At least when you play total mayhem he gets to be the only counter to invincible zarya, not because he can kill her, no one can do that, but because he can punch her off the obj faster than she can walk back to it.
@@lunacy5510 disclaimer, Im no pro, but it does seem like the matchup has shifted a lot yeah. Hack being easier to get off plus the damage boost is just lethal af if you get them in awkward situations.
They probably were thinking of mine and sights? But only being able to force sombra to play scared once every couple of fights doesn't make it a counter... Hanzo, on the other hand, is a valid take. Doesn't lose too much if he gets hacked, still has 1-shot potential. Is much more mobile/aware than Widow. And can spotcheck with Sonic better/more often than Widow can with Mine/sights
Honestly when I play widow I need to be aware of sombra hunting me but widow has the tools to deal with her. Revealing her is pretty easy and you can grapple to reposition to a spot where you have the advantage. And hot take but their primary fires so similar damage if just spraying and praying, but widow happens to have the potential to one shot. Widow has the advantage at range, has a tool to easily get that range, and her venom mine makes it harder for sombra to sneak up on widow compared to sneaking up on other characters. Not to mention widow ult, counter sombra even without being anywhere near her. Fighting Sombra isn’t super fun but all sombra can do is waste her time trying to find and fight widow. Before Sombra gets to widow, Widow can spend her time actually taking out the enemy team, and just being aware that Sombra will come in for a 1v1 soon. Then widow simply takes the 1v1 and/or repositions. Maybe I just fight trash sombra’s but I’d rather be the widowmaker in that situation. It’s more difficult as widowmaker to deal with a genji or reaper than a sombra
I think the logic is supposedly that if Widow wants picks and your team are behind your shield you are countered but its more of a bandaid than an actual counter lol. Rein can't just be a shield bot.
@@BushSage what kills me is that even by the logic of "shield blocks sightlines", sig >>> rein b/c the barrier can be deployed at any angle and at any range. still not a counter, but that just shows how idiotic this chart is
I have been in situations where as rein I have dueled widow and that was because I dominated enemy rein to aim at widow with fire strike to help my struggling sniper. Only because I had no other better target. And I could get angle safe and call out her movements for my Lucio or genji to chase. And get the supports to look away from the enemy reinhardt so I can blow up the reinhardt. *edit* also widow hard scopes so random fire strike or spear hits way more than it should. But no way is rein good against widow
I would honestly love to see Flats make his own version of this, maybe 2-3 strong picks against each hero. I learn so much from his ranting, its glorious. :)
@Charly I think if there's an enemy player who is extremely good and is destroying your whole team, it'd probably be good to have a chart on hand to quickly let you know what characters the enemy might have more trouble with. I've had several times where we've just been destroyed by a particularly good player, and not had any idea who to pick. We were getting killed by a really good pharah, and our dps' switched to hanzo and soldier 76, and we lost the game because they weren't able to hit the pharah, and next game we saw a bastion and mcree counter our pharah, and realized that those characters are easier to hit pharah with.
I remember using basic counter charts in ow1 and it helped me a lot. I googled a chart recently and this is the best result on Google images. if I was slightly less familiar with the game he would've 100% messed me up, but I managed to realize they made no sense. context: I'm a gold casual player who only plays to enjoy the game
@Charly You really like thinking about this in black and white terms. Whether or not it will provide any beneficial impact at all seems irrelevant to you, you just think that because it is not a one-stop shop solution, it is worthless and nobody should use it. How is a player supposed to look at the entire roster and come to the conclusion of what hero they should pick if they're struggling with being attacked by a genji, for example? They have no fucking clue unless someone tells them something like 'this character has an easier time with dealing with flankers". I myself have no clue what I would pick in that situation, because I haven't been in that situation yet. And as soon as I am, you know the first thing I'm doing is alt tabbing and looking up what counters genji. I don't care if it's not 'meta' to not coordinate your character picks with your team, but do you REALLY think that me being slightly non-optimal in terms of team composition is going to matter if I'm at the level where I don't know which characters are good against what?
13:15 I’d say it’s fair to consider Moira’s fade better than Kiriko’s teleport as an escape for one reason, and that’s flexibility. Kiriko depends on having a teammate in a decent position to escape to, Moira can just woosh off to Narnia any time she feels like it.
@@ClorxxKage Ya know, I think it just might be the case that tp is worse than fade cuz what if your teammates aren’t anywhere nearby. Moira can disappear at any moment.
With Kiriko, a lot of times you'll just be teleporting out of a bad position, to an even worse one because (for me) almost all the time my closest teammate is either in a fight too, or running away from one while being shot at. Your survival is dependent on someone else more than a Moira fade. It's good for aiding your team instead of running away, while Moira fade is good for both. Not to mention, it's fun to jump out of fade.
i love that doomfist, a character maybe best known for having aggressively “i’ll actively keep you from playing this hero” hard counters, has none of those said counters on that chart.
@@jeksewnoleeray1020 every ranked match against a doomfist the play is to ignore him even if he’s on point so his team tilts against him causing someone to throw
Sombra not being under the Sigma counters physically hurts me. Against a decent Sombra it's basically impossible to use your ult as Sigma! He's almost all channeled abilities!
Or you can be in OT and about to win with flux and they swap Sombra and run out and hack you as soon as you use it causing you lose a game by losing your game winning ult to a hack that you couldn't have stopped because she just runs out and hacks you while invisible
That's really not accurate at all. I'm sorry but it's actually close to the other way around. Sigma has a deployable shield with which to shield dance. It's quite easy to deal with Sombra.
@@mekacrab kiriko, is much better at fightin junk than ana, like kiriko can 2 tap any dmg dealer can immunize herself from any of the dmg and knockback, and can teleport out as soon as she sees a bomb coming towards her ana cant really do anything against the pure burst of junk
Unironically, Ball's ability to slingshot himself into the air, exit ball form, and shoot the Pharah up close while mid air - actively makes Ball better at helping deal with Pharah than 80% of the tank roster. As a Pharah main, whenever I pick ball I always do this and enemy Pharahs hate it xD
Would be great to get a list of "counterplay" with suggested picks from Flats, so so many metal rank players don't know how to deal with certain characters and keep ramming their heads against a brick wall until they lose the game, even in high Plat
The counter in low ranks is just to be more skilled than your opponents, because character synergies barely matter when no one on your team is playing the same video game.
@@lunafoxfire Correct, but if someone is able to outplay a Plat player on any character in their role, guess what, that person climbed out of Plat a long time ago... Even though "just be a GM" is technically speaking a solution, it's not a possible one for 90% of the playerbase. Besides, that's not even what I'm talking about, I'm talking about bringing awareness, not cheats for climbing, I'm talking about having 4 people afk spam a double pocketed orisa and being unable to kill her all game, instead of just getting the rest of the team first. I would be surprised if a Diamond player could consistently 1v5 carry in Plat, you'd have to be much, much higher to pull that off
@@mekacrab ah, another intellectual, the "just be a GM DPS player and 1v5" argument is so boring... If you read the replies you'd know I already explained that I'm not talking about that
Zbra and aquamarine scare me with what they do with their respective heroes. Doomfist is weak normally but zbra really doesn’t make it look that way. Junkrat is already really good but aquamarine just makes him more horrifying.
@@firstnamelastname9237 as a fellow Junkrat main Aquamarine and PvPx are insane and true inspiration lol and yeah ZBRA and all them one tricks scare the shot outta me too lol
They put him as a counter to Cassidy. I honestly have no idea why. What, is High Noon really a huge problem for the guy who made this? That's the only rationale I can think of that makes Bap uniquely able to beat Cassidy more than any other character, and that's about as flimsy as it gets.
This list feels like it was made by someone who plays whenever friends are on. They don't really learn characters they just play what they like and consider anyone that kills their main "hard counters."
As a support main that plays zen and ana, I'm left to deal with at least 1 of the dps most of the time while my dps pointlessly tickle the tank getting infinite heals.
The way he was talking about Dva DMing projectiles just made me imagine that she literally eats them when she DMs. I'm cracking myself up just imagining that she's snatching them up like she has a frog tongue and consuming them.
my favorite one wasnt even discussed, they had Widow as a counter for Sombra. Lol Widow might gain a few seconds of reprieve from getting mugged for her lunch money when she pops her ult.
Whoa whoa whoa back the fuck. JUNKRAT is a Sombra counter on the chart. Rat is the one DPS I’m happy to see when locking Sombra. What is this guy smoking?
im guessing hits cause of the mine? + her ult, but ye hardly a counter usually the other way around. if anything. though i guess she can also one tap her? so she cant teleport out intime?
If widow is in a spot where sombra can only reach her from a couple directions, widow blocks off one direction with venom mine. The other direction widow is fully aware that a sombra will appear soon. The most a sombra can do is occasionally cause the widow to stop mowing down your team to mow you down instead. Widow is not locked into sniper fire, she can spray a few primary fire bullets out near her every now and then to try to catch sombra. She can also reposition with her grapple. Sombra will spend most of the game trying to find widow and trying to avoid the venom mine/occasionally shots fired. When sombra does fight widow, you either coinflip since your close range automatic weapons do similar damage anyways, or pray you don’t get one shot by a widow who’s capable of landing close range sniper headshots. Even Genji does a better job at ruining widows day. If the widow knows what sombra does it’s not that difficult to deal with sombra
As a support player who plays a ton of Ana and Zen, seeing Zen next to Zarya and Ana next to Genji sent me to a dark place. Zen apparently counters a hero who's primary ability removes discord orbs. And the genji one is the most backwards ass thing. Genji dives the hell out of Ana, is very hard to hit with sleep and is capable of deflecting all her abilities.
@@mekacrab "junkrat is still not a counter to most picks".....well as a junk main i can easily say ....he counters everyone, you just have to know how the only challenging ones are zarya torb bastion and echo cause her flying isnt as predictable as pharahs movement.....
i wish he would've ignored it since it's a waste of time + stupid. make your own list if you think there's a better list to make, or realize there are no "counters" in OW2, just strengths and weaknesses which all depend on your comp and the map mode.
The fact that they didn’t put Kiriko a counter for JQ shows you how much they understand about the game. She can just sit back and hit headshots on JQ and her Suzu cleanses JQ bleed and ult.
In defense of Bastion vs Junker, its grenade can damage and create space(after getting hooked with the knife), also ironclad can mitigate the bleeding effect very well.
Cant get out of it. Litterally went down in rank after 7 wins and a single loss. I was a gold plat player in ow1, but when i finished placements in ow2, i got silver 1, so, i tought ill just play some more and hopefully win and get a better placements, which was when i got 7 wins and 1 loss, and went down to bronze 4. 😂 its so dumb.
@@emilwillumsen3180 Hmm, so are you saying your account was flagged by blizzard specifically to piss you off ? Cause i'm in the exact same situation, except that when i do 7/1 i go up 3 divisions, instead of losing one. Also, sarcasm, i'm simply calling bs on what you said. Probably didnt go 7/1.
@@evoknz well according to him he went 7-1 and went down around 9 tiers, which isn't possible. so definitely cap. silver1, silver2, silver3, silver4, silver5, bronze1, bronze2, bronze3, bronze4. literally impossible to go down that much from one round of placements. dude probably went 1 win 70 losses
zen's discord is fantastic against orisa, for a reason other than her lack of shield and general reliance on sustain. zens discord orb has increased relative effectiveness against characters with active damage mitigating abilities and passives. reductions from abilities add with each other, rather than multiply. for example, for bastion's ironclad passive, it subtracts -20% off the base 100% damage received. any other abilities can add or subtract to this sum. zen's discord orb is +25%, which would bring the bastion from 80% to 105% damage received. zen's discord is powerful against fortify because going from 60 to 85 is a bigger leap than going from 100 to 125, even if they both add +25. in exact terms, discord orb is x1.67 more effective against a target with fortify. in the best case scenario, when discord is against nano or breather, discord's effectiveness goes up to x2.
As a new player who started to play 2 weeks after the release of Overwatch 2, I feel like lists like these are just noob traps for new players like me who are trying to learn and catch up on the game's meta.
I don’t even play overwatch, but seeing junkrat, a person who’s only attacks are projectiles, as a counter to the tank who has an ability to specifically delete projectiles, just lets even me know this is stupid
i saw this list a week or so ago and saved it to my phone, figure id look at it later. it reeks with "i just started in overwatch 2 and havent gotten to comp yet" vibes
The one who made this was Ollie Toms. Probably never actually played O1/O2 and just saw which character would LOOK like they would counter the hero from just apearances alone and with no clue what abilities do what or who is and isn't meta.
I love to see Flat Counter Chart cause I always have a hard time knowing who to play to counter certain hero's since it is a fast paced game and I can't think that fast.
@HappySquid that and just altering your playstyle when certain heroes are on the other team is just as or probably better than counter picking to a hero you’re not as comfortable on. Besides, people literally one trick a hero and still manage to win games and climb since they’ve developed a flexible playstyle where they make the one hero they’re good at work against most picks on the enemy team. Overwatch is a game where gamesense and gameknowledge matters more than aim for climbing imo.
First time I saw the image on reddit I rolled my eyes. There is also another few big caveats which is how people play individual heroes, the map, and the team supporting that person. I've played since OW1 beta, and from day one of TF2, and what I've learned is if you want to rank up, know the field at play. Know the people, know the maps, know the strategies at play. But at the end of the day there is never a single "If this then this".
I’m like 90% sure there’s one of those generic overwatch tips that says something along the lines of using Pharas gun to out range the turret. Used to see it when the game first came out lol.
echo is good against torb tbf, peak his turret for a milisecond and destroy it with stickies and then you can just duel him out of the range he can realistically aim at you
@@jyrlan2596 I can understand Junk but I feel like Torb has the range to deal with them. I know he’s not hitscan but a good torb should be able to land a couple shots which is really all you need. I don’t realistically see fliers dodging both amped torb shots + turret shots. I’m not necessarily saying he counters them by any means but the matchup isn’t as one-sided as you may think. I do get where you’re coming from though, especially with torb ult not really having a purpose against fliers and it’s certainly harder to hit fliers with primary fire than it is to hit ground level enemies. Junk though I honestly don’t know why anyone would play him into fliers, ever
As a silver console player myself I can kinda see where they're coming from, but thinking that pharah is actually broken and not a skill issue is also interesting
I can't help but think hog countering dva is following a chain of logic like "He has a strong shotgun type weapon, and dva is a big round ball of a hitbox" basically putting it in a 1v1 scenario. But maybe that's giving too much credit. things like mcree not countering phara are very... odd decisions, and they might just have no idea what they're talking about.
Bastion is used as a counter to Zarya in low elo but not in the sense that you think. You just wait until she’s used her first bubble and then just burst her down and pop the second bubble since it only has 200 hp anyway
What happens when they Zarya doesn't immediately use both bubbles though? cooldown is pretty short and so if you don't use them both immediately you can almost have your first back by the time you use the second. Cooldown management is a part of the game too
@@javianbrown8627 If they're not using their bubble, shoot them... It's not your problem what their cooldown management is. No bubble? Shoot. Second bubble? Shoot. Live your dreams 😁
@@javianbrown8627 thats why you force out the second one, you make her either not use her bubbles, or try to contest you by bubbling her team mates and having them dive you. either way she leaves herself more vulnerable than most other heroes would be able to leave her. she doesnt really have a good dps counter right now so its the best we’ve really got
Isn't junkrat also a viable counter for Doomfist? If he gets in the junkrat trap he's DUST when he dives into the team. Idk, maybe it's just for me that this happens a lot but I like to destroy dooms' confidence when I hear that trap noise lol
Doom is kinda like Tracer in that everyone kills them easily, but that's why Tracer and Doom are like more skill-based heroes coz with the right hands they can demolish everyone.
The second i saw no reaper against winston I was out. I have almost never played a game where I've popped on winston and the enemy has not switched to Reaper. It's the universally known counter.
hog countering dva ? i think they thought that because of hook being able to penetrate dm but that doesn’t matter when she denies one shots and she wont be dying to a one shot her self
If the hog actually aimed for your face (ain't hard with that centered critbox) that's like half or more of your health gone and then if any other person on their team shoots you as you're being reeled in, bye bye mech. If you play Dva into a hog, you really have to be wary on not getting hooked yourself.
Sigma being countered by reaper and orisa is actually insane, the amount of mags I’ve eaten and abilities I’ve canceled from the both and is unlimited.
Ikr, like good god a Boulder, and a few primary, can take out a Reaper or make him use Wraith. And Reaper ult? Either Shield, Succ, or both and you're still gonna be alive right after
The fact that brig was included so little truly makes me sad. She can duel most tanks, practically instakill most dps and supports if you chain her abilities but no bro think she’s only useful against genii and tracer lmao
It really bothers me that this was heavily floating around cause I really don't know a whole lot about the game and I'm trying to get better so I considered these match ups as options. Glad I found someone who knows better calling it out, thanks man.
fun fact about moira, her heal orb can out heal winstons primary weapon which is something i learned and it was funny to me cause i was just standing there and letting him blast me
I think the dumbest part of this whole, list is that the in- lore counter to Doomfist, who also has a direct counter to every move in game is not on his counter list. In lore, Orisa was designed to exploit the weaknesses of Doomfist which is reflected perfectly in their changes for OW2. Biggest red flag I've ever seen.
Who do I Attack? - Who do I pressure and take away space from when I want to make a play? Who do I Block? Who do I check and hold space against when they try to make a play? Who do I Escape from? Who do I have no chance of fighting so I need to give them space to avoid dieing? Who do I ignore? Who isn't really worth my time and resource? This is only an option when your other team can check these opponents
Would you be interested in doing a Matchup Chart video similar to how Super Smash Bros players do for how a character compares positive or negative against another? At least for the tanks.
Inaccurate, they need to put the whole overwatch roster next to doomfist as counters
this is untrue, doomfist does not counter doomfist - only marginally disadvantaged
Unless you are zbra and you can use totally intended techniques
At least when you play total mayhem he gets to be the only counter to invincible zarya, not because he can kill her, no one can do that, but because he can punch her off the obj faster than she can walk back to it.
@@alricfremanosrs1509 This is legitimately hilarious to think about.
@@alricfremanosrs1509 Total Mayhem I just go Rein and pin Zarya nonstop, if there's a ledge I'm a happy boy
Sombra being “countered” by widow might be the most bizarre take I’ve seen.
@@lunacy5510 disclaimer, Im no pro, but it does seem like the matchup has shifted a lot yeah. Hack being easier to get off plus the damage boost is just lethal af if you get them in awkward situations.
probably because of the trap being able to break her out of stealth
They probably were thinking of mine and sights? But only being able to force sombra to play scared once every couple of fights doesn't make it a counter...
Hanzo, on the other hand, is a valid take. Doesn't lose too much if he gets hacked, still has 1-shot potential. Is much more mobile/aware than Widow. And can spotcheck with Sonic better/more often than Widow can with Mine/sights
I'm stll confused over widow beng a sojourn counter but sojourn also being a widow counter...Something's very wrong with this list.
Honestly when I play widow I need to be aware of sombra hunting me but widow has the tools to deal with her. Revealing her is pretty easy and you can grapple to reposition to a spot where you have the advantage. And hot take but their primary fires so similar damage if just spraying and praying, but widow happens to have the potential to one shot. Widow has the advantage at range, has a tool to easily get that range, and her venom mine makes it harder for sombra to sneak up on widow compared to sneaking up on other characters. Not to mention widow ult, counter sombra even without being anywhere near her. Fighting Sombra isn’t super fun but all sombra can do is waste her time trying to find and fight widow. Before Sombra gets to widow, Widow can spend her time actually taking out the enemy team, and just being aware that Sombra will come in for a 1v1 soon. Then widow simply takes the 1v1 and/or repositions. Maybe I just fight trash sombra’s but I’d rather be the widowmaker in that situation. It’s more difficult as widowmaker to deal with a genji or reaper than a sombra
the saddest thing about this chart is that it must’ve taken so much time to go through every character for it to be so catastrophically wrong😭
Doesnt take effort to be wrong when it comes to OW2 hot takes
@@SuperLifestreamtrue 💀
The person who made it is basically brand new.
Kinda surprised reaper wasn't listed as a counter to Winston.
Yeah and they didn't put Sombra as a Doom counter
@@seabass3818 As a Sombra main, if you ask me to 1v1 any hero, Doom is my first pick.
The lore counter.
@@FueledFromFiction I dunno, Zenn coming out of spawn is just 12% ult charge rn.
As a Reaper main, I look at Winston and see nothing but an ult battery
Rein countering Widow has got be a crime or something wtf
I think the logic is supposedly that if Widow wants picks and your team are behind your shield you are countered but its more of a bandaid than an actual counter lol. Rein can't just be a shield bot.
@@BushSage right, and if he is a shield bot, widow already neutralized the tank
@@BushSage what kills me is that even by the logic of "shield blocks sightlines", sig >>> rein b/c the barrier can be deployed at any angle and at any range. still not a counter, but that just shows how idiotic this chart is
I have been in situations where as rein I have dueled widow and that was because I dominated enemy rein to aim at widow with fire strike to help my struggling sniper. Only because I had no other better target. And I could get angle safe and call out her movements for my Lucio or genji to chase. And get the supports to look away from the enemy reinhardt so I can blow up the reinhardt.
*edit* also widow hard scopes so random fire strike or spear hits way more than it should.
But no way is rein good against widow
Notice how ashe is also "countered" by rein. I think they're under the logic that shields block snipers
I would honestly love to see Flats make his own version of this, maybe 2-3 strong picks against each hero. I learn so much from his ranting, its glorious. :)
@Charly anything that stops new players from using this chart, they could be used as building blocks
@Charly I think if there's an enemy player who is extremely good and is destroying your whole team, it'd probably be good to have a chart on hand to quickly let you know what characters the enemy might have more trouble with. I've had several times where we've just been destroyed by a particularly good player, and not had any idea who to pick. We were getting killed by a really good pharah, and our dps' switched to hanzo and soldier 76, and we lost the game because they weren't able to hit the pharah, and next game we saw a bastion and mcree counter our pharah, and realized that those characters are easier to hit pharah with.
I remember using basic counter charts in ow1 and it helped me a lot. I googled a chart recently and this is the best result on Google images. if I was slightly less familiar with the game he would've 100% messed me up, but I managed to realize they made no sense.
context: I'm a gold casual player who only plays to enjoy the game
@Charly Okay, but if you have no idea who to switch to, is using a chart worse than just getting steamrolled and losing?
@Charly You really like thinking about this in black and white terms. Whether or not it will provide any beneficial impact at all seems irrelevant to you, you just think that because it is not a one-stop shop solution, it is worthless and nobody should use it. How is a player supposed to look at the entire roster and come to the conclusion of what hero they should pick if they're struggling with being attacked by a genji, for example? They have no fucking clue unless someone tells them something like 'this character has an easier time with dealing with flankers". I myself have no clue what I would pick in that situation, because I haven't been in that situation yet. And as soon as I am, you know the first thing I'm doing is alt tabbing and looking up what counters genji. I don't care if it's not 'meta' to not coordinate your character picks with your team, but do you REALLY think that me being slightly non-optimal in terms of team composition is going to matter if I'm at the level where I don't know which characters are good against what?
making every hero have 4 counters is the first thing i noticed thats braindead lol i hope whoever made this sees this video.
Poor guy probably spent at least a couple hours making this chart. I'll at least give them props for effort and a decent visual design.
@@Zekegedd has talent for designing and organizing... Not really for thinking up what counters what in OW lol
@@Zekegedd releasing bad information to the world, especially when nicely presented is a BIG garbage move.
@@thierryfaquet7405 let's just hope it's not intentionally and he's just a low rank Player trying to contribute to the community lol
@@SMKurama that's how I choose to take it
13:15 I’d say it’s fair to consider Moira’s fade better than Kiriko’s teleport as an escape for one reason, and that’s flexibility. Kiriko depends on having a teammate in a decent position to escape to, Moira can just woosh off to Narnia any time she feels like it.
Honestly, kiriko's tp is entirely useless when half ur team is dead/across the map whereas with moira she goes bloop I'm gone
@@ClorxxKage Ya know, I think it just might be the case that tp is worse than fade cuz what if your teammates aren’t anywhere nearby. Moira can disappear at any moment.
With Kiriko, a lot of times you'll just be teleporting out of a bad position, to an even worse one because (for me) almost all the time my closest teammate is either in a fight too, or running away from one while being shot at. Your survival is dependent on someone else more than a Moira fade. It's good for aiding your team instead of running away, while Moira fade is good for both. Not to mention, it's fun to jump out of fade.
@@ClorxxKageI've had cases of getting hooked while starting a to so it doesn't "feel" reliable like moria
i love that doomfist, a character maybe best known for having aggressively “i’ll actively keep you from playing this hero” hard counters, has none of those said counters on that chart.
True, you pick Sombra & the Doom is instantly suffering from crippling depression lol
The trick with playing against doomfist is that you don't want him to switch, because if doomfist switches then they'll have a better tank.
@@jeksewnoleeray1020 every ranked match against a doomfist the play is to ignore him even if he’s on point so his team tilts against him causing someone to throw
@@jeksewnoleeray1020 6head take
As a doom main the one thing I like most about doom is to punch phara in her stupid face
Every hero is countered by Sojourn. There, I fixed the chart.
The last chart should've been 2 for every hero are Sombra and the other two are Sojourn.
And sombra... And zarya
I could fix you
@@KiePatty91 huh?
Sojourn, Orissa, Kiriko. Counters everything.
Sombra not being under the Sigma counters physically hurts me. Against a decent Sombra it's basically impossible to use your ult as Sigma! He's almost all channeled abilities!
Yes! She hacks so flipping fast that getting an ult off is nigh impossible if she’s mildly competent and present.
Also her hack just recalls your barrier instantly
Or you can be in OT and about to win with flux and they swap Sombra and run out and hack you as soon as you use it causing you lose a game by losing your game winning ult to a hack that you couldn't have stopped because she just runs out and hacks you while invisible
@@AwkwardHillbilly The counterplay is to turn off the video game and walk outside for awhile
That's really not accurate at all. I'm sorry but it's actually close to the other way around. Sigma has a deployable shield with which to shield dance. It's quite easy to deal with Sombra.
Why isnt Kiriko a counter to JQ? JQ ults or does any of her abilities, Kiriko presses one button boom gone.
yep. but they put zen as a counter instead, whose ult is nullified by JQ's ult...
she isnt even a “counter” to rein when she can cleanse his ult too
they said kiriko counters junkrat lmao.
(not even ana..)
I've figured it out. I don't think this person knows that suzu can cleanse.
edit: after this realization, it explains a LOT
@@mekacrab kiriko, is much better at fightin junk than ana, like kiriko can 2 tap any dmg dealer can immunize herself from any of the dmg and knockback, and can teleport out as soon as she sees a bomb coming towards her
ana cant really do anything against the pure burst of junk
"If u can't boop the phara as ball when she's in the Air that's a skill issue"
-my friend 2022
technically they're right
Ye becuz of him I had to learn how to boop pharas mid air
Somehow I'm doing it and it's Hilariona every time
@@poland2016 that's way too situational to be something you have to learn
@@mekacrab but I did
Unironically, Ball's ability to slingshot himself into the air, exit ball form, and shoot the Pharah up close while mid air - actively makes Ball better at helping deal with Pharah than 80% of the tank roster. As a Pharah main, whenever I pick ball I always do this and enemy Pharahs hate it xD
The hog running on the flank impression actually made me holler
What's the timestamp
Someone needs to make flats walking like hog into a gif
It was a spot on imitation of a flank hog
2:09
@Royal Messiah HA IT'S FUNNY BECAUSE FAT
NO ONE HAS EVER MADE THIS JOKE BEFORE
@Royal Messiah damn bro you got the whole squad laughing
Why ?
I now want a video where Flats chooses the heroes he plays based solely on what the list describes as their counter.
So after that hog imitation we all agree flats cosplayed as hog needs to be a subgoal.
Flats Hog at Blizzcon needs to be a thing!
If was pretty good NGL. Lmao
Let's be real, Flats would just dress like a clown and call that his Roadhog cosplay.
He doesn't need to cosplay 💀
Would be great to get a list of "counterplay" with suggested picks from Flats, so so many metal rank players don't know how to deal with certain characters and keep ramming their heads against a brick wall until they lose the game, even in high Plat
The counter in low ranks is just to be more skilled than your opponents, because character synergies barely matter when no one on your team is playing the same video game.
@@lunafoxfire Correct, but if someone is able to outplay a Plat player on any character in their role, guess what, that person climbed out of Plat a long time ago... Even though "just be a GM" is technically speaking a solution, it's not a possible one for 90% of the playerbase. Besides, that's not even what I'm talking about, I'm talking about bringing awareness, not cheats for climbing, I'm talking about having 4 people afk spam a double pocketed orisa and being unable to kill her all game, instead of just getting the rest of the team first. I would be surprised if a Diamond player could consistently 1v5 carry in Plat, you'd have to be much, much higher to pull that off
shoot them in the head, that's usually a hard counter
@@mekacrab ah, another intellectual, the "just be a GM DPS player and 1v5" argument is so boring... If you read the replies you'd know I already explained that I'm not talking about that
@@ivanfranebijelic7009 Well I never said that. All i'm saying is that it works with almost any hero and at any rank.
You: "Quick guys, we have to counter their Sombra. Let's swap to four Sombras and see what happens"
The other team about to become sixteen Sombras:
and then your team becomes 64 Sombras
what
>Doomfist can’t hit flyers
>Bap counters Doomfist
I can hear ZBRA laughing in the distance
im ngl seeing Doomfist "countered" by Echo and Pharah, im like..
>good Doomfist players who can punch mid-air and hit it have entered the chat
Yes, any one-trick can play against hard counters, but that's not the average player.
Zbra and aquamarine scare me with what they do with their respective heroes. Doomfist is weak normally but zbra really doesn’t make it look that way.
Junkrat is already really good but aquamarine just makes him more horrifying.
@@firstnamelastname9237 as a fellow Junkrat main Aquamarine and PvPx are insane and true inspiration lol and yeah ZBRA and all them one tricks scare the shot outta me too lol
@@ElsaChan597 Meanwhile, good Pharahs can see these punches coming from a mile away and know how to dodge them. One-tricking goes both ways..
Saying “ what in the silver” to a beginner counter chart is something
The fact Baptiste is apparently the counter to nothing while having a “no damage” button is CRAZY
homie literally removes junkrat ult
They put him as a counter to Cassidy. I honestly have no idea why. What, is High Noon really a huge problem for the guy who made this? That's the only rationale I can think of that makes Bap uniquely able to beat Cassidy more than any other character, and that's about as flimsy as it gets.
@@kevingriffith6011 I guess you could also save someone/yourself from the bs that is being stuck and shot once
@@exzyyd392 Honestly I don't think immortality is fast enough for that.
@@kevingriffith6011 His instant heal regenerative field is though
This list feels like it was made by someone who plays whenever friends are on. They don't really learn characters they just play what they like and consider anyone that kills their main "hard counters."
Question: do you still play Overwatch?
I would like to note that I generally pick zen against widow. Not because it's a counter, but because I like dueling widows
Sometimes if your DPS won't take the duel you gotta take it yourself.
The feeling of deleting the widow with volley is one of the best ones there is
As a support main that plays zen and ana, I'm left to deal with at least 1 of the dps most of the time while my dps pointlessly tickle the tank getting infinite heals.
The way he was talking about Dva DMing projectiles just made me imagine that she literally eats them when she DMs. I'm cracking myself up just imagining that she's snatching them up like she has a frog tongue and consuming them.
Brings a new meaning to Dva eating Zenyatta's balls
Wtf man
I thought like Kirby lol
my favorite one wasnt even discussed, they had Widow as a counter for Sombra. Lol Widow might gain a few seconds of reprieve from getting mugged for her lunch money when she pops her ult.
Whoa whoa whoa back the fuck.
JUNKRAT is a Sombra counter on the chart.
Rat is the one DPS I’m happy to see when locking Sombra. What is this guy smoking?
im guessing hits cause of the mine? + her ult, but ye hardly a counter usually the other way around. if anything. though i guess she can also one tap her? so she cant teleport out intime?
If widow is in a spot where sombra can only reach her from a couple directions, widow blocks off one direction with venom mine. The other direction widow is fully aware that a sombra will appear soon. The most a sombra can do is occasionally cause the widow to stop mowing down your team to mow you down instead. Widow is not locked into sniper fire, she can spray a few primary fire bullets out near her every now and then to try to catch sombra. She can also reposition with her grapple. Sombra will spend most of the game trying to find widow and trying to avoid the venom mine/occasionally shots fired. When sombra does fight widow, you either coinflip since your close range automatic weapons do similar damage anyways, or pray you don’t get one shot by a widow who’s capable of landing close range sniper headshots. Even Genji does a better job at ruining widows day. If the widow knows what sombra does it’s not that difficult to deal with sombra
They put Widow as a counter to everybody. She shows up 16 times on this list, which is a lot compared to Ashe, who didn't show up once.
@@kevingriffith6011 Ashe didn't even show up on Phara. That guy thinks that Hanzo has a better time against Phara. Lmao.
Overwatch 2: The Return of Bad Advice
As a support player who plays a ton of Ana and Zen, seeing Zen next to Zarya and Ana next to Genji sent me to a dark place. Zen apparently counters a hero who's primary ability removes discord orbs. And the genji one is the most backwards ass thing. Genji dives the hell out of Ana, is very hard to hit with sleep and is capable of deflecting all her abilities.
As a DVa main, I want to be "countered" by Junk every match! lol
and please tell the symms i counter them so they'll be scared and switch!
All I leaned from this video is Sojourn counters nearly everything.. for anything else there is Zarya.
sojourn = death from mid range
zaraya = getting walked down then death
sombra = extreme annoyance then death
well yeah they are s+ currently
@@alexo_pog they are op tier
How to anti counter as rein: WAIT FOR THE RELOAD its amazing how often I don’t see that happen
The reveal of the heroes countering their counters was the icing on the cake
just noticed lucio shows up as a counter exactly once on this chart. and its against sojourn. what.
He doesn't really hard counter anyone, I guess widow maybe, but still not guaranteed.
I love that lucio's counters were all the heroes that dont need to have good aim to skillfully kill him
You know it's a bronze player that made this list because of how many times you see junkrat.
look at the leader boards now and come back to reply lol
@@HelloMrDino what is that supposed to mean ? Junkrat is still not a counter to most picks
@@mekacrab "junkrat is still not a counter to most picks".....well as a junk main i can easily say ....he counters everyone, you just have to know how the only challenging ones are zarya torb bastion and echo cause her flying isnt as predictable as pharahs movement.....
@@HelloMrDino being able to kill someone =/= counter someone
I wish he would've gone through the whole list.
If he didn't get an aneurysm, he would definitely get it now
i wish he would've ignored it since it's a waste of time + stupid. make your own list if you think there's a better list to make, or realize there are no "counters" in OW2, just strengths and weaknesses which all depend on your comp and the map mode.
@@frottery It's not a waste of time, it's content for him.
@@frottery then leave if you don’t like it
The fact that they didn’t put Kiriko a counter for JQ shows you how much they understand about the game. She can just sit back and hit headshots on JQ and her Suzu cleanses JQ bleed and ult.
In defense of Bastion vs Junker, its grenade can damage and create space(after getting hooked with the knife), also ironclad can mitigate the bleeding effect very well.
the bad thing about overwatch becoming popular again is you got these bronze 5 peak players making stupid tierlists like this
the sky is falling
Cant get out of it. Litterally went down in rank after 7 wins and a single loss. I was a gold plat player in ow1, but when i finished placements in ow2, i got silver 1, so, i tought ill just play some more and hopefully win and get a better placements, which was when i got 7 wins and 1 loss, and went down to bronze 4. 😂 its so dumb.
@@emilwillumsen3180 Hmm, so are you saying your account was flagged by blizzard specifically to piss you off ? Cause i'm in the exact same situation, except that when i do 7/1 i go up 3 divisions, instead of losing one.
Also, sarcasm, i'm simply calling bs on what you said. Probably didnt go 7/1.
How is that a bad thing? That's hilarious.
@@evoknz well according to him he went 7-1 and went down around 9 tiers, which isn't possible. so definitely cap. silver1, silver2, silver3, silver4, silver5, bronze1, bronze2, bronze3, bronze4. literally impossible to go down that much from one round of placements. dude probably went 1 win 70 losses
this guy in every match to his Pharah: "bro you counter everyone on their team how are they all not dead?"
I'm the one responsible for the orange font on the drop timer 😂 we were all annoying flats about it. Love ya man keep up the good work!!
zen's discord is fantastic against orisa, for a reason other than her lack of shield and general reliance on sustain. zens discord orb has increased relative effectiveness against characters with active damage mitigating abilities and passives.
reductions from abilities add with each other, rather than multiply. for example, for bastion's ironclad passive, it subtracts -20% off the base 100% damage received. any other abilities can add or subtract to this sum. zen's discord orb is +25%, which would bring the bastion from 80% to 105% damage received.
zen's discord is powerful against fortify because going from 60 to 85 is a bigger leap than going from 100 to 125, even if they both add +25. in exact terms, discord orb is x1.67 more effective against a target with fortify. in the best case scenario, when discord is against nano or breather, discord's effectiveness goes up to x2.
I am actually incredibly impressed at how accurately you managed to demonstrate the sound of a Roadhog running :P
There are so many heroes that apparently counter each other, like widow and sojourn lol
I seriously got so excited when I saw this video. Gold content
As someone who doesn't play the game that well, this is eye-opening
As a new player who started to play 2 weeks after the release of Overwatch 2, I feel like lists like these are just noob traps for new players like me who are trying to learn and catch up on the game's meta.
As Flats somewhat mentioned the reality is the "counter" is being a better player. Legitimately just get better at the game and you'll be fine.
I don’t even play overwatch, but seeing junkrat, a person who’s only attacks are projectiles, as a counter to the tank who has an ability to specifically delete projectiles, just lets even me know this is stupid
Would love to see an actual accurate one
Hog works well against dva in ow1 since his hook combo breaks mech but with dva's hp buff and ana throw nades at you, it no longer works.
The mental image of Zarya absorbing the punch from Doomfist like iron man absorbing Thor's lightning and blast him with her beam
I thought for sure I was gonna get thru the video without laughing, then 21:11 happened 🤣
So I was looking at Winston and was in awe when I didn't find reaper
People should not speak about stuff they are not educated on cause damn it is some serious second hand embarrassment
i saw this list a week or so ago and saved it to my phone, figure id look at it later. it reeks with "i just started in overwatch 2 and havent gotten to comp yet" vibes
This is a great chart for bronze to gold. I spent many years there and know when I see one
The one who made this was Ollie Toms. Probably never actually played O1/O2 and just saw which character would LOOK like they would counter the hero from just apearances alone and with no clue what abilities do what or who is and isn't meta.
I love to see Flat Counter Chart cause I always have a hard time knowing who to play to counter certain hero's since it is a fast paced game and I can't think that fast.
@HappySquid also skill level with that character and how you play it
If there's an EchoPharahMercy comp, *go Junkrat* ! This was a junk tip, or a Junk tip, or both.
@HappySquid ^^^^^^^^^^^
@HappySquid that and just altering your playstyle when certain heroes are on the other team is just as or probably better than counter picking to a hero you’re not as comfortable on. Besides, people literally one trick a hero and still manage to win games and climb since they’ve developed a flexible playstyle where they make the one hero they’re good at work against most picks on the enemy team.
Overwatch is a game where gamesense and gameknowledge matters more than aim for climbing imo.
@@prototypeow now all we need is a flying tank... can we give roadhog wings?
2:11 10/10 cosplay and impression
First time I saw the image on reddit I rolled my eyes.
There is also another few big caveats which is how people play individual heroes, the map, and the team supporting that person.
I've played since OW1 beta, and from day one of TF2, and what I've learned is if you want to rank up, know the field at play. Know the people, know the maps, know the strategies at play. But at the end of the day there is never a single "If this then this".
None of those supposed Moira "counters" are even counters. And the fact that Dva isn't there is mind numbing.
The fact that they listed pharah and echo as counters to torb is also quite something
They probably thought "Oh they can shoot the turret beyond its range" bloody turret can snipe like 200+ ft it's insane
I’m like 90% sure there’s one of those generic overwatch tips that says something along the lines of using Pharas gun to out range the turret. Used to see it when the game first came out lol.
they are tho
echo is good against torb tbf, peak his turret for a milisecond and destroy it with stickies and then you can just duel him out of the range he can realistically aim at you
@@jyrlan2596 I can understand Junk but I feel like Torb has the range to deal with them. I know he’s not hitscan but a good torb should be able to land a couple shots which is really all you need. I don’t realistically see fliers dodging both amped torb shots + turret shots. I’m not necessarily saying he counters them by any means but the matchup isn’t as one-sided as you may think. I do get where you’re coming from though, especially with torb ult not really having a purpose against fliers and it’s certainly harder to hit fliers with primary fire than it is to hit ground level enemies. Junk though I honestly don’t know why anyone would play him into fliers, ever
Sojourn counters - Widow
Widow counters - Sojourn
*Confused unga bunga*
As a silver console player myself I can kinda see where they're coming from, but thinking that pharah is actually broken and not a skill issue is also interesting
I can't help but think hog countering dva is following a chain of logic like "He has a strong shotgun type weapon, and dva is a big round ball of a hitbox" basically putting it in a 1v1 scenario.
But maybe that's giving too much credit. things like mcree not countering phara are very... odd decisions, and they might just have no idea what they're talking about.
Bastion is used as a counter to Zarya in low elo but not in the sense that you think. You just wait until she’s used her first bubble and then just burst her down and pop the second bubble since it only has 200 hp anyway
i thought this was how bastion was played in normally played even in high ranks now? was this video recorded pre bastion unban?
@@Koozul yeah same.
What happens when they Zarya doesn't immediately use both bubbles though? cooldown is pretty short and so if you don't use them both immediately you can almost have your first back by the time you use the second. Cooldown management is a part of the game too
@@javianbrown8627 If they're not using their bubble, shoot them... It's not your problem what their cooldown management is. No bubble? Shoot. Second bubble? Shoot. Live your dreams 😁
@@javianbrown8627 thats why you force out the second one, you make her either not use her bubbles, or try to contest you by bubbling her team mates and having them dive you. either way she leaves herself more vulnerable than most other heroes would be able to leave her. she doesnt really have a good dps counter right now so its the best we’ve really got
The next Slap Fight title card: Doomfist v Doomfist, no medics will be standing by
Isn't junkrat also a viable counter for Doomfist? If he gets in the junkrat trap he's DUST when he dives into the team. Idk, maybe it's just for me that this happens a lot but I like to destroy dooms' confidence when I hear that trap noise lol
Doom has so many counters that Junk isn't even high on the list. Imo he is not reaaly a counter, but a nice option against him, similar to reaper.
Doom is kinda like Tracer in that everyone kills them easily, but that's why Tracer and Doom are like more skill-based heroes coz with the right hands they can demolish everyone.
The second i saw no reaper against winston I was out. I have almost never played a game where I've popped on winston and the enemy has not switched to Reaper. It's the universally known counter.
hog countering dva ? i think they thought that because of hook being able to penetrate dm but that doesn’t matter when she denies one shots and she wont be dying to a one shot her self
If the hog actually aimed for your face (ain't hard with that centered critbox) that's like half or more of your health gone and then if any other person on their team shoots you as you're being reeled in, bye bye mech. If you play Dva into a hog, you really have to be wary on not getting hooked yourself.
2:25 THIS PART MADE ME REALIZE FLATS HAS 2 VOICES
He has his high pitch annoyed voice
And he has his normal voice
The way it transitions is CRAZY
Sombra also countering Doom immensely
I think the list confused checks with counters. They're on the same boat but they're not the same.
Imagine how furious Flats got when he saw that Widow is in fact a Sombra counter, not the other way around
Sigma being countered by reaper and orisa is actually insane, the amount of mags I’ve eaten and abilities I’ve canceled from the both and is unlimited.
Yeah same. I mean if you have no abilities and your shield is 0 hp than sure reaper will kill you but that's true of anyone.
Ikr, like good god a Boulder, and a few primary, can take out a Reaper or make him use Wraith. And Reaper ult? Either Shield, Succ, or both and you're still gonna be alive right after
Well I hope to see more throwing pharahs on the enemy team now. Makes my life easier.
Flats enters the nexus of the universe. Everything is countered by everything.
Was going to say, "this seems like a low-elo console player made it". Then Flats went and said it lol.
I had to unlearn everything Stylosa tried to teach me.
You know what also has a maximum damage tanking flats, ORISAS HEALTH when she gets pocketed by both healers and uses her cooldowns
you did not just do a fucking reallive hog walking impression LOL
The fact that brig was included so little truly makes me sad. She can duel most tanks, practically instakill most dps and supports if you chain her abilities but no bro think she’s only useful against genii and tracer lmao
One of your best videos, laughing all the way through and the end killed me 😂
I feel bad to all the new player picking pharah in quick play & wondering why they die so fast after looking at this chart 💀
Ive seen this stupid image in basically every single ow2 thread on twitter and it may be the worst advice I have ever seen in overwatch history
got here within seconds, lets go
This should have been a main video, absolutely hilarious
It really bothers me that this was heavily floating around cause I really don't know a whole lot about the game and I'm trying to get better so I considered these match ups as options. Glad I found someone who knows better calling it out, thanks man.
fun fact about moira, her heal orb can out heal winstons primary weapon which is something i learned and it was funny to me cause i was just standing there and letting him blast me
“like a roomba”. that’s the most accurate thing
Sojourn and Widow countering each other has got to be the magnum opus of this list
the jump button is a hard counter to doomfist
the game sound is a hard counter to reaper
@@xLiam0 yeah, he sounds like a bipedal tank
The way you said martyrdom just made me think of Marty Scorsese in leather
I think the dumbest part of this whole, list is that the in- lore counter to Doomfist, who also has a direct counter to every move in game is not on his counter list. In lore, Orisa was designed to exploit the weaknesses of Doomfist which is reflected perfectly in their changes for OW2. Biggest red flag I've ever seen.
I saw this list a while back and just laughed so hard
Who do I Attack? - Who do I pressure and take away space from when I want to make a play?
Who do I Block? Who do I check and hold space against when they try to make a play?
Who do I Escape from? Who do I have no chance of fighting so I need to give them space to avoid dieing?
Who do I ignore? Who isn't really worth my time and resource? This is only an option when your other team can check these opponents
Would you be interested in doing a Matchup Chart video similar to how Super Smash Bros players do for how a character compares positive or negative against another?
At least for the tanks.
2:07 “she can fucking fly” I died bro lol
15:00 I love when pharahs think that. They look funny when they flee from a flying machine gun weilding hamster
@Flats you should do a counters guide. I learnt a lot from your analysis! :)