What the FOC?? (ARCHERY, WATCH BEFORE YOU BUILD ARROWS)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 เม.ย. 2020
- What the FOC?? (ARCHERY, WATCH BEFORE YOU BUILD ARROWS) We check in with Josh Jones owner and archery coach of Spokane Valley Archery. He goes through the fundamentals of FOC and what you should be looking for in a hunting arrow setup. Comments/questions? Drop them below we'll answer!
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I've seen video after video of a deer jumping the string on lighter setups and i don't belive that at 20 or 30 yards we are achieving arrow speeds high enough to counter the reflexes of a whitetail. I understand the school of thought here and tons of deer get taken every year with light set ups, but personally i will take improved penetration and a more quiet bow. Happy hunting guys!
At the 8:30 mark he discusses that it’s not in an attempt to “beat” the deer as that is inevitable. But,,, that when the deer inevitably does jump, the extent of the animals movement prior to impact is reduced! I shoot a 425gr but it’s 8.8gpi. Allowing me to still have 150gr up front.
Other setup is 560gr 🤗, but with a 10.6gpi shaft Same diameter.
although quieter, there is an audible delay in time to impact at 50-60yds
@@1919Egan Exactly, and not just my opinion but from experience. I also didn't like the trajectory loss that fell off big time. If a animal sneaks in on me and my sight is set for 20yds and I know the animal is 25yds and I have no time to fiddle around I would rather be able to shoot and hold 2'' higher because the bow shoots flat rather than have to hold 9" higher because the trajectory suffered so much, and the further out you go the worse it gets etc etc.
They kill me with the speed thing. I shoot a recurve a touch over 160 fps. If it’s past 25 yards for whitetail or hogs I just aim a bit lower. Don’t shoot past 30 but with modern compounds I don’t know why anyone is worried about speed. 450fps isn’t going to be fast enough to beat a deer so adjust to it
The difference on my bowtech, from 370 grain arrow vs a 570 grain arrow, is 5 decibels. I shot a doe at 25 yards with the 370 grain arrow, she took off running and the other deer just stood there. I've noticed that 98% of the time a deer jumps the string, they are looking at the hunter.
I just listened to a a deer biologists at Georgia, he did a lot of studies on deer vision and he thinks when deer jump the string it has to do with movement rather than the sound the bow makes…whether he’s right or wrong, it’s something to think about for sure
I can’t tell you how much I’ve learned from your channel in the last 6 months, thanks a million for giving us this content
thanks homie 🙏
Good to see the helical fletch. Most archers don't believe in it. I have used helical for 35 years and never had flight issues with fixed blade broadheads.
This is the best FOC video I've seen yet, thanks! I've been waffling on the details of my next arrow build and this was pretty illuminating. I could watch about 10 more hours Josh talk nothing but FOC! Would love to hear more about specific arrow builds, what has worked, what hasn't, etc. Keep up the great content!
thanks bro 🙏
I agree, I just ordered the test kit from sirius and am now wishing that I would have ordered my arrows an inch shorter.
It's always interesting to see the different solutions and answers people come to through life experience. Everyone has their own setups and reasons for it. I'd say Josh has some proof for his pudding with his hunting successes, and has found a way that works. I always enjoy looking at things from different angles. It helps broaden the spectrum. Thanks. Good luck this September fellas!
Thanks you too!
Your videos have been such a help. Thank you for continuing to release these!
we are trying our best 🙏
From listening to your informative video I can see that you and the Ranch Fairy and Edward Ashby are not Close Friends
Josh is plenty aware of all the Ashby studies... he quotes it in several of our videos... Dan has killed over 30 public land elk with his bow, that's real life experience - Tim
@@ElkShape I enjoy listening to anyone that has knowledge and especially those who have knowledge combined with experience. Anyone who has hunting experience has come to understand that you can be lethal with any setup but it does matter where you hit them with that setup. Pass through hits happen to Beginners with Beginner's setups. But those that Love the Hunt, Love to Tinker. We Tinker because we are striving for Performance and Perfection.
The Fact being that Heavy arrow mass Helps Maintain High Momentum throughout flight. Speed suffers but Mass remains Constant throughout flight. No Bowhunter can predict what shot angle will be given to him nor where it will land, so be prepared. I have come to the conclusion that throwing a rock causes more damage than a straw.
Fact... A single blade single bevel broadhead setup is more lethal than any Multi blade setup.
What comes to mind immediately is how much time and money has been spent and the Facts still don't Change. But look at how much fun and understanding that has been created
Thanks for your efforts and your videos
Elk Shape wow 30
Most of the hogs ranch fairy is shooting at aren’t much over 17 to 20 yards.
The ranch fairy guy seems like a complete tool. I tried watching one of his videos and I couldn’t bring myself to take him serious. Dude is a clown.
Imo a heavier set up makes a quieter bow.. maybe this helps with jumping the string.
ABSOLUTELY has helped me this year. 725 grain arrow. Silent off the bow. I agree 110%
Wow, lots of knowledge being shared. I found this video because I was considering trying 150gr broadheads, however I’m already neck deep in my current arrow spine and I’m definitely not willing to start over, just can’t afford it. Currently shooting 60# @ 30” DL with 29”L 340/350 spine and 100gr broadheads, for a total weight of 383-396 and I get good penetration on whitetails and hogs @ 283 FPS. THANKS FOR SAVING ME SOME MONEY!
Absolutely correct IMO, there is a balance between weight, acceptable trajectory and speed. My arrows are now in the 420 to 440 range, 14% ish FOC and shoot very well. Thanks for shedding some light on the mega FOC/ Weight frenzy that seems to have overtaken the archery world. To me trajectory/ arrow arch is also very important, a lot of my shots are in relatively tight windows and if my arrow is climbing to the outer atmosphere to get to 50 yards it's a waste of my time and more time for something to go wrong down range. Good stuff, thanks.
Really loving these detailed videos, please keep them coming!
thank you 🙏
Hell yeah, Josh! I shoot the RIP TKO's with 15% FOC and hitting about 278 fps and they are legit. Also, Dan, you remind me of an outdoorsman version of Jason Khalipa. Keep up the awesome content and love the channel!
I never put that together but they could be cousins from another mother.. lol - TC
Dr Ashby is the best info on this. 15% is still low IMHO
that's cool, do your thing
Ranch Fairy has great foc info too. He’s on board with Dr. Ashby, and has lots of real world experience with this.
Seems like a lot of people forget that the first 2 things Ashby recommends do not include FOC. They are perfect arrow flight and structural integrity. FOC is important, but not at the cost of the first 2. If you have a slightly lighter arrow that shoots perfect it will penetrate better than a heavy arrow with high FOC that corkscrews in the air.
Jon Brown Exactly! I love what Ranch Fairy is doing, but there are a lot of factors that go into the shot and penetration. If I was hunting on a feeder or from a stand and my longest shots were 30 yards, then shooting a 650 grain arrow is fine because I’m so close. Where I hunt elk and deer in Oregon I hunt from the ground and my shots could easily be 60 yards.
What this video was saying makes sense, but that being said I think 425-450 is a hair light for elk. I try to get my setup right around 500 grains. Seems to be a good compromise.
@@stick__shooter agreed. A lot of people must be skipping the videos where even he( the ranch fairy) harps on perfect arrow flight and tuning. I'm pretty sure he says specifically that it's your primary concern. My theory is that you can buy things to make a high FOC arrow set up( and companies do plenty of marketing for it)....but accuracy and tuning just flat out take time and work. People don't seem to be so " into" that these days.
Great video. Been using the Black Eagle FOCUS stainless 100 grn outserts and had no issues. Used their stainless 68 grain for 5 years never lost one.
word up 🤘
Totally agree ! I only shoot 58 pounds and I think I found a good balance between FPS and FOC with a 450 grain arrow and 13.5 percent FOC. Kinentic Energy 69.38 and more importantly Momentum .524, which is more than enough to take big game. With the right fixed broadhead and a lot of practice, I should be golden for this season. Not sure what all the Hype is concerning super heavy arrows with extreme FOC ! We are are not trying to drive arrows through a steel plate ! Which for us guys who don't shoot 70 pounds with a 30 inch draw, we cant swing for the fence. Its all about being smart and finding your right setup. No way I'm shooting a super heavy arrow with extreme FOC which makes my bow super slow with a ton of arrow drop, even at 30 yards. Also, I hope these guys with super extreme FOC, take the time to make sure they have the proper arrow spine ! Great video ! Great Content !
A much needed revisit as I plan my next build.. Victory RIP XV for the win! Just need to figure out where I want to fall with weight. I’m thinking 420-430. I was down to 455 last season but want a little flatter shot. With these shafts it’s easy to still get over 15%FOC at that weight.
Wow, some Awesome info! Thanks for sharing such knowledge!
of course! thanks for your support
Love the knowledge coming from SVA! This is something a lot of people need to hear!
Josh is an archery gangster
Mass plus FOC equals two holes...works like a charm...75 lb longbow, 900 grain total mass, 315 in the point...
Glad you have found what works for you 🤘
Longbows and recurve need alot of foc to fly well. Plus they generally shoot less poundage. Speed has never been a longbows strong point.
I’m a 27.5 draw shooting the vxr and shoot a Rip tko with 60g steel insert and 125g broadhead and have a total arrow weight of 437g. My FOC measured at 18.86 %. It’s been shooting good but I was wondering if it would be a better balanced arrow if I add 8-15 more grains in the nock? Could that be beneficial for shooting at greater distances even though it’s a touch heavier overall ?
What inserts do y'all use,I want to try to obtain more foc.but don't want to(for example)put a 75 grain brass insert in and than have tuning issues and ruin my arrows to take it back out.Hope you get what I'm trying to say 🙂
Makes total sense! Great info for all skill levels! I would like to see a video on how to broadhead tune. It seems to be slightly more complicated to do it correctly. Basically, once we have achieved a good FOC how do we properly tune the broadhead? Thanks!
yeah there is a lot of information there.. another whole video or two maybe.. 👊
Awesome video! What about shortening your arrow and adding heavier outserts to achieve the 15%foc and same arrow length? Would that work? And how do I figure out my stiffer spine to do that?
Any addition to weight up front is improving your FOC .. on the spine thing, would be best to defer that to an archery shop.. - TC
Question for ya. Im planning on buying the RIP TKOs for this season. I also plan on doing the 60 gr SS inserts. Whats your opinion on shortening my arrow length to make up for the length that the insert adds? Also, I know the correct spine is crucial, but im right on the boarder between a 300 and 350, what would be the better decision? (Info: VXR 31.5, 70lb mods, DL 27.5, arrows are normally cut 28 inches, peak wait showed 68-69 lbs, point weight 100 grains)
Dude that is hard to say as an amateur archery person.. Do you have a good pro shop nearby to help? My understanding is when in doubt it's generally better to go for the heavier spine.. Either way you look to be in the ball park 🤘 - TC
Thanks for the video, always informative and interesting. Do you have a favorite arrow or two, that's strong? (I don't shoot cinder blocks, but I do hit bricks and boards, and a metal door once ;-))
What is the estimated speed loss going from a 340 spine arrow to a 300 on a Mathews Vertix with a 60 lb. 30” draw?
My best shooting arrows in recent years were 570gr with ~22% foc at 280fps (29.5”/70#) Perfect bareshaft flight to 70 yards, perfect broadhead flight to 100+. High quality, heavy components. So I really disagree that you lose too much velocity with heavier arrows and high foc. That’s person dependent. If you have a short draw and low poundage, sure, but that makes arrow mass and limited range even more important. The 12-15% mark has been debunked as “the best” for a long time. Easiest to attain, sure but there are a lot of benefits with higher percentages when done right and with the arrows on the market these days, it’s very easy to creep into that 17-20% range and still be around 500-550gr
you're still sacrificing speed to get to that weight.. that is one of the main points he's trying to make.. also not saying you're wrong that you shot best with that setup.. he's talking to the masses about the best starting point, in his opinion.. shoot whatever shoot's best out of your rig homie
280fps!!! with 570 awesome I'm only getting 275 with a 480gr. at 17% @#70 So the readout says. Even though Velocity is everything in flight But it Really isn't. How far will you take a shot at a bull elk? Understanding trajectory and being even 5yards off and the drop, but with laser range finders, one can dial that 63 yard shot in on your $300 bow sights lol. Penetration is Essential
I’m not saying your wrong but I really would have to see the graft if your achieving those speeds at that weight... wow
@@kelseymoss1984 my thoughts exactly. Must have a 3"brace height. Lol
@@ElkShape your talking less than 1/2 a tenth of a second.....lol
Easton axis 340 spine 125g arrow 29” draw am I better off going to a 100g or sticking with 125g
that's a bit of a matter of opinion.. but if you're trying to achieve higher FOC either shortening your arrow, taking weight off the back end, or adding weight on the front will help you out.. but you have to make sure your spine is stiff enough to support your setup
Appreciate the content, what would you say your base line speed would be? Or do you have a target weight and the end speed is what it is?
285 fps is generally the sweet spot for us when it comes to our specific arrow and fixed broadhead! -DS
Hey guys, My arrows are victory vap tko elite 400 cut at 25 1/2 with an in and out insert with one inch in and one inch out of 90gn shooting a 125 gn broad head and 14 gn nock for a full of 452 gn total per arrow with 21% foc and my draw is 27 1/2 my triax is getting almost 280fps what y’all think?
great interview
Have you guys done a video on right vs left helical fletching? And how to determine which is best for your bow. I’m shooting a vxr 28!
Clock a bare shaft arrow 4-8 feet from target.. See which way it is rotating
Would your arrow clock right if you served the string from top to bottom instead of bottom to top?
great thanks mate...
Thank you for the video. So, what is the proper trade off in terms of speed (so the animal doesn't move), weight (so penetration is optimized), and FOC (so the arrow flies at its best)?
The higher the FOC the more it penetrates and flies better.
great video- a lot of good info to take in. I think you should also mention something about some YT channels who are big archery/elk guys like yourself talking about heavier arrows and FOC. It seems several like yourself are shooting 80 lbs + and going for the longer shots(think Bowmar,lol). That is awesome you guys can do that but the majority of us dont or cant. Just as an example/ reference, in 2009 I shot a bull elk at 18 yds with my 2007 Hoyt Vulcan, 27" DL and 370 grain Slick Trick standard(bow chrono's at 272fps). The arrow passed thru both sides of the rib cages and went another 8-10 yds. I did have a FOB that popped off at impact. My point is that you dont have to have a 400+ grain arrow to kill an elk. Get in close and it doesnt matter as much. But playing with all these variables is what makes Archery so much fun! Keep up the great videos.
Thanks Andy - FYI my bow is 75# this year :) and Bowmar shoots way further than I do on animals and that's his deal not mine. No disrespect to him either... I prefer to get as close as possible on all animals, hence I'm in love with bowhunting!
Thank you
Love all the info Josh says on your channel keep it up and I still want a video on Josh's bow setup
good idea!
Great videos! I'm about to try building my own arrows. I have a 27.5 inch draw and am wanting to get the 340 spine Easton Axis 5mm arrows with 50/75 grain brass inserts. I am also thinking of using the AAE max 23 vanes to keep the weight down like you did. I have a little bit slower bow, not having a flagship bow. Is this configuration going to be ok or do I need to consider anything before I go all in?
I have identical specs with a pse epix and I’m getting good broadhead flight with the 340 axis. I’m shooting 150 gr fixed blades with 16 gr inserts and aae hybred 26 vanes. I don’t think 150-175 grains up front is too much unless you’re at 70 lbs or more.
Dude, your penetration is gonna suck. Chances are that arrow shakes like hell on impact dumping all your energy. These big time hunters on TV that get 4" of penetration are just wounding animals to death and leading people down a shitty road
i'm new at hunting, just got my record expunged in 2018 and have decided that xbow hunting is something a 60yr can get into and still have fun....i am watching, learning, and understanding what's involved (i have a degree in astro so i fucking love this shit) - so i am not a complete newb (well, i am - but trying hard not to)
in the debate of lighter vs heavier arrows, i saw a vid about a rash of limb splintering in high speed xbows (i have an amped 425). he postulated that the recommend weight is the absolute minimum...
and at that minimum weight, there are still extraneous forces that will simply turn back into the limbs...if you use a heavier arrow (he goes up to over 500 grains), those extraneous forces will be taken up by the arrows, thus extending the life of the xbow...
Great vid . What insert or outsert does Josh run with his victory RIP TKO arrows ???? Or what would he recommend for that specific arrow ?? cheers
im running ethics on my vap tkos
I'm thinking of getting some RIP TKO's and trying to decide on Victory's outsert or go HIT with a collar . I saw that Josh is using RIP TKO's so thought I'd ask what he was running . thanks though , eithics look good too .
cheers
What I have encountered over the years, as carbon arrows have progresses they have changed weight. Even the same size arrow within a brand changes depending on if it is one style or another. Part of that is the arrow manufacturers but also run into the case of everytime you go to the bow shop and needs arrows, they have changed what they carry. So you start out with 8.4 gpi arrows, but next time you need arrows they don't have those but they have 8.9 gpi, and then the next time you get 9.4, and then eventually end of with 10 gpi arrows, and what you don't realize is your FOC has went from 11 to about 8 or less, and may not be really noticeable, but throw a new faster bow into the mix, and now you can't stabilize your broadheads if you use fixed blades, and they push you into expandables which sometimes creates even more penetration issues. Like less than 3 inches of penetration from a rage hypodermic from a bow shooting 280 fps. Long story on that one, but involved a pro shop that help set up a bow that shots bullet holes through paper, but performed like crap.
So I've been in the arrow building / foc rabbit hole all year. I've read various things that say fixed blade broadheads are hard to tune over 280 fps. Is this true? Is there an arrow speed you target? If you could still shoot your desired speed and maintain a proper spine would you increase your foc? What's your opinion on feather fletching? I saw a feather "blazer" vane that weighed 1.2gs Can't that save you significant weight in the back of the arrow?
less weight on the back of the arrow will improve your FOC... those are great questions - probably best deferred to your archery shop or Josh Jones
Test a balanced 600 grain arrow vs a 600 grain foc arrow..
great idea
What causes your arrow to spin right or left and how do you check that? Thanks and good luck bear hunting this spring.
watch the arrow build video.. bareshaft shoot a target 6 feet away, mark the arrow with a sharpie
I have learned so much from your videos. Thank you so much for the great content and i can't wait till the next video.
thanks for your support homie 🙏
wow haters gonna hate. I have watched a lot of YT channels on this topic. built my own FMJs last year with excellent results with the bow I was using. I need to adjust my arrows now as I have a new bow. everyone has different experience and views on everything. just watch and learn and tinker like Dan always says.
great video and lots of info, but did I miss the reason/benefits of having a high FOC? kinda new to this.
Awesome videos guys. Sucks that I have a 26.5 inch draw and my speeds aren’t that great. Always tinkering though trying to find balance.
RUEBEN - thanks bro
Can i get a estemet of what an arrow foc build will be before ordering the parts/ is there some mathe i can do?
Started practicing and preping for cold weather hunts and ran into an inconsistent yet detrimental problem. The bow string glances off my winter jacket when shooting deflecting my shot. What top layers are capable of dealing with down to 10°F but aren't thick enough to get in the way of the bow string causing deflection?
Wool
As an elk hunter in the PNW I really gave this considerable thought. The PNW is full of heavy timber, tight windows and steep incline and decline. I have watched many elk hunting videos in the last 20 years and many misses are trajectory related. Meaning in the moment we get tunnel vision focusing on our window when the actual trajectory is going to be above our tunneled sight line. This leads to arrows getting deflected. Add in elevation up or down and trajectory increases due to shooting heavier arrows and I think I will take slightly flatter and faster. I have gone to Montec broadheads to the the angle of the blade maximizing my arrows ability to do work (penetration). Now out east hunting Rocky Mountain elk and more open country a strong case can be made for more FOC and heavier arrows due to more open country. Even when deer hunting from my tree stands a could see making a strong case for FOC and heavier arrows especially if it quiets my bow down.
Is 17% foc good for a total weight of 480gn arrow
My question is nock low tears with VXR. Underspined or something else?
Love SVA videos on bow builds and how to’s.
Appreciate the work!
Had same problem. How did you fix it?
Is going to feathers a bad idea? I used to shoot really well back in the day with feathers and am considering order some for a few reasons, but one of the reasons is increased FOC.
that's a good question for JJ
Hi, I have been shooting FMJ 340 spine 11.3 gpi arrow total weight 530 gr and I get 10.5 foc also I noticed that after 30 yards a start to drop drastically, Now I am going to change to axis 340 9.5 gpi spine length of the arrows is 28.50” with 75 gr brass insert and 100 gr broadheads total arrow weight 490 gr and I would get 14% of foc. The same arrow with 50 gr brass insert total arrow weight 464 gr I would get 11.4 % of foc. What you suggest to go with? 75 gr brass insert 490 gr arrow with 14% of foc or with 50 gr brass insert and 464 gr arrow with 11.4 of foc? Please give me a suggestion. Thank you
The advantages to more FOC/weight greatly outweigh the loss you will have in trajectory IMO, especially if you hunt elk, which I don't..You will always get more momentum from a heavier set up from the same bow. The only thing velocity gets you is flatter trajectory, which can be important to some.
If it were true that animals will duck slow arrows primitive archers wouldn't kill anything lol. Plus heavier = quieter.....
Josh was speaking to where he believes the sweet spot for FOC meets trajectory ... Dan has killed over 30 public land elk ... there's some knowledge in the room - TC
@@ElkShape I'm not saying he doesn't know what he's talking about, LOL, I'm saying you can't deny physics.....If I hunted something potentially as big as elk on the regular I wouldn't use an arrow less than 550 grains especially if I had a shorter draw length or used less poundage. I'm not saying you have to go crazy with FOC and weight, but almost every aspect of an arrows killing potential is enhanced by both of those things.
@@toddlymburner5783 Funny you say the hunters lack the ability to put the arrow where it needs to be, yet the very thing josh talks about in the video is an animals ability to move therefore changing point of impact. P.S. I agree that hunters need to put the time in to be able to best place an arrow on any game animal.
Dan if you dont mind me asking. What is your draw length and poundage what's your fps with the 454 grains? Just curious because I don't know if I want to go heavier or not.
27" DL, 75#, 280fps, THANKS!
@@ElkShapeThanks man!
Awesome video
thanks G 🤘
Great informative video. It's difficult to get information for archers with short dl so I'm hoping I can get some additional insight.
I shoot a 25in axis 340 that comes out to 408 grains at 274fps. This set up equates to 12% foc. I do also use a wrap and 4 fletch configuration. I believe I'm playing on a fine line of weight to speed so my question is; Independently, what weight minimum and speed minimum do you believe one must have for an ethical shot?
I'm short DL as well - I generally have 280 fps setups give or take 5 fps... I have had my best luck with 450-500 grains total arrow weight historically speaking and I use the same arrow on elk, deer, antelope, bear, etc...
@@ElkShape Awesome, thank you! In your experience are arrow speeds of about 260-270fps just too slow?
What speed do we want to try to obtain with a high foc arrow. Shooting a goldtip kinetic kaos with 14% foc at 275 fps. Its sitting at 520 grains.
that's a great question for the man, the myth, JJ - stay posted
@Gabriel Acevedo I AGREE -Dan
275 fps with a 520 grn. arrow is SLAMMIN !!
wow must be shooting 90lbs
31 inch 2219 two blade broadhead no idea weight lol just works very good for me and my old ways , I've never been more than 30yards max that I can recall
How did we kill all those animals back in the day of aluminium arrows and round wheel bows? How do traditional guys kill animals with they're slow, heavy F.O.C. setups? @ #themoreyouknow
Im pulling 73lbs and the shortest I can cut my arrows is 26"-26.5" and I wanna run the 75gn brass inserts what spine would you recommend using with the axis
340
So,, currently running Easton Carbon injextion 400's cut to 26.5 coming off a TRIAX 60 lb limbs with 100 gr points blazer vanes and wrap. If this ok,, or could i go to lighter shaft to get more speed with my short draw length & 60 lb limbs. I'm looking for every FPS i can get, with out getting dangerous to the set up. any recommendations ?
lighter arrows would help with more speed, taking the wrap off the back would help your FOC
What would you suggest for arrow spine ?
So if I used any of the foc calculators online I could build a ripxv or orion be at 380-400 grain with 18-19% foc 26ctc arrow 175 upfront
What type of target/s is in the backdrop? Great topic and good information.
Good question - give them a call at the shop spokane valley archery
I have 250 spine that are 28 inches long and they are 9.8 gpi and have a foc of 20% my arrows are 552 grains they fly 287 fps
I’m a New York whitetail hunter. Never see a shot past 40 yards. I run 725 grains with 15% FOC. Off of a ventum 33 at 29.5DL and 70#DW. I do believe deer text less harshly to my bow because it’s very very quiet due to the heavy arrow. String doesn’t have all that excess energy going into the string stop. My arrows are absolute beasts when it comes to penetration. Multiple deer this year out to 35 yards, all pass through with no question. Blasted through a shoulder as well on a quartering away exit. I’m going to lighten up this year to 600 grains and 19% FOC. I like to tinker. Maybe my opinion will change at some point. But for now and for hunting white tails and turkeys, I’m gonna stay heavy. I know where my arrow will be after shooting a white tail, and I most certainly will never see a turkey fly away with one of my arrows.
What target blocks does he use that are shown in the back ground?
Fractions of a second difference on impact between a 500gr arrow and a 700gr at 60yrds. I'll stick with my heavy setup. Great informative vids though!
Lmao, 700 grains? Throw some vanes on a piece of rebar.
@@matthewkyle2534 I'm at 620gr. Hunting midwest whitetail 30yrds max in hunting situations. My arrow will pass through no matter what it hits. Arrow trajectory and speed are not an issue for me. Making sure I get enough arrow in an animal to kill it is. Confidence in ones setup is a part of the mental game that is archery. ✌🏻
@@michaelturner9450 more power to you. An arrow like that has its advantages but it has serious downside. An arrow that heavy severely limits you. As long as you shoot short I suppose your fine.
"As long as you shoot short" 😂😂😂
There are no SERIOUS downsides. Heavy arrows carry more speed down range, more ke,more momentum,and pin gaps are more equally spaced. Facts are facts. Speed setups are for targets. Anything under 550 is a gamble.
So what arrow will you recommend for me . I have 26 draw lenght , and 66 pound draw weight .
test a few!
Damn Dan after reading some of these comments you’re a better man then me I would have blown up on people lol. 30+ elk should let people know that you know a little something about the subject. Keep the good videos coming crazy heavy high foc don’t mean crap if you can’t shoot your bow well.
Yeah, but how far do his animals go? What happens when he hits heavy bone? Its true that you can kill anything with a field point if the shot is perfect, but that don't always happen. Its preparing for plan B is the reason for high foc and heavy arrows with a good cut on contact head. Ive killed way more animals than either one of these men and I can tell you for a fact what works best when shit don't go perfect. But maybe your a hooter shooter, I know damn well I'm not
Its just opinion on both sides of the argument. Everything is a compromise.
Being a fanboy of someone doesn't make them right. There are good arguments for either set up.
Heavy foc helps you bow shoot well , makes it easier to tune.
I understand what your saying about an animal stepping forward and having a slow arrow. Both sides of the spectrum are exaggerated some want extremely heavy arrows and some want the extremely fast arrows. A lot of guys wouldn’t shoot my setup because it’s “too slow” at 239 FPS my arrow gets 60 yards in 3/4 of a second a guy shooting 300 FPS only gets there in 1/2 a second only 1/4 of a second faster than mine. If the animal your shooting at moves enough in that time you probably shouldn’t be taking that shot.
Your bow is probably more quiet and the animal my not move vs a fast bow that is loud.
How do you calculate foc with dual or triple spine arrows?
I have 16.6% foc with Easton axes 4mm long range 435 grains over all weight
How are you measuring your foc ? Do you have a video on it ?
There's a couple simple website calculators we've used. www.bowhunting.com/arrow-foc-calculator/
I think Valkyrie makes the heavy FOC mid weight arrow possible. I had a 550 grain shaft at 20 percent FOC. Victory VAP 250, 28.5 CTC. 250 up front. 282 fps out of 31in 70# VXR
cool cool - I think Josh was speaking to where he believes the sweet spot for FOC meets arrow trajectory.. as in there's diminishing returns beyond 15% because of the speed loss.. that's what I gathered - TC
282 isn’t a diminished return. That’s movin plenty fast
How is he shooting 340 and a 400 spine arrow with such heavy draw weight. Would you no be better off using a light gpi that is stiffer? I have a nocam with a 340 spine axis 50g of brass and 125 grain fixed blade and my broadheads always hit right and I can't tune it out. I've been thinking of going with a stiffer spine
Because his arrows are like 26” long.
Glad you said that long draw lengths. I am at 15 percent but I have a 31 1/2 draw my arrows are 31 9/16 with 200 up front. 3 fletch I am shooting 254 257 FPS I would like to be at 280 and keep 15 percent you think it’s possible with 72 pound bow
Black eagle spartan 200 spine with stainless steel insert and 200 grain iron will they fly awesome but was hoping to speed up. But I try 300 250 and 200 and 200 was the only one to paper tune correctly
X-impact, 100 grain broadhead, 100 Grain black eagle outsert.
27" arrow, with a wrap + 3 vanes.
434 grains = 17% f.oc
What about lighted nocks you still use them?
both Dan and I do use lighted nocks in the states we legally can... the shot trail outweighs the loss of FOC for our purposes.. - TC
My arrow weight I think is right around 530 grains and that’s with a 27” rip too elite and 245 grains up front that’s a black eagle focos system and 125 grain black hornet set razor. Glory nock in the rear with razor feathers 4 fletched and my bow is a Mathews triax 65 lbs and 29” draw. Arrows go about the same speed as my old bow with 400 grain arrows (using my eyes to judge that).
Ok nice very nice so please help me l shoot Easton hexx 400 spine 25.25 inches my draw length is 27 inches. My tips are 125 grains and 75 grains inserts , 4 fletch vanetec super spine fita 2.60 grains each. That bring my arrow to a total weight of 411 grains.Way it seems to drop less than if put a 100 grains tip at 30 40 yards?
Dan, you probably have already answered this, but what length is your arrow and your bow poundage? Thanks and happy hunting!
75 lbs 26.5" ish arrow - TC
@@ElkShape Thanks for your help! I'm close to your setup specs (27/72) and wonder if you think there are diminishing returns thinking an arrow can be too short for good flight as an elk hunter? I can reduce my length to 25" with weights varying from 430-467 and cannot afford to buy enough test arrows to really pick the absolute sweet spot for spine/weight/length/fletching out of my setup.
Appreciate your help and enjoy your day!
Great Job fellas! It's funny how things eb-and-flow, I've been shooting 12-15% on my compound setups for 30 years and never have had tuning or penetration issues; unless I messed up!
Also, did I hear Dan mention "clocking"? You may have explained this already and I'm thinking you are referring to bare-shaft rotation from relatively close distance but I'm hoping you would point to a video or share what you mean and how to do this? Thanks!
That is what he's referring too - we touched on it briefly in our arrow build video.. Check that out
Read on Ashby's arrow penetrating factors.
@@kennethhowell1467 Thanks
So when he mentions 15% is that the overall weight of the arrow and then multiply it by 15% and getting the amount up front?
Example: 500grain arrow overall
500*.15 = 75 for FOC?
Sorry just trying to understand arrows for a noobie
There is balance in all things. Heavy vs. Speed? Neither are the answer in totality - they are a relationship. I would agree with you guys, tinker your setup, know what works for your setup. I use to shoot 453 grain arrows and had success and many failures i.e. penetration, arrow flight, etc. I'm an elk hunter - big rocky mountain fun! And I tinker, so I spend countless hours tweaking, fine tuning arrows/bow, etc. I'm not a weekend warrior that shoots from time to time. I shoot 4 to 5 times a week. With that said, I've limited many variables like wraps, etc. Today I shoot 623 grains and have experienced many areas of success i.e. penetration, better stability in flight (better arrow flight), using fixed blade rather than mechanicals, etc. Did I lose speed? Yes, without question. But the other areas of success balanced that lose in speed. My success is not someone else's success. Do your thing ... practice, tinker, tweak, do what works for you! Great video, great info, great insight...
20% foc, 560gr arrow!
Is the FOC % for hunting, also the FOC % for target archery?
Good question for Josh we were referring to hunting - TC
The thing you seem to forget the lighter arrow although traveling fast the noisier the bow and arrow in flight
90 % of deer drop a few inches with string jump.
Great info. If you're worried about too much weight in the back of your arrow than why are you using the heaviest vanes known to man? You could run 4 Tac vanes and still come in 8 grains lighter...
I am not worried AND I really like AAE. I have heard great things about TAC as well. It's all preference and I generally go back to what has worked for me over the last 20 seasons all the while keep tinkering to find the Holy Grail. Thanks for watching Peter! -Dan
How do you find 15% foc of your arrow? How do you know when your at 15%
there's a few online calculators that can help you out!
High foc goes all the way through the "target". Slow is okay if you know to aim a little low for the duck down before takeoff
Still on the "short fast and stiff arrow" camp. 10% FOC at 312fps...KE at 80lbs.
I've shot both ways and prefer the middle ground around 475 grains and 15 percent FOC as well. I've guided alot of hunts and the vast majority of bad shots was because they were trying to range moving animals all while trying to get a shot off and ended up getting yardage wrong. Super heavy arrows only compound those yardage mistakes!
Use victory RIP XV or 3dhv. It is 7 gr/inch for 300 spine, no lighted nocks or bushing, regular nock 7 gr, use 3" feathers it is only 2 gr per fletch 18+% FOC easy for 28 inch arrow. You can check at gold tip foc calculator
word up! what's your total arrow weight?
I started shooting Victory RIP TKOs this past deer season. I'm shooting a MATHEWS TX-5 @ 27"/70LBS. Speed is right at 300 fps, arrows are 400 grains +/-. Is this setup ok for whitetails? Should I go heavier? I had pass throughs on the 4 deer I harvested with my bow last year. You guys give great info to us new to archery hunting. Thanks!
thats the arrow I want to get. how do you like them?
@@wittyhobbyist6680 from the results of this past deer season man I love em. Previous seasons I harvested deer with my old bow (pse stinger) and gold tip arrows and never once got a pass through. So when I got my new Mathews tx-5 last year. I told my archery shop that my goal was to be as close to 300fps with an arrow heavy enough for pass throughs but fast due to my short draw length. So he recommended Victory RIP TKOs since it's a smaller diameter arrows and boy am I pleased!
Thanos would be happy with that first arrow
Where can I buy that elk shape shirt?!?