+scarecrow gamer I actually had an idea regarding a series of small plates that I made a short video on which you can view here: th-cam.com/video/9QaF2EUYT0E/w-d-xo.html
+Mikey Busch while a few early risers would stop to watch while out walking their dogs or something. This place had a lot of elderly people living there. A lot which would still be asleep when I was filming.
Issue is you were using steel vs bronze. It does however show the usefulness of the Linothorax armor as if it could cut down steels ability to go through. It should be great against bronze in my mind.
A very good point. Also as I said to another viewer the hard and relatively immovable backing means that the material was forced to take on more than if it were on a body that has some give and protective movement reflexes. All things considered. I ended up putting an inferior form of linothorax (as it is cotton, not very well formed and with crap "glue") through a level of stress test that the real stuff would have never undergone. And it didn't do all that poorly. Which makes me think that the real stuff in it's proper place and time must have been very impressive. Some years now removed from the time of this test, with a lot more off-camera experimentation and reading under my belt. I feel confident that I could at some point revisit this. Although I am no longer all too interested in how it performs against damage. Instead there are some unaddressed things regarding what we can and do know about this armor type. Such as the likely composition of the glues (which I have a few fairly sound ideas about). Or the grade of materials that would have been most common.
This is one of a few videos on this subject which you can find on my channel. In another video I showed how I made this. I also made a later video with another idea for cheap homemade armor. But these were early experiments. I was toying with the idea. Knowing what I do now, I know that such armor can be made much better. I wouldn't use this specific make for substantial armor. In time I plan to review a good book I read on the subject (and address my concerns with that book). After which I will be uploading more experimental videos. This will not be for some time though. As I'm currently away from home on a work trip (until mid may).
Badly glued... Strikes to soft... Lino could be much more if correctly glued... This is more of a gambeson. A good made lino (kevlar with metallinlays) could easily stop a 9mm
The tree makes the test invalid, because it makes it impossible to thrust or cut more than a couple centimeters deep. The points in your thrusts were stopped by the tree, not the piece of armor.
I like to think of it more as a test that is weighted against the armor being successful in order to really put it through its paces... To explain, with a hard solid backing the armor has nowhere to go. Without a soft fleshy mass that moves away from the impact slightly when hit, the armor is made to take the near full force of the blow with out any real dispersion of said force. Imagine how much better it would perform if some of that impact were absorbed by a fatty and watery mass (we're mostly water by weight) that shift on or just before impact reflexively away from the blow. But I can definitely agree that the test isn't as informative as one might like as to the real effects of how it would perform as worn armor. Unfortunately these were the constraints of my ability to test at the time. I've thought about this a lot and I think I've come up with a frame that would respond realistically to blows. It's something I'd like to build and try out in the future.
That's entirely possible. Thinking about it, I was wearing a not so great gambeson that was restrictive. But perhaps weak strikes act to balance things out. Considering that my target had a hard immovable backing. Which would be unlike striking a person. where there would be some reaction to an incoming blow and some give.
I'm a little more concerned with things like accuracy, Breath pacing, measure, form, and edge alignment (where applicable). The way I see it. If the weapon has good qualities it will do most of the work as long as I enable it to do so. But to each their own I suppose.
TheHelleri yea that is true, but in a real fight you have no time to aim with accuracy and you must act quickly and with power to disable your opponent
Testing on a fixed point like tree will yeald bad testing results. It slike testing fist to face impact - if head has no roo to go - compensate kinetic energy damage will be higher. Human body is not a tree.
Not necessarily bad. Think of it this way. If it doesn't perform poorly against such a hard and immovable surface. How much better would it be on a body that has give and reacts to incoming blows. This test would be best classified as a limit of destruction test. Meaning it isolates everything but the performance of the material and it's construction. You could say it's how it performs under the worst case scenario. All that having been said... It's what I had to work with at the time. Perhaps at some future point I can revisit this with better materials and more true to life testing.
No, unfortunately it is cotton. That said I am impressed with how well cotton held up. You can see the creation process via a link in the description. I mean to revisit this with more authentic materials in the future.
TheHelleri Ive done the same thing now with a polyester cotton bed sheet and flour glue. Mines holding up incredibly well. I found the glue works better when applied to layers as a thick paste rubbed in thoroughly, rather than as a thin batter.
Something I will keep in mind going forward. Thanks for sharing. And having brought this back to the front of my mind. I actually just ordered some Linen canvas and rabbit glue.
Something else you may be interested in...Apparently (and I only recently learned this) cotton was at least partially used. This is a big surprise to me as I was under the false impression that cotton was a new world plant. There is a lot of stuff I've learned about this recently. Mostly it comes down to a book I've been reading: Reconstructing Ancient Linen Body Armor: Unraveling the Linothorax Mystery. By Gregory S. Aldrete, Scott Bartell, and Alicia Aldrete. The book is written based off a 7 year (and still on going) study and experiments at the University of Wisconsin. They compiled all historical (contemporary to it's use) references and art work. Categorized it and put it into a database. They conferred with historians, experimental archeologists, and re-creationists to get the most complete picture of linothorax to date. Then they sourced work out to grad students and faculty to make the stuff with as accurate materials as they could get. And did a vast array of tests. And they uncovered a lot of valuable information. So I've been pouring through this book, and taking notes (they hit and overcome a lot of stumbling blocks. So it's a great way to learn from others mistakes instead of making them myself). But even with all the work they did on it there is still a lot of questions to be answered. The focus of their work (for sake of being as scientific and quantifiable as possible) was very narrow. It comes down to material composition and resistance to projectile weapons. So I'm building an every growing list of stuff I want to try for further discovery. Ordering new materials and tools almost weekly. And pretty soon I should be ready to begin in earnest with my own (now hopefully much more informed) work.
so how viable is it to make some of these plates and line the inside of your jacket? i live in a bad area and most people here really have it in for me and i want some protection against your standard street knives such as switchblades and butterfly knives. is this an effective and practical body armor that i could use in my day to day life?
The cotton isn't bad. But I've since had a lot of crafting experience with linen (as in from flax). Linen is far superior for the purpose. I wouldn't consider this as an armor liner though. This stuff isn't exactly light. A full linothorax would be about half the weight of a bronze cuirass. This would weigh a jacket down. Things would sag and turn at odd angles...This armor type is meant to be strapped against the body. Another thing is that the problem with any series of plates armor is that plates have gaps and a lot of them (10-20% of a series of plates armor like lamellar or a coat of plates can be gaps). Not as much of problem when this stuff would have been used, given the gaps were typically smaller than the thickness of what might want to pass between them. And that thrusting at a gap often creates a pinch and bind effect. But we're far removed from the bronze and iron age. The typical carry blade these days is a lot thinner, harder, and sharper than most common knives of that time would have been. Of course wearing a full thorax/cuirass is wholly impractical. If one felt the need to have some makeshift protection I'd suggest aiming for striking a balance between all the factors (weight, expense, time to make etc.) A thick leather weight lifting belt might be a good start. Leather isn't great at stopping thrusts. But when it's thick enough (such as with lifting belts) it can provide some protection. One can just buy an already made lifting belt. There is no special level of access needed and it would definitely be better than nothing in the context of the situation given. Another thing about a lifting belt thing is that you could layer linen onto it. Two layers of glued and sewed down thick canvas linen on the top side of a lifting belt might be sufficient to get the deflection effect discovered by Aldrete's team at the University of Wisconsin (there's a good experimental archeology study book by them called "Reconstructing Ancient Linen Body Armor: Unraveling the Linothorax Mystery). As well as increase the stopping ability of the belt. As a matter of theory-craft (as in don't depend your life on my advice). A lifting belt would cover the most vital and unprotected organs, without being cumbersome. It would offer some more immediate protection and act as platform to be built out into more substantial armor over time.
@@The1Helleri right, and this is what i usually do. i have a thick leather jacket that i usually wear but it restricts movement and is heavy, but i've gotten used to wearing it. however, as my martial arts style (taekwando) requires a lot of movement, i was thinking of having linen armor plated lining my stomach, as i've found thats where most of these guys try to go for them stabbing me. if not, my ribs do a pretty decent job at protecting me if im at an odd angle. i have a tight-wearing hoodie, (it's more of a muscle-shirt with a hoodie attached) and i was hoping to have these plated lining the inside of it, so that it would kinda serve as the strap, and hold it tight against my abdomen. a full linothorax cuirass was not at all what i was thinking of, just some extra protection without the restricted movement.
I was not powering blows as hard as I could, true. The thing is...It's against a tree. Which within the framework of what was being done here is an object with an amount of inertia that is effectively impossible to overcome. Definitely not the kind of object you want to give it your all against, unless your aim is hairline fractures, torn tendons, and a concussion or worse. I used the amount of force I intuited to be most effective while still remaining somewhat accurate and staying relatively safe. However there is more force being used here than it may seem. There are some lessening effects in what is perceptible here. Firstly my body is largely out of frame much of the time. Notice many of the blows seem to be held against the target longer than they need to be. That's because there is some leaned in weight being applied as well as some push off. Also the padding does a lot to dampen sound.
@@The1Helleri fair enough. I wasn't trying to flame, to me it just didn't look like the amount of force I would expect to be applied in a real combat setting. But I appreciate the video nonetheless
@@m33tballa Perfectly fine. Rewatching it after all this time since I made it I can see how it doesn't have the look of being impactful and requires a bit of explanation. The fact of the matter is that a tree was not a great thing to strap the target to (just what I had to work with unfortunately). Would have been much better to have something with some give to it when struck. Oh but... since I made this I have read a really good book on the subject. A guy out of the University of Wisconsin basically did a crap ton of experimental archeology and collation of available information. It all went into a book called "Reconstructing Ancient Linen Body Armor: Unraveling the Linothorax Mystery" This book has some highly detailed information in it. They basically took all known images and references to the stuff from ancient times and organized it so they could do even as much as to point out stylistic changes between generations of wearers. Then they rigorously tested the crap out of their reconstructions after figuring out what methods were necessary to even make the stuff. This book even has pages of tables from their arrow fire tests showing weights, newtons of force, distances, draw weights, head types etc. and the results of each instance of testing. They even tried to see if doing things like offsetting the layers slightly improved their resistivity or deflective capability (the answer is not substantively enough to have been worth doing regularly). It's a really good read if one is interested in this sort of thing.
@@The1Helleri interesting, I mean, my understanding of linothorax is that it's protection is very limited but better than nothing. And also weighed about the same as bronze. Dunno why they didn't just use leather instead cos I feel like that would have better protection. *Edit: I forgot that lino has leather on the inside. The other interesting thing about lino is I've read that no one really knows exactly how it was made. The suggestion is wax and animal glues but I've read people claim that those materials wouldn't work in the Aegean climate. One of histories many mysteries I guess
@@m33tballa So here is the thing to do with these sorts of claims and ideas about how it must have been that you've heard...Hold it up against the bare minimum facts of the matter. We know that Linothorax was used by soldiers in the region for hundreds of years. Why would they do that if it didn't work against the kind of threats they needed it t. Why would it be so prolifically abounding if the climate wasn't good for it? Why do we find absolutely zero examples of leather breast and back plates in actual artifact or depicted form if it was better? As for how much we know about how it was made. It's actually a lot. Scott Aldrete's work pretty much tied up the loose ends on the parts we were not sure about with actual experimentation and deep research. Like they took pictures of, chronologically organized, then analyzed over 700 decorated pieces of pottery depicting Linothorax. This allowed them to categorize the depictions by type and show even dated transitions in style. There's also something like 23 contemporary references to how it was made or what it consisted of. As well as some archeological scraps. and even preserved theater masks (which were made of glued layers of linen just like the armor). There's even in situ preserved lead weights from looms used to make the fabric. So we know a lot. I'd say it's really in the last 15 years that researchers, experimental archeologists and experts from various fields have managed to pull together the information that we've had for decades to paint the picture. But that picture is pretty clear by this point.
Also remember this is against an immovable object. Someone wearing it will move from the inertia of your blow.
Which is a very good point. Someone else pointed out that they thought the blows were weak. Maybe these two things balance out?
@@The1Helleri There's only one way to find out. We'll draw straws and hit each other! :D
considering that it could be re-enforced with leather and bronze plates/scale, this must have been a very good light armor!
+scarecrow gamer
I actually had an idea regarding a series of small plates that I made a short video on which you can view here: th-cam.com/video/9QaF2EUYT0E/w-d-xo.html
neighbors must get unlimited entertainment..
+Mikey Busch while a few early risers would stop to watch while out walking their dogs or something. This place had a lot of elderly people living there. A lot which would still be asleep when I was filming.
Issue is you were using steel vs bronze. It does however show the usefulness of the Linothorax armor as if it could cut down steels ability to go through. It should be great against bronze in my mind.
A very good point. Also as I said to another viewer the hard and relatively immovable backing means that the material was forced to take on more than if it were on a body that has some give and protective movement reflexes. All things considered. I ended up putting an inferior form of linothorax (as it is cotton, not very well formed and with crap "glue") through a level of stress test that the real stuff would have never undergone. And it didn't do all that poorly. Which makes me think that the real stuff in it's proper place and time must have been very impressive.
Some years now removed from the time of this test, with a lot more off-camera experimentation and reading under my belt. I feel confident that I could at some point revisit this. Although I am no longer all too interested in how it performs against damage. Instead there are some unaddressed things regarding what we can and do know about this armor type. Such as the likely composition of the glues (which I have a few fairly sound ideas about). Or the grade of materials that would have been most common.
As well as iron which during antiquity was also quite soft. Linothorax wouldn’t have been used for as long as it was if it was useless.
Wow it's cool can you make show us how to make a thick and lightweight armor I like the idea but I dont know how to make this lovely armor 😊
This is one of a few videos on this subject which you can find on my channel. In another video I showed how I made this. I also made a later video with another idea for cheap homemade armor. But these were early experiments. I was toying with the idea. Knowing what I do now, I know that such armor can be made much better. I wouldn't use this specific make for substantial armor.
In time I plan to review a good book I read on the subject (and address my concerns with that book). After which I will be uploading more experimental videos. This will not be for some time though. As I'm currently away from home on a work trip (until mid may).
Badly glued... Strikes to soft... Lino could be much more if correctly glued... This is more of a gambeson. A good made lino (kevlar with metallinlays) could easily stop a 9mm
The tree makes the test invalid, because it makes it impossible to thrust or cut more than a couple centimeters deep. The points in your thrusts were stopped by the tree, not the piece of armor.
I like to think of it more as a test that is weighted against the armor being successful in order to really put it through its paces...
To explain, with a hard solid backing the armor has nowhere to go. Without a soft fleshy mass that moves away from the impact slightly when hit, the armor is made to take the near full force of the blow with out any real dispersion of said force.
Imagine how much better it would perform if some of that impact were absorbed by a fatty and watery mass (we're mostly water by weight) that shift on or just before impact reflexively away from the blow.
But I can definitely agree that the test isn't as informative as one might like as to the real effects of how it would perform as worn armor. Unfortunately these were the constraints of my ability to test at the time.
I've thought about this a lot and I think I've come up with a frame that would respond realistically to blows. It's something I'd like to build and try out in the future.
Tree also makes penetration easier.
the strikes where to weak :v
That's entirely possible. Thinking about it, I was wearing a not so great gambeson that was restrictive. But perhaps weak strikes act to balance things out. Considering that my target had a hard immovable backing. Which would be unlike striking a person. where there would be some reaction to an incoming blow and some give.
I'm a little more concerned with things like accuracy, Breath pacing, measure, form, and edge alignment (where applicable). The way I see it. If the weapon has good qualities it will do most of the work as long as I enable it to do so. But to each their own I suppose.
TheHelleri yea that is true, but in a real fight you have no time to aim with accuracy and you must act quickly and with power to disable your opponent
TheHelleri make some test in bronze plate :o
Something I'd like to be able to do one day. For the moment that's out of my budget and technical ability to take on unfortunately.
Testing on a fixed point like tree will yeald bad testing results. It slike testing fist to face impact - if head has no roo to go - compensate kinetic energy damage will be higher. Human body is not a tree.
Not necessarily bad. Think of it this way. If it doesn't perform poorly against such a hard and immovable surface. How much better would it be on a body that has give and reacts to incoming blows.
This test would be best classified as a limit of destruction test. Meaning it isolates everything but the performance of the material and it's construction. You could say it's how it performs under the worst case scenario.
All that having been said... It's what I had to work with at the time. Perhaps at some future point I can revisit this with better materials and more true to life testing.
Is it linen?
No, unfortunately it is cotton. That said I am impressed with how well cotton held up. You can see the creation process via a link in the description. I mean to revisit this with more authentic materials in the future.
TheHelleri Ive done the same thing now with a polyester cotton bed sheet and flour glue. Mines holding up incredibly well. I found the glue works better when applied to layers as a thick paste rubbed in thoroughly, rather than as a thin batter.
Something I will keep in mind going forward. Thanks for sharing. And having brought this back to the front of my mind. I actually just ordered some Linen canvas and rabbit glue.
Something else you may be interested in...Apparently (and I only recently learned this) cotton was at least partially used. This is a big surprise to me as I was under the false impression that cotton was a new world plant. There is a lot of stuff I've learned about this recently. Mostly it comes down to a book I've been reading: Reconstructing Ancient Linen Body Armor: Unraveling the Linothorax Mystery. By Gregory S. Aldrete, Scott Bartell, and Alicia Aldrete.
The book is written based off a 7 year (and still on going) study and experiments at the University of Wisconsin. They compiled all historical (contemporary to it's use) references and art work. Categorized it and put it into a database. They conferred with historians, experimental archeologists, and re-creationists to get the most complete picture of linothorax to date.
Then they sourced work out to grad students and faculty to make the stuff with as accurate materials as they could get. And did a vast array of tests. And they uncovered a lot of valuable information. So I've been pouring through this book, and taking notes (they hit and overcome a lot of stumbling blocks. So it's a great way to learn from others mistakes instead of making them myself).
But even with all the work they did on it there is still a lot of questions to be answered. The focus of their work (for sake of being as scientific and quantifiable as possible) was very narrow. It comes down to material composition and resistance to projectile weapons. So I'm building an every growing list of stuff I want to try for further discovery. Ordering new materials and tools almost weekly. And pretty soon I should be ready to begin in earnest with my own (now hopefully much more informed) work.
so how viable is it to make some of these plates and line the inside of your jacket? i live in a bad area and most people here really have it in for me and i want some protection against your standard street knives such as switchblades and butterfly knives.
is this an effective and practical body armor that i could use in my day to day life?
The cotton isn't bad. But I've since had a lot of crafting experience with linen (as in from flax). Linen is far superior for the purpose. I wouldn't consider this as an armor liner though. This stuff isn't exactly light. A full linothorax would be about half the weight of a bronze cuirass. This would weigh a jacket down. Things would sag and turn at odd angles...This armor type is meant to be strapped against the body. Another thing is that the problem with any series of plates armor is that plates have gaps and a lot of them (10-20% of a series of plates armor like lamellar or a coat of plates can be gaps).
Not as much of problem when this stuff would have been used, given the gaps were typically smaller than the thickness of what might want to pass between them. And that thrusting at a gap often creates a pinch and bind effect. But we're far removed from the bronze and iron age. The typical carry blade these days is a lot thinner, harder, and sharper than most common knives of that time would have been.
Of course wearing a full thorax/cuirass is wholly impractical. If one felt the need to have some makeshift protection I'd suggest aiming for striking a balance between all the factors (weight, expense, time to make etc.) A thick leather weight lifting belt might be a good start. Leather isn't great at stopping thrusts. But when it's thick enough (such as with lifting belts) it can provide some protection. One can just buy an already made lifting belt. There is no special level of access needed and it would definitely be better than nothing in the context of the situation given.
Another thing about a lifting belt thing is that you could layer linen onto it. Two layers of glued and sewed down thick canvas linen on the top side of a lifting belt might be sufficient to get the deflection effect discovered by Aldrete's team at the University of Wisconsin (there's a good experimental archeology study book by them called "Reconstructing Ancient Linen Body Armor: Unraveling the Linothorax Mystery). As well as increase the stopping ability of the belt.
As a matter of theory-craft (as in don't depend your life on my advice). A lifting belt would cover the most vital and unprotected organs, without being cumbersome. It would offer some more immediate protection and act as platform to be built out into more substantial armor over time.
@@The1Helleri right, and this is what i usually do. i have a thick leather jacket that i usually wear but it restricts movement and is heavy, but i've gotten used to wearing it. however, as my martial arts style (taekwando) requires a lot of movement, i was thinking of having linen armor plated lining my stomach, as i've found thats where most of these guys try to go for them stabbing me. if not, my ribs do a pretty decent job at protecting me if im at an odd angle. i have a tight-wearing hoodie, (it's more of a muscle-shirt with a hoodie attached) and i was hoping to have these plated lining the inside of it, so that it would kinda serve as the strap, and hold it tight against my abdomen. a full linothorax cuirass was not at all what i was thinking of, just some extra protection without the restricted movement.
@@sergeantsonso3490 Hence the weight lifting belt.
You would be better served investing in some quality running shoes and keeping the laces up tight
@@googlesmostwantedfrog147 yeah okay backseat badass, followed your advice, got expelled for leaving campus.
Bruh those were some really wussy strikes hehehe
I was not powering blows as hard as I could, true. The thing is...It's against a tree. Which within the framework of what was being done here is an object with an amount of inertia that is effectively impossible to overcome. Definitely not the kind of object you want to give it your all against, unless your aim is hairline fractures, torn tendons, and a concussion or worse. I used the amount of force I intuited to be most effective while still remaining somewhat accurate and staying relatively safe.
However there is more force being used here than it may seem. There are some lessening effects in what is perceptible here. Firstly my body is largely out of frame much of the time. Notice many of the blows seem to be held against the target longer than they need to be. That's because there is some leaned in weight being applied as well as some push off. Also the padding does a lot to dampen sound.
@@The1Helleri fair enough. I wasn't trying to flame, to me it just didn't look like the amount of force I would expect to be applied in a real combat setting. But I appreciate the video nonetheless
@@m33tballa Perfectly fine. Rewatching it after all this time since I made it I can see how it doesn't have the look of being impactful and requires a bit of explanation. The fact of the matter is that a tree was not a great thing to strap the target to (just what I had to work with unfortunately). Would have been much better to have something with some give to it when struck.
Oh but... since I made this I have read a really good book on the subject. A guy out of the University of Wisconsin basically did a crap ton of experimental archeology and collation of available information. It all went into a book called "Reconstructing Ancient Linen Body Armor: Unraveling the Linothorax Mystery"
This book has some highly detailed information in it. They basically took all known images and references to the stuff from ancient times and organized it so they could do even as much as to point out stylistic changes between generations of wearers.
Then they rigorously tested the crap out of their reconstructions after figuring out what methods were necessary to even make the stuff.
This book even has pages of tables from their arrow fire tests showing weights, newtons of force, distances, draw weights, head types etc. and the results of each instance of testing.
They even tried to see if doing things like offsetting the layers slightly improved their resistivity or deflective capability (the answer is not substantively enough to have been worth doing regularly). It's a really good read if one is interested in this sort of thing.
@@The1Helleri interesting, I mean, my understanding of linothorax is that it's protection is very limited but better than nothing. And also weighed about the same as bronze. Dunno why they didn't just use leather instead cos I feel like that would have better protection. *Edit: I forgot that lino has leather on the inside. The other interesting thing about lino is I've read that no one really knows exactly how it was made. The suggestion is wax and animal glues but I've read people claim that those materials wouldn't work in the Aegean climate. One of histories many mysteries I guess
@@m33tballa So here is the thing to do with these sorts of claims and ideas about how it must have been that you've heard...Hold it up against the bare minimum facts of the matter.
We know that Linothorax was used by soldiers in the region for hundreds of years. Why would they do that if it didn't work against the kind of threats they needed it t. Why would it be so prolifically abounding if the climate wasn't good for it? Why do we find absolutely zero examples of leather breast and back plates in actual artifact or depicted form if it was better?
As for how much we know about how it was made. It's actually a lot. Scott Aldrete's work pretty much tied up the loose ends on the parts we were not sure about with actual experimentation and deep research. Like they took pictures of, chronologically organized, then analyzed over 700 decorated pieces of pottery depicting Linothorax. This allowed them to categorize the depictions by type and show even dated transitions in style.
There's also something like 23 contemporary references to how it was made or what it consisted of. As well as some archeological scraps. and even preserved theater masks (which were made of glued layers of linen just like the armor). There's even in situ preserved lead weights from looms used to make the fabric.
So we know a lot. I'd say it's really in the last 15 years that researchers, experimental archeologists and experts from various fields have managed to pull together the information that we've had for decades to paint the picture. But that picture is pretty clear by this point.