A lot of people in the comments here already saying that Keller and Carson didn't answer the question. In case you didn't catch it, they both conclude that 'having authority' means taking a leadership role through preaching, that this command is not exclusive to that time/place because its linked to creation, and that the passage is plain in what it means - and that's that there is a restriction on women preaching and having authority.
@@andyboreland Yes it seem quite clear to me. I think they are being gentle in the way they express their views too when people are used to those who stand up and shout about what they believe is right.
I have also noticed these interesting Scriptures: Women are allowed to prophecy in the church. (1 Cor. 11). Then there's 1 Cor 14:26 - “How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation.” Does that mean everyone but not women? And then there's 2 Timothy 2:24 “And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, ...”
If you continue on in that same chapter (1 Timothy chapter 2) and look at verse 15, since the scriptures say what they mean and mean what they say, do you think women are not saved by the same method as men? Grace through faith? 15 Notwithstanding she SHALL BE saved in CHILDBEARING, IF they CONTINUE in faith and charity and Holiness with sobriety. So women cannot be saved without bearing children? What about all the women who never had a child, salvation is not available to them? And by this scripture is her salvation contingent upon her walking out an entirely flawless life by continuing in "charity and Holiness with sobriety?" So does that mean she has to prove her worthiness and earn salvation by living this flawless life? Are you saying that Ephesians 2:8 and 9 saved by grace through faith does not apply to women, only available to men? If so is there another verse of scripture that agrees with your findings? In the mouths of two or more witnesses let everything be established. (Deuteronomy 19:15) Ephesians 2:8 and 9 8 for by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 not of works, lest any man should boast. Please enlighten, obviously i am not reading the scriptures correctly.
@@media333 thank you for bringing up this point. In John 20:17 Jesus sent Mary Magdalene to go and tell the brethren the most important message ever known to mankind. Imagine that, He trusted a woman to take this message. Thank God He didn't send her to this church where she would not be allowed to bring this message for fear of her trying to usurp authority.
@@rgnold2517 I'm not a Bible scholar or anything but all's I know is that Paul wrote to Timothy and told him what the qualifications to be a pastor are, you can look them up
@@sidripster506 that's why 2 Peter 1:20 reads: knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. You can't take a single scripture and make it a doctrine, it must agree with the whole of scripture. Lot's of people are teaching scripture that cannot correlate it with the whole word of God. By the way, women are saved the same way men are: by grace through faith.
The Bible is very clear on the point being discussed. If you have an issue you should take it to God. Stop all this nonsense. Try letting the Bible speak.
Honestly I’m a woman, mother and a wife to a man who is not in the same path as me living and breathe life through the word and gospel of Jesus Christ. My husband for example does not lead our family according to what the Lord ordained him to do as the head of the family. I, myself in the other hand have no choice because of my love for Christ and what he has done for a sinner like me, I study the gospel and teach my children his word and sometimes teach my husband. I know how blessed I am in my relationship with the Lord and I believe we are all his children ordained to be his ambassadors in this foreign world. If I have to stay back and listen and obey my husband as the one with authority according to this verse than my life and our family could have been totally occupied by Satan.
@@LesA.R.6568 don’t take free will too personal. God direct my path from the very beginning. God sees my future before I even get there because he knows my heart. I thank God every day for blessing me with this man. God can really turn the impossible and make it possible and he really sees the light of Jesus through my daily walk with our God.
This verse and a few more has opened my eyes to realize the depravity of our humanity. Because even as scripture-believing Christians, once or when a verse does not appeal to or with our sentiments and emotions, we have the tendency to create a narrative that interprets it to suit our sentiments and emotions. It is indeed a bruise in the ego and emotions to say "woman cannot teach", but it is what it is, GOD can NOT be questioned about HIS order of and in creation, in heaven or here on earth, but our emotions and sentiments as humans have a way of leading us into a path of rebellion, when we don't like what we are hearing. We turn into Social Justice warriors and philosophers in the face of a very clear, precise and unambiguous scriptural order. May GOD give us a heart of humility and obedience. Amen.
To be fair, it's not as if everyone who questions this is not wanting to follow God or being rebellious. We are reasonably trying to make sure we are understanding scripture correctly. If this passage does, indeed, mean that for all of time, God does not permit women to ever be pastors, then I ans many others would surely obey that gladly, because God is God, and His authority is absolute. But you can't act as if anyone trying to ensure we are understanding this scripture properly is just doing so out of rebellion or an unwillingness to follow a command they dont like. I personally do have a heart of humility and obedience towards God. I'm just trying to make sure I'm not obeying something man has misunderstood, that God didn't actually intend. Which I think is pretty wise and reasonable. I'm sure many other people who question the meaning of this passage feel similarly.
Are you saying Paul of Tarsus is God I think not. He was a man who spoke many true things for sure but he was not messiah and messiah did not teach women they must be silent and could not teach and that salvation was though pumping out kids. I personally know salvation doesn't come through childbirth because I have given birth five times. Salvation comes through faith in what messiah did and showed us and messiah never taught us that nor did Philip the evangelist who had actually been taught over time by messiah, had four virgin prophetic daughters that were not silent. Paul would not even have been born if Esther and Deborah had not spoken and taught. And neither did so with their husbands permission either. So I think either this part of scripture was added to or removed from or Paul was having a bad day and just couldn't handle it. I forgive whoever did it in any case but I will not abide by this curse. I will braid my hair if it gets in my way, I will love and teach and speak when called upon to do so, and I possibly won't have anymore human baby's even though I can safely do so for the next two years if my boyfriend and I get married under Gods will.
God's word must not be changed to be politically correct. I'm a woman and know what work God has blessed me with and that is a helper for my husband and build our foundation . Pastors and ministers must stop appeasing hurt feelings.
Also look at some of the major roles women have in the bible. Including prophecy and at times key strategic advisors. Let it not be forgotten the divine participation in bringing the Savior to this world. etc etc.
Woman, and I am one, are firstly to cover their heads, and long hair is clearly not the only cover. Once you do that, it has a profound effect on you, it constantly reminds you that you are under the male authority.
Amen Sister in Christ! Head covering is a "symbol" of authority and that we do submit to the creation order. Knowing (finally) our BEAUTIFUL role and having crystal clear instruction on EXACTLY what we teach younger women (the text spells it out...that which is good...to love and keep the home ect.) is such a relief! Can you imagine if our women's groups focused on the good deeds we can do in the Church together instead of trying to be like the men!!! Not to mention at home if men were being trained to be the head of the home (a micro sphere like the Church) in discipleship and leading the family based on the knowledge of God's word. Of course women know God's word and that's why we submit to our role in perfect unity under God with our men!
Simply let women be equal to men in all offices of the church. Judge the outcome. There are too many biblical that are silly, and irrelevant to where people are today in terms of culture. Secular powers recognized that women have leadership gifts too. It is about time religion caught up.
The way that I have heard this theme of men and women is equal in the eyes of God, equally loved and equally important to the Kingdom but they have different roles.
@@8784-l3b God used Deborah because he couldn't find a man to do the job at that time. There were no women priests. They were to be the sons of Aaron. Not daughters of Aaron.
Honestly - two white males. What a narrow section of the church and therefore of godly understandaing of Christ's church and His plans for it. Many societies restrict women ( see Afghanistan today) but not God, who down the years has constantly challenged our mental boundaries of who can do what. Jesus first evangelists were the women at the tomb post resurrection. It was the men's sin that they did not believe them and were dismissive of a women's testimony. Same of women preachers today, many with years of study and wisdom/ experience. There were old and new testament female prophets and judges. Locally to me is a woman whose preaching in church brings folks to Christ, and one whose witness in Costa bears much fruit. If men did the Sunday School I bet the retention rate would be higher because men still hold their own kinds' witness higher than that of a woman. Its sin but its a fact and until God humbles us before him it will remain so.
Timothy Keller’s Comment, ‘Paul is definitely forbidding something...’ helps us focus on the text. But another question or comment must be raised: Paul is forbidding someone. Both Keller and Carson will know that the Greek words used by Paul can accurately be translated ‘woman-man’ or ‘wife-husband’. For example, when Paul says to the Ephesians, ‘wives submit yourselves to your husbands... Husbands love your wives,’ he uses the same words. In that passage, context determines the translation ‘wife-husband’ because we do not regard all women needing to submit to all men, or all men loving all women as Christ loved the church. Those things are reserved for the intimacy and structure of the family. In their discussion Keller and Carson correctly refer to the creation context of Paul's remarks. Does creation teach us that all men have authority over all women and that all women must submit to all men? Or is the creation principle that when a man and a woman become one flesh, as did Adam and Eve, there cannot be two heads? Do Keller and Carson expect their wives to submit to all men in their church? How would that chaos ever be workable, with every wife needing to submit to and follow the instructions of a hundred or a thousand men? I imagine these two men would see submission and authority as being within their family units between themselves and their wives. That is what God created when he created one man to be united to one woman, thus completing each other. Perhaps this gives at least a hint that Paul’s words to Timothy might better have been translated as husband and wife, just as they are in over fifty places in the New Testament. It is worth noting that in 1 Timothy 2, Paul also speaks of women being saved by bearing children. It is a mysterious comment, nevertheless, our Christian worldview would suggest that pregnancy and birth are rightly connected to the family and marriage. The above comments do not argue a case other than for serious contextual and linguistic work on a text. When we approach scripture to support a predetermined view, it is too easy to leave off the due diligence required by the text. The other difficult passage in 1 Corinthians 14 about women being silent, on analysis, can only apply to married women with believing husbands. ‘They must be in submission…’ to whom? All males? Or their married ‘head’? We know from a previous chapter they can pray and prophecy, but if they have questions, says Paul, ‘they should ask their own husbands at home.’ Would Keller or Carson feel that a woman asking them a question to help her understand what they as the speaker said, is a rebellion against the created order? Or do the words ‘submission’ and ‘own husband’ indicate that something else is at issue in Corinth? Amidst all the discussion, the one core question is this: What does the Gospel of redemption mean for women? Is theirs a limited atonement, or complete atonement; a return to who they were at the beginning or are they to be ongoing custodians of the sin of Eve? What of Eve’s actions, along with Adam’s actions, did Christ take upon himself on the cross? When that is resolved, our interpretation will be in agreement with the Gospel.
Thank you for articulating this so well. It really does seem sometimes like the idea of "context" and "intentional study of the scripture and its history" are vital - until it comes to this specific verse. Then all of a sudden we become heretics for dissecting the scripture. It seems like people are encouraged to study the bible further, except when it comes to this verse. If we try to ask questions and look deeper, then we have a faith issue. Do we enforce 1 Timothy 3:4 with as much zeal? Are there panels discussing what it means for a male pastor to "keep his children under control with all dignity"? Or do we just giggle and roll our eyes at the "Pastor's kid who's going through a phase"? It's not my intention to be a contrarian - but as a woman who was raised in church and loves Jesus, it's been frustrating to see how this topic has been handled. And the conversations rarely ever address how God then intends to use women for His glory and kingdom, if it really isn't in preaching. The conversation seldom ends with encouragement and strengthening in the Lord for all women. It usually just ends with "it is what it is, get over it", and women are left to stumble upon an area of service where they hopefully won't be deemed offensive.
OK, So does that excuse the act of direct disobedience to GODS word? Why was there a woman "pastor" over men in the first place? How did this "I had to do it" action work for King Saul when he decided that he would make the sacrifice because he thought it was taking the prophet to long to arrive?? He stepped out of his ordained place and GOD declared that "I have rejected him as King" because he did this....how is a woman pastoring or leading with that excuse any different???
@@bryanlatimer7653 why are men failing to lead is the better question? God if they want to be leaders get up your butt and lead. This has been a continual issue since Adam and Eve. Adam failed miserably at leading his own wife and she was deceived, yet he knew what God said and went along with it.
It is very clear what Paul says And it is also very clear that the Bible has many instances of women 'preaching'. Be it Old Testament, Acts, prophecy of Joel in the end times, or in Luke.
@@blackwiddowflainfrost6705preaching is not prophecy. I doubt that someone who so easily equates the two will be easily persuaded, but perhaps others reading will not fall victim to this folly you spout.
What did they really mean is a valid question sometimes. e.g. Jesus saying he is the door...cut off your arm if it causes you to sin...it all takes exegesis
They completely ignored context, the situation in Ephesus and why Paul would counter the "woman came first so worship Artemis" culture. Making this prohibition for all women, everywhere, for all time, makes Paul contradict himself when he commends Priscilla for teaching Apollos, and commends women to be modest (cover their head) when they pray and prophesy in public worship. Context, context, context.
@Bessie Colbert, Paul of Tarsus is saying Peter the fisherman says something about Jesus' teaching and a woman speaks the Old Testament Scripture to prove that it is Jesus speaking with power beyond, yet from, the Torah. Sort of like how Jesus states fulfillment or Jesus states beyond action is thought is the same sin to Yahweh. The Jewish woman is from memory quoting the Old Testament to state how Jesus is using the Scriptures to clarify and extend the power of God in our lives and thus revealing Peter is right to state what he is stating. Paul of Tarsus is saying that he is a rabbi and doesn't need a woman to clarify things for the crowd or congregation as that would be an insult to him. Paul can give Christian doctrine and prove the point by using Old Testament Scripture whenever he wants. Its' all already in his head to prove his own point or sermon as correct. We are not to sit there and figure out how to tell women they have no power or value in the church. The Pentateuch gives more written rights to women than all other documents prior to 1930 A.D. excluding the Pentateuch. This honoring of women through written rights was only surpassed because Jewish women in Christian lands felt free enough to make more changes for women. Proverbs 31 reveals women have power to do good and act in our world. So could women support the ignorant Peter the fisherman? You better believe it cause they did. Can women ask questions and learn and give the Gospel of Good News and train up new believers in "THE WAY" that they should go? You better believe it cause they did. But a few rules needed to be laid down. Men in authority could tell women to stop interrupting sermons so that preaching can be accomplished and the women should refrain from interrupting the sermons and merely ask questions after the sermon to their husbands first and then other men, like the pastor if they still have questions. In like manner, leaders and preachers in the church had authority to stop women from interrupting them with quotes from Old Testament Scriptures as a rabbi doesn't need their idiotic speeches bothering them cause if people like Paul of Tarsus wanted to quote Old Testament Scripture he'd do it, but Peter the fisherman likely had people questioning him and didn't mind the women quoting Old Testament Scriptures so that the crowds would know Peter was right. Peter still had authority over the woman helping him. Paul of Tarsus wanted people who were women to be silent as he was a rabbi and certainly did not need their help. Did you ever see that movie, "End of the Spear" where women went to South America after their husbands were speared like dogs by the natives? Those women would be like Deborah over Israel to any converts they gained in Christianity. Those women would be like husbands over their family to their small Christian church. Yahweh would be proud of those women preaching and teaching with authority. Let's be very clear about this.
Such a blessed person !! Amen. Let’s remember that God placed St. Mary way up top …. And he came through her to redeem us - But when it came to this point he put this rule .. let’s just respect God’s rules ..
I DIDNT RIGHT THID BUT THIS IS THE ANSWER ..... What is amazing is that this clear and simple scripture needs explanation. Mankind is so full of ourselves as we say we just don’t understand what it can mean. It means what it says and it says what it means. We are under God and His authority.
What is amazing is that this clear and simple scripture needs explanation. Mankind is so full of ourselves as we say we just don’t understand what it can mean. It means what it says and it says what it means. We are under God and His authority.
AS LONG AS we remember that same authority said to love your wife as Christ loved the church which has been abused and thrown out the window so much for so many hundreds of years that it is no wonder women don't want to hear "obey" any more. I DO believe in the headship of the man but that same man has a serious covenant to follow to love his wife and children too.
Dude, seriously? I think one of the many issues here is the amount of abuse over the centuries that women have suffered that has been justified by this text
@Mrstrikerace Great, but we are not talking about you obeying any man, we are talking about whether women can be priests and pastors according to the new testament
Also remember, men-we need to "respect women as the weaker vessel and heirs with us of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder our prayers." If we are acting and speaking harshly or treating women with disrespect then we are not fulfilling our role properly. Jesus called us to love, not to look down on others.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Smart response! Always good to reference back to the bible more thoroughly, and consult what God's Holy Spirit teaches us, over all teachers however well meaning. So let me see.. on recap, the More Foundational Truths.. as relevant.. start from appreciating things the way it should be for those who are His (i.e. Spiritually/Heavenly Minded Born Again ones, not earthly sensually minded ones). Consider firstly In the beginning, the Lord God created humans -male and female in His Image! (The goodness and beauty of Dignity, Value, Heart and Thinking functions etc). Both male and female were then told to go populate the earth and have dominion over all other living things that He had created just days earlier. (The woman was created a like kind out of the created man's Side rib, not from under his feet. So nope, no mention of leadership over her in that beginning Perfect Garden of Eden). Then, further portions of the bible across the new testament tells that In the context of a family, the husband and wife must Both train the children up.. so that Leadership of the household from that perspective is effectively a shared one! And finally, Less we all forget, the bible says the two become one flesh in marriage where they are both then Joint heirs to the inheritance of glory in Christ Jesus! The teaching of 'headship' is only purely for reflecting Christ.. just as He is the head of the church!! Not to be abused in terms of a power status 'authority' by lack of a true spiritual understanding of what headship actually means in instruction! Of course as his woman/wife is to be a person submitted to Christ herself, she is not to competitively usurp or turn over her husband's roles/strengths to make it hard for him to fulfil God's calling in his life. Anywayz of less relavance to most probably, I muse over a question I doubt any of these leaders have an answer for. that is, What of a single woman's ministry roles if by God's will, she is single, or say she remains single after the death of her husband, what then if she has strengths and God's leading to care for / pastor others, or teach the Bible?? I imagine to her, such unbalanced readings into scripture to support an all-men cast in the house of God baffling, annoying and ultimately a turnoff, sorry to say.
When it comes to Paul's letters, they tend to be contextual. Paul didn't write general letters like the other epistles, he wrote specific letters to individual churches. I understand what you're saying about not trying to overcomplicate things, but when it comes to Paul, it is kind of complicated. People during their time had the same issue we have today, and we know this because it says it in 2 Peter 3:16 Researching the culture and trying to know why the letter was sent to begin with makes his letters a lot clearer. God bless
@@Jesse-ig8mm it’s clear that the intent of First Timothy 2:12 is Paul’s personal preference or preference for that particular church that they’re talking about which some say is Ephesus. However, Second Timothy 2:15 does say to compare scripture with scripture “ rightly dividing the word of truth”. So what else does Paul say about women talking or having place in church. We end up in First Corinthians 14:34-36 , if you read only the first two verses you get a totally different picture than if you read all three. Verse 36 indicates that the first two verses were Paul being sarcastic. In Verse 34 and 35 he says that women Shouldn’t be allowed to speak at church and if they have any questions they should ask her husband for an answer at home. Then in verse 36 he says . “ WHAT ? “ Came not the word of God out from you or came it onto you only? “
@@Jesse-ig8mm I forgot to add that Galatians three Says that we are all God’s children once we are baptized and there is neither Greek nor Jew male or female, Just heirs to the promise.
@@Heavensoon7 Verse 36 of 1 Corinthians 14 does not indicate that verses 34 and 35 are sarcastic. Verse 36 is the sarcastic verse. In 1 Corinthians 14:33 you see Paul chastise the Corinthians for not doing what is done in all of the other congregations. And in 1 Corinthians 14:34 Paul says women are not to speak as the law says. So in 1 Corinthians 14:36 he is chastising them by saying that the word of God did not originate with them, meaning that they should stop doing things their own way.
@@sfkapacheoutlaw5348 that’s your interpretation of the verse in English. But I am part Hebrew and that’s not the Hebrew interpretation / belief. Only with the Sanhedrin and the Pharisees was there a law against women having a say . Jesus came to dispel those trumped up laws that were not part of his original law. In fact, the Hebrew nation valued the wisdom of their elderly women to such an extent that Anna lived in the temple complex as a valued prophetess, Deborah was Instructedto go inquire of God as to what the Israelites should do. Moses‘s sister Mariam was also a prophetess, and that is what made her teasing of Moses’s wife, Zipporah such a big deal. She was supposed to be an example. In the book of Acts we see that not only the sons but also the daughters were to be given visions in the last days. See Acts 2:7 in the New Testament and Joel 2:28 in the Old Testament. Note: what’s in the New Testament can be cross referenced in the Old Testament . God did away with nothing, He does not change, He has no shadow of turning, He restates and emphasizes what he’s already told us. When Jesus came to women were his biggest followers what attracted them to him? He didn’t put them down criticize them or made them feel insignificant he realized their purpose and showed great respect to his mother, even in his death. Man’s punishment was to work because had he not been so busy with his work he would have been at his wife’s side not stomping her down from above, but protecting. Woman’s punishment had to do with childbirth, NOT Having her ability her voice taken away. So why do you think her punishment was childbirth pain? Satan always waits to strike when we are most vulnerable. He flattered her about her beauty, why would he start the conversation like that? The Jewish belief/ Tradition passed down through history is that Adam and Eve immediately Obeyed God’s command and were fruitful and multiplying. Women who are pregnant like to eat, and they are very sensitive about their looks. Satan played on both of these. Hebrews told stories ,and then went back and added the details telling the story again with more details. So when did Adam know his wife and she bore the child? The Hebrew believe is she was already pregnant when God cast them out of the garden. That is why her punishments had to do with childbearing . She was deceived, but Adam knew full well the choice he was making. Had he not been so caught up in work, he might have taken better care of his family/ wife . Therefore his punishment fit the crime. The Snake let Satan use its mouth so it now has poison in his mouth and it was flown up into the tree to tempt and flashy with its wings so it lost the wings . It picks the fruit with his legs or hands so it lost those as well. God is just.
BRAVO!!! The TRUTH will always out.... Certainly 'one in the eye' for the purveyor of unrighteousness, Margaret Mowczko..... Let's be absolutely honest. The question on women preachers is not something that God's Word is unclear about. For what St. Paul declared is not unclear, its just unpopular in our present 21st Century.
Amen. That's why that passage about the eye of the needle definitely meant a camel animal and wasnt a mistranslation of a similar word for rope. This is most likely NOT the word of the lord. Ahhhhh men.
@@jerryp6001 the eye of a needle was a small entering in Israel that the camel had to put down all of its things to enter through the eye of the needle. Along with the passage it means us as Christians have to lay down things of this world to enter the kingdom of heaven
“I’ll do what feels right to me” has obvious pitfalls. Yet we’re all created differently, including our intelligence levels. My belief is that the sincerity and depth of our love for God will cover our unintentional misunderstandings of His word. And if a particular mistake is deemed sufficient, the Spirit will guide us into truth, as long as we’re faithful in our scripture reading.
Joel 2:28 “And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on ALL flesh; Your SONS and your DAUGHTERS shall PROPHESY , Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions. That was God himself talking
Yes we are all called to share th good news HOWEVER within a church setting (eldership and Teachers) Scripture is clear and has clear qualifications in which a female is not permitted. A female can teach females, a female can do youtube videos etc. we are called to share the gospel HOWEVER as stated previous within a church setting the parameters are set. Its not a cultural issue, its GODs words clear as day
@@trulyso734 so you just flat out ignore the conversation at hand.. my last name is graves.. pretty simple concept really when things are used in context.. just like woman in certain roles
The issue here is not "teach" or "authority" but "woman" and "man." The Greek words, Gyne and Aner, can also be translated as "wife" and "husband." They are in Ephesians 5, and this letter was written to Timothy while ministering to the Ephesian church. The translators decided, "here it means woman and man," but in Ephesians and other passages, the same words mean "wife and husband." That is their opinion on the textual evidence. Reread it with the same translation rules applied to Eph 5, and it says, "I do not allow a wife to teach or have authority over her husband, but to remain still (not a busybody), for Adam was formed first, then Eve." The passage is a household rule for authority between husbands and wives and has nothing to do with EVERYONE's mandate to proclaim the Lord's death until He comes. The text has nothing to do with preaching. That is why it is not in opposition to Acts 2:17-18.
Sorry the text makes it very clear why. It mentions the creative order that woman was made for the man, Not man for the woman and and that women are more easily deceived. So all the arguments about culture and the times or Greek words fall apart when he explains the reasons they aren't to teach or exercise authority over the man.
This is an interesting argument but when considering the audience of the letter and the context before and after the passage (especially the beginning of chapter 3… and remember that chapter breaks are not inspired) it is quite clear that Paul has an office in mind, not just a gender role in marriage. This harmonizes much more easily with the other biblical requirements for the authoritative offices of the church.
A teacher who studied the Greek explained: Women were not permitted to boss others around, which was the same for men. The Greek word ‘authentein‘ means lord over someone. The men were use to learning from scripture and each other but now the women were invited to learn! - see the previous verse - It was absolutely revolutionary what Paul was saying - so he clarifies, learn in silence, not stopping the meetings or shouting out questions. This was basic etiquette of learning which women had not been permitted to do before Jesus came and struck down that barrier.
@@darelet Jesus struck down the "barrier" because if we read through the gospels we see a lot of women who are followers and active students, interacting with the teacher (Martha and Mary of Bethany, also Mary Magdalene, and many more unnamed)... These are not actions women were permitted in their synagogue. The early church also has many women named in positions that required leadership, like hosting, caring, teaching within your own family whom Paul himself commended in many of his letters. But never as the word of authority for and to the Church.
@@ongjanette As the video pointed out, women are not barred from teaching fellow women, and serving in other roles. This is about women teaching men and having authority. The barrier does not negate this scripture, unless if you have another interpretation of what the text means. What do you understand by the scripture, if not what it says?
I believe they missed what was forbidden. It was not teaching, it was not authority, but it was the USURPING of authority. And this can be supported textually throughout the NT as the usurping of authority is forbidden regardless of sex.
@@lynette4412 usurp- taking forcefully something that is not rightfully yours - don’t follow anyone. Male or Female that usurps the authority of another.
Exactly! I recently discovered this by digging into the Greek words of this text and what those words actually meant. So much gets lost in translation. It really helps to search through the original language to determine what a passage is really saying. Usurping authority from men is actually what is intended here.
You gotta look at culture and what was going on in that day… scripture says, in Christ, there is neither male nor female…. scripture also say, I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh, your sons and daughters shall prophesies…Deborah was a judge and prophet, Miriam as a leader of the nation, along with Moses and Aaron. 2 Kings 22, King Josiah finds the long-lost Book of the Law. Knowing the kingdom was in need of revival, he gathered some of the most trusted prophets…Huldah the prophetess had a leading role in the restoration. There are even NT women, where teachers and prophets. Phoebe held the title of “deacon” (Romans 16:1), Priscilla, was a teacher (Acts 18:26) People study your Bible 🤔 Many churches have women working in the church…singing, ushering, etc🤔
I really appreciate your discussion about this topic, and certainly your many other works and contributions that have helped me personally in my faith. With regards to this topic, I would like to suggest that the passage in 1 Tim. 2 is not necessarily transcultural, nor do I think that Paul was trying to create a stumbling block for women’s participation in worship. Certainly our faith is dependent on the work of the Holy Spirit in us (who are empty vessels ready to be filled by Him), and His gifting according to His mercy and grace. Verses in the Bible such as Joel 2:28 clearly leaves no one out, and there’s no shortage of verses and examples in the Bible, along with historical and present day accounts of God moving mightily in women, including in the role of teaching. So I can’t see Paul ostracizing women from this role as a generally applied directive, but rather a specific instruction for a particular time and context - and I believe the text supports this argument. Many read this passage and automatically jump to the negative narrative, and assert that Paul is being misogynistic, when in fact he is actually trying to protect the women of that time from judgement. I believe that Dickson’s argument of the difference between “teaching” and “preaching” is valid and applicable. We know this when we look at other passages where Paul makes the distinction between these gifts (1 Cor. 12:28, Rom. 12:4-8, etc.), and as you read his and other letters, it is clear that this distinction was understood among 1st Century Christians. In James 3:1, James strongly cautions the brethren/believers about not seeking to become “teachers”, because there is a greater judgement for those who teach incorrectly. “Teaching” is meant for those who can read, interpret and explain the Word correctly, whereas “Preaching” is intended for witnessing and sharing the good news after one has been taught. Paul is discouraging women of that time from “teaching”, not “preaching”. (and not from prophesying, speaking in tongues, performing miracles or any other gifting/ministry either). It is clear from the passage that women were not in a position to be properly equipped to teach. You need mentorship to become a “teacher”, similar to how Paul studied under Gamaliel (Acts 22:3), but this was not available to women of that time - only to men - and he didn’t want women to use their new-found freedom to assume the role of teaching without proper training (additionally, considering the very low literacy rates of the time among men, women would be even less privileged to have an education, making matters worse). So given the opportunity, there’s no reason why women can’t teach or be Pastors. Paul uses the illustration from Genesis because God told Adam directly about the forbidden fruit in Genesis 2, prior to Eve being formed. Adam would have shared the knowledge about the forbidden fruit with Eve after she was formed. When Eve was tempted/questioned by the serpent/devil, she was unable to correctly respond/deceived, and eventually sinned, causing judgement on herself and Adam (to be clear, Adam sinned as well). Paul is basically trying to explain how important it is to have a full understanding and knowledge of the word, otherwise you will be prone to fail/sin, which the women of that time would have been in a position to do so. Paul ends the passage about women “saved through childbearing”, not in the context that this is their only purpose (as Augustine incorrectly interpreted and asserted), nor that every women who gives birth gets saved and goes to heaven, but rather imploring women of that time that, if they want to do good, then they can carry out a very important role of “teaching” (without facing judgement, and thus “saved”): which is to raise up Godly children “in faith, love and holiness with propriety”.
@@lynette4412 Thank you, and blessings to you as well!….and yes, I take no credit for this, but it is the Holy Spirit’s inspiration after praying over this passage for some time.
@@pingupenguin2474 Yes, absolutely! I used the word "only" in reference to “childbearing”, but I can see how that can be misinterpreted, so I removed it. Thank you.
Thank you so much for this. THIS sounds like Jesus. Truly inspired and really helped me I am obsessed with tackling the tough passages of the bible especially new testament and I feel so much better finding a positive and Godly message in this one instead of the negative misogyny that it has been used for over centuries.
Some things in scripture are so clear that they really require no explanation. This is one of them. He meant that women cannot: 1) teach (learning in silence excludes teaching); and 2) usurp authority over a man. I can't understand why this would need any further explanation, unless someone is trying to twist it to mean that women can teach.
Unfortuantely, some good meaning, believing people who are not steeped in the word, and don't know the Word of truth are confused. This is because of their ignorance of some scriptures combined with false teachings from some popular "teachers". They are being confused and decieved into believing "popular ideas and misinterpretations pressed upon them by people who want to conform to popular opinion". Most often, popular opinion is the world's view, not God's way. That's why it is SO important to ground yourself in the Word reading it yourself and prayerfully considering it, asking the Holy Spirit to reveal its truths to you. Acts 17:11 is a good approach for everyone . They received the Word with all readiness of mind, BUT searched the scriptures DAILY to see whether these things were so!
If it’s true that woman are not allowed to teach I can’t wait to have a first row seat to hear Jesus judge all the men who refused to teach Sunday school and the formation of spiritual minds of children and youth was left up to the woman. 25 years of children /youth ministry and I can count the men involved on one hand.
Two things can be true at once, the scripture can be true as well as the truth that men are not stepping up or into the role God has for them. I wish they would and I know that starts with each man. You have a point!
Clarification: Paul is only saying that women are not to teach or have authority over men in the assembled church, not children (1 Tim 2:12). Women are permitted and encouraged to teach children (2 Tim 1:5) and other women (Titus 2:4). Source: ESV Study Bible.
Read the book What Did Paul Really Said About Women by John T. Bristow. We have to keep in mind that the culture was different then. Paul was actually writing a letter and speaking to a specific church with a specific problem (not all the churches of that time) , plus we only hear one side of the conversation and concerns at that time.
It says what it says GOD has a plain we are to follow Men love your wife women obey your husband Dont provoke your children We do none of that Thats why we are in the boat we are in How hard is it to understand what Paul meant
I question the accuracy of this passage, because MEN essentially translated the Bible, and the New Testament have a lot of missed translated scriptures. If you are saying what I think you are saying then what you say is false. One the church is not a place, it’s a people. Secondly, there are women that are leaders in the Bible, in the New Testament. Next, you are telling me God can use everything else, but can’t use a woman to lead a church (in your context), then that must mean he is not God of old then. Also, most of the time “man or men” are mentioned in scripture it meant Mankind. Contextually speaking, the reasoning for Paul statement was due to the issues going on with the women in that church, it had nothing to do with women as a whole. Context is everything, and you confuse ppl when you talk something different and use the name of God!
@@RayRay32216 brother I simply say to you, don’t be a Christian then. You said that it was translated and has errors and such, meaning you don’t even know if it was written that Jesus rose from the dead. It is not pick and choose, and we have the original manuscript and copies to actually check the original words. My brother what you are saying is heretical, you are calling into account the accuracy of God and His word. And btw, when a woman was a leader in the Bible it meant the nation was under curse. You cannot be a social justice warrior and disagree with God then say you are a Christian. Brother repent. It is wrong he GOD SAID! Is that not enough ? Or do you need a higher authority than God ? You are basing your opinion off of feelings, assumptions and implications, when what I said was based off scripture. If you disagree with God in one area, you are no Christian at all. We follow our Lord and we believe our Heavenly Father. Don’t make excuses because your pastor is “ good “ and happens to be a woman. That is heretical. Might as well make your own religion while you’re at it.
@@RayRay32216 my brother if it is of a deeper meaning when He says no woman shall be permitted to preach over a man, I don’t know how I should read the rest of the Bible. Because apparently verses mean the complete opposite of what they say in generality.
I always struggle with this, particularly reconciling it with the fact that Deborah in Judges quite clearly had authority over men, an entire nation for that matter. I understand there can be an argument contrasting church with a nation.
I feel the same way, There was also at least one female prophet (Huldah) and very likely even more. It would have been great if they had adressed this.
Debra and Huldah are so interesting. It's very specific that Debra was a judge, but she did not address (preach to) the nation. She sat under a tree and they came to her for advice and judgments. Huldah did not address the congregation either.
Yes you’re right, and of course the Old Testament Scriptures override the New Testament Scriptures. Especially when they are examples of something as opposed to specific instructions - thanks for your brilliance, very sophistrycated
Read the book What Did Paul Really Said About Women by John T. Bristow. We have to keep in mind that the culture was different then. Paul was actually writing a letter and speaking to a specific church with a specific problem (not all the churches of that time) , plus we only hear one side of the conversation and concerns at that time.
She was a prophetess...It says nothing of her being a leader in her own capacity like anyone, say, Gideon. Moreover, Christ chose 12 male Apostles, that should tell you something.
And Isaiah says when a woman is in leadership it is because the country is under judgment and Deborah was the leader. She was a judge and that was God showing that Israel was under judgment and they were. They were oppressed by the canites for 20 years because they disobeyed God.
@@Me-ic3li 🤦♂️, the fact that you are so brainwashed that you literally point out that the “WORD OF GOD” blatantly contradicts itself and you STILL BELIEVE IT is mind numbing. I hope you get over your need for a god.
Does this apply to women teaching Sunday school, other women or youth group settings? If not, where does the Bible give an exemption for these situations. My point is that It is important to make sure that our interpretations are not based upon bias but a clear understanding of the word. The scripture says God will pour out His spirit upon all flesh and your sons and your daughters will prophesy which from my understanding is a forth telling of the revealed word of God. Just saying …….
Thank you for reminding people about Joel's prophecy in Joel 2:28-29 & quoted by the Apostle Peter in Acts 2:16-18. GOD is not looking at our gender, HE'S looking at our hearts. And by the way, every woman doesn't have a husband & some have husband's who don't know nor want the LORD. We have to understand that GOD doesn't think like man. Now IF men would step into the role of anointed, called by GOD leadership, then we, as women teachers, could sit back an relax a bit. Regardless of how mankind wants to translate or reconstruct the WORD of GOD, we all need to have a personal relationship with CHRIST. By the way Timothy was taught by women. GOD called Deborah to lead HIS CHOSEN people for 40yrs & she had a husband. GOD didn't call her husband and it's not said that he rebuked her or that she wasn't a good wife. Can we, men & women, just be soul winners. Let's keep one another in prayer.
Teaching Children and other Women / Young Ladies has nothing too do with teaching and having Authority over a Man. Yes it's ok to teach Young Children and teach other Women, but just as God created them first Male then the Female for the Man, to Compliment him and Vise Versa, but it's about how God Established a Order and who are We to Question The Lord's Order and His Word.
The certain conclusion is that scripture forbids women from holding Church office. There's no examples of women Levi holding office in the Old Testament. The 'prophetess(es)' in the Old Testament are not shown to hold any ceremonies like the Tribe of Levi do. In the New Testament, Jesus has an all male ensemble. Whilst if we are going to conclude that Paul forbade women from 'preaching'. Women 'preached'/'prophesied' in the times of the Old Testament. To men even. In the New Testament, we have examples of women preaching in Acts, Luke, etc. If we combine these two then we can say it is likely that Paul forbade women from holding authority over men, as in authority that Church office would give them. So what does 'teach' here mean? If it's about the Bible, then the above. Perhaps it's about things that are extra-biblical with Church or scriptural authority.
@@Sanctified_Leather 'To compliment him'. Not really. In Genesis, Adam was lonely. He was 'incomplete'. So God took pity on him and made Eve. Now, Paul writes," God made Eve for Adam." For what purpose? A servant? Simple companionship? A friend? Nay, his wife. What does that imply? What is prevalent between a couple? Love. I do not remember the person or the complete quote, but it went, "God made Eve from Adam's breastbone so that he may love her." God made Eve for Adam for him to love her.
"When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more adequately." Acts 18:26. Priscilla may have been in submission to her husband Aquila, or not, we are not told; but it seems apparent that she and Aquila both 'taught' Apollos.
@@timffoster Maybe so Tim. However I wonder about women missionaries who have humbly evangelised both men and women in underdeveloped nations who have never heard the gospel. I guess I have questions.
They did so in their home. This is not in the context of a local assembly of Christians. Women are still allowed to explain the bible to others. Just not have teaching or authority roles in the church service
But one thing we can be sure of; Apollos had inferior understanding and placed himself in submission to her teaching. He needed correction and he became very effective.
Preaching i don’t know but most Sunday school teachers are loving mothers but the preachers are men so wisdom are taught to our children by females that are the wisdom of God
Coloring books and bible stories is not exegetical preaching or teaching. Once our young men and women reach their middle teens it's safe to say they moved beyond coloring books and are now ready for solid teaching.
@@heymichaelcah, but how many are brought to the Lord at their mother’s knee, attribute their start on the Christian walk at the teaching of a loved Sunday School teacher?
You gotta look at culture and what was going on in that day… scripture says, in Christ, there is neither male nor female…. scripture also say, I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh, your sons and daughters shall prophesies…Deborah was a judge and prophet, Miriam as a leader of the nation, along with Moses and Aaron. 2 Kings 22, King Josiah finds the long-lost Book of the Law. Knowing the kingdom was in need of revival, he gathered some of the most trusted prophets…Huldah the prophetess had a leading role in the restoration. There are even NT women, where teachers and prophets. Phoebe held the title of “deacon” (Romans 16:1), Priscilla, was a teacher (Acts 18:26) People study your Bible 🤔 Many churches have women working in the church…singing, ushering, etc🤔 You will miss God, if you are worrying about who is bringing you the message. So many male preachers are messaging up😢
Some of the best preaching/ teaching I have ever heard comes from anointed women. Your position makes no sense especially when you consider the many women who obviously held leading positions in the New Testament.
I struggled with this verse and was convinced that women can teach and exercise authority over men, until God taught me that I can run the race with all my zeal and be in the wrong lane and be disqualified. So it was not easy but I surrendered to God like a child.
Paul was simply trying to keep order within the service. Phoebe was a teacher/preacher than acted in Paul's behave to bring and instruct the Church in his latest writings. Plus Aquila and Priscilla were active in the ministry. Paul noted many women that the church were directed to support in the ministry.
there are many many of us who are active in church, but are not pastors. Jesus had women following Him, but none were appointed as apostles. I do believe that women can a deaconess and a pastor, but not the pastor that is the leader of the Church.
@@richardbranche8873Hello! The Bible doesn't even mention pastors. If someone is a pastor, I guess it means they're protestants. But many Christians are not protestants.
Hey, Thank you guys for being "so clear", and stating it plainly and factually, "according to scripture". Which would actually look and sound something like this, Paul stated, I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, Why?........ Because "God said so" Thank you again
I struggle so hard with this teaching!! Father died when I was 2 1/2- I grew up having to do things that usually males do: Mow, paint, shovel snow, etc. Life was hard. when I became born again over 40 yrs ago and I read Paul’s admonition to Timothy: “study to show your self approved unto God, a workman that rightly divide the the world of truth.” I was young like Timothy and thought, St Paul’s words were for me too! I saw it as an “age” thing and not a “gender” issue.Studying Scripture has been my life’s passion. However, the problem is that I know more about early church history, the Bible, etc. than do most men who lead in the church. I do not have any desire to teach, lead, or do anything in church. But, the question is, how much of these restrictions are cultural in basis only? the Bible says men are not to wear their hair down to their waist, but we have some in church that do and pastor would not dare say anything to them about it. what about women who go to work outside the home? Back in Jesus day, women where supposed to have a male accompany them around town, weren’t they? Please do not think I say these things because I want to be a women pastor because I do not. I do believe that pastors should be male because they must be ready to lay their lives down for the sheep. I think men are more suitable in this regard. But, I do not see why women cannot be an elder, or do readings! Not all women work well with children and I am tired of being relegated to the the kitchen and nursery. Please pray for me - I am tired of this struggle…..
Sid Roth interviewed a man who was taken to Heaven and talked to Jesus, He gave special revelation on many scriptures including the "wives obey your husbands" scripture. Jesus explained that the Aramaic translation is correct : "wives, give honor to your husbands". This makes a huge difference, as the Lord doesn't want us controlled by anyone. Regarding Paul's writing regarding women pastors/teachers, I'm not sure because Paul also writes that women are preserved through childbearing. But many women never give birth, so that can't mean that they aren't preserved..... I agree that men are more like shepherds than women, however, I believe that women can still teach small Bible groups, become elders..... This confusion really needs to get straightened out, as there are many Christian women who are being treated like children by their husbands.
Priscilla helped teach a man. "And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly." I'm just going to put the Bible verses here "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety." I do admit that in the NIV it sounds a lot like this applies to every woman but to me from the King James Version this sounds like it is a specific case with a specific couple especially when Paul says that "she will be saved in childbearing" because that cannot apply to all women according to the scriptures. I don't think this applies to all women for these reasons but if any of you do I don't blame you. God bless
Here's the thing... the duty of leadership in a church falls to men by God's design, *not* because men are superior to women, but as an act of *chastisement* and a process of *redemption.* Paul clearly writes that the reason behind this is that the woman was deceived in the Garden of Eden. But what never seems to be talked about is what this implies... Eve was deceived by Satan, but Adam was not? And he chose to _do nothing_ when his wife, who he was responsible for protecting, ate that which was forbidden, and went ahead and ate it himself too? That's not just sin, that's open rebellion, the same thing that caused Satan's fall. Adam's sin is *worse* than Eve's. This is why, when done properly (and many times it isn't, as churches seem to lose their purpose), men are to have a more active role in the church and specifically in the Great Commission with which we're tasked, leading people to redemption and training disciples.
There is clearly more to the context than just "teaching" because one of the seven gifts of the Spirit is teaching, and clearly that isn't only for men, God is not a respecter of persons. So the bible clearly tells us there are women meant to teach. So there is more specific context here to be discovered.
I think the problem may be rendering somewhat ambiguous greek into English. v12 can be rendered, "‘I do not allow a woman to teach or hold authority over a man" or equally well, "I don’t mean to imply that I’m now setting up women as the new authority over men in the same way that previously men held authority over women" or even more simply, "I'm *not* saying that women should teach men" instead of "I'm saying that women should *not* teach men" The position of *not* in the simple version makes all the difference and IIUC, the Greek can be translated either way. Given its setting in Ephesus, which was all about a religion where women were in control, I think that the "not saying" option makes more sense. Not to mention that it totally resolves the conflict.
You clearly do not know Greek. The verb to say or any word that could be translated to imply is nowhere in the text. This is an outright lie. ⸂διδάσκειν δὲ γυναικὶ⸃ οὐκ ἐπιτρέπω, οὐδὲ αὐθεντεῖν ἀνδρός, ἀλλ’ εἶναι ἐν ἡσυχίᾳ. ΠΡΟΣ ΤΙΜΟΘΕΟΝ Α΄ 2:12 SBLG Literal translation is But to teach, a woman I do not permit nor to exercise authority man but to be in silence. There is nothing ambiguous in the above verse. Please, we should make an effort to not manipulate scripture to fit a our ideology.
@@felixguerrero6062 I absolutely do not know greek! (except for a few mathy letters like pi). Curious about the passage I looked for greek whizes to see how it could be rendered and what alternatives might be. That is how I found the one I gave above. I know that the source I found is from a well-respected theologian (>40 years as such, name withheld to protect the innocent ) who uses a greek NT in live discussions when being asked deep questions. I have to consider that translation as a credible alternative. The "I'm not saying" part is simply colloquial contemporary English, I believe. The gist of the alternate rendering is that the placement of "not" in the translation is somewhat flexible, I understand.
@@geraldbritton8118 Thanks for your clarification Gerald, sorry for my harsh tone. I genuinely suspect that the theologian that relayed to you that information was adding undue ambiguity to this particular text. Even the liberal protestant NT scholar Martin Dibelius translates the passage as follows in his well known commentary on 1Timothy. "But I do not allow a women to teach nor to have authority over a man, but rather she should keep silent" Of course the clarity of this particular text does not negate the important need to properly discern its correct implementation. God bless.
The other question is why more emphasis is not put on what men should do...' praying with hands raised and not to quarrel or argue". I don't see very many men praying with their hands raised consistently.
The Holy Spirit moved Paul to write. The Word is clear and direct. What the Lord desires of every Child of God will be in perfect harmony to the teaching of the Word.
@@jerrylanglois7892 One thing that stands out to me that if you blink you'll miss it is that the translation of what Paul said is that "I" would not allow this. This makes me wonder if this wasn't his opinion based on the culture of the time.
@@jerrylanglois7892 Because Peter warned you. ...our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. But Jesus said something easy to be understood, Come unto me. This Sunday morning, at the altar call of the Baptist church, step out and come to him.
@@jerrylanglois7892Saul of Tarsus inserted his Romano-Jewish-Pharisee love of hierarchy and power and tried to establish himself as leader. My gentle loving Savior Jesus sounds nothing like that He taught goodness and compassion, Saul of Tarsus never even met Jesus. I wish these legalistic churches would compare the two men, After that, if they continue to put Saul's rules over the unconditional love of Jesus, they should call themselves something else. Because they are not Christians.
So in the old testament it was 'thus saith the LORD'... Paul said 'I' don't suffer...and although Paul is a great apostle... His words should not be put on the same level as the very Word of God... because Priscilla and Aquilla (husband and wife) taught Apollos and in the old testament the prophetess Deborah saved the Israelites. Jesus was seen by Mary Magdelene first because the apostles were hiding... The prayer meeting that was going on when Peter was miraculously set free from prison was at Mary, mother of Mark's house... These arguments are ignorant because most people making it don't believe the Lord still speaks, so all they have is the words of other men they deem authorities...leaving God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit out of the conversation which is why their carnal mind, which is enmity to God, becomes their fall back position. Jesus told Mary to go tell His disciples the Good News or Gospel of His resurrection... The woman at the well went and told the people about Jesus and they came and believed...stop believing the interpretations of the Word of God amd read it for yourself. God can use whomever He chooses... (For and example read Isaiah 45) unless you believe the traditions of men over the Word of God which make the Word of God of no effect...look at the world and see if believers of Jesus are focusing on the wrong things
God bless you beloved,I don't know you in person but God know you well, children suffering from (Leukemian). Lord minister to me in a revelation when I was praying concerning things about you, I saw blessing concerning you but the wicked spirit monitoring you and with motive to destroy your destiny are fighting you, But as I speak to you now her time is up,the motherless babies orphanage home needs your financial help to tackle the problem of leukemia for the children Suffering from it lord reveal to me and instruct you to sow a seed to motherless babies who is suffering from (Leukemia)(saviour motherless foundation) located in Nigeria before 2days with faith, as I join you in prayer My heavenly father will bless you as you sow a seed to these orphanages children today, you will testify to the glory of God after you have done it if only you believe in him, Proverb (3: 27,21: 26: 22: 9 ), Deu 28: 1 '5 Contact the MD of the orphanage Foundation on WhatsApp No +2348137411949 Or Email: (saviourfoundation96@gmail.com) send your donation to them God bless you.,,...,,..
In 1985, l was a born-again babe for 11 years. Saved in 1974. I never went to church again until 1985. I had hit rock bottom as far as my life was concerned. Thinking suicide one minute then begging God not to give up on me the next. Through the Holy Spirit guiding me, l ended up back to a Missionary Baptist Church. I ask God if He was real, could He take this hate and Skincrawling feeling l had for my father, men, and myself out of my heart. HE DID IT, OUT OF EVERY NOOK AND CRANNY! l saw colour for the first time in years. So l told Him, (OH my) since only He could have done that, l would Him six months, and if He could not change my life, l would be out the door. AS GOD IS MY WITNESS! I made a vow to Him to read His Word everyday. It's been 36 years and l still read His Word every single day. Women are NOT to assert authority over the man. Man was created first. This world has lost so much, because this world want to "have it their way." BUT GOD SAID!!!
Amen. Kinda jealous. God keeps telling me to keep working on my issues, which are physical, and they are getting better. But to be cleansed in a moment! Hallelujah!
Quite an interesting thought. Mostly when Paul gave instructions, he used “you...”. So is this more a personal opinion? Also considering that Timothy was first taught by his mother and grandmother, and Paul asked that Pheobe be accorded the same respect as he in Romans 16:1-2, did these women not teach?
The error too many of us believers make is to assume those touched by God to do his bidding on earth never had an agenda of their own and would not utter words, or do anything that wasn't of God. But we know that wasn't always the case. Many inserted their own understanding into what they were called to do/share with us.
funny how this only offends those who have no problem with women teaching/preaching the majority of Sunday schools in the American church and also teaching foreigners in the mission field. No one is getting up in arms about the woman preaching and teaching every week in the sub-saharan church plant...because they're thankful that "somebody" other than them is doing it. Secondly, ever notice how nobody wants to call out the black church in America on this? Where women pastors are the norm.... Thirdly...it's not a sin on the level of a morally restricted behavior...its an area of differentiation just like baptism, communion, eschatology and cessation/continuation...so to equate it with sin is not to understand the nature of law in the Bible.
This has come up in a Bible study at my church. Paul also told Timothy in the exact same letter that the women are to teach the younger women and the men to teach the younger men. People take this completely out of context.
God said for aged women to teach younger women to be sober, love their husbands, love their children, nowhere does it say for women to teach in church, God through Paul specifically said this is a commandment, Titus 2:3 “The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;” Titus 2:4 “That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,” Titus 2:5 “To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.” God also commands that Men love their wives as themselves. 1 Corinthians 14:37 “If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.” If you don’t know the simple meaning of things like the brass serpent that Moses made and put on a pole, best to ask Jesus for understanding and study the Bible like a workman and seek God with everything you’ve got, heart mind and soul, hoping to get the “ engrafted word” Numbers 21:7 “Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.” Numbers 21:9 “And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.” John 3:14 “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:” John 12:32 “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” 2 Corinthians 5:21 “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” Romans 14:11 “For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” John 19:37 “And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.”
"teachers of good things" Is the Bible not Good? Is salvation not good? All Christians both men and women are called to the great commission to preach the gospel in the highways and byways. Paul also recommended that men stay single and not marry and that women stay single so they can serve God better with no distractions. If you take Paul's advice extremely serious and abide by his instruction then you wouldn't have a wife to beat over the head with the Bible to tell her she's weak and unable to teach. The Bible instructs women to teach other women, children both male and female and even men. You can be a teacher without having authority over men.
I am not here to argue. The commentator said “Give me something to work with and I will listen.” Women at that time were not educated and had not been allowed to study. Paul was giving them them a tremendous opportunity here. Paul did not want Ephesian women to teach because they did not have the knowledge or experience. So some believe that Paul was not forbidding women to teach in perpetuity but until they were educated.
Conclusion: Women are restricted when it comes to teaching and authority in the church. What that specifically looks like today is up for conversation, but you can't hold the position that there are no restrictions without purposely discarding the text.
Jesus drew me to God, Paul's apparent atitudes to several category of human including the female half, repel me and many others, and have caused much suffering down the years.If that was really what God feels about us, then would He really be worthy of our worship ?. Eve made a mistake ( so did Adam by the way, and God had told him better) and women have been blamed for the sins of men ever since. But Deborah was a prophetess, and Martha (and the woman at the well) were seeking souls whom Jesus treated as having as much right to hear him and think about spiritual matters as his men followers. Martha's society, like many worldwide historically, separated women and men in church , did not give women religious instruction or leadership in either church or public positions, and placed such limits on their earning power that loss of a male relative could result in starvation. Reading the gospels, I dont believe Jesus,who was good news to the poor and came to set prisoners free, would treat women this way. I haven't yet figured out what this means for Paul's authority to teach us, especially on authority. He seems to have disagreed with some disciples who actually knew Christ personally and who were also praying ,preaching, suffering and dying for Christ. All I can do is follow Christ and trust Yahweh knows what he is doing. I have a loving husband but he is my partner not my master, and we both support each other, since neither of us is perfect. Two men agreeing or not over the passage in question, as to whether its about one issue or two is irrelevant to the gospel of Jesus.
Coming from an atheist myself who met Jesus in my dream and am fully converted to Christianity from this dream which he opens the door and I entered. The denomination where he led me to allows women to preach and teach. Got to give it to the man or woman who has the desire to fulfill such role!
I just jumped into this thread. I’m not exactly sure what you’re trying to say, but God vehemently forbids women to preach. They can teach other women, and that’s all.
@@rayburnyarborough4695 I just know that some women are better teachers than men hands down. God looks at the hearts. If you have a desire, God isn’t going to stop you. The greatest law is the Law of Believing. If a woman believes that she’s a great teacher. Who’s to stop her.
@@justintran3265 Teachers yes, preachers no. Preaching is a calling, by God. I personally don’t think many preachers are called these days. The Bible strictly forbids women from preaching in the church. These guys here throw around many big words, but say nothing. One of the greatest preachers ever had a second or third grade education. God gave him the words to preach. Have you ever been in a service where the preacher doesn’t get to preach. Let me repeat, doesn’t even get to preach. The Holy Spirit comes in, people get blessed and start testifying, and God himself gives the message. Those are the best services I’ve ever been in. Of course they’re pretty much non existent today. This was in a Nazarene Church. Nothing weird or out of place. We heard authentic Holiness preaching. I’m 71 years old and was born again in that church in 1984. If you’re interested, there’s a video titled ‘Women in the Pulpit’. The message is crystal clear about the subject. The Bible states that the woman is the weaker vessel and indeed took of the apple. If you would like to continue this conversation, I would be open to it. May I ask how old you are and how long you have known Jesus? Coming out of atheism, you are the type of person that God can use in a powerful way! Before making comments on sites like this,please, please do your own due diligence. God will give us the knowledge and wisdom to know the truth about everything. He has blessed me tremendously with much wisdom. I would recommend that you sincerely pray to see if God would want you to continue this conversation. Satan will be there every second of every day for the rest of our lives. Have you ever heard the expression, “if we’re not serving God, Satan will not mess with us, because he has us right where he wants us?” The instant we accept Christ, he will be right there to try and trip us up. Believe me brother, I speak from experience! One last thing, I took myself out of church intentionally, several years ago. I attended very faithfully for many years. I was super active, played in praise bands, taught Sunday School, helped work on the church and was always involved. More of that later if you’d like. Blessings to you!🙏
Is the Word of God authoritative? Or do we get to reject parts? Here''s another way to approach it - The new testament defines what a pastor is, and what a pastor isn't. A "positive" and "negative" definition. Can't honestly limit study to one verse
@@xanderLudahl The word of God is Authoritative. We can’t simply give an opinion because we fill like it. But what we can do, is to study difficult verses in light of the clear, meaning to go into scripture and see what similar phrases mean. For example Ezekiel 28:14 talks about a “thorn” and you might have difficulty understanding what a thorn means. But then you go to 2nd Corinthians 12:7 and it clearly states that “thorns” are people.
Meant what he said and said what he meant. You're saying this based on your understanding of English or Greek. You're saying this by also taking into account Prisoclka taught Apollo, he personally worked with and comissioned Phoebe the Deacon to play a role in the Great Commission. You're saying this by taking into account what he meant when he said that women will be saved by childbirth? You're saying this by taking into account Lydya and Junia were his co-workers doing similar work as him? Check out NT Wright on the subject (TH-cam)
You really have to listen to them--they don't provide the punchy and explicit "yes, Paul forbids women to teach in church" that we're all waiting for. But man, they structured the conversation well. Love it.
@@rrickarr, Paul of Tarsus is saying Peter the fisherman says something about Jesus' teaching and a woman speaks the Old Testament Scripture to prove that it is Jesus speaking with power beyond, yet from, the Torah. Sort of like how Jesus states fulfillment or Jesus states beyond action is thought is the same sin to Yahweh. The Jewish woman is from memory quoting the Old Testament to state how Jesus is using the Scriptures to clarify and extend the power of God in our lives and thus revealing Peter is right to state what he is stating. Paul of Tarsus is saying that he is a rabbi and doesn't need a woman to clarify things for the crowd or congregation as that would be an insult to him. Paul can give Christian doctrine and prove the point by using Old Testament Scripture whenever he wants. Its' all already in his head to prove his own point or sermon as correct. We are not to sit there and figure out how to tell women they have no power or value in the church. The Pentateuch gives more written rights to women than all other documents prior to 1930 A.D. excluding the Pentateuch. This honoring of women through written rights was only surpassed because Jewish women in Christian lands felt free enough to make more changes for women. Proverbs 31 reveals women have power to do good and act in our world. So could women support the ignorant Peter the fisherman? You better believe it cause they did. Can women ask questions and learn and give the Gospel of Good News and train up new believers in "THE WAY" that they should go? You better believe it cause they did. But a few rules needed to be laid down. Men in authority could tell women to stop interrupting sermons so that preaching can be accomplished and the women should refrain from interrupting the sermons and merely ask questions after the sermon to their husbands first and then other men, like the pastor if they still have questions. In like manner, leaders and preachers in the church had authority to stop women from interrupting them with quotes from Old Testament Scriptures as a rabbi doesn't need their idiotic speeches bothering them cause if people like Paul of Tarsus wanted to quote Old Testament Scripture he'd do it, but Peter the fisherman likely had people questioning him and didn't mind the women quoting Old Testament Scriptures so that the crowds would know Peter was right. Peter still had authority over the woman helping him. Paul of Tarsus wanted people who were women to be silent as he was a rabbi and certainly did not need their help. Did you ever see that movie, "End of the Spear" where women went to South America after their husbands were speared like dogs by the natives? Those women would be like Deborah over Israel to any converts they gained in Christianity. Those women would be like husbands over their family to their small Christian church. Yahweh would be proud of those women preaching and teaching with authority. Let's be very clear about this.
You gotta look at culture and what was going on in that day… scripture says, in Christ, there is neither male nor female…. scripture also say, I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh, your sons and daughters shall prophesies…Deborah was a judge and prophet, Miriam as a leader of the nation, along with Moses and Aaron. 2 Kings 22, King Josiah finds the long-lost Book of the Law. Knowing the kingdom was in need of revival, he gathered some of the most trusted prophets…Huldah the prophetess had a leading role in the restoration. There are even NT women, where teachers and prophets. Phoebe held the title of “deacon” (Romans 16:1), Priscilla, was a teacher (Acts 18:26) People study your Bible 🤔 Many churches have women working in the church…singing, ushering, etc🤔
My worry is in cases where men have deliberately ignored church services and leadership roles in Church. Be it that the one who is available is Very controversial... But a woman is ready , qualified, knowledeable with all the Biblical concepts, and very passionate and zealous about Naturing the People of God, what to do ? Should the gospel stop, just coz only women are available ???
Growing up I had some great Sunday school teachers and teachers at school who were female. When Jesus rose from the tomb who did he tell to go spread the word he rose . The Bible says a female should be submissive. Does anyone really know a female who is truly submissive? Everyone I know is very quick to give their opinions and say how things should be done and I don't see anything wrong with that. The choir director at our church happens to be female and if it wasn't for her we wouldn't hear some great gospel hymns on Sunday morning. Times have changed and people don't have problems with that. I don't have any problems with it. When the church has dinner it's the ladies who make the meals. If it wasn't for the ladies most churches would have a very hard time.
@@felixtorres6826 I believe if it wasn't for females most churches wouldn't get much done. The choir director was female and what do most churches like to do? Eat, fill that plate up and overflow it. The women made that dinner.
The context of the verse is (V.11) "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission." That is rarely highlighted when discussing this passage. Also, Paul said, "I (Paul) do not allow. There is no teaching that God does not allow.
1 Timothy 2:8-15 KJV [8] I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. [9] In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; [10] but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. [11] Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. [12] But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. [13] For Adam was first formed, then Eve. [14] And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. [15] Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. Titus 1:5-16 KJV [5] For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: [6] if any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. [7] For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; [8] but a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; [9] holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. [10] For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: [11] whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. [12] One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. [13] This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; [14] not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. [15] Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. [16] They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. 1 Timothy 3:1-16 KJV [1] This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. [2] A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; [3] not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; [4] one that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; [5] (for if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) [6] Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. [7] Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. [8] Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; [9] holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. [10] And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. [11] Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. [12] Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. [13] For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. [14] These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: [15] But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. [16] And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. I mean God is quite clear.
Good points. In fact Jesus includes women in His ministry. Paul mentions women prophesying. We have to remember we are reading a translation from another language and culture. What were the cultural and religious practices of these former worshipers of Artemis at Ephesus? The passage often referring to silence or not talking may also be translated 'peaceable' referring to a standard of behavior. Speaking of behavior this can also be taken in tandem with how he addresses men just above this passage calling for them not to quarrel or be angry....
Paul wrote “I” do not permit a woman to teach, not “God” does not permit a woman to teach/lead. “I” vs “God” -doesn’t that make a big difference and indicate it can be linked to culture and time?
This is an interesting perspective considering that Paul always differentiates when he is giving his opinion from when he is speaking as an oracle of God (1 Cor 7:10-12). I believe this is one of such instances where he is making a transcultural statement from a personal opinion.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: God's word doesn't change to suit societies whims but is eternal and changes not!
Is there a chance that Paul was talking about married couples in the church? I am searching for someone to explain why it's translated man and woman, when it could be translated wife and husband (same words in Greek) - especially since he then goes on to talk about Adam and Eve.
Yes. And even if he intended to extend it beyond married couples, he has moved from instructions to men and women in the plural, ie when gathered, to relationships between a woman (singular) and a man (singular); it seems to me that the text is indicating that it is best for a woman not to mentor a man in a one-to-one situation. The situation in a gathering is different, because there is public accountability both in terms of content and conduct.
They are letting the passage answer the question. They are so respectful to other views while disagreeing. It reminds me of Paul calling those in Areopagus "very religious people."
They gave a non answer... One of the main tenants of bible interpretation is that is there seems to be a contradiction, you have to did deeper because there are no contradiction in the bible. It's very clear that the bible seems to contradict itself on this topic, as we see woman being used by God to Lead and even prophecy through the bible. So how do we level that? Take a look at the context of 1 Tim 2:12-15 -- He is speaking to the church church of Ephesus, which is in the city of the Artemis Cult... the same Greek cult that taught woman was created first and therefore would have rule over man. This is why Paul says what he says... Don't allow women to teach nor USURP Authority... then he goes on to re-explain the order of creation. We always have to ask ourselves, why is something being written! Paul was writing to address a specific issue in the church. Notice too that Paul never said he was against women in authority in the church, he was against women who USURP authority - as if by force. This is pretty clear and cannot be looked over. Women in that region had grown up learning that they were above men because of false teaching, and this was creeping in to the church and causing a disturbance. Women were still dressing as if they belonged to Artemis, they were teaching the Artemis doctrines and they were trying to usurp authority. Paul wrote the letter as an authority figure to address this so that Timothy would have the authoritative backing to correct this in his church. This is similar to the correction of woman in the church at Corinth, which was home to the temple of another pagan goddess - Paul Was addressing disorder in church services regarding Spiritual things - Communion, gifts, tongues, prophecy etc, and also addressed the woman who were speaking out of line and disturbing the service with questions and false teachings. 2000 years later we can take principles from this and apply it if we have similar things happening, but this is not a scripture that is plainly interpreted because of the fact there are other bible examples that seem to go against it. Always use EXEGESIS first, which is letting the bible tell you what it says, but if there are things that don't line up, you need to ask questions and find out why something was written - context, culture, authors intent. I hope this helps someone out there!
I always find this debate interesting because I've not been able to find one single bible verse that mentions that Jesus, Himself, ever said women could not preach, be leaders, teach, prophesy, etc. In fact, when Jesus arose from the dead he first appeared to women, not His disciples. Paul wrote a letter to Timothy at Ephesus regarding women not preaching due to what was going on in that culture at the time.But even in Paul's time, there were women preachers: Priscilla, Phoebe, Junia (I'm sure some of you will argue that they were teachers and not pastors, but Paul's letters doesn't state "teachers"). It's interesting that only Paul mentions about women not preaching and not any of Jesus' other Disciples who authored books of the N.T. Personally, I do not believe I should preach over men. But this debate doesn't help anyone. And it's not a matter of salvation. We can all pick out scriptures that support our claims, but I think you have to read scriptures in context of the entire chapter and book the scripture came from. You also have to look at the audience of the time, the culture, and what was going on in the early churches. I will leave with this: Acts 2:17-18 "In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy," Paul says.
I didn't mention Deborah because she was O.T. and not during Paul's ministry. I only mentioned women during his ministry that he specifically mentioned himself in his N.T. Letters. I think Christians cause more division between themselves on matters that are not important to an individual's salvation. The rest of a non-believing world watches us Christians debate, argue, and divisive ness. There are verses in scripture that warn Christians about this too. Personally, I would not attend a church pastored by a woman unless God led me to. So far, He hasn't. But I don't knock other people for doing it. God can use anyone to His glory and purposes according to His will. Who am I to question that? There's a lot of men preachers out there that are wolves in sheep's clothing. There are male preachers out there that abuse their power in the church too. So there is that!
This argument they use is hard to follow for other texts. For example, how a believer should cover his/her head has an eternal argument in 1Co just as much as against women pastors. And one has been culturally forgotten, when the other people are still following.
I would suggest that the *principle* in 1 Corinthians is what is eternal. Paul masterfully shows us how to take an eternal principle (the same principle that he used in the discussion in 1 Timothy 2) and apply it to a cultural condition.
There is no argument.. women should cover their heads... the Marxist feminist movements Infiltrated the church in the 1960s. During the feminist movement "submission" to husband was seen as "controlling and misogynist" instead of seen as the holy purposeful order of creation. Of Christ's faithful SUBMISSION to the Loving AUTHORITY of Father God. As well as, representative of women being Christ's bride. Men and women ought to outwardly show this same divine order and union of love with a man not covering his head as the bridegroom (christ) and women wearing a covering as the bride (the church). Paul goes into 15 verses about this..he was CLEAR. He gave the sound theological reasoning as to WHY it MUST be done. It was all deeply accepted as theological and understood as a COMMAND for almost a millenia and accepted across ALL denominations until JUST 60 years ago (again during the anti-god, sexual liberation, Marxist feminist movement). But, men abused their authority and women rebelled. It's that simple. That's sin for you. Now is the time to address this as we now are seeing another marxist , anti God, culteral revolution taking over our country and AGAIN making its way into the church! This video isn't about headcoverings, so it's not covered here in this video. They should make one for sure!!
Even as a new believer (and a believer in equal rights), I've never understood the fight to fill the same roles as men just to prove equal value. GOD made me of equal VALUE, whether some people believe it or not. Male and female He created THEM in His image. God knows there is a dearth of strong females in the church able to teach and affirm women of their uniqueness rather than fighting to fulfill mens roles (which we sometimes have to do when men won't step up). To pastor means to have authority which means to have the power to direct and discipline. It makes no sense to put the head of MY home and all the other men in the church under the headship of ANOTHER woman. I'm also a liberal in my social beliefs because i always think "what would Jesus do". The world and positioning does not give me WORTH, but the God who made me little less than the Angels does....all this "does scripture really mean what it says, in the new testament is crazy to me.
So do you wear face covering at church? People have genuine questions about how to apply the Word of God in today's world. They're not trying to bend it, just trying to understand it.
@@Rose-zh5xg You should what? Wear head coverings?? I'm convinced that when it's all said and done, it won't be about the strict or relative interpretation of the Word of God as there are things that are difficult to understand in our limited capacity (which is why he gave us the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truths). What will stand the test of time is whether we loved God and others with the love of Christ... vs whether we were just the clanging symbols while speaking in tongues of angels, having the gift of prophesy, fathom all knowledge, have incredible faith... none of that will matter if we Christians do not approach this world from the centeredness of the love of Christ. Sorry, I digressed from the topic at hand :). Just can't stand supposed men of God putting down servants like Beth Moore in incredibly ungodly speech without any remorse. Most of these supposed leaders of Christian faith didn't speak a darn thing against Trump and his team's deeds of hellish pride and deceptions leading to hatred and divisions. Beth Moore was the only leader (woman at that) to speak against Christians following blindly into the dangerous sentiment that Trump was saving the world. Where were all the leaders/men??? Sorry for the rant.
Paul was engaged in building up the early church among the gentiles and that involved contending for the faith once delivered to the saints. His letters to Timothy provided instruction on how best to continue that work. Right from the day of Pentecost, Christian saints continued steadfastly in the apostle’s doctrine. We should do the same. Men as well as women must be disciplined in rightly handling the word of truth in order to avoid deception and error, reminding ourselves that teachers are held to a higher standard and we must all give an account.
You gotta look at culture and what was going on in that day… scripture says, in Christ, there is neither male nor female…. scripture also say, I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh, your sons and daughters shall prophesies…Deborah was a judge and prophet, Miriam as a leader of the nation, along with Moses and Aaron. 2 Kings 22, King Josiah finds the long-lost Book of the Law. Knowing the kingdom was in need of revival, he gathered some of the most trusted prophets…Huldah the prophetess had a leading role in the restoration. There are even NT women, where teachers and prophets. Phoebe held the title of “deacon” (Romans 16:1), Priscilla, was a teacher (Acts 18:26) People study your Bible 🤔 Many churches have women working in the church…singing, ushering, etc🤔
Imperial Ignorance!!! This is so common today. But hey, they did say that Paul's argument can not be avoided by any justifications today's guys are making if I heard them correctly. I just think they are trying to be careful not to be too offensive!! But this is not good. We have to be offensive to the culture if it means the truth. We were taught by them things we were unaware of and now things are getting muddy!
God's teachers are only human. But God inspired the Scripture, and he inspired it to be understood. Basically, there are quite a few examples of women being deceived in the history of the world, and in Christian contexts. This has led to unnatural misfortune of those involved. Adam was to rule over Eve. The husband over the wife, and in the church, the elders teach the entire church, and it is passed on most normally to women and children by ladies. But it is all with understanding that there remain such roles in church and also in family. Anyone can be a fool. We are all commanded to seek peace and wisdom. But God set up roles in the church and in family. Let us do our best to follow the Holy Spirit, the written word (Bible), and such roles that lead us to peace in our society today, as we await His return.
This is actually a very easy issue. Nobody should be in a teaching/leading position unless called to do so. It doesn't matter who you are - if you are there because of your own desires instead of God's calling, you shouldn't be there. And if God is calling you to that position, I'm not going to stand in the way of God. If women aren't supposed to be in those positions, they won't be called.
You gotta look at culture and what was going on in that day… scripture says, in Christ, there is neither male nor female…. scripture also say, I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh, your sons and daughters shall prophesies…Deborah was a judge and prophet, Miriam as a leader of the nation, along with Moses and Aaron. 2 Kings 22, King Josiah finds the long-lost Book of the Law. Knowing the kingdom was in need of revival, he gathered some of the most trusted prophets…Huldah the prophetess had a leading role in the restoration. There are even NT women, where teachers and prophets. Phoebe held the title of “deacon” (Romans 16:1), Priscilla, was a teacher (Acts 18:26) People study your Bible 🤔 Many churches have women working in the church…singing, ushering, etc🤔
He meant EXACTLY and literally what the words say. Theists should not try to interpret some parts of the bible they don't like ( the parts that are immoral, sexist or uncomfortable )
It really angers me when people take the most clear and plain scriptures and say: “What did the author “really” mean when he said these things?” It’s just so ridiculous, it’s not even funny.
To all those who say, "What God said cannot be questioned." I cannot find where our conversation went, so I am replying right here. PAUL was responding to specific problems in each church. Why he said that to that particular church is not known. But CHRIST, who is the Son of God, the one God reveals Himself to us through, Jesus Christ Himself, sent woman to preach the Gospel. He sent the woman at the well back to tell the entire story of who He was and what He had done for her. Because of her the entire city was saved. HE sent the women at the tomb to go tell the disciples that He had risen from the dead! He told Mary to tell others that Christ was on His way. God told Elizabeth the entire plan and these two women believed God's word and THEY were the ones who told the world. The WOMAN understood that Christ was going to be crucified while the MEN were posturing for which one was more important and would sit by God's right hand. MARY TAUGHT JESUS WHAT HE NEEDED TO KNOW! If you have anything else to say about that, then you need to go scold Christ and explain to HIM why He was wrong in telling these woman to go and tell. And yes, I agree. The word of God, as displayed through Christ, cannot be questioned, even by those who feel they are Holier than Thou and and think they know better than Christ did. SO TAKE IT UP WITH CHRIST! NOT ME!
@@FGFWTX You are right. The Catholic Church was SO AFRAID of Mary and other women's Faith that they made up a lie, that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute! Just like men do today if a woman succeeds at something past a man. The Catholic Church has since apologized, but the women were sent to preach by Christ and they never questioned or asked to be on the right hand of God like the men did. The women ALWAYS got it before the men did. And men are still starting stories to prove that only men were important to God. 2,000 years and they are still just vying for attention.
Am impressed with your idea...i.e,Jesus at the well did not send that woman to preach but after she mentioned of the messiah coming, Jesus said am he but still the woman did not believe.If you read in John 4 vs 29, hear what the woman said to the samaritans for yourself cos if she really believed that He was the messiah, how come she said the man who has told me? Let's study the word with the help of the Holy Spirit. And the issue of a woman being forbidden to preaching is in the church not in evangelism or in women ministry at a local church. Read 1 Corinthians 11:1-3.I think this is where Paul got the same inspiration to write to Timothy and Titus because these were running churches in different cities. Timothy was in ephesus and Titus in crete. I see no point why people can't understand on this instruction of Christ.For clarity read 1 Corinthians 11:1- 19 & 14:33-35🙏🙏🙏
Paul was talking to the women whore were not in christ yet. They were still worldly. Then he said in Galatians 3: 28. In christ Jesus there is neither male nor female. Once you are in christ Jesus god doesnt look between peoples legs, he looks at the heart! Like wise isaiah 54:5 god says i am your husband, that doesnt make all men poofters
Acts 2:17 "'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons AND daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
Has nothing to do with the issue of women forcing themselves into pastor positions in God's church. 1 Timothy 2:8-15 KJV [8] I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. [9] In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; [10] but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. [11] Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. [12] But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. [13] For Adam was first formed, then Eve. [14] And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. [15] Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. Titus 1:5-16 KJV [5] For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: [6] if any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. [7] For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; [8] but a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; [9] holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. [10] For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: [11] whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. [12] One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. [13] This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; [14] not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. [15] Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. [16] They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. 1 Timothy 3:1-16 KJV [1] This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. [2] A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; [3] not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; [4] one that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; [5] (for if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) [6] Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. [7] Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. [8] Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; [9] holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. [10] And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. [11] Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. [12] Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. [13] For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. [14] These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: [15] But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. [16] And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. I mean God is quite clear.
Where is the answer in all this dialogue? Are women allowed to preach or not? Does Paul say “Yes or no”? The direct interpretation is clearly “no” on both points. That is distressing so we look for deeper meanings behind the writing and clearly don’t find them here.
MrRea112, well, who taught Apollos about the Holy Spirit? And who was sitting at the Masters’ feet while Martha worked in the kitchen? Who was the first evangelist? How many rules of the day did Jesus break? How did He treat women? Are you aware that there were women pastors in home churches in the 1st century?
@@michaelbrickley2443 Let’s not move off at a tangent here. I was merely asking for an answer to what Paul wrote about and why and nobody seems to be able to shed any more light on this. These are two eminent scholars who I’d have expected more from.
@@michaelbrickley2443 Paul isn’t saying you should mistreat women, he isn’t saying women shouldn’t evangelize, he is saying they should not teach thus taking authority over men (going against God’s ordained structure). There is no doubt that there were women pastors in the 1st century, if there weren’t women pastors, Paul wouldn’t have had to tell them to stop teaching men.
@@michaelbrickley2443 The bible tells us in 1 Timothy that pastors/ elders oversee and rule over the church. So the question is..... Does the Bible permit a woman to oversee or rule over a man?...no. Can a woman teach other woman or children?... yes. Can a woman take the title of pastor?... no God has and will continue to use woman in might and powerful ways. But God has also ordained an order....
RIDDLE ME THIS!!! When a Woman stands up and preaches, is she sinning? What if the men don't stand up, let that town fall? How is it a sin to teach the Gospel? THIS! my people, is why the enemy is advancing on all fronts!
@@bavarcas 😂😂😂 First of sell, That's referring to Judah. Second, you didn't answer my question. Third, "Christians" like you are terrible. Peace be with you.
God cares about the means to the end. For instance, God has commanded the filling of the earth but does he approve fornication and adultery yet these two can bring about offsprings?
Please correct me if I am mistaken, but Corinth was in Greece and Timothy was also in that area. One of the 7 wonders of the ancient world was the Temple of Artemis and if you study what was going on there and read these passages in the Bible it appears that Paul was speaking against this temple worship and not against women in general.
Nope. That's totally made up, revisionist history, made for feminism by feminists. They literally made it up out of thin air. The worship of Artemis was occurring in that local, as in others, but all the claims they make about the rest is nonsense. There's no historical records to back up their claim that Paul was only preaching about these particular women at this particular time.
personally I am very torn about the whole thing. I am a christian. I believe the bible. That being said I have become very alarmed regarding this teaching by Paul, and to be brutally honest, alarmed at a few things that Paul has done. I find no fault in Paul's doctrine, how could I as it was imparted directly from the Spirit and he was not taught it by man. The problem I have is that we as a group of believers have held Paul up to be a perfect example of the doctrine he preached and a perfect example of the Lord Jesus Christ. I realize that this is a very unpopular thing to say but I believe that Paul still struggled in fully appropriating the things he preached in his own life and ministry. To be clear, I am not trying to defame Paul and as a mater of fact I can't think of anyone else who would have chosen to suffer as he did for years in order to preach the gospel and "mystery" of God to the church. Can you imagine being told by God "For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake." Acts 9:16. Back to the issue at hand. In my view two things can be at play here. 1) It was intrenched within the Jewish scriptures that women are second class citizens, the Rabis taught this for centuries. The Jews were as bad as the Muslims when it came to women, and much of the quaran and the respective jewish scriptures are identical regarding women. Paul being a good Pharisee would have been steeped in it. Do you know how hard it is to disown something that has been pounded into your head your entire life? I think that this would have been very hard to change in his attitudes. 2) to my knowledge Paul only mentions the prohibition against women in two epistles. Corinthians and Timothy. Because of this I believe that his instruction was largely situational. Both churches addressed had unique situations going on. The Church at Corinth was literally in a chaotic mess and the Church of Ephesus had problems with the local pagan church of Artemis trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. Artemis was the goddess of fertility and as such there were thousands of temple prostitutes roaming the streets and no doubt entering the church of Ephesus and trying to lead astray the people back to the old pagan ways they once lived in. neither place was an ideal situation for women in ministry. Although Paul in his explanation cites Genesis for his stance he does not elaborate why Adam sinned by partaking of the apple with Eve, there's a story to that. Personally I'm inclined to believe that is prohibition is situational because for it to be a blanket ordinance would be to go against previous Old Testament precedence. Regarding the other issues I have with Paul's actions such as, Circumcising Timothy, even though he preached against it. Taking the vow of the Nazarite (which would have included three sacrifices, one for sin) at least twice. Continuing to keep the feasts, etc I will have to continue to seek the Lord's light upon. I do know that we have to be very careful not to hold any of the apostles or ministers of old up as perfect examples. Paul had to correct Peter and Barnabas regarding their separating themselves from Gentile believers. Only the Lord Jesus Christ is to be put on that pedestal.
Paul was a grace-saved sinner just like the rest of us, and he says so in Romans 7. That he struggles with his sin mightily and realizes his salvation from his body of flesh is Jesus is of no comfort to those of us who cannot encapsulate his theology in our spiritual lives. Most argumentation of theology is centered in Paul's contested epistles, not his uncontested ones. I do not see any discomfort in Jesus' ministry regarding women, nor do I see women a step behind the men following Him. Jesus revealed Himself as Messiah to a Samaritan woman, not a man, and relied on her to spread His Name. Many examples of faithful women are revealed in the tetraeuangelion, and these should be identified before relegating this argument to being one of complimentarianism. This is an uneducated cop-out. Keep studying the scriptures and especially read the 4-Gospels as a harmonious unit like it was read 1st-2nd century.
They took an awfully long time to give a fuzzy answer. Not a direct “yes” or “no”, just a very loquacious “I haven’t been convinced by the other side”. And they both completely ignore Paul’s instructions to the church at Corinth regarding women who prophesy. Instead of telling them to shut up, as he told the women in Ephesus, Paul tells the Corinthian women to cover their heads. Does prophecy (speaking the very words of God) not also come with authority? Were the Corinthian women speaking their own words? One cannot conveniently ignore Paul’s instructions to Corinth and only use Ephesus as the basis for interpreting the passage. Either Paul contradicted himself or he didn’t.
Are you saying that there is never any situation in which someone is justified in wishing to accompany their view with their reasons for their view? The answer to your question about prophecy is no - it doesn't come with authority. The Corinthian women clearly prophesy - it is not condemned. It's good you raise this though because it gives insight into what is really being forbidden in 1 Timothy 2. It is about being or not being responsible for ultimate doctrinal and pastoral discernment. Prophecy requires neither and in the new covenant doesn't have "Thus sayeth the lord" authority.
Prophesy to teaching to preaching are different to me is like the first one us randomly and the other specific teaching or message to a group ppl or church
Well, in that case, (seeming contradiction), what of the scripture which says that there is neither Jew nor Greek, male or female, but ONE NEW MAN in Christ?
Read the book What Did Paul Really Said About Women by John T. Bristow. We have to keep in mind that the culture was different then. Paul was actually writing a letter and speaking to a specific church with a specific problem (not all the churches of that time) , plus we only hear one side of the conversation and concerns at that time
I really don’t understand why people keep saying that 1 Timothy 2 is controversial. The words are clear. Why is it so grey snd controversial? Only those who wish to go again G-d and his word say it’s controversial. Other verses in other epistles says the same thing… nothing controversy out it.
If you go back to creation then eve being necessary to complete Adam/the image of God in creation it does seem as if excluding women from the majority of meaningful contributions in Christian gatherings is at odds with that. And argument for the specific and contextual reason could be the fact that Paul gives parameters for women prophesying in Corinthians. So, what he is excluding cannot be all women to be silent and not teach Gods word for all time.
will someone please answer my question with godly wisdom... when a Godly and knowledgeable woman has to say something about the Word of God to a man who isnt really deep in faith, is that wrong ?
Please answer this question first: What EXACTLY do you mean by "has something to say about the Word of God to a man"? You are being quite vague in the way you put the question, and in your qualification as to who can answer it for you. Frankly it seems that is intentional. And that right there is ONE of several reasons why God does not permit a woman to teach a man, or have authority over him.
@@RK-db4oq well it is simple question, if you want to talk about your view as you’ve been reading the Bible too.. is that wrong? the Buble also said that there i neither male or female all one in Christ Jesus. I think the problem is the women in Corinth, and women also in their nature are behaves and speaks recklessly but God can changed that if woman chooses to the problem is it is difficult to get away from it and only few can overcome it
@@whywearehere7517 Your question is not simple--it was broad and vague--which is why I asked for clarification. And you still have not provided that clarification. As you well know, your question also had an ulterior motive (it was in fact a statement framed as a question, rather than an honest question, which is a common rhetorical device). Most men can see right through it, but because you are a woman and God built men to defer to women in most matters, most men will not call you out on it. This is another reason why woman cannot be teachers of men when it comes to the Bible and the things of God--when you teach even obviously wrong doctrine you will not be as readily challenged by other men. Men have no problem challenging other men who teach obviously wrong doctrine.
In my opinion, if 1 Timothy 2:12 is so plain to be understood, Ruth's question is plain as well. It is NOT wrong that a Godly and knowledgeable woman SHARE or even tell the Word of God, not only WITH or TO a man who is not deeply rooted in the Scriptures but also WITH a very Godly and knowledgeable man too. The problem is WHEN THE CONGREGATION COMES "TOGETHER", whether it be in Church or in any unconventional gathering of brothers and sister, where they ALL come TOGETHER in FELLOWSHIP to be TAUGHT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. Remember: The Lord Jesus Christ told us that THE HOLY SPIRIT is our SOLE TEACHER OF THE WORD. But, since The Holy Spirit works through human beings, HE DOESN'T GIVE THAT TEACHING AUTHORITY TO WOMEN. He uses MEN to minister The Word of God to the Congregation. No matter how much we can protest to this fact, The Word of God can never be broken, only our DISOBEDIENCE becomes an evident DARK LIGHT that doesn't shine to the world.
@@RK-db4oq okay I wont argue or debate with you. ofcourse I am woman and asking questions like this, is that even wrong? i think there is something wrong thatyouve been in a relationship with God reading the Word Of God sincerely and not even talking about your view and do not even shareit. but i agree men should be the leader and woman should not be above of men. whatever may be the right way of thinking i am a woman and a child of God. and i think i have rights to even say my opinion.
Beautiful and right interpretation. It forbids women from the priestly ministry (that is to rule, judge and represent Christ’s headship over the church) but not from studying and sharing the gospel. It prevents women from assuming authority over men.
@Thanks anyway - anytime we need to put down another by saying, "they don't have the capacity to do...' you didn't listen to what these brilliant speakers have said AT ALL. They can teach, preach and disciple but not over congregations. It's not that they cannot its that it's not edifying. Eve can lead as women do today but is it edifying - not when it takes away from the core role of being home builders.
To me, the passage is a double indictment: 1) women, don’t teach men and 2) men, don’t put your women in a position where they are starved for your leadership. While I align with a straight-forward interp of the passage, it is very discouraging when women are good teachers, but are in marriages or churches where the men simply won’t do that. Most fall asleep in church, spend the rest of the day watching football, are engrossed in work Monday through Friday, then are ready to play on Saturday. In teaching women, I find this to be a common frustration.
The man who would rather go to the couch potato husband's Bible study than his wife's class when she is diligently studying Scriptures all day, every day is dumb. Their different fruit will be obvious.
@@factsfirst7621 And that's what we should do, right? It should not be based on our understanding, it should be based on what the Bible teaches, both Old and New Testament.
You gotta look at culture and what was going on in that day… scripture says, in Christ, there is neither male nor female…. scripture also say, I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh, your sons and daughters shall prophesies…Deborah was a judge and prophet, Miriam as a leader of the nation, along with Moses and Aaron. 2 Kings 22, King Josiah finds the long-lost Book of the Law. Knowing the kingdom was in need of revival, he gathered some of the most trusted prophets…Huldah the prophetess had a leading role in the restoration. There are even NT women, where teachers and prophets. Phoebe held the title of “deacon” (Romans 16:1), Priscilla, was a teacher (Acts 18:26) People study your Bible 🤔 Many churches have women working in the church…singing, ushering, etc🤔
That Paul give this instruction to Timothy, based in Ephesus, could give it a very definite localised meaning. Ephesus was the seat of Diana worship. In both Timothy epistles, Paul on several occasions warns against endless genealogies. This is hugely significant. The priestesses of Diana, so I'm informed, held a gnostic and perverse view of life. Women were more spiritually enlightened than men and only they were suitable as priests to Diana. They held the view that Eve was born first - suggesting her pre-eminence - and that Adam was her son. Hence Paul stresses that Adam was first and that Eve was deceived, thus refuting the idea that women in Ephesus taught with mystical, authoritative knowledge. Try reading both epistles again with those thoughts in your mind.
A lot of people in the comments here already saying that Keller and Carson didn't answer the question. In case you didn't catch it, they both conclude that 'having authority' means taking a leadership role through preaching, that this command is not exclusive to that time/place because its linked to creation, and that the passage is plain in what it means - and that's that there is a restriction on women preaching and having authority.
Simple. I think people have a hard time listening to some of these older teachers because they answered quite literally lol
@@YoKinah Exactly, I was shocked to see so many comments claiming that they never came down on either side..
@@andyboreland Yes it seem quite clear to me. I think they are being gentle in the way they express their views too when people are used to those who stand up and shout about what they believe is right.
Excellent summary!
@@thegospelcoalition thank you :)
In other words, the scriptures mean what it says. Brilliant
I have also noticed these interesting Scriptures: Women are allowed to prophecy in the church. (1 Cor. 11). Then there's 1 Cor 14:26 - “How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation.” Does that mean everyone but not women? And then there's 2 Timothy 2:24 “And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, ...”
If you continue on in that same chapter (1 Timothy chapter 2) and look at verse 15,
since the scriptures say what they mean and mean what they say, do you think women are not saved by the same method as men? Grace through faith?
15 Notwithstanding she SHALL BE saved in CHILDBEARING, IF they CONTINUE in faith and charity and Holiness with sobriety.
So women cannot be saved without bearing children?
What about all the women who never had a child, salvation is not available to them?
And by this scripture is her salvation contingent upon her walking out an entirely flawless life by continuing in "charity and Holiness with sobriety?"
So does that mean she has to prove her worthiness and earn salvation by living this flawless life?
Are you saying that Ephesians 2:8 and 9 saved by grace through faith does not apply to women, only available to men?
If so is there another verse of scripture that agrees with your findings? In the mouths of two or more witnesses let everything be established. (Deuteronomy 19:15)
Ephesians 2:8 and 9
8 for by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 not of works, lest any man should boast.
Please enlighten, obviously i am not reading the scriptures correctly.
@@media333 thank you for bringing up this point.
In John 20:17 Jesus sent Mary Magdalene to go and tell the brethren the most important message ever known to mankind.
Imagine that, He trusted a woman to take this message.
Thank God He didn't send her to this church where she would not be allowed to bring this message for fear of her trying to usurp authority.
@@rgnold2517 I'm not a Bible scholar or anything but all's I know is that Paul wrote to Timothy and told him what the qualifications to be a pastor are, you can look them up
@@sidripster506 that's why 2 Peter 1:20 reads:
knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
You can't take a single scripture and make it a doctrine, it must agree with the whole of scripture. Lot's of people are teaching scripture that cannot correlate it with the whole word of God.
By the way, women are saved the same way men are: by grace through faith.
Thank you for what I already believed. So men of God, please fulfill our role as men, so our wives don’t have to compensate for where we lack!
Amen!
Hank Gonzales God Bless you from the bottom of my heart!
Amen and amen! Thank you Hank for putting the men in their rightful position.
Amen🙌🙌🙌🙌🇿🇦
The Bible is very clear on the point being discussed. If you have an issue you should take it to God. Stop all this nonsense. Try letting the Bible speak.
Honestly I’m a woman, mother and a wife to a man who is not in the same path as me living and breathe life through the word and gospel of Jesus Christ. My husband for example does not lead our family according to what the Lord ordained him to do as the head of the family. I, myself in the other hand have no choice because of my love for Christ and what he has done for a sinner like me, I study the gospel and teach my children his word and sometimes teach my husband. I know how blessed I am in my relationship with the Lord and I believe we are all his children ordained to be his ambassadors in this foreign world. If I have to stay back and listen and obey my husband as the one with authority according to this verse than my life and our family could have been totally occupied by Satan.
You have free will, and that is the man YOU chose.
@Bill Smith Amen brother. Exactly right and thanks for your words of encouragement. Bless you 🙏
You are a blessing! I thank God for you because of the children. Keep up the good work.
@@LesA.R.6568 don’t take free will too personal. God direct my path from the very beginning. God sees my future before I even get there because he knows my heart. I thank God every day for blessing me with this man. God can really turn the impossible and make it possible and he really sees the light of Jesus through my daily walk with our God.
@@LesA.R.6568 I can see why this doctrine appeals to you. SMH!
This verse and a few more has opened my eyes to realize the depravity of our humanity. Because even as scripture-believing Christians, once or when a verse does not appeal to or with our sentiments and emotions, we have the tendency to create a narrative that interprets it to suit our sentiments and emotions. It is indeed a bruise in the ego and emotions to say "woman cannot teach", but it is what it is, GOD can NOT be questioned about HIS order of and in creation, in heaven or here on earth, but our emotions and sentiments as humans have a way of leading us into a path of rebellion, when we don't like what we are hearing. We turn into Social Justice warriors and philosophers in the face of a very clear, precise and unambiguous scriptural order. May GOD give us a heart of humility and obedience. Amen.
Amen
Scripture never limits women though.
To be fair, it's not as if everyone who questions this is not wanting to follow God or being rebellious. We are reasonably trying to make sure we are understanding scripture correctly.
If this passage does, indeed, mean that for all of time, God does not permit women to ever be pastors, then I ans many others would surely obey that gladly, because God is God, and His authority is absolute.
But you can't act as if anyone trying to ensure we are understanding this scripture properly is just doing so out of rebellion or an unwillingness to follow a command they dont like. I personally do have a heart of humility and obedience towards God. I'm just trying to make sure I'm not obeying something man has misunderstood, that God didn't actually intend. Which I think is pretty wise and reasonable. I'm sure many other people who question the meaning of this passage feel similarly.
@@j-mshistorycorner6932 100%. If we followed Paul's writings then Paul and Jesus would not be teachers.
Are you saying Paul of Tarsus is God I think not. He was a man who spoke many true things for sure but he was not messiah and messiah did not teach women they must be silent and could not teach and that salvation was though pumping out kids. I personally know salvation doesn't come through childbirth because I have given birth five times. Salvation comes through faith in what messiah did and showed us and messiah never taught us that nor did Philip the evangelist who had actually been taught over time by messiah, had four virgin prophetic daughters that were not silent. Paul would not even have been born if Esther and Deborah had not spoken and taught. And neither did so with their husbands permission either. So I think either this part of scripture was added to or removed from or Paul was having a bad day and just couldn't handle it. I forgive whoever did it in any case but I will not abide by this curse. I will braid my hair if it gets in my way, I will love and teach and speak when called upon to do so, and I possibly won't have anymore human baby's even though I can safely do so for the next two years if my boyfriend and I get married under Gods will.
God's word must not be changed to be politically correct.
I'm a woman and know what work God has blessed me with and that is a helper for my husband and build our foundation .
Pastors and ministers must stop appeasing hurt feelings.
Also look at some of the major roles women have in the bible. Including prophecy and at times key strategic advisors. Let it not be forgotten the divine participation in bringing the Savior to this world. etc etc.
@@ronpd1982Yes, but we do it with other women or children, and always under the authority of the male leaders.
Woman, and I am one, are firstly to cover their heads, and long hair is clearly not the only cover. Once you do that, it has a profound effect on you, it constantly reminds you that you are under the male authority.
Amen Sister in Christ! Head covering is a "symbol" of authority and that we do submit to the creation order. Knowing (finally) our BEAUTIFUL role and having crystal clear instruction on EXACTLY what we teach younger women (the text spells it out...that which is good...to love and keep the home ect.) is such a relief! Can you imagine if our women's groups focused on the good deeds we can do in the Church together instead of trying to be like the men!!! Not to mention at home if men were being trained to be the head of the home (a micro sphere like the Church) in discipleship and leading the family based on the knowledge of God's word. Of course women know God's word and that's why we submit to our role in perfect unity under God with our men!
Simply let women be equal to men in all offices of the church. Judge the outcome. There are too many biblical that are silly, and irrelevant to where people are today in terms of culture. Secular powers recognized that women have leadership gifts too. It is about time religion caught up.
The way that I have heard this theme of men and women is equal in the eyes of God, equally loved and equally important to the Kingdom but they have different roles.
@@8784-l3b God used Deborah because he couldn't find a man to do the job at that time. There were no women priests. They were to be the sons of Aaron. Not daughters of Aaron.
@@tessmoore3762
Did you mention that God couldn't find a man to do the job at that time?
true equal in GODS EYE but with gender specific roles
God loves men.
Honestly - two white males. What a narrow section of the church and therefore of godly understandaing of Christ's church and His plans for it. Many societies restrict women ( see Afghanistan today) but not God, who down the years has constantly challenged our mental boundaries of who can do what. Jesus first evangelists were the women at the tomb post resurrection. It was the men's sin that they did not believe them and were dismissive of a women's testimony. Same of women preachers today, many with years of study and wisdom/ experience. There were old and new testament female prophets and judges. Locally to me is a woman whose preaching in church brings folks to Christ, and one whose witness in Costa bears much fruit. If men did the Sunday School I bet the retention rate would be higher because men still hold their own kinds' witness higher than that of a woman. Its sin but its a fact and until God humbles us before him it will remain so.
Timothy Keller’s Comment, ‘Paul is definitely forbidding something...’ helps us focus on the text. But another question or comment must be raised: Paul is forbidding someone. Both Keller and Carson will know that the Greek words used by Paul can accurately be translated ‘woman-man’ or ‘wife-husband’. For example, when Paul says to the Ephesians, ‘wives submit yourselves to your husbands... Husbands love your wives,’ he uses the same words. In that passage, context determines the translation ‘wife-husband’ because we do not regard all women needing to submit to all men, or all men loving all women as Christ loved the church. Those things are reserved for the intimacy and structure of the family. In their discussion Keller and Carson correctly refer to the creation context of Paul's remarks. Does creation teach us that all men have authority over all women and that all women must submit to all men? Or is the creation principle that when a man and a woman become one flesh, as did Adam and Eve, there cannot be two heads? Do Keller and Carson expect their wives to submit to all men in their church? How would that chaos ever be workable, with every wife needing to submit to and follow the instructions of a hundred or a thousand men? I imagine these two men would see submission and authority as being within their family units between themselves and their wives. That is what God created when he created one man to be united to one woman, thus completing each other. Perhaps this gives at least a hint that Paul’s words to Timothy might better have been translated as husband and wife, just as they are in over fifty places in the New Testament. It is worth noting that in 1 Timothy 2, Paul also speaks of women being saved by bearing children. It is a mysterious comment, nevertheless, our Christian worldview would suggest that pregnancy and birth are rightly connected to the family and marriage. The above comments do not argue a case other than for serious contextual and linguistic work on a text. When we approach scripture to support a predetermined view, it is too easy to leave off the due diligence required by the text. The other difficult passage in 1 Corinthians 14 about women being silent, on analysis, can only apply to married women with believing husbands. ‘They must be in submission…’ to whom? All males? Or their married ‘head’? We know from a previous chapter they can pray and prophecy, but if they have questions, says Paul, ‘they should ask their own husbands at home.’ Would Keller or Carson feel that a woman asking them a question to help her understand what they as the speaker said, is a rebellion against the created order? Or do the words ‘submission’ and ‘own husband’ indicate that something else is at issue in Corinth? Amidst all the discussion, the one core question is this: What does the Gospel of redemption mean for women? Is theirs a limited atonement, or complete atonement; a return to who they were at the beginning or are they to be ongoing custodians of the sin of Eve? What of Eve’s actions, along with Adam’s actions, did Christ take upon himself on the cross? When that is resolved, our interpretation will be in agreement with the Gospel.
Thank you for articulating this so well. It really does seem sometimes like the idea of "context" and "intentional study of the scripture and its history" are vital - until it comes to this specific verse. Then all of a sudden we become heretics for dissecting the scripture. It seems like people are encouraged to study the bible further, except when it comes to this verse. If we try to ask questions and look deeper, then we have a faith issue. Do we enforce 1 Timothy 3:4 with as much zeal? Are there panels discussing what it means for a male pastor to "keep his children under control with all dignity"? Or do we just giggle and roll our eyes at the "Pastor's kid who's going through a phase"? It's not my intention to be a contrarian - but as a woman who was raised in church and loves Jesus, it's been frustrating to see how this topic has been handled. And the conversations rarely ever address how God then intends to use women for His glory and kingdom, if it really isn't in preaching. The conversation seldom ends with encouragement and strengthening in the Lord for all women. It usually just ends with "it is what it is, get over it", and women are left to stumble upon an area of service where they hopefully won't be deemed offensive.
Very good!
The context seems to be women attached to their husband - and until married their father.
My mother visited a women-led church, and she said that when they were asking for volunteers, no man stepped up, none at all.
OK, So does that excuse the act of direct disobedience to GODS word? Why was there a woman "pastor" over men in the first place? How did this "I had to do it" action work for King Saul when he decided that he would make the sacrifice because he thought it was taking the prophet to long to arrive?? He stepped out of his ordained place and GOD declared that "I have rejected him as King" because he did this....how is a woman pastoring or leading with that excuse any different???
@@bryanlatimer7653 why are men failing to lead is the better question? God if they want to be leaders get up your butt and lead. This has been a continual issue since Adam and Eve. Adam failed miserably at leading his own wife and she was deceived, yet he knew what God said and went along with it.
Curious how that is the women who WERE volunteering's fault, and not the men who WERE NOT?
Curious indeed. Does any life experience supersede the written word of God? “So-and-so sinned, so I must.”
@@bobd2643 If men don't walk in their calling who will? If we hold our peace the very rocks will cry out.
I always think it's amusing when someone says "what did they really say". Seems a very clear statement by Paul
"Did God really say" -
It is very clear what Paul says
And it is also very clear that the Bible has many instances of women 'preaching'.
Be it Old Testament, Acts, prophecy of Joel in the end times, or in Luke.
@@blackwiddowflainfrost6705preaching is not prophecy. I doubt that someone who so easily equates the two will be easily persuaded, but perhaps others reading will not fall victim to this folly you spout.
What did they really mean is a valid question sometimes. e.g. Jesus saying he is the door...cut off your arm if it causes you to sin...it all takes exegesis
They completely ignored context, the situation in Ephesus and why Paul would counter the "woman came first so worship Artemis" culture. Making this prohibition for all women, everywhere, for all time, makes Paul contradict himself when he commends Priscilla for teaching Apollos, and commends women to be modest (cover their head) when they pray and prophesy in public worship. Context, context, context.
I agree with your response and I am a woman. GOD'S way is THE WAY
@Bessie Colbert, Paul of Tarsus is saying Peter the fisherman says something about Jesus' teaching and a woman speaks the Old Testament Scripture to prove that it is Jesus speaking with power beyond, yet from, the Torah. Sort of like how Jesus states fulfillment or Jesus states beyond action is thought is the same sin to Yahweh. The Jewish woman is from memory quoting the Old Testament to state how Jesus is using the Scriptures to clarify and extend the power of God in our lives and thus revealing Peter is right to state what he is stating.
Paul of Tarsus is saying that he is a rabbi and doesn't need a woman to clarify things for the crowd or congregation as that would be an insult to him. Paul can give Christian doctrine and prove the point by using Old Testament Scripture whenever he wants. Its' all already in his head to prove his own point or sermon as correct.
We are not to sit there and figure out how to tell women they have no power or value in the church. The Pentateuch gives more written rights to women than all other documents prior to 1930 A.D. excluding the Pentateuch. This honoring of women through written rights was only surpassed because Jewish women in Christian lands felt free enough to make more changes for women.
Proverbs 31 reveals women have power to do good and act in our world. So could women support the ignorant Peter the fisherman? You better believe it cause they did. Can women ask questions and learn and give the Gospel of Good News and train up new believers in "THE WAY" that they should go? You better believe it cause they did. But a few rules needed to be laid down. Men in authority could tell women to stop interrupting sermons so that preaching can be accomplished and the women should refrain from interrupting the sermons and merely ask questions after the sermon to their husbands first and then other men, like the pastor if they still have questions. In like manner, leaders and preachers in the church had authority to stop women from interrupting them with quotes from Old Testament Scriptures as a rabbi doesn't need their idiotic speeches bothering them cause if people like Paul of Tarsus wanted to quote Old Testament Scripture he'd do it, but Peter the fisherman likely had people questioning him and didn't mind the women quoting Old Testament Scriptures so that the crowds would know Peter was right.
Peter still had authority over the woman helping him.
Paul of Tarsus wanted people who were women to be silent as he was a rabbi and certainly did not need their help.
Did you ever see that movie, "End of the Spear" where women went to South America after their husbands were speared like dogs by the natives? Those women would be like Deborah over Israel to any converts they gained in Christianity. Those women would be like husbands over their family to their small Christian church. Yahweh would be proud of those women preaching and teaching with authority. Let's be very clear about this.
we need women like you, but they are so rare, no wonder society is collapsing
@@josephde-zordi7324 society is collapsing Because women teach the bible ?? Or rather Because society is turning away from
God
Such a blessed person !! Amen.
Let’s remember that God placed St. Mary way up top …. And he came through her to redeem us - But when it came to this point he put this rule .. let’s just respect God’s rules ..
Then I would kindly ask that yiu understand your position and not comment when men are speaking.
I DIDNT RIGHT THID BUT THIS IS THE ANSWER ..... What is amazing is that this clear and simple scripture needs explanation. Mankind is so full of ourselves as we say we just don’t understand what it can mean. It means what it says and it says what it means. We are under God and His authority.
The Holy Spirit (through Paul) meant exactly what he said.
What is amazing is that this clear and simple scripture needs explanation. Mankind is so full of ourselves as we say we just don’t understand what it can mean. It means what it says and it says what it means. We are under God and His authority.
AMEN
AS LONG AS we remember that same authority said to love your wife as Christ loved the church which has been abused and thrown out the window so much for so many hundreds of years that it is no wonder women don't want to hear "obey" any more.
I DO believe in the headship of the man but that same man has a serious covenant to follow to love his wife and children too.
Dude, seriously? I think one of the many issues here is the amount of abuse over the centuries that women have suffered that has been justified by this text
@Mrstrikerace Great, but we are not talking about you obeying any man, we are talking about whether women can be priests and pastors according to the new testament
Amen, so true
Also remember, men-we need to "respect women as the weaker vessel and heirs with us of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder our prayers." If we are acting and speaking harshly or treating women with disrespect then we are not fulfilling our role properly.
Jesus called us to love, not to look down on others.
Thank you
Who is doing that?
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Smart response!
Always good to reference back to the bible more thoroughly, and consult what God's Holy Spirit teaches us, over all teachers however well meaning.
So let me see.. on recap, the More Foundational Truths.. as relevant.. start from appreciating things the way it should be for those who are His (i.e. Spiritually/Heavenly Minded Born Again ones, not earthly sensually minded ones).
Consider firstly In the beginning, the Lord God created humans -male and female in His Image! (The goodness and beauty of Dignity, Value, Heart and Thinking functions etc).
Both male and female were then told to go populate the earth and have dominion over all other living things that He had created just days earlier. (The woman was created a like kind out of the created man's Side rib, not from under his feet. So nope, no mention of leadership over her in that beginning Perfect Garden of Eden). Then, further portions of the bible across the new testament tells that In the context of a family, the husband and wife must Both train the children up.. so that Leadership of the household from that perspective is effectively a shared one! And finally, Less we all forget, the bible says the two become one flesh in marriage where they are both then Joint heirs to the inheritance of glory in Christ Jesus!
The teaching of 'headship' is only purely for reflecting Christ.. just as He is the head of the church!!
Not to be abused in terms of a power status 'authority' by lack of a true spiritual understanding of what headship actually means in instruction!
Of course as his woman/wife is to be a person submitted to Christ herself, she is not to competitively usurp or turn over her husband's roles/strengths to make it hard for him to fulfil God's calling in his life.
Anywayz of less relavance to most probably, I muse over a question I doubt any of these leaders have an answer for. that is, What of a single woman's ministry roles if by God's will, she is single, or say she remains single after the death of her husband, what then if she has strengths and God's leading to care for / pastor others, or teach the Bible?? I imagine to her, such unbalanced readings into scripture to support an all-men cast in the house of God baffling, annoying and ultimately a turnoff, sorry to say.
Jesus Gives me Everything I Need and Delivers me from Evil..Just as He Promised. I could not ask for anything more.
Don't overanalyze to fulfill self thought. Scripture states what it states.
So be it.
God Bless y'all!
When it comes to Paul's letters, they tend to be contextual. Paul didn't write general letters like the other epistles, he wrote specific letters to individual churches. I understand what you're saying about not trying to overcomplicate things, but when it comes to Paul, it is kind of complicated. People during their time had the same issue we have today, and we know this because it says it in 2 Peter 3:16
Researching the culture and trying to know why the letter was sent to begin with makes his letters a lot clearer.
God bless
@@Jesse-ig8mm it’s clear that the intent of First Timothy 2:12 is Paul’s personal preference or preference for that particular church that they’re talking about which some say is Ephesus. However, Second Timothy 2:15 does say to compare scripture with scripture “ rightly dividing the word of truth”. So what else does Paul say about women talking or having place in church. We end up in First Corinthians 14:34-36 , if you read only the first two verses you get a totally different picture than if you read all three. Verse 36 indicates that the first two verses were Paul being sarcastic. In Verse 34 and 35 he says that women Shouldn’t be allowed to speak at church and if they have any questions they should ask her husband for an answer at home. Then in verse 36 he says . “ WHAT ? “ Came not the word of God out from you or came it onto you only? “
@@Jesse-ig8mm I forgot to add that Galatians three Says that we are all God’s children once we are baptized and there is neither Greek nor Jew male or female, Just heirs to the promise.
@@Heavensoon7 Verse 36 of 1 Corinthians 14 does not indicate that verses 34 and 35 are sarcastic. Verse 36 is the sarcastic verse.
In 1 Corinthians 14:33 you see Paul chastise the Corinthians for not doing what is done in all of the other congregations. And in 1 Corinthians 14:34 Paul says women are not to speak as the law says. So in 1 Corinthians 14:36 he is chastising them by saying that the word of God did not originate with them, meaning that they should stop doing things their own way.
@@sfkapacheoutlaw5348 that’s your interpretation of the verse in English. But I am part Hebrew and that’s not the Hebrew interpretation / belief. Only with the Sanhedrin and the Pharisees was there a law against women having a say . Jesus came to dispel those trumped up laws that were not part of his original law. In fact, the Hebrew nation valued the wisdom of their elderly women to such an extent that Anna lived in the temple complex as a valued prophetess, Deborah was Instructedto go inquire of God as to what the Israelites should do. Moses‘s sister Mariam was also a prophetess, and that is what made her teasing of Moses’s wife, Zipporah such a big deal. She was supposed to be an example. In the book of Acts we see that not only the sons but also the daughters were to be given visions in the last days. See Acts 2:7 in the New Testament and Joel 2:28 in the Old Testament. Note: what’s in the New Testament can be cross referenced in the Old Testament . God did away with nothing, He does not change, He has no shadow of turning, He restates and emphasizes what he’s already told us. When Jesus came to women were his biggest followers what attracted them to him? He didn’t put them down criticize them or made them feel insignificant he realized their purpose and showed great respect to his mother, even in his death. Man’s punishment was to work because had he not been so busy with his work he would have been at his wife’s side not stomping her down from above, but protecting. Woman’s punishment had to do with childbirth, NOT Having her ability her voice taken away. So why do you think her punishment was childbirth pain? Satan always waits to strike when we are most vulnerable. He flattered her about her beauty, why would he start the conversation like that? The Jewish belief/ Tradition passed down through history is that Adam and Eve immediately Obeyed God’s command and were fruitful and multiplying. Women who are pregnant like to eat, and they are very sensitive about their looks. Satan played on both of these. Hebrews told stories ,and then went back and added the details telling the story again with more details. So when did Adam know his wife and she bore the child? The Hebrew believe is she was already pregnant when God cast them out of the garden. That is why her punishments had to do with childbearing . She was deceived, but Adam knew full well the choice he was making. Had he not been so caught up in work, he might have taken better care of his family/ wife . Therefore his punishment fit the crime. The Snake let Satan use its mouth so it now has poison in his mouth and it was flown up into the tree to tempt and flashy with its wings so it lost the wings . It picks the fruit with his legs or hands so it lost those as well. God is just.
BRAVO!!! The TRUTH will always out....
Certainly 'one in the eye' for the purveyor of unrighteousness, Margaret Mowczko.....
Let's be absolutely honest.
The question on women preachers is not something that God's Word is unclear about.
For what St. Paul declared is not unclear, its just unpopular in our present 21st Century.
What was it, that Paul declared?
Amen. That's why that passage about the eye of the needle definitely meant a camel animal and wasnt a mistranslation of a similar word for rope.
This is most likely NOT the word of the lord. Ahhhhh men.
@@jerryp6001 the eye of a needle was a small entering in Israel that the camel had to put down all of its things to enter through the eye of the needle. Along with the passage it means us as Christians have to lay down things of this world to enter the kingdom of heaven
@@christianweaver1967 oh. I've never heard that. So that's a real thing/place that existed 2000 years ago? Oh wait...its not? Or it is?
Yes it unpopular! But just remember these words are GOD! So no matter what a woman think! God words don't change!
“I’ll do what feels right to me” has obvious pitfalls. Yet we’re all created differently, including our intelligence levels. My belief is that the sincerity and depth of our love for God will cover our unintentional misunderstandings of His word. And if a particular mistake is deemed sufficient, the Spirit will guide us into truth, as long as we’re faithful in our scripture reading.
How do you misinterpret easy verses like. I do not permit women to have authority over men.
@@jamesduck926 I don’t know. Maybe you should ask Him…
The Bible says no homosexual and other lifestyles shall enter heaven. Is that hard to understand.
@@jamesduck926 I’d say you best not be one..
@OldEnoughToKnowBetter the rest of the verse said …and follow me.
Joel 2:28 “And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on ALL flesh;
Your SONS and your DAUGHTERS shall PROPHESY ,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions.
That was God himself talking
Yes we are all called to share th good news HOWEVER within a church setting (eldership and Teachers) Scripture is clear and has clear qualifications in which a female is not permitted. A female can teach females, a female can do youtube videos etc. we are called to share the gospel HOWEVER as stated previous within a church setting the parameters are set. Its not a cultural issue, its GODs words clear as day
@@gravesssss surfing with graves??
@@trulyso734 so you just flat out ignore the conversation at hand.. my last name is graves.. pretty simple concept really when things are used in context.. just like woman in certain roles
Sloppy eisegesis
But it doesn't apply to praying, announcing, testifying, reading Scripture, anything but preaching?
The issue here is not "teach" or "authority" but "woman" and "man." The Greek words, Gyne and Aner, can also be translated as "wife" and "husband." They are in Ephesians 5, and this letter was written to Timothy while ministering to the Ephesian church. The translators decided, "here it means woman and man," but in Ephesians and other passages, the same words mean "wife and husband." That is their opinion on the textual evidence. Reread it with the same translation rules applied to Eph 5, and it says, "I do not allow a wife to teach or have authority over her husband, but to remain still (not a busybody), for Adam was formed first, then Eve." The passage is a household rule for authority between husbands and wives and has nothing to do with EVERYONE's mandate to proclaim the Lord's death until He comes. The text has nothing to do with preaching. That is why it is not in opposition to Acts 2:17-18.
That's interesting. I shall further reflect upon it.
@ Philip Trank, that's what I wondered all along; the Greek words!
Sorry the text makes it very clear why. It mentions the creative order that woman was made for the man, Not man for the woman and and that women are more easily deceived.
So all the arguments about culture and the times or Greek words fall apart when he explains the reasons they aren't to teach or exercise authority over the man.
@@cryptojihadi265 Really? Where does it say all women are more easily deceived? My bible states Eve was deceived but Adam sinned knowingly.
This is an interesting argument but when considering the audience of the letter and the context before and after the passage (especially the beginning of chapter 3… and remember that chapter breaks are not inspired) it is quite clear that Paul has an office in mind, not just a gender role in marriage. This harmonizes much more easily with the other biblical requirements for the authoritative offices of the church.
A teacher who studied the Greek explained:
Women were not permitted to boss others around, which was the same for men. The Greek word ‘authentein‘ means lord over someone. The men were use to learning from scripture and each other but now the women were invited to learn! - see the previous verse - It was absolutely revolutionary what Paul was saying - so he clarifies, learn in silence, not stopping the meetings or shouting out questions. This was basic etiquette of learning which women had not been permitted to do before Jesus came and struck down that barrier.
That clears up a lot of things.
Thank you!!!
When did Jesus strike down what barrier? Thought Paul was preaching this after his resurrection
@@darelet Jesus struck down the "barrier" because if we read through the gospels we see a lot of women who are followers and active students, interacting with the teacher (Martha and Mary of Bethany, also Mary Magdalene, and many more unnamed)... These are not actions women were permitted in their synagogue. The early church also has many women named in positions that required leadership, like hosting, caring, teaching within your own family whom Paul himself commended in many of his letters. But never as the word of authority for and to the Church.
@@ongjanette As the video pointed out, women are not barred from teaching fellow women, and serving in other roles. This is about women teaching men and having authority.
The barrier does not negate this scripture, unless if you have another interpretation of what the text means. What do you understand by the scripture, if not what it says?
I believe they missed what was forbidden. It was not teaching, it was not authority, but it was the USURPING of authority. And this can be supported textually throughout the NT as the usurping of authority is forbidden regardless of sex.
Gr8! What does usurping of authority look like in The NT Church?
@@lynette4412 usurp- taking forcefully something that is not rightfully yours - don’t follow anyone. Male or Female that usurps the authority of another.
That is a very good point! I will look into this.
Exactly! I recently discovered this by digging into the Greek words of this text and what those words actually meant. So much gets lost in translation. It really helps to search through the original language to determine what a passage is really saying. Usurping authority from men is actually what is intended here.
AMEN!
Im pretty sure what he meant was. 1Timothy2:12 and I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
the last part is the truly hard part for women - to be in silence 😂
You gotta look at culture and what was going on in that day… scripture says, in Christ, there is neither male nor female…. scripture also say, I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh, your sons and daughters shall prophesies…Deborah was a judge and prophet, Miriam as a leader of the nation, along with Moses and Aaron. 2 Kings 22, King Josiah finds the long-lost Book of the Law. Knowing the kingdom was in need of revival, he gathered some of the most trusted prophets…Huldah the prophetess had a leading role in the restoration. There are even NT women, where teachers and prophets. Phoebe held the title of “deacon” (Romans 16:1), Priscilla, was a teacher (Acts 18:26) People study your Bible 🤔
Many churches have women working in the church…singing, ushering, etc🤔
I really appreciate your discussion about this topic, and certainly your many other works and contributions that have helped me personally in my faith.
With regards to this topic, I would like to suggest that the passage in 1 Tim. 2 is not necessarily transcultural, nor do I think that Paul was trying to create a stumbling block for women’s participation in worship. Certainly our faith is dependent on the work of the Holy Spirit in us (who are empty vessels ready to be filled by Him), and His gifting according to His mercy and grace. Verses in the Bible such as Joel 2:28 clearly leaves no one out, and there’s no shortage of verses and examples in the Bible, along with historical and present day accounts of God moving mightily in women, including in the role of teaching. So I can’t see Paul ostracizing women from this role as a generally applied directive, but rather a specific instruction for a particular time and context - and I believe the text supports this argument.
Many read this passage and automatically jump to the negative narrative, and assert that Paul is being misogynistic, when in fact he is actually trying to protect the women of that time from judgement. I believe that Dickson’s argument of the difference between “teaching” and “preaching” is valid and applicable. We know this when we look at other passages where Paul makes the distinction between these gifts (1 Cor. 12:28, Rom. 12:4-8, etc.), and as you read his and other letters, it is clear that this distinction was understood among 1st Century Christians. In James 3:1, James strongly cautions the brethren/believers about not seeking to become “teachers”, because there is a greater judgement for those who teach incorrectly. “Teaching” is meant for those who can read, interpret and explain the Word correctly, whereas “Preaching” is intended for witnessing and sharing the good news after one has been taught. Paul is discouraging women of that time from “teaching”, not “preaching”. (and not from prophesying, speaking in tongues, performing miracles or any other gifting/ministry either). It is clear from the passage that women were not in a position to be properly equipped to teach. You need mentorship to become a “teacher”, similar to how Paul studied under Gamaliel (Acts 22:3), but this was not available to women of that time - only to men - and he didn’t want women to use their new-found freedom to assume the role of teaching without proper training (additionally, considering the very low literacy rates of the time among men, women would be even less privileged to have an education, making matters worse). So given the opportunity, there’s no reason why women can’t teach or be Pastors. Paul uses the illustration from Genesis because God told Adam directly about the forbidden fruit in Genesis 2, prior to Eve being formed. Adam would have shared the knowledge about the forbidden fruit with Eve after she was formed. When Eve was tempted/questioned by the serpent/devil, she was unable to correctly respond/deceived, and eventually sinned, causing judgement on herself and Adam (to be clear, Adam sinned as well). Paul is basically trying to explain how important it is to have a full understanding and knowledge of the word, otherwise you will be prone to fail/sin, which the women of that time would have been in a position to do so. Paul ends the passage about women “saved through childbearing”, not in the context that this is their only purpose (as Augustine incorrectly interpreted and asserted), nor that every women who gives birth gets saved and goes to heaven, but rather imploring women of that time that, if they want to do good, then they can carry out a very important role of “teaching” (without facing judgement, and thus “saved”): which is to raise up Godly children “in faith, love and holiness with propriety”.
Wow!! This is impressive. Your "teaching" or interpretation feels to me as if truly inspired by The Holy Spirit. Very balanced. God Bless you...😊
@@lynette4412 Thank you, and blessings to you as well!….and yes, I take no credit for this, but it is the Holy Spirit’s inspiration after praying over this passage for some time.
@@sjarjoura9188 I agree with Lynette although I would add that a fathers influence on, and teaching of their own kids is also important.
@@pingupenguin2474 Yes, absolutely! I used the word "only" in reference to “childbearing”, but I can see how that can be misinterpreted, so I removed it. Thank you.
Thank you so much for this. THIS sounds like Jesus. Truly inspired and really helped me I am obsessed with tackling the tough passages of the bible especially new testament and I feel so much better finding a positive and Godly message in this one instead of the negative misogyny that it has been used for over centuries.
I dont see it as paul saying something. I see it as the Holy Spirit speaking to all believers.
Amen 🙏
Some things in scripture are so clear that they really require no explanation. This is one of them. He meant that women cannot: 1) teach (learning in silence excludes teaching); and 2) usurp authority over a man. I can't understand why this would need any further explanation, unless someone is trying to twist it to mean that women can teach.
Unfortuantely, some good meaning, believing people who are not steeped in the word, and don't know the Word of truth are confused. This is because of their ignorance of some scriptures combined with false teachings from some popular "teachers". They are being confused and decieved into believing "popular ideas and misinterpretations pressed upon them by people who want to conform to popular opinion". Most often, popular opinion is the world's view, not God's way. That's why it is SO important to ground yourself in the Word reading it yourself and prayerfully considering it, asking the Holy Spirit to reveal its truths to you.
Acts 17:11 is a good approach for everyone . They received the Word with all readiness of mind, BUT searched the scriptures DAILY to see whether these things were so!
Learning in silence - how is this possible? Did Mary learn at the feet of Rabbi Jesus and never ask for clarification of any point?
@@coffeebreaktheology2634 I wasn’t there, so I don’t know. The scripture says what it says, no matter what some might want it to say.
@@coffeebreaktheology2634 I bet she listened very carefully, something hardly anyone practices today.
And at what point are we considered to have learned?Or we are to remain in a learning mode for as long as we live?!
Exactly what he said!!
Hello Cathy and how are you doing?
If it’s true that woman are not allowed to teach I can’t wait to have a first row seat to hear Jesus judge all the men who refused to teach Sunday school and the formation of spiritual minds of children and youth was left up to the woman. 25 years of children /youth ministry and I can count the men involved on one hand.
Two things can be true at once, the scripture can be true as well as the truth that men are not stepping up or into the role God has for them. I wish they would and I know that starts with each man. You have a point!
Stop running the men away
Clarification: Paul is only saying that women are not to teach or have authority over men in the assembled church, not children (1 Tim 2:12). Women are permitted and encouraged to teach children (2 Tim 1:5) and other women (Titus 2:4). Source: ESV Study Bible.
Certainly women are allowed to teach Sunday school just not teach the men.
Read the book What Did Paul Really Said About Women by John T. Bristow. We have to keep in mind that the culture was different then. Paul was actually writing a letter and speaking to a specific church with a specific problem (not all the churches of that time) , plus we only hear one side of the conversation and concerns at that time.
I still don’t get it because there are a lot of women in ministry, leadership and teaching/preaching roles.
If you want to look into the subject further, I found Mike Winger very helpful in his series on ‘women in ministry’
They are disobedient. There are divorced men in ministry leadership, they too are disobedient. You can obay or rebel.
It says what it says
GOD has a plain we are to follow
Men love your wife
women obey your husband
Dont provoke your children
We do none of that
Thats why we are in the boat we are in
How hard is it to understand what Paul
meant
Obey your masters
My wife tells me I have the more difficult task!
He means exactly what He says. A woman cannot pastor a church not shepherd a flock. Stop trying to go around Gods word.
Most scholar don’t have no spirit meaning Holy Spirit they speak foolishness
I question the accuracy of this passage, because MEN essentially translated the Bible, and the New Testament have a lot of missed translated scriptures. If you are saying what I think you are saying then what you say is false. One the church is not a place, it’s a people. Secondly, there are women that are leaders in the Bible, in the New Testament. Next, you are telling me God can use everything else, but can’t use a woman to lead a church (in your context), then that must mean he is not God of old then. Also, most of the time “man or men” are mentioned in scripture it meant Mankind. Contextually speaking, the reasoning for Paul statement was due to the issues going on with the women in that church, it had nothing to do with women as a whole. Context is everything, and you confuse ppl when you talk something different and use the name of God!
@@RayRay32216 brother I simply say to you, don’t be a Christian then. You said that it was translated and has errors and such, meaning you don’t even know if it was written that Jesus rose from the dead. It is not pick and choose, and we have the original manuscript and copies to actually check the original words. My brother what you are saying is heretical, you are calling into account the accuracy of God and His word. And btw, when a woman was a leader in the Bible it meant the nation was under curse. You cannot be a social justice warrior and disagree with God then say you are a Christian. Brother repent. It is wrong he GOD SAID! Is that not enough ? Or do you need a higher authority than God ? You are basing your opinion off of feelings, assumptions and implications, when what I said was based off scripture. If you disagree with God in one area, you are no Christian at all. We follow our Lord and we believe our Heavenly Father. Don’t make excuses because your pastor is “ good “ and happens to be a woman. That is heretical. Might as well make your own religion while you’re at it.
@@RayRay32216 my brother if it is of a deeper meaning when He says no woman shall be permitted to preach over a man, I don’t know how I should read the rest of the Bible. Because apparently verses mean the complete opposite of what they say in generality.
@@RayRay32216 it is purely unbiblical.
I always struggle with this, particularly reconciling it with the fact that Deborah in Judges quite clearly had authority over men, an entire nation for that matter. I understand there can be an argument contrasting church with a nation.
Accept her husband and ofcourse #1 God.
I feel the same way, There was also at least one female prophet (Huldah) and very likely even more. It would have been great if they had adressed this.
You struggle because there’s more keep thinking it will come LET ME HELP A LITTLE BORN AGAIN MEAN SOMETHING MEAN SOMETHING
@@nillewenne2934
Jesus replied, “Your mistake is that you don’t know the Scriptures, and you don’t know the power of God.
Debra and Huldah are so interesting. It's very specific that Debra was a judge, but she did not address (preach to) the nation. She sat under a tree and they came to her for advice and judgments. Huldah did not address the congregation either.
I don’t understand. Deborah was a prophetess and a teacher/leader. Am I wrong?
Yes you’re right, and of course the Old Testament Scriptures override the New Testament Scriptures. Especially when they are examples of something as opposed to specific instructions - thanks for your brilliance, very sophistrycated
Read the book What Did Paul Really Said About Women by John T. Bristow. We have to keep in mind that the culture was different then. Paul was actually writing a letter and speaking to a specific church with a specific problem (not all the churches of that time) , plus we only hear one side of the conversation and concerns at that time.
She was a prophetess...It says nothing of her being a leader in her own capacity like anyone, say, Gideon. Moreover, Christ chose 12 male Apostles, that should tell you something.
And Isaiah says when a woman is in leadership it is because the country is under judgment and Deborah was the leader. She was a judge and that was God showing that Israel was under judgment and they were. They were oppressed by the canites for 20 years because they disobeyed God.
@@Me-ic3li 🤦♂️, the fact that you are so brainwashed that you literally point out that the “WORD OF GOD” blatantly contradicts itself and you STILL BELIEVE IT is mind numbing. I hope you get over your need for a god.
Does this apply to women teaching Sunday school, other women or youth group settings? If not, where does the Bible give an exemption for these situations. My point is that It is important to make sure that our interpretations are not based upon bias but a clear understanding of the word. The scripture says God will pour out His spirit upon all flesh and your sons and your daughters will prophesy which from my understanding is a forth telling of the revealed word of God. Just saying …….
Thank you for reminding people about Joel's prophecy in Joel 2:28-29 & quoted by the Apostle Peter in Acts 2:16-18. GOD is not looking at our gender, HE'S looking at our hearts. And by the way, every woman doesn't have a husband & some have husband's who don't know nor want the LORD. We have to understand that GOD doesn't think like man. Now IF men would step into the role of anointed, called by GOD leadership, then we, as women teachers, could sit back an relax a bit. Regardless of how mankind wants to translate or reconstruct the WORD of GOD, we all need to have a personal relationship with CHRIST. By the way Timothy was taught by women. GOD called Deborah to lead HIS CHOSEN people for 40yrs & she had a husband. GOD didn't call her husband and it's not said that he rebuked her or that she wasn't a good wife. Can we, men & women, just be soul winners. Let's keep one another in prayer.
Teaching Children and other Women / Young Ladies has nothing too do with teaching and having Authority over a Man. Yes it's ok to teach Young Children and teach other Women, but just as God created them first Male then the Female for the Man, to Compliment him and Vise Versa, but it's about how God Established a Order and who are We to Question The Lord's Order and His Word.
The certain conclusion is that scripture forbids women from holding Church office.
There's no examples of women Levi holding office in the Old Testament.
The 'prophetess(es)' in the Old Testament are not shown to hold any ceremonies like the Tribe of Levi do.
In the New Testament, Jesus has an all male ensemble.
Whilst if we are going to conclude that Paul forbade women from 'preaching'. Women 'preached'/'prophesied' in the times of the Old Testament. To men even.
In the New Testament, we have examples of women preaching in Acts, Luke, etc.
If we combine these two then we can say it is likely that Paul forbade women from holding authority over men, as in authority that Church office would give them.
So what does 'teach' here mean? If it's about the Bible, then the above.
Perhaps it's about things that are extra-biblical with Church or scriptural authority.
@@Sanctified_Leather 'To compliment him'. Not really. In Genesis, Adam was lonely. He was 'incomplete'. So God took pity on him and made Eve.
Now, Paul writes," God made Eve for Adam." For what purpose? A servant? Simple companionship? A friend? Nay, his wife. What does that imply? What is prevalent between a couple? Love.
I do not remember the person or the complete quote, but it went, "God made Eve from Adam's breastbone so that he may love her."
God made Eve for Adam for him to love her.
"When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more adequately." Acts 18:26. Priscilla may have been in submission to her husband Aquila, or not, we are not told; but it seems apparent that she and Aquila both 'taught' Apollos.
Proof that God can still use disobedient people, right?
@@timffoster Maybe so Tim. However I wonder about women missionaries who have humbly evangelised both men and women in underdeveloped nations who have never heard the gospel. I guess I have questions.
They did so in their home. This is not in the context of a local assembly of Christians. Women are still allowed to explain the bible to others. Just not have teaching or authority roles in the church service
They took him aside and not in church and this confirms what Apostle Paul said
But one thing we can be sure of; Apollos had inferior understanding and placed himself in submission to her teaching. He needed correction and he became very effective.
Preaching i don’t know but most Sunday school teachers are loving mothers but the preachers are men so wisdom are taught to our children by females that are the wisdom of God
Coloring books and bible stories is not exegetical preaching or teaching. Once our young men and women reach their middle teens it's safe to say they moved beyond coloring books and are now ready for solid teaching.
@@heymichaelcah, but how many are brought to the Lord at their mother’s knee, attribute their start on the Christian walk at the teaching of a loved Sunday School teacher?
You gotta look at culture and what was going on in that day… scripture says, in Christ, there is neither male nor female…. scripture also say, I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh, your sons and daughters shall prophesies…Deborah was a judge and prophet, Miriam as a leader of the nation, along with Moses and Aaron. 2 Kings 22, King Josiah finds the long-lost Book of the Law. Knowing the kingdom was in need of revival, he gathered some of the most trusted prophets…Huldah the prophetess had a leading role in the restoration. There are even NT women, where teachers and prophets. Phoebe held the title of “deacon” (Romans 16:1), Priscilla, was a teacher (Acts 18:26) People study your Bible 🤔
Many churches have women working in the church…singing, ushering, etc🤔 You will miss God, if you are worrying about who is bringing you the message. So many male preachers are messaging up😢
Some of the best preaching/ teaching I have ever heard comes from anointed women. Your position makes no sense especially when you consider the many women who obviously held leading positions in the New Testament.
I struggled with this verse and was convinced that women can teach and exercise authority over men, until God taught me that I can run the race with all my zeal and be in the wrong lane and be disqualified. So it was not easy but I surrendered to God like a child.
What leading positions in the New Testament are you referring to?
@@daves2520 It's been a while but I read that Paul said this because of temple prostitutes. Who knows?
Just because a woman can give a good message - that doesnt make it right to rebel against God's word.
@@daves2520 Lydia in the Apostles and other women who followed Jesus and witnessed the resurrection..??
Paul was simply trying to keep order within the service. Phoebe was a teacher/preacher than acted in Paul's behave to bring and instruct the Church in his latest writings. Plus Aquila and Priscilla were active in the ministry. Paul noted many women that the church were directed to support in the ministry.
@lyndadunna2777 well said ❤🙏
there are many many of us who are active in church, but are not pastors. Jesus had women following Him, but none were appointed as apostles. I do believe that women can a deaconess and a pastor, but not the pastor that is the leader of the Church.
@@richardbranche8873Hello!
The Bible doesn't even mention pastors. If someone is a pastor, I guess it means they're protestants. But many Christians are not protestants.
Ephesians 4:11 mentions pastors
She was a deaconess
Hey, Thank you guys for being
"so clear", and stating it plainly and factually, "according to scripture".
Which would actually look and sound something like this,
Paul stated,
I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man,
Why?........
Because "God said so"
Thank you again
Paul doesnt make that claim.
@@LonestarEventPro Yes he did in Gen 3:16
Did God say so?
@@conganigechiranthana8650 But that applies to married couples. A strange man does not have authority over me.
@@conganigechiranthana8650 Description vs prescription. Try again.
I struggle so hard with this teaching!! Father died when I was 2 1/2- I grew up having to do things that usually males do: Mow, paint, shovel snow, etc. Life was hard. when I became born again over 40 yrs ago and I read Paul’s admonition to Timothy: “study to show your self approved unto God, a workman that rightly divide the the world of truth.” I was young like Timothy and thought, St Paul’s words were for me too! I saw it as an “age” thing and not a “gender” issue.Studying Scripture has been my life’s passion. However, the problem is that I know more about early church history, the Bible, etc. than do most men who lead in the church. I do not have any desire to teach, lead, or do anything in church. But, the question is, how much of these restrictions are cultural in basis only? the Bible says men are not to wear their hair down to their waist, but we have some in church that do and pastor would not dare say anything to them about it. what about women who go to work outside the home? Back in Jesus day, women where supposed to have a male accompany them around town, weren’t they? Please do not think I say these things because I want to be a women pastor because I do not. I do believe that pastors should be male because they must be ready to lay their lives down for the sheep. I think men are more suitable in this regard. But, I do not see why women cannot be an elder, or do readings! Not all women work well with children and I am tired of being relegated to the the kitchen and nursery. Please pray for me - I am tired of this struggle…..
Sid Roth interviewed a man who was taken to Heaven and talked to Jesus, He gave special revelation on many scriptures including the "wives obey your husbands" scripture. Jesus explained that the Aramaic translation is correct : "wives, give honor to your husbands". This makes a huge difference, as the Lord doesn't want us controlled by anyone. Regarding Paul's writing regarding women pastors/teachers, I'm not sure because Paul also writes that women are preserved through childbearing. But many women never give birth, so that can't mean that they aren't preserved..... I agree that men are more like shepherds than women, however, I believe that women can still teach small Bible groups, become elders..... This confusion really needs to get straightened out, as there are many Christian women who are being treated like children by their husbands.
Priscilla helped teach a man.
"And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly."
I'm just going to put the Bible verses here
"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."
I do admit that in the NIV it sounds a lot like this applies to every woman but to me from the King James Version this sounds like it is a specific case with a specific couple especially when Paul says that "she will be saved in childbearing" because that cannot apply to all women according to the scriptures. I don't think this applies to all women for these reasons but if any of you do I don't blame you. God bless
@@scouthart3062 Could we not understand that as teaching and not having authority?
@@LucasDangatan-xl6os do you not hold authority when you teach?
Here's the thing... the duty of leadership in a church falls to men by God's design, *not* because men are superior to women, but as an act of *chastisement* and a process of *redemption.* Paul clearly writes that the reason behind this is that the woman was deceived in the Garden of Eden. But what never seems to be talked about is what this implies... Eve was deceived by Satan, but Adam was not? And he chose to _do nothing_ when his wife, who he was responsible for protecting, ate that which was forbidden, and went ahead and ate it himself too? That's not just sin, that's open rebellion, the same thing that caused Satan's fall. Adam's sin is *worse* than Eve's. This is why, when done properly (and many times it isn't, as churches seem to lose their purpose), men are to have a more active role in the church and specifically in the Great Commission with which we're tasked, leading people to redemption and training disciples.
There is clearly more to the context than just "teaching" because one of the seven gifts of the Spirit is teaching, and clearly that isn't only for men, God is not a respecter of persons. So the bible clearly tells us there are women meant to teach. So there is more specific context here to be discovered.
I think the problem may be rendering somewhat ambiguous greek into English. v12 can be rendered, "‘I do not allow a woman to teach or hold authority over a man" or equally well, "I don’t mean to imply that I’m now setting up women as the new authority over men in the same way that previously men held authority over women" or even more simply,
"I'm *not* saying that women should teach men"
instead of
"I'm saying that women should *not* teach men"
The position of *not* in the simple version makes all the difference and IIUC, the Greek can be translated either way. Given its setting in Ephesus, which was all about a religion where women were in control, I think that the "not saying" option makes more sense. Not to mention that it totally resolves the conflict.
You clearly do not know Greek. The verb to say or any word that could be translated to imply is nowhere in the text. This is an outright lie.
⸂διδάσκειν δὲ γυναικὶ⸃ οὐκ ἐπιτρέπω, οὐδὲ αὐθεντεῖν ἀνδρός, ἀλλ’ εἶναι ἐν ἡσυχίᾳ.
ΠΡΟΣ ΤΙΜΟΘΕΟΝ Α΄ 2:12 SBLG
Literal translation is
But to teach, a woman I do not permit nor to exercise authority man but to be in silence.
There is nothing ambiguous in the above verse. Please, we should make an effort to not manipulate scripture to fit a our ideology.
@@felixguerrero6062 I absolutely do not know greek! (except for a few mathy letters like pi). Curious about the passage I looked for greek whizes to see how it could be rendered and what alternatives might be. That is how I found the one I gave above. I know that the source I found is from a well-respected theologian (>40 years as such, name withheld to protect the innocent ) who uses a greek NT in live discussions when being asked deep questions. I have to consider that translation as a credible alternative. The "I'm not saying" part is simply colloquial contemporary English, I believe. The gist of the alternate rendering is that the placement of "not" in the translation is somewhat flexible, I understand.
@@geraldbritton8118
Thanks for your clarification Gerald, sorry for my harsh tone. I genuinely suspect that the theologian that relayed to you that information was adding undue ambiguity to this particular text.
Even the liberal protestant NT scholar Martin Dibelius translates the passage as follows in his well known commentary on 1Timothy.
"But I do not allow a women to teach nor to have authority over a man, but rather she should keep silent"
Of course the clarity of this particular text does not negate the important need to properly discern its correct implementation. God bless.
But they don't answer anything in this video?
Paul meant what he said. Don't confuse the issue nerds.
But do you know the cultural context and issues he was addressing?
The other question is why more emphasis is not put on what men should do...' praying with hands raised and not to quarrel or argue". I don't see very many men praying with their hands raised consistently.
The Holy Spirit moved Paul to write. The Word is clear and direct. What the Lord desires of every Child of God will be in perfect harmony to the teaching of the Word.
Yes, and the holy spirit moved mohammed to right the koran.
@@jerrylanglois7892 One thing that stands out to me that if you blink you'll miss it is that the translation of what Paul said is that "I" would not allow this. This makes me wonder if this wasn't his opinion based on the culture of the time.
@@gilharrison8696 Why should I care whatever paul has to say ? Why didn't jesus himself say it ?
@@jerrylanglois7892 Because Peter warned you.
...our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
But Jesus said something easy to be understood, Come unto me. This Sunday morning, at the altar call of the Baptist church, step out and come to him.
@@jerrylanglois7892Saul of Tarsus inserted his Romano-Jewish-Pharisee love of hierarchy and power and tried to establish himself as leader. My gentle loving Savior Jesus sounds nothing like that He taught goodness and compassion, Saul of Tarsus never even met Jesus. I wish these legalistic churches would compare the two men, After that, if they continue to put
Saul's rules over the unconditional love of Jesus, they should call themselves something else. Because they are not Christians.
So in the old testament it was 'thus saith the LORD'... Paul said 'I' don't suffer...and although Paul is a great apostle... His words should not be put on the same level as the very Word of God... because Priscilla and Aquilla (husband and wife) taught Apollos and in the old testament the prophetess Deborah saved the Israelites. Jesus was seen by Mary Magdelene first because the apostles were hiding... The prayer meeting that was going on when Peter was miraculously set free from prison was at Mary, mother of Mark's house... These arguments are ignorant because most people making it don't believe the Lord still speaks, so all they have is the words of other men they deem authorities...leaving God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit out of the conversation which is why their carnal mind, which is enmity to God, becomes their fall back position. Jesus told Mary to go tell His disciples the Good News or Gospel of His resurrection... The woman at the well went and told the people about Jesus and they came and believed...stop believing the interpretations of the Word of God amd read it for yourself. God can use whomever He chooses... (For and example read Isaiah 45) unless you believe the traditions of men over the Word of God which make the Word of God of no effect...look at the world and see if believers of Jesus are focusing on the wrong things
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@@pastorstevefurtic364 old scam
In 1985, l was a born-again babe for 11 years. Saved in 1974. I never went to church again until 1985. I had hit rock bottom as far as my life was concerned. Thinking suicide one minute then begging God not to give up on me the next. Through the Holy Spirit guiding me, l ended up back to a Missionary Baptist Church. I ask God if He was real, could He take this hate and Skincrawling feeling l had for my father, men, and myself out of my heart. HE DID IT, OUT OF EVERY NOOK AND CRANNY! l saw colour for the first time in years. So l told Him, (OH my) since only He could have done that, l would Him six months, and if He could not change my life, l would be out the door. AS GOD IS MY WITNESS! I made a vow to Him to read His Word everyday. It's been 36 years and l still read His Word every single day. Women are NOT to assert authority over the man. Man was created first. This world has lost so much, because this world want to "have it their way." BUT GOD SAID!!!
Sexist nonsense
Amen.
Kinda jealous. God keeps telling me to keep working on my issues, which are physical, and they are getting better.
But to be cleansed in a moment! Hallelujah!
You become a believer when your lifestyle changes. Not when you say a prayer
Actually it isn’t because msn was created first. It’s because it was Eve who was deceived.
Amen, sister in Christ!
I was disappointed they didn't discuss whether Paul was talking about his own opinions "I do not" as opposed to "You should not."
Quite an interesting thought. Mostly when Paul gave instructions, he used “you...”. So is this more a personal opinion? Also considering that Timothy was first taught by his mother and grandmother, and Paul asked that Pheobe be accorded the same respect as he in Romans 16:1-2, did these women not teach?
Paul just recited the words of Jesus so it wasn't his opinion or order, but the Lord's himself...
@@socmin030 can u cite a passage?
@@tinglegoblin3028 you mean like all of them?
@@socmin030 you're telling me all of Jesus's teachings were about not permitting women to teach 🤣🤣🤣 thanks for the laugh, troll
The error too many of us believers make is to assume those touched by God to do his bidding on earth never had an agenda of their own and would not utter words, or do anything that wasn't of God. But we know that wasn't always the case. Many inserted their own understanding into what they were called to do/share with us.
He meant exactly what he said. It’s not hard. Leave it to the church to make the scriptures harder than they have to be.
Amen
funny how this only offends those who have no problem with women teaching/preaching the majority of Sunday schools in the American church and also teaching foreigners in the mission field. No one is getting up in arms about the woman preaching and teaching every week in the sub-saharan church plant...because they're thankful that "somebody" other than them is doing it. Secondly, ever notice how nobody wants to call out the black church in America on this? Where women pastors are the norm.... Thirdly...it's not a sin on the level of a morally restricted behavior...its an area of differentiation just like baptism, communion, eschatology and cessation/continuation...so to equate it with sin is not to understand the nature of law in the Bible.
This has come up in a Bible study at my church. Paul also told Timothy in the exact same letter that the women are to teach the younger women and the men to teach the younger men. People take this completely out of context.
Thats true. There statement on women teaching men is correct. They are not permitted to have authority over men.
God said for aged women to teach younger women to be sober, love their husbands, love their children, nowhere does it say for women to teach in church, God through Paul specifically said this is a commandment,
Titus 2:3
“The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;”
Titus 2:4
“That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,”
Titus 2:5
“To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.”
God also commands that Men love their wives as themselves.
1 Corinthians 14:37
“If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.”
If you don’t know the simple meaning of things like the brass serpent that Moses made and put on a pole, best to ask Jesus for understanding and study the Bible like a workman and seek God with everything you’ve got, heart mind and soul, hoping to get the
“ engrafted word”
Numbers 21:7
“Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.”
Numbers 21:9
“And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.”
John 3:14
“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:”
John 12:32
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”
2 Corinthians 5:21
“For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”
Romans 14:11
“For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
John 19:37
“And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.”
"teachers of good things"
Is the Bible not Good? Is salvation not good? All Christians both men and women are called to the great commission to preach the gospel in the highways and byways. Paul also recommended that men stay single and not marry and that women stay single so they can serve God better with no distractions. If you take Paul's advice extremely serious and abide by his instruction then you wouldn't have a wife to beat over the head with the Bible to tell her she's weak and unable to teach.
The Bible instructs women to teach other women, children both male and female and even men. You can be a teacher without having authority over men.
@@Crush_Cake Is God's word not clear?
@blobmonster9494 Deborah was. And Hosea married a prostitute. Why is that?
I am not here to argue. The commentator said “Give me something to work with and I will listen.” Women at that time were not educated and had not been allowed to study. Paul was giving them them a tremendous opportunity here. Paul did not want Ephesian women to teach because they did not have the knowledge or experience. So some believe that Paul was not forbidding women to teach in perpetuity but until they were educated.
Conclusion: Women are restricted when it comes to teaching and authority in the church. What that specifically looks like today is up for conversation, but you can't hold the position that there are no restrictions without purposely discarding the text.
🤔 Under rated comment
Jesus drew me to God, Paul's apparent atitudes to several category of human including the female half, repel me and many others, and have caused much suffering down the years.If that was really what God feels about us, then would He really be worthy of our worship ?. Eve made a mistake ( so did Adam by the way, and God had told him better) and women have been blamed for the sins of men ever since. But Deborah was a prophetess, and Martha (and the woman at the well) were seeking souls whom Jesus treated as having as much right to hear him and think about spiritual matters as his men followers. Martha's society, like many worldwide historically, separated women and men in church , did not give women religious instruction or leadership in either church or public positions, and placed such limits on their earning power that loss of a male relative could result in starvation. Reading the gospels, I dont believe Jesus,who was good news to the poor and came to set prisoners free, would treat women this way. I haven't yet figured out what this means for Paul's authority to teach us, especially on authority. He seems to have disagreed with some disciples who actually knew Christ personally and who were also praying ,preaching, suffering and dying for Christ. All I can do is follow Christ and trust Yahweh knows what he is doing. I have a loving husband but he is my partner not my master, and we both support each other, since neither of us is perfect. Two men agreeing or not over the passage in question, as to whether its about one issue or two is irrelevant to the gospel of Jesus.
Describing the 1 Timothy passage as plain is being dishonest from both a theological and linguistic perspective is all I will say about this topic.
@@pingupenguin2474 - you probably also wouldn't believe that the Father would treat the Son that way (you know, pouring his wrath out on him).
You are mistaking Christian Standard Bible
Jesus answered them, "You are mistaken, because you don't know the Scriptures or the power of God.
Coming from an atheist myself who met Jesus in my dream and am fully converted to Christianity from this dream which he opens the door and I entered. The denomination where he led me to allows women to preach and teach. Got to give it to the man or woman who has the desire to fulfill such role!
I just jumped into this thread. I’m not exactly sure what you’re trying to say, but God vehemently forbids women to preach. They can teach other women, and that’s all.
@@rayburnyarborough4695 I just know that some women are better teachers than men hands down. God looks at the hearts. If you have a desire, God isn’t going to stop you. The greatest law is the Law of Believing. If a woman believes that she’s a great teacher. Who’s to stop her.
@@justintran3265 Teachers yes, preachers no. Preaching is a calling, by God. I personally don’t think many preachers are called these days. The Bible strictly forbids women from preaching in the church. These guys here throw around many big words, but say nothing. One of the greatest preachers ever had a second or third grade education. God gave him the words to preach.
Have you ever been in a service where the preacher doesn’t get to preach. Let me repeat, doesn’t even get to preach. The Holy Spirit comes in, people get blessed and start testifying, and God himself gives the message. Those are the best services I’ve ever been in. Of course they’re pretty much non existent today. This was in a Nazarene Church. Nothing weird or out of place. We heard authentic Holiness preaching. I’m 71 years old and was born again in that church in 1984. If you’re interested, there’s a video titled ‘Women in the Pulpit’. The message is crystal clear about the subject. The Bible states that the woman is the weaker vessel and indeed took of the apple. If you would like to continue this conversation, I would be open to it. May I ask how old you are and how long you have known Jesus? Coming out of atheism, you are the type of person that God can use in a powerful way! Before making comments on sites like this,please, please do your own due diligence. God will give us the knowledge and wisdom to know the truth about everything. He has blessed me tremendously with much wisdom. I would recommend that you sincerely pray to see if God would want you to continue this conversation. Satan will be there every second of every day for the rest of our lives. Have you ever heard the expression, “if we’re not serving God, Satan will not mess with us, because he has us right where he wants us?” The instant we accept Christ, he will be right there to try and trip us up. Believe me brother, I speak from experience!
One last thing, I took myself out of church intentionally, several years ago. I attended very faithfully for many years. I was super active, played in praise bands, taught Sunday School, helped work on the church and was always involved. More of that later if you’d like. Blessings to you!🙏
Is the Word of God authoritative? Or do we get to reject parts?
Here''s another way to approach it - The new testament defines what a pastor is, and what a pastor isn't. A "positive" and "negative" definition. Can't honestly limit study to one verse
@@xanderLudahl The word of God is Authoritative. We can’t simply give an opinion because we fill like it. But what we can do, is to study difficult verses in light of the clear, meaning to go into scripture and see what similar phrases mean. For example Ezekiel 28:14 talks about a “thorn” and you might have difficulty understanding what a thorn means. But then you go to 2nd Corinthians 12:7 and it clearly states that “thorns” are people.
Haven't even watched the video and based on the title, I can say Paul meant what he said and said what he meant from the Lord
No need to hear neo-Christian interpretation, period.
Amen!!!!
Amen
"didn't listen, lul"
Meant what he said and said what he meant. You're saying this based on your understanding of English or Greek. You're saying this by also taking into account Prisoclka taught Apollo, he personally worked with and comissioned Phoebe the Deacon to play a role in the Great Commission. You're saying this by taking into account what he meant when he said that women will be saved by childbirth? You're saying this by taking into account Lydya and Junia were his co-workers doing similar work as him? Check out NT Wright on the subject (TH-cam)
God’s word is higher and more important than our opinions and what we think is right.
You really have to listen to them--they don't provide the punchy and explicit "yes, Paul forbids women to teach in church" that we're all waiting for. But man, they structured the conversation well. Love it.
They gave a very structured argument which did NOT make the answer unequivocally clear.
@@rrickarr, Paul of Tarsus is saying Peter the fisherman says something about Jesus' teaching and a woman speaks the Old Testament Scripture to prove that it is Jesus speaking with power beyond, yet from, the Torah. Sort of like how Jesus states fulfillment or Jesus states beyond action is thought is the same sin to Yahweh. The Jewish woman is from memory quoting the Old Testament to state how Jesus is using the Scriptures to clarify and extend the power of God in our lives and thus revealing Peter is right to state what he is stating.
Paul of Tarsus is saying that he is a rabbi and doesn't need a woman to clarify things for the crowd or congregation as that would be an insult to him. Paul can give Christian doctrine and prove the point by using Old Testament Scripture whenever he wants. Its' all already in his head to prove his own point or sermon as correct.
We are not to sit there and figure out how to tell women they have no power or value in the church. The Pentateuch gives more written rights to women than all other documents prior to 1930 A.D. excluding the Pentateuch. This honoring of women through written rights was only surpassed because Jewish women in Christian lands felt free enough to make more changes for women.
Proverbs 31 reveals women have power to do good and act in our world. So could women support the ignorant Peter the fisherman? You better believe it cause they did. Can women ask questions and learn and give the Gospel of Good News and train up new believers in "THE WAY" that they should go? You better believe it cause they did. But a few rules needed to be laid down. Men in authority could tell women to stop interrupting sermons so that preaching can be accomplished and the women should refrain from interrupting the sermons and merely ask questions after the sermon to their husbands first and then other men, like the pastor if they still have questions. In like manner, leaders and preachers in the church had authority to stop women from interrupting them with quotes from Old Testament Scriptures as a rabbi doesn't need their idiotic speeches bothering them cause if people like Paul of Tarsus wanted to quote Old Testament Scripture he'd do it, but Peter the fisherman likely had people questioning him and didn't mind the women quoting Old Testament Scriptures so that the crowds would know Peter was right.
Peter still had authority over the woman helping him.
Paul of Tarsus wanted people who were women to be silent as he was a rabbi and certainly did not need their help.
Did you ever see that movie, "End of the Spear" where women went to South America after their husbands were speared like dogs by the natives? Those women would be like Deborah over Israel to any converts they gained in Christianity. Those women would be like husbands over their family to their small Christian church. Yahweh would be proud of those women preaching and teaching with authority. Let's be very clear about this.
You gotta look at culture and what was going on in that day… scripture says, in Christ, there is neither male nor female…. scripture also say, I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh, your sons and daughters shall prophesies…Deborah was a judge and prophet, Miriam as a leader of the nation, along with Moses and Aaron. 2 Kings 22, King Josiah finds the long-lost Book of the Law. Knowing the kingdom was in need of revival, he gathered some of the most trusted prophets…Huldah the prophetess had a leading role in the restoration. There are even NT women, where teachers and prophets. Phoebe held the title of “deacon” (Romans 16:1), Priscilla, was a teacher (Acts 18:26) People study your Bible 🤔
Many churches have women working in the church…singing, ushering, etc🤔
My worry is in cases where men have deliberately ignored church services and leadership roles in Church. Be it that the one who is available is Very controversial... But a woman is ready , qualified, knowledeable with all the Biblical concepts, and very passionate and zealous about Naturing the People of God, what to do ? Should the gospel stop, just coz only women are available ???
There are many women that are pastors or lead ministries today in the right direction. May Jesus lead the way.
Would it be so wrong to simply conclude that it means what it says? 🤔
Yes, it appears that what Paul tells us is an inconvenient truth in today's feminist society.
i suffered not a woman to teach is a BIG NO.
some say that's for the churches before.. but did Jesus died for that church only?
You miss so much when the debate is between two people sharing the same opinion.
there is no debate to be had here....THE SCRIPTURE IS VERY CLEAR AND REPEATED
Who are you debating? Paul?
Growing up I had some great Sunday school teachers and teachers at school who were female.
When Jesus rose from the tomb who did he tell to go spread the word he rose .
The Bible says a female should be submissive.
Does anyone really know a female who is truly submissive?
Everyone I know is very quick to give their opinions and say how things should be done and I don't see anything wrong with that.
The choir director at our church happens to be female and if it wasn't for her we wouldn't hear some great gospel hymns on Sunday morning.
Times have changed and people don't have problems with that.
I don't have any problems with it.
When the church has dinner it's the ladies who make the meals.
If it wasn't for the ladies most churches would have a very hard time.
We change but the word of God does not change!!! God is not going to step over His word!!! Remember He is PERFECT!!!!
@@felixtorres6826
I believe if it wasn't for females most churches wouldn't get much done.
The choir director was female and what do most churches like to do?
Eat, fill that plate up and overflow it.
The women made that dinner.
I believe he meant what he said
The context of the verse is (V.11) "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission." That is rarely highlighted when discussing this passage. Also, Paul said, "I (Paul) do not allow. There is no teaching that God does not allow.
1 Timothy 2:8-15 KJV
[8] I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. [9] In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; [10] but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. [11] Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. [12] But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. [13] For Adam was first formed, then Eve. [14] And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. [15] Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
Titus 1:5-16 KJV
[5] For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: [6] if any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. [7] For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; [8] but a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; [9] holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. [10] For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: [11] whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. [12] One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. [13] This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; [14] not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. [15] Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. [16] They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
1 Timothy 3:1-16 KJV
[1] This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. [2] A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; [3] not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; [4] one that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; [5] (for if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) [6] Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. [7] Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. [8] Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; [9] holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. [10] And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. [11] Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. [12] Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. [13] For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. [14] These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: [15] But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. [16] And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
I mean God is quite clear.
Good points. In fact Jesus includes women in His ministry. Paul mentions women prophesying. We have to remember we are reading a translation from another language and culture. What were the cultural and religious practices of these former worshipers of Artemis at Ephesus? The passage often referring to silence or not talking may also be translated 'peaceable' referring to a standard of behavior. Speaking of behavior this can also be taken in tandem with how he addresses men just above this passage calling for them not to quarrel or be angry....
Paul wrote “I” do not permit a woman to teach, not “God” does not permit a woman to teach/lead. “I” vs “God” -doesn’t that make a big difference and indicate it can be linked to culture and time?
Very good point. I was thinking that as well.
This is an interesting perspective considering that Paul always differentiates when he is giving his opinion from when he is speaking as an oracle of God (1 Cor 7:10-12). I believe this is one of such instances where he is making a transcultural statement from a personal opinion.
Exactly!
@@alexlouis9424
Fair, but how do you, however, avoid what they have said about the creation order and the fall?
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: God's word doesn't change to suit societies whims but is eternal and changes not!
Is there a chance that Paul was talking about married couples in the church? I am searching for someone to explain why it's translated man and woman, when it could be translated wife and husband (same words in Greek) - especially since he then goes on to talk about Adam and Eve.
Shhhhhh! 🤫
The backslidden seeker-sensitive demonically-doctrinal church doesn't want you to preach on such things!
And yes, you're right.
Yes. And even if he intended to extend it beyond married couples, he has moved from instructions to men and women in the plural, ie when gathered, to relationships between a woman (singular) and a man (singular); it seems to me that the text is indicating that it is best for a woman not to mentor a man in a one-to-one situation. The situation in a gathering is different, because there is public accountability both in terms of content and conduct.
They are letting the passage answer the question. They are so respectful to other views while disagreeing. It reminds me of Paul calling those in Areopagus "very religious people."
What was it, the passage answered?
@choloengringolandia hi I apologize for cussing at you and having sexual thoughts and ask for forgiveness
They gave a non answer...
One of the main tenants of bible interpretation is that is there seems to be a contradiction, you have to did deeper because there are no contradiction in the bible. It's very clear that the bible seems to contradict itself on this topic, as we see woman being used by God to Lead and even prophecy through the bible. So how do we level that?
Take a look at the context of 1 Tim 2:12-15 -- He is speaking to the church church of Ephesus, which is in the city of the Artemis Cult... the same Greek cult that taught woman was created first and therefore would have rule over man.
This is why Paul says what he says... Don't allow women to teach nor USURP Authority... then he goes on to re-explain the order of creation.
We always have to ask ourselves, why is something being written! Paul was writing to address a specific issue in the church. Notice too that Paul never said he was against women in authority in the church, he was against women who USURP authority - as if by force. This is pretty clear and cannot be looked over.
Women in that region had grown up learning that they were above men because of false teaching, and this was creeping in to the church and causing a disturbance. Women were still dressing as if they belonged to Artemis, they were teaching the Artemis doctrines and they were trying to usurp authority. Paul wrote the letter as an authority figure to address this so that Timothy would have the authoritative backing to correct this in his church.
This is similar to the correction of woman in the church at Corinth, which was home to the temple of another pagan goddess - Paul Was addressing disorder in church services regarding Spiritual things - Communion, gifts, tongues, prophecy etc, and also addressed the woman who were speaking out of line and disturbing the service with questions and false teachings.
2000 years later we can take principles from this and apply it if we have similar things happening, but this is not a scripture that is plainly interpreted because of the fact there are other bible examples that seem to go against it. Always use EXEGESIS first, which is letting the bible tell you what it says, but if there are things that don't line up, you need to ask questions and find out why something was written - context, culture, authors intent.
I hope this helps someone out there!
I always find this debate interesting because I've not been able to find one single bible verse that mentions that Jesus, Himself, ever said women could not preach, be leaders, teach, prophesy, etc. In fact, when Jesus arose from the dead he first appeared to women, not His disciples. Paul wrote a letter to Timothy at Ephesus regarding women not preaching due to what was going on in that culture at the time.But even in Paul's time, there were women preachers: Priscilla, Phoebe, Junia (I'm sure some of you will argue that they were teachers and not pastors, but Paul's letters doesn't state "teachers"). It's interesting that only Paul mentions about women not preaching and not any of Jesus' other Disciples who authored books of the N.T. Personally, I do not believe I should preach over men. But this debate doesn't help anyone. And it's not a matter of salvation. We can all pick out scriptures that support our claims, but I think you have to read scriptures in context of the entire chapter and book the scripture came from. You also have to look at the audience of the time, the culture, and what was going on in the early churches. I will leave with this: Acts 2:17-18 "In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy," Paul says.
I didn't mention Deborah because she was O.T. and not during Paul's ministry. I only mentioned women during his ministry that he specifically mentioned himself in his N.T. Letters. I think Christians cause more division between themselves on matters that are not important to an individual's salvation. The rest of a non-believing world watches us Christians debate, argue, and divisive ness. There are verses in scripture that warn Christians about this too. Personally, I would not attend a church pastored by a woman unless God led me to. So far, He hasn't. But I don't knock other people for doing it. God can use anyone to His glory and purposes according to His will. Who am I to question that? There's a lot of men preachers out there that are wolves in sheep's clothing. There are male preachers out there that abuse their power in the church too. So there is that!
This argument they use is hard to follow for other texts. For example, how a believer should cover his/her head has an eternal argument in 1Co just as much as against women pastors. And one has been culturally forgotten, when the other people are still following.
Thank you for this observation. This is a very good point to bring into their discussion. Peace to you
I would suggest that the *principle* in 1 Corinthians is what is eternal. Paul masterfully shows us how to take an eternal principle (the same principle that he used in the discussion in 1 Timothy 2) and apply it to a cultural condition.
There is no argument.. women should cover their heads... the Marxist feminist movements Infiltrated the church in the 1960s. During the feminist movement "submission" to husband was seen as "controlling and misogynist" instead of seen as the holy purposeful order of creation. Of Christ's faithful SUBMISSION to the Loving AUTHORITY of Father God. As well as, representative of women being Christ's bride. Men and women ought to outwardly show this same divine order and union of love with a man not covering his head as the bridegroom (christ) and women wearing a covering as the bride (the church). Paul goes into 15 verses about this..he was CLEAR. He gave the sound theological reasoning as to WHY it MUST be done. It was all deeply accepted as theological and understood as a COMMAND for almost a millenia and accepted across ALL denominations until JUST 60 years ago (again during the anti-god, sexual liberation, Marxist feminist movement). But, men abused their authority and women rebelled. It's that simple. That's sin for you. Now is the time to address this as we now are seeing another marxist , anti God, culteral revolution taking over our country and AGAIN making its way into the church! This video isn't about headcoverings, so it's not covered here in this video. They should make one for sure!!
@@angieruthw Why do Jewish men cover their heads?
Masterful discussion that cuts thru all of our arguments for women preaching and having authority over men. Thank you.
I would suggest that teaching is different to preaching.
@@leighclough100 Sorry you're OFFENDED.
Even as a new believer (and a believer in equal rights), I've never understood the fight to fill the same roles as men just to prove equal value. GOD made me of equal VALUE, whether some people believe it or not. Male and female He created THEM in His image. God knows there is a dearth of strong females in the church able to teach and affirm women of their uniqueness rather than fighting to fulfill mens roles (which we sometimes have to do when men won't step up). To pastor means to have authority which means to have the power to direct and discipline. It makes no sense to put the head of MY home and all the other men in the church under the headship of ANOTHER woman. I'm also a liberal in my social beliefs because i always think "what would Jesus do". The world and positioning does not give me WORTH, but the God who made me little less than the Angels does....all this "does scripture really mean what it says, in the new testament is crazy to me.
So do you wear face covering at church? People have genuine questions about how to apply the Word of God in today's world. They're not trying to bend it, just trying to understand it.
Exactly. But today's feminist culture rejects the idea men and women have different roles, and many Christians have been deceived by that culture.
@@seiwonlee you should
@@Rose-zh5xg You should what? Wear head coverings?? I'm convinced that when it's all said and done, it won't be about the strict or relative interpretation of the Word of God as there are things that are difficult to understand in our limited capacity (which is why he gave us the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truths). What will stand the test of time is whether we loved God and others with the love of Christ... vs whether we were just the clanging symbols while speaking in tongues of angels, having the gift of prophesy, fathom all knowledge, have incredible faith... none of that will matter if we Christians do not approach this world from the centeredness of the love of Christ. Sorry, I digressed from the topic at hand :). Just can't stand supposed men of God putting down servants like Beth Moore in incredibly ungodly speech without any remorse. Most of these supposed leaders of Christian faith didn't speak a darn thing against Trump and his team's deeds of hellish pride and deceptions leading to hatred and divisions. Beth Moore was the only leader (woman at that) to speak against Christians following blindly into the dangerous sentiment that Trump was saving the world. Where were all the leaders/men??? Sorry for the rant.
@@seiwonlee what's wrong with a head covering?
Paul was engaged in building up the early church among the gentiles and that involved contending for the faith once delivered to the saints. His letters to Timothy provided instruction on how best to continue that work. Right from the day of Pentecost, Christian saints continued steadfastly in the apostle’s doctrine. We should do the same. Men as well as women must be disciplined in rightly handling the word of truth in order to avoid deception and error, reminding ourselves that teachers are held to a higher standard and we must all give an account.
He meant EXACTLY what it says.
You gotta look at culture and what was going on in that day… scripture says, in Christ, there is neither male nor female…. scripture also say, I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh, your sons and daughters shall prophesies…Deborah was a judge and prophet, Miriam as a leader of the nation, along with Moses and Aaron. 2 Kings 22, King Josiah finds the long-lost Book of the Law. Knowing the kingdom was in need of revival, he gathered some of the most trusted prophets…Huldah the prophetess had a leading role in the restoration. There are even NT women, where teachers and prophets. Phoebe held the title of “deacon” (Romans 16:1), Priscilla, was a teacher (Acts 18:26) People study your Bible 🤔
Many churches have women working in the church…singing, ushering, etc🤔
Imperial Ignorance!!!
This is so common today. But hey, they did say that Paul's argument can not be avoided by any justifications today's guys are making if I heard them correctly. I just think they are trying to be careful not to be too offensive!! But this is not good. We have to be offensive to the culture if it means the truth. We were taught by them things we were unaware of and now things are getting muddy!
@@pastorjohnpiper8864 Aren't you the fake Piper?
God's teachers are only human. But God inspired the Scripture, and he inspired it to be understood. Basically, there are quite a few examples of women being deceived in the history of the world, and in Christian contexts. This has led to unnatural misfortune of those involved. Adam was to rule over Eve. The husband over the wife, and in the church, the elders teach the entire church, and it is passed on most normally to women and children by ladies. But it is all with understanding that there remain such roles in church and also in family. Anyone can be a fool. We are all commanded to seek peace and wisdom. But God set up roles in the church and in family. Let us do our best to follow the Holy Spirit, the written word (Bible), and such roles that lead us to peace in our society today, as we await His return.
@@ghostl1124 I could not agree less.
@@surenshrestha6405 Ditto
This is actually a very easy issue. Nobody should be in a teaching/leading position unless called to do so. It doesn't matter who you are - if you are there because of your own desires instead of God's calling, you shouldn't be there. And if God is calling you to that position, I'm not going to stand in the way of God. If women aren't supposed to be in those positions, they won't be called.
You gotta look at culture and what was going on in that day… scripture says, in Christ, there is neither male nor female…. scripture also say, I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh, your sons and daughters shall prophesies…Deborah was a judge and prophet, Miriam as a leader of the nation, along with Moses and Aaron. 2 Kings 22, King Josiah finds the long-lost Book of the Law. Knowing the kingdom was in need of revival, he gathered some of the most trusted prophets…Huldah the prophetess had a leading role in the restoration. There are even NT women, where teachers and prophets. Phoebe held the title of “deacon” (Romans 16:1), Priscilla, was a teacher (Acts 18:26) People study your Bible 🤔
Many churches have women working in the church…singing, ushering, etc🤔
Good presentation of the grounds and validity of Paul's restriction, and of some contemporary arguments against the restriction.
He meant EXACTLY and literally what the words say. Theists should not try to interpret some parts of the bible they don't like ( the parts that are immoral, sexist or uncomfortable )
It really angers me when people take the most clear and plain scriptures and say: “What did the author “really” mean when he said these things?” It’s just so ridiculous, it’s not even funny.
Honestly, it is deceitful to even question the obvious.
To all those who say, "What God said cannot be questioned." I cannot find where our conversation went, so I am replying right here. PAUL was responding to specific problems in each church. Why he said that to that particular church is not known. But CHRIST, who is the Son of God, the one God reveals Himself to us through, Jesus Christ Himself, sent woman to preach the Gospel. He sent the woman at the well back to tell the entire story of who He was and what He had done for her. Because of her the entire city was saved. HE sent the women at the tomb to go tell the disciples that He had risen from the dead! He told Mary to tell others that Christ was on His way. God told Elizabeth the entire plan and these two women believed God's word and THEY were the ones who told the world. The WOMAN understood that Christ was going to be crucified while the MEN were posturing for which one was more important and would sit by God's right hand. MARY TAUGHT JESUS WHAT HE NEEDED TO KNOW! If you have anything else to say about that, then you need to go scold Christ and explain to HIM why He was wrong in telling these woman to go and tell. And yes, I agree. The word of God, as displayed through Christ, cannot be questioned, even by those who feel they are Holier than Thou and and think they know better than Christ did. SO TAKE IT UP WITH CHRIST! NOT ME!
Amen!! Mary preached first when the other disciples were distraught and doubting Jesus's return.
@@FGFWTX You are right. The Catholic Church was SO AFRAID of Mary and other women's Faith that they made up a lie, that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute! Just like men do today if a woman succeeds at something past a man. The Catholic Church has since apologized, but the women were sent to preach by Christ and they never questioned or asked to be on the right hand of God like the men did. The women ALWAYS got it before the men did. And men are still starting stories to prove that only men were important to God. 2,000 years and they are still just vying for attention.
Am impressed with your idea...i.e,Jesus at the well did not send that woman to preach but after she mentioned of the messiah coming, Jesus said am he but still the woman did not believe.If you read in John 4 vs 29, hear what the woman said to the samaritans for yourself cos if she really believed that He was the messiah, how come she said the man who has told me?
Let's study the word with the help of the Holy Spirit. And the issue of a woman being forbidden to preaching is in the church not in evangelism or in women ministry at a local church. Read 1 Corinthians 11:1-3.I think this is where Paul got the same inspiration to write to Timothy and Titus because these were running churches in different cities. Timothy was in ephesus and Titus in crete. I see no point why people can't understand on this instruction of Christ.For clarity read 1 Corinthians 11:1- 19 & 14:33-35🙏🙏🙏
Paul was talking to the women whore were not in christ yet. They were still worldly. Then he said in Galatians 3: 28. In christ Jesus there is neither male nor female. Once you are in christ Jesus god doesnt look between peoples legs, he looks at the heart!
Like wise isaiah 54:5 god says i am your husband, that doesnt make all men poofters
Acts 2:17 "'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons AND daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
Has nothing to do with the issue of women forcing themselves into pastor positions in God's church.
1 Timothy 2:8-15 KJV
[8] I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. [9] In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; [10] but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. [11] Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. [12] But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. [13] For Adam was first formed, then Eve. [14] And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. [15] Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
Titus 1:5-16 KJV
[5] For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: [6] if any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. [7] For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; [8] but a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; [9] holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. [10] For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: [11] whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. [12] One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. [13] This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; [14] not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. [15] Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. [16] They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
1 Timothy 3:1-16 KJV
[1] This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. [2] A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; [3] not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; [4] one that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; [5] (for if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) [6] Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. [7] Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. [8] Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; [9] holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. [10] And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. [11] Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. [12] Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. [13] For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. [14] These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: [15] But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. [16] And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
I mean God is quite clear.
“how do you know it’s true for all time” -- good question
Because God said so and he does not change. If God's word can change then we are like a ship without a sail . Going nowhere fast.
@@johnno8973 Do we still sacrifice lambs at the altar?
@@fefemarks315 Not anymore. Jesus was the last sinless lamb on cross for the whole world.
Where is the answer in all this dialogue? Are women allowed to preach or not? Does Paul say “Yes or no”? The direct interpretation is clearly “no” on both points. That is distressing so we look for deeper meanings behind the writing and clearly don’t find them here.
MrRea112, well, who taught Apollos about the Holy Spirit? And who was sitting at the Masters’ feet while Martha worked in the kitchen? Who was the first evangelist? How many rules of the day did Jesus break? How did He treat women? Are you aware that there were women pastors in home churches in the 1st century?
@@michaelbrickley2443 Let’s not move off at a tangent here.
I was merely asking for an answer to what Paul wrote about and why and nobody seems to be able to shed any more light on this. These are two eminent scholars who I’d have expected more from.
@@michaelbrickley2443 Paul isn’t saying you should mistreat women, he isn’t saying women shouldn’t evangelize, he is saying they should not teach thus taking authority over men (going against God’s ordained structure). There is no doubt that there were women pastors in the 1st century, if there weren’t women pastors, Paul wouldn’t have had to tell them to stop teaching men.
@@michaelbrickley2443 The bible tells us in 1 Timothy that pastors/ elders oversee and rule over the church. So the question is..... Does the Bible permit a woman to oversee or rule over a man?...no. Can a woman teach other woman or children?... yes. Can a woman take the title of pastor?... no
God has and will continue to use woman in might and powerful ways. But God has also ordained an order....
@MrRea what Robert John said.
RIDDLE ME THIS!!!
When a Woman stands up and preaches, is she sinning?
What if the men don't stand up, let that town fall?
How is it a sin to teach the Gospel?
THIS! my people, is why the enemy is advancing on all fronts!
Read Isaiah 3:12
@@bavarcas 😂😂😂 First of sell, That's referring to Judah. Second, you didn't answer my question. Third, "Christians" like you are terrible. Peace be with you.
God cares about the means to the end. For instance, God has commanded the filling of the earth but does he approve fornication and adultery yet these two can bring about offsprings?
@@wilsonwaigwa520 are you going to answer the question or make a completely unrelated comparison?
Please correct me if I am mistaken, but Corinth was in Greece and Timothy was also in that area. One of the 7 wonders of the ancient world was the Temple of Artemis and if you study what was going on there and read these passages in the Bible it appears that Paul was speaking against this temple worship and not against women in general.
Nope. That's totally made up, revisionist history, made for feminism by feminists. They literally made it up out of thin air. The worship of Artemis was occurring in that local, as in others, but all the claims they make about the rest is nonsense. There's no historical records to back up their claim that Paul was only preaching about these particular women at this particular time.
He meant what he said. The words of Lord God Christ Jesus, are absolute and eternal. No way round around it. Period.
so what?
@@camerong5513 the message is not for you then.
@@ahermit272 you're projecting, ya dizzy person
@@camerong5513 begone satan.
@@ahermit272 oh what a DS you are
personally I am very torn about the whole thing. I am a christian. I believe the bible. That being said I have become very alarmed regarding this teaching by Paul, and to be brutally honest, alarmed at a few things that Paul has done. I find no fault in Paul's doctrine, how could I as it was imparted directly from the Spirit and he was not taught it by man. The problem I have is that we as a group of believers have held Paul up to be a perfect example of the doctrine he preached and a perfect example of the Lord Jesus Christ. I realize that this is a very unpopular thing to say but I believe that Paul still struggled in fully appropriating the things he preached in his own life and ministry. To be clear, I am not trying to defame Paul and as a mater of fact I can't think of anyone else who would have chosen to suffer as he did for years in order to preach the gospel and "mystery" of God to the church. Can you imagine being told by God "For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake." Acts 9:16. Back to the issue at hand. In my view two things can be at play here. 1) It was intrenched within the Jewish scriptures that women are second class citizens, the Rabis taught this for centuries. The Jews were as bad as the Muslims when it came to women, and much of the quaran and the respective jewish scriptures are identical regarding women. Paul being a good Pharisee would have been steeped in it. Do you know how hard it is to disown something that has been pounded into your head your entire life? I think that this would have been very hard to change in his attitudes. 2) to my knowledge Paul only mentions the prohibition against women in two epistles. Corinthians and Timothy. Because of this I believe that his instruction was largely situational. Both churches addressed had unique situations going on. The Church at Corinth was literally in a chaotic mess and the Church of Ephesus had problems with the local pagan church of Artemis trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. Artemis was the goddess of fertility and as such there were thousands of temple prostitutes roaming the streets and no doubt entering the church of Ephesus and trying to lead astray the people back to the old pagan ways they once lived in. neither place was an ideal situation for women in ministry. Although Paul in his explanation cites Genesis for his stance he does not elaborate why Adam sinned by partaking of the apple with Eve, there's a story to that. Personally I'm inclined to believe that is prohibition is situational because for it to be a blanket ordinance would be to go against previous Old Testament precedence. Regarding the other issues I have with Paul's actions such as, Circumcising Timothy, even though he preached against it. Taking the vow of the Nazarite (which would have included three sacrifices, one for sin) at least twice. Continuing to keep the feasts, etc I will have to continue to seek the Lord's light upon. I do know that we have to be very careful not to hold any of the apostles or ministers of old up as perfect examples. Paul had to correct Peter and Barnabas regarding their separating themselves from Gentile believers. Only the Lord Jesus Christ is to be put on that pedestal.
Paul was a grace-saved sinner just like the rest of us, and he says so in Romans 7. That he struggles with his sin mightily and realizes his salvation from his body of flesh is Jesus is of no comfort to those of us who cannot encapsulate his theology in our spiritual lives. Most argumentation of theology is centered in Paul's contested epistles, not his uncontested ones. I do not see any discomfort in Jesus' ministry regarding women, nor do I see women a step behind the men following Him. Jesus revealed Himself as Messiah to a Samaritan woman, not a man, and relied on her to spread His Name. Many examples of faithful women are revealed in the tetraeuangelion, and these should be identified before relegating this argument to being one of complimentarianism. This is an uneducated cop-out. Keep studying the scriptures and especially read the 4-Gospels as a harmonious unit like it was read 1st-2nd century.
They took an awfully long time to give a fuzzy answer. Not a direct “yes” or “no”, just a very loquacious “I haven’t been convinced by the other side”. And they both completely ignore Paul’s instructions to the church at Corinth regarding women who prophesy. Instead of telling them to shut up, as he told the women in Ephesus, Paul tells the Corinthian women to cover their heads. Does prophecy (speaking the very words of God) not also come with authority? Were the Corinthian women speaking their own words? One cannot conveniently ignore Paul’s instructions to Corinth and only use Ephesus as the basis for interpreting the passage. Either Paul contradicted himself or he didn’t.
The pastoral epistles (1 Tim for example) are written specifically for the requirements of pastor/elder, 1 Corinthians is not.
Are you saying that there is never any situation in which someone is justified in wishing to accompany their view with their reasons for their view?
The answer to your question about prophecy is no - it doesn't come with authority. The Corinthian women clearly prophesy - it is not condemned. It's good you raise this though because it gives insight into what is really being forbidden in 1 Timothy 2. It is about being or not being responsible for ultimate doctrinal and pastoral discernment. Prophecy requires neither and in the new covenant doesn't have "Thus sayeth the lord" authority.
Prophesy to teaching to preaching are different to me is like the first one us randomly and the other specific teaching or message to a group ppl or church
Well, in that case, (seeming contradiction), what of the scripture which says that there is neither Jew nor Greek, male or female, but ONE NEW MAN in Christ?
Read the book What Did Paul Really Said About Women by John T. Bristow. We have to keep in mind that the culture was different then. Paul was actually writing a letter and speaking to a specific church with a specific problem (not all the churches of that time) , plus we only hear one side of the conversation and concerns at that time
I really don’t understand why people keep saying that 1 Timothy 2 is controversial. The words are clear. Why is it so grey snd controversial? Only those who wish to go again G-d and his word say it’s controversial. Other verses in other epistles says the same thing… nothing controversy out it.
If you go back to creation then eve being necessary to complete Adam/the image of God in creation it does seem as if excluding women from the majority of meaningful contributions in Christian gatherings is at odds with that. And argument for the specific and contextual reason could be the fact that Paul gives parameters for women prophesying in Corinthians. So, what he is excluding cannot be all women to be silent and not teach Gods word for all time.
will someone please answer my question with godly wisdom... when a Godly and knowledgeable woman has to say something about the Word of God to a man who isnt really deep in faith, is that wrong ?
Please answer this question first: What EXACTLY do you mean by "has something to say about the Word of God to a man"? You are being quite vague in the way you put the question, and in your qualification as to who can answer it for you. Frankly it seems that is intentional. And that right there is ONE of several reasons why God does not permit a woman to teach a man, or have authority over him.
@@RK-db4oq well it is simple question, if you want to talk about your view as you’ve been reading the Bible too.. is that wrong? the Buble also said that there i neither male or female all one in Christ Jesus. I think the problem is the women in Corinth, and women also in their nature are behaves and speaks recklessly but God can changed that if woman chooses to the problem is it is difficult to get away from it and only few can overcome it
@@whywearehere7517 Your question is not simple--it was broad and vague--which is why I asked for clarification. And you still have not provided that clarification. As you well know, your question also had an ulterior motive (it was in fact a statement framed as a question, rather than an honest question, which is a common rhetorical device). Most men can see right through it, but because you are a woman and God built men to defer to women in most matters, most men will not call you out on it. This is another reason why woman cannot be teachers of men when it comes to the Bible and the things of God--when you teach even obviously wrong doctrine you will not be as readily challenged by other men. Men have no problem challenging other men who teach obviously wrong doctrine.
In my opinion, if 1 Timothy 2:12 is so plain to be understood, Ruth's question is plain as well. It is NOT wrong that a Godly and knowledgeable woman SHARE or even tell the Word of God, not only WITH or TO a man who is not deeply rooted in the Scriptures but also WITH a very Godly and knowledgeable man too. The problem is WHEN THE CONGREGATION COMES "TOGETHER", whether it be in Church or in any unconventional gathering of brothers and sister, where they ALL come TOGETHER in FELLOWSHIP to be TAUGHT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. Remember: The Lord Jesus Christ told us that THE HOLY SPIRIT is our SOLE TEACHER OF THE WORD. But, since The Holy Spirit works through human beings, HE DOESN'T GIVE THAT TEACHING AUTHORITY TO WOMEN. He uses MEN to minister The Word of God to the Congregation. No matter how much we can protest to this fact, The Word of God can never be broken, only our DISOBEDIENCE becomes an evident DARK LIGHT that doesn't shine to the world.
@@RK-db4oq okay I wont argue or debate with you. ofcourse I am woman and asking questions like this, is that even wrong? i think there is something wrong thatyouve been in a relationship with God reading the Word Of God sincerely and not even talking about your view and do not even shareit. but i agree men should be the leader and woman should not be above of men. whatever may be the right way of thinking i am a woman and a child of God. and i think i have rights to even say my opinion.
Beautiful and right interpretation. It forbids women from the priestly ministry (that is to rule, judge and represent Christ’s headship over the church) but not from studying and sharing the gospel. It prevents women from assuming authority over men.
Brilliant indeed!
Furthermore, they have neither the moral nor the intellectual standing such a position calls for.
@Thanks anyway - anytime we need to put down another by saying, "they don't have the capacity to do...' you didn't listen to what these brilliant speakers have said AT ALL. They can teach, preach and disciple but not over congregations. It's not that they cannot its that it's not edifying. Eve can lead as women do today but is it edifying - not when it takes away from the core role of being home builders.
@@thanksanyway.3330 I'm praying for you today. May the Holy Spirit touch your brain, Amen.
@@ladyT2Dwerl They can hardly build anything when they aren't able to even build themselves!
@@Tarlyne Rather pray for yourself!
I struggle with this bc I am trying to understand where the line is drawn for women who clearly have a gift of teaching???
To me, the passage is a double indictment: 1) women, don’t teach men and 2) men, don’t put your women in a position where they are starved for your leadership. While I align with a straight-forward interp of the passage, it is very discouraging when women are good teachers, but are in marriages or churches where the men simply won’t do that. Most fall asleep in church, spend the rest of the day watching football, are engrossed in work Monday through Friday, then are ready to play on Saturday. In teaching women, I find this to be a common frustration.
👌Said it
Hey. It's the bible. Think whatever you want.
No right or wrong answers when it comes down to faith
The man who would rather go to the couch potato husband's Bible study than his wife's class when she is diligently studying Scriptures all day, every day is dumb. Their different fruit will be obvious.
It almost sounds like Paul didn’t want women to teach in church.
So female pastors are sinning as we speak.
Lol! Almost!🙄 Amazing how unclear scripture becomes when it becomes socially unacceptable or not what we want.
@@vinnievu1 Hm, that would seem to follow.
Paul was quoting the Old Testament, not his own understanding like we do in America
@@factsfirst7621 And that's what we should do, right? It should not be based on our understanding, it should be based on what the Bible teaches, both Old and New Testament.
I wished people could see that it’s God’s love and protection covering woman keeping them in a safe place!
You gotta look at culture and what was going on in that day… scripture says, in Christ, there is neither male nor female…. scripture also say, I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh, your sons and daughters shall prophesies…Deborah was a judge and prophet, Miriam as a leader of the nation, along with Moses and Aaron. 2 Kings 22, King Josiah finds the long-lost Book of the Law. Knowing the kingdom was in need of revival, he gathered some of the most trusted prophets…Huldah the prophetess had a leading role in the restoration. There are even NT women, where teachers and prophets. Phoebe held the title of “deacon” (Romans 16:1), Priscilla, was a teacher (Acts 18:26) People study your Bible 🤔
Many churches have women working in the church…singing, ushering, etc🤔
That Paul give this instruction to Timothy, based in Ephesus, could give it a very definite localised meaning. Ephesus was the seat of Diana worship. In both Timothy epistles, Paul on several occasions warns against endless genealogies. This is hugely significant. The priestesses of Diana, so I'm informed, held a gnostic and perverse view of life. Women were more spiritually enlightened than men and only they were suitable as priests to Diana. They held the view that Eve was born first - suggesting her pre-eminence - and that Adam was her son. Hence Paul stresses that Adam was first and that Eve was deceived, thus refuting the idea that women in Ephesus taught with mystical, authoritative knowledge. Try reading both epistles again with those thoughts in your mind.