Does Humanity Still Believe in Magic?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 มิ.ย. 2018
- As far as science and technology goes, the 21st century is an exciting time to be alive. We are curing more and more diseases. We are developing better and better space travel. Some see these advances as evidence that religion and magic are losing their influence on society. Magic especially has been viewed as a debunked "proto-science" with little credibility in modernity. But sociological data suggests that many humans still practice and believe in magic.
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Sources:
Jason Josephson-Storm, "The Myth of Disenchantment"
The Atlantic, "The New Age of Astrology,”: www.theatlantic.com/health/ar...
WBUR, For Millenials, Astrology is on the Rise: www.wbur.org/onpoint/2018/01/1...
Pew Research, Is God Dead?: www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/...
Psychic Service Industry research: www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...
www.businessinsider.com/profes...
Images:
Alchemical writings: commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...
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I have a degree in Computer Science, and can tell ya from watching movies that people STILL DO believe in magic, they just call it "hacking" or "programming". The amount of insane, silly things people think my profession is capable of rivals what the medieval commoners thought the alchemists and wizards could do.
In the modern mythos, white hat hackers stand in the place of wizards, black hats stand in for sorcerers, and rogue AIs take the place of dangerous and demonic demons.
Tried to gift you karma but realized this isn't reddit lol this is well said
We literally call them daemons
@@VibeBlind right
I have no idea how any of this stuff works, but I do not consider it magic. It may exist is a black box that I don't comprehend, but that doesn't make it magic.
Two of my master's thesis advisors are married. One day I was visiting them at their home and they were working on a project together. One is a quantitative researcher, the other qualitative. The qualitative person referred to the statistical work the other was doing as "magic," but I certainly did not take that to mean that she thought it was actually a metaphysical phenomenon.
@@philosophical.traveler What OP means is that though an average person may not use the word "magic" to describe computer programming, what they believe about it to a computer scientist is as magic to a scientist (i.e. "silly" and "insane").
Whether you believe something is magic is not about the word you use or whether you think it's something metaphysical, it's whether your beliefs about it is grounded in reality -- says OP. And I think that's a great point.
What has contributed to that view of disenchantment is also, I think, the declining _status_ of supernatural explanations in the modern world. We call it superstition, folklore, pseudo-science, and similar terms - while many people may believe in those things, they are less acceptable explanations in society. The decline of _organised_ religion in regions like Europe is connected to that (though it's not the same) - while you may still believe in some god and his commandments, using that as an argument in the public sphere is somewhat frowned upon, or (like in a political debate) downright unacceptable in many cases. Unscientific beliefs have become less visible, so to speak, or less "official". And that still holds true, I think.
The other issue is the boundary between magic and science. When Kepler wrote horoscopes, did he think he was doing magic, or was that science to him? The same with Newton and alchemy, and so on. So when Freud based his belief in experimental evidence (however flawed), was he really believing in the "supernatural"? The early history of chemistry is inextricably linked to alchemy - when they were trying to create ceramics, it was science, but with gold, it was magic?
I.e. the fact that Newton wrote about alchemy, is not an argument against disenchantment, per se. It depends on his mindset, how he approached the topic. Maybe Josephson-Storm addresses that, though.
Sorry for the length. :D
varana312 -I like that you think❤️
How you approach things or mindset definitely has a lot to do with mysticism. It's all a game of language and how words affect our consciousness. Hermeticism is the nexus between science and spirituality, and that was the philosophical mindset many great minds in history had like Newton, DaVinci, and Hegel
Yeah man whatever.
varana312 Good points.
Excellent comment. Anytime a scholar, historian, scientist, or activist is promoting a "Grand Narrative That Explains Everything Correctly" they're probably missing some important nuance.
You could have just gone online and seen all the tumblr witches.
lol. true. its about time someone said that; its clear as broad daylight from historical accounts to social networks that this "madness" has always been here, has gone no where and is here to stay.
They believe in aliens and spirits but will puke when u say the word god.
But it’s all quirky now
🤣
@@spithere4933 I mean to be fair, aliens and spirits have a higher chance of being real than a singular god in the sky.
that "yes new cancer treatments are being discovered all the time" line was a missed opportunity for an astrology joke at the expense of Cancers.
I think the myths and magic slowly evolve into new shapes - urban legends, "meme magic", conspiracies, and so on. Even if old magical beliefs "go out of style" in some distant future, there will always be something else.
Cryptids and Nessie for instance.
I love how unbiased and non-judgmental these videos are. Just facts
Excellent job on this. Our generation may be more secular, but it isn’t without mystical belief in the least.
*drama on*
WHEN ARE YOU FINALLY MAKING A COLLAB WITH ANDREW???? I NEED ONE IN MY LIFE D:
*drama off*
Love you though, Drew
Jesus loves you, Drew. You bear the image of our Maker.
Genetically Modified Skeptic Because unlike God, magic will never judge you or ask anything of you?
Aww, come on GMS...even atheists could use a little magic in their life! 🎩 Don't tell Penn Gilette.
your channel is awesome too
Nietzsche was not saying that no one believed in god anymore, or that all supernatural beliefs had been wiped from the earth. He was saying that the thing that kept people from being immoral and unable to live in societies was no longer the fear of god, but instead was replaced by a kind of directionless guilt that, if we allowed our ideas to evolve would be replaced with an awareness that was the Ubermensch. You can't counter what Nietzsche was saying by pointing out that spiritualism was on the rise, that might actually be evidence of people losing their Christian framework and flailing about trying to find something to replace it rather than embracing the freedom and self actualization that Nietzsche thought we should be striving for.
Also, maybe Freud thought that he could do ESP because he was a cocaine addict whose ideas were all nonscientific fabrications that include falsifying data and just making things up. None of Freudian Psychology is useful in any real way, the only useful purpose it served was spurring people to study the mind in a disciplined scientific manner that ended up refuting everything that Freud's drug addled brain had made up.
Despite the last two paragraphs I actually agree that it is a mistake to understand the modern world as disenchanted. I actually wrote a paper for a philosophy of money class in college that included a section on a few modern psychological experiments that show people still have magical beliefs.
I appreciate this video quite a lot and also the rest of your content thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Perseus Gold, you got that backward, since you are making the positive claim that clairvoyance exists (as Freud apparently seemed to believe) you have to be able to demonstrate or provide evidence that it is possible, not the person denying the claim. If you manage to prove the paranormal is anything other than a fraud and actually works you can win $1,000,000.00 from the Amazing James Randi. Not only that you will go on to worldwide fame maybe win a Nobel prize which is another $1,000,000.00. You will be sought after for interviews and as a lecturer. In short your fortune will be made. But that is highly unlikely, because no one so far has been able to do that, every attempt has proven to be a fraud. Don't get me wrong, like religion or belief in magic not every person who believes is a con artist, some honestly believe they have the gift. They are just poor deluded individuals.
You might be over-simplifying the impact of Freud's ideas. Much of the overall structure of the unconscious that he posited is still used as a working schema. Consider Jacques Lacan.
Furthermore, Freud's treatments have themselves been refined and appropriated to different contexts and, again, the terminology is still in use in legitimate, effect treatment settings.
Like most thinkers, Freud worked with his perception of the reality he encountered and drew conclusions submitted to a scholarly community. Many of these conclusions have been refined, some discarded; this is the natural development of all thought. We revere Socrates and his reflections on consciousness, but many don't think their souls originated in a celestial procession before being cast down to earth, or that humanity began as hermaphroditic creatures joined at the back separated by the gods'rage. Human cultures have taken what they see as true and valuable and left out all the rest...or not.
Why don't my replies stick
Maybe this loss of a sense of enchantment in the real world is what has led to a proliferation of enchantment in books and especially in video gaming! We have simply transfered the location of the enchanted world into a more "virtual" setting. And many people (especially the younger set) are so enchanted by it as to spend more time in the virtual world than in the real world.
Good point!
I personally have never played a role-playing game myself (I'm a senior citizen and would rather read a book) but I am very interested in how they are shaping the brains of the younger generation (for better or worse I don't know, probably both) and in gaining insight into what it feels like to grow up with them. (I recently saw "Ready Player One" and it seemed to me like a pretty literal depiction of where society might well be in 20 or 25 years.)
You forget that before the written word we had story tellers. That is, all of the previous ideas were the imagination of generations and the concept is the same regardless of it being verbal, written, or software. It was always "virtual".
Why don't my replies stick
@@nosuchthing8 Maybe they are not being upvoted enough
I read this book a few years ago and it was a real eye opener. People believe what brings them comfort and the strength to go on living. The truth has only one virtue - that it’s true - but otherwise it’s often useless.
Too bad this tendency to stick our heads in the sand & believe silly crap that brings us comfort always ends up costing the human race dearly. 😒
Was it Discworld?
The more I learn about science and the natural world the more enchanting I find it.
I love science and I love magic, and I definitely agree that the natural world is one of the most magical things around
I'm a little surprised you didn't mention Carl Jung, what with the way Jordan Peterson working off the idea of Archetypes has proven somewhat of a sensation among young, disenchanted men. Even the conservative-leaning "rationalists" who, in my experience, are some of the most common people to decry religion as some kind of "uncivilized" turn to pseudo-spiritual philosophical ideas, it seems.
I'm not really a fan of Peterson, but I am a fan of Jung's general writing and the way his exploration of mysticism and Gnosticism has impacted some of the most popular works in pop culture, particularly in traditionally "nerdy" areas like gaming, anime and webcomics.
Your content has proven invaluable in putting historical context behind philosophies and spiritual traditions as I try to start conversations about these works, so thank you for that! Been meaning to say.
optimistic Duelist
Ha, I guess I shouldn't be surprised you watch Religion for Breakfast given how heavily your own videos draw on religion and myth. I'm a little curious what your experience with modern rationalists has been. Most rationalists I've talked to are pretty centrist politically (on average, at least) and I generally consider myself one of them (not really the Jordan Peterson camp, more the Scott Alexander camp). I've definitely noticed that although many (probably most?) rationalists are atheists, they often use mythological or religious symbolism.
I think part of the reason for this has been to distinguish the rationalist movement from the 'new atheist' movement (primarily the 'militant' atheism of Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens). It's a pretty ideologically diverse group, though, so I wouldn't be surprised if the rationalists I've encountered are completely different from the rationalists you've encountered.
Secular use of myth and symbolism is definitely interesting, Peterson is far from the first to get a lot of mileage out of Jung's Archetypes. It is really tricky sometimes to disentangle belief in supernaturalism from the symbolic usage of myth. If civilization were wiped out, what would future historians conclude from our archaeological record? Would the separation between fiction and sincere belief come through?
My experience with all the camps I implicated--rationalists (the word I used), Peterson fans (the people I was discussing) and New Atheists (probably the group I was actually thinking of when I used the word 'rationalists') is pretty limited.
Traditionally I've mostly existed in fandom and lgbt spaces, so my perspective is that of an effective rando viewing these groups from a distance. I've been learning about the diverse groups and how they define and distinguish themselves as I go--thanks for helping me clarify my perspective some more there, and sorry about any untoward conflation of different groups.
To comment on your closing question, I'm not sure how meaningful the distinction between fiction and sincere belief really is. I consider myself pretty secular, but as you noted I work heavily with myth and storytelling myself--and that's because I think they're useful ways to clarify and sharpen our values as a culture and goals as individuals and communities.
If, for example, growing up enmeshed in the philosophies and mythological symbols of, say, JRPGs shaped my values as a person and helped me forge an idea of what I want to contribute to the world, and what I'd like the world to eventually become--then how much does it matter whether or not I literally believe in the reality of Cloud Strife, per se?
I'm not sure what the answer to that is. Ultimately, religious and historical scholarship can only give us a macrocosmic view of what any particular spiritual or philosophical tradition represents. Very rarely do we get to dive into the muddled nuance of the faiths and thoughts of the individual. Something is always lost in translation.
Hence, I think we'd probably get just as much, if not more cultural value out of considering the ideas we're faced with from old societies and the variety of ways we might engage with those ideas in modern culture (as with, say, the variety of works I cover influenced by Gnosticism) than we ever will from trying to guess at what the original people who came up with the symbols actually thought or believed.
Not that searching for answers wrt: the latter isn't valuable, though--it is, and extremely so. I'm just kinda rambling as to the reasons behind my own methodology at this point.
Wow, that is a perspective that never would have occurred to me but I can see how it makes sense. It seems so obvious that what people actually believe matters more than what they say or how they act, but now that I think about it I can't put my finger on _why_ exactly. In fact, as I'm writing this out it occurs to me that this could be a Hope/Rage dichotomy. Something about grounding in truth and reality versus the ideas and symbols people use to relate to that reality. I'm not sure if I've got the aspect terminology correct, though.
Your views as someone outside the rationalist sphere is really valuable, so thanks for sharing. The 'movement' (if it can even really be called that) has been growing recently and if we want to become a cultural force on any level then we will have to contend with the public consciousness (or, more likely, subconsciousness) of what they associate with 'rationalism'. Probably it would be nice to have a better (and more specific) name that doesn't carry the historical baggage or the implied judgement, but for better or worse most of them identify as 'rationalists' and its really hard to change a name once it sticks.
You must not live in the states because it’s the conservatives that are super religious and delusional
He specifically said "Conservative leaning rationalists." Think the Libertarian-Atheist type, not the bible thumping Reaganite. I grant you they're the minority within conservatism, but they are out there.
I work at a research institute and I talk to scientists every day. A lot of them are deeply religious, and believe in stuff like luck, karma, and the like. I would even say that the way many of them feel about their own work is not far from the way a medieval theologian would feel about themselves.
A lot of scientists through the centuries have been Christian or at least hold to some kind of faith. Like one of my heroes, Michael Faraday. I am somewhat of a scientist myself. Many Christians believe science is just a way to better understand God's creation.
There is nothing wrong with being a religious scientist i think. You just need to understand what you can test and what you can't. If you can test it, it is science. If you can't, it is Faith. Both are great, but you need to know which is which.
@@jorenbosmans8065 I think that definition is too simple and requires a third option; some things we can't test *yet.*
@@jonunciate7018 yes and no.
Yes, because somethings we can't test yet, but we might be able to test in the Future (I agree with that).
No, because if we can't test it yet, then we can't test it. At that Point it is Faith when you think it is real. The place where A theory belongs just isn't rigid. Something which is Faith today, might be science tomorrow (and be proven or disproven).
@@PracticalBibleStudies The scientific method is certainly exposing and plugging the gaps in the bible myths.
The faith word, like spiritual, is gap filler for pretending to know what we do not know.
Just want to say, I found your channel a few months back and you've become a must watch. Keep up the good work.
I would also like to add two things:
1. Weber's concept of "disenchantment" seems much more narrow than the overall eradication of religion. And at the end of the Protestant Ethic (which is a critique of Marx), he calls for a particular re-enchantment of society with religion still surviving at the end. It would seem that Weber's disenchantment has more to do with what he anticipated as a decline in the occult (magic, witchcraft, etc..) and not so much religion itself. The conflation of the two is something Weber avoided, but is often read into his work, probably due to the factors you mentioned: an undying adherence to the Enlightenment as the panacea for society (a 20th century creation) .
2. Disenchantment is difficult to measure and religious innovations in the 20th century disabuse us of any notion that they don't exist. Spiritualists, New Age, Orientalism (even among New Atheists like Sam Harris who see Eastern Mysticism as the solution to Western Christendom) point away from a disenchanted society. Perhaps it might be more accurate to say that "disenchantment" is less so an explanation for the West's adherence to secular values, and more so an ongoing project by secularists, atheists, and protestants.
Not sure if someone has already pointed this out, but Nietzsche should be read as advocating for demythologizing anything. That's the opposite of his argument in birth of tragedy, which is the text most relevant to this conversation. He explicitly criticizes philosophy for ridding us of faith and illusion, and urges the creation of a new cultural mythology.
I'm loving your facial hair.
natureman494 The beard , very Orthodoxy :)
Has it bewitched you?
Perhaps he's in mourning for his barber who died recently.
Seems unfair to use britian for europe.
I think UK is probably the one of the most atheist countries in the world.
@@101yayo no it isnt it is as religious as every other country. Czech Republic is the most Atheist country.
@@tuxedosteve1904 I was sure it would be us Dutchies but it's Sweden apparently
@@ParadoxapocalypSatan the dutch? They created the Christian communism.
At least it was mentioned. One would think when answering the question "Does Humanity Still Believe in Magic?" all of humanity would be considered, but I guess nobody live in Africa, Asia, Oceania and America. All of humanity is in US or Europe.
Interesting video. It was great meeting you at VidCon! Looking forward to seeing more.
Fun fact. Nietzsche attended a séance with Lou Andreas-Salomé. He was very aware of these movements and has some interesting things to say (with a range of political goals) about alchemy. Cosima Wagner wrote in her journals that a family friend was being haunted by a creature from the fourth dimension. Not in a position to cite my sources right now, but can if there's an interest.
broadly speaking, i've always kinda seen the difference between scientific and spiritual explanations for the universe to be driven by the same innate human desire to make sense of everything. ultimately there should be no reason they can't coexist. most of the criticism towards religious/mystical thinking comes down to a lack of 'accuracy' and a reluctance to accept dogmatic faith without empirical evidence and so forth. But looking past the surface level of dogma/scripture/faith, most religious texts and mythologies are filled with metaphors for mathematical concepts and observations of the cosmos. modern science/philosophy does the same thing, but with better tools, clarity instead of allegory, and more information with which to understand of the laws of nature. both things also share the problem of being easily misinterpreted and skewed in all sorts of ways. humans ultimately crave meaning. one should develop a deep scientific understanding of the universe with science, then enrich their understanding through the imagery and poetry that these scientific concepts have stirred in humanity since the dawn of time
Many religions of the past used the limited "scientific" understanding that they had (between quotation marks because science didnt existed in those days like it does now) to try and reinforce their believes, in fact the catolic church used to invest heavily on such investigations because they used to believe that any such discovery would coincide with the bible as "the sole faith" strenghtening their position (of course that isnt the case and now you have people claiming that dinosaurs where buried by satan to confuse people and that the world is only 10,000 years old)
Now a days science has basically completly separated from religion and as a tool to explain the world is a trillion times more powerful, religion mostly exists because we humans really want to believe in the super natural despite everything
Got a book that presents a counter-argument for you: Techgnosis by Erik Davis.
It argues that not only did all those spiritualist and occultist movements happen at the same time as technological integration, the integration of technological innovation into society itself both has relied on and still relies on magical thinking. There's a reason the 80s had so many movies where "the internet" and "cyberspace" were imagined as actual places you could go and computers having reality-bending power. There's a reason why people get weirded out about 5G. There's a reason that during those late 1800s/early 1900s spiritualist movements, they also integrated mystical notions about the wonders of electricity and galvanism. And there's a reason that today, a lot of spiritualists are integrating terms from quantum physics.
It's not that any sufficiently advanced form of technology is indistinguishable from magic, it's that magic itself is simply _any mysterious practice that seemingly produces results._ It's not "indistinguishable", it _is_ a category of technology. From the original conceptions of Hermes Trismegistus onwards, magic has simply been the notion that there are arcane principles upon which the world works and that the world can be manipulated by uncovering these secret principles (and codifying them for yourself so nobody could steal your secret wizard knowledge). A math formula for designing a city without traffic problems, for example, was an example of arcane knowledge expected of a wizard. We today try to demystify those principles, but _it is not physically possible to demystify them all because nobody is capable of understanding all scientific knowledge._ So all that's changed is that wizards went from being the occasional rare lucky medieval researcher with a government-paid analyst job (aka a "court magician") to being a common job position in many industries.
It's not possible to eliminate magical thinking, because nobody can be an expert in everything - everyone has to have categories of knowledge where they accept the result even if they don't know how it happens. And when you have those categories of knowledge, people inevitably wind up filling in the gaps as best as they can.
Just found you and subbed. Great work and I am enjoying viewing your older video's, plus the comments following your work are interesting and full of good leads.
And we also believe in modern magical objects that for us, those help to improve some characteristics like beauty, charism, strengh, etc
Just discovered this channel, and it's super interesting! Keep up the good work! :)
Glad that you found it! Welcome!
Asking "do people still believe in magic" on youtube is like asking do people drink beer on the Oktorberfest.
Spirits are real guys. I'm not religious (I used to be) and I'm a pretty skeptical person. But I tried learning and using tarot and holy moly, it's like talking to a separate entity, a spirit. I compare my answers to my friends who also read tarot a lot, and they're always the same or at least very similiar. Try it for yourself if you don't want to pay for tarot readers, it's not that hard. (ask for protection first just to be safe). Though, be careful because you can be obsessed with it and too depended on it even for trivial things (like me ha, that's why my spirit guides ban me from using it for a while). You can also overthink and be scared of your future (because the card always right :", even if future can change). I know this sounds crazy, and I also used to think it's fake, but it's not. Tarot and other oracle cards are powerful (you can even spy someone lol).
No
Do something good on Kabbalism .I'm really curious what your research would look like.THUMBS UP FOR ALL THE GOOD WORK
Magic is too cool to be left in the past
I think we still believe in reality bending - it's a moot question how much reality bends to our expectation and how much our expectation bends to reality.
Hey, great channel (and video)! Just wanna make a quick book recommendation on the subject: "The Re-enchantment of the west" by Christopher Partridge. Partridge's main claims are that there is a shift during the 20th century, from organized religion to more personalized forms of belief ("Oh, I'm not religious but I am spiritual" etc.), and that occult tradition greatly influences popular culture today (see Dr. Strange, Medium, the whole horror film genre, etc.).
It really depends on the definition of magic imo
So in your opinion astrology, magic crystals and ghosts don't count as magic?
Hello fellow Ravenclaw!
Wonderful video, and thank you so much for alerting me to this book.
Excellent presentation and a thesis which deserves further exploration.
Man, your videos are awesome, just absolutely fascinating! I think humanity has a kind of innate need for spirituality, and even in a world where science can explain more and more of the world around us - and indeed, where we can say with increasing certainty that god really is dead, or nonexistent - we will always find ways to maintain spiritual practices. I think the challenge for humanity moving forward will be in resolving this contradiction by integrating spiritual beliefs and traditions with a naturalistic worldview which is cognizant of how those religious practices affect the practitioner and the spiritual community.
On a side note, I'm shocked you never mentioned Crowley in all of this. Do you think you could do a video on Thelema some time? It's kinda hard to parse, so I'd be super interested in hearing your take on it.
Also! Could you do a video on Chaos Magick/DKMU/urban shamanism and the whole modern occult revival going on right now? I absolutely love your videos, and this is super interesting to me, so I'm really eager to see what you could say on it.
1:15 - Okay, I’m not gonna lie, that graph straight triggered me with how stupid it is 😂
My Big dream is to do religion studies. I always wait for your new videos and I can tell one thing ; they are amazing! Don't stop it!!
I would have thought just the term extra terrestrial would refute the premise that the modern world is less enchanted. I see very little difference in being abducted by an alien versus a fairy. I would also think that many people will follow the instructions of a medical doctor without understanding the theory behind it anymore than most religious practice.
I'd agree with the first point.
However, we don't place our faith in medicine itself, we place it in our individual doctors, in the trust that they know more about the objective scientific theories of medicine than ourselves. You cannot reasonably expect everyone to have a perfect working knowledge of medicine, that stuff is complicated, man!
We put our faith in professionals all the time, pilots are another example; we don't consider planes to be a miracle, we understand the science behind it, or at least, we trust that our aero engineers do.
If anything we have faith in ourselves, and our ability to logically and systematically deconstruct the natural world we find ourselves immersed in, and we're really good at taking notes.
More critically, we harness natures very laws to our own ends, and on that point where we're observably causing a mass extinction event, strangling our own planet.
And to that end, the world has become disenchanted, that critical idea is completely unprecedented before our age.
We're dealing with magnitudes many thousands of times greater than ever before, and this power doesn't come from anything eternal and divine, it comes from ourselves.
For a fairy to exist would violate almost everything we know about nature, and fairies are a clearly mythological/magical tradition. They are a "supernatural" concept, and presented and understood as such. Discovering fairies would not be the equivalent of discovering a previously unknown kind lizard or butterfly. Extraterrestials, if they exist, are not in any way conceived of as supernatural. The do not violate any aspects of physics or biology. They are entirely plausible, and in fact, given that we have no reason to believe that our planet is fantastically exceptional and unique, most scientists consider their existence probable. What is NOT probable is the idea that they would be arriving secretly in Arkansas corn fields, idiotically killing cows, and kidnapping hillbillies for no sensible purpose. No scientist takes alien abduction stories seriously ---- they are obviously just another manifestation of common delusional states intertwined with religion and garbled snippets of misunderstood science --- but most scientists see nothing "magical" about the potential existence of extraterrestials.
@@philpaine3068 In physics there is a theory that any particle that could have a positive or negative charge exists in both states. This means that the universe is being constantly recreated in both states infinitum. Since we have no way to disprove the theory science says it must be true. If that doesn't blur the line between magic and science I don't know what does.
@@johnkilmartin5101 It looks like you have a garbled notion of what scientists think. When you say "since we have no way to to disprove the theory science says it must be true" you demonstrate that you don't understand what is going on, or how science works. You are referring to a speculative hypothesis that some physicists have advanced as a POSSIBLE explanation for observed phenomena. No physicist is proclaiming that it "must" be true, and no scientific body will assert that it "must" be true, because no such speculation becomes anything more than that until it is confirmed by empirical evidence. The phenomenon of quantum uncertainty is generally accepted because it can be demonstrated (and we now have a pile of sophisticated technology that employs it). The idea that "the universe is being constantly recreated in both states infinitum" is NOT what science "says is true". It's a garbled misrepresentation of an idea tossed around when physicists drop by the pub for a few pints and a game of darts. Please try to learn what physicists actually think and say by studying physics and talking to physicists, not by quoting media articles or silly misrepresentations by non-physicists.
@@philpaine3068 It really boils down to can an experiment be designed that disproves or proves the theory. I think the fact a layman can't grasp the details makes it for all intensive purpose 'magic' yet a Nobel prize can be received. My entire knowledge on the subject comes from a biography of Bill Shockley and an interview with a professor at I believe is the Max Planck Institute. The fact people with an IQ double mine spent time thinking about this tells me enchantment exists.
This is a great video because it's always been such a curious phenomenon how we learn about science and yet room always remains in the ontology for ghosts and supernatural synchronicity to exist at the fringes of the natural-empirical model of the world.
Love this video
This is fascinating. We had a similar discussion in one of my seminars this year on how our society tends to scoff at the fantastic, unlike nineteenth century German writers like Goethe who tended to experience the world fantastically. I brought up our relationship with technology, and people's minds tended to shift. We live in constant fear that some faceless person could steal all our personal information (hello, fae folk) or that by going to the wrong website (aka "the dark forest") we could lose everything we have. We never know whether who we're interacting with online is real or just a bot. It's not that the fantastic is gone. It's like you said-we can explain a lot about nature now, but we still have fantastic interactions with the world around us in different ways.
This is actually a very interesting topic.
1. Persecution is usually only said to be for people in religion who are zealous about spreading their beliefs, but history also shows us that it’s not only these people but there was another issue happening in the midst of the mysticism. Back during those times for example, Galileo he was persecuted heavily by the church for his discoveries.
Which turns out later he was correct.
Which brings me to another point:
2. The Bible is a collection of different writings and most of the Old Testament is an historical narrative the first five books written by Moses who had gotten this information from God
One thing that is mentioned about the history of people Is in Genesis where it talks about the Tower of Babel. The people were trying to reach God because at that point all of them had one culture and one language but as they built it God looks down and tells the angels to confuse them so that they don’t reach the heavens.
Talking about this particular event and then comparing it to the modern day leaves a person to question. There was a belief for so long not to reach the heavens because of what had happened, and now because of science and technology we have gone beyond the earth, walked on the moon (for those who believe that), we have pictures of other planets and other galaxies.... where would we be now if we had not reached there? The Tower of Babel was supposed to be the moments cultures had separated, but I guess in any circumstance it takes a great amount of faith to believe it
We STILL can't build a tower into heaven. Whether we ever will is open to speculation. But now I wonder if God will allow us to stay up there when we try.
Prepare to be disillusioned. The Moon and Mars are not Heaven, unless we make it so.
Another great video. It's love for you to do one on the history of science.
Great video
I'm waiting for the next big break through in science and the exploration of the conscious mind in relation to altered states of perception through the use of psychedelics.
I think that's where the 'magic' and 'enchantment' live. From the ancient cave paintings of mystical creatures, to the modern beliefs in ufo's.
There is way more in the human psyche yet to be discovered
Great work, this was thought provoking
Great work, keep it up!
Excellent; I also wonder if we should step out more into a larger viewscope. Most people assume their environment is the world, say Western Secular Academia think the university walls contain the workings of the globe; but go into the streets of Seoul where a Christian will see a psychic and then go to a modern hospital believing in all the sciences there, I think the idea of disenchantment is much smaller thinking in comparison to the world's size.
Only recently stumbled upon your channel solid information to be found in your uploads . As far as the "Death of Religion" goes I feel there has been a decline in organized religious practice on the whole but no discernable decline in belief in some form of "God"
I always find the videos about magic and mythology super interesting!
As a student of history I have always thought that the religious beliefa of premodern peoples is way over stated. Individuals have always explained their actions in much more benign and benevolent ways than truth. This is because history often is written than spoken. There were many natural events that could not be predicted or explained. When we look at actions God is a much less useful explanation. I agree with you. The case for a non-religious modern world is way overstated. The case for a religious history is way overstated. We are far more like our ancestors that we are different. The change that I do see is away from traditional religions to a more personal world view. There are many problems with this but that is another conservation
Magic is simply unexplained phenomena we currently lack the ability to reliably measure or recreate. The preponderance of stories leads me to believe there is at least an ounce of truth to them, but all such matters should be viewed with a heavy dose of skepticism.
Wonderful channel, great to have found you! About philosophy and science, I don't think their purpose is to suck wonder out of the world... (!)... In my humble opinion, their purpose is to expand our boundaries of what wonder can be.
I'd humbly suggest you search and later do a video on what do all major religions have in common. That was an enlightening journey for me and I think you may find it beneficial. Kind regards
I would love to open up some of those Magical books from Ancient Egypt. I think that the spells may actually work. You really must believe!
Well articulated! Thank you for this.
Can you do a video on Thelema? Maybe not your area of expertise, but I'd love to see one.
This is well interesting. I'm from the UK and I had no idea a whopping 32% of people here believed in necromancy! Where are they all? I want to hang out with the necromancers!
👀
For those of us who do still believe in magic, there is a saying. "yesterday's magic is today's science.". The problem is religion, science and magic are essentially different lenses looking at the same subject. Existence. Religion is about telling you what is based upon believe with no evidence. Science is about telling you what is based upon proof. The interesting thing about proof from science is its only a fact until proven wrong so it allows for "oops" moments as collective understanding changes and shifts. Finally magic is a way of working with what is based upon a mix of science and I would say "belief".
Folks often think about "magic" as harry potter like stuff with robes and wands, flying and fireballs. Though there are some ritualistic symbolism often used in modern magical revival movements, something often over looked is exactly what is pointed in this video. Those who practiced magic where learned individuals who studied the world and how they could interact with it. DC comics as a great quote in their comic series "the books of magic". One of the characters says "Science is a way of talking about the universe. Magic is a way of talking to the universe in a way it can't ignore." My point is they fell hand in hand, and that is why I agree magic will never fully die out.
brilliant channel and episode 👏👌👍
I have not read Jason A. Josephson-Storm's book yet, allthough I have read other works of his (he has written a very interesting book on the "invention" of religion in Meiji-period Japan), but now, after you have spoken about it, I think I will give it a go, as it seems very interesting :).
I will have to say that I am not really sure about your take on Nietzsche, as I think personally he did not really mean the "death of religion" by his famous quote: "God is Dead", but more: the death of christian morality which in some kind of Robert Bellah like civil religion, "ruled" over the European population for a long time, but that modern tidings have "killed" of this connection... all though I am not sure either. Nietzsche is a tough read (sometimes I think, he himself did not really knwo what he wrote about) and my interpretation can be wrong. XD
Otherwise, per usual, a great vid! Modern belief in "magic" (like always, there will be a definition discourse regarding the term, but I understand a 8-9 minute video isn't enough to delpth into that kind of thing) is a very interesting subject indeed! And I cannot wait to read Jospehson-Storm's book!
Nietzsche was being more literal than that, being influenced by German academic criticism of the Bible. He was saying that he believed this grand narrative about God, which formed the basis of institutional Christendom, was more like swiss cheese or a house of cards, fragile and full of holes, and that it was ultimately destined to collapse. Of course, some Christians themselves eventually responded to Nietzsche's criticism, but many others did not. I think he underestimated how religious beliefs can survive even in a fractured, postmodern world, even if they don't look quite the same. And his faith in 19th century higher criticism was also premature.
I’d love to see you make more videos about magick
I agree! I would like to see a lot more on magick and mysticism.
Yes please.
Absolutely, this episode alone has made me stop in my tracks. I think more of your excellent and well balanced insight on the history of myth, magic and the supernatural would be so valuable. Keep up the great work!
Check out channel: Middle eastern mysteries
The Spiritualist movement also spawned the Theosophical Society, which believed itself to be scientifically rigorous even though dealing in the occult. The Theosophists were searching for "the secret science" hidden within the wisdom traditions of the world's religions, albeit cluttered with cultural mores and so fourth.
Thanks for the book recommendation!
One of the things that frequently bothers me in studies that seem to reflect a decrease in religion, they almost always use terms like 'belief in God', which seems oddly specific, and not particularly reflective of religion as a whole, especially with the rise of neopaganism, resurgence of traditional paganism, and the spread of religions like Buddhism, Hinduism, and Jainism.
It makes me doubt the rigorousness of the study.
Dr. Jason Josephson-Storm: Bad boy of disenchantment.
8:24 "Because I'm super into magic and the history of science" That about sums it up and that explains the contradiction, all captured in the soul of man.
What I've learned from this chanel. All Scholars of Religion look BADASS.
A soul patch makes you look pretentious, not "BADASS".
Alan Moore wood define Magic as the interplay between language and the unconscious mind
Well, I'm pretty sure that no city/town in the United States has a 13th Street...
Yeah, and no highrise building has a 13th floor.
I just have to say that I'm impressed that you discuss religion so much without ever seeing bias. Can you make a video concerning the Mary Magdalene and Jesus marriage conspiracy old?
great vid love your content
I'd love to hear you comment on the new alien based religious movements such as the Raelians.
Great episode! The decline of adherence to organized religion doesn’t automatically prove that humans are becoming more rational and sceptical. And even the most poetic of poets as in the one quoted here, might just be the struggling and expressing of the disenfranchisement of a single philosopher, who might not notice that his own personal growth and feeling of disconnect with his world might be intermingled wit his lost childhood innocence grafted onto society at large!
I hope you will do an episode exploring how religion changed during and after the Bronze Age collapse, 1,100 BCE, if it looked anything like 70 CE with the fall of the second temple, and/or modern times.
Thanks!
Super interesting video! I was raised as an evangelical Christian and thought when I left the church I had left all "magic" behind but found I am constantly coming across beliefs I have that are not consistent with my status as a non-believer. I have accepted this and reject those beliefs when I realize I still believe them.
I think the mindset that's often overlooked is the adaptability of magical belief. Say science proves that witchcraft is the conscious or subconscious manipulation of quantum effect to coax probability towards a favorable outcome over a series of small events. A lot of people who subscribe to chaos magic's beliefs already think this. Then I just focus more on learning quantum programming. I don't care if it's "magic" in the sense of some mystic unknowable force, I just need it to function.
Interesting observation I've found while reading Richard Kiekepher's Magic in Middle Ages, that among scholars, who wrote about magic in the middle ages (and even earlier), there were people, thay considered themselves sceptical and applied their scepticism towards some of the practices and spells they heard of, but they did it selectively.
I think - at some point, magic in public eye ceased to be mundane and was forced into the corner, that was considered opposite of culture, of being civilized.
You all know, what often happens when something gets denounced or forbidden? It gets appealing. Popular.
Now, the magic is everything, that is impossible, everything, that establishment says you're irrational or stupid to believe, everything that is too good to be true.
And people _love_ that. If it sounds good enough, it doesn't have to be real. Believing in it might be more, than enough.
Magic was strawmanned so much, that the strawman became "the new cool".
I wonder, what if we called modern science - a magic, instead? If people embraced the term "natural magic" as continuation of older traditions, but were as critical of the unfalsifiable and incorrect methods and theories, as they are now. How the practices and beliefs we consider "magic" today would've looked like?
I'm disenchanted with the ghost of my McMuffin.
Also love your work. Much thanks.
A lot of East Asian nations practice fortune telling using a variety of methods, including I Ching divination and burnt bone reading. In Hong Kong, you can find scores of psychic and divination stalls at the Night Market, and I even did a tarot reading in South Korea. I definitely agree that magical thinking isn't going away, and I wonder what impact technology is going to have on it.
Hey man, I’m totally diggin’ the beard.
I'm an agnostic with vestigial christian leanings. I work in non profits and push constantly for justice. Its hard to explain to my "secular" friends my fascination with Christ and Christianity is in the realm of the political, i.e. Weil, Gutierrez, Yoder, Hauerwas. But that i dont find value in virgin births, runes, or any kinds of mysticism. This video is valuable to me as I reject their neo-superstition but still read sustematic theology.
Can you recommend a good introduction to magic (from an academic perspective)?
Magic as interpreted by which academic discipline? History of magic? Psychological experience? Sociology of magic -- how ideas rise in communities? One useful beginning IMO is Ian Barber's MYTH, MODEL, AND PARADIGM. It's a Rosetta Stone for study of religious and scientific ideas.
I think magic hype is group delusions based on a desire for an understanding of deep time. We live briefly and there's always so many new things to know and people to enjoy.
You are doing a great job
Man! I love the info and topics and cool stuff u talk about... and its not u... i cant pin point it... but its hard to watch as opposed to more popular educational channels like sci show. Ill keep waiting foe the evolotion of it this channel
Tho. Im sure its worth it. OH your clips are REALLY fast sometimes... the graphic ones. Like .2 seconds. That sucks.
That magic and superstition still plays a roll in humanity's neurological need for answers still exists even as religion fades seems rather obvious. That is a work I'd like to read.
I have no doubt we still collectively believe in magic, but I wish there were some way to quantify its depth. Our world is still enchanted, but I still think it's less enchanted than before. Our magic today is much more subtle and less of a "hard magic system". We might believe the Tarot cards heighten the intuition of the reader in a manner not entirely explainable by natural laws, but our ancestors literally thought the entrails of a slaughtered animal contained a definite message from the spiritual world about the future.
Do a video about Theosophy, please 😊
To seal the spell every time,
Let the spell be spake in rhyme
The last time I was this early, I arrived before the allotted time.
Very interesting take. I was always very interested in the spiritualists and theosophy movements of the late 1800's and this narrative of "magic" disappearing in the modern and posmdoern world didn't seem right to me. What I think happens is that we entered an era where at least in parts of the West, people do not accept traditional religion, but they still accept the supernatural, although in their own terms.
Also it's a time where science does not fights supernatural beliefs, but feeds them. That last assertion may seem weird. But think how peddlers of woo, use words like quantum, how people that belief in the annunakis talk about genetic modification, etc. It seems that every new discovery in science creates new ways for people to make their magical beliefs seem more plausible.
*Note: I know that science actually doesn't make those beliefs more plausible really, it just taht people use science concepts (usually misunderstood and used in ways that have nothing to do with their definitions in their scientific fields) to create new room for their supernatural beliefs.
In the end maybe the supernatural is an inherent part of how human brains function and it will be always be there and maybe not, and skeptics can fight for it to be eliminated. I just don't know, but it's good food for thought.
Great video in general.
My thoughts:
the decline of institutional religions (mainly) in European populations is assumed to be driven by loss of belief. It's ignoring the rise of "Dechurched Christians" and the people who describe themselves as "Spiritual but not religious". I think we also tend to downplay the persistence of historic Atheism, not getting tortured to death is a good (bad) incentive for going to Church on a regular basis.
My personal observations, some of the most vehemently anti-religious people I've know where also superstitious though they didn't recognize it as such. One person who was an absolute disaster of a roommate wouldn't discuss financial problems since the mention of bad possibilities would bring them into existence. Others talk about Nature as a person with emotions, not understanding that they were talking about a Goddess. A lot of Atheists believe in a transcendent State or Race or the Market Place which somehow has rules outside of the actions of its membership.
I think we're far away from losing our beliefs in magic.
Another top notch video.
I thought you were another channel of Mr. Mythos for some reason. XD
You should check him out. He is new, but pretty good and well-researched.
TH-cam notification system either sucks or is purposefully designed to punish small channels that don't upload frequently and regularly. I am subscribed, I have hit the bell and still I get to know of a new video 4 full days later. I suppose I should be grateful that youtube has not unsubscribed me altogether, as I have heard has happened to other people. Apologies for the off topic rant, btw.
i think the most important key to understanding all of this is to recognize religion as a political, socio-economic framework. and the arrangements within may continue on from the shamanic priests of hunter gathers to organizations as vast as the catholic church. myth has never ended and religion has only be reformatted in supposedly disenchanted post-industrial societies as a form of control without any particular 'god'. rather, absent a 'traditional religion', a collective and state-defined myth is instilled in the populace in the form of social, political and economic pressures. people have said that communism is/was a religion. they were more or less right. in the same light, consumer capitalism, especially 'american essentialism' and its associated mores also amount to a type of religion. religion is statecraft.
Very interesting.
Great video.
Love this discussion. I don't think humanity has ever really become any less disenchanted overall. It's easy to look at ancient and modern tribal societies as being "stupid" and "backwards" and to try and drive a wide wedge between religion and science, but what we call "science" is just a different form of gathering knowledge the same way we always have. People didn't believe that a deity pulled the sun across the sky in a chariot because they were morons-- it seemed like many, the best explanation for something we didn't know. And despite our wealth of scientific knowledge gained over the past several hundred years, there are still plenty of things we don't know, and I expect that to continue. There have been a number of attempts by scientists to declare that we know everything, or almost everything, but as science churns on, we uncover questions at the same rate as we discover answers. And so we continue to fill in the gaps in our knowledge with best guesses, even those that seem totally impossible and at odds with rational discovery,
Wow man, that is a very well researched video that reflects reality. BTW I'm a religious studies student, I fight for secular values and also practice occultism lol
I don’t wanna practice occultism but I’m always curious of your experiences
Wow this is a badass video. I've always rejected disenchantment, it doesn't seem to fit, plus, modern tech seems enchanted enough.