The World Design of Metroid Prime 2: Echoes | Boss Keys
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 มิ.ย. 2024
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Two years after Metroid Prime, Retro is back with an all-new game. Prime 2 is both loved and loathed in equal measure by fans - but let's take a close look at its world design to see what it can tell us about making Metroidvanias.
Contribute translated subtitles - amara.org/v/C3BEN/ - เกม
13:30
How could you crush my metroid prime pinball hopes and dreams like that
Didn't just crush them. He teased them first.
Shoot a beam at him.
Oh wait
We better get that Metroid Prime Pinball vid or I'm gonna blow my top
Yes I must know how the pinball tables are designed. How will I know otherwise?
*spinning top
Came here to say this.
Began the burgeoning pinballvania genre, I hope we get to see a Yoku's Island Express on here too
I was going to say that as well.
I actually really liked the "steal dark generator power, travel to light world, power light world generator" aspect, including the backtracking. While fleeing the dark world with the stolen energy, it feels like the area is collapsing due to the new red tint, and enemies come swarming at you, like they know you're attempting to escape. It's so TENSE as you try to get the heck out of there.
Then when you make it back to Aether itself, you're like "hell yeah, I'm home" and that march back to the light world temple to install the power is the TRUE victory lap.
Kinda like an escape sequence from the classic Metroid games, only without an explicit timer until the very end.
For sure, feels oddly rewarding to travel back to and return the energy yourself, and to travel back to Umos. You get to see the light have an effect on the area as you leave.
Oh man what a good description. I love Prime 2, when I do a playthrough I usually end up having nightmares where I'm stuck in the Dark World and I feel that very tension you're describing
Never had that sensation once. Was more like another confusing chore.
It'a a nuanced touch that does go a long way. I do wish they included more unique, scripted encounters as you were fleeing the dark world with the energy.
Prime 2 is so underrated. It has an unmatched atmosphere and soundtrack. It also has one of the greatest concept artists to ever grace the industry imo (Andrew Jones), who quit the industry immediately after working on Prime 1 and 2. The Prime games were the only games he worked on.
One day me boys, we will be here watching GMTK about Prime 4.
Only 2 or 3 years to go :/
Wamb0wneD 3000 or more
I hope my kids enjoy it.
:)
That day will be August 20, 2025
I think the "victory lap" at the end is there to make you fully enjoy the full kit you have at that point. It make you think "oh! that part was hard when i did not have X" feeling more powerfull and accomplished, showing you all the work you did to get where you are.
Plus, it allows them to put collectibles that require endgame gear in starter areas, so that you might see them and go "Ooo, can't wait to come back and crack that open." Yeah, you can technically do that without the victory lap, but you'd have likely forgotten about them by that point.
Sure, but there are better ways to handle a victory lap than just making players do a less interesting thing in these familiar areas. The fact no new content is really there upon revisiting suggests the game is trying to fill a bit more time with a cost effective lead up to the climax. It's not bad or unfun, but it is uninspired.
Okay, but you're gonna do a full episode on Prime Pinball anyway, right?
No
0:38 Teasing us with a hint at Hollow Knight Boss Keys??
Yes, please and thank you.
I am so excited for that episode!
I would like that as well
oh god please man please
He's said that Hollow Knight would be the focus of the last episode of the second season of Boss Keys
@@princess_princess I forgot about that. Getting hype
One thing of note for the Sky Temple Keys is that the Keybearer Locations in the Light World, Correspond to the Sky Temple Keys in the Dark World. They are both in the same rooms, just in different worlds
I never made that connection neat.
well my next playthrough just got a lot faster
I'd like to add a thought to the key hunt at the end! :)
It was glossed over a bit, but that shining white suit at the end *eliminates the acidic atmosphere* .
That means, once you start the key hunt, the entirety of Dark Aether is your oyster.
You get to go around all the cursed areas you used to be too afraid or too careful to spend time in, and have an absolute friggin power trip stomping all over your enemies and reveling in the new freedom.
That being said, a key hunt is still a key hunt. Mark put it perfectly when saying the lore clues were neat, but they desperately needed to be found along the way through the three areas. Amazing video, as always!
I feel like the purpose of the Key Hunt in all of the Prime games, especially the "After you've collected everything else" part of it, is to encourage players to explore previous areas with their full arsenal to find upgrades. If you were able to immediately jump to the final boss after the Sanctuary Temple, that would give you no reason to go to the Agon Wastes and scoop up the dozen or so upgrades hidden away that require later upgrades like the Screw Attack and Power Bombs. Is it a bit artificial? Perhaps, but what are the alternatives? Having all of the collectibles in a zone be collectible with the items in that zone? Congrats, you've just made the starting zone the same puzzle fourty times. Balance the final boss around the idea the average player will have maybe half of the available pickups? Congrats, anyone who DID go around scouring the world is going to wind up wildly unchallenged. Retro studios went with an approach that, while a tad heavy handed, is totally in line with the Metroid tradition of "Now that you have everything, go scour the world for 100% completion." That's WHY collectibles are placed that you can't possibly get the first time you see them. Adding in a late-game treasure hunt to jog your memory of all of those things you might've noticed strikes me as the most sensible way of going about things, the more I think about it.
Honestly, if there's one thing I like the most about this series it's hearing your complaints and then trying to imagine the world where it was actually designed that way. Like, yeah, if you could collect all of the keys before the endgame you wouldn't have to make a lap around the game world at the end of the game... except for all of the collectibles that need your endgame gear to even be collected. And if your immediate response is "Well just remove those, then" you wind up with either a game littered with the most easy to collect collectibles ever or a game where the starting zone has, like, two energy tanks and four missiles while the last zone has a collectible density of one per every five square feet. That sounds like a nightmare.
"but what are the alternatives?" There are many alternatives.
The Super Metroid way was to loop you back around to your ship. When you return to your ship, the game opens up and you're expected/encouraged to explore wherever you like. Your recently acquired gear allows you to get to lots of new stuff in Brinstar. And since you have to work your way back to Norfair to progress anyway, you're going to explore regardless of which route you take.
The Metroid Prime method (ignoring the artifacts themselves) was to make you leave the Phazon Mines and find *two* items, in very disparate locations in the world. This encourages you to explore old areas since you have to do exactly that in order to progress.
It's also important to note how the other games handled what powerups make which items available. Super Metroid makes all items in Brinstar accessible upon acquiring the Gravity Suit, and 90% of the items in Brinstar can be found with just the stuff you get in your second trip to Norfair. In Prime 1, when the game dumps you out of the Phazon Mines to get the Plasma Beam and X-Ray visor, you are able to get *everything* that isn't in the Phazon Mines with just that gear.
Lastly, there's an even easier method: don't care. You don't *have* to force OCD on players. If the player wants to go back and scour old areas to get new stuff, that's fine. If the player wants to just progress and end the game with what they have, that's fine too.
Indeed, my main annoyance with the Echoes method is precisely that: I'm an OCD player. When the game forced me to go back to the Temple Grounds from Torvus Bog with a bunch of new gear, I took the time to go back to Agon and look for stuff. I explored on my own because that's what I wanted to go. I didn't need a late-game treasure hunt to "jog my memory" about anything; I'm playing a *Metroid game;* exploration is what it's all about.
But my early trips to Agon were a huge waste of time because... I was going to have to go back there *anyway* to get the Sky Temple keys.
Indeed, on my first playthrough, I went back to Agon and the Temple Grounds several times with newer gear, simply to explore (because again, this is a Metroid game). And then I found out I had to go back *yet again* at the very end, for a completely arbitrary reason. That felt like I was being punished for exploring, that I had wasted my time exploring on my own when I could have just waited until the game forced me back there. Why bother going back early when you're going to have to cover 80+% of the same ground to get those keys? Just get the stuff in those areas when the game forces you to.
The fact that I didn't find anything particularly of value also made exploration feel like punishment. The beam combos were all uniformly terrible powerups, using up lots of missiles and ammo for little real combat benefit.
"Like, yeah, if you could collect all of the keys before the endgame you wouldn't have to make a lap around the game world at the end of the game... except for all of the collectibles that need your endgame gear to even be collected. And if your immediate response is "Well just remove those, then" you wind up with either a game littered with the most easy to collect collectibles ever or a game where the starting zone has, like, two energy tanks and four missiles while the last zone has a collectible density of one per every five square feet. That sounds like a nightmare."
The facts of prior games do not bear this out. Prime 1 managed to do this just fine. You could walk into the Omega Pirate boss fight with almost every missile expansion and every energy tank save the one past him. And with 11 of the 12 artifacts, with the 12th one being 4 screens before the boss fight.
Super Metroid managed to do it too. There are very few items that actually *require* the Screw Attack.
So I would say that your assessment of the consequences of such changes don't jive with the facts of other games. The fact that Echoes failed to balance the Light Suit properly is evidence of its failure, not evidence of the problem being unsolvable.
@@GeneralBolas The Omega Pirate happens right before the final boss... Literally no difference with Echoes, you still need to loop around the world just before fighting him. Prime 1 was even worse.
Super Metroid did pretty well, that's true. I believe the worst case of 100% a Metroid game is zero mission. The power bomb...
@@legrandliseurtri7495 "The Omega Pirate happens right before the final boss... Literally no difference with Echoes, you still need to loop around the world just before fighting him. Prime 1 was even worse."
Here's the difference. In Prime 1, the game kicks you out of the Phazon mines to get the Plasma Beam and the X-Ray Visor. With those items, you can collect *everything in the game* with the exception of the stuff in the bottom floor of the Phazon Mines. So it is possible to take that opportunity to go and collect everything there is to collect that isn't in the Phazon Mines. If you do so, you just go kill the Omega Pirate, pick up the last key 4 rooms earlier, and then go straight to Ridley.
In Echoes, the game kicks you out of the Sanctuary Fortress to get the Power Bombs. However, there are 4-5 keys you *cannot* get yet, and there is at least one in every area of the world. So after killing Quadraxis, you have to go back to the Temple Grounds, get the Light Suit, and go through *every area in the game* before you can go fight Emperor Ing. If you explore through the areas with your Power Bombs before the Quadraxis fight, then you are *wasting your time,* as you will have to go back to all of those areas again for the key hunt.
The path in Prime 1 is "Phazon Mines->find everything->Phazon Mines->Omega Pirate->Ridley". The path in Prime 2 is "Sanctuary Fortress->Torvus Bog->don't explore everywhere->Sanctuary Fortress->Quadraxis->Light Suit->explore everywhere now->Emperor Ing".
See the difference? In Prime 1, the game tells you "go explore now, your time will not be wasted if you do" before the Omega pirate. Echoes looks like it's saying the same thing, since it kicks you out of the Fortress, but it is actually *lying to you.*
A game that lies to you is not a good game.
@@GeneralBolas 1) There is an elevator for the Power bomb thing when you return... Unlike the Ice beam, the gravity suit, the spider ball(all the way throught the space pirate base)and the x-ray visor(climbing all the way to the top phazon mine, yeah...). Which means the Power bomb comparison is completely irrelevant to the discussion, cause you still get echo visor and screw attack before quadraxis. So you were stupid to explore after the Power bombs. Not the game's fault.
2)Like I've shown in point 1, Prime 1 already forced you to go throught the map before the artifacts, while for Echoes it's almost the first time. Which makes it better.
3)That last artifact with the phazon suit is also incredibly tedious, and it makes the way to Ridley much longer than 4 rooms, since the artifact is in the exact middle of the phazon mine level 3. Only the lower sanctuary fortress sky key can compare to that level of out of the way, and at least that one is unexplored territory.
4)Omega Pirate, Ridley and Metroid Prime are all so tedious that I would prefer doing the artifact victory hunt after Omega Pirate cause my god those bosses are boring.
@@legrandliseurtri7495 "There is an elevator for the Power bomb thing when you return..." - Assuming you want to go straight back to the Sanctuary Fortress, instead of using the opportunity to explore. You know, like in a Metroid game.
"Unlike the Ice beam, the gravity suit" - I want to talk about the post-Thardus section of the game, because it's actually quite interesting from this perspective.
After Thardus, you use your newly found Spider Ball to explore and find the Ice Beam. But the way you do this is quite interesting because there are many ways to go about it.
See, Thardus's room has a back entrance that leads to an elevator to an area of Magmoor that you've never been to. This eventually leads back to old areas of Magmoor (though Spider Ball locks). You now have two choices. You can either go through the Tallon Overworld->Chozo Ruins route to get to the back area of the Ruins. Or you can go back through Magmoor to the Sun Tower area of Chozo Ruins where you first entered Magmoor. If you do the latter, you get to fight your first Chozo Ghosts and collect an artifact.
But through either path, once you get to the back area of Chozo Ruins, it's all new terrain.
After the ice beam, you have to go back to Phendrana. But the back area of Chozo Ruins has a very convenient one-way exit to a place that is right next to the crashed frigate. Which just so happens to be the place where you need the Gravity Suit. Which means that the game is cleverly designed so that you know *why* you need the Gravity Suit. You're not just looking for a thing because that's where the map says to go.
So you're traversing old terrain, but now you're doing it with a purpose. Plus, because you left Phendrana through a back entrance, you now remember that you can go through the middle entrance of Magmoor to get back to that place quickly. A place where you probably remember an ice-beam door. You're retreading old terrain, but it's a lot shorter because you know how to use the doors and passage you've opened up previously.
There is nothing in Echoes quite like that. Prime gives you tons of these shortcuts when it tells you to back-track; Echoes almost never does.
"the spider ball(all the way throught the space pirate base)" - ... maybe you mean the Thermal Visor. The Spider Ball is taken from the Thardus boss fight, which is outside of the Pirate Base in Phendrana. Also, getting the Thermal Visor causes all the Metroids to start breaking out, which makes the run though that area extremely tense and therefore different from the way it was before.
"and the x-ray visor(climbing all the way to the top phazon mine, yeah...)" - That's not where the X-Ray Visor is (it's in a remote area of Tallon Overworld, near the main entrance to the Phazon Mine). Maybe you're talking about the Grapple Beam. Which again requires traversing mostly new terrain and is therefore not just back-tracking.
"So you were stupid to explore after the Power bombs." - When a game tells me to leave an area to explore elsewhere, it is entirely reasonable to assume that it *means* to explore. Also, I am not psychic, so I can't know that there will be more powerups in the future.
"That last artifact with the phazon suit is also incredibly tedious, and it makes the way to Ridley much longer than 4 rooms, since the artifact is in the exact middle of the phazon mine level 3." - No it's not. It is exactly 5 rooms (I got the number wrong) from the Omega Pirate boss; just *go backwards*. And you're expected to remember that there was this corridor that you couldn't get to without the newly acquired Phazon Suit. Because again, it's a Metroid game, so exploring is what you're supposed to be doing.
"Like I've shown in point 1, Prime 1 already forced you to go throught the map before the artifacts, while for Echoes it's almost the first time. Which makes it better." - That is only true if you're treating the game like a linear game that becomes non-linear at the end. That is, if you're playing the game by letting your map tell you where to go next and ignoring everything else on the way to/from there.
It seems to me that your issue with Metroid Prime is that... it's a Metroid game, and you favor Echoes because it's less of a Metroid game.
The overall point I'm making here is that Prime encourages and rewards exploration. When the game forces you to leave an area, the game is not just telling you to go to point X. It encourages you to use your new gear to explore broadly, and it rewards that exploration. It provides convenient shortcuts to make backtracking easier and more digestible. And you can get most of the keys during forced exploration *before* the final bosses.
Echoes rewards a style of play where you go exactly and only where you're told, *when* you're told, and you should only explore when the game stops telling you where to go. You may prefer that, but you can't say that it's a more Metroid-like experience.
One awesome detail that I thought was the coolest thing ever in Metroid Prime 2 was the Sky Temple Keys. Not because you had to hunt them down, but because you can see them easier from Light Aether than from Dark Aether. I remember the first time I saw one in Light Aether from like a room away while walking around with the Dark Visor equipped and was wondering what the hell it was that I was seeing. It was at Torvus Bog, I just saw it there through the floor and walls, investigated it for a bit before going to Dark Torvus and realizing that I can't see it anymore, and I can't investigate the area because of the Poison Swamp that needed the Light Suit to go for. BUT, I did notice it a lot more in the light world because that caused me to start paying more attention to rooms with the Dark Visor on. It made me discover a lot of the Sky Temple Keys earlier than normal because I really wanted to know exactly what the hell that silhouette that I saw in light Aether was. Found them all without the hints. I didn't even know there were any hints to them actually, because of the Dark Silhouettes that I saw in Light Aether, I just knew that there were 9 of em.
I loved Prime 2. Actually, it feels better every time I replay it. I've always preferred Metroid to Zelda but Prime 2 to feels like the Majora's Mask to Prime 1's OoT. Took the foundation of Prime 1 and experimented with the formula. I really enjoyed the challenge in Echoes. The constant ticking away of HP and the safe zones never really bothered me as much as I appreciated what it did for the game's character. It made exploring the Dark World feel rightfully oppressive, and I enjoyed that, even if it's not an opinion shared by all.
Exploring Dark Lower Torvus actually felt suffocating with all the toxic water, underchambers, and eerie ambient soundtrack. By the time I made it back to the Light side I felt like I had escaped from drowning. I hated being down there, but I loved that I hated being down there, if that makes sense. I was impressed at the game's ability to create atmosphere, just as in the first game. Combat was stepped up too, with things like the Quadraxis battle being some of the most clever and exciting tests of in-game mechanics in a first-person game of its kind.
Love the game and I revisit it still about as often as I do with Prime 1.
I completely agree with everything you said.
If Metroid Prime had included the Screw Attack, it would be the perfect METROID game, but it sorely lacked the item that is basically the icon of the metroid saga. A staple from day one. Having the Screw Attack icon being replaced by suit upgrades felt like a backstab.
Echoes repeated the trend, but at least added a redesigned screw attack icon and brought back a Sacred power up that existed in every METROID game so far (except Prime 1 of course).
I replay Prime 1 just as much as Prime 2, but I always have more fun with 2 as the game becomes more fun each time I play. Where as Prime 1's problems just get more pronounced.
@@TonyStarkCLC I don't get the religious fervor for the Screw attack. As a Metroid fan all the screw attack means to me is just to trivialize exploration and sort of get you to the end quicker by eliminating combat and breakable blocks all together.
I will never understand why people complain about Primes lack of a relatively pointless upgrade. Though the screw attack in Prime 2 serves more useful and entertaining upgrade than all of the 2d versions
@Morph Ball true but it still a experiment in some good ways for a metroidvania style game.
Mark puts a clip of hollow knight in every boss keys episode just to destroy our hearts
GODDAMMIT I WANT IT NOW
YoungCrespo same dude, still one of my all time favourite games
Right?! TBH I don't really care about Metroid. I know it's a classic, and you can't legitimately talk about "Metroidvanias" without talking about Metroid and Castlevania, but let's be real, Hollow Knight perfected the genre. It is *the* example of what a Metroidvania in the modern era is and should be.
@@BridgetWirth It did not perfect the genre at all. Its still have flaws... I did not like map at all. Hollow knight is bit overated. Im very big fan of metroidvania and I really did not feel hollow knight at all.
Domingo Ishmael Adams nah dude while I love hollow knight to bits, like u said one of my favourite games, I think it’s still better to talk about the original classics first, then he can start talking about how modern metroidvanias like hollow knight, ori, ect. Differentiated themselves from them to stand on their own two feet instead of being simple repeats of what came before.
@@BridgetWirth If you don't care about metroid then why are you watching a video about metroid? Metroid is a far more legendary franchise then hollow knight.
"Metroid Prime Pinball-- sorry, Metroid Prime 3."
Metroid Prime Hunters would like a word.
Metroid Prime Trilogy on Switch:
Metroid Prime Hunters
Metroid Prime Pinball
Metroid Prime Federation Force
@@aggressivelymediocre350 Don't get my hopes up!
Eh...
@@aggressivelymediocre350 har har har
@@aggressivelymediocre350 Don't give them any ideas. Knowing Nintendo they would totally do that just to troll us!
I really love the aesthetic of Prime 2. I know some people prefer Prime 1, but I thought it was a bit more generic with the snow level, lava level, forrest level, etc. Prime 2 is less diverse in terms of color, but also more unique. I could go on and on about how much I love this game, but you know the major reason people love this game...?
The boss battles! (Except boost guardian.)
It is a bit dull in terms of colors, but it still uses a wide range of that small spectrum of colors, so there is a lot of blue, but there is dark/light blue, green blues, red blues, black blues, and browns too, and they correspond to each area enough to keep them distinct.
Honestly the Quadraxis fight is worth any quirk MP2E had
Echoes is actually my favorite Metroid game, but I too got stuck in same place you did, wrt the Power Bombs. I too played without the Hint System and believe it should never be necessary to avoid feeling stuck.
I very much enjoyed how Prime 2 connected every single area to each other, which meant that you were never far away from any area no matter where you were (the fact that I never used the fast-travel even once during the key hunt is a testament to how interconnected everything was).
Combining this game's ease of traversal with the first Prime's zig-zagging progression that requires you to backtrack between areas frequently would make for the Prime entry of my dreams.
Metroid prime 2 is actually my favorite gamecube game. Hope they put the trilogy on switch.
Good video!
Noteworthy about the Power Bomb detour is that there's actually a shortcut nearby back to Sanctuary Fortress after obtaining it, cutting down on unnecessary backtrack. It leads the player to a completely new part of the zone as well which is really neat. Seeker Missiles don't give you any shortcut back to Torvus Bog but they're located very close to it that one is really not even needed.
And can we all agree that Annhilator Beam is the coolest weapon ever, and it with the combination of the light suit makes the key hunt the sweetest victory lap of all time?
Still, the power bomb is just too far. Returning to Agon waste would have added variety at least. And there is an elevator too.
But the sky temple keys should have been to limited to sky temple grounds.
This is probably my favourite series on youtube right now
Actually, using the Dark Visor in the Light World will also let you see where Sky Temple Keys are located in the rooms’ Dark World analogues.
Wasn't expecting this today, good video. I remember thinking Metroid Prime 2 always felt like A Link to the Past to me when I was playing it, not only because of the Light World and Dark World mechanic but something I couldn't put my finger on back then. It doesn't help that I was playing the GBA release of A Link to the Past at the same moment back then.
2:20 that's already solved by the hint system (which is on by default), and could've been with placeable map markers as well. For example you do come across that magnet rail at 3:40 earlier on but you might've forgotten about it afterwards.
The game also could've introduced teleporting earlier to alleviate some of the backtracking.
While the execution could've been smoother in these ways, it's kinda the whole point of MVs compared to Zelda-likes to not have completely self-contained sub areas or dungeons (it still wouldn't have that since there are various upgrades to go back to though, which Zelda doesn't really do for its dungeons, only the OW).
4:30 Seeker missiles doors are actually marked though so not the best example of rewarding remembering ability gates
Oi, don't go dissing our boy Metroid Prime Pinball. It legit does stuff better than Metroid Prime
Namely it lets you collect artifacts during the game :^)
You can collect all artifacts but one in prime before beating all bosses. Normally by item hunting
You can pick Artifacts, keys, and cells easily as you play through the world. Very few require backtracking from the end of the game, namely those forcing you to have the Light Suit.
One of the coolest things about MP2 was the three narratives going on simultaneously: Federation vs Space Pirate, Ing vs Luminoth, Samus vs Dark Samus. Any room could be used to further those storylines which keeps things fresh.
Top notch video, but after all this time I don't think any of us expect anything less! Thanks, Mark!
Excellent video Mark :D ! I've never played these older games you talk so much about in Boss Keys, so it's so interesting and helpful to have you dissect/analyze them. They're full of interesting ideas but also mistakes we can learn from.
By the way, incredible thumbnails xD
Calling Metroid Prime 2 old... oof
Anyone else's hips creaking? No? Just me?
@@aritude1 haha us kids find anything pre 2010 old
@@aritude1 I might actually replay it (emulated in 1440p 16:9 if I can get a widescreen fix for it like prime 1 which I currently replay).
I'd play it first to come to your own conclusion, the prime series should not be missed.
This video is nit picky to me, it is an exploration series after all. Honestly they are so good to play
When I played this game for the first time, our crt had problems with it's red tube. This made the dark world amazingly dark, as it made purples very dark, it was almost pitch black in certain places, and the Ing's glowing eyes would appear smeared and have have a strange lens flare effect. It really gave me nightmares as a kid, but I perservered and beat the game a couple months after I got it.
I almost wish I could recreate the effect these days, haha
man you nailed what i feel about my most beloved game. I've always loved the atmosphere but something i felt was "wrong", its not just complex - its out of logic making me exploring the world and hoping to find way to go. thank you! (i still remember this game as most dark and atmospheric, and if it ever be coming to VR i will playing this to death)
This game was a big part of my childhood I love the aesthetics of this prime game especially
I think that the keys shoulded be like the "unkown power up" in zero mission, you get them during the game but you have no idea what they are untill that point of the game. Of course they could be optional and at least one of them could require to get a special power up, but the fact you have to come back to all the area after a while for all of them was the main problem I had with this game. Nevertheless, I love the Prime trilogy XD
Seeing you upload always makes my day
I love the ending to Metroid: Prime 2. After defeating the evil, a bunch of the aliens you helped out come out and bow down in gratitude, but Samus is like "Yeah, you'll get the bill in the mail. See ya."
One thing I like about the structure of this game, as well as MP1, is that you get a few items, and then face a boss. Then it repeats. And repeats. This says to me "learn to use what you've received, it'll be on the test later."
I love all these boss keys episodes. Great job man.. this one happens to be my favorite prime game, I had never been so excited for a game to come out as I was when this came.. I even bought a whole new Metroid themed silver GameCube that came with prime one so I could have my own personal system lol.. the best childhood fun
I'm surprised you didn't mention that the temple grounds itself is split up into thirds as well and that you lose the ability to backtrack through these areas at a couple points. I don't think it's as notable as the one-way door in Super Metroid's Brinstar but it does help keep the area you can explore more focused in the early game.
I remember loving the light suit it looks so damn good.
I also remember having a blast with the local multiplayer battle mode it had. That was great and I wish they bring that back in some capacity in the future.
Prime 2 on the GameCube was the first Metroid game I ever played. That's what got me into the series as a whole! I'm so glad I started before Prime 3 and Other M, because if either of those had been my introduction I never would have picked up any of the other entries
Part of the reason both Prime 1 and 2 have the "final lap" to get keys is because the ending is ranked on your ITEMS collected, not the speed you finished the game. By making you wait until you have basically all the upgrades before letting you get the keys, it allows you to have a reason to backtrack to the areas you didn't have all the abilities to explore with and collect those items. This part is partly subjective in how it feels. Yes, some people go "but then they game just stopped" while people like myself felt "now I have the powerful light suit and am at full power, but I'm grabbing more ammo/health/abilities because this upcoming battle is for the fate of the planet." The light suit, while making you IMMUNE to the corroding effects of Dark Aether and allows you to traverse Dark Aether water, becomes your ability to be MORE powerful in the dark world than the light world thanks to the light stones that recover your health while standing in them.
Yes yes yes!
I was waiting for this.
Metroid Prime 2 is my favourite Metroid game of all time!
Same here
This soundtrack, oh lord have mercy!!
It is wonderful.
Hey Mark, just want to say that the quality of the video itself is absolutely stunning. Great rhythm to the video, really nice montage of footage, quality of writing and general entertainment. These videos are for me the state of the art analysis video on youtube. Great work!
That "daunting" feeling of exploration is one of the draws of the genre.
I don't think you know what daunting means exactly.
Different strokes. I enjoy some exploration but it shouldn't feel "daunting"
Yeah, the part where you get a new item and then you have to remember where you can use it is actually great. Some people make it sound this is bad by default but it's not. The job of the developers is to make the world memorable, so that this could work.
@@gardenhead92 - daunting means that the challenge feels like it can't be accomplished, like it's way too big for you to ever be able to do. If the developers can get you feeling that, but design the challenge such that you can accomplish it, they will get a lot of people to feel a lot of accomplishment. Giving players a feeling of "i can't do this" isn't necessarily a bad thing.
As you say it depends on the audience you're aiming for, but i think that feeling of "impossible" exploration challenge and reward for beating the challenge (because the designers made it far less impossible than it feels) is a big draw to metroidvanias.
I believe his point is that in order to progress the main story you shouldn't be asked to remember a tiny little lever in the corner of a room that has no distinguishing features at all while being off the beaten path and the last time you had to pass by there was 10 hours ago. Something like that is basically only good for an easter egg or at best a small upgrade. If you HAVE to remember something it should be memorable, like the giant golden statues of the bosses some of the games have.
actually thus far in my first playthrough of the trilogy, MP2 is my favourite for its interesting take on the metroid formula, aswell as its strange systems
(Currently Beaten: MZM, MF, MP1,MP2, MoM, M)
My favorite out of the Metroid Prime Trilogy.
I'd say it is currently at least the best prime game (hopefully 4 matches it at the very least).
I honestly LOVE all of the Prime games. Can't wait for MP4.
Metroid prime 2 is the best of them all. You can't change my mind
And the desigms of the enemys and colour palette used in the game is so aesthetic for the eyes
No pinball
Always thought this was the strongest Prime game. Yes, the structure is more videogamey, but the game greatly benefits from this. And I even only get annoyed by the Seeker Missile break, I always for some reason I can't quite remember thought the power bomb part actually came quite naturally, unlike the gigantic backtrack to the X-Ray-Visor in the first Prime game.
Also, I get your point about missed potential in the puzzle design, but I think it's just enough to not confuse the player.
All in all, I think this game is the strongest because it just made thinks "better". Better, more complex morph ball passages, much more intricately designed bosses and a metroidvania map without confusing you, without making you search without a clue. As much as people love Prime 1, I don't think you can really have a frustration-free experience with it without the hint-system in a 1st playthrough. I do think that's possible in Echoes. Even if the Seeker missile part is iffy. But at least it's right where at the entrance of the bog and you don't have to cross half Magmoor Cavern with no clue.
After Super Metroid, Prime 2 is my fave game in the Metroid series, and I do believe the ideas and critiques you present here are fair. I did play through this with the hint system turned on, and I can see how the seeker- and power bombs can be annoying to find for someone who has turned it off. I have also never thought of each area as a Zelda dungeon, but that does kinda work.
Also, screw the Boost guarding, and BIG thumbs up for Quadraxis; best boss!
If you think Boost Guardian is bad normally, you should try fighting it without the Dark Suit. I think it took me at least a dozen tries.
Prime 2 is my favorite game. Takes all of what Prime 1 did well and streamlines it a lot more, giving areas that are more engaging on their own and cutting out almost all of the obnoxious back and forth that the first game had and not breaking things too much like in Prime 3. The game certainly does have some blemishes with needing to leave the area (getting the power bombs is always a bitch), but I do appreciate that revisiting areas for mandatory upgrades at least gives you an opportunity to collect more expansions. It hits a very precise balance of openness and self-containment that works just right for me, and with enemies and bosses that are fun to fight, along with my favorite story of the Prime trilogy, I still have a blast coming back to this game all these years later.
Amazing Boss Keys episode Mark, very well done. I am happy you are dissecting the Prime series as well as how you are doing it, and giving it the level of exposure and praise where it deserves it and a critical view where it demands it. Hopefully Retro learns from all of these misteps and improve Prime 4 in addition to its wonderful world design, fantastic ambience, outstanding soundtrack and clever puzzles and ultimately make the best metroid experience to date.
It's funny, I know it's not as focused but I really loved having to scour the whole planet in Prime 1 to find where to go next. Something about the way Prime 2 puts you in one area and then gives you almost everything you need to beat it within that area just doesn't feel as good to me. Because aside from the final key hunt and some extra powerups, there's basically no reason to revisit Agon Wastes after you beat the boss of it. Part of the fun to me is coming back to early areas when stronger and getting to find new things on paths you couldn't take before. It also gives a more natural reason to do some item collection. Chozo Ruins started out like this, where you got most of the items in it right at the start, but you knew there was still lots more to explore because the map continued beyond the Furnace and its spider ball track. And when you found yourself coming back for the Ice Beam, stopping to detour for a few missed items felt a lot more natural than doing so in Agon.
It's probably just me and I can't deny that you're right about how the world is more focused using this method. It probably is better overall. I just know that I really like exploring areas and backtracking. It's fun to remember those places I saw in the past and sort through my mental notes.
Though I won't defend the Power Bombs location. That one's really too far out of the way for its own good.
There are two beam combos hidden in Agon Wastes in addition to the ones you mentioned.
Echoes is actually my favourite Metroid game, maybe that's because I'm a Zelda fan in the first place. I realized the similarity between Prime 2 and the Zelda games, especially Skyward Sword, a long time ago, and I'm sure a lot of players did as well. That's part of what makes me love this game so much, along with its unique atmosphere.
Also, I think that collecting the 9 Keys is more enjoyable in Echoes than the Artifacts were in the 1st Prime game. When I got the Light Suit, I really felt invincible in the Dark Aether, and I took a lot of pleasure when I travelled back into dark areas to kick some asses and get the Keys. The opressing atmosphere that the game has all along your playthrough (and that makes me love it) vanish just before the Final Boss, and gives you that sense of accomplishement, that feeling that the entire map is your territory, and that you've mastered both Aether's and Dark Aether's challenges. At least that's how I feel about it.
I'll admit that needing the Dark Visor is a shame. During my 2nd playthrough in hard mode, I did the entire puzzle section in Agon Desert way too early (the one with the Space Pirates turrets) and couldn't get the Key because I didn't have the Visor.
I believe It's possible to actually hit those keys you can access without needing the visor though (at least I accidentally collected one on my very first play through without seeing it through the visor, although I'm not sure if I actually acquired the visor or not at that point which might be a condition to spawn them in the first place).
@@markjacobs1086 Well, I don't know if it's possible or not since I didn't try myself. Would be worth it to do a playthrough and try it again, to be sure.
I think some of the backtracking is the entire point of being a metroidvania. I think it's important to have it.
Yeah, no. This game takes it to an absurd level of tedium and boredom. It becomes unbearable.
Found out my friend subscribed to you and we ended up talking about games and your channel for hours.
These are eye-opening and completely changed the way I see certain games and how I approach what I consider(ed) to be flaws.
Thank you so much for your work
Keep these coming! I love learning why I love these games, and what makes them so iconic.
This video feels like you missed one of the most important aspects of Prime 2’s world and level design:
How the power-ups and shortcuts MASSIVELY reduce backtracking along the same routes. You start with an incredibly restricted and convoluted route, especially with all those examples of Dark Aether blocking your path. You end with basically absolute freedom and the ability to cut a straight line through the map wherever you want. Sure, this happens to some degree in every Metroid game, but Prime 2 does it to a better degree than any other 3D Metroid.
There’s a powerful feeling of growth.
Upon my second play through I realized this. Prime 2 has brilliant level design. It really doesn't get enough or any credit for it.
8:46 - So in the last episode of boss keys...
Me: What?!
8:48 - ... About prime one.
Me: phew, OK.
Yeah. The word "previous" would have been better there.
the key hunt before the final boss you reference reminds me of collecting triforce shards in windwaker
This was one of my favorite GC games as a kid... but damn I didnt even come close to finishing it I realize in retrospective 🤣
I've been waiting for this video for three months.
Awesome vid as Always, thanks for your work!
I really think Metroid Prime Hunters would make an awesome Boss Keys video ^^
Yes, so great to hear from you! Wonderful video!!!
Can i just say how much I love this series? I'm not that into gaming anymore, but level (and game) design are one of my favorite TH-cam topics. Even though I haven't played any of the Nintendo games you analyse here in Boss Keys, I still await every new episode with enthusiasm. Keep up the great work - I honestly think Game Maker's Toolkit is greatest game analyst on youtube (beside Extra Credits). Good luck.
This is my favorite one in the Prime series. I'm glad to see it has more strong points than weak ones.
I didn't really like it, I enjoyed prime 3 more, and prime 1 the most.
@@jimmyjohnjoejr Same. Echoes is garbage compared to 1 and 3.
I really think you just like Zelda rather that Metroid, which is why you prefer the Metroid with a Zelda-like structure. :P
That said, I agree about being able to pick up end game keys from the beginning
Seriously, backtracking has always been a staple of the Metroid series. Survey your surroundings and return when you get a new weapon or ability. This element helps establish an in depth understanding of the world. It makes the games much more memorable imo.
Amazing content as always. Keep up the great work.
I'd say you pretty much hit the nail in the head with your conclusion. Nice work!
I think that I finally understand the point of locking part of the key hunt behind acquisition of the Light Suit. It gives you the opportunity to experience the features of the final powerup. Prime 1 didn't really have much to the final Suit, just immunity to blue Phazon and the Phazon beam.
“Splitting the game into pieces makes the world easier to digest.”
I wonder if you’ll keep that idea intact when you cover Fusion later on
Why wouldn't he?
@@SeightJam most people criticize Fusion for being mission-based w/ self-contained levels and whatnot - the usual line is that thoroughly-designed, self-contained dungeons are for Zeldalikes and big, tenacious, interconnected maps are for Metroidvanias. This video is the first time I've heard of piecemeal level design in a Metroid game being presented as a positive instead of a negative
I personally welcomed the change when it first came out - Fusion was my favorite of the series for a while. But I've been in the minority on that for some time now, and I wonder if GMTK will be as forgiving as I was about it if this is what he has to say about Echoes
@@rosslampert2641I see what you're saying. I personally think Fusions Sectors were great for level design for the same reasons that GMTK mentioned in this vid.It was way easier to remember certain parts of the game and where things were when it was broken up into smaller maps. I also don't think Fusion is any less of a Metroidvania just because of it's linear self contained level design. It still does all the things that a good Metroidvania should imo.
SeightJam 100% agree. In fact, if it were readily available (and if it weren’t for the spoilers), I would offer it as a great introduction to the series for anyone who hasn’t played a Metroid game yet. Starting off with bite size pieces could more easily warm people up into the whole-ass meal of game maps like Super and Prime
Fusion was my first Metroid game. It was a really good starting point, and I think it does a great job of balancing the traditional Metroid formula with new ideas and more linear progression. I really like the moments where you're given a straightforward objective with a clear path, but then something goes wrong and throws you offtrack. And the way all the areas connect gets to be pretty elaborate.
Awesome video! Wish you posted more often!
Honestly, those two moments where you got lost are the two moments where I had the most fun (partially because Dark Aether was this monotonous purple zone where you sit in light beacons while the ing (and pirates) take forever to die. The Dark Suit kills the tension and leaves the drag).
I don't think it's unfair of a metroidvania to ask you to remember hundreds of rooms (or rather, the relative location of a couple dozen) since that's the whole point of the genre's appeal.
The AHA moments when you remember the place to use the new item or when your efforts to memorize temporarily blocked points are invaluable and shrinking down the effort needed to remember such points by shrinking down the chunk of the map to expect them also shrinks down the satisfaction and rewards from doing so accordingly.
When I first played Prime 2 on teh gamecube, I hated it but when I replayed hte game on the trilogy version, I looked at it under a different light and enjoyed it quite a bit to hte point I fully ultilized the dark and light beams way more than I did before, also the various petrified corpses you can find littering aether are terrifying, you can find a dead child soldier, and 2 corpse, a father and daughter dead next to each other
You are an inspiration to a rookie game designer like myself, thanks for your work
I've missed you, Boss Keys!
Great content. Keep up the great work, Mr. Brown. We all appreciate it.
It would be really interesting to see you cover La Mulana on this series, simply because of how incredibly complicated and hugely non-linear the progression map is, and how much it flies in the face of the typically linear or more sectional style of other small metroidvanias.
These videos are so painful. I just want to play Prime trilogy on my switch T_T
The sky temple keys are a big reason I prefer prime 1. Because at least a good chunk of the keys can be found at various points in the game. Prime 2 forces you along for them.
EXACTLY!
Very interesting and dense video! Now i want to play the whole Prime series again. The soundtrack alone is very unique and special and imo one of the best out there.
3:40 I always really liked these kinds of things in a game level, for me coming back to a previous level where we seemingly completed everything only to find a hidden/missed details makes the level a more lively interesting place. I think resident evil 2 does these kinds of things very well
@Mark Brown - Thank you again for your good works.
I enjoy every one of these boss keys you make, but I really just want the Hollow Knight episode!
hollow knight's stated to be the finale of season 2 so hold tight
Awesome analysis, Mark!
Protagonist: can turn into ball
Publishers: "make a pinball game!"
Thank you for addressing how this game has a hard time encouraging exploration. Honestly one of my biggest problems after replaying it recently was some of the dark world enemy design. They have stages of invulnerability that make they tedious to fight while also having great enough reach and knockback that usually make them impossible to shoulder past @_@"
yep. and on top of that, no homing beam. the ammo system encourages you to stick with the frustratingly unpleasant to use standard shot for most of the game, as if to make up for how you barely used it in the last game. Very unpleasant combat in this one.
Enemies and also bosses are just not right in this game. Learn the attack pattern, spam. No need to get good or even move around the map.
I really like the key hunts, and yes, I think that collecting the Triforce pieces in Wind Waker is the best part of that game.
While I'm no fan of collecting the Triforce pieces, I do enjoy sailing in that game so I don't find it unbearable. Mostly just a pace-killer. Good to see someone who doesn't completely hate that though.
@@LinkMarioSamus
I like it, because it really made me feel like an adventurer and treasure hunter. Collecting clues, exploring islands, caves and a ghost ship, getting treasure maps and finding the treasure. It's awesome.
@@JackOfen You forgot grinding for rupees because, despite having had to throw thousands of rupees away during the course of the game because your wallet isn't big enough to hold all the money you find, you can only afford to decrypt two of the eight Triforce charts at a time (things are better in the HD remake, but you still need to go out and make some more money)
@@JackOfen Honestly that part is pretty cool.
@@rmsgrey
Erm, no. As soon as you get the bombs you can get both wallet upgrades, so you can carry 5000 rupees. This means that you can let Tingle decipher all 8 charts in one go. And there are plenty of rupees in the cave of ordeals alone, which you have to do anyways. So that bit of criticism is completely unfounded.
It seems like you just didn't know a second wallet upgrade existed.
Can't wait for your MP3 video. That was the very first Metroid game I had ever played!
Wouldn't that just be sound with no video?
@@Alakaizer *BA DUM TSS*
Nice material. covered matters I did not realise, good job!
Stop teasing with Hollow Knight gameplay
I'm seriously hoping you make a video on it!
Hollow Knight will be the season finale, he already said it.
I get the feeling he feels like Hollow Knight is the genre at it's best (It did become one of my favorites of the genre very fast, and the genre itself I would consider my favorite game type personally)
@@SoapyKoopa Its definitely not best in the genre.
Hopefully Silksong is out by then and he does a video on that too
@@abbasaltake1414 so what do you think is the best of the genre? Honestly I find it hard to think of a game that has such a good combination of very good gameplay elements: the combat is fantastic and fluid, the platforming is top notch, exploration is really good especially combined with the best atmosphere of any game if you ask me. It has decent personalisation so you can play different ways. And let's not talk about the free content updates and stupid low price. Honestly can't think of a better game
I really don't understand why you are so upset that an exploration-focused game asks you to remember the world layout and do a "victory lap" at the end. Seems like the logical conclusion to an exploration game to me. I wasn't bothered by it at all.
It would be better to allow you to acquire those items WHILE you're doing the exploring, instead of having to wait until the final power up.
I guess it's kind of a pace breaker because when you are doing the final victory lap, you aren't getting many (if any) new upgrades, and it's all in areas you have explored before (not always bad, but can be a little repetitive). You also have to do many of the keys at the end of the game, or close to the end, meaning that you are running through previous areas with no new upgrades for a long period of time all at once. It would have been better if you could find keys as you're exploring new areas and finding new upgrades so you don't have to do them all at once, and you can often be finding upgrades while you do it. But then again I've never even played the game so...uh, don't listen to me lol
I don't think he's upset by that at all, so long as the game is upfront about intentional interconnectivity. He doesn't like the bizarre outliers when a game makes a point of keeping itself contained in a single area. And the victory lap would be fine if it unlocked a secret boss or special ending, but it shouldn't be needed to finish the game. At least that's the impression I get (and I largely agree with it, though I personally enjoy doing the victory lap even if it's forced).
I mean he explains that it kills the pacing for him. You might not have felt that but it's still a valid interpretation.
I'm not particularly bothered by the fetch quest in Prime 1, but I could definitely do without it.
very nice video! really hope since mp4's progress got restarted that retro sees this video and takes all the points into account.
Honestly I think the reason I didn't mind the Key Hunt aspect of both Prime 1 and 2 is that it matched up with my own playstyle. As a bit of a completionist, I generally like to do everything I can in a single playthrough, so right before the last boss, I tend to stop and go looking for any upgrades I missed or logbook entries I don't have. This dovetails nicely with the key hunt, which gives an in-game reason to go back to all the previous areas and poke around in all the areas and hidden rooms you couldn't access before. Sure, that interrupts the pacing of the game, but for players like me, who would've been doing that anyway, having a penultimate section of the game be implicitly dedicated to that sort of thing makes it feel much more satisfying and less like you're somehow playing the game wrong.
I dunno I think there's some merit to evaluating the game on its own instead of what people think it was meant to be. This is an atmospheric FPS that blends horror, exploration, and heroism into its own mix that - as you put it - isn't quite Metroid and isn't quite Zelda. And I think evaluating this game by the way the key path works out misses so much the game has to offer. As you said, there were lots of puzzles and things to remember with new powerups, they were just all for optional items. But just because it was for an optional item doesn't mean the game isn't rewarding and encouraging exploration.
I love this game, and I'm upset that the majority of this video felt like it was complaining about the negatives of the key path when there were some major positives related to the overall level design that were relegated for one whole sentence at the end.
Welp, we didn't get a Metroid Prime Trilogy announcement, but at least we got this! Thank you, Mark Brown.
Metroid Prime 1 and 2, I personally don't mind at the 'victory lap' of getting all the keys. Honestly it's the best change to feel like a super powered bountry hunter. Now that you have all the power ups and an awesome new suit (Phazon suit, light suit) you get to purposefully go through the game in the final leg and get all these keys, using your arsenal you spent a whole game gathering. It would be defeating to get the light suit, use it a few times, then face the final boss.
I do like that. Prime 3 always gives a God mode so you don't feel all that much more powerful.
The Powebomb Boss was the one thing that actually tripped me up. For the rest of the game, it did play itself mostly (regarding where to go and things) Although I think I have played with the help on, which points you to rooms pretty effectively and makes the playthrough rather easy.
Wether the Echoes or the Prime experience regarding progression and mindfulness of previous sights is better, is somewhat up to preference I guess. Maybe a difference in Target groups, one that can play through aa 20 hour game with very little or no big breaks that would result in memory loss regarding important bits and one that can not.
I'm looking forward to see where on the spectrum Prime 4 will fall.
I feel the need to argue the idea of making puzzles half in Light Aether and Dark Aether.
I think while it's something that could be used, there has to be a balance of how understandable that puzzle is and how you can communicate it. I think it could be argued that if you made the puzzles more like what you suggest, it would be hard to communicate that to people. It would force backtracking to portals to make sure you get the exact angles for things, or perhaps, if you had to engage a switch in Light Aether, to power a thing in Dark Aether to advance, then to depower that switch, to have say a bridge, cross a gap, it's a long puzzle, relatively speaking.
Could you do it well? Sure. Could you do it in the time frame between Metroid Prime 1 and Prime 2?
I doubt it, severely. I don't think it could be done and that if you want such a puzzle, they didn't have the time to do it.
I will pay the out of sequence item. However, I would offer the point that they are out of sequence, they also give you opportunities to go out and get the energy tanks, the ammo boosters, the missile boosts, etc etc. Sure, they don't open up new areas, but they allow you to explore longer, last longer in Dark Aether, take more gambles, because you have the health pool to take the chance. To push out into the next room, the room after that and the room after that.
I think that opportunity, that reminder that you can do that, is why these items are out of sequence. To give people the idea that, well, if you're here, why not make sure you did get everything you could. It's a cue to the player and it's a fairly overt cue at that. A cue, to be honest, I used to hunt down as much as I could.
I think the same could be argued of the nine keys, it makes you go back into the worlds, now with the added 'cheat' of the light tunnels, immunity to Dark Aether, it's a cue to say, player, go out, explore, find stuff. Do stuff, make sure you're ready.
Again, a cue I used well.
Damn getting that final tank with the Screw Attack was a real bitch. That took some damned spot on timing.
Getting the upgrades to actually do the endgame "challenge" actually made the final part of the game feel like it was going to be hard (which it actually is casually, emperor ing makes for a great progression lock for a new player & would encourage getting those upgrades).
@@markjacobs1086 Why I think there's some intent behind the seeming out of sequence events.
It's an invitation to go out and get more stuff on the way.
Could I beat Emperor Ing now without? Probably. Some of those upgrades, tanks, ammo, etc etc, just make it that much easier on some level. At least more forgiving. I feel I can be more aggressive.
So at least I can argue for them being in for a good reason.
Of the Prime trilogy echoes is my personal favorite, though it has its faults, the darker and more desperate atmosphere of the world and its characters is stellar, atleast to me it is. A couple of things that got me when I first played it were the possessed troopers since the way they shambled they scared the hell out of 9 year old me back wh. It came out and later on were the GF troopers getting overrun while that one guy was yelling for help.
Hate TH-cam for not showing me this till I checked it manually. Two hours I went without your amazing content! Thanks, (lack of) subscription notifications. Again, love your Boss Keys series/videos.
You got me with pinball, had a hearty chuckle over that