The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess' dungeon design | Boss Keys
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ม.ค. 2017
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Boss Keys is an on-going research project to analyse the level design of the dungeons in The Legend of Zelda. This time, it's the turn of 2006's Twilight Princess
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Mark, back when I first played through the yeti mansion, it took me a while to realize that I was going through a dungeon. I was kinda naive I guess, but still, the narrative had me fooled at least twice before realizing that the yeti was just making me get ingredients for his soup. I was even thinking I was going to have to fight him, because Link would be the last ingredient, but the twist with his wife was really cool. I mean, it's definetly not part of the level design, but the narrative that made that dungeon special for me.
That’s one of the reasons for why I love Twilight Princess, the story and aesthetics and atmosphere! Love it all as this game needs more love!
Just to clarify: He's not saying the dungeons are bad, he's talking about how what they lack in complex layout, they make up for in experience factor with things like the magnetic boots and the clawshot. After fan response to Wind-Waker, it is admittedly a sort of by-the-numbers-what-the-fans-want sort of game.
But what's wrong with that? They still introduced a lot of great things, such as the expanded uses for the Iron Boots(They made the iron boots cool), Zora's Tunic, Bombs, and Hookshot which encouraged the player to see what else could be done with them(I tried the Iron Boots everywhere). Yeah, the Dominion Rod and Beyblade were duds, but name a Zelda game where every item is perfect. They got rid of the waiting that Egoraptor harped on in Sequilitis with the Hidden Moves.
And despite saying it's non-linear, I still got lost in that mansion. It was a very clever idea for a dungeon as well as something new and non-traditional. Maybe not the best-executed, but the way you get the Full Heart was just adorable.
Not to mention the out-of-dungeon moments, such as raiding the Bulblin camp, the shootout in Gerudo Village. That damn bridge fight which felt so good to complete.
Perhaps is strays from the franchise's roots a bit, but it's still a very good game.
With the items, I feel like it's just nostalgia goggles. People look at this game and attack it's annoyances that have been in Zelda games since Ocarina of Time, but fail to see that they were there since OoT, attacking the spinner, Dominion Rod and Ball and Chain, while forgetting the Hover Boots, Megaton Hammer, and Mirror Shield (literally the only thing it does after you fight the Spirit Temple boss is make you lose less stuff when you get attacked by a Jelly)
I think he's not very impressed, lol. I love this dungeons, though however, I understand others may feel they're luckluster. His opinion is pretty valid and he has a point. This doesn't take away my love for the game, which is quite flawed tbh
100th like
Also this is nitpicky but its hidden village not gerudo village
@@alexanderpape7024 the ball n chain was a good item. the dominion rod and the spinner were only good in their dungeons, but suffer from the whole limited use out of dungeon issue. TP had some pretty formulaic and padded out dungeons that made them pretty lackluster. arbiters grounds however was a good dungeon. snowpeak would have been better if it was a non linear dungeon. temple of time was a bit long, but the gimmick was creative.
@Kohdok I have your comment its 300th like.
Hi Mark, love the boss keys series.
However one thing that has become clear throughout this series is that you put a strong emphasis on dungeons and dungeon puzzles that test your spatial awareness and seem to that heavily prefer it. Even so much to the point that you divide dungeons in 2 categories (those that do and those that don't) and let dungeon lay-outs be the main factor in dungeons creating all those dungeon graphs.
While I do enjoy these kind of puzzles and the incredible amount of work you put into making this (seriously, props to you), that isn't what makes a dungeon a dungeon in my opinion.
As I see it, (Zelda) dungeons are a collection of puzzles, platforming and the sense of going on an adventure with a clear purpose of clearing (and escaping) the dungeon.
Non-linear dungeons, dungeons with backtracking, and dungeons where you need to create a mental map can be used for these purposes, but aren't a necessity for creating a dungeon. They are simply tools and ways to create puzzles. However that isn't what makes a Zelda dungeon good.
Let's say you create a dungeon solely based around spatial awareness. You would have blank rooms with simple landmarks so you can distinguish between them. There is no logical connection between the rooms so you have to visit every room before you know where you have to go or happen to reach the end of the dungeon before that time. And once you figure out where to go, you have to get back and get past all the landmarks you already visited probably multiple times to get to the goal.
What I basically described was just a simple plain maze from a first person view.
Clearly that is not the single factor that makes Zelda dungeons good.
So sure, you can both dress them up with nice visuals, enemies, platforming and other puzzles. But if you did that with a maze type overlay and a linear type overlay, what would be better? The maze type? Well perhaps a little since it is one puzzle more you have to solve, but that's basically it. Just one more puzzle.
Puzzles can consist of many tools and many ways to solve it. And a dungeon without testing spatial awareness is just that. A dungeon without testing spatial awareness. But so is a dungeon without mathematic puzzles just a dungeon without mathematic puzzles. So is a dungeon without mechanical puzzles just a dungeon without mechanical puzzles. So is a dungeon without long term memory puzzles just a dungeon without long term memory puzzle. And so on and so on.
What I'm trying to say is. Every puzzle can test a specific or a couple cognitive capabilities. Picking out one type of puzzle you happen to prefer and basing the very essence of dungeons around that, creates a large discrepancy and disparity in what you do and don't highlight or even mention in your analyses.
See. I really, reaaally like your videos. And have the utmost respect on the work you put in them. But seeing that most factors in dungeons are just shortly mentioned and some even disregarded altogether makes it kind of sad to see how some dungeons are just easily written off. Lots if not most non-spatial awareness puzzles are disregarded. Enemies are rarely talked about. Platforming is something that might have been mentioned once or twice. The atmosphere and build-up to the end goal in dungeons has only sometimes been touched on. And the way multiple different factors are made as a logical coherent whole are all factors that weigh in to make the Zelda dungeons we have come to love (or sometimes hate).
I do agree. I don't think that a dungeon has to feature spatial awareness tests to be good. And in this episode I praised Temple of Time, despite it being entirely linear. Though, linear dungeons do have to work really hard, because I don't think Zelda's core mechanics are especially fun to hold up without interesting level design. So for me it's more about the balance between the two, and at this point in the series the balance is way in favour of linear dungeons. Twilight Princess has two or three dungeons that I'd call Find the Path out of nine - not a great rate compared to other games that are more balanced.
I'd love to hear you talk about how these dungeons' linearity contributes to, takes away from, or enables different experiences more, like you sort of did with the temple of time. It definitely does feel like you take for granted that linearity is inherently worse than nonlinearity, and it'd be interesting to see you go into more detail on why that particular design might be utilized and whether dungeons that use it are successful or not on those merits. Especially since so many of these recent dungeons have been so straightforward, there has to be some meat there.
well I will say I do love this series I feel you have let me down with this one but I guess I'm biased because twilight Princess has taken my heart for the best Zelda game yet beating out oot in my heart. I just wish you would go more in depth about the games there's a lot more to them then the main dungeons you didn't even mention the wolf in the game. the changed fighting mechanics midna who I feel the story behind her is what has brought this game together better then any other Zelda game ever has in the past. All you did was mention the similarity in path shapes the entire video. I well though over all it's been a good series so far.
I agree with pretty much everything you said. I feel like he completely missed the point of several of the dungeons, especially Snowpeak Ruins. Yetta giving you markers and opening doors for you is meant to build a suspenseful atmosphere from a character who clearly isn't in there right mind. Every time she sends you off to get the key and you travel through several rooms full of puzzles and enemies only to find something else builds more suspense and distrust in her character, culminating in her being the boss of the dungeon. I mean, mechanically there's no real difference between her opening the door and you finding a key/item/switch that would open it. They specifically have her do it for you to give you a feeling of unease about not having direct control. Mark's summary of this is "it's a bit crap"
I really wish he spent more time talking about the atmosphere and setting of the dungeons, I know the focus is on level design but those things affect the level design too. Snowpeak Ruins being on a remote mountaintop adds to the suspenseful feeling of being trapped, Lakebed Temple's waterwheel and area flooding puzzles fit it being at the bottom of a lake, Arbiter's Grounds linearity is only logical seeing as how it is literally a proving grounds for those seeking the Master Sword.
I don't think he has bad insight or views, I just think he's focusing too much on one aspect of level design.
CJ Curtis I think he is aware of atmosphere and all that, he is simply dissecting what makes Zelda challenging. The creativity of the design and the critical thinking required to beat the dungeons are the topic, and he is comparing the games in that way. Breaking down the complexity of the dungeons, not the atmosphere, story, fights, etc
These dungeons are more linear than i remember...
Because i got lost in these dungeons ALOT!
Yeah, me too. I always thought TP had the most complex dungeons in the series, until I saw this video. Maybe it was the large size of the dungeons combined with the realistic art style that made them seem more complex than they actually were.
mark can you please make a video on the illusion of choice in video games? I'm sure im not the only one interested in that type of video thanks for the great content!
I second this plz! :)
I'm pretty sure he did make one. It featured The Walking Dead if I remember right.
Everytime I read the words "illusion of choice" the Bioshock games come back to my mind.
theviniso same here thats why i love that game
Watch MrBTongue's Choice and Consequences video. It covers basically what yo are asking.
How long does it take you to complete all your animations for one Boss Keys episode? The lakebed temple stairs was an impressive touch.
Motion graphics generally take about a week to make, I guess. This one's got a lot of stuff packed in.
Nison545 you do not realize how easy that is to do
I don't either. How do you do it?
It's simply 3D animation rather than 2D. Which means you can actually rotate the staircase in the middle using a single command rather than having to create a very complex illusion of depth and spinning. I'll admit it did look pretty neat, though.
@@GMTK i only played 2 zelda games being this and oot but i didn't get the final arrow increase in oot cause i didn't wanna waste time trying to get a riding bow challenge but i did get all the pieces and skulltulas plus the bonus arrows and every other collectible but the aforementioned upgrade while tp i missed some pieces cause they were too difficult to get i'm looking at you yeti sledding! so both my grades are a about an a- which is better then most people will admit!
You can't really say they ripped off Shadow of the Colossus when Nintendo has had the idea of climbing big monsters since Ocarina of Time. Link was supposed to climb Ganon in the final fight.
That, and we all know that Shadow of the Colossus would have been way cooler with a Hookshot.
they borrowed heavily from Shadow of the Colossus. It was a good move. Shadow of the Colossus was released at the perfect time when game developers needed a new model for the emotional tone of their games
That's true.
Also the idea of mainstream non episodic tv series is riped from me beacuse I wanted to do it for a long time.
And why does it matter if it was a ripoff? There's nothing wrong with taking good ideas from something and applying it elsewhere.
I love Boss Keys so much. It's so nerdy (a video lecture - thorough, detailed analysis of videogame dungeons, complete with maps and legends) and it's the absolute best. SO goddamn good! Thank you Mark!
People love Snow Peak Ruins because of how awesome the atmosphere is in that dungeon. You also get the amazing skating sequence to get there.
It's my favorite dungeon of all time just because of its atmosphere.
I adore Twilight Princess, but not for the level design of the dungeons. It has an interesting and unique story and atmosphere (bolstered, as you mentioned, by the dungeons' setting design), an interesting one-off gimmick (the wolf form) that fits the flavor and provides a nice mechanical shake-up, and a nice big overworld to explore. Plus, it has swordplay that's generally more intricate and tactical than "mash A and win" without making you wait for long periods of time between swings, which I appreciate.
I acknowledge you're not here to talk about those things, though, and the dungeons do leave a bit to be desired.
Oh man, agreed.
Twilight princess dungeon were extremely memorable for me. Probably because of actual setting of those dungeons. They actually felt like a part of the world and had character.
The first temple for example had a monkey mini boss who was possessed by some parasite and he end up helping kill the boss for saving him. The build up for the mansion was amazing you search for a yeti and when you finally found him you chase him on a snowboard which was *sick* and then have to save his sick wife by making soup and at the last moment she end up being the boss and all that whit some insane music. In summary those dungeons are a rollercoaster of emotions not just some puzzles you have to complete which is awesome.
I just find it weird that people don't give twilight princess the praise it deserves.
Finally, a gaming channel that does more than just straight-up game reviews or lets plays.
Temple of Time's folded design definitely separates it from other dungeons in the game and makes its linearity work in its favor, so it's not a surprise that you found it somewhat interesting; I found myself enjoying and appreciating it a lot more than I remember in my most recent playthrough.
One oversight I see in these analysis, particuarly of the 3D games, is that the analysis occurs too far "up" on the design chain, that is, it's looking too much at room and pathway structure without also looking at individual room designs. In my experience, 3D Zelda's typically have less complex "map structure" because they cram more challenges and complexity into each individual room. I understand, too, though, that non-linear layouts and complex rooms are not mutually exclusive.
Just something to consider.
Sir Brown, another video as comprehensive and intriguing as ever. Thank you.
But I have to say I think it was unfair of you to call Argorok battle a Shadow of the Colossus rip off at 9:34. They were released a year apart, sure, but that was due to porting issues with the upcoming Wii release. Originally they were going to be released just one month apart.
First I thought that was just a joke, but the "a bit cheeky" follow up left me with the impression that you were serious.
matthewmatosis said it perfectly when he said the dungeon are more about making you feel smart at this point instead of forcing you to be smart and this wonderful video 100% confirms that
the subtle forced backtracking causing players to notice that they can turn the bridges or hop over the gates with the clawshot are in my opinion smart on Nintendo's part by making anybody feel like a real dungeon sleuth
That's interesting - I haven't watched Matthew's videos since starting Boss Keys but I'm keen to go back now and see what he thinks of these games.
Mark Brown I love his videos as well as yours and mechagamezilla's although Mecha is definitely the odd one out here
Matt was definitely a bit more positive about the game and it's dungeons because he reviews it as a whole game experience and he really liked the mansion which I thought was kind of funny that you disliked it so much
but he came at it from the angle you mentioned at the beginning of the video where each dungeon is a visually unique space and seemingly cohesive piece of architecture which I think is the vibe Nintendo was going for since they refused to amp up the difficulty after wind waker which is a shame because it flies in the face of its darker tone
Mark Brown also after going back and watching your breakdown of MM as well as Matt's reviews of all the Zelda's I feel like this game tried to combine both OoT and MM together but without making it anywhere near as difficult as either game, although that isn't saying a whole lot as, but they wanted to create a place that felt like a real space and a piece of architecture like in Majora's Mask, as well as the grimdark tone, but they didn't want to push anyone away from the Wii by following the difficulty as it was a launch title
the OoT comparisons are obvious so I don't feel a need to expand
Dylan Grell I actually feel that Twilight Princess is actually a much harder game overall than Wind Waker, but not because of puzzle design; rather, the difficulty in Twilight Princess comes directly from combat encounters. Rather than solving puzzles and figuring out how to navigate open, free-roaming dungeons, the "puzzles" you solve in this game seem to be of the "how do I beat this new enemy that keeps killing me" variety (see, for example, the Darknuts and Freezards, both large enemies placed inconveniently for the player that are immune or resistant to a large portion of the player's arsenal, rendering each item effectively useless outside of its individual puzzles). Given the amount of input delay I experienced in my playthrough, this turned what seemed at first to be the deepest and most fun combat system I'd seen in Zelda to date into a frustrating slog by the time I reached endgame content like Hyrule Castle and the Cave of Ordeals.
FlipzMCL I don't disagree with you, but again Matthewmatosis hit the nail on the head when he said that the combat is tougher and a little deeper in TP than in WW it does seem to lack player progression where as both games have a lot of character progression
a nice step would have been implementing many of those optional moves like the helm splitter in enemies instead of whatever item you came across in the dungeon
it is so well what you're doing, I've been looking forward to this episode at least the last two months. great work Mark
Damn, man. The amount of work you put into these illustrations and animations is really impressive. This is top-of-the-line, thought-provoking content that's continually leaving me impressed.
A minor thing, but why are people against the fact that you don't start at the beginning of a dungeon when you die in TP? There's a difference between difficulty and annoyance. It's always a pain to slug your way through parts of a dungeon you've already beaten. And why is making things easier always seen as a bad thing? These dungeons are really fun, even if they're straightforward. I'd like to hear more about the tone and enjoyment of dungeons rather than just the layout.
Y'know, I've thought about that too. Many people say that getting sent back to the beginning is your punishment for failing, and I get that.; failure should have some consequence. But when the consequence is just tedium, as opposed to losing something tangible that you don't want to lose (other than time, patience, -and your virginity-), then I feel like the punishment is being used wrong.
I love Snowpeak Ruins because it subverts your expectations. You go in thinking you've just walked inside Yeto and Yeta's home, and you have, and then you start to do errands for them, and before you know it, you're doing the same actions and traversing the place like you would a dungeon, and hey... this IS a dungeon! It's well disguised and creates an atmosphere and world that is unlike any other dungeon in the series. It's all about presentation, really, and it really shines in Snowpeak Ruins.
Wow, first time I’ve seen this series, and I’m amazed. The editing is well done and the models really not only help describe the dungeon, but look amazing. Nice job!
As the Zelda series pushed forward, I think starting with Majora's Mask, I preferred the world beyond the dungeons, more than the dungeons themselves. At least for the 3D games.
Majora's Mask had all of those mask-centric sidequests, Wind Waker had a large sea that needed charting, Twilight Princess had a lovely atmosphere that was great to soak in. Skyward Sword is a game I can barely remember, though I recall liking it. *shrug*
I think A Link Between Worlds is the first Zelda game in forever in which I actually couldn't wait to start dungeon-crawling. And now I want to play it again.
+Blue A Link Between Worlds was awesome and I definitely want to replay it as well. :D
What got me most excited for it was the fact that I didn't really get too far into A Link to the Past due to not owning the game.
I got up to Moldorm in ALttP when I first played it, but I didn't get the third pendant.
ALBW was an awesome way to re-experience classic Zelda for me. :)
That was another great episode! I really like Snowpeak because the person guiding/sending you around it is the boss; it's more a story/atmosphere thing, really.
Please do Spirit Tracks! It's, I would say, very interesting to examine how the central dungeon you keep returning to has changed between the two.
I just found out these series of videos an hour ago, and I am in love with it already. Keep up the great work, and I have mad respect for you man. Consider yourself having a new sub!
Your videos have been popping up in my suggested feed for a while but it took me until today to actually watch one and HOLY HYLIA AM I HOOKED. This is such an interesting series and for someone who is obsessed with learning about the minutia of video games and game design, it's practically perfect! You've got a new sub, and I'm off to binge through more episodes!!
Spirit tracks was fantastic and deserves your coverage, even if it's simply slammed into the Phantom Hourglass episode.
I agree. I'm not sure it's one of the better Zelda games, but it's a great game by its own merits, and totally worth analyzing. Plus I'd love to know if Nintendo learned anything from Phantom Hourglass's format, and how that affected Spirit Track's design.
Phantom Hourglass was much better.
I don't think Spirit Tracks was fantastic, but it was certainly a good game, and the sand dungeon was amazing.
Although I have to admit that I stopped playing it rather soon the first time I picked it up; riding the train to get anywhere just felt like a chore.
Opinions, everybody's got 'em
You should give it another shot, it's no more a trouble than the ship and the final boss fights are really unique for Zelda games.
*Twilight Princess is my favorite Zelda game!*
*So now I feel offended and insulted and you made me cry, you big meanie!*
Just kidding.
I love you and your videos.
Whereas the dungeon puzzles and boss fights may be more formulaic and simple, I find the story, characters, aesthetic design, and overall sense of adventure very compelling. I loved exploring those hidden caves by lake Hylia, and running around Hyrule Castle Town, and flying with goddamn cuccos. I felt more emotionally connected to the game because I empathized with Midna and laughed at Telma. The game gave me many reasons to care for my objectives outside of solving a puzzle. Children are kidnapped, a little Zora boy is orphaned, townspeople are ghosts shivering in Twilight.
I suppose what I am trying to convey is whatever Twilight Princess may lack in dungeon design it makes up for in many other areas.
(Oh, and it's got some damn clever items.)
There's my two cents, yo.
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As a Game Dev myself, I find your channel and this series i particular amazing, thank you for taking the time to make it. Also shoutout to legend of legaia's music being used in the background! One of my favorite rpgs from a long time ago.
The ice dungeon is easily my favorite. The design and concept of it is great, and it legitimately felt like you were exploring a creepy, almost abandoned home with one area that feels roomy and warm. Probably the best dungeon tone-wise in the entire series. And I like the item.
Finally, someone who actually likes the Lakebed Temple. I've seen so many people who hate this dungeon because it's too "complicated", but honestly that's one of the things that makes it the best in the game.
"Lakebed Temple"
"Complicated."
That's a fun giggle. I bet they also complained about the Water Temple.
Fun Fact: I bet all of the complaints that the Water Temple was too hard is why all the dungeons after OoT are so linear and easy.
Well, I do agree that the Water Temple was too hard for kids. I played Zelda when I was a kid and got COMPLETELY stuck on the Water Temple. Had a friend who had already completed the game guide me through it.
Though I recently replayed the game (forgot nearly the entire game over the years) and suddenly the Water Temple was easy for me.
Simply put, children have to be able to complete this game too so yes, the Water Temple was too hard.
I wouldn't really call it complicated, but I do wish that you'd gotten the double clawshot there instead of having to wait for it in the City in the Sky, because all of the hanging on cogs really kills my desire to play through that temple, even though it's not even an especially big part of it.
That's why I put complicated in quotes. The same people who hate the Lakebed Temple are mostly the same people who hated the Water Temple and the Great Bay Temple, the only thing that sucked in the Water Temple was the switching between the iron boots and normal boots(in the original version), but other than that is actually a pretty rewarding dungeon with some clever puzzles, the Great Bay Temple is pretty straight forward, you just need to explore every room that's available at the moment then change the current and explore the rest, barely any complications. The Lakebed is the easiest water temple from the ones I mentioned, it's more "complicated" than the rest of Twilight Princess' dungeons, but that makes it possibly the best in the game.
My main gripe with the dungeons in this Zelda is the fact that the first half of them give you interesting and versatile items, and the second half gives you dungeon specific items that are boring as hell and worse, only really work in very specific areas.
Illusionaire1 I actually really like the Dominion Rod, the biggest offender in the "one use only" list, and wish the item and its uses had been explored much further than it was. The items are definitely underutilized in Twilight Princess (especially when you consider how much emphasis is put on the swordplay system with all the hidden techniques), and while I could understand de-emphasizing items for the sake of combat as a design choice, it's undercut by most enemies having just one "solution" involving one specific item or technique that's necessary to make beating it not a chore. In essence, the battles have the same linearity and lack of choice as the dungeons, and the game suffers as a result.
Yes! I actually think that the Dominion Rod is the "most okay" of the second wave of items. For me it was undercut only because you're sort of forced to use it when the game really decides to force you to do a lot of world map backtracking and fetch quests.
For me, the ball and chain and the "skate" are the worst ofenders, with the skate being literally an item that you can almost only use on the dungeon.
And I totally agree with you, Nintendo games for me were always about smart use of "everything". a sort of "economic" way of designing, if that makes any sense, with everything having multiple uses. And Zelda TP, as you said, has a very "puzzle like" approach to enemies, you get the item and you defeat the enemy easier, no really "smart" use of items outside of it.
FlipzMCL Actually, the double clawshot is.
Marshadow the Magical The double clawshot is... what?
In City in the Sky, you get a second clawshot, as such you can navigate within the air. They brought it back in SS (skipping straight to double clawshot)
I love your series man, very informative. Keep em' coming!
I can think of a few personal reasons why I like Snowpeak Ruins. For one, I actually like sliding block puzzles. I thought the storyline of the dungeon was really sweet, helping a surprisingly nice yeti nurse his wife back to health, and it's kind of ironic that one of the most heartwarming moments of the game happens in the coldest region of Hyrule. I also like the implementation of the soup, where your first few objectives produce a tangible result in the form of a replenishable healing item that gets more potent as you add ingredients. Plus, I just have particularly vivid memories of my first time playing through it, to the point where I can't have spinach dip without thinking of the dungeon (and vice versa).
What an underrated channel. Your content is amazing and you are truly a professional at game analysis. Game developers would be smart to hire you as a consultant.
One of the things about the Twilight Princess dungeons is certain key items are basically only useful in that dungeon and the final dungeon. Stuff like the ball and chain, the spinning top thing, I seem to remember them having little to no real use out in the overworld or in combat. One of my favourite Zelda features is finding a new item and defeating old enemies in new and original ways, but this game didn't quite lend itself so well to that. Oh well, great video as always :)
The spinner and ball&chain are used for accessing new areas on the world map too (for treasures). Ball&chain is totally useful in combat. What kind of items should there be instead?
I mean, yeah they are used for treasures in tiny little remote parts of the map but those items aren't really fun to use outside of their specified usage. I'd have prefered fun stuff that made combat more fun/interesting like LTTP's Ice Rod. Imagine if you could freeze any enemy, or parts of enemies. Fire it at the ground to make it slippy so enemies can fall over, or freeze water to create a bridge. Or a fire rod, for the reverse sort of effect.
Really, what I've seen so far of Breath of the Wild seems to be the kind of things I want. Even a shield is more than a shield, it's a freaking snowboard! You've got the levitation, the ability to set pretty much anything on fire! LTTP, at least at the time, felt like a bit of a playground. Whenever you got a new item you tried it out in any way you could to see what it could do. TP never really encouraged that sort of play. BoTW looks like it's totally embracing it :)
Interesting, but the same complaint is true for most other 3D Zelda games. OoT has the hammer, the hover boots and the mirror shield that you barely ever use outside of their dungeons, and the same is true for the ice and light arrows in MM. WW is surprisingly good in this department, though, all the dungeon items are used countless times during exploring the world.
I think top and the dominion rod were the most disappointing to me. One could have been a faster way of travel and the other could have been used to control enemies or something. Instead they both get very little use outside of their dungeons. The most used item is still the bow but its also the most boring imo.
Yes, WW is the best for that but that's also because it had a big emphasis on exploration and secondary content. I think that has to do with linearity. TP is easily the most linear LoZ game and so it becomes particularly challenging to integrate and make use of every mechanic in every dungeon. The beginning is more coherent because there are less mechanics introduced to the player, as the complexity increases and the player progresses through more dungeons with new items, it becomes cumbersome to use ALL of those items in quick succession.
just stumbled on and devoured this whole series in one sitting. great work, it's been really helpful in highlighting my own opinion.
I love your videos, they make you think about games in a more critical light, which makes them more enjoyable.
Damn Your videos are just really good. They're very analytical, educational yet fun.
I feel like most gaming youtube channels don't really care much for game design, nor appreciate it. But watching all your vids, really shows the most important part of games, the design. I'm glad I stumbled upon your channel, arguably the best content I could find on youtube now.
So thank you, Mark Brown. For all the effort you put in your videos, because they are really good, and require much thought to make.
Thanks!
Kaptainkristian has a wonderful youtube channel as well, I recommend it. I like both Mark Brown's and Kaptain Kristian's channels equally, although they focus on different things.
If you like this, you will also like Errant Signal, Extra Credits, GDC and Matthewmatosis.
This is one of my favorite Legend of Zelda games.
i LOVE this format/series. i'm happy when a new video pops up in my feed. this is youtube bliss C:
the flow of your videos is exceptional. very interesting content and ideas as well . keep it up man!
I really enjoyed TP when it released, and again when I finally made myself beat it years later - both times it was more due to atmosphere than the dungeons... But, yeah, totally okay with me but I get that others were disappointed by their simplicity. To me, TP was among the most enjoyable in the series, up there with Link between Worlds and the GBC games (my favourites for one reason or another).
And personally: You cannot imagine how much I'm looking forward to your take on the DS games. I loved what they did with the map, but it's also been a while since I last played them, so I'm curious and really almost tempted to give Spirit Tracks another chance.
Really liked seeing some mention and discussion of the individual combats and puzzles within chunks and rooms! I commented in a previous Boss Keys (late to the party, so I'm sure no one saw) that I think it's useful to think of the find the path/follow the path spectrum you delineated might be more usefully thought of in terms of a tool that allows the designers to manipulate the amount of cognitive load put on the player; how a less complicated dungeon structure means players have less attention to spend on discrete puzzles, encounters, and moments, and vice versa.
Probably just confirmation bias on my part, but it was really interesting watching this video and seeing this sort of come through as you talked about the dungeons' actual simplicity not being immediately apparent and not affecting your initial playthrough, and about how so many of the actual puzzles and especially moments were cool or exciting or fun. I haven't personally played every game you've had a video on yet, so I wonder if you've noticed any sort of pattern or progression along these lines? Also wonder what you (or anyone) might think about this whole idea, if I'm actually just making this all out of nothing.
Either way, hope to see more discussion of the puzzles and combat in addition to the structure (so long as it's not too far outside the scope you're aiming for) :) Love the series to death, can't wait for the next video!
Just binged all of Boss Keys. It's brilliant stuff! I definitely want more, Subscribed!
Hi Mark, I love your videos. You are a genius at making the analytical side of looking at video games engaging and fun. It's great that you have taken the time to map out the design of Zelda dungeons in this series. Totally agree with you about the simplicity of this game, cleverly hidden in the visual maturity of this game. Can't wait for the next video! Keep it up 😄
Hey Mark, I hope you read this. I would like to highlight an aspect of the 3D person dungeons that you haven't addressed yet. I have played most Zelda games that you speak of, and I understand and agree why you say some dungeons are harder and more fun than others. BUT,
Even tho A Link to the Past has very good dungeons, i never felt lost, BECAUSE it was a 2D top down view of the rooms. I could clearly see the elements that I needed to understand for me to progress.
HOWEVER in 3D from 3rd person perspective a large room can't be deciphered so quickly. You have to have seen some rooms from multiple angles before being able to figure out the exact procedure that needs to be followed.
This 3rd person perspective does not make a dungeon harder per se, but it makes the figuring out part longer, and it seems like a more daunting task at first.
I think this could be mentioned, because personally I felt I didn't have problems moving forward in ALttP but I did need more time in some of the 'easier' 3D dungeons. And I think this is due to the 'figuring out' part is easier in 2D.
Yes, this is a good point. Though, I do find 3D works for some dungeons. In the Oracle episode I mentioned how Ocarina's Water Temple is easier to understand than Oracle's Jabu Jabu Belly, because water raising and lowering makes more sense in three dimensions.
Something I found interesting that links to TP's repeated dungeon structure is that a lot of the music is very similar, but have little tweaks and different interpretations that make them feel different! (I mean, just listen to the Hyrule Field theme, Midna's Lament, and Gerudo Desert theme!)
And the hidden skill fanfare too, I believe.
you're right! I noticed that the Hyrule Field theme had many variations across the entire game, and loved each one. They were surprisingly creative considering that they had they same basic melody
Old comment, I know, but those are called musical "motifs" and Twilight Princess does them REALLY well. The theme you hear when you're slashing into a boss uses one of the most common motifs in the soundtrack, I like to think of it as Link's unofficial theme in this game.
Hey, I really appreciate your well-reasoned, critical approach to evaluating the level design in the Zelda series. Thanks, keep up the great work, and you earned a sub!
Hi Mark, I just meet you and your channel with this video, and then I watched the full series, then subscribed, while having some braingasms because I love how you chopped the puzzles and the dungeons layout and the ulterior ideas behind all of that. Been playing Zelda from long 12 years and honestly I really want to enjoy puzzles and dungeons with other so I just begin to be a D&D DM, and hopefully I'll learn to make tiny games in some time. This really really makes me like more the games and hopefully I'll be able to apply this ideas more effectively to my games, so thanks.
I really want to see more from this series and until that I'll watch your other videos to get some inspiration.
In my opinion, Twilight Princess had the best overall dungeon design than any other Zelda game. They each had amazing atmospheres and puzzles.
But how does atmosphere contribute to a dungeons functional design and how it creates interesting gameplay? And what was great about the puzzles?
AlonditeMX For a dungeon to be enjoyable, it must have a clear and developed atmosphere, or else all of the dungeons will feel the same. It is one of the most important parts of a dugeon. Also, the puzzles were absolutely amazing, such as the numerous wind puzzles in the Forest Temple, the turning staircase in the Lakebed Temple, the Arbiter's Grounds had the spinner and the turning pillars, and the Temple of Time was probably the most puzzle - filled dungeon in any game, like using your arrows to break pots or hit switches and the scale. These are just a few examples of some of the puzzles. Also, the combat was amazing in all of them.
I don't think TP can hold a candle to Skyward Sword.
exactly!! If you play LoZ because you want challenging puzzle games, you're playing the wrong franchise! There are so many things that make a good dungeon and the puzzles alone are not enough to make the memorable, or enjoyable! I love Twilight Princess because it's so visually appealing, exciting, dramatic... i've long forgotten the puzzles...
How the dungeons "feel" has no bearing on how they play. It simply doesn't matter. If you're going to provide examples of great puzzles, you're going to need to explain why they're great. Simply pointing out puzzles in a game doesn't automatically make them great.
not even notification squad, subscription sqaud
'always on youtube anyway so we don't really need notifications' squad
TH-cam's new layout notifies everyone if you're subbed, soooooo...
What a great way to start off the day! Love your work man!
This really makes me want to play this game again. I felt like this kind of dungeon was missing in Breath of the Wild. Great video
If I remember correctly, Spirit Track's dungeons were pretty good, but it's been a while.
They ain't bad, but I hate how the view only shows you a small area of the entire dungeon, making it a little hard to solve them. Many dungeons require you to basically solve a puzzle in order to get to a certain location and if you get there and don't know how to proceed and would like to take a look around in the dungeon to see consider your options you'll have to resolve that puzzle in order to get to the position that you've already gotten to.
It would be really interesting to see an episode of Boss Keys about that game, though.
+ThePC007 that's why the DS games put such an emphasis on the map. You're supposed to scribble ideas, directions, markers etc all over it - kinda ensuring that you end up knowing the layout inside out. It's not so difficult to solve a puzzle when the answer it's literally written on the top screen for example.
Hmm. Makes sense I guess. The thing is, I can usually remember everything I see just fine and I know where it is, but I like walking around the dungeons to see whether there isn't anything I missed when I'm stuck. And it's also a lot easier to come up with ideas when you can see the actual world in front of you, rather than a sheet of paper with notes on them. At least for me.
I'm currently stuck in that one room whether you had to choose between one of three entrances at the very top of the Spirit Tower and I have no idea what to do next. :/
Plus, you have playing as both Link and Zelda in the Spirit Tower. That alone would take a good chunk of the video.
While we're at it, a Boss Keys-style video for Okami would be great. It follows the Zelda formula, but mixed up the details some pretty fun an exciting ways. I'd love to see how the two series compare, and what Capcom brought to the table.
these vids keep me going for real. Keep up the good work.
I found this video from a Facebook post and decided to check out your channel and then decided to watch all your previous videos in the series, before I get to this one. They're great videos! Breaking down the dungeons and seeing how it's laid out is really interesting. Something I never thought about but now that I'm seeing it, it's really cool. I was excited to get this to this video, as Twilight Princess holds a special place in my heart, as it was the first Zelda game I played. Well, to completion, at least. Keep up the good work. Can't wait until you get to Skyward Sword, so I'll sub so I could know when you make it.
Ooooh, fancy 3D models for Lakebed Temple! Nice work.
I'm freaking love Breath of the Wild, but even watching this video I feel like something of the Zelda franchise has been lost. The beauty and imagination of the dungeons and the wonderful soundtrack.... I don't know. These things aren't bad in BOTW, but I kind of feel like I'm going to forget it quicker then these classic ones.
Amazing video! I praise you for all the effort you put into those!
Wonderful video again, I'm loving this series, thank you!
Oh man I was wondering an hour ago when the next episode would be.
Twilight Princess's dungeons felt organic and intuitive. Some people like the "not-knowing-what-to-do" style of gameplay, but Twilight makes you actually feel like you are discovering stuff and thats way more fun than spend hours trying to figure out by yourself what to do or where to go. That kind of "exploration" is actually lazy gamedesign with the purpose of making the game longer. I really enjoy more linear, specifically designed puzzles and a clever way to make you progress without getting you to walk around doing nothing until something eventually happens.
the issue I have with TP's dungeons is that they generally felt way too long, restricting and focus on obvious gimmicks. that is not to say linear dungeons are bad, however, it is nice when some dungeons do offer branching paths and puzzles that do not require just one obvious item where players can find alternate solutions.
I don't know about others, but I know the reason why I like Snowpeak Ruins is because it has a full story behind it. Not a lot of Zelda dungeons have the feeling of "this makes sense why it exists outside of being a dungeon".
Seeing your Twilight Princess HD footage, I realized you don't compress your videos that much. And I'm very thankful. This is the best footage of this game I've seen on TH-cam besides the final official trailer (I think? It was footage of the Cave of Shadows, might not have been a trailer).
"and you can pretend that the Zelda games some kind of connected universe or lore or whatever by noticing all the similarities to the Ocarina of Time dungeons."
shots fired
Wait, what's wrong with pushing the ice blocks? That's literally a puzzle - something you've claimed that these dungeons have more of a need for. In fact, I believe these are a callback to the ice-pushing mechanic from Ocarina of Time in the Cavern of Ice.
Also, I've loved following your videos, going all the way back to the A Link to the Past video. When you say the LoZ games have a legacy for creating intricate spaces, are you mostly referring to that one game?
+Pedro Aguilar They're just dull puzzles in my opinion - slow and slippy. And the puzzles that I think Zelda needs more of are the dungeon-wide puzzles that exist over multiple rooms.
+Mark Brown Oh, and no. LTTP, Ocarina, Majora, Link's Awakening, and Oracle all have intricate level design
Hey, I really appreciate the response!
Fair enough - considering that the end goal of those block-pushing puzzles is to flip a switch and open a door, I can't argue with that puzzle's dullness. To your point, it would be much more interesting if that same mechanic led to some dungeon-wide changes, say for instance, changes to the layout of the dungeon and the accessibility of different spaces. I'd prefer that over a yeti marking my map with my end-goal.
If I may make an observation: it appears that the 2D Zelda games are more consistent about providing these intricate spaces than 3D Zelda games, and I wonder how much of that has to do with our own abilities to better understand 2D spaces over 3D spaces.
You've made some fascinating distinctions, and I particularly enjoy the "find the path" and "follow the path" distinction as an analysis to how these dungeons are traversed. Your analysis on the Temple of Time really nails this - if Nintendo strongly leaned on one or other (preferable both for the sake of variety in a game), then really clever temples would result.
Honestly, I think one main reason is, with a 3D space they are able to create much more memorable, iconic indivicual moments, fights and puzzles, so they are much less reliant on the structure to make the dungeon interesting. 3D Zeldas are more focused on atmosphere and immersion, and it's no wonder the dungeons are far more visually and mechanically unique, while most of the 2D games (except Minish Cap, and somewhat ALBW) have dungeons which all look the same.
Even if years pass between me replaying a 3D Zelda I vividly remember all of the dungeons, while I just played Oracle of Ages half a year ago, and while I greatly enjoyed actually going through the dungeons, I can't tell any of them apart from memory, except the Mermaid"s Cave, which was, incidentally, the best, and Jabu Jabu's Belly which was the worst (imo).
All that said, I do love the occasioanl 3D dungeon where there is a central puzzle like Great Bay Temple or even the final dungeon in SS.
Lovely stuff as always, Mark!
Interesting to see the shift in goals the dungeons have in this game-- more of a narrative/mood to show players than a challenging puzzle to solve. Reminds me of how many D&D dungeons get designed, although by nature many of those don't use super difficult puzzles to keep the pacing up (also spatial puzzles are hard to just imagine, so they require more resources and DM work)
I would like to see one of these but with Metroid Prime 2 "dungeons"
Make sure to include the triforce temple of Skyward sword in a future episode cause it is verry interesting hou you must change the layout of the whole dungeon to get through.
Kevin van lissum This. This dungeon is why I'm looking forward so much to his SS video. I think the game's dungeon design is pretty good overall, but that one specifically was just so...different. It should make for a really interesting video.
fist bumped mega hard when he mentioned Spirit Tracks at the end for the next episode. That's a really underrated Zelda game, I wish more people gave it a chance.
These are incredibly well done videos, I subscribed.
Don't you dare skip Spirit tracks, it had all the trains you could ever need!
Not skipping it - just deciding whether to put it in the same episode as Phantom Hourglass.
I don't think anyone could blame you if you did. Their dungeon design is quite similar, and many of the items are basically the same (excluding the sand wand)
i like your videos and i think they're an interesting insight into what helps make a dungeon good from a spatial puzzle perspective, but it seems like you sometimes focus a bit too much are your own opinions and perspective's being "fact" and objective
i think the best example of this is how you sorta sarcastically dismiss the theme's of the dungeons as being "nice" but then wonder why people love snowpeak so much, and the answer is simply those people values themes a bit more than you do and snowpeak happens to have really well done theme-ing
i think it would be best to remember that while your focus on spatial challenges and structure is important and really cool, its still good to acknowledge that other people will love other things about games, they're an inherently subjective medium so everyone will care about different things.
Oh, he doesn't like the dungeons in the game for the most part and has legitimate reasons for doing so, how dare he? Why not come up with good rebbutals instead of whining about his critique?
I was about to ask awhile back when you where going to do boss keys for Twilight Princess and I was happy to see that this was uploaded
I've been using your videos to help with inspiration for my D&D dungeons, lol. A nother great video!
Twilight Princess is such a weird one, it does so so so much right with it's story telling, atmosphere, characters and world but the core of the game is just so hollow, even outside the dungeons, the overworld feels boring, the intro drags, and the towns feel rehashed from other games too. I think the most interesting thing it did with it's game play was mix sword fights and horse riding which is pretty tight.
HeavyEyed well because it takes place in the same bland hyrule of oot
Insert clever name here rekt. The Zelda game aren’t that great
Trista P
Well, I think TP is more like The Force Awakens of Zelda series, a remake in disguise of OoT (and a little bit of ALTTP) just like TFA heavily rehashed A New Hope, also expansive but empty world.
I honestly really enjoyed the game. It may have its flaws but I personally enjoyed it. It was actually the game that got me more interested in other Zelda games.
Heck, the story and characters of TP are kinda bad as well. Atmosphere and music are the only things TP has going for itself
6:35 using the canons to smash ISIS kinda cool
hey man, recently found your channel (Thank TH-cam's related section for finally giving me something good haha) Just want to say I'm a huge fan of your content and this series! I am super excited for Link Between worlds! Easiest sub I've done in awhile.
Man, I just miss the days when Zelda dungeons were intricate mazes you had to fight your way through. They had secret passageways, tons of enemies, they got progressively harder (if you decided to play them in the "correct" order), etc. Sure, they'd sometimes lead up to a mediocre boss fight, but they were awesome! Man, the 8-bit days were great!
+ Mark Brown Can we impatiently expect a episode on Breath of the Wild when it will be out ?
Thanks for these, it's always comprehensive and interesting :-)
Yep, definitely will do BOTW. But the episode won't be in March - I want to play the game normally myself first, and also I won't be caught up with all the other games by launch.
Even though the dungeon design is perhaps a tad lax in this set I still can't deny that it's my absolute favorite Zelda game, its atmosphere, variety of mechanics, in-depth story, I do honestly really love this game.
Also had the best sidekick character. These days if Link has a companion, they're just a tutorial bot. Kinda depressing really.
TP probably has my favourite selection of dungeons, even if I despise Temple of Time.
The main reason Snowpeak Ruins is my favourite dungeon is just because it's in a mansion. I just love the idea of it taking place inside someone's home.
Dude out of all video game channels yours stands out because it brings an incredibly intelligent point of view to game design. I know Nintendo gets a LOT if hate but its nice that someone appreciates their craft
disappointed you didn't bring the optional collectabled into account, since getting those pieces of heart generally requires backtracking
Twilight Princess is so easy, you're unlikely to need the heart pieces all that badly. You'll need them for the Cave of Ordeals, which I'll admit is one of my favorite Zelda areas ever, but for the main game you're gonna blast through almost everything pretty easily.
Angolin oh I know, but you'll probably still want to get them to complete the game 100%
The main quest being easy isn't anything new though. Even goin back to Ocarina, the hardest parts for me tended to be side quests.
Twilight Princess being easy is why I got so excited for Hero Mode with 2X damage from Ganondorf amiibos. I finally have to avoid taking damage! The Cave of Ordeals still isn't hard when you've got the Magic Armor though. The new Wolf-Only dungeon is pretty hard comparatively, but only because you're limited in your attacks and damage output. You can't take down things quite as fast, so you get overwhelmed sometimes.
Remember when hard mode wasn't something you had to pay extra for? Good times.
At this point we could rename this series "How I Learned to Stop Having Fun and Hate Zelda Games"
Every time a new episode comes out, I rewatch the series lol. Love these
I LOVED the block puzzles in Twilight Princess. So much so that I was happy to see the extra ones guarding a heart piece. And while the dragon does have a Shadow of the Colossus vibe, i really thought that about the boss of the water dungeon.
The dungeons were definitely the pinnacle of Twilight Princess.
Gosh, I love that game.
Good video, even if I think you're disregarding half of why dungeon design works. I'm actually slightly annoyed that you skipped Four Sword Adventures. To be fair, it's hard for people to find that game (single player is still worth even when it's made for multi) but those dungeons had some phenomenal puzzles in them. Looping layouts I can't tell you, the level system messes that up some.
Very hard to distinct "dungeons" and other levels in that game, to be fair.
You could simply just use the 3rd stage in each world as each of those are the most dungeon-esque.
One thing I liked about that game was that basically everything was a dungeon and required you to think about where you were going. I played it the one time and that was it, but I still can't get over one of the last puzzles that requires you to throw the boomerang through the wall and onto the other side of the screen. That took me forever to realize what i had to do.
Actually the Runaway Guys just did a play through of it, and even the four of them playing struggled with that puzzle. I can never forget the reverse pot hammer puzzle in that same area.
I think another reason I LOVE the Twilight Princess dungeons is because they aren't all ostensibly building towards fighting a huge boss. Specifically with Snowpeak Temple, I remember that the goal of it felt more like trying to help by finding soup ingredients. So while there's obviously a boss to fight and we're expecting it, it feels less like "I'm collecting the three Pendants of Power." or "I've got to find the six sages." The dungeons feels very connected to the world and have excellent worldbuilding and personality. That's beside the fact though in terms of actual dungeon layout design, so I do agree with everything is this video. Twilight Princess is AMAZING in its aesthetic choices, though. Great video! :)
snowpeak i noticed had the most potential to be mechanically a great dungeon or even one that was complex on the level of eagle's tower. the cannon puzzle had some spatial reasoning involved along with the last key and there is a backtracking moment with the sliding block puzzle (however the game does eventually lead you to it) and there are two optional rooms, but it is still very straight forward. the problem i noticed with twilight princess dungeons is that they are way too safe and hardly take any risks outside of the central room of lakebed temple or the statue gimmick in temple of time. had the game took risks like the n64 games, they could have easily had some of the best dungeons in the series. arbiters grounds is very consistent but guides you by the trail and most of the dungeons generally have you follow a path with forced backtracking. their aesthetics are really good and there are some strong combat moments, but it could really use a master quest version and correct the mistakes oot MQ made.
Hi Mark! Keep up the great work!
Snowpeak Ruins didn't just have any sliding block puzzle.
Snowpeak Ruins has one of the most notorious sliding block puzzles in the series. The puzzle is so challenging and fun that the puzzle is one of the things that pops into mind as soon as I think of the dungeon, and the first thing I think of when I think of sliding block puzzles.
It's also the best as far as atmosphere goes. It includes two real NPCs, takes place in a location that feels real, and has a story to it.
The "story in a dungeon" is something I really missed in Skyward Sword.
DISCUSSION TIME:
In his video, Mark concludes that these dungeons are a long way from where we started with the dungeons asking for our spatial awareness. We all realize that the more intricate levels were better and that's all well and good, but we must not forget that Nintendo has always tried to design for both young and old audiences. Now I'm not saying that young'uns can't solve the older dungeons (although they might need to do some brute-forcing), but Nintendo clearly never wants anyone to feel clueless. They understand their puzzles must not be a guessing game where you try everything until you get it right, much like how you talked to every character in the Zelda-games when you were stuck as a kid. And it's hard to make dungeons that ask you for your spatial reasoning without making you feel clueless.
The discussion then becomes: how to balance that scale? How could Nintendo make dungeons that are as interesting to 'solve' like the old days, yet create them without making the player ever feel clueless? (If that's possible at all.)
For obvious reasons: play nice to each other. Upvoting good answers and downvoting spammers and trollers is encouraged (although someone should tell me if that actually does something).
OPENING:
How could Nintendo make dungeons that require spatial awareness, yet create them without making you feel clueless?
MIDDLE:
To make the player never feel clueless, they will always need to have an idea of where they need to go or what to do. Now that idea might not be what they actually need to do, but as long as they have hope their next step will work, they aren’t clueless. Clueless is when they’re out of ideas.
Making dungeons that require spatial awareness is… not that hard. You can pick up pen and paper right now, create a series of rooms in which one switch, key or whatchamacallit acts on something in a room you’ve already been in. The easiest would be a key you find in a room where the door that needs it is just 1 room back.
To make this a bit more complex: if the dungeon uses some kind of switch, waterwork or rotating staircase that works different from any simple old key, the new mechanism should be explained to the player first before the dungeon tries you on it.
Now we’ve arrived at the hard part: how can we blend these 2 things together? We’ll, while thinking about this… I don’t think we need to. Nintendo has done it for us. The trick with the key in the video: that was blending the 2 together. Nintendo made the dungeon so you HAD to visit an area they later wanted you to backtrack to. And the puzzle in the water temple that made you lift the bridge, that also mixed the 2 together. And if you remember the snow-mansion, there’s a bunch of chandeliers in the main hall… once you have the chain and ball and understand you can swing these with it, there’s a nice puzzle that asks you of spatial reasoning as well.
There is, however, one difference with the old games: you don’t NEED to do the spatial reasoning. In the snow-mansion and water-temple, the items that require this are optional. Not only that, but the compass showing you the treasures lead you straight to these puzzles (although in the water temple the spatial reasoning is still there if you decide to solve the puzzle, as you need to solve it with one of the dungeons ‘switches’). And in the first temple, if you completely missed the rotating bridge when you got the key, the map shows that the only way to get to the last undiscovered rooms is from the room with the bridge (all the other rooms are already discovered since you needed to collect monkeys from them). And don’t tell me that people ‘might have not gotten the map’, it’s super easy to find and you’re going to stumble on it anyway if you would get stuck here in the first place.
CONCLUSION:
And that just leaves us with a very unsatisfying answer: Nintendo KNOWS how to create these spatial-reasoning kind of puzzles, but it’s no longer a requirement in their dungeons. Yet, what I think we mustn’t forget: we have a lot of love for the old dungeons and a lot of hate for the new, but they always seem to please the first time we play them. When you pick up your copy of ‘the Breath of the wild’, I want you to play through a dungeon and tell me you didn’t enjoy it. No matter how linear they may seem, to me the Zelda dungeons always please the first time I play them. It’s only when you go through it a second time they lose their charm, at least these newer ones. So while they might become less interesting for replayability, if Nintendo designs with a one-time play through in mind, I don’t think we will see any change anytime soon.
And tell me what you think. The more thoughts, the better.
Replying so i can follow. Really hope people answer you, seems interesting (though not the right place for discussions :P)
Yeah, I know. I tried some forum/blog sites, but I REALLY hate those with their unnavigable interfaces. Perhaps I should look more into twitter, but I've never used that so that will take some time before it feels like home.
Funny thing is: the only reason I even have a twitter account was because I wanted to ask Mark if him/I/we could set up some sort of discussion thing. Then I could do one of these every time he posts a video. Especially the variety of answers you would get interests me.
Also if you're reading this, hi Mark. Yeah, I'm that Casey-dude. Haven't found anything that works for me yet as you can see and exams have slowed me down, but I'm getting there.
Here's an idea: Nintendo has already offered more difficult dungeons, levels, and game modes in the past (usually as post-game bonuses). Perhaps the trick would be to make the main-line dungeons the same as they've been doing for a bit, where there's a simpler layout and more hand-holding, but make it so that there are far more optional dungeons with extra content. Instead of making every item a key to a puzzle that you need to finish the game, why not take A Link Between Worlds' lead and make a majority of the items only useful as advanced exploration or additional combat bonuses and stick them in optional dungeons of varying difficulties? There's no need to dumb things down if they're not required to complete the game, and fans of higher difficulties or harder puzzles will surely appreciate the challenge, and the exploration-prone players will enjoy the new avenues opened by the new items. Maybe Nintendo goes along with a four main dungeons approach (with the usual world-as-a-dungeon filler between dungeons), but has a dozen or so optional side dungeons with all the complexity of a main-line dungeon scattered about the world.
It does sound interesting, but also unlikely that this will ever happen if we're being honest here. I mean, creating a boss monster and a dungeon that the player might not ever see is... a bit of a shame. I do have to say though, Twilight Princess did actually have a lot of optional stuff... small caves you needed to navigate, one with a delightful sliding block-puzzle, and some that aren't even inside caves, like a spin-wheel puzzle in between 2 plateau's.
What just sucks is that these things are all optional to not scare away players who pick up a game and DON'T want to do any puzzling, just see Link swing his sword about. I can't tell you if these exist, but Nintendo sure has them covered. The BIG downside of this is that any Legend of Zelda world just feels less interconnected, especially when you are doing a playthrough where you aren't interested in 'getting all the heart-pieces'.
But then again, I still stand firm that every first playthrough of Zelda is just awesome, probably due to the fact that every puzzle is still new and fresh. When you think about it Zelda is a weird francise, with a story and mechanic that seem like they fit multiple playthroughs but puzzles that, from their very nature, are only fun the first times. Perhaps that explains why these games conflict with our feelings for them when we put them under close scrutiny: the big picture is nothing to look at. But the moments we lived in the game are precious and dear to us. You don't wanna know how many times I picked up windwaker with memories of how great it was and how I put it down again somewhere between the first and second boss because I got bored.
So if I'm right (I did no research for this, remember that), do yourself a favour. Buy breath of the wild, play it, and never talk about it again. It might be the best in the long run.
What a thought provoking and well researched video, seems like the algorithm has been keeping you off my radar but wow man!
Top notch video Mark, keen observations and dead-on assessment. Captures the exciting and reminiscent worthy qualities of Twilight Princess while also explaining the lack of replay value - besides the bloated opening sequence, of course.
Don’t know if you’ll get to reading this, but they’re my thoughts. And they come from someone who absolutely loves your channel.
I can’t help but think that there are fundamental flaws in this series. If the research began with the idea to find what the “magic of Zelda dungeons” is, and during the study, we find that the magic (which you determined is non-linearity) is notably absent in several dungeons of several games, then how was it even detected in the first place? If the absence of this magic: the thing that makes Zelda dungeons fun, was not noticeable until a thorough investigation-if it wasn’t already apparent that the supposed weaker dungeons were lacking, then non linearity cannot possibly be the one special quality of Zelda dungeons. The only reason we are having the sudden realization that dungeons in windwaker for instance are weak, is because we arbitrarily defined strength as being non linear at an earlier stage of research
Although I do greatly respect and appreciate the content and the effort put into it, I cannot see the way that you measure a dungeon’s quality as valid. I feel that in the pursuit of measuring a dungeon’s linearity, other major factors that contribute to the experience of the dungeon have been ignored, such as the creative use of items, or puzzles that require an understanding of a particular room’s layout, rather than the entire dungeon’s.
I am very impressed with your presentation, and the innovation of the dungeon graph is fantastic for discussing or comparing the complexity of dungeon layouts objectively. This series has let us all take a big step into better understanding level design, but I cannot say that it is the conclusive analysis.
I may at some point attempt to study the dungeons myself, and perhaps add to our understanding, as your work is quite inspiring.
"inoffensive" is the perfect word to describe TP in general. It's so profoundly average. Impressively okay. It dares not take a single risk in its design even as it pushes this mid-2000's "edgy" aesthetic. People wanted a mature Link, they get a mature Link. People wanted a big overworld, they get a big overworld. People wanted some fancy sword stuff, they get some fancy sword stuff. It seems designed by fan polls to actually be what all of us Americans were whining for after Wind Waker...and as a result, it doesn't have any actual identity or personality. It doesn't reflect any artistic vision or design ethos, besides fanservice.
Max Moran I think you are very wrong.
Halfire Good argument
Max Moran I liked it though.
Which I don't understand. There's already a dark zelda game, and the best one in my opinion: Majora's Mask. Twilight Princess is just what you said: edgy. It's "I'm 14 and this is dark"
As you said, it was because people were upset at windwaker and supposedly nintendo was going to end the Zelda franchise if TP didnt do well, which it did due to not having anything controversial. Consequently, the game also didnt have anything particularly innovative either.
I LIKE the sliding block puzzles! A couple of them were actually challenging in this game, at least more so than the ones in other games.
I know this video is 3 years old but something a lot of people don't realize is you can get the poes in arbiters grounds in varying order. Sure most people get them in the same order but you don't have to so that's kinda cool.
it actually gives you more freedom than the poes in the forest temple. amy requires one poe sister defeated because of a small key and meg can only be fought when the other three are defeated. nearly every dungeon has some non linear moments, but they are generally small. the most linear is palace of twilight.
For me, it’s the atmosphere and Overall tone and personality of each location what makes the dungeons in this game the best in the series. While some of them have a similar layout, the dungeons didn’t need to have complex layouts, as the complexity comes from you as the player and the wonder of the experience, something which in my opinion in this situation is far more rewarding and fun to play and experience. The atmosphere is top in this game.