian church. Yahweh would be proud of those women preaching and teaching with authority. Let's be very clear about this.
we need women like you, but they are so rare, no wonder society is collapsing
@@josephde-zordi7324 society is collapsing Because women teach the bible ?? Or rather Because society is turning away from
God
Such a blessed person !! Amen.
Let’s remember that God placed St. Mary way up top …. And he came through her to redeem us - But when it came to this point he put this rule .. let’s just respect God’s rules ..
Then I would kindly ask that yiu understand your position and not comment when men are speaking.
My worry is in cases where men have deliberately ignored church services and leadership roles in Church. Be it that the one who is available is Very controversial... But a woman is ready , qualified, knowledeable with all the Biblical concepts, and very passionate and zealous about Naturing the People of God, what to do ? Should the gospel stop, just coz only women are available ???
Honestly I’m a woman, mother and a wife to a man who is not in the same path as me living and breathe life through the word and gospel of Jesus Christ. My husband for example does not lead our family according to what the Lord ordained him to do as the head of the family. I, myself in the other hand have no choice because of my love for Christ and what he has done for a sinner like me, I study the gospel and teach my children his word and sometimes teach my husband. I know how blessed I am in my relationship with the Lord and I believe we are all his children ordained to be his ambassadors in this foreign world. If I have to stay back and listen and obey my husband as the one with authority according to this verse than my life and our family could have been totally occupied by Satan.
You have free will, and that is the man YOU chose.
@@billsmith5215 Amen brother. Exactly right and thanks for your words of encouragement. Bless you 🙏
You are a blessing! I thank God for you because of the children. Keep up the good work.
@@LesA.R.6568 don’t take free will too personal. God direct my path from the very beginning. God sees my future before I even get there because he knows my heart. I thank God every day for blessing me with this man. God can really turn the impossible and make it possible and he really sees the light of Jesus through my daily walk with our God.
@@LesA.R.6568 I can see why this doctrine appeals to you. SMH!
What is amazing is that this clear and simple scripture needs explanation. Mankind is so full of ourselves as we say we just don’t understand what it can mean. It means what it says and it says what it means. We are under God and His authority.
AMEN
AS LONG AS we remember that same authority said to love your wife as Christ loved the church which has been abused and thrown out the window so much for so many hundreds of years that it is no wonder women don't want to hear "obey" any more.
I DO believe in the headship of the man but that same man has a serious covenant to follow to love his wife and children too.
Dude, seriously? I think one of the many issues here is the amount of abuse over the centuries that women have suffered that has been justified by this text
@Mrstrikerace Great, but we are not talking about you obeying any man, we are talking about whether women can be priests and pastors according to the new testament
Amen, so true
This verse and a few more has opened my eyes to realize the depravity of our humanity. Because even as scripture-believing Christians, once or when a verse does not appeal to or with our sentiments and emotions, we have the tendency to create a narrative that interprets it to suit our sentiments and emotions. It is indeed a bruise in the ego and emotions to say "woman cannot teach", but it is what it is, GOD can NOT be questioned about HIS order of and in creation, in heaven or here on earth, but our emotions and sentiments as humans have a way of leading us into a path of rebellion, when we don't like what we are hearing. We turn into Social Justice warriors and philosophers in the face of a very clear, precise and unambiguous scriptural order. May GOD give us a heart of humility and obedience. Amen.
Amen
Scripture never limits women though.
To be fair, it's not as if everyone who questions this is not wanting to follow God or being rebellious. We are reasonably trying to make sure we are understanding scripture correctly.
If this passage does, indeed, mean that for all of time, God does not permit women to ever be pastors, then I ans many others would surely obey that gladly, because God is God, and His authority is absolute.
But you can't act as if anyone trying to ensure we are understanding this scripture properly is just doing so out of rebellion or an unwillingness to follow a command they dont like. I personally do have a heart of humility and obedience towards God. I'm just trying to make sure I'm not obeying something man has misunderstood, that God didn't actually intend. Which I think is pretty wise and reasonable. I'm sure many other people who question the meaning of this passage feel similarly.
@@j-mshistorycorner6932 100%. If we followed Paul's writings then Paul and Jesus would not be teachers.
Are you saying Paul of Tarsus is God I think not. He was a man who spoke many true things for sure but he was not messiah and messiah did not teach women they must be silent and could not teach and that salvation was though pumping out kids. I personally know salvation doesn't come through childbirth because I have given birth five times. Salvation comes through faith in what messiah did and showed us and messiah never taught us that nor did Philip the evangelist who had actually been taught over time by messiah, had four virgin prophetic daughters that were not silent. Paul would not even have been born if Esther and Deborah had not spoken and taught. And neither did so with their husbands permission either. So I think either this part of scripture was added to or removed from or Paul was having a bad day and just couldn't handle it. I forgive whoever did it in any case but I will not abide by this curse. I will braid my hair if it gets in my way, I will love and teach and speak when called upon to do so, and I possibly won't have anymore human baby's even though I can safely do so for the next two years if my boyfriend and I get married under Gods will.
Timothy Keller’s Comment, ‘Paul is definitely forbidding something...’ helps us focus on the text. But another question or comment must be raised: Paul is forbidding someone. Both Keller and Carson will know that the Greek words used by Paul can accurately be translated ‘woman-man’ or ‘wife-husband’. For example, when Paul says to the Ephesians, ‘wives submit yourselves to your husbands... Husbands love your wives,’ he uses the same words. In that passage, context determines the translation ‘wife-husband’ because we do not regard all women needing to submit to all men, or all men loving all women as Christ loved the church. Those things are reserved for the intimacy and structure of the family. In their discussion Keller and Carson correctly refer to the creation context of Paul's remarks. Does creation teach us that all men have authority over all women and that all women must submit to all men? Or is the creation principle that when a man and a woman become one flesh, as did Adam and Eve, there cannot be two heads? Do Keller and Carson expect their wives to submit to all men in their church? How would that chaos ever be workable, with every wife needing to submit to and follow the instructions of a hundred or a thousand men? I imagine these two men would see submission and authority as being within their family units between themselves and their wives. That is what God created when he created one man to be united to one woman, thus completing each other. Perhaps this gives at least a hint that Paul’s words to Timothy might better have been translated as husband and wife, just as they are in over fifty places in the New Testament. It is worth noting that in 1 Timothy 2, Paul also speaks of women being saved by bearing children. It is a mysterious comment, nevertheless, our Christian worldview would suggest that pregnancy and birth are rightly connected to the family and marriage. The above comments do not argue a case other than for serious contextual and linguistic work on a text. When we approach scripture to support a predetermined view, it is too easy to leave off the due diligence required by the text. The other difficult passage in 1 Corinthians 14 about women being silent, on analysis, can only apply to married women with believing husbands. ‘They must be in submission…’ to whom? All males? Or their married ‘head’? We know from a previous chapter they can pray and prophecy, but if they have questions, says Paul, ‘they should ask their own husbands at home.’ Would Keller or Carson feel that a woman asking them a question to help her understand what they as the speaker said, is a rebellion against the created order? Or do the words ‘submission’ and ‘own husband’ indicate that something else is at issue in Corinth? Amidst all the discussion, the one core question is this: What does the Gospel of redemption mean for women? Is theirs a limited atonement, or complete atonement; a return to who they were at the beginning or are they to be ongoing custodians of the sin of Eve? What of Eve’s actions, along with Adam’s actions, did Christ take upon himself on the cross? When that is resolved, our interpretation will be in agreement with the Gospel.
Thank you for articulating this so well. It really does seem sometimes like the idea of "context" and "intentional study of the scripture and its history" are vital - until it comes to this specific verse. Then all of a sudden we become heretics for dissecting the scripture. It seems like people are encouraged to study the bible further, except when it comes to this verse. If we try to ask questions and look deeper, then we have a faith issue. Do we enforce 1 Timothy 3:4 with as much zeal? Are there panels discussing what it means for a male pastor to "keep his children under control with all dignity"? Or do we just giggle and roll our eyes at the "Pastor's kid who's going through a phase"? It's not my intention to be a contrarian - but as a woman who was raised in church and loves Jesus, it's been frustrating to see how this topic has been handled. And the conversations rarely ever address how God then intends to use women for His glory and kingdom, if it really isn't in preaching. The conversation seldom ends with encouragement and strengthening in the Lord for all women. It usually just ends with "it is what it is, get over it", and women are left to stumble upon an area of service where they hopefully won't be deemed offensive.
Very good!
A teacher who studied the Greek explained:
Women were not permitted to boss others around, which was the same for men. The Greek word ‘authentein‘ means lord over someone. The men were use to learning from scripture and each other but now the women were invited to learn! - see the previous verse - It was absolutely revolutionary what Paul was saying - so he clarifies, learn in silence, not stopping the meetings or shouting out questions. This was basic etiquette of learning which women had not been permitted to do before Jesus came and struck down that barrier.
That clears up a lot of things.
Thank you!!!
When did Jesus strike down what barrier? Thought Paul was preaching this after his resurrection
@@darelet Jesus struck down the "barrier" because if we read through the gospels we see a lot of women who are followers and active students, interacting with the teacher (Martha and Mary of Bethany, also Mary Magdalene, and many more unnamed)... These are not actions women were permitted in their synagogue. The early church also has many women named in positions that required leadership, like hosting, caring, teaching within your own family whom Paul himself commended in many of his letters. But never as the word of authority for and to the Church.
@@ongjanette As the video pointed out, women are not barred from teaching fellow women, and serving in other roles. This is about women teaching men and having authority.
The barrier does not negate this scripture, unless if you have another interpretation of what the text means. What do you understand by the scripture, if not what it says?
Thank you for what I already believed. So men of God, please fulfill our role as men, so our wives don’t have to compensate for where we lack!
Amen!
Hank Gonzales God Bless you from the bottom of my heart!
Amen and amen! Thank you Hank for putting the men in their rightful position.
Amen🙌🙌🙌🙌🇿🇦
The Bible is very clear on the point being discussed. If you have an issue you should take it to God. Stop all this nonsense. Try letting the Bible speak.
I always think it's amusing when someone says "what did they really say". Seems a very clear statement by Paul
"Did God really say" -
It is very clear what Paul says
And it is also very clear that the Bible has many instances of women 'preaching'.
Be it Old Testament, Acts, prophecy of Joel in the end times, or in Luke.
@@blackwiddowflainfrost6705preaching is not prophecy. I doubt that someone who so easily equates the two will be easily persuaded, but perhaps others reading will not fall victim to this folly you spout.
What did they really mean is a valid question sometimes. e.g. Jesus saying he is the door...cut off your arm if it causes you to sin...it all takes exegesis
They completely ignored context, the situation in Ephesus and why Paul would counter the "woman came first so worship Artemis" culture. Making this prohibition for all women, everywhere, for all time, makes Paul contradict himself when he commends Priscilla for teaching Apollos, and commends women to be modest (cover their head) when they pray and prophesy in public worship. Context, context, context.
I don’t understand. Deborah was a prophetess and a teacher/leader. Am I wrong?
Yes you’re right, and of course the Old Testament Scriptures override the New Testament Scriptures. Especially when they are examples of something as opposed to specific instructions - thanks for your brilliance, very sophistrycated
Read the book What Did Paul Really Said About Women by John T. Bristow. We have to keep in mind that the culture was different then. Paul was actually writing a letter and speaking to a specific church with a specific problem (not all the churches of that time) , plus we only hear one side of the conversation and concerns at that time.
She was a prophetess...It says nothing of her being a leader in her own capacity like anyone, say, Gideon. Moreover, Christ chose 12 male Apostles, that should tell you something.
And Isaiah says when a woman is in leadership it is because the country is under judgment and Deborah was the leader. She was a judge and that was God showing that Israel was under judgment and they were. They were oppressed by the canites for 20 years because they disobeyed God.
@@Me-ic3li 🤦♂️, the fact that you are so brainwashed that you literally point out that the “WORD OF GOD” blatantly contradicts itself and you STILL BELIEVE IT is mind numbing. I hope you get over your need for a god.
If it’s true that woman are not allowed to teach I can’t wait to have a first row seat to hear Jesus judge all the men who refused to teach Sunday school and the formation of spiritual minds of children and youth was left up to the woman. 25 years of children /youth ministry and I can count the men involved on one hand.
Two things can be true at once, the scripture can be true as well as the truth that men are not stepping up or into the role God has for them. I wish they would and I know that starts with each man. You have a point!
Stop running the men away
Clarification: Paul is only saying that women are not to teach or have authority over men in the assembled church, not children (1 Tim 2:12). Women are permitted and encouraged to teach children (2 Tim 1:5) and other women (Titus 2:4). Source: ESV Study Bible.
Certainly women are allowed to teach Sunday school just not teach the men.
Read the book What Did Paul Really Said About Women by John T. Bristow. We have to keep in mind that the culture was different then. Paul was actually writing a letter and speaking to a specific church with a specific problem (not all the churches of that time) , plus we only hear one side of the conversation and concerns at that time.
Also remember, men-we need to "respect women as the weaker vessel and heirs with us of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder our prayers." If we are acting and speaking harshly or treating women with disrespect then we are not fulfilling our role properly.
Jesus called us to love, not to look down on others.
Thank you
Some things in scripture are so clear that they really require no explanation. This is one of them. He meant that women cannot: 1) teach (learning in silence excludes teaching); and 2) usurp authority over a man. I can't understand why this would need any further explanation, unless someone is trying to twist it to mean that women can teach.
Unfortuantely, some good meaning, believing people who are not steeped in the word, and don't know the Word of truth are confused. This is because of their ignorance of some scriptures combined with false teachings from some popular "teachers". They are being confused and decieved into believing "popular ideas and misinterpretations pressed upon them by people who want to conform to popular opinion". Most often, popular opinion is the world's view, not God's way. That's why it is SO important to ground yourself in the Word reading it yourself and prayerfully considering it, asking the Holy Spirit to reveal its truths to you.
Acts 17:11 is a good approach for everyone . They received the Word with all readiness of mind, BUT searched the scriptures DAILY to see whether these things were so!
Learning in silence - how is this possible? Did Mary learn at the feet of Rabbi Jesus and never ask for clarification of any point?
@@coffeebreaktheology2634 I wasn’t there, so I don’t know. The scripture says what it says, no matter what some might want it to say.
@@coffeebreaktheology2634 I bet she listened very carefully, something hardly anyone practices today.
And at what point are we considered to have learned?Or we are to remain in a learning mode for as long as we live?!
This has come up in a Bible study at my church. Paul also told Timothy in the exact same letter that the women are to teach the younger women and the men to teach the younger men. People take this completely out of context.
Thats true. There statement on women teaching men is correct. They are not permitted to have authority over men.
God said for aged women to teach younger women to be sober, love their husbands, love their children, nowhere does it say for women to teach in church, God through Paul specifically said this is a commandment,
Titus 2:3
“The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;”
Titus 2:4
“That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,”
Titus 2:5
“To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.”
God also commands that Men love their wives as themselves.
1 Corinthians 14:37
“If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.”
If you don’t know the simple meaning of things like the brass serpent that Moses made and put on a pole, best to ask Jesus for understanding and study the Bible like a workman and seek God with everything you’ve got, heart mind and soul, hoping to get the
“ engrafted word”
Numbers 21:7
“Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.”
Numbers 21:9
“And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.”
John 3:14
“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:”
John 12:32
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”
2 Corinthians 5:21
“For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”
Romans 14:11
“For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
John 19:37
“And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.”
"teachers of good things"
Is the Bible not Good? Is salvation not good? All Christians both men and women are called to the great commission to preach the gospel in the highways and byways. Paul also recommended that men stay single and not marry and that women stay single so they can serve God better with no distractions. If you take Paul's advice extremely serious and abide by his instruction then you wouldn't have a wife to beat over the head with the Bible to tell her she's weak and unable to teach.
The Bible instructs women to teach other women, children both male and female and even men. You can be a teacher without having authority over men.
@@Crush_Cake11 Is God's word not clear?
@@nathanpoole9661Deborah was a judge.
Im pretty sure what he meant was. 1Timothy2:12 and I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
the last part is the truly hard part for women - to be in silence 😂
Jesus Gives me Everything I Need and Delivers me from Evil..Just as He Promised. I could not ask for anything more.
Growing up I had some great Sunday school teachers and teachers at school who were female.
When Jesus rose from the tomb who did he tell to go spread the word he rose .
The Bible says a female should be submissive.
Does anyone really know a female who is truly submissive?
Everyone I know is very quick to give their opinions and say how things should be done and I don't see anything wrong with that.
The choir director at our church happens to be female and if it wasn't for her we wouldn't hear some great gospel hymns on Sunday morning.
Times have changed and people don't have problems with that.
I don't have any problems with it.
When the church has dinner it's the ladies who make the meals.
If it wasn't for the ladies most churches would have a very hard time.
The Holy Spirit (through Paul) meant exactly what he said.
You miss so much when the debate is between two people sharing the same opinion.
there is no debate to be had here....THE SCRIPTURE IS VERY CLEAR AND REPEATED
He meant exactly what he said. It’s not hard. Leave it to the church to make the scriptures harder than they have to be.
Amen
Preaching i don’t know but most Sunday school teachers are loving mothers but the preachers are men so wisdom are taught to our children by females that are the wisdom of God
Coloring books and bible stories is not exegetical preaching or teaching. Once our young men and women reach their middle teens it's safe to say they moved beyond coloring books and are now ready for solid teaching.
I DIDNT RIGHT THID BUT THIS IS THE ANSWER ..... What is amazing is that this clear and simple scripture needs explanation. Mankind is so full of ourselves as we say we just don’t understand what it can mean. It means what it says and it says what it means. We are under God and His authority.
Moderns: What did Paul mean by "I do not permit a woman to teach?"
Paul: I do not permit a woman to teach.
what did Paul mean by women shouldn't wear braids or gold or we should drink a little wine instead of water to settle our stomachs? LOL Context is EVERYTHING.
@@fefemarks315 You're right that context is super important when interpreting the Bible. The Holy Spirit knew that as well which is why he inspired Paul to give context to what he meant by referring all the way back to God's order for man and women at the creation, not only for the family, but for the church. Biblical history confirms it, post biblical history confirms it. Never has it been so widely accepted for women to teach or be pastors in the church until the 20th century when feminism started to make waves in the world, especially the western world. It's amazing how something so obvious is so easily missed. As far as drinking of the wine, that was a command given specifically to Timothy because of his ailments. It wasn't necessarily a universal command. As far as the braiding of the hair and gold, he gives context to that as well.... In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; .... The context is that of humility and submission. Their clothes should not be that of outward brazeness. 1 Peter 3:3-4 reiterates almost word for word - 1 Peter 3:3-4 New American Standard Bible - NASB 1995 (NASB1995) Your adornment must not be..... merely external.....-braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses; but let it be the..... hidden person of the heart,..... with the imperishable quality of a..... gentle and quiet spirit....., which is precious in the sight of God. If a women has a gentle and quiet spirit, her clothes will match her spirit. Yes, context is very important.
Exactly what he said!!
Hello Cathy and how are you doing?
Hey, Thank you guys for being
"so clear", and stating it plainly and factually, "according to scripture".
Which would actually look and sound something like this,
Paul stated,
I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man,
Why?........
Because "God said so"
Thank you again
Paul doesnt make that claim.
@@LonestarEventPro Yes he did in Gen 3:16
Did God say so?
@@conganigechiranthana8650 But that applies to married couples. A strange man does not have authority over me.
@@conganigechiranthana8650 Description vs prescription. Try again.
*”It’s such a controversial passage…”*
It’s only “controversial” to those who don’t want to believe what it says. It’s an extremely easy-to-understand passage.
controversial and easy-to-understand are not mutually exclusive 😄
Exactly!
He meant EXACTLY what it says.
Coming from an atheist myself who met Jesus in my dream and am fully converted to Christianity from this dream which he opens the door and I entered. The denomination where he led me to allows women to preach and teach. Got to give it to the man or woman who has the desire to fulfill such role!
I just jumped into this thread. I’m not exactly sure what you’re trying to say, but God vehemently forbids women to preach. They can teach other women, and that’s all.
@@rayburnyarborough4695 I just know that some women are better teachers than men hands down. God looks at the hearts. If you have a desire, God isn’t going to stop you. The greatest law is the Law of Believing. If a woman believes that she’s a great teacher. Who’s to stop her.
@@justintran3265 Teachers yes, preachers no. Preaching is a calling, by God. I personally don’t think many preachers are called these days. The Bible strictly forbids women from preaching in the church. These guys here throw around many big words, but say nothing. One of the greatest preachers ever had a second or third grade education. God gave him the words to preach.
Have you ever been in a service where the preacher doesn’t get to preach. Let me repeat, doesn’t even get to preach. The Holy Spirit comes in, people get blessed and start testifying, and God himself gives the message. Those are the best services I’ve ever been in. Of course they’re pretty much non existent today. This was in a Nazarene Church. Nothing weird or out of place. We heard authentic Holiness preaching. I’m 71 years old and was born again in that church in 1984. If you’re interested, there’s a video titled ‘Women in the Pulpit’. The message is crystal clear about the subject. The Bible states that the woman is the weaker vessel and indeed took of the apple. If you would like to continue this conversation, I would be open to it. May I ask how old you are and how long you have known Jesus? Coming out of atheism, you are the type of person that God can use in a powerful way! Before making comments on sites like this,please, please do your own due diligence. God will give us the knowledge and wisdom to know the truth about everything. He has blessed me tremendously with much wisdom. I would recommend that you sincerely pray to see if God would want you to continue this conversation. Satan will be there every second of every day for the rest of our lives. Have you ever heard the expression, “if we’re not serving God, Satan will not mess with us, because he has us right where he wants us?” The instant we accept Christ, he will be right there to try and trip us up. Believe me brother, I speak from experience!
One last thing, I took myself out of church intentionally, several years ago. I attended very faithfully for many years. I was super active, played in praise bands, taught Sunday School, helped work on the church and was always involved. More of that later if you’d like. Blessings to you!🙏
Is the Word of God authoritative? Or do we get to reject parts?
Here''s another way to approach it - The new testament defines what a pastor is, and what a pastor isn't. A "positive" and "negative" definition. Can't honestly limit study to one verse
@@xanderLudahl The word of God is Authoritative. We can’t simply give an opinion because we fill like it. But what we can do, is to study difficult verses in light of the clear, meaning to go into scripture and see what similar phrases mean. For example Ezekiel 28:14 talks about a “thorn” and you might have difficulty understanding what a thorn means. But then you go to 2nd Corinthians 12:7 and it clearly states that “thorns” are people.
The issue here is not "teach" or "authority" but "woman" and "man." The Greek words, Gyne and Aner, can also be translated as "wife" and "husband." They are in Ephesians 5, and this letter was written to Timothy while ministering to the Ephesian church. The translators decided, "here it means woman and man," but in Ephesians and other passages, the same words mean "wife and husband." That is their opinion on the textual evidence. Reread it with the same translation rules applied to Eph 5, and it says, "I do not allow a wife to teach or have authority over her husband, but to remain still (not a busybody), for Adam was formed first, then Eve." The passage is a household rule for authority between husbands and wives and has nothing to do with EVERYONE's mandate to proclaim the Lord's death until He comes. The text has nothing to do with preaching. That is why it is not in opposition to Acts 2:17-18.
That's interesting. I shall further reflect upon it.
@ Philip Trank, that's what I wondered all along; the Greek words!
Sorry the text makes it very clear why. It mentions the creative order that woman was made for the man, Not man for the woman and and that women are more easily deceived.
So all the arguments about culture and the times or Greek words fall apart when he explains the reasons they aren't to teach or exercise authority over the man.
@@cryptojihadi265 Really? Where does it say all women are more easily deceived? My bible states Eve was deceived but Adam sinned knowingly.
This is an interesting argument but when considering the audience of the letter and the context before and after the passage (especially the beginning of chapter 3… and remember that chapter breaks are not inspired) it is quite clear that Paul has an office in mind, not just a gender role in marriage. This harmonizes much more easily with the other biblical requirements for the authoritative offices of the church.
I struggle so hard with this teaching!! Father died when I was 2 1/2- I grew up having to do things that usually males do: Mow, paint, shovel snow, etc. Life was hard. when I became born again over 40 yrs ago and I read Paul’s admonition to Timothy: “study to show your self approved unto God, a workman that rightly divide the the world of truth.” I was young like Timothy and thought, St Paul’s words were for me too! I saw it as an “age” thing and not a “gender” issue.Studying Scripture has been my life’s passion. However, the problem is that I know more about early church history, the Bible, etc. than do most men who lead in the church. I do not have any desire to teach, lead, or do anything in church. But, the question is, how much of these restrictions are cultural in basis only? the Bible says men are not to wear their hair down to their waist, but we have some in church that do and pastor would not dare say anything to them about it. what about women who go to work outside the home? Back in Jesus day, women where supposed to have a male accompany them around town, weren’t they? Please do not think I say these things because I want to be a women pastor because I do not. I do believe that pastors should be male because they must be ready to lay their lives down for the sheep. I think men are more suitable in this regard. But, I do not see why women cannot be an elder, or do readings! Not all women work well with children and I am tired of being relegated to the the kitchen and nursery. Please pray for me - I am tired of this struggle…..
Sid Roth interviewed a man who was taken to Heaven and talked to Jesus, He gave special revelation on many scriptures including the "wives obey your husbands" scripture. Jesus explained that the Aramaic translation is correct : "wives, give honor to your husbands". This makes a huge difference, as the Lord doesn't want us controlled by anyone. Regarding Paul's writing regarding women pastors/teachers, I'm not sure because Paul also writes that women are preserved through childbearing. But many women never give birth, so that can't mean that they aren't preserved..... I agree that men are more like shepherds than women, however, I believe that women can still teach small Bible groups, become elders..... This confusion really needs to get straightened out, as there are many Christian women who are being treated like children by their husbands.
Priscilla helped teach a man.
"And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly."
I'm just going to put the Bible verses here
"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."
I do admit that in the NIV it sounds a lot like this applies to every woman but to me from the King James Version this sounds like it is a specific case with a specific couple especially when Paul says that "she will be saved in childbearing" because that cannot apply to all women according to the scriptures. I don't think this applies to all women for these reasons but if any of you do I don't blame you. God bless
@@scouthart3062 Could we not understand that as teaching and not having authority?
@@LucasDangatan-xl6os do you not hold authority when you teach?
Here's the thing... the duty of leadership in a church falls to men by God's design, *not* because men are superior to women, but as an act of *chastisement* and a process of *redemption.* Paul clearly writes that the reason behind this is that the woman was deceived in the Garden of Eden. But what never seems to be talked about is what this implies... Eve was deceived by Satan, but Adam was not? And he chose to _do nothing_ when his wife, who he was responsible for protecting, ate that which was forbidden, and went ahead and ate it himself too? That's not just sin, that's open rebellion, the same thing that caused Satan's fall. Adam's sin is *worse* than Eve's. This is why, when done properly (and many times it isn't, as churches seem to lose their purpose), men are to have a more active role in the church and specifically in the Great Commission with which we're tasked, leading people to redemption and training disciples.
But it doesn't apply to praying, announcing, testifying, reading Scripture, anything but preaching?
I believe they missed what was forbidden. It was not teaching, it was not authority, but it was the USURPING of authority. And this can be supported textually throughout the NT as the usurping of authority is forbidden regardless of sex.
Gr8! What does usurping of authority look like in The NT Church?
@@lynette4412 usurp- taking forcefully something that is not rightfully yours - don’t follow anyone. Male or Female that usurps the authority of another.
That is a very good point! I will look into this.
Exactly! I recently discovered this by digging into the Greek words of this text and what those words actually meant. So much gets lost in translation. It really helps to search through the original language to determine what a passage is really saying. Usurping authority from men is actually what is intended here.
AMEN!
Don't overanalyze to fulfill self thought. Scripture states what it states.
So be it.
God Bless y'all!
When it comes to Paul's letters, they tend to be contextual. Paul didn't write general letters like the other epistles, he wrote specific letters to individual churches. I understand what you're saying about not trying to overcomplicate things, but when it comes to Paul, it is kind of complicated. People during their time had the same issue we have today, and we know this because it says it in 2 Peter 3:16
Researching the culture and trying to know why the letter was sent to begin with makes his letters a lot clearer.
God bless
@@Jesse-ig8mm it’s clear that the intent of First Timothy 2:12 is Paul’s personal preference or preference for that particular church that they’re talking about which some say is Ephesus. However, Second Timothy 2:15 does say to compare scripture with scripture “ rightly dividing the word of truth”. So what else does Paul say about women talking or having place in church. We end up in First Corinthians 14:34-36 , if you read only the first two verses you get a totally different picture than if you read all three. Verse 36 indicates that the first two verses were Paul being sarcastic. In Verse 34 and 35 he says that women Shouldn’t be allowed to speak at church and if they have any questions they should ask her husband for an answer at home. Then in verse 36 he says . “ WHAT ? “ Came not the word of God out from you or came it onto you only? “
@@Jesse-ig8mm I forgot to add that Galatians three Says that we are all God’s children once we are baptized and there is neither Greek nor Jew male or female, Just heirs to the promise.
@@Heavensoon7 Verse 36 of 1 Corinthians 14 does not indicate that verses 34 and 35 are sarcastic. Verse 36 is the sarcastic verse.
In 1 Corinthians 14:33 you see Paul chastise the Corinthians for not doing what is done in all of the other congregations. And in 1 Corinthians 14:34 Paul says women are not to speak as the law says. So in 1 Corinthians 14:36 he is chastising them by saying that the word of God did not originate with them, meaning that they should stop doing things their own way.
@@sfkapacheoutlaw5348 that’s your interpretation of the verse in English. But I am part Hebrew and that’s not the Hebrew interpretation / belief. Only with the Sanhedrin and the Pharisees was there a law against women having a say . Jesus came to dispel those trumped up laws that were not part of his original law. In fact, the Hebrew nation valued the wisdom of their elderly women to such an extent that Anna lived in the temple complex as a valued prophetess, Deborah was Instructedto go inquire of God as to what the Israelites should do. Moses‘s sister Mariam was also a prophetess, and that is what made her teasing of Moses’s wife, Zipporah such a big deal. She was supposed to be an example. In the book of Acts we see that not only the sons but also the daughters were to be given visions in the last days. See Acts 2:7 in the New Testament and Joel 2:28 in the Old Testament. Note: what’s in the New Testament can be cross referenced in the Old Testament . God did away with nothing, He does not change, He has no shadow of turning, He restates and emphasizes what he’s already told us. When Jesus came to women were his biggest followers what attracted them to him? He didn’t put them down criticize them or made them feel insignificant he realized their purpose and showed great respect to his mother, even in his death. Man’s punishment was to work because had he not been so busy with his work he would have been at his wife’s side not stomping her down from above, but protecting. Woman’s punishment had to do with childbirth, NOT Having her ability her voice taken away. So why do you think her punishment was childbirth pain? Satan always waits to strike when we are most vulnerable. He flattered her about her beauty, why would he start the conversation like that? The Jewish belief/ Tradition passed down through history is that Adam and Eve immediately Obeyed God’s command and were fruitful and multiplying. Women who are pregnant like to eat, and they are very sensitive about their looks. Satan played on both of these. Hebrews told stories ,and then went back and added the details telling the story again with more details. So when did Adam know his wife and she bore the child? The Hebrew believe is she was already pregnant when God cast them out of the garden. That is why her punishments had to do with childbearing . She was deceived, but Adam knew full well the choice he was making. Had he not been so caught up in work, he might have taken better care of his family/ wife . Therefore his punishment fit the crime. The Snake let Satan use its mouth so it now has poison in his mouth and it was flown up into the tree to tempt and flashy with its wings so it lost the wings . It picks the fruit with his legs or hands so it lost those as well. God is just.
My mother visited a women-led church, and she said that when they were asking for volunteers, no man stepped up, none at all.
OK, So does that excuse the act of direct disobedience to GODS word? Why was there a woman "pastor" over men in the first place? How did this "I had to do it" action work for King Saul when he decided that he would make the sacrifice because he thought it was taking the prophet to long to arrive?? He stepped out of his ordained place and GOD declared that "I have rejected him as King" because he did this....how is a woman pastoring or leading with that excuse any different???
This is actually a very easy issue. Nobody should be in a teaching/leading position unless called to do so. It doesn't matter who you are - if you are there because of your own desires instead of God's calling, you shouldn't be there. And if God is calling you to that position, I'm not going to stand in the way of God. If women aren't supposed to be in those positions, they won't be called.
It says what it says
GOD has a plain we are to follow
Men love your wife
women obey your husband
Dont provoke your children
We do none of that
Thats why we are in the boat we are in
How hard is it to understand what Paul
meant
Obey your masters
My wife tells me I have the more difficult task!
BRAVO!!! The TRUTH will always out....
Certainly 'one in the eye' for the purveyor of unrighteousness, Margaret Mowczko.....
Let's be absolutely honest.
The question on women preachers is not something that God's Word is unclear about.
For what St. Paul declared is not unclear, its just unpopular in our present 21st Century.
What was it, that Paul declared?
Amen. That's why that passage about the eye of the needle definitely meant a camel animal and wasnt a mistranslation of a similar word for rope.
This is most likely NOT the word of the lord. Ahhhhh men.
@@jerryp6001 the eye of a needle was a small entering in Israel that the camel had to put down all of its things to enter through the eye of the needle. Along with the passage it means us as Christians have to lay down things of this world to enter the kingdom of heaven
@@christianweaver1967 oh. I've never heard that. So that's a real thing/place that existed 2000 years ago? Oh wait...its not? Or it is?
Yes it unpopular! But just remember these words are GOD! So no matter what a woman think! God words don't change!
Better to listen to John McArthur on this topic. He delivers the same matters concisely and with great tactful clarity. In other words, you will not miss the answer.
Thank you Jesus Christ, amen.
Exactly that....!
Word-centered reasoning at a high level. Thank you for showing such an excellent way of thinking biblically, while making the Truth clear.
I still don’t get it because there are a lot of women in ministry, leadership and teaching/preaching roles.
Good presentation of the grounds and validity of Paul's restriction, and of some contemporary arguments against the restriction.
I think the problem may be rendering somewhat ambiguous greek into English. v12 can be rendered, "‘I do not allow a woman to teach or hold authority over a man" or equally well, "I don’t mean to imply that I’m now setting up women as the new authority over men in the same way that previously men held authority over women" or even more simply,
"I'm *not* saying that women should teach men"
instead of
"I'm saying that women should *not* teach men"
The position of *not* in the simple version makes all the difference and IIUC, the Greek can be translated either way. Given its setting in Ephesus, which was all about a religion where women were in control, I think that the "not saying" option makes more sense. Not to mention that it totally resolves the conflict.
You clearly do not know Greek. The verb to say or any word that could be translated to imply is nowhere in the text. This is an outright lie.
⸂διδάσκειν δὲ γυναικὶ⸃ οὐκ ἐπιτρέπω, οὐδὲ αὐθεντεῖν ἀνδρός, ἀλλ’ εἶναι ἐν ἡσυχίᾳ.
ΠΡΟΣ ΤΙΜΟΘΕΟΝ Α΄ 2:12 SBLG
Literal translation is
But to teach, a woman I do not permit nor to exercise authority man but to be in silence.
There is nothing ambiguous in the above verse. Please, we should make an effort to not manipulate scripture to fit a our ideology.
@@felixguerrero6062 I absolutely do not know greek! (except for a few mathy letters like pi). Curious about the passage I looked for greek whizes to see how it could be rendered and what alternatives might be. That is how I found the one I gave above. I know that the source I found is from a well-respected theologian (>40 years as such, name withheld to protect the innocent ) who uses a greek NT in live discussions when being asked deep questions. I have to consider that translation as a credible alternative. The "I'm not saying" part is simply colloquial contemporary English, I believe. The gist of the alternate rendering is that the placement of "not" in the translation is somewhat flexible, I understand.
@@geraldbritton8118
Thanks for your clarification Gerald, sorry for my harsh tone. I genuinely suspect that the theologian that relayed to you that information was adding undue ambiguity to this particular text.
Even the liberal protestant NT scholar Martin Dibelius translates the passage as follows in his well known commentary on 1Timothy.
"But I do not allow a women to teach nor to have authority over a man, but rather she should keep silent"
Of course the clarity of this particular text does not negate the important need to properly discern its correct implementation. God bless.
In 1985, l was a born-again babe for 11 years. Saved in 1974. I never went to church again until 1985. I had hit rock bottom as far as my life was concerned. Thinking suicide one minute then begging God not to give up on me the next. Through the Holy Spirit guiding me, l ended up back to a Missionary Baptist Church. I ask God if He was real, could He take this hate and Skincrawling feeling l had for my father, men, and myself out of my heart. HE DID IT, OUT OF EVERY NOOK AND CRANNY! l saw colour for the first time in years. So l told Him, (OH my) since only He could have done that, l would Him six months, and if He could not change my life, l would be out the door. AS GOD IS MY WITNESS! I made a vow to Him to read His Word everyday. It's been 36 years and l still read His Word every single day. Women are NOT to assert authority over the man. Man was created first. This world has lost so much, because this world want to "have it their way." BUT GOD SAID!!!
Sexist nonsense
Amen.
Kinda jealous. God keeps telling me to keep working on my issues, which are physical, and they are getting better.
But to be cleansed in a moment! Hallelujah!
You become a believer when your lifestyle changes. Not when you say a prayer
Actually it isn’t because msn was created first. It’s because it was Eve who was deceived.
Amen, sister in Christ!
I wished people could see that it’s God’s love and protection covering woman keeping them in a safe place!
Some of the best preaching/ teaching I have ever heard comes from anointed women. Your position makes no sense especially when you consider the many women who obviously held leading positions in the New Testament.
I struggled with this verse and was convinced that women can teach and exercise authority over men, until God taught me that I can run the race with all my zeal and be in the wrong lane and be disqualified. So it was not easy but I surrendered to God like a child.
What leading positions in the New Testament are you referring to?
You really have to listen to them--they don't provide the punchy and explicit "yes, Paul forbids women to teach in church" that we're all waiting for. But man, they structured the conversation well. Love it.
They gave a very structured argument which did NOT make the answer unequivocally clear.
@@rrickarr, Paul of Tarsus is saying Peter the fisherman says something about Jesus' teaching and a woman speaks the Old Testament Scripture to prove that it is Jesus speaking with power beyond, yet from, the Torah. Sort of like how Jesus states fulfillment or Jesus states beyond action is thought is the same sin to Yahweh. The Jewish woman is from memory quoting the Old Testament to state how Jesus is using the Scriptures to clarify and extend the power of God in our lives and thus revealing Peter is right to state what he is stating.
Paul of Tarsus is saying that he is a rabbi and doesn't need a woman to clarify things for the crowd or congregation as that would be an insult to him. Paul can give Christian doctrine and prove the point by using Old Testament Scripture whenever he wants. Its' all already in his head to prove his own point or sermon as correct.
We are not to sit there and figure out how to tell women they have no power or value in the church. The Pentateuch gives more written rights to women than all other documents prior to 1930 A.D. excluding the Pentateuch. This honoring of women through written rights was only surpassed because Jewish women in Christian lands felt free enough to make more changes for women.
Proverbs 31 reveals women have power to do good and act in our world. So could women support the ignorant Peter the fisherman? You better believe it cause they did. Can women ask questions and learn and give the Gospel of Good News and train up new believers in "THE WAY" that they should go? You better believe it cause they did. But a few rules needed to be laid down. Men in authority could tell women to stop interrupting sermons so that preaching can be accomplished and the women should refrain from interrupting the sermons and merely ask questions after the sermon to their husbands first and then other men, like the pastor if they still have questions. In like manner, leaders and preachers in the church had authority to stop women from interrupting them with quotes from Old Testament Scriptures as a rabbi doesn't need their idiotic speeches bothering them cause if people like Paul of Tarsus wanted to quote Old Testament Scripture he'd do it, but Peter the fisherman likely had people questioning him and didn't mind the women quoting Old Testament Scriptures so that the crowds would know Peter was right.
Peter still had authority over the woman helping him.
Paul of Tarsus wanted people who were women to be silent as he was a rabbi and certainly did not need their help.
Did you ever see that movie, "End of the Spear" where women went to South America after their husbands were speared like dogs by the natives? Those women would be like Deborah over Israel to any converts they gained in Christianity. Those women would be like husbands over their family to their small Christian church. Yahweh would be proud of those women preaching and teaching with authority. Let's be very clear about this.
Would it be so wrong to simply conclude that it means what it says? 🤔
Yes, it appears that what Paul tells us is an inconvenient truth in today's feminist society.
What did he mean by “do not let…” he meant don’t do it.🤷🏼♂️ simple
I believe he meant what he said
I was disappointed they didn't discuss whether Paul was talking about his own opinions "I do not" as opposed to "You should not."
Quite an interesting thought. Mostly when Paul gave instructions, he used “you...”. So is this more a personal opinion? Also considering that Timothy was first taught by his mother and grandmother, and Paul asked that Pheobe be accorded the same respect as he in Romans 16:1-2, did these women not teach?
Paul just recited the words of Jesus so it wasn't his opinion or order, but the Lord's himself...
@@socmin030 can u cite a passage?
@@tinglegoblin3028 you mean like all of them?
@@socmin030 you're telling me all of Jesus's teachings were about not permitting women to teach 🤣🤣🤣 thanks for the laugh, troll
I've replayed this three times now thinking I missed the answer, only to come to the comments to realise everyone else missed it too 🤣🤷🏽♂️
If we look at 1 Corinthians 14:33-38 you will find it is in fact the LORD'S command that women must remain silent in the church assemblies, not just St. Paul's considered opinion.
"As in all the churches of God's holy people, 34 the women must keep silent. They don't have the right to speak."
"35 If they want to know anything they should ask their husbands at home. It's shameful for a woman to speak in church.
36 Did God's word originate with you? Are you the only ones it has reached?
37 Whoever thinks that he speaks for God or that **he is spiritually gifted must acknowledge **that what I write to you is **what the Lord commands**.
38 But whoever ignores what I write should be ignored."
1 Cor 14:33-38 (GW)
Anyone in here so 'gifted'?
I will certainly acknowledge the Lord's command and 'set the ball rolling'....
@@earnestlycontendingforthef5332 I
There was no answer given.
@@earnestlycontendingforthef5332, Paul of Tarsus is saying Peter the fisherman says something about Jesus' teaching and a woman speaks the Old Testament Scripture to prove that it is Jesus speaking with power beyond, yet from, the Torah. Sort of like how Jesus states fulfillment or Jesus states beyond action is thought is the same sin to Yahweh. The Jewish woman is from memory quoting the Old Testament to state how Jesus is using the Scriptures to clarify and extend the power of God in our lives and thus revealing Peter is right to state what he is stating.
Paul of Tarsus is saying that he is a rabbi and doesn't need a woman to clarify things for the crowd or congregation as that would be an insult to him. Paul can give Christian doctrine and prove the point by using Old Testament Scripture whenever he wants. Its' all already in his head to prove his own point or sermon as correct.
We are not to sit there and figure out how to tell women they have no power or value in the church. The Pentateuch gives more written rights to women than all other documents prior to 1930 A.D. excluding the Pentateuch. This honoring of women through written rights was only surpassed because Jewish women in Christian lands felt free enough to make more changes for women.
Proverbs 31 reveals women have power to do good and act in our world. So could women support the ignorant Peter the fisherman? You better believe it cause they did. Can women ask questions and learn and give the Gospel of Good News and train up new believers in "THE WAY" that they should go? You better believe it cause they did. But a few rules needed to be laid down. Men in authority could tell women to stop interrupting sermons so that preaching can be accomplished and the women should refrain from interrupting the sermons and merely ask questions after the sermon to their husbands first and then other men, like the pastor if they still have questions. In like manner, leaders and preachers in the church had authority to stop women from interrupting them with quotes from Old Testament Scriptures as a rabbi doesn't need their idiotic speeches bothering them cause if people like Paul of Tarsus wanted to quote Old Testament Scripture he'd do it, but Peter the fisherman likely had people questioning him and didn't mind the women quoting Old Testament Scriptures so that the crowds would know Peter was right.
Peter still had authority over the woman helping him.
Paul of Tarsus wanted people who were women to be silent as he was a rabbi and certainly did not need their help.
@@randyd9805, did you ever see that movie, "End of the Spear" where women went to South America after their husbands were speared like dogs by the natives? Those women would be like Deborah over Israel to any converts they gained in Christianity. Those women would be like husbands over their family to their small Christian church. Yahweh would be proud of those women preaching and teaching with authority. Let's be very clear about this.
THANK YOU TGC
Masterful discussion that cuts thru all of our arguments for women preaching and having authority over men. Thank you.
I would suggest that teaching is different to preaching.
@@leighclough100 Sorry you're OFFENDED.
Deborah was a judge. She had authority over men.
It almost sounds like Paul didn’t want women to teach in church.
So female pastors are sinning as we speak.
Lol! Almost!🙄 Amazing how unclear scripture becomes when it becomes socially unacceptable or not what we want.
@@vinnievu1 Hm, that would seem to follow.
Paul was quoting the Old Testament, not his own understanding like we do in America
@@factsfirst7621 And that's what we should do, right? It should not be based on our understanding, it should be based on what the Bible teaches, both Old and New Testament.
They are letting the passage answer the question. They are so respectful to other views while disagreeing. It reminds me of Paul calling those in Areopagus "very religious people."
What was it, the passage answered?
@choloengringolandia hi I apologize for cussing at you and having sexual thoughts and ask for forgiveness
They gave a non answer...
One of the main tenants of bible interpretation is that is there seems to be a contradiction, you have to did deeper because there are no contradiction in the bible. It's very clear that the bible seems to contradict itself on this topic, as we see woman being used by God to Lead and even prophecy through the bible. So how do we level that?
Take a look at the context of 1 Tim 2:12-15 -- He is speaking to the church church of Ephesus, which is in the city of the Artemis Cult... the same Greek cult that taught woman was created first and therefore would have rule over man.
This is why Paul says what he says... Don't allow women to teach nor USURP Authority... then he goes on to re-explain the order of creation.
We always have to ask ourselves, why is something being written! Paul was writing to address a specific issue in the church. Notice too that Paul never said he was against women in authority in the church, he was against women who USURP authority - as if by force. This is pretty clear and cannot be looked over.
Women in that region had grown up learning that they were above men because of false teaching, and this was creeping in to the church and causing a disturbance. Women were still dressing as if they belonged to Artemis, they were teaching the Artemis doctrines and they were trying to usurp authority. Paul wrote the letter as an authority figure to address this so that Timothy would have the authoritative backing to correct this in his church.
This is similar to the correction of woman in the church at Corinth, which was home to the temple of another pagan goddess - Paul Was addressing disorder in church services regarding Spiritual things - Communion, gifts, tongues, prophecy etc, and also addressed the woman who were speaking out of line and disturbing the service with questions and false teachings.
2000 years later we can take principles from this and apply it if we have similar things happening, but this is not a scripture that is plainly interpreted because of the fact there are other bible examples that seem to go against it. Always use EXEGESIS first, which is letting the bible tell you what it says, but if there are things that don't line up, you need to ask questions and find out why something was written - context, culture, authors intent.
I hope this helps someone out there!
I think they both new what they were talking about, but when you are trying to teach you need to remember teaching isn’t about how much you; with all these terms and concepts, but about how to lead people closer to christ & his holy word 🙏🏽 Respectfully.
I agree. ❤
Paul was simply trying to keep order within the service. Phoebe was a teacher/preacher than acted in Paul's behave to bring and instruct the Church in his latest writings. Plus Aquila and Priscilla were active in the ministry. Paul noted many women that the church were directed to support in the ministry.
@lyndadunna2777 well said ❤🙏
there are many many of us who are active in church, but are not pastors. Jesus had women following Him, but none were appointed as apostles. I do believe that women can a deaconess and a pastor, but not the pastor that is the leader of the Church.
@@richardbranche8873Hello!
The Bible doesn't even mention pastors. If someone is a pastor, I guess it means they're protestants. But many Christians are not protestants.
Ephesians 4:11 mentions pastors
She was a deaconess
Haven't even watched the video and based on the title, I can say Paul meant what he said and said what he meant from the Lord
No need to hear neo-Christian interpretation, period.
Amen!!!!
Amen
"didn't listen, lul"
Meant what he said and said what he meant. You're saying this based on your understanding of English or Greek. You're saying this by also taking into account Prisoclka taught Apollo, he personally worked with and comissioned Phoebe the Deacon to play a role in the Great Commission. You're saying this by taking into account what he meant when he said that women will be saved by childbirth? You're saying this by taking into account Lydya and Junia were his co-workers doing similar work as him? Check out NT Wright on the subject (TH-cam)
Its not the only passage where Paul commands the women to remain silent in the church
I Corinthinians 14
The Bible is easy to understand but for some people it's hard to swallow !
Because of our culture we feel the need to dance around this issue as if it’s some thing that’s not plainly black and white. I think that’s sad.
Does this apply to women teaching Sunday school, other women or youth group settings? If not, where does the Bible give an exemption for these situations. My point is that It is important to make sure that our interpretations are not based upon bias but a clear understanding of the word. The scripture says God will pour out His spirit upon all flesh and your sons and your daughters will prophesy which from my understanding is a forth telling of the revealed word of God. Just saying …….
Thank you for reminding people about Joel's prophecy in Joel 2:28-29 & quoted by the Apostle Peter in Acts 2:16-18. GOD is not looking at our gender, HE'S looking at our hearts. And by the way, every woman doesn't have a husband & some have husband's who don't know nor want the LORD. We have to understand that GOD doesn't think like man. Now IF men would step into the role of anointed, called by GOD leadership, then we, as women teachers, could sit back an relax a bit. Regardless of how mankind wants to translate or reconstruct the WORD of GOD, we all need to have a personal relationship with CHRIST. By the way Timothy was taught by women. GOD called Deborah to lead HIS CHOSEN people for 40yrs & she had a husband. GOD didn't call her husband and it's not said that he rebuked her or that she wasn't a good wife. Can we, men & women, just be soul winners. Let's keep one another in prayer.
Teaching Children and other Women / Young Ladies has nothing too do with teaching and having Authority over a Man. Yes it's ok to teach Young Children and teach other Women, but just as God created them first Male then the Female for the Man, to Compliment him and Vise Versa, but it's about how God Established a Order and who are We to Question The Lord's Order and His Word.
The certain conclusion is that scripture forbids women from holding Church office.
There's no examples of women Levi holding office in the Old Testament.
The 'prophetess(es)' in the Old Testament are not shown to hold any ceremonies like the Tribe of Levi do.
In the New Testament, Jesus has an all male ensemble.
Whilst if we are going to conclude that Paul forbade women from 'preaching'. Women 'preached'/'prophesied' in the times of the Old Testament. To men even.
In the New Testament, we have examples of women preaching in Acts, Luke, etc.
If we combine these two then we can say it is likely that Paul forbade women from holding authority over men, as in authority that Church office would give them.
So what does 'teach' here mean? If it's about the Bible, then the above.
Perhaps it's about things that are extra-biblical with Church or scriptural authority.
@@Sanctified_EDC_Gear 'To compliment him'. Not really. In Genesis, Adam was lonely. He was 'incomplete'. So God took pity on him and made Eve.
Now, Paul writes," God made Eve for Adam." For what purpose? A servant? Simple companionship? A friend? Nay, his wife. What does that imply? What is prevalent between a couple? Love.
I do not remember the person or the complete quote, but it went, "God made Eve from Adam's breastbone so that he may love her."
God made Eve for Adam for him to love her.
“I’ll do what feels right to me” has obvious pitfalls. Yet we’re all created differently, including our intelligence levels. My belief is that the sincerity and depth of our love for God will cover our unintentional misunderstandings of His word. And if a particular mistake is deemed sufficient, the Spirit will guide us into truth, as long as we’re faithful in our scripture reading.
How do you misinterpret easy verses like. I do not permit women to have authority over men.
@@jamesduck926 I don’t know. Maybe you should ask Him…
The Bible says no homosexual and other lifestyles shall enter heaven. Is that hard to understand.
@@jamesduck926 I’d say you best not be one..
@OldEnoughToKnowBetter the rest of the verse said …and follow me.
Finished, thanks for sharing
Prior to the 1960s, this verse didn't require an explanation, let alone a lengthy explanation.
Something is in the water. ..
I agree, and that something is false exegesis and results in twisting God's word to make it a lie.
Yes, and what happened in the late 1960s? The second wave of feminism arrived on the scene; and our society has steadily declined ever since.
Wait I know this one... Could it mean exactly what it says? Nah' God wouldn't dare offend our modern sensibilities.. or would he?
I always struggle with this, particularly reconciling it with the fact that Deborah in Judges quite clearly had authority over men, an entire nation for that matter. I understand there can be an argument contrasting church with a nation.
Accept her husband and ofcourse #1 God.
I feel the same way, There was also at least one female prophet (Huldah) and very likely even more. It would have been great if they had adressed this.
You struggle because there’s more keep thinking it will come LET ME HELP A LITTLE BORN AGAIN MEAN SOMETHING MEAN SOMETHING
@@nillewenne2934
Jesus replied, “Your mistake is that you don’t know the Scriptures, and you don’t know the power of God.
Debra and Huldah are so interesting. It's very specific that Debra was a judge, but she did not address (preach to) the nation. She sat under a tree and they came to her for advice and judgments. Huldah did not address the congregation either.
I am not here to argue. The commentator said “Give me something to work with and I will listen.” Women at that time were not educated and had not been allowed to study. Paul was giving them them a tremendous opportunity here. Paul did not want Ephesian women to teach because they did not have the knowledge or experience. So some believe that Paul was not forbidding women to teach in perpetuity but until they were educated.
Very clear, especially the end of the discussion
Conclusion: Women are restricted when it comes to teaching and authority in the church. What that specifically looks like today is up for conversation, but you can't hold the position that there are no restrictions without purposely discarding the text.
🤔 Under rated comment
Jesus drew me to God, Paul's apparent atitudes to several category of human including the female half, repel me and many others, and have caused much suffering down the years.If that was really what God feels about us, then would He really be worthy of our worship ?. Eve made a mistake ( so did Adam by the way, and God had told him better) and women have been blamed for the sins of men ever since. But Deborah was a prophetess, and Martha (and the woman at the well) were seeking souls whom Jesus treated as having as much right to hear him and think about spiritual matters as his men followers. Martha's society, like many worldwide historically, separated women and men in church , did not give women religious instruction or leadership in either church or public positions, and placed such limits on their earning power that loss of a male relative could result in starvation. Reading the gospels, I dont believe Jesus,who was good news to the poor and came to set prisoners free, would treat women this way. I haven't yet figured out what this means for Paul's authority to teach us, especially on authority. He seems to have disagreed with some disciples who actually knew Christ personally and who were also praying ,preaching, suffering and dying for Christ. All I can do is follow Christ and trust Yahweh knows what he is doing. I have a loving husband but he is my partner not my master, and we both support each other, since neither of us is perfect. Two men agreeing or not over the passage in question, as to whether its about one issue or two is irrelevant to the gospel of Jesus.
Describing the 1 Timothy passage as plain is being dishonest from both a theological and linguistic perspective is all I will say about this topic.
@@pingupenguin2474 - you probably also wouldn't believe that the Father would treat the Son that way (you know, pouring his wrath out on him).
You are mistaking Christian Standard Bible
Jesus answered them, "You are mistaken, because you don't know the Scriptures or the power of God.
May I suggest that Paul is speaking of "wives" when he says "women"? The context clarifies this when you get to the word "Husbands"; "Let them ask their husbands" Paul says. Paul is speaking to address the issue of confusion in church service because of the wives speaking up to ask their husbands questions regarding what is being spoken in the church service, which lends to confusion in the service. More context: Paul later says "as also says the law". In other words, Paul is telling the husbands that they should tell their wives not to confuse the service with talking, just as the law allows the husbands to do. Back in those days, almost every government had laws that a wife was to obey her husband. Funny thing, today there are still 19 countries in the world that have the same laws about wives obeying their husband under legal obligation. Still more context for this arguement is found when Paul says, "Let YOUR women keep silent". If someone said to me, "tell your woman to do this" I would know that he was referring to my wife. My woman would be my wife. This passage is addressing husbands and wives, and not forbidding a woman from being a speaker in a church service.
He meant exactly what he said, and it pertains to the roles or “parts of the body” he’d just spoken of in the previous 3 chapters. There is an order, and if its not kept it leads to more confusion, and we find ourselves where we are at today!
Always entertaining to watch people squirm and wrangle over blatantly sexist attitudes that prevailed thousands of years ago. Imagine what "Paul" might think if he knew there would be female police officers, military service members, CEOs, etc. in today's times.
God bless D.A Carson for sticking to the truth.
What about what Leviticus tells us to do!
The error too many of us believers make is to assume those touched by God to do his bidding on earth never had an agenda of their own and would not utter words, or do anything that wasn't of God. But we know that wasn't always the case. Many inserted their own understanding into what they were called to do/share with us.
That Paul give this instruction to Timothy, based in Ephesus, could give it a very definite localised meaning. Ephesus was the seat of Diana worship. In both Timothy epistles, Paul on several occasions warns against endless genealogies. This is hugely significant. The priestesses of Diana, so I'm informed, held a gnostic and perverse view of life. Women were more spiritually enlightened than men and only they were suitable as priests to Diana. They held the view that Eve was born first - suggesting her pre-eminence - and that Adam was her son. Hence Paul stresses that Adam was first and that Eve was deceived, thus refuting the idea that women in Ephesus taught with mystical, authoritative knowledge. Try reading both epistles again with those thoughts in your mind.
He means exactly what He says. A woman cannot pastor a church not shepherd a flock. Stop trying to go around Gods word.
Most scholar don’t have no spirit meaning Holy Spirit they speak foolishness
I question the accuracy of this passage, because MEN essentially translated the Bible, and the New Testament have a lot of missed translated scriptures. If you are saying what I think you are saying then what you say is false. One the church is not a place, it’s a people. Secondly, there are women that are leaders in the Bible, in the New Testament. Next, you are telling me God can use everything else, but can’t use a woman to lead a church (in your context), then that must mean he is not God of old then. Also, most of the time “man or men” are mentioned in scripture it meant Mankind. Contextually speaking, the reasoning for Paul statement was due to the issues going on with the women in that church, it had nothing to do with women as a whole. Context is everything, and you confuse ppl when you talk something different and use the name of God!
@@RayRay32216 brother I simply say to you, don’t be a Christian then. You said that it was translated and has errors and such, meaning you don’t even know if it was written that Jesus rose from the dead. It is not pick and choose, and we have the original manuscript and copies to actually check the original words. My brother what you are saying is heretical, you are calling into account the accuracy of God and His word. And btw, when a woman was a leader in the Bible it meant the nation was under curse. You cannot be a social justice warrior and disagree with God then say you are a Christian. Brother repent. It is wrong he GOD SAID! Is that not enough ? Or do you need a higher authority than God ? You are basing your opinion off of feelings, assumptions and implications, when what I said was based off scripture. If you disagree with God in one area, you are no Christian at all. We follow our Lord and we believe our Heavenly Father. Don’t make excuses because your pastor is “ good “ and happens to be a woman. That is heretical. Might as well make your own religion while you’re at it.
@@RayRay32216 my brother if it is of a deeper meaning when He says no woman shall be permitted to preach over a man, I don’t know how I should read the rest of the Bible. Because apparently verses mean the complete opposite of what they say in generality.
@@RayRay32216 it is purely unbiblical.
When was this recorded and is Tim Keller doing well? Thanks for any updates you can provide!
You can follow him on Twitter. He has provided some updates.
He’s now with the Lord 🙏🏿
It's very sad that there are so many comments that demonstrate a self righteous view. Whatever your view of this matter we all should be teachable in light of the scriptures. My wisdom and understanding of God's word is not the same as it was 20 years ago and my learning has come through prayer and careful study of the word of God.
John MacArthur (Grace to You channel) explains this topic much clearer.
Beautiful and right interpretation. It forbids women from the priestly ministry (that is to rule, judge and represent Christ’s headship over the church) but not from studying and sharing the gospel. It prevents women from assuming authority over men.
Brilliant indeed!
Furthermore, they have neither the moral nor the intellectual standing such a position calls for.
@Thanks anyway - anytime we need to put down another by saying, "they don't have the capacity to do...' you didn't listen to what these brilliant speakers have said AT ALL. They can teach, preach and disciple but not over congregations. It's not that they cannot its that it's not edifying. Eve can lead as women do today but is it edifying - not when it takes away from the core role of being home builders.
@@thanksanyway.3330 I'm praying for you today. May the Holy Spirit touch your brain, Amen.
@@ladyT2Dwerl They can hardly build anything when they aren't able to even build themselves!
@@Tarlyne Rather pray for yourself!
personally I am very torn about the whole thing. I am a christian. I believe the bible. That being said I have become very alarmed regarding this teaching by Paul, and to be brutally honest, alarmed at a few things that Paul has done. I find no fault in Paul's doctrine, how could I as it was imparted directly from the Spirit and he was not taught it by man. The problem I have is that we as a group of believers have held Paul up to be a perfect example of the doctrine he preached and a perfect example of the Lord Jesus Christ. I realize that this is a very unpopular thing to say but I believe that Paul still struggled in fully appropriating the things he preached in his own life and ministry. To be clear, I am not trying to defame Paul and as a mater of fact I can't think of anyone else who would have chosen to suffer as he did for years in order to preach the gospel and "mystery" of God to the church. Can you imagine being told by God "For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake." Acts 9:16. Back to the issue at hand. In my view two things can be at play here. 1) It was intrenched within the Jewish scriptures that women are second class citizens, the Rabis taught this for centuries. The Jews were as bad as the Muslims when it came to women, and much of the quaran and the respective jewish scriptures are identical regarding women. Paul being a good Pharisee would have been steeped in it. Do you know how hard it is to disown something that has been pounded into your head your entire life? I think that this would have been very hard to change in his attitudes. 2) to my knowledge Paul only mentions the prohibition against women in two epistles. Corinthians and Timothy. Because of this I believe that his instruction was largely situational. Both churches addressed had unique situations going on. The Church at Corinth was literally in a chaotic mess and the Church of Ephesus had problems with the local pagan church of Artemis trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. Artemis was the goddess of fertility and as such there were thousands of temple prostitutes roaming the streets and no doubt entering the church of Ephesus and trying to lead astray the people back to the old pagan ways they once lived in. neither place was an ideal situation for women in ministry. Although Paul in his explanation cites Genesis for his stance he does not elaborate why Adam sinned by partaking of the apple with Eve, there's a story to that. Personally I'm inclined to believe that is prohibition is situational because for it to be a blanket ordinance would be to go against previous Old Testament precedence. Regarding the other issues I have with Paul's actions such as, Circumcising Timothy, even though he preached against it. Taking the vow of the Nazarite (which would have included three sacrifices, one for sin) at least twice. Continuing to keep the feasts, etc I will have to continue to seek the Lord's light upon. I do know that we have to be very careful not to hold any of the apostles or ministers of old up as perfect examples. Paul had to correct Peter and Barnabas regarding their separating themselves from Gentile believers. Only the Lord Jesus Christ is to be put on that pedestal.
Paul was a grace-saved sinner just like the rest of us, and he says so in Romans 7. That he struggles with his sin mightily and realizes his salvation from his body of flesh is Jesus is of no comfort to those of us who cannot encapsulate his theology in our spiritual lives. Most argumentation of theology is centered in Paul's contested epistles, not his uncontested ones. I do not see any discomfort in Jesus' ministry regarding women, nor do I see women a step behind the men following Him. Jesus revealed Himself as Messiah to a Samaritan woman, not a man, and relied on her to spread His Name. Many examples of faithful women are revealed in the tetraeuangelion, and these should be identified before relegating this argument to being one of complimentarianism. This is an uneducated cop-out. Keep studying the scriptures and especially read the 4-Gospels as a harmonious unit like it was read 1st-2nd century.
I think that part of the understanding of the context of this passage in 1 Timothy 2 is that Paul gives a similar message in 1 Corinthians 14. This is an excellent point to make to show that what we are dealing with is transcultural. Timothy practised his ministry in the church in Ephesus, where Paul's other letter was to the church in Corinth. Two different churches in two different regions. However we interpret what was meant by these letters, we must accept that the message is transcultural and not specific to a particular situation.
Read the book What Did Paul Really Said About Women by John T. Bristow. We have to keep in mind that the culture was different then. Paul was actually writing a letter to a specific church with a specific problem (not all the churches of that time) , plus we only hear one side of the conversation and concerns at that time.
“how do you know it’s true for all time” -- good question
Because God said so and he does not change. If God's word can change then we are like a ship without a sail . Going nowhere fast.
@@johnno8973 Do we still sacrifice lambs at the altar?
@@fefemarks315 Not anymore. Jesus was the last sinless lamb on cross for the whole world.
"What Did Paul Mean by ‘I Do Not Permit a Woman to Teach’?"
- He meant exactly what he said. Women are not to teach. Full stop.
If he meant something else, he would have said something else.
Why did Paul say, "I do not permit a woman to teach...." Instead of " Women should not be permitted to teach..."
@@AT-ze7sz "Why did Paul say, "I do not permit a woman to teach...." Instead of " Women should not be permitted to teach...""
My guess is that it doesn't matter much. It's semantics. The meaning is clear. Seeing as how Paul was the head honcho in the Church back then, I'm quite sure he meant what he said.
He did say something else...Romans 12 is one of several.
Many biblical scholars today deny that Paul actually wrote 1 Tim., 2 Tim., or Titus (see ESV Study bible commentary). So like the gospels, we don't know who wrote this, why they wrote it, what their agenda was, and their intended transcultural meaning or application. We do know that 1 Cor 14:3 "...women should be kept silent in the church..." was not found in earlier manuscripts. Maybe men in the early church, meeting in the domain of women at the time, the home, wanted to shut them up. Now that's probably a trans-cultural issue.
Exactly what he said
As John Mac stated, it is based on a timeless truth which is creation. Creation is transcultural which is exactly what both pastors are saying. Exactly that as one of my fellow Christians in the comments said
I really appreciate your discussion about this topic, and certainly your many other works and contributions that have helped me personally in my faith.
With regards to this topic, I would like to suggest that the passage in 1 Tim. 2 is not necessarily transcultural, nor do I think that Paul was trying to create a stumbling block for women’s participation in worship. Certainly our faith is dependent on the work of the Holy Spirit in us (who are empty vessels ready to be filled by Him), and His gifting according to His mercy and grace. Verses in the Bible such as Joel 2:28 clearly leaves no one out, and there’s no shortage of verses and examples in the Bible, along with historical and present day accounts of God moving mightily in women, including in the role of teaching. So I can’t see Paul ostracizing women from this role as a generally applied directive, but rather a specific instruction for a particular time and context - and I believe the text supports this argument.
Many read this passage and automatically jump to the negative narrative, and assert that Paul is being misogynistic, when in fact he is actually trying to protect the women of that time from judgement. I believe that Dickson’s argument of the difference between “teaching” and “preaching” is valid and applicable. We know this when we look at other passages where Paul makes the distinction between these gifts (1 Cor. 12:28, Rom. 12:4-8, etc.), and as you read his and other letters, it is clear that this distinction was understood among 1st Century Christians. In James 3:1, James strongly cautions the brethren/believers about not seeking to become “teachers”, because there is a greater judgement for those who teach incorrectly. “Teaching” is meant for those who can read, interpret and explain the Word correctly, whereas “Preaching” is intended for witnessing and sharing the good news after one has been taught. Paul is discouraging women of that time from “teaching”, not “preaching”. (and not from prophesying, speaking in tongues, performing miracles or any other gifting/ministry either). It is clear from the passage that women were not in a position to be properly equipped to teach. You need mentorship to become a “teacher”, similar to how Paul studied under Gamaliel (Acts 22:3), but this was not available to women of that time - only to men - and he didn’t want women to use their new-found freedom to assume the role of teaching without proper training (additionally, considering the very low literacy rates of the time among men, women would be even less privileged to have an education, making matters worse). So given the opportunity, there’s no reason why women can’t teach or be Pastors. Paul uses the illustration from Genesis because God told Adam directly about the forbidden fruit in Genesis 2, prior to Eve being formed. Adam would have shared the knowledge about the forbidden fruit with Eve after she was formed. When Eve was tempted/questioned by the serpent/devil, she was unable to correctly respond/deceived, and eventually sinned, causing judgement on herself and Adam (to be clear, Adam sinned as well). Paul is basically trying to explain how important it is to have a full understanding and knowledge of the word, otherwise you will be prone to fail/sin, which the women of that time would have been in a position to do so. Paul ends the passage about women “saved through childbearing”, not in the context that this is their only purpose (as Augustine incorrectly interpreted and asserted), nor that every women who gives birth gets saved and goes to heaven, but rather imploring women of that time that, if they want to do good, then they can carry out a very important role of “teaching” (without facing judgement, and thus “saved”): which is to raise up Godly children “in faith, love and holiness with propriety”.
Wow!! This is impressive. Your "teaching" or interpretation feels to me as if truly inspired by The Holy Spirit. Very balanced. God Bless you...😊
@@lynette4412 Thank you, and blessings to you as well!….and yes, I take no credit for this, but it is the Holy Spirit’s inspiration after praying over this passage for some time.
@@sjarjoura9188 I agree with Lynette although I would add that a fathers influence on, and teaching of their own kids is also important.
@@pingupenguin2474 Yes, absolutely! I used the word "only" in reference to “childbearing”, but I can see how that can be misinterpreted, so I removed it. Thank you.
Thank you so much for this. THIS sounds like Jesus. Truly inspired and really helped me I am obsessed with tackling the tough passages of the bible especially new testament and I feel so much better finding a positive and Godly message in this one instead of the negative misogyny that it has been used for over centuries.
This is where we get extreme misuse of and tolerance of unearned authority that we see in evil people like Joshua Duggar.
Joel 2:28 “And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on ALL flesh;
Your SONS and your DAUGHTERS shall PROPHESY ,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions.
That was God himself talking
Yes we are all called to share th good news HOWEVER within a church setting (eldership and Teachers) Scripture is clear and has clear qualifications in which a female is not permitted. A female can teach females, a female can do youtube videos etc. we are called to share the gospel HOWEVER as stated previous within a church setting the parameters are set. Its not a cultural issue, its GODs words clear as day
@@SlidingOnSoftTops surfing with graves??
@@trulyso734 so you just flat out ignore the conversation at hand.. my last name is graves.. pretty simple concept really when things are used in context.. just like woman in certain roles
It really angers me when people take the most clear and plain scriptures and say: “What did the author “really” mean when he said these things?” It’s just so ridiculous, it’s not even funny.
Honestly, it is deceitful to even question the obvious.