As a 4 decades long Maggie lover, I have learned to stop thinking of them as a normal speaker projecting sound into the room like drivers in a box. I think of them as the drivers and the room is the inside of the cabinet. They energize the rooms air pressure instead of just throwing it at you like driver in a box does. Wendel called it Power response I believe. Walk around a room using them and no matter where you are you will hear a coherent representation of the music.
The $995 I spent for the LRS+ is the best money I’ve ever spent. I like how Magnepan is becoming more experimental and open to new ideas in this next phase of their business. Personally I don’t need any more bass than what the panels provide. I’ve learned what actual instruments sound like and enjoy Magnepan’s accurate representation of these sounds.
I have original LRSs. I use a Minidsp SHD to cross them over to two 18" open baffle subs. I also use the SHD to run Dirac. I can't compare to other systems, but the SHD and subs made a huge improvement in my system. The cost to do all of that is much less than what is being talked about.
Agreed - I'm thinking you can do all the DSP/crossovers with the miniDSP model of your choice for less than a grand. If it's truly an open architecture then it should be platform agnostic re. DSP/crossover implementation.
Thanks Tom! As a Martin Logan owner (a pair from the Masterpiece series), I can appreciate what our Magnepan friends are experimenting with. It won't be as 'compact' a footprint as the ML's have been all these years, but, perhaps the Maggies will be designed in a way to integrate a bass module that work for them. Great preview, and I look forward to the listening impressions heard from the DSP / electronics at AXPONA.
I recently replaced my 11 year-old Maggie 12Q/R speakers with a pair of Eminent Technology LFT8bs, and the sound improvement was exceptional. And for $3200 a pair, they may be the best value today for planer magnetic speakers! (H/T to The Audiophiliac for turning me on to the LFT8bs.)
I have had the ETs like you mention for years and felt no need to seek something else. Bruce Thigpen's design really is a amazing one that delivers the very highest value in loudspeakers for me.
@@Fred-ql3gq Bruce was several months behind on my order when he graciously offered to give me the 8cs (which he had a pair in stock) for the same price. It was tempting, of course, but Bruce was such a nice guy during the whole ordeal that I declined - and I still pretty good about it. Great guy, and great speakers.
The Hypex Fusion plate amplifiers with integrated crossovers work beautifully with the Magnepan speakers and the cost is very reasonable. There is zero wiring mess from separate amps and crossover boxes. The Hypex Fusion 502 integrated with the 3.7i transformed the speaker into a very accurate reference level speaker. Gone were the humps in the response and off axis response issues. The series passive crossovers were inadequate for the job to say the least, and produced bad horizontal radiation patterns due to the overlap of driver responses.
Great video. Having been around the audio block for a while, open and modular is definitely the best strategy to take and DSP is the future of audio. I foresee ultra high end cut to more down to earth pricing when DSP driven systems hit full stride. Kudos to Magnepan for staying true to its value oriented ethos and to Absolute Sound being the old friend to many senior audiophiles like me.
I don't think that vintage audio will come down in pricing, any time soon, just because of the increasing prevalence of DSP - hard core traditionalists will always want their analog experience, which continues to support thousands of speaker manufacturers, tube amp builders, and "Saudi yacht" turntable fabricators.
@@abboberg The DSP I foresee doesn't touch analog sources at all. Rather, it will be an active solution that will intelligently "create" the synergy between speakers, amplification and room acoustics. The processed synergy will enhance the analog experience to a degree of consistent musicality unachievable otherwise, at a fraction of the cost of high end systems. This will impact their entire business model.
@sonusancti I agree - bringing the cost down of the ultimate psychoacoustic tech is the goal. It's amazing what we currently have available in active monitors with DSP control. It's only going to get better.
Had my first maggies in 1978... have had them ever since... currently running the 1.7i with krell, audio research and schitt dac... REL sub... this was the best breakdown of maggies and options I've seen... thanks. BTW, I coveted my Absolute Sound mag for years... thanks for fifty years of excellence
Thank you for the info, I like that Magnepan is looking to innovation. I hope they continue to offer a speaker in the market range offthe MMG, LRS, now LRS+ and let us add a sub or not if we want. $20k is way out of my budget. I want to spend $3-5k for amp (integrated or seperate), DAC, and speaker. FYI my MMGs likely have over 35,000 hours of playing time. Conservate estimate 9,000 hours over the past 4 years. They are dual purpose in a 5.1 surround. No repairs.
That moment when you are watching a professional’s assessment of my favorite speaker brand’s moves in the marketplace. And then he says it… “out of phase” Your spine tingles as you realize an Absolute Sound calibration CD long lost that I bought in 1999, I used that CD to calibrate MY Magnepans throughout the years. THANK YOU TOM MARTIN! You’ve walked around my room with your ‘voice coming clearly from between my loudspeakers’ more times than I can count!! (And lovely to connect your voice, face, and name)❤
As Tom explains, Maggies are not for everyone - their physical presence in the room, power requirements and lack of bass being the main reasons. That said, their mid-range and treble clarity, especially for the price have made them popular for decades. I appreciate Tom explaining the next generation of Maggie products and, listing, in his usual clear and honest manner, the possible downsides (even more presence in the room, a snake pit of cables and at least one more box on the rack). I would appreciate more videos like this from Tom.
I've had my Maggie 1.6's since 2005. I've been biamping them with tubes on midrange and treble with transistors on bass along with stereo subwoofers.The 1.6's have biamp and biwire terminals that's why I can biamp them this way. That makes me already ahead of game on that note.The 1.7's have only a single set of terminals and have to be biamped with monoblocks. What they are planning in the video sounds great and biamping has always been the way to go with Magnepans, especially with the larger models. Maggie's have always been, and will remain a high end product.
I’ve found that my Carver true subwoofer blends seamlessly with my 3.6R’s and gives me all the bass I need without any room resonances that I can hear. This is probably because 90% of my music listening is with acoustic instruments playing jazz, blues, small group classical and even yacht rock. If you are a listener to this type of music and you can handle the other issues of size and placement , then I can’t think of a better company than Magnapan because their speakers deliver excellent not just high-quality sound.
Maggie's always were considered really nice high-end speakers by many audiophiles, ever since the Tympani multi-panel models, and especially when they first introduced the fabulous true hf ribbons in the MG-IIIr model. I liked them a lot, despite the obvious limitations. Thank you for the informative updates video!
The 1.7i costs in Europe 4500 euro/dollar. I bought a good pair of 1.6QR for 700. No box speaker can beat them for this money and a lot more. The bass is very powerfull and clear. This is my experience as a pro musician with a lot of experience. The only negative is you need a big power amp. I payed 2000 for an Ayre V6 with 2x300 watt's.
I bought a pair of Maggies after watching your LRS+ video from a while back. I have been very happy with them & they do mostly disapear, have agreat soundstage & I think their bass is fine without a subwoofer.
As a Magnepan lover on a budget, but with a "scientific" approach - I appreciate the informed and balanced presentation of the topic, I agree with all being said and have had similar ideas from my own experimentation. I think the biggest challenge for market success at the given price range is the visual impact of this arrangement - the "Frankenstein" - as referred to in the cited review. This is a no-compromise setup for no-compromise enthusiasts.
My first "high end speaker" choice was easy when I heard and purchased 2bs. The next 40 years included quad63s, Snell As, and others. Always kinda searching for that first impression from long ago. I decided to buy the magnapans again, but the bass was still a missing element. This new program looks great, but I already got the eminate technology LFT8C. Very similar to the final setup here so I know I would love this system presented here. Thanks for this video. I haven't looked for or at TAS since the 90s.
Why do you believe that 3 to 500 W per channel is what Maggie’s really needs to drive them? My AUDIO research 100 W amplifier has done the job admirably. Now I am using a 100 W per channel Galion solid-state amplifier with my 3.6 R’s with an incredibly beefy power supply and the sound of my system is now magical. That amplifier cost $1500. This is a review that you should be doing in the future.
Adding expensive woofer columns sound great but I would think a far better and cost efficient solution would be to add 1 or 2 HSU subs… HSU subs only cost 800.00 each delivered.. Eminent Technology speakers are a great alternative…
The columns operate on the same dipole principle as the panels themselves, creating a similar radiating pattern. That's the point. Dipole subs do not suffer from room modes as much as conventional ones.
Certainly the Dipole Sub implemented here is of GR Research origin. I believe Mr. Richie has regular contact with people at Magnepan & Danville/Hollis Audio Labs.
My third comment… As a senior who is very happy with the sound of his music system, I see a system in your room with no wiring versus the system I saw in The Audio Bells home and this just further leads me to believe that home theater is a disaster for listeners and viewers for like me but great for manufacturers. Anybody who wants a mess like that or even the best that you could do with system integrity by trying to clean up the mess of these wires properly making you’re listening room look a little better, then knock yourself out. I’ll stay old-fashioned and go to listen quite to live music which is where I want to put my money. Reproduced music can sound better in many cases than live but there’s nothing like the energy of being in a live venue listening to and seeing the musicians do their thing.
My cheap version of this setup is a pair of 1.7s and a pair of Svs SB3000 subs. With custom stands for the 1.7s I have the 1.7s mounted directly over each sub so it resembles a ML. The crossover and dsp is handled by a Minidsp SHD. The streamer is a Zidoo Alpha using Tidal and a pair of Merrell Audio Veritus monoblocs powering the 1.7s. I have the crossover set up so the 1.7s play up from 60hz and the subs play down from 80hz on a low slope. Just playing around and keeping it budget minded. Next is a GR research crossover upgrade for the 1.7.
Hi Tom, I have a pair of the Axiom LFR1100 Active speakers. They have 5 channels of amplification per speaker and a separate DSP unit per speaker. They have rear firing drivers in addition to the front array. They are a very interesting design and sound pretty darn good. You may want to check them out.
I have the budget version of this and it's absolutely amazing: -Magnepan LRS+ - $1000 -Schiit Vidar 2 (400W @ 8Ohm) - $800 -Rhythmik F12 sevro sub with DSP crossover - $800 -GR Research LRS+ crossover upgrade - $300 I don't think it's possible to build a better system under $10k, perhaps even much higher.
GR Research also sells open baffle subs based on the same driver/amp/DSP in the Rhythmik subs FYI. I was still able to get it to disappear perfectly with the sealed box though and get more BOOM that way.
Did you take any pictures of how you placed the LRS+ crossover upgrade parts in the cutout of the cabinet? I'm wondering how to fit them. GR Research did not provide any pictures, just the scheme.
Hello Tom, Thank you for that fantastic preview! I appreciated your high-level, accurate and very thoughtful comments about both Magnepan the company and Magnepan the loudspeaker! Ron Resnick
I sold Maggie’s in med school working part time for a high end store in Toledo Ohio. I have owned multiple models. My last set was a totally rebuilt pair of 1Cs that replaced a $90k pair of YGs. True w I was using a great REL sub with the Maggie’s and Pass amps but my point is that $4000 rebuilt Magnepan panel blew away the YGs as far as sounding like music. People who love live music love Maggie’s because like music is not a point source. I’m saving for 30.7s. No idea if I will opt for the X upgrade. Can’t wait to get that extraordinary sound back!
Sounds a lot like the solution offered by Sound by Sanders using his amp, his electrostatic drivers and his integral subwoofer; although I am intrigued by the manipulations performed in the digital realm. But I like to ‘mess with’ my system; I feel like most want to ‘set it and forget it.’ If the average audiophile (is there an average audiophile?) wants to change out a component or two, a cable, a speaker, etc. to get themselves closer to the sound they seek. That said, most everyone who has heard a planar magnetic or electrostatic speaker has been super impressed, it’s just the lack of expected bass response that turns them away. Witness Steve Gutenberg, the Audiophiliac. I’ve never heard one, but I would very much like to.
IMO the ribbon panels are fantastic. Fast, transparent, very little stored energy to smear sound BUT the crossover designs and cheap crossover components really hold them back. (if you look at response curves....really terrible) I've long wondered why they didn't go to an external crossover. That's what I'm building for my LRS. While Maggies may be a relative bargain, the requirement for big high current amps drives up the total package cost. Don't get me wrong.....some of my favorite speakers ever.
A very interesting concept, especially for Mag fans. One area that they could improve upon without making big changes is the quality of their existing wiring and internal crossovers. With respect to their new strategy, my concern is the mess of wires that are required to make all the connections. Hopefully they will come up with a better integration of all the wiring and electronics because adding 2 more speaker boxes to 2 tall Maggies may look out of sorts in some household spaces.
The Hypex/Purifi 450-500w amps are a revelation with Maggies. My .7s put out plenty of bass in a medium sized room. I haven't tried them in a larger rooms/open living rooms spaces with high ceilings, etc., but I don't think subs are necessary in small/medium rooms with the right DAC and the above mentioned amps. I'd really like to try the newer Purifi with the higher current, but even the cheap Hypex 500w are really impressive with Maggies.
Hi Tom, I think this is a smart move. Maggie’s weak point has been poor Quality, crossovers, floppy frames and insufficient bass slam. I have in the past modified Maggie’s using three 8” subs, active x-overs and frame bracing. I used a pair of Vandersteen five loudspeakers as a reference. I got some really interesting results, and as all engineering has compromises, the jury is out on complexity, add a snake pit of wires and equipment. I love the simplicity of the Vandersteen’s as a one box solution, and I would urge but magnapan to look at this, as one of many options they could provide. I always wondered why they never offered upgraded loudspeakers with better crossover’s, and bracing for the loudspeakers as a result is a much improved speaker, but it is much higher cost. Thank you for another great review.
Not a pipe dream but a continuation of the dipole woofer idea. As a current Maggie owner (20.7’s) it would be awesome if this open architecture was somehow backward compatible to current speakers. I would consider replacing my crossover experimenting with dipole woofers instead of starting over.
I disagree. I have traditional large speakers AND 1.6QR rolling in my 2-ch setup and they require same distance into the room to be able to provide that special 3D-spaciness... Mine are about 4-4.5 feet out... However, putting a Magnepan too close will probably have a larger negative effect that a traditional box speaker... Just my experiences...
@@martinlindberg1983 Exactly. All speakers should be away from room surfaces to provide a good sense of space -- the idea is to delay the room reflections because the ear times them and uses it to determine how big the space is. But it's more critical in back of dipoles. On the other hand, the side walls are less critical because of the dipole null at the sides.
Never heard Magnepans, but I have a pair of 'inexpensive' open back B&O 80s Walkman type headphones, it's the closest thing I've heard to perfect sound, that is to say free from obvious colouration.
I purchased some LR pluses Maggie‘s quite disappointed. I have a 500 W amp. I am preamp obviously’s issue. I did make some improvements. I put a real sub in there and I have a sub line active crossover made a 70% difference still far from satisfactory to my ears, but it made a great improvement for most people, I also added a silver fuse to the crossover and that smooth the high end out on the LSR plus I still find it uncomfortable listening to a lot of music on the Magies since I like hard rock and I’m going to be trading these and I think on the speakers from Tallahassee Florida, I’m not sure their name Anyhow they’re $4600 for the pair and they sound quite good and I think they’re gonna make up for the lack of transparency in the mid range of the Magies anyhow guys. This is just a hobby. Don’t take it too serious and don’t be afraid to spend money if this is your hobby and you’re looking to strive for happiness in your room, good luck guys
Very similar. I spoke to Danny several years ago and he told me he was working with Windal to develop a bass module using smaller drivers. I'm assuming this is the result. I am not sure using smaller drivers in open baffle is going to be the best approach. I want to try My modified 1.7i with 2 open baffle cabinets each with 1x15 and 1×18. I am sure you have played with minidsp units before. How does the Barringer unit you use compare? I was about to pull the trigger on dbx drive rack PA2. I have modified the xovers for the Maggie's but also tempted to start over and make them bi ampable 2 way then incorporate the bottom end using dsp and separate subs. Any thoughts?
@@ufarkingicehole These aren't the woofers Danny was talking about. Those are the UBS and they're designed primarily as a woofer for the forthcoming CSS spouse friendly Maggie (only 12" wide!). Behringer has a bad rep in general. Among other things, they steal other people's designs. I'd stick with MiniDSP. Smaller woofers sound better than large ones. Obviously, though, you have to use a lot of them to move air! If you want dipole bass with extension and slam, larger woofers are he way to go.
Well glad the audio belle showed us the mess that comes with this and made it easy to realize this video was useless to me. Also holy shit there was so much run around filler fluff in this video. Could have made it way more simple. Maybe started off with giving us a scenario to visual a Maggie system with a few extra components and what they would be doing and how it changes the sound. Then tell us what the sound would be like without all these add ons. Then let us know that the later would be a normal magnepan and the former a new incision from magnepan
A very complex system and a significant investment. And an investment of time tweaking the system. In contrast to a 2 way system of equal invest would probably be easier to manage. 25:02
I own the 1.7i and I was thinking about moving up to the 3.7i but when they decided to raise their price substantially to $10k and because of the limited sweet spot I decided not to purchase them.
But, if you already have Magnepan, then you will have to spend big bucks to replace the speakers, amps, dac, and preamp, as well as subwoofers (because who listens to Maggie’s without subwoofers) to obtain a system that may be only marginally better than what you already have. Starting from scratch may be cost effective, but present Maggie owners probably will not be eager to dump their systems.
Agreed.I use sealed subs with mine and they blend fine. The crossover and connection plate are not the greatest and can be modded for better performance. I would rather steer away from all that dsp myself.
It's easy enough to add DSP and electronic crossovers. The earlier models bring some of the drivers out to the back, and are set up to facilitate bi-amping; the current ones don't because the series crossover doesn't facilitate that, but someone who is a bit handy can modify them easily enough.
Saludos, no comparto el enfoque nuevo de MAGNEPAN, eso encarece significativamente los costos finales sin necesidad; yo he comprobado personalmente que por ejemplo los 1.6, dan excelentes frecuencias graves, con la amplificación adecuada, hemos ensayado con diferentes topologías electrónicas y hemos encontrado que amplificación de 200w por canal en clase A, es lo más apropiado para a estos paneles y su sonido es simplemente fantástico. Lo hemos probado con diferentes géneros musicales y en el apartado del rock, bandas como AC/DC, Led Zeppelin, Aerosmith y otras, suenan genial, al igual que grandes sinfonías como la 5 o 9 de Beethoven, las Valquirias de Wagner o complejidades como Kraftwerk. No se porqué los creadores de contenidos se empeñan en mantener mitos, como que MAGNEPAN, carece de bajos, eso es una flagrante mentira. Ahora bien, en la práctica, hay un sinnúmero de Subwoofers, que bien afinados en su configuración, se integran muy bien con MAGNEPAN, facilitando las cosas, por precios básicos. Pero claro, la mal llamada "HIGH END", actual, quiere tirarse todo, y que el sonido fabuloso y adsequible de MAGNEPAN, sea sólo el privilegio de unos cuantos multimillonarios. Espero que Wendell y su esposa y demás integrantes de la familia MAGNEPAN, no se dejen entrampar, por la extravagancia superflua de la mentira actual del HIGH END, y nos priven a la inmensa minoría de seguidores de los paneles magnetostáticos, el privilegio de disfrutar de un sonido excelso como pocos en la historia de la verdadera Alta Fidelidad, abrazos, desde Bogotá, Colombia
For me Tom missed one of the main weaknesses of Magnepan speakers. Most of their drivers are single ended planars. Single ended becomes more and more non linear the more the driver is pushed. This means that when driven hard Maggies will compress sound especially when compared to a good dynamic speaker. Maggies have other virtues, of course, but if you value linear dynamics as I do Maggies have limitations.
Very interesting and well presented, however a couple of thoughts come immediately to mind. Maggie is known to be working on their own subwoofer and have already demonstrated it, so does this mean they aren't bringing it to market for some reason despite the rave reviews it received? And if Maggie thinks an open baffle sub shows such promise, why didn't they design their own, either as an in-house project or in collaboration with one of the open baffle shops already in existence?
I have rebuilt tympani 4as The bass is better but not dynamic. That's ok by me. Marchand crossover. Bryston 7s on bass. Threshold 500 on mids and that ribbon
I have my 3.6 R done dsp active with modified Behringer DCX long times ago, and it didn't cost that much. With dsp active and sub, no more headache with amps power and bass deficiency. But Maggie still come short. I couldn't get really quiet back ground and got limited dynamics and speaker makes rattling noise when I play certain level because cheaply made frame structure. The speaker frame structure can't handle the power and dynamics and should make it stronger and better damping on frame structure.
Most of this is unnecessary. Here is another approach: 1) switch to neodymium magnets in the Maggie panel from rubber magnets, bringing up the sensitivity to a reasonable level. 2) Reduce the height of the planar panel to leave space at the bottom for 2 dipole woofer that mount directly to the main panel under the planar element. This approach, if correctly engineered, would remain passive with good time alignment and sensitivity. Room correction is not needed in a dipole bass system. 3) Implement a much heavier and stiffer frame and decent crossover parts. The resulting design would be less than double the price of the current models, while improving the overall sound and fixing the bass problem, without adding all the complexity and wiring of this open-architecture approach discussed in the video. I am very surprised that open-architecture is their proposed solution after 60 years of production. They can easily solve all of the current issues in-house. Clayton Shaw
This is Danville's system, not Magnepan. Magnepan didn't design and won't be selling it. But to your point -- sure, they could double the price, but who would buy them? There are neo planars out there but they're very expensive. Also, that may not be the best approach from a price-performance level -- merely making the baffle larger will get you more bang for the buck -- MDF is a lot cheaper than neodynium! They offer fancier crossover parts now in the "X" models/mods. Rather than stiffening the frame, get the 20.7's or 30.7's. Those have the dual magnets which increase flux but just as importantly stiffen the structure. I think you'll see them going to aluminum frames in the future and making some other fundamental changes.
Maggie’s do something excellent such as natures timbres buuuuut, they don’t have the texture or saturation a cone speaker has. They don’t throw sound at you the way a cone speaker does. The combination of things really helps a speaker to be more 3 dimensional. They have great separation sure but the real 3 dimension is lacking because of its alternative approach to sound.
They should be more rather than less 3 dimensional, with the sound going back from the speaker to behind your wall. How far from the wall did/do you have them? The further from the front wall of the room, the more depth you'll hear. 3' is the bare minimum.
@@Josh442they have 3 dimensional sound just not the way a normal speaker does it. I play with speaker positioning at least once a week lol. I have pulled them up within 6 feet of me just to take the room out of the equation and get great sound but then I’m not getting the scale I’m able to get out of my very large room.
@@t.j.bennett6454 Are you trying to get the sound in front of the speakers? I've never heard a dipole that could do that. The speakers should be at least 3' from the front wall, preferably 6' or even more. But I think your best bet here may be to put diffusion behind the speakers at the first reflection point (the point at which you'll see them from your listening position if you put a mirror on the front wall). Dipoles are generally at their best that way. What I like about properly set up line sources is that I don't get a sense of a miniature image. It's more like listening through a window to the real space. But 2 channel stereo is always a compromise, so I guess you have to choose the compromise you most like!
A truly open architecture and "being enrolled in the program" don't go together. If this is "open" I should be able to buy the Maggies and use whatever amplification/DSP/crossover solution I want to bring to the table provided it meets the spec. "Enrolled in the program" is not a spec, it's a marketing tactic.
Well Ive been a big fan of Maggies and have sold many models in my years in Audio. Earlier days they where highly considered and always a excellent buy. Yes they are large, dominate the room, and require good amplification to bring out their full potential. But at least the setup was pretty simple clean and not complex. This new system is anything but that. Sure I understand the idea of making Maggies are more serious contender in the high end market but this does not look like a system that many would consider with its space requirements, complexity, and costs. Sorry but don't feel this is a smart move. I hope I'm wrong and they sell tons of these. Also why are the woofers on the inside, makes no sense to me.
I can't believe they are still using those flimsy metal strips as stands for the speakers. This allows the speakers to sway front and back which cancels bass. If they want bass they should develop a stand that keeps them from moving. I like Magnepans but to me they make everything sound larger than life. I went with Acoustat electrostatics instead. I'm very happy with my deep tight bass and no subwoofers.
They're dipoles. What would you expect? They look like figure 8 off axis, with lobing due to the lateral crossover. The lobing is a problem. The DSP XO can change it, but you can't change the position of the drivers. Point source speakers have it too, but since it's vertical, I think it's less of an issue, as long as you're sitting. Anyway, it's always going to be compromise. Dipoles have the advantage of a consistent radiation pattern across the frequency spectrum. No baffle step, though line sources have their own issues. (There are some cool ways to eliminate the lobing, but they're pretty costly.)
I once tried to order Magnepan and the email replies were very amateur and slow to come. It gave me the impression that they are not a real company - just a guy who makes speakers when he feels like it. No thanks.
Quite possibly the most boring discussion ever regarding Magnepan speakers. There was exactly nothing revealed here that resembled anything useful. I mean no disrespect, but this video of “information” was a complete waste of time.
Click bate??? IMO, this episode does not bring anything new on the table. A lot of Magnepan owners already made this "Open Architecture thing" to bring their Maggies to next level. Everybody knows that the slam (for some) is the weakest point in this design. There are a lot of Bang-for-the-buck alternatives out where you add an active XO and a couple of OB subs that does not cost you an arm and a leg... Some get further by surgery by ripping out passive XO and goes fully active, re-build frame work, add supported stands, and so on... I think Magnepan should continue what they do best - give audiophiles cost effective speakers with true audiophile attributes. Cheers!
I could not agree more. Give a great platform, and have it ready to be taken next level by Hobbyists. This also is good for expanding the Magnepan's market share as well. I got into the inexpensive panels, and then moved on up. I also find it hard to understand some folks that rail against it Flat panel speakers. Its not like you have to just pick one and never buy another set that meets your needs for another space or application. Some of these folks seem to think that you are married to them or something. Or have some idea that one speaker type has to be superior. Weird. I don't see people putting Maggie's in their car. (I have but they would not fit LOL)
Jesus , get to the point . Listening to ambiguous blathering ,disguised as anticipatory buildup is like watching Fuckin paint dry with this monotonous,anticlimactic droning character.
It seems like magnepan is admitting their product is best utilized as a driver- not a speaker- a driver, in a complex system using a limited set of external crossovers, multichannel distribution amps, woofers and dsp. If this is the “solution” it’s an admission to a far bigger problem than I ever knew existed (not having owned magnepans). Maybe the exotic-minded tweaker will enjoy this, but the two channel guy looking for a set of speakers to use with an amp, dac and front end he curated himself and already owns (that’s half the fun) is going to pass this by as it seems counter to the core idea of offering a good value proposition.
Magnepan didn't do this and it isn't a Magnepan product. But even if they had, *any* speaker can be improved with DSP and electronic crossovers. This is simply icing on the cake.
@@Josh442 Incorrect. It’s clearly stated that magnepan IS introducing a line of speakers without crossovers in parallel with their traditional line. Why are they doing this? It seems to me that they are making the admission I commented on above.
@@edd2771 Except that Magnepan isn't -- I'm in close contact with them and have been updated on all the interactions. (In fact, I was the one who first suggested that the talk to Danville about another product). Danville has proposed doing this, but Magnepan hasn't agreed. If I haven't said this already, this is *not* a Magnepan product, but a Danville product. They modified their own pair of speakers and told Magnepan. Magnepan agreed to help them with the demo. In any case, as I said, *any* speaker can be improved with DSP and active crossovers. You can simply do things with electronics that you can't do with a mechanical transducer or a passive crossover -- linear phase crossovers, room and driver equalization, etc.
And suddenly you are locked into all kinds of digital manipulation and technology in one box… and limited in your choices… DSP, DAC, class D amp allinone box - done. While that might potentially sound great, I do not know whether I would like to be put in that corner… I am actually fed up with allinone streamer-dac-amps that outdate quickly and do not have an upgrade path. Instead, I am trying to separate everything and can tweak and upgrade or update at any time without having to change „everything“.
Just an FYI, Danville Signal's dspNexus 2/8 is built with plug-in modules so we can always update the DSP, the DAC etc without having to change everything. It was designed that way on purpose.
@@loriannclark9199 that is commendable 👌🏼. My comment was just a general preference. Having gone down the combined road with Naim and having been disappointed with longer-term upgradeability. I am also sure that there is a lot of value in a lot of combined products - and modularity and upgradeability is a good concept - both for the customer and for customer retention. 👏🏼 I will follow developments with interest, having had Maggies and not being sure whether replacing them was the best choice - considering all trade-offs.
I have been a 30 year fan of Magnepan and have a 5.2.4 home theater setup built around 2 pairs of 2.5R and a CC3 Maggie center. I think Magnepan's continued focus on 2 channel systems is a mistake. They'd sell many more speakers if they had better center channel for home theater use. I haven't upgraded my CC3 because they haven't come out with a better solution in 20+ years.
I switched out my maggie center for KEF R2 and blends great with my front 1.7i, much better off axis than mag center as well as more voice clarity. Movies never sounded better in my rig, plus dual REL 1205HT subs.
I don't consider planar speakers like maggies for these reasons: 1) They only deliver a good soundstage when I sit in a specific, small area (other speakers allow for more "wiggle room") 2) Even when you use cone woofers for bass, the maggies I heard have not much dynamics in the mid and high range of frequencies.
It's always going to be a tradeoff. But you should be getting good dynamics in the mids and highs -- the larger ones will play pretty loud. Was the amp undersized? They need a big one.
Why does everyone say no dynamics on maggies, I've had Vandersteen 3A Sig, KEF, KLH Model5, Pioneer and others and the 1.7i has plenty of dynamics and slam, especially with dual REL subs but even without the subs. Plus, the sweet spot on the i series is plenty wide, better than pre i series. Maggies don't sound as good if not sitting down in the sweet spot but still sound great when walking around the room, like for a party, doing dishes in another room etc.
As a 4 decades long Maggie lover, I have learned to stop thinking of them as a normal speaker projecting sound into the room like drivers in a box. I think of them as the drivers and the room is the inside of the cabinet. They energize the rooms air pressure instead of just throwing it at you like driver in a box does. Wendel called it Power response I believe. Walk around a room using them and no matter where you are you will hear a coherent representation of the music.
well described
I’d be really mad if I paid thousands of dollars for speakers and they disappeared!!! 😊
@@unclewilbur8976 My wifey wouldn't. And if I could still hear the music, I would not either actually.
That’s a brilliant way to view it
The $995 I spent for the LRS+ is the best money I’ve ever spent. I like how Magnepan is becoming more experimental and open to new ideas in this next phase of their business. Personally I don’t need any more bass than what the panels provide. I’ve learned what actual instruments sound like and enjoy Magnepan’s accurate representation of these sounds.
Ran anemic 20.7s two years
Integrate 2-Rel Carbon Specials
JLA cr-1 active crossover
Shunyata Python xlr cables
Time alignment is perfect 😊
The LRS is badly flawed. Go read the review on Audio Science Review.
I have original LRSs. I use a Minidsp SHD to cross them over to two 18" open baffle subs. I also use the SHD to run Dirac. I can't compare to other systems, but the SHD and subs made a huge improvement in my system. The cost to do all of that is much less than what is being talked about.
Agreed - I'm thinking you can do all the DSP/crossovers with the miniDSP model of your choice for less than a grand. If it's truly an open architecture then it should be platform agnostic re. DSP/crossover implementation.
Thanks Tom! As a Martin Logan owner (a pair from the Masterpiece series), I can appreciate what our Magnepan friends are experimenting with. It won't be as 'compact' a footprint as the ML's have been all these years, but, perhaps the Maggies will be designed in a way to integrate a bass module that work for them. Great preview, and I look forward to the listening impressions heard from the DSP / electronics at AXPONA.
I recently replaced my 11 year-old Maggie 12Q/R speakers with a pair of Eminent Technology LFT8bs, and the sound improvement was exceptional. And for $3200 a pair, they may be the best value today for planer magnetic speakers! (H/T to The Audiophiliac for turning me on to the LFT8bs.)
I have had the ETs like you mention for years and felt no need to seek something else. Bruce Thigpen's design really is a amazing one that delivers the very highest value in loudspeakers for me.
Have you heard the LFT8's with the new woofer, which gets them to $4500? Just asking.
@@Fred-ql3gq Bruce was several months behind on my order when he graciously offered to give me the 8cs (which he had a pair in stock) for the same price. It was tempting, of course, but Bruce was such a nice guy during the whole ordeal that I declined - and I still pretty good about it. Great guy, and great speakers.
@@Fred-ql3gq no I haven't. might spring for it sometime though.
Yeah, the LFT-8b or the latest LFT-8c models are certainly compelling choices. I might yet order a pair, even unheard. Or just order new Maggies. 🤔👍🍺
The Hypex Fusion plate amplifiers with integrated crossovers work beautifully with the Magnepan speakers and the cost is very reasonable. There is zero wiring mess from separate amps and crossover boxes. The Hypex Fusion 502 integrated with the 3.7i transformed the speaker into a very accurate reference level speaker. Gone were the humps in the response and off axis response issues. The series passive crossovers were inadequate for the job to say the least, and produced bad horizontal radiation patterns due to the overlap of driver responses.
Great video. Having been around the audio block for a while, open and modular is definitely the best strategy to take and DSP is the future of audio.
I foresee ultra high end cut to more down to earth pricing when DSP driven systems hit full stride.
Kudos to Magnepan for staying true to its value oriented ethos and to Absolute Sound being the old friend to many senior audiophiles like me.
I don't think that vintage audio will come down in pricing, any time soon, just because of the increasing prevalence of DSP - hard core traditionalists will always want their analog experience, which continues to support thousands of speaker manufacturers, tube amp builders, and "Saudi yacht" turntable fabricators.
@@abboberg The DSP I foresee doesn't touch analog sources at all. Rather, it will be an active solution that will intelligently "create" the synergy between speakers, amplification and room acoustics. The processed synergy will enhance the analog experience to a degree of consistent musicality unachievable otherwise, at a fraction of the cost of high end systems. This will impact their entire business model.
@sonusancti I agree - bringing the cost down of the ultimate psychoacoustic tech is the goal. It's amazing what we currently have available in active monitors with DSP control. It's only going to get better.
Had my first maggies in 1978... have had them ever since... currently running the 1.7i with krell, audio research and schitt dac... REL sub... this was the best breakdown of maggies and options I've seen... thanks. BTW, I coveted my Absolute Sound mag for years... thanks for fifty years of excellence
Thank you for the info, I like that Magnepan is looking to innovation. I hope they continue to offer a speaker in the market range offthe MMG, LRS, now LRS+ and let us add a sub or not if we want. $20k is way out of my budget. I want to spend $3-5k for amp (integrated or seperate), DAC, and speaker.
FYI my MMGs likely have over 35,000 hours of playing time. Conservate estimate 9,000 hours over the past 4 years. They are dual purpose in a 5.1 surround. No repairs.
That moment when you are watching a professional’s assessment of my favorite speaker brand’s moves in the marketplace. And then he says it… “out of phase”
Your spine tingles as you realize an Absolute Sound calibration CD long lost that I bought in 1999, I used that CD to calibrate MY Magnepans throughout the years.
THANK YOU TOM MARTIN! You’ve walked around my room with your ‘voice coming clearly from between my loudspeakers’ more times than I can count!! (And lovely to connect your voice, face, and name)❤
As Tom explains, Maggies are not for everyone - their physical presence in the room, power requirements and lack of bass being the main reasons. That said, their mid-range and treble clarity, especially for the price have made them popular for decades. I appreciate Tom explaining the next generation of Maggie products and, listing, in his usual clear and honest manner, the possible downsides (even more presence in the room, a snake pit of cables and at least one more box on the rack). I would appreciate more videos like this from Tom.
I've had my Maggie 1.6's since 2005. I've been biamping them with tubes on midrange and treble with transistors on bass along with stereo subwoofers.The 1.6's have biamp and biwire terminals that's why I can biamp them this way. That makes me already ahead of game on that note.The 1.7's have only a single set of terminals and have to be biamped with monoblocks. What they are planning in the video sounds great and biamping has always been the way to go with Magnepans, especially with the larger models. Maggie's have always been, and will remain a high end product.
Very nice review - I owned a pair of 1.7’s loved them.
I’ve found that my Carver true subwoofer blends seamlessly with my 3.6R’s and gives me all the bass I need without any room resonances that I can hear. This is probably because 90% of my music listening is with acoustic instruments playing jazz, blues, small group classical and even yacht rock. If you are a listener to this type of music and you can handle the other issues of size and placement , then I can’t think of a better company than Magnapan because their speakers deliver excellent not just high-quality sound.
Maggie's always were considered really nice high-end speakers by many audiophiles, ever since the Tympani multi-panel models, and especially when they first introduced the fabulous true hf ribbons in the MG-IIIr model. I liked them a lot, despite the obvious limitations. Thank you for the informative updates video!
The 1.7i costs in Europe 4500 euro/dollar. I bought a good pair of 1.6QR for 700.
No box speaker can beat them for this money and a lot more. The bass is very powerfull and clear. This is my experience as a pro musician with a lot of experience. The only negative is you need a big power amp. I payed 2000 for an Ayre V6 with 2x300 watt's.
I only paid $900 USD for my 340 wpc Perreaux 2150B amp from an eBay seller. It doubles its power into 4 ohms to 680 wpc!
I bought a pair of Maggies after watching your LRS+ video from a while back. I have been very happy with them & they do mostly disapear, have agreat soundstage & I think their bass is fine without a subwoofer.
Anemic 20.7s, 2 years 😮
2-Rel Carbon Specials
JLA cr-1 active crossover
Less Clarisys Auditorium ➕️
As a Magnepan lover on a budget, but with a "scientific" approach - I appreciate the informed and balanced presentation of the topic, I agree with all being said and have had similar ideas from my own experimentation.
I think the biggest challenge for market success at the given price range is the visual impact of this arrangement - the "Frankenstein" - as referred to in the cited review. This is a no-compromise setup for no-compromise enthusiasts.
Wallet is the compromise
Along with room size 😮
Thanks Tom. Appreciate this. Looking forward to it's implementation
My first "high end speaker" choice was easy when I heard and purchased 2bs.
The next 40 years included quad63s, Snell As, and others. Always kinda searching for that first impression from long ago. I decided to buy the magnapans again, but the bass was still a missing element.
This new program looks great, but I already got the eminate technology LFT8C. Very similar to the final setup here so I know I would love this system presented here.
Thanks for this video. I haven't looked for or at TAS since the 90s.
Why do you believe that 3 to 500 W per channel is what Maggie’s really needs to drive them? My AUDIO research 100 W amplifier has done the job admirably. Now I am using a 100 W per channel Galion solid-state amplifier with my 3.6 R’s with an incredibly beefy power supply and the sound of my system is now magical. That amplifier cost $1500. This is a review that you should be doing in the future.
Adding expensive woofer columns sound great but I would think a far better and cost efficient solution would be to add 1 or 2 HSU subs… HSU subs only cost 800.00 each delivered.. Eminent Technology speakers are a great alternative…
The columns operate on the same dipole principle as the panels themselves, creating a similar radiating pattern. That's the point. Dipole subs do not suffer from room modes as much as conventional ones.
@@Munakas-wq3gp
Exactly
The point is for full range dipole propagation.
TOM Bonjour Very nice preview as all the time. i enjoy every minute of it. Best regards
Danny from GR Research helped design this. Its very attainable and hope they follow through
@@user-js2dr9gv1u
Snake oil? Will you elaborate?
Certainly the Dipole Sub implemented here is of GR Research origin. I believe Mr. Richie has regular contact with people at Magnepan & Danville/Hollis Audio Labs.
@@user-js2dr9gv1u Is there a bad review of GR Research Servo Subs you can share with us?
My third comment… As a senior who is very happy with the sound of his music system, I see a system in your room with no wiring versus the system I saw in The Audio Bells home and this just further leads me to believe that home theater is a disaster for listeners and viewers for like me but great for manufacturers. Anybody who wants a mess like that or even the best that you could do with system integrity by trying to clean up the mess of these wires properly making you’re listening room look a little better, then knock yourself out. I’ll stay old-fashioned and go to listen quite to live music which is where I want to put my money. Reproduced music can sound better in many cases than live but there’s nothing like the energy of being in a live venue listening to and seeing the musicians do their thing.
My cheap version of this setup is a pair of 1.7s and a pair of Svs SB3000 subs. With custom stands for the 1.7s I have the 1.7s mounted directly over each sub so it resembles a ML. The crossover and dsp is handled by a Minidsp SHD. The streamer is a Zidoo Alpha using Tidal and a pair of Merrell Audio Veritus monoblocs powering the 1.7s. I have the crossover set up so the 1.7s play up from 60hz and the subs play down from 80hz on a low slope. Just playing around and keeping it budget minded. Next is a GR research crossover upgrade for the 1.7.
Upgrade to 3.7is 😊
True ribbon tweeter
Thanks, interesting exposition. Pls. do more.
Hi Tom, I have a pair of the Axiom LFR1100 Active speakers. They have 5 channels of amplification per speaker and a separate DSP unit per speaker. They have rear firing drivers in addition to the front array. They are a very interesting design and sound pretty darn good. You may want to check them out.
As a guitar player, the most common speaker used in amps are 12". You cannot expect a 5 to 8 inch speaker to replicate them. Just a thought.
Ran anemic 20.7s couple years
Added 2-Rel Carbon Specials
JLA cr-1 active crossover 😊
Shunyata Research Python xlr's
The 12" is for resonance, sensitivity, tone, and projection.
Not for low frequency capability.
@@FOH3663 I was talking about a 12" fullrange driver.
@@duncan.5228
Got it
Excellent info, thank you.
I have the budget version of this and it's absolutely amazing:
-Magnepan LRS+ - $1000
-Schiit Vidar 2 (400W @ 8Ohm) - $800
-Rhythmik F12 sevro sub with DSP crossover - $800
-GR Research LRS+ crossover upgrade - $300
I don't think it's possible to build a better system under $10k, perhaps even much higher.
GR Research also sells open baffle subs based on the same driver/amp/DSP in the Rhythmik subs FYI. I was still able to get it to disappear perfectly with the sealed box though and get more BOOM that way.
Did you take any pictures of how you placed the LRS+ crossover upgrade parts in the cutout of the cabinet? I'm wondering how to fit them. GR Research did not provide any pictures, just the scheme.
Hello Tom,
Thank you for that fantastic preview! I appreciated your high-level, accurate and very thoughtful comments about both Magnepan the company and Magnepan the loudspeaker!
Ron Resnick
I sold Maggie’s in med school working part time for a high end store in Toledo Ohio. I have owned multiple models. My last set was a totally rebuilt pair of 1Cs that replaced a $90k pair of YGs. True w
I was using a great REL sub with the Maggie’s and Pass amps but my point is that $4000 rebuilt Magnepan panel blew away the YGs as far as sounding like music. People who love live music love Maggie’s because like music is not a point source. I’m saving for 30.7s. No idea if I will opt for the X upgrade. Can’t wait to get that extraordinary sound back!
Will this be in a "Secret Room" again at Axpona ? What happened to the new Sub woofer I heard ?
Sounds a lot like the solution offered by Sound by Sanders using his amp, his electrostatic drivers and his integral subwoofer; although I am intrigued by the manipulations performed in the digital realm. But I like to ‘mess with’ my system; I feel like most want to ‘set it and forget it.’ If the average audiophile (is there an average audiophile?) wants to change out a component or two, a cable, a speaker, etc. to get themselves closer to the sound they seek.
That said, most everyone who has heard a planar magnetic or electrostatic speaker has been super impressed, it’s just the lack of expected bass response that turns them away. Witness Steve Gutenberg, the Audiophiliac.
I’ve never heard one, but I would very much like to.
Listened to Alsyvox Botticelli
external crossovers, no subs.
Amazing separation & clarity
Lot of coin 🪙 not for majority
I ordered a pair of their LRS+ panels... They will be here today!
Nice! Hope all goes well with them
The LRS is a badly flawed speaker. I urge you to go read the review on Audio Science Review.
@@robertjermantowicz-uw3iw LOL! Sure.
Does that custom set up come with a good divorce lawyer 😮
IMO the ribbon panels are fantastic. Fast, transparent, very little stored energy to smear sound BUT the crossover designs and cheap crossover components really hold them back. (if you look at response curves....really terrible) I've long wondered why they didn't go to an external crossover. That's what I'm building for my LRS. While Maggies may be a relative bargain, the requirement for big high current amps drives up the total package cost. Don't get me wrong.....some of my favorite speakers ever.
Good cables make a difference
No need for external crossover
A very interesting concept, especially for Mag fans. One area that they could improve upon without making big changes is the quality of their existing wiring and internal crossovers. With respect to their new strategy, my concern is the mess of wires that are required to make all the connections. Hopefully they will come up with a better integration of all the wiring and electronics because adding 2 more speaker boxes to 2 tall Maggies may look out of sorts in some household spaces.
Great video. Thanks for all the clarification.
I've always wanted my 1.7s to have multi-amp capability with or without the factory crossovers in the signal chain.
I have 20 year old MG 12's and two Rythmik subs. Sounds wonderful as is.
It's time for an upgrade 😊
@@CarlVanDoren61 He could upgrade to the 1.7's, a pair of 1.6's, send the MG's back to Magnepan for upgrades, or he can stay satisfied as he is.👍
I would like more videos like this.
The Hypex/Purifi 450-500w amps are a revelation with Maggies. My .7s put out plenty of bass in a medium sized room. I haven't tried them in a larger rooms/open living rooms spaces with high ceilings, etc., but I don't think subs are necessary in small/medium rooms with the right DAC and the above mentioned amps. I'd really like to try the newer Purifi with the higher current, but even the cheap Hypex 500w are really impressive with Maggies.
Hi Tom, I think this is a smart move. Maggie’s weak point has been poor Quality, crossovers, floppy frames and insufficient bass slam. I have in the past modified Maggie’s using three 8” subs, active x-overs and frame bracing. I used a pair of Vandersteen five loudspeakers as a reference. I got some really interesting results, and as all engineering has compromises, the jury is out on complexity, add a snake pit of wires and equipment. I love the simplicity of the Vandersteen’s as a one box solution, and I would urge but magnapan to look at this, as one of many options they could provide. I always wondered why they never offered upgraded loudspeakers with better crossover’s, and bracing for the loudspeakers as a result is a much improved speaker, but it is much higher cost. Thank you for another great review.
Vandersteen 5's are better sounding than any stock Magnepan.
Not a pipe dream but a continuation of the dipole woofer idea. As a current Maggie owner (20.7’s) it would be awesome if this open architecture was somehow backward compatible to current speakers. I would consider replacing my crossover experimenting with dipole woofers instead of starting over.
Auditioned GR three stack
Sonics bounced everywhere
Rel, w active crossover is best
An additional issue may be the most important. Maggies & dipoles in general need to be placed well into the room more than traditional spks.
I disagree. I have traditional large speakers AND 1.6QR rolling in my 2-ch setup and they require same distance into the room to be able to provide that special 3D-spaciness... Mine are about 4-4.5 feet out... However, putting a Magnepan too close will probably have a larger negative effect that a traditional box speaker... Just my experiences...
@@martinlindberg1983 Exactly. All speakers should be away from room surfaces to provide a good sense of space -- the idea is to delay the room reflections because the ear times them and uses it to determine how big the space is. But it's more critical in back of dipoles. On the other hand, the side walls are less critical because of the dipole null at the sides.
@@Josh442
Not ALL speakers. This is why Cardioid speakers were designed, and work quite well close to the wall behind them.
@@bbfoto7248 Even conventional monopole/cardioid boxes sound better when pulled out from the wall.
Never heard Magnepans, but I have a pair of 'inexpensive' open back B&O 80s Walkman type headphones, it's the closest thing I've heard to perfect sound, that is to say free from obvious colouration.
Oh no. This doesn’t work for me. I hate DSP and woofer towers… no…. No…. Just the good old Maggies. 🤩
I purchased some LR pluses Maggie‘s quite disappointed. I have a 500 W amp. I am preamp obviously’s issue. I did make some improvements. I put a real sub in there and I have a sub line active crossover made a 70% difference still far from satisfactory to my ears, but it made a great improvement for most people, I also added a silver fuse to the crossover and that smooth the high end out on the LSR plus I still find it uncomfortable listening to a lot of music on the Magies since I like hard rock and I’m going to be trading these and I think on the speakers from Tallahassee Florida, I’m not sure their name Anyhow they’re $4600 for the pair and they sound quite good and I think they’re gonna make up for the lack of transparency in the mid range of the Magies anyhow guys. This is just a hobby. Don’t take it too serious and don’t be afraid to spend money if this is your hobby and you’re looking to strive for happiness in your room, good luck guys
It will be interesting to see how manufacturers use these tools and concepts to make better sounding speakers.
This is amazing. Thanks for sharing.
I am using the Eversolo amplifier that drives them very well.
I have the 1.7i can i remove mine filter and use a dsp without sub.
Heard them once long ago. Stopped me in my tracks . Freaky clear was my first thought.
So just like using GR research open baffle servo subs and Behringer DCX 24/192 like we did 7 years ago.. lol.
2-Rel T9/x & K231 Sublime 😊
Sonic better, way less than $7k
Thought U gave up mayonnaise?
Very similar. I spoke to Danny several years ago and he told me he was working with Windal to develop a bass module using smaller drivers. I'm assuming this is the result.
I am not sure using smaller drivers in open baffle is going to be the best approach. I want to try My modified 1.7i with 2 open baffle cabinets each with 1x15 and 1×18.
I am sure you have played with minidsp units before. How does the Barringer unit you use compare? I was about to pull the trigger on dbx drive rack PA2. I have modified the xovers for the Maggie's but also tempted to start over and make them bi ampable 2 way then incorporate the bottom end using dsp and separate subs.
Any thoughts?
@@ufarkingicehole These aren't the woofers Danny was talking about. Those are the UBS and they're designed primarily as a woofer for the forthcoming CSS spouse friendly Maggie (only 12" wide!).
Behringer has a bad rep in general. Among other things, they steal other people's designs. I'd stick with MiniDSP.
Smaller woofers sound better than large ones. Obviously, though, you have to use a lot of them to move air! If you want dipole bass with extension and slam, larger woofers are he way to go.
@Josh442 thank you for the reply
@@Josh442
"Smaller woofers Sound Better than larger ones"??? That's a fairly broad blanket statement. How so, specifically?
Well glad the audio belle showed us the mess that comes with this and made it easy to realize this video was useless to me. Also holy shit there was so much run around filler fluff in this video. Could have made it way more simple. Maybe started off with giving us a scenario to visual a Maggie system with a few extra components and what they would be doing and how it changes the sound. Then tell us what the sound would be like without all these add ons. Then let us know that the later would be a normal magnepan and the former a new incision from magnepan
Thank you Tom. Very interesting your comments. Those Magnepan aren’t for me.
A very complex system and a significant investment. And an investment of time tweaking the system. In contrast to a 2 way system of equal invest would probably be easier to manage. 25:02
It's not that difficult when shown 😊
The LRS brought them back into the limelight…but yes, since then ..there’s always something not quite right…
I own the 1.7i and I was thinking about moving up to the 3.7i but when they decided to raise their price substantially to $10k and because of the limited sweet spot I decided not to purchase them.
But, if you already have Magnepan, then you will have to spend big bucks to replace the speakers, amps, dac, and preamp, as well as subwoofers (because who listens to Maggie’s without subwoofers) to obtain a system that may be only marginally better than what you already have. Starting from scratch may be cost effective, but present Maggie owners probably will not be eager to dump their systems.
Agreed.I use sealed subs with mine and they blend fine.
The crossover and connection plate are not the greatest and can be modded for better performance.
I would rather steer away from all that dsp myself.
It's easy enough to add DSP and electronic crossovers. The earlier models bring some of the drivers out to the back, and are set up to facilitate bi-amping; the current ones don't because the series crossover doesn't facilitate that, but someone who is a bit handy can modify them easily enough.
Will this allow for retrofitting for past & current Maggies?
Saludos, no comparto el enfoque nuevo de MAGNEPAN, eso encarece significativamente los costos finales sin necesidad; yo he comprobado personalmente que por ejemplo los 1.6, dan excelentes frecuencias graves, con la amplificación adecuada, hemos ensayado con diferentes topologías electrónicas y hemos encontrado que amplificación de 200w por canal en clase A, es lo más apropiado para a estos paneles y su sonido es simplemente fantástico. Lo hemos probado con diferentes géneros musicales y en el apartado del rock, bandas como AC/DC, Led Zeppelin, Aerosmith y otras, suenan genial, al igual que grandes sinfonías como la 5 o 9 de Beethoven, las Valquirias de Wagner o complejidades como Kraftwerk. No se porqué los creadores de contenidos se empeñan en mantener mitos, como que MAGNEPAN, carece de bajos, eso es una flagrante mentira. Ahora bien, en la práctica, hay un sinnúmero de Subwoofers, que bien afinados en su configuración, se integran muy bien con MAGNEPAN, facilitando las cosas, por precios básicos. Pero claro, la mal llamada "HIGH END", actual, quiere tirarse todo, y que el sonido fabuloso y adsequible de MAGNEPAN, sea sólo el privilegio de unos cuantos multimillonarios. Espero que Wendell y su esposa y demás integrantes de la familia MAGNEPAN, no se dejen entrampar, por la extravagancia superflua de la mentira actual del HIGH END, y nos priven a la inmensa minoría de seguidores de los paneles magnetostáticos, el privilegio de disfrutar de un sonido excelso como pocos en la historia de la verdadera Alta Fidelidad, abrazos, desde Bogotá, Colombia
amen!
GR Research has their "Triple Threat" kit open-baffle subwoofer, which will save some significant money if you have the time to do a little DIY.
Checked into extreme $7k
20.7s weren't much more 😊
@@CarlVanDoren61 The Triple Threat sub is around $2k for the kit.
Expensive over thinking at best. Just enjoy your Maggie's where you are.
Everyone knows they cheap out on the XOs. Someone could make a living selling Maggie upgrades as the Crites did to Klipsch.
GR Research does upgrades.
Very interesting
For me Tom missed one of the main weaknesses of Magnepan speakers. Most of their drivers are single ended planars. Single ended becomes more and more non linear the more the driver is pushed. This means that when driven hard Maggies will compress sound especially when compared to a good dynamic speaker. Maggies have other virtues, of course, but if you value linear dynamics as I do Maggies have limitations.
I wonder why they don't use a light aluminum frame instead of MDF?
They are moving in that direction -- the 30.7 and forthcoming CSS have it, and I think you'll see it moving down the line.
Very interesting and well presented, however a couple of thoughts come immediately to mind. Maggie is known to be working on their own subwoofer and have already demonstrated it, so does this mean they aren't bringing it to market for some reason despite the rave reviews it received? And if Maggie thinks an open baffle sub shows such promise, why didn't they design their own, either as an in-house project or in collaboration with one of the open baffle shops already in existence?
Groups already recommend Rel 👌
I have rebuilt tympani 4as The bass is better but not dynamic. That's ok by me. Marchand crossover. Bryston 7s on bass. Threshold 500 on mids and that ribbon
What bass modules are adjacent to the Maggies?? They look like a Open Baffle Bass module
Yes. Those are part of their prototype work. We’ve done several reports on some of the designs on this channel.
I have my 3.6 R done dsp active with modified Behringer DCX long times ago, and it didn't cost that much. With dsp active and sub, no more headache with amps power and bass deficiency. But Maggie still come short. I couldn't get really quiet back ground and got limited dynamics and speaker makes rattling noise when I play certain level because cheaply made frame structure. The speaker frame structure can't handle the power and dynamics and should make it stronger and better damping on frame structure.
I would like to hear Jonathan Vilan's take on these
Looks like Danny Ritchie has been hanging out in MN...
Most of this is unnecessary. Here is another approach: 1) switch to neodymium magnets in the Maggie panel from rubber magnets, bringing up the sensitivity to a reasonable level. 2) Reduce the height of the planar panel to leave space at the bottom for 2 dipole woofer that mount directly to the main panel under the planar element. This approach, if correctly engineered, would remain passive with good time alignment and sensitivity. Room correction is not needed in a dipole bass system. 3) Implement a much heavier and stiffer frame and decent crossover parts. The resulting design would be less than double the price of the current models, while improving the overall sound and fixing the bass problem, without adding all the complexity and wiring of this open-architecture approach discussed in the video. I am very surprised that open-architecture is their proposed solution after 60 years of production. They can easily solve all of the current issues in-house.
Clayton Shaw
Yes the diptyque speakers is a prime example of it being done right.
This is Danville's system, not Magnepan. Magnepan didn't design and won't be selling it. But to your point -- sure, they could double the price, but who would buy them? There are neo planars out there but they're very expensive. Also, that may not be the best approach from a price-performance level -- merely making the baffle larger will get you more bang for the buck -- MDF is a lot cheaper than neodynium!
They offer fancier crossover parts now in the "X" models/mods.
Rather than stiffening the frame, get the 20.7's or 30.7's. Those have the dual magnets which increase flux but just as importantly stiffen the structure. I think you'll see them going to aluminum frames in the future and making some other fundamental changes.
Maggie’s do something excellent such as natures timbres buuuuut, they don’t have the texture or saturation a cone speaker has. They don’t throw sound at you the way a cone speaker does. The combination of things really helps a speaker to be more 3 dimensional. They have great separation sure but the real 3 dimension is lacking because of its alternative approach to sound.
they are less dynamic sure but more holographic to me
They should be more rather than less 3 dimensional, with the sound going back from the speaker to behind your wall. How far from the wall did/do you have them? The further from the front wall of the room, the more depth you'll hear. 3' is the bare minimum.
@@Josh442they have 3 dimensional sound just not the way a normal speaker does it. I play with speaker positioning at least once a week lol. I have pulled them up within 6 feet of me just to take the room out of the equation and get great sound but then I’m not getting the scale I’m able to get out of my very large room.
@@t.j.bennett6454 Are you trying to get the sound in front of the speakers? I've never heard a dipole that could do that.
The speakers should be at least 3' from the front wall, preferably 6' or even more. But I think your best bet here may be to put diffusion behind the speakers at the first reflection point (the point at which you'll see them from your listening position if you put a mirror on the front wall). Dipoles are generally at their best that way.
What I like about properly set up line sources is that I don't get a sense of a miniature image. It's more like listening through a window to the real space. But 2 channel stereo is always a compromise, so I guess you have to choose the compromise you most like!
@@Josh442 what lead you to think I was trying to get it in front?
I have cats. They sound great but I can't have those
$5k in new carpet, no pets 😮
It toke them so long to take this step... This is the way many of us already have gone with our Maggies. DSP is really a great tool.
Promo for Alsyvox Caravaggio 😊
A truly open architecture and "being enrolled in the program" don't go together. If this is "open" I should be able to buy the Maggies and use whatever amplification/DSP/crossover solution I want to bring to the table provided it meets the spec. "Enrolled in the program" is not a spec, it's a marketing tactic.
too complex, prefer the classic maggie approach plus sub
Well Ive been a big fan of Maggies and have sold many models in my years in Audio. Earlier days they where highly considered and always a excellent buy. Yes they are large, dominate the room, and require good amplification to bring out their full potential. But at least the setup was pretty simple clean and not complex. This new system is anything but that. Sure I understand the idea of making Maggies are more serious contender in the high end market but this does not look like a system that many would consider with its space requirements, complexity, and costs. Sorry but don't feel this is a smart move. I hope I'm wrong and they sell tons of these. Also why are the woofers on the inside, makes no sense to me.
I can't believe they are still using those flimsy metal strips as stands for the speakers. This allows the speakers to sway front and back which cancels bass. If they want bass they should develop a stand that keeps them from moving. I like Magnepans but to me they make everything sound larger than life. I went with Acoustat electrostatics instead. I'm very happy with my deep tight bass and no subwoofers.
We can already do all this stuff. This is so silly.
I combine my Maggie with my big IMF mk 3 speakers, for me it's a perfect match, much better than subwoofers
Lets see the Klippel off axis response plots? Talk talk talk.
👻
They're dipoles. What would you expect? They look like figure 8 off axis, with lobing due to the lateral crossover. The lobing is a problem. The DSP XO can change it, but you can't change the position of the drivers. Point source speakers have it too, but since it's vertical, I think it's less of an issue, as long as you're sitting. Anyway, it's always going to be compromise. Dipoles have the advantage of a consistent radiation pattern across the frequency spectrum. No baffle step, though line sources have their own issues. (There are some cool ways to eliminate the lobing, but they're pretty costly.)
I once tried to order Magnepan and the email replies were very amateur and slow to come. It gave me the impression that they are not a real company - just a guy who makes speakers when he feels like it. No thanks.
Placed order w dealer
Less than two months!
Quite possibly the most boring discussion ever regarding Magnepan speakers. There was exactly nothing revealed here that resembled anything useful. I mean no disrespect, but this video of “information” was a complete waste of time.
Picture says a thousand words 😮
I own Maggie 1.7i hand have rythmik subs on their way. Don’t have any interest in upgrading over 1.7i as they are perfect for my budget and room size.
Click bate??? IMO, this episode does not bring anything new on the table. A lot of Magnepan owners already made this "Open Architecture thing" to bring their Maggies to next level. Everybody knows that the slam (for some) is the weakest point in this design. There are a lot of Bang-for-the-buck alternatives out where you add an active XO and a couple of OB subs that does not cost you an arm and a leg... Some get further by surgery by ripping out passive XO and goes fully active, re-build frame work, add supported stands, and so on... I think Magnepan should continue what they do best - give audiophiles cost effective speakers with true audiophile attributes. Cheers!
I could not agree more. Give a great platform, and have it ready to be taken next level by Hobbyists.
This also is good for expanding the Magnepan's market share as well.
I got into the inexpensive panels, and then moved on up.
I also find it hard to understand some folks that rail against it Flat panel speakers.
Its not like you have to just pick one and never buy another set that meets your needs for another space or application.
Some of these folks seem to think that you are married to them or something.
Or have some idea that one speaker type has to be superior. Weird.
I don't see people putting Maggie's in their car. (I have but they would not fit LOL)
Bait
All cats love Maggies
Jesus , get to the point . Listening to ambiguous blathering ,disguised as anticipatory buildup is like watching Fuckin paint dry with this monotonous,anticlimactic droning character.
Will people want four speakers in their listening room?
Wow
It seems like magnepan is admitting their product is best utilized as a driver- not a speaker- a driver, in a complex system using a limited set of external crossovers, multichannel distribution amps, woofers and dsp. If this is the “solution” it’s an admission to a far bigger problem than I ever knew existed (not having owned magnepans). Maybe the exotic-minded tweaker will enjoy this, but the two channel guy looking for a set of speakers to use with an amp, dac and front end he curated himself and already owns (that’s half the fun) is going to pass this by as it seems counter to the core idea of offering a good value proposition.
Magnepan didn't do this and it isn't a Magnepan product. But even if they had, *any* speaker can be improved with DSP and electronic crossovers. This is simply icing on the cake.
@@Josh442 Incorrect. It’s clearly stated that magnepan IS introducing a line of speakers without crossovers in parallel with their traditional line. Why are they doing this? It seems to me that they are making the admission I commented on above.
@@edd2771 Except that Magnepan isn't -- I'm in close contact with them and have been updated on all the interactions. (In fact, I was the one who first suggested that the talk to Danville about another product). Danville has proposed doing this, but Magnepan hasn't agreed.
If I haven't said this already, this is *not* a Magnepan product, but a Danville product. They modified their own pair of speakers and told Magnepan. Magnepan agreed to help them with the demo.
In any case, as I said, *any* speaker can be improved with DSP and active crossovers. You can simply do things with electronics that you can't do with a mechanical transducer or a passive crossover -- linear phase crossovers, room and driver equalization, etc.
And suddenly you are locked into all kinds of digital manipulation and technology in one box… and limited in your choices… DSP, DAC, class D amp allinone box - done. While that might potentially sound great, I do not know whether I would like to be put in that corner… I am actually fed up with allinone streamer-dac-amps that outdate quickly and do not have an upgrade path. Instead, I am trying to separate everything and can tweak and upgrade or update at any time without having to change „everything“.
Just an FYI, Danville Signal's dspNexus 2/8 is built with plug-in modules so we can always update the DSP, the DAC etc without having to change everything. It was designed that way on purpose.
@@loriannclark9199 that is commendable 👌🏼. My comment was just a general preference. Having gone down the combined road with Naim and having been disappointed with longer-term upgradeability. I am also sure that there is a lot of value in a lot of combined products - and modularity and upgradeability is a good concept - both for the customer and for customer retention. 👏🏼 I will follow developments with interest, having had Maggies and not being sure whether replacing them was the best choice - considering all trade-offs.
I have been a 30 year fan of Magnepan and have a 5.2.4 home theater setup built around 2 pairs of 2.5R and a CC3 Maggie center. I think Magnepan's continued focus on 2 channel systems is a mistake. They'd sell many more speakers if they had better center channel for home theater use. I haven't upgraded my CC3 because they haven't come out with a better solution in 20+ years.
I switched out my maggie center for KEF R2 and blends great with my front 1.7i, much better off axis than mag center as well as more voice clarity. Movies never sounded better in my rig, plus dual REL 1205HT subs.
I don't consider planar speakers like maggies for these reasons:
1) They only deliver a good soundstage when I sit in a specific, small area (other speakers allow for more "wiggle room")
2) Even when you use cone woofers for bass, the maggies I heard have not much dynamics in the mid and high range of frequencies.
You’re missing out then.
@@YouSoundButtHurt Yeah, naah 😅. Done that, thank you ma'am. Still courious on Hifi but no longer about planar speakers (esp. Maggies)
It's always going to be a tradeoff. But you should be getting good dynamics in the mids and highs -- the larger ones will play pretty loud. Was the amp undersized? They need a big one.
Why does everyone say no dynamics on maggies, I've had Vandersteen 3A Sig, KEF, KLH Model5, Pioneer and others and the 1.7i has plenty of dynamics and slam, especially with dual REL subs but even without the subs. Plus, the sweet spot on the i series is plenty wide, better than pre i series. Maggies don't sound as good if not sitting down in the sweet spot but still sound great when walking around the room, like for a party, doing dishes in another room etc.