I've always liked all the weird extra experimental stuff - right back from when "Maximum Tech" and the "Tactical Handbook" were published. One was never beholden to play with it - you just set your game in a time and a place where you were comfortable but if you wanted to go down a rabbit hole of complexity, then oh what a journey you could have ;-)
Thank you for the review of this book, as I had been on the fence about it (with it being an il Khan era book). But seeing that it will be of use to campaigns for previous eras moves this into a "Yes". Thanks!
Nice review! I was happy you appreciated how the TRO was about transporting the Classics into CGL's here and now - in every which way. Not only did the Mechs need to remain WYSIWYG, the new builds also needed to feel like what the OG Classics felt like in a 3025 environment. Finally, you also picked up on the simplicity, which was achieved by deliberately restricting the tech to that found in the BattleMech Manual and by also cutting down on electronic warfare compoments almost entirely. Glad it landed as intended!
@@duskhaunters3025 - Well, I am the product developer of the RecGuide series, so I'm focused on overall content, game stats, planning, and editorial. In this volume, I did co-write Valkyrie, Wolverine, and Atlas with Patrick Wynne.
I really preferred when the lone lacked a house style. The lack if cohesion made sense to me given the mechs were being built by dozens of worlds and different cultures. That said the new art is generally pretty good.
Yeah, I hear ya; the old art had lots of charm. I kind of 'live' this mentality as well, as all my forces have at least one Iron Wind/Ral Partha model. Primarily because I like supporting those companies, but also to showcase the face that 'Mechs are made at different factories/in different eras and therefore have slightly different designs.
The Valkyrie was one of those 'mechs that made me ask. "What's the point of intentionally removing a hand actuator, if space (or weapon type) is not the issue?" I mean I sort of get the whole "Make it look derivative enough that copyright is no longer an issue." but at the same time... why? It's goofy inconsistent stuff like this I wish they'd address in construction rule updates. I think there does need to be an ilClan starter box with a streamlined list of weapons. Especially weapons that don't widely appear in the Clan Invasion and adjacent eras. I think if you get 10-15 designs (half of which are based on older designs) using the new tech it'll be less of an issue. TSEMPs seem extremely hard to use. It sucks having your Mech shutdown, but it seems like the majority of the time it will be +2 heat. Which is not a great selling point for the TSEMP.
I am playing BattleTech with my 5 year old son, so we're sticking to just playing Alpha Strike for now, and even then we simplify even that (don't use internal structure or critical hits until our last game). However, Alpha Strike doesn't make each machine seem all that unique. They lack character. It was done that way to keep it fast playing so you can have a bunch on the table. But, they're all sort of boring. One thing I have found that might be a bit controversial, but it is another copycat game rulebook called MechaForce: Tactical Combat Game. It is CLEARLY meant to be BattleTech, but it is a rules lite version. It sits right in between BattleTech and Alpha Strike in complexity. The game does have individual weapons, though not many (two guns, two energy weapons, two missile weapons), but they're still individual. An Archer will have four smaller energy lasers, and two big missile launchers. There are no hit locations, but there are critical hits. It doesn't do Clans or super tech, though. It is basic gameplay only. Like you, I prefer to play in 3025 era, aka the Third Succession War. It lasted 160 years, so if you were born in the year 2900 and lived 100 years old to see the year 3000, you would have been born in a war that was already 40 years old, and die with 25 years still left to go to until peace time. Generations were born, lived, fought, survived, and died during that war. That is enough for me.
Nice! Glad you've found a happy medium. I'd also recommend Overdrive by Death From Above, which is a fantastic half way rule set between AS and Classic.
The "hard counter" armor/weapon pairs really work in a campaign setting IMO. If I KNOW I'm playing a series of games as or against Dark Age-era DCMS for example, it adds to the setting/atmosphere/meta-game of force selection and management across the campaign to slowly fold in the advanced tech as, well ADVANCED tech deployed in direct response to a known threat. If you're playing one-off or pickup games, it's just a pain in the neck and/or entirely pointless since you don't really have the information needed to make those choices.
Several excellent discussion points Dom. I agree that the rapid tech acceleration during the WoB/Terran Hege…I mean Republic period can cause a lot of confusion and unnecessary complexity especially for newer players like me. One thing you did not mention - is there anything in this book that wasn’t already published in the ilClan rec guides?
I only have access to a few of those new rec guides (as IlKhan is still slightly alien to me). My guess is that these 'Mechs and their designs were covered, as there were dozens of those guides, right? I think this book goes into far more detail on the 'Mechs/MechWarriors though, which I doubt would have been covered in the new rec guides.
@@duskhaunters3025 There were 31 total rec guides. They were really good for not only the updated mech designs but the character writeups across multiple eras. I think those were a way for Catalyst to satisfy the backer character backlog from before. Will be interesting to see how they do that this time around.
U can't have the lore without the differences and advances in tech and such...if ukno all the old school rules of dnd the battletech system is no different... That's why I recommend the game always be played role play WITH a referee, or dm. Lots of the elements u find difficult to play with are easily rectified with the dm calling most of the rules and the gameplay. My way of playing is of course, the rules must b agreed upon by the players, esp. If 1v1. But role-playing allows the dm to come up with forces and things that are out of the players hands..making a smoother game, imo. Playing the game like warhammer or checkers is not the funnest way to play for long term play.
@@duskhaunters3025 The fictional me has an entry on Sarna while the real me doesn't yet despite having articles in multiple issues of Shrapnel. I'm a victim of editor preferences!
There is a HUGE problem in expanding the scenario so far away. Of course is a way to bring New things to the universe (groups, novels, characters, New mechs etc) but in general don't bring New mehanics to the core game. Clan invasion scenario did that part to the tabletop (Double heat sinks, better weapons , etc) and that IS why had a good reception (mostly). Why somebody would play the recent eras? We don't even have the mechs in plastic to play! And the mechanics didn't change like Clan Invasion Era. I would love for a Classics LINE of products. CGL could stop the advancing in the storyline and say, now that we have a Historical Book that covers ALL the history of Battletech (universal book from the kickstarter) lets give some love to the old eras when the novels, swags, characters wheren't so professional and i can say so good because they didn't have the whole pictures. This will give them also some time to keep in track to designs and produce mechs for the current storyline until ilkhan. If they don't they will have a fan base in one era, the avids reader in another and the designers in the Future eras! I vote for a Classic LINE (not Reboot) giving some content/love for Golden age, after that sucession Wars, after that Clan Invasion and so on. There is no reason to advance after ilkhan If the technology (stories) and mechanics (tabletop) are still the same...
The TSEMP is what you are thinking of and yes that is a bad game system for any game. Removing control from the other player is normally a very bad thing for the community as it can be abusive thinking 40k Siren's Song and Lash of Submission. Now most rules are not the bad outside of some special ammo. The issue with doing heavy limitation in Ilclan is that you basically warp and heavily distort the mechs that are already have built in restrictions and costs for that equipment and you might as well as play 3050. I think a good rule is to restrict "mechs" with TSEMP or other key systems that just make the game not fun. My problem is that the record sheets work great for 3025 but need a redesign with helpful notes or reminders for advanced equipment to help players of all levels of experience. I know there is Flech sheets but is that supporting copyright infringement? The Ilclan is important as it is really CGL's take on the game vs just copy pasting content from the past. I know Randell said we will not see new tech for a while as we have enough for now. In this book the first mech is a Ilclan version of the classic that is found in the old TRO and the second is clantech or mixed tech version. Now something like with was done in the past with "The Old is the New, New" where they gave new neat updated versions of older mechs but that was Blakist era. The one area I was very disappointed is that CGL did not do a Rec Guide update for the Proliferation Cycle mechs even though those mechs had new designs in "The Old is the New, New" mostly because I feel those are some of the best sculpts to be released in a while. I would have payed $5 for a PDF with updated content for the Proliferation Cycle.
Ah, yes, that's it, the TSEMP. Flechs isn't infringement, but it's in an awkward place as there is legal discussion over what constitutes a digital resource, which is technically Microsoft's domain. It's complicated and a result of the IP split, but thus far FLECHS is allowed to continue.
This kind of pisses me off , 1. I don't even know this book exists 2. What's wrong with the Succession Wars , Clan Invasion , Jihad and Dark Ages technical readouts I just got or my TROs from 30 odd years ago .
oh, it's not 4th succesion war/clan invasion? I'll pass, the "Classics" had me thinking that it was, you know, classic. I bounced off the game post invasion. There's just to much sillyness and too many weapons. I prefer to imagine nothing post fedcom civil war exists.
![[UNCUT] ชาวบ้านถาม “นายกอุ๊งอิ๊งค์” ประชาชนมีกิน มีใช้ กี่โมง? I คนดังนั่งเคลียร์ I 16 ส.ค. 67](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/tKZvOzLIJJc/mqdefault.jpg)
I've always liked all the weird extra experimental stuff - right back from when "Maximum Tech" and the "Tactical Handbook" were published. One was never beholden to play with it - you just set your game in a time and a place where you were comfortable but if you wanted to go down a rabbit hole of complexity, then oh what a journey you could have ;-)
Thank you for the review of this book, as I had been on the fence about it (with it being an il Khan era book). But seeing that it will be of use to campaigns for previous eras moves this into a "Yes". Thanks!
I shall send this comment to CGL, and they can put me on commission :P
Nice review! I was happy you appreciated how the TRO was about transporting the Classics into CGL's here and now - in every which way. Not only did the Mechs need to remain WYSIWYG, the new builds also needed to feel like what the OG Classics felt like in a 3025 environment. Finally, you also picked up on the simplicity, which was achieved by deliberately restricting the tech to that found in the BattleMech Manual and by also cutting down on electronic warfare compoments almost entirely. Glad it landed as intended!
Loved it, Johannes! Which 'Mechs did you write for?
@@duskhaunters3025 - Well, I am the product developer of the RecGuide series, so I'm focused on overall content, game stats, planning, and editorial. In this volume, I did co-write Valkyrie, Wolverine, and Atlas with Patrick Wynne.
I really preferred when the lone lacked a house style. The lack if cohesion made sense to me given the mechs were being built by dozens of worlds and different cultures. That said the new art is generally pretty good.
Yeah, I hear ya; the old art had lots of charm.
I kind of 'live' this mentality as well, as all my forces have at least one Iron Wind/Ral Partha model. Primarily because I like supporting those companies, but also to showcase the face that 'Mechs are made at different factories/in different eras and therefore have slightly different designs.
Interesting. I didnt know about this.
The Valkyrie was one of those 'mechs that made me ask. "What's the point of intentionally removing a hand actuator, if space (or weapon type) is not the issue?" I mean I sort of get the whole "Make it look derivative enough that copyright is no longer an issue." but at the same time... why? It's goofy inconsistent stuff like this I wish they'd address in construction rule updates.
I think there does need to be an ilClan starter box with a streamlined list of weapons. Especially weapons that don't widely appear in the Clan Invasion and adjacent eras. I think if you get 10-15 designs (half of which are based on older designs) using the new tech it'll be less of an issue.
TSEMPs seem extremely hard to use. It sucks having your Mech shutdown, but it seems like the majority of the time it will be +2 heat. Which is not a great selling point for the TSEMP.
Honestly, I can't imagine taking a TSEMP over a PPC or Plasma Rifle. Ever.
I am playing BattleTech with my 5 year old son, so we're sticking to just playing Alpha Strike for now, and even then we simplify even that (don't use internal structure or critical hits until our last game). However, Alpha Strike doesn't make each machine seem all that unique. They lack character. It was done that way to keep it fast playing so you can have a bunch on the table. But, they're all sort of boring.
One thing I have found that might be a bit controversial, but it is another copycat game rulebook called MechaForce: Tactical Combat Game. It is CLEARLY meant to be BattleTech, but it is a rules lite version. It sits right in between BattleTech and Alpha Strike in complexity. The game does have individual weapons, though not many (two guns, two energy weapons, two missile weapons), but they're still individual. An Archer will have four smaller energy lasers, and two big missile launchers. There are no hit locations, but there are critical hits. It doesn't do Clans or super tech, though. It is basic gameplay only.
Like you, I prefer to play in 3025 era, aka the Third Succession War. It lasted 160 years, so if you were born in the year 2900 and lived 100 years old to see the year 3000, you would have been born in a war that was already 40 years old, and die with 25 years still left to go to until peace time. Generations were born, lived, fought, survived, and died during that war. That is enough for me.
Nice! Glad you've found a happy medium.
I'd also recommend Overdrive by Death From Above, which is a fantastic half way rule set between AS and Classic.
I agree with what you said about the different armor types. I think that kind of thing works better in a video game rather then a table top game.
I tried it once with the Hammerhead...completely forgot about the special armour rules ;) my fault entirely obviously, but still frustrating.
The "hard counter" armor/weapon pairs really work in a campaign setting IMO. If I KNOW I'm playing a series of games as or against Dark Age-era DCMS for example, it adds to the setting/atmosphere/meta-game of force selection and management across the campaign to slowly fold in the advanced tech as, well ADVANCED tech deployed in direct response to a known threat. If you're playing one-off or pickup games, it's just a pain in the neck and/or entirely pointless since you don't really have the information needed to make those choices.
Yeah, I think that's fair. I'm also sure if I played with the special equipment more, I'd remember to use it ;)
Several excellent discussion points Dom. I agree that the rapid tech acceleration during the WoB/Terran Hege…I mean Republic period can cause a lot of confusion and unnecessary complexity especially for newer players like me. One thing you did not mention - is there anything in this book that wasn’t already published in the ilClan rec guides?
I only have access to a few of those new rec guides (as IlKhan is still slightly alien to me). My guess is that these 'Mechs and their designs were covered, as there were dozens of those guides, right? I think this book goes into far more detail on the 'Mechs/MechWarriors though, which I doubt would have been covered in the new rec guides.
@@duskhaunters3025 There were 31 total rec guides. They were really good for not only the updated mech designs but the character writeups across multiple eras. I think those were a way for Catalyst to satisfy the backer character backlog from before. Will be interesting to see how they do that this time around.
It's a compilation only. There is no new content in the print TRO. (Well, apart from chapter intros with new illos and a lovely cover.)
U can't have the lore without the differences and advances in tech and such...if ukno all the old school rules of dnd the battletech system is no different...
That's why I recommend the game always be played role play WITH a referee, or dm. Lots of the elements u find difficult to play with are easily rectified with the dm calling most of the rules and the gameplay.
My way of playing is of course, the rules must b agreed upon by the players, esp. If 1v1. But role-playing allows the dm to come up with forces and things that are out of the players hands..making a smoother game, imo.
Playing the game like warhammer or checkers is not the funnest way to play for long term play.
I think this is the best TRO to date, and not just because of the contents of Page 51.
Ha! Just checked the TRO...nice Easter Egg for us :)
@@duskhaunters3025 The fictional me has an entry on Sarna while the real me doesn't yet despite having articles in multiple issues of Shrapnel. I'm a victim of editor preferences!
There is a HUGE problem in expanding the scenario so far away. Of course is a way to bring New things to the universe (groups, novels, characters, New mechs etc) but in general don't bring New mehanics to the core game. Clan invasion scenario did that part to the tabletop (Double heat sinks, better weapons , etc) and that IS why had a good reception (mostly). Why somebody would play the recent eras? We don't even have the mechs in plastic to play! And the mechanics didn't change like Clan Invasion Era. I would love for a Classics LINE of products. CGL could stop the advancing in the storyline and say, now that we have a Historical Book that covers ALL the history of Battletech (universal book from the kickstarter) lets give some love to the old eras when the novels, swags, characters wheren't so professional and i can say so good because they didn't have the whole pictures. This will give them also some time to keep in track to designs and produce mechs for the current storyline until ilkhan. If they don't they will have a fan base in one era, the avids reader in another and the designers in the Future eras! I vote for a Classic LINE (not Reboot) giving some content/love for Golden age, after that sucession Wars, after that Clan Invasion and so on. There is no reason to advance after ilkhan If the technology (stories) and mechanics (tabletop) are still the same...
Fair point.
The TSEMP is what you are thinking of and yes that is a bad game system for any game. Removing control from the other player is normally a very bad thing for the community as it can be abusive thinking 40k Siren's Song and Lash of Submission. Now most rules are not the bad outside of some special ammo. The issue with doing heavy limitation in Ilclan is that you basically warp and heavily distort the mechs that are already have built in restrictions and costs for that equipment and you might as well as play 3050. I think a good rule is to restrict "mechs" with TSEMP or other key systems that just make the game not fun. My problem is that the record sheets work great for 3025 but need a redesign with helpful notes or reminders for advanced equipment to help players of all levels of experience. I know there is Flech sheets but is that supporting copyright infringement?
The Ilclan is important as it is really CGL's take on the game vs just copy pasting content from the past. I know Randell said we will not see new tech for a while as we have enough for now. In this book the first mech is a Ilclan version of the classic that is found in the old TRO and the second is clantech or mixed tech version. Now something like with was done in the past with "The Old is the New, New" where they gave new neat updated versions of older mechs but that was Blakist era. The one area I was very disappointed is that CGL did not do a Rec Guide update for the Proliferation Cycle mechs even though those mechs had new designs in "The Old is the New, New" mostly because I feel those are some of the best sculpts to be released in a while. I would have payed $5 for a PDF with updated content for the Proliferation Cycle.
Ah, yes, that's it, the TSEMP.
Flechs isn't infringement, but it's in an awkward place as there is legal discussion over what constitutes a digital resource, which is technically Microsoft's domain. It's complicated and a result of the IP split, but thus far FLECHS is allowed to continue.
This kind of pisses me off , 1. I don't even know this book exists 2. What's wrong with the Succession Wars , Clan Invasion , Jihad and Dark Ages technical readouts I just got or my TROs from 30 odd years ago .
5:18 in Catalysts defence they are American so the terrible grammar , typos and the refusal to spell basic words correctly is expected .
Ha! You may say that, I couldn't possibly comment :P
oh, it's not 4th succesion war/clan invasion? I'll pass, the "Classics" had me thinking that it was, you know, classic. I bounced off the game post invasion. There's just to much sillyness and too many weapons. I prefer to imagine nothing post fedcom civil war exists.
I used to feel this way, but they are starting to fix things for the traditional players in the ilkhan era.