Using excavator hydraulics as a propshaft
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 เม.ย. 2022
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In this episode we make another ridiculously complicated surrogate propshaft.
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Struggling to get the RPMs down? What happened to the thought of putting it on the tail shaft of the transmission? First gear would be a significant gear reduction!
@Bro Tang beat ya to it.
I think the idea was that they needed to put the transmission on the output end, not the pump end
The pump is being turned plenty fine, but the output is at high rpm while at idle
Agreed. Mount it to the trans with out the valve and use it as the prop shaft. Modulating the clutch and gears
In this case the axial motor isnt delivering the torque required, axial motors used in high torque applications need reduction gear, if not its common to use radial motors.
@@televisionandcheese Yes, thats how its done on hydraulic drive forklifts, through hub reduction gears.
Amazing how you seems to have an endless supply of old Lada cars to play with!
@@bullbutter2931 I wish I had one! :)
@@bullbutter2931 which Chevy is it?
Sou do Brasil e aqui esses carros são raros difícil de se ver
The drive motor is not your problem as you can see how well it rotated your wheels the problem is the pump usually requires a five to one mechanical advantage and that's on a three-quarter inch line it sounds like you don't have a big enough sprocket for large enough mechanical advantage
They didn't do the calculations
Exact same thought I had. It would be really easy with that chain drive they have. Just find a bigger sprocket. The fact they mounted the pump to the chassis is problematic as well. The chain is going to tension and loosen when the engine twists in it's motor mounts. The chain drive is definitely the... weakest link. ;P Sorry, couldn't resist.
Mmhmm this makes sense
Should put it on the output of the transmission in low gear and second only. It’s also not efficient at too high speed
Yes Definitely needs a gear reduction or a whole lot more power. Any sizes hydraulic powered equipment will drive around with the engine at idle. Yes it’s slow and pulls the motor down some but it still moves. Simply put a bigger sprocket on the pump or smaller on the motor itself.
Hi. Huge fan of Garage 54 here. Mechatronic engineer. You need to run that pump through the gearbox on a small petrol engine like that. The Volume/Power curve of that pump is optimized for a large displacement diesel engine which can achieve maximum power by about 1800 RPM. There is no chance of it producing any usable fluid power coupled like that. The pump curve is probably linear bell curve from 200 to 2000 RPM. Will just kill that little petrol engine before it can make any power. Also you need a relief valve on the pump output to prevent stalling the power unit in the case of overspeed vs load*pressure. About 150 bar should be good for your car.
Other than working out the ratios you did prove it's possible well done
I would rather try finding a closed loop type system over this one, its setup for this type of application. The reason why you cant pull off is the power requirement is to high based on your setup. If you had a variable displacement pump it would solve that. Here is the power calculation based on what I viewed, flow@2100 rpm is 210l/min, pressure was lets say 50bar so 210x50/600 = 17kw.
Try finding a LS variable displacement pump around 40cc with manual or electric control, LS (Load sensing) compatible valve that can handle 140l/min. You can keep the current motor.
Going this route will allow to you control flow over pressure and give you more control of the systems power draw at low speeds. Takeoff would be easier because you can run higher pressures and regulate the flow keeping the power draw down until the pressure drops off after you speed up.
Put the hydraulic motor in place of the engine and connect the motor to the gearbox input shaft... Use the engine only as a means to power the pump which will turn the motor and use the gearbox to adjust the gear ratio
It just needs a much larger sprocket on the pump. Its spinning faster than its meant to which is spinning the drive faster than its meant to. All that is loading the cars engine up too much. Spin the pump slower and it will spin the drive slower which is like changing it to first gear from fourth.
I've seen a track buggy setup like this except the motor was connected to the transaxle not just the differential. It was competitive so the idea does work well.
I live in Alaska and have also seen something like what you are talking about as well
I've seen it on @burning wrenches
It's how forklifts, cherry pickers, Scissor lifts etc work.
@@dogwalker666 yeah I know there's a lot of different hydraulic driven things but I was just talking about something you actually drive more than something that just moves. Was kinda like a Sprint car for a dirt oval so setup for high speed continuous load more than slow short distance work. The requirements for both would be very different I think🤷
@@brotang2953 actually you might be surprised how much torque the 7.5T forklift has, remove the counter weight and mast, Turn off the speed limiter, and they take off like a dragster, The solid tyres have terrible grip so power slides are easy, Now you know what the maintenance dpt get up to on weekend overtime 🤫
“Hey there fellas” has real Scott the Woz “Hey all, Scott here” energy.
Now we need Scott talking about silly car modifications and Garage 54 to do a series on GBA Accessories.
Ah, yes. Like trying to start off in 4th gear. This was a fun one!
Yep, exactly right, it's probably pretty close to 1:1
Try putting the pump on the output shaft of the gear box to give the engine as much of an advantage as possible
I recon a gearbox and clutch after the pump drive, basically run pump off crankshaft, then that’s connected to gearbox and clutch mechanism! Great videos guys!
Ur mentality for Inventing is on the right path and very interesting to watch
As someone who installs pto and pumps on trucks, you have quite a large pump for a small gas engine. Id say try more reduction to the pump or a smaller pump but with less displacment you wont see nearly as much ground speed since you wont spin the hydraulic motor as quick. Without looking it up i think its 1.5kw to 2-3gpm when dealing with smaller units like plows and small dump beds.
Horsepower requirements are all based on GPM x PSI. Ballpark required Input horsepower = GPM x PSI X 0.007 for a vane style pump.
They've just got a poorly matched displacement ratio between the pump and motor.
This is one of their easiest experiments.
I know because I've done it.
But I used a Toyota 4x4 chassis and ran the pump off the flywheel and the motor on the transfer case. It was permanent 4x4 and I ran tractor tyres.
It wasn't fast but it pulled a tonne of weight!
I always wanted to do it on my bike (also that way I could give it front-wheel drive), keep in mind that you need a radiator for the hydraulic fluid (it gets very hot).
I recommend using the gearbox of the car between the engine and the pump, and the direct differential (I still think that with first gear the engine would stop)
I like how he tries to stop an hydraulic excavator motor with his bare hand :)
"The producers said to ease up on the swearing"
"Ai....blin"
"Good enough"
An awesome CVT concept. I hope you guys get the bugs worked out, this could be a really cool system!
I think that if you found a way to mount the pump to the rear of the transmission gear box, you could reduce the load on the engine and get the desired results. The transmission would act as the stress reducer and give you more control over the amount of load needed by using the different drive gears. Think of what a PTO drive set up is like an treat it like that.
What about connecting the pump to a cvt thn to the back axle, the cvt would act like gears starting in low range thn change up into high range as the speed changes
Love the Petro Canada bucket.
I HAVE WANTED TO DO THIS FOR YEARS THANK YOU FOR PROVING IT'S POSSIBLE
Love this channel!!!
Yano I just love this channel, ladas kick arse too
Imagine using this kind of setup for rapid drivetrain swaps or extreme offroading, no custom driveshaft needed and much easier to armor :D
It would be nice except, its 10x the cost and you lose like 25% of the power though heat. Not to mention reliability and maintenance costs.
You could use a Vario transmission like it is used in modern tractors. It has pistons that ride on a spinning plate which can be tilted to make the pistons move in and out. But I'm not sure if you'd find one cheap and the right size.
Direct connect the pump to the transmission output shaft so you get a higher input torque and can choose the pump rotation speed then put the hydraulic motor on a 4:1 ratio where the motor shaft rotates 4 times for every 1 axle pinion rotation. This combination paired with the transmission gearing and axle gearing will ultimately ease the hydraulic effort and engine as well.
I noticed that while under load the hydraulic motor touched some snow and instantly turned to water with some steam, this indicates a overworked hydraulic system causing the fluid to overheat.
Would love to see a revamp of this project
thats the best so far in this channel
You are trying to take off in theoretical hi gear. If you drove the transmission input shaft you could use 1st gear.....
Drive the pump off the back of the engine. Move the transmission back - shorten the driveshaft. Hook the hydraulic motor to the transmission input shaft. You pump should turn the right way too.
First put a rod to keep the chain in tension, then idle the engine to 4000rpm where it has it's highest power output. With the level on the hydraulics you should control the amount of the oil streaming through. Hydrodynamic transmission.. 😎
You should have it coupled to the transmission. What you're trying to do is set off in final drive or close to it, and a lada can't start off in 4th gear, not enough torque.
You could also use a variable displacement pump, which would allow for reduction and changing the gear ratio of the motor, like a CVT would.
Yeah, I was thinking about hydraulic cvt too
The pump usually is mounted to crankshaft and drive motor connected thru a gear reduction box. It also sounded like you had a relief valve issue loosing flow and pressure at motor
You're videos never disappoint
Your.
In a parallel universe he works as a rocket scientist for Roskosmos xD
This was a something I Always wanted to see , but was afraid to see.
I Drive them all the time. Its very common on heavy plant.
You should use a variable displacement axial piston pump like what is used on a skid steer or small wheel loader. Then you can vary pump output which then regulates motor speed
Great video! I would love to see your re-visit this idea in the future. Maye with a more powerful engine, or refining your existing setup to work better.
Yup. Heavy equipment and lawn mowers have been using pump stators to drive a vehicle.
I wonder what it would be like to put the pump to the output on the transmission and use the clutch to spin the pump. And leave the hydraulic controls engaged. This way you can control the output speed and ratio on demand.
I'm a mechanical engineer, I love your channel. Have you tried building a custom frame and equipping hydraulic motors to each wheel and running off the same high flow pump?😮 Also you wouldn't need to PTO. Just engine to the pump and to the wheel motors.
You could use variable displacement hydraulic pump and hydraulic motor. Then use planetary gear, connect engine output shaft to planet gear, the hydraulic motor to ring gear and after all this you technically have continuously variable transmission (like Fendt Vario).
Hope to see u work on this again
Good concept. You should try using a hydro static transmission, as used on large commercial grass cutting, plant machinery. This will overcome you take off and slow down problems.
I was thinking the same thing. I had a garden tractor (bigger than a riding lawn mower but smaller than the smallest utility tractor, with a size 0 or size 1 limited three-point hitch) with a hydrostatic transmission. For other folks, it ran by setting the engine RPM at peak power then controlling the oil flow with one of two foot pedals, one of which would send the machine forward and the other of which would send it backwards. The service brake was on the other side from the direction pedals.
I sure would like to have one of those Ladas here in the US.
Try to find an old Datsun B210. Very similar imo, after having owned a B210 myself and lots of hands-on time with a Lada. They are both very simple to work on and have similar styling. The B210 was sold in large quantity for the NA market and there are still quite a few on the road.
Scale this up to a UAZ and this should work great!
Maybe mount the pump after the gearbox and get rid of the valves?
yes
open loop hydrostatic drive, with electronic proportioning control on a bent axis variable speed piston pump and motor sized and paired to the engine's peak torque.
@@wacabby basically power the motor and use the pump to drive the rear axle....
keep the valves as it's a CVT transmission but yes your rite i think the pump after the lada's original transmission
@@richardprice5978 No, replace the transmission completely with a closed loop hydrostatic drive system. bent axis variable speed axial piston pump with load sensing, pressure compensation, over speed circuits, compensation valves, hot oil diverter valves and a smaller charge pump to supply the leakoil circuit. the motor needs to be connected to a final drive reductor box to transfer the operating speed of the motor to transmit torque effectively to the drive axle. th-cam.com/video/efV_P0wSvEw/w-d-xo.html
GARAGE 54. Here is a hydraulic test to try. Take the setup you have, dump the hydraulic motor and replace it with two fast-acting hydraulic rams attached to each rear wheel. Like an old steam railroad engine. Somehow using electric solenoids to actuate the hydraulic cylinders in time with each other to move the rear wheels. Also, install a throttle lock to set engine speed to constant rpm.
Gear reduction drive or different motor that spins slower. Higher engine rpms means higher flow and pressure. Looks like a good start though.
as the pump is driven at what should be adequate rpm's (avg electric motor is turning at 1750rpm-diesel less than 3k rpm/petrol engine revving far past that) i would say that the pressure is inadequate or the drive motor is toast. to address the inadequate pressure problem...if that's the case...first make sure the pump is rotating in the correct direction and the seals are intact. second...make sure the lines are unobstructed.....screens-etc clear.
seems to me that the setup you guys chose was correct in it's ability to drive the hydraulic motor.
Love all your cool ideas 💡
Hey about your transparent car parts you should try a transparent turbochanger.
Watching the gasses flow would be amazing and I'm sure he would be able to put water vapor or some form of particulate in the intake so that we can see the air being compressed
Just a matter of finding a transparent material that can withstand that high of a temperature, alternatively they could make one out of plexiglass and only run the motor for a little bit at a time. Or simply blow the whole thing thing up for giggles lol
The idea is to see the air compress on the compresor side as the exaust side the only material that is trasparent and could withstand that temperatures is quartz witch is expensive and hard to mold(melts at 1520°c) and you wont see to much as everything is hot there.
As for the compresor side a simple silicon mold, a negative of the housing, sould be made and on that mold the plastic.
Cool stuff!
Pump to motor ratio is huge it’s like being in 5th gear. What about using power steering pumps. like 4 of them with 4 valves then you can add each one for more flow as it gets faster.
Thanks for sharing 😀😀
I agree with the other comments, drive it from the output of he gearbox, you can reduce the revs and increase the torque...
I hooked a 5 horse brig's motor to a crown Victoria frame and axel the same way you did with the hydraulic motor the centrifugal clutch lasted about two feet
Put a smaller gear on the engine and a larger gear on the pump. This will increase the torque to the pump while decreasing the strain on the motor.
You should make a diesel-electric Lada, like a freight train.
Love your videos
Idea is sound the Pump is the issue and the lines might be a bit under sized. We did something like this is school but on a go cart
I'm thinking same. The diameter of hydraulic cabels is too big and can't make pressure enought. I've self builded tractor #Garage54
@@duch5829 Agreed but to small and there wont be enough flow. the math is really important on this one.
Use valving to switch the direction of flow to the motor would give forward and reverse. -- Or separate the the transmission from the engine and ditch the clutch - turn the engine sideways and mount the the pump directly to the motor - then mount the hydraulic motor to the input shaft of the transmission; that would give you 4-forward ratios and a reverse, but would otherwise operate like a hydraulically driven machine
Need to put a larger gear on the pump, or an interstitial jackshaft with geaing reduction to increase torque while lowering the rotational speed (think of a front-loading washing machine, tiny pulley on the motor, huge pulley attached to the drum), as well as a reduction gearbox on the drive unit too, again, more torque, less spin...
This is how Forklifts, Scissor lifts etc, work.
I bought an excavator the other day and it was missing the pump. Not saying you got my missing pump but seems like you got my dang pump!
Take a planetary gear out of an automatic transmission and put it between the hydraulic motor and the differential input. That should reduce it in an easy way by about 3:1
RPMs will not be enought then. These lada engines rev about 4,5k.
THEY NEED 8:1 TO 11:1 3:1 WILL NOT BE ENOUGH.
Gear box to power pump, pump to motor, motor directly to axle. My first thought 😆
Mount the pump on the transmission end. Then you have gear reductiionn as well as a clutch.
No... Put the hydraulic motor on the input of the transmission "front" and leave the pump driven off the crank.
To get the maximum pump pressure and flow, the pump needs to be turning and rated max rpm. Pressure is torque, flow is speed . Over-speeding pump may give a little more but will eventually wreck it. After that it's all down to gearing based on torque of hydraulic motor
You need a hydrostatic valve and pump. The valve is closing as soon as you pull the lever forcing all the pressure through the relief valve. The pressure should drop when you get the valve open. If you have pivots there use a speed valve from that
I might have hooked it to the transmission so that you had a clutch you could use to control it. Even going to the fly wheel might have worked then again you could use the clutch
Probably a more powerful hydraulic system! Great experiment though!👌😎👍
Is it just me or does this show make you want to own a Lada?
Find yourself a Leeboy Challenger 7 and compare notes. Those are very simple, they have a hydraulic pump splined directly to the engine flywheel (Diesel engine though) and run lines from the pump to a control valve which either dumps all fluid directly back to the tank, or if you open a spool valve it will then run the fluid through lines that you have connected to a drive pump which directly couples to the differential. They get up to a healthy 15-20 mphish and along with that they run other implements such as a broom, lift, and tilt. Perhaps to avoid pump cavitation connect it more or less like a dump truck or concrete truck and use a PTO (power train out) which connects to the transmission through a separate gear.
I love y’all’s ingenuity and curiosity, y’all answer the questions we never thought to ask!
Final suggestion, a lot of construction equipment uses a double reduction planetary gear set on the final drives, so in essence maybe coupling a second differential like y’all have done before would be a good start, or find a way to couple the hydraulic motor to the transmission and you’ll have gear reduction and the luxury of multiple gear sets, this should be very interesting!
Shouldn't the gearbox mounted AFTER the pump in order to keep same load on the engine?
Shoulda had an Alfa Romeo with rear mounted gearbox/transaxle, remove the prop shaft, then have the hydraulic motor drive the gearbox. Good reduction ratio, and its needed, look at hydradrive forklifts with a hub reduction gear - theres reasons for that gear. But such Alfa Romeos arent disposable, not gonna happen.
Just use a High Ratio Diff or put it in the transmission shaft!
Hydrodrive is a well proven concept. The thing is that hydrodrive components are if any and all which are available, engineered for large and probably turbocharged diesel applications. Even in those cases, like a tipper truck or an Excavator, when selecting hydraulic gearthe pump is usually driven after the gearbox with a reduction at least 2:1
You should make a Lada snow plow! Attach a plow and move it with the hydraulics, if you want to get really fancy make something that will spin and shoot the snow away like the lawnmower episode
if we assume the pump and the motor have the same displacement per revolution, you are basically in high gear, from the looks of it, the pump is probably bigger than the motor, so if the pump moves 30cc of oil per rev and the motor only takes 20cc of oil to move 1 rev, then you effectively have a 3:2 overdrive. You need a smaller pump...higher pressure, lower volume. I would bet the motor is capable of a few thousand ft-lbs. of torque if fed up to it's rated pressure. You guys should add a pressure gauge to see whats going on in the system, chances are you are barely hitting 100-300psi in a system that should be running at up to 3000 psi.
Need a gear box between hydraulic motor and differential!
You must use a bigger chain sprocet on the pump to get the max torq from the engine. I think the pump sprocet has to be at least 4 times bigger than the crank sprocet.
need to reduce gear of trasmission?
install a smaller pump and it will work as a reducer
You guys can use a Rev Limiter to limit the engine rpm's and floor it!!!!
Excavator drive motor designed to pull tones of machine But can't pull a small car.
That pumps still spinning so I'd be checking pump pressure and or the drive motor seals .
Incase the fluid under pressure is escaping back into the system
therefore not turning under load.
This would be a neat idea for a low sitting rear wheel drive. Something where you wouldn’t have to have a spot in the floorboard for the driveshaft, if you know what I mean.
Yeah, need reduction gear i think. Hydraulic drive forklifts got hub reduction gears, to overcome the low low-rpm torque of axial hydraulic motors. Radial motors are used in agricultural implements where high starting torque is needed, they got pretty much full torque available from 0.5 to 1 rpm.
it would be awesome to see you guys try make a hydraulic supercharged Lada similar to what Alfa did with their GTA in the 60s. They made something like 250hp from a 1.6l engine at the time.
Agreed
Try one of those v drive transmissions it might give that pump the help it needs to move the car
Probably could've gotten further had they used a pool noodle as a drive shaft.
You should add pressure accumulator to the system!!
That's why gearbox was invented.
You need a smaller pump or larger motor, or you need to put the motor before the transmission. Then you can use the tranny to reduce revs.
I would say motor needs to connect to a gear box whet you need is a variable desplacment Dan doss 120 hydrastat pump with matching drive motor it has a farward and reverse lever John Deere combines and cotton pickers sprayers all have this system. Plenty of torque but limited top speed the transmission between drive motor and differential will solve all your issues
Try a smaller pump, less oil but higher revs. That will give you alot more Torque at the wheels.
This is Great !!!!
I saw a model 4 wheeler design that used hydraulic motors at all four wheels. Seems common sense to discard all the complexity and just spin a pump instead.
The world's longest torque converter
yesssssssssssss I've been asking for this
1- Diesel motor
2- transmission between the diff and the motor
3- beefy clutch, PTOs are a thing for a reason
I love how you're basically making a hydrostatic car, so goofy.. It seemed like you are already using a valve as a flow restrictor to reduce the instant torque issue, but on the off chance you aren't that might help you not just shock the whole system and break something once you have a good reduction gearing.