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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ธ.ค. 2019
- Ancient sources talk about a common and relatively cheap armor called Linothorax. As its name says, it should have been made of layers of linen fabric, cheaper and lighter than the metal breast armors. Even if none of them have been found there are some theories about how they could have been made:
- Layers of glued fabric. This is the theory that is being reconstructed here. The layers would be joined with Rabbit Glue.
- Layers of hardened leather. It could be hardened boiling it.
- Quilted patches of hardened linen fabric. It could be hardened with vinegar or Rabbit Glue).
- A few layers of fabric made with braided linen.
The material used here are quite simple: loads of old clothes made with natural fibers (linen or cotton), White Glue (PVA), some little pieces of leather and 8 metallic rings. Obviously this is not a scientific recosntruction (we should change all the cotton fabric by hand made linen fabrics and substitute PVA by Rabbit Glue), but the weight and resistance is quite similar.
This kind of armor was very popular in the Greek World between the 4th and the 1st centuries BC. The armies of the Greco-Persian wrs and the soldiers of Alexander the Great wore this kind of armor.
Prior to its popularization most of the armies were composed by rich tenants that could afford the expensive metal armors. After the popularization of citizen armies in Greece, Linothorax became a cheap option to protect thousands of men. It had key advantages compared to a metal breast armor: it was cheaper and it was fresher under the torrid conditions of the Mediterranean summer.
Finally, during the 1st century BC, chaimail began its popularization. Iron production was higher so the price lowered, and it had several advantages: was more resistant, easy to repair and unlike a Linothorax, could last decades under a good manteinance.
BTW, you will not have problems if you mix cotton and linen. They are natural materials and they glue well. But do not use synthetic materials or you will have problems to keep the layers together!
So I’m getting actual linen shipped in but only a bit. Just wanted to be really sure that Mixing cotton clothes with the linen won’t be a problem. Also what glue is used by you?
@Gabe Crews I think the issue is that the more artificial shirts just dont take the glue well
That linothorax was surprisingly good quality considering it came from old clothes.
I think it may cause issues if they aren't natural fiber. I imagine a layer or 2 of grandpa's polyester in the mix might delaminate
Neutral fabrics all the way, or else compensate with special glue. I made that mistake the first time thinking the glue would bond universally to all fabrics, it did not, especially with dry fit material 😭
hay cloth is cloth right?
@@trosclair434genus4 oh NOOoo!!! DDD:
I would suggest using a hand-roller or better yet, a rolling-pin to press the layers together better, working from the center outward to try and get all the wrinkles out and get the layers really tightly pressed together, even force the glue deeper into the fibers. Might also want to add a little bit of water to the glue, so it gets into the fibers better, maybe no more than 1/4 water to 3/4 glue.
Next: Massive steelwool stuffed pillows as arrow catchers
That's a superb work : it is almost impossible to notice that's made of scrap fabric, and it suits very well ! Thanks for the tips, hoplitès :)
Putting the tone on the i sounds more correct, example: hoplítes
@@NickariusSN wat
@@NickariusSN And we'd trust you, someone clearly more interested in things of Latin origin, why exactly?
This is great! Sadly, found out this vid after moving to my new house and throw the old stuff.
Well... let's acquire some new old stuff.
There is no holding you back for starting again my dude
Well it's been a year, surely you've built your wardrobe up again a bit... also thrift stores are a thing...
That is fascinating. The ratio of material and time needed to the effectivness of the armour is quite impressive
Brilliant! Off to the Anabasis.
I have been looking for a good tutorial video for a long time! Awesome job, it came out really well!
same here..!
I've been waiting for video like this for 10 years
@@marcgeerdink869 This is a DIY prop video more akin to a cosplay suit of armor. No one is actually weaving linen together for a seven layered, battle-ready linothorax.
I don't know what you were expecting 😂
@Marc Geerdink Well, if you have definitive proof of this, I'm certain there are many scholars out there who would love to see this new source... because there are no sources saying definitively what materials were used. They could mine and refine materials to make bronze, and create armour, swords, tools and jewellery with it. What makes you think they wouldn't have tried fabric armours? Everyone would have fabrics. Gambeson were popular in Europe for centuries, and today's soft armour is still made from fabrics. Were the ancient Greeks too stupid to use it too?
This is awesome 👌 I made one about 20 years ago, and have long since lost it, I'd like to make another
Great stuff, love it!
Great job!! Now you are ready to do battle with the Persians!
Realy amazing video, keep it up brother !
EPIC! great job dude!
Hello ! This video is amazing ! I will definitly try to reproduce it ! Patterns and measures can be foud somewhere ?
Thank you very much
very nice
Hey man love your work 👌
Could I trouble you for the measurements?
Magnifique linothorax bravo l'artiste salutations
You are just a very very cool guy !I am glad that among modern society I am not alone))I also want to make a Spartan linothorax, I hope it will turn out thanks to you, sorry for the English, I'm not a native speaker.
Just looked this video, it’s quite amazing to see the results. By the way for your glue what’s the percentage of mix glue water did you use?
Wow that's a lot of material. Might be more expensive than I thought
nice job man, it's really good ! it's possible to write in the description the measures and the pattern ? because i can't find him, The measures in the plan don’t appear in your description can you pass them on to me? thx man !
Thanks for a great video. Now started mine with 12 layers and just got the 7 days to wait for it dry now lol.
What glue did you use
Nvm he said he used PVA gluz
Great video! Where are the pattern measures? I seem to not be seeing them in the description
Very impressive - and well fitted to boot ! ( i've seen some that look like you're wearing a colorful box...)
(Interestingly Lindybeige claims it must be leather i.e. linen impractical...)
@@TheGoodCrusader no one knows what material these armours were really made from. There is written evidence for the use of both leather and linen armours in Greece, though there is no evidence for the use of some glued linen method
Other historical channels on this state that to best knowledge, the material was Flax linen. That’s a naturally growing plant everywhere back then. So a plant fiber linen. They don’t know the thickness, layers, or for sure if leather was used. Hybrids were noted with a waist of bronze scales.
Now, for my part, if I were making this and wanted to be relatively certain of survival, I would definitely laminate in the linen layers with a stiff material for increased protection. Some thick, hardened leather, or even shaped, thin wood would not greatly increase weight or make it any less rigid. I also have to think that as a time saver, the “ancients” (let’s never confuse that word with backward or stupid, they had the lack of our modern tech, but they were the best at their own time) would have just measured the “customer” and layered up the pieces in squares and cut everything to final fit after, then a last covering or two to make clean edges. This would be my plan with the skirt pieces. Saving time and material. These people wearing this were not always professional soldiers, but that didn’t make them less eager to survive.
@@andrewsmith9174 Stiff materials don't necessarily add protection against stabbing attacks from sharp weapons. They do however help distribute energy from heavy impacts. Hardened leather isn't especially good at resisting sharp, bladed or pointed weapons. A lot depends on the type of leather and how it is hardened. Yes, it will add some protection, as would more layers of cloth. But then no armour guarantees survival. You just hope your armour will be "good enough" on the day.
Ok now shoot it with arrows javelins and swords
Already working on making it
Awesome
Amazing Im SO doing this. Could we have a tutorial on the shieldbplease brother?
Where can I find a good template or measurements? There's nothing in the description :(
,
You'll need to measure yourself. Those are measurements for his body type and proportions. I wish I had a link to give with the info but I'm sure you can find something on tailoring.
What I am planning on doing is finding a t shirt that fits over top whatever clothing I would be wearing under the armor. Lay it flat and draw the pattern on the front. It looks like for measurements compare the chest area to where modern chest plates sit in their carriers and its dimensions. When drawing the lines that go to your sides make sure they are low enough that your arm won't be rubbing against it with every movement.
Cut the pattern out of the shirt, cut both front and back at the same time and cut only the right side vertically so you still have one piece and when layed out looks similar to 0:03
For the yoke I would use a large t shirt and do basically the same and for the flaps I will measure from the bottom of the chest armor shirt(before I cut) to maybe mid thigh and about 2 to 2 1/2 inches wide.
Hope this helps
The Proto-Gambeson title seem fitting.
Literary just old fabric glues together.
I wonder if 20s layers up front will make it heavy or bulky?
Sweet
Now you can resist against the "antifaroi".
"I covered the Dteruges with white and blue to make it more elegant"... To ALSO make it fittingly even more Greek in the meanwhile!
This was an instructive video embedded in its simplicity. So much like your armour you have shared with us: It is very simple in its parts; but the whole is very impressive.
Is there a reason you have not specifically pressed the parts with weights or so whilst they dry (Like that would have made it far too rigid to wrap around later or similar)? Or was it to basically keep the instructions as simple for all as possible (thus: the compression would present no difficulty later on in the making)?
Looks good. But can it stop an arrow?
Linothorax was never supposed to stop arrows. It is however useful against slashing attacks and light stabs.
No, but I don’t think it needed to because you have a large shield. It’s suppose to stop spear and sword jabs.
A true Greek linothorax is able to stop most arrows, with only a tiny bit of the point of the arrows making it through the back. Maybe just a slight cut at the most. But it depends on many factors, too.
Made one, it did stop an arrow from a 50 pound bow with field point arrowheads tho it did leave a "dent" on the other side, don't know how it would work out against warbows tho, at least it'd prevent you from major injuries
Could you also add the pattern measures in the description please? It would be greatly appreciated
I will try, but I need to do blueprints in Photoshop and I am having some troubles when trying to keep the scale.
@@mrc.9284 Photoshop is a great tool but a difficult one. Take your time and you will get it my friend.
@@mrc.9284 will it stop a knife blow
@@ajithsidhu7183 It isn't as simple as "yes" or "no". What type of knife? How sharp? What type of blow... stab or slash? How powerful is the blow? How many layers of fabric. What type of fabric? Yes, multiple layers of fabric will resist bladed or pointed weapons to SOME DEGREE, and generally the more layers, the better the protection. But a sharp enough blade or spike, applied with enough force will still go through even modern Kevlar vests.
Where did you get the template and what should be the proper dimensions when applying your own personal measurements?
Anyone know what string is best for tying off the D-rings onto the chest and shoulder pieces?
Could that same method but with different patterns be used to create samurai armor?😊
I read the arguments over materials used. I'll add my 2 cents worth. What was readily available, in the quantities needed? My guess would be, whatever cloth the people were wearing. That's the place I would start. If there is no supply, you are done. No production.
this is totally awesome!! though your sewing skills are something to be desired... 👀
damn i gotta use a lot of old clothes
I cant find pattern
From where did you get the pattern/measurements?
its cottonothorax.
One thing about this design that doesn't make sense to me is the strings at the front. Isn't it an obvious weakness? If someone slashes that rope apart, even one of them, your armor will essentially flap around and hinder you. And it's right at the front too.
I would guess that didn't happen often because if your wearing this you probably have a big shield and a sword or spear as well. So if they could get around your defense and offense to slice a string on your chest instead of going for the neck or other vulnerable area then your already effed😅 he's just playing with you
Genial
Looks sick! i would love to build one myself but sadly i dont have a shtton of fabric laying around.
Well, I'm sure there are some old t-shirts and bedding that you could get hold of. Charity shops are usually full of them at a fraction offthe cost of new ones. A few metres of new cotton fabric doesn't cost much either.
@@another3997 yes
Edit: Or I can sneak into my neighbours house at ni- What?
Acully buy leather and cover it in linin no one will ever know
@@user-lj8gk1nv5iExactly what i was thinking
Ahora falta solo la Sarissa, la lorica segmentata y el scutum con el agarre orizontal xd.
Pero vaya canal, con el carton yo tambien hago cositas, bn un tanque para mi hermano pequeno y un pseudo scutum pero weno
Nicely done.
Did you test it for stab and/or slash proofing after completion?
Yes, and it really works. It protects you completely from lateral cuts. I also hit it with a pointy knife and it didnt punch the armor, But probably today's PVA glue is stronger than the ancient rabbit skin glue, so I dont think that it could stop frontal and energic hits.
@@mrc.9284 bone glue is an ancient glue that becomes harder than skin glue I've seen an experiment where they used bone glue for the front part of the armor and glue made of floor for the sides. The front was able to stop arrows.
@@mrc.9284 it might stop an knife, but does it stop an spear/sword?
Is there specific measurements
Aren't you afraid of the different dyes in the clothing mixing? Or is that not an issue?
Judging by the fact that these are all old clothes and fabrics, no doubt washed many times, one would imagine the dyes are stable by now.
how do you wash it?
How much glue
Making one now. How much water has to be mixed with the glue?
50-50
@@mrc.9284 Danke! Close to finishing mine now.
@@mrc.9284 Awesome!!
where did you find the template?
This would protect me from cuts right? Like, I doubt it would protect from stabbing, but it would protect me from Swinging or hacking, yes?
If you use bone glue for the front part, it also can stop arrows from bows up to 60lb draw weight. A modern bullet proved vest can't even stop a childrens bow.
@@jarlnils435 I wouldn't quote figures like that, because you have no proof that it would in every case. How many layers of fabric? What type and weight of fabric? What weight and type of shaft and arrow head? At what distance? At what angle? Modern Kevlar can stop arrows. The kevlar fabric used in stab and spike resistant vests is somewhat different to the type used to protect from bullets.
@@another3997 18 layers of kevlar, 16 lbs bow, 7 year old archer with normal carbon children arrows on 15m. Went through. The chances that the arrow will stop is higher with my own 45lbs bow and thicker wooden arrows and Tophead arrow heads.
Metal hunting arrows cut through kevlar and flint or obsidian hunting arrows get stuck between the layers.
On linothorax only modern steel hunting arrows with bows above 30lbs go through. It can stop softer metal arrow heads. I'm still doing tests to figure out why that is.
I cant find da measures help
bellissima armatura greca guartati il mio canale roma larp
Now you just need a bronze sword
actually a spear but whatever
@@northernsines
A spear. And a sword too.
@@northernsines "aCtUalLy"
@@Briselance true, if you were in a phalanx and you got too close to your enemy, your sidearm sword was much better. However, the spear was the dominant weapon of combat.
@@Matityahu-the-God “AcTauLLy”
What glue did u use?
Its glue don't bw picky
Well, if you want authentic glue, you gotta use bone glue or wine vinegar. But if this is not essential for you, you don't need to be picky (the guy in the video used PVA)
What if you padded the entire cloth length, further, with hardened leather ? 😅😁
I was just reading somewhere that some linothorax were made with a thick leather core the linen was glued onto on both sides, so your idea has merit!
+1👍🇮🇹
Looks good, but I think the petruges are too wide and too long, if you look at ancient vase paintings the petruges go just below the crotch
the armour was not standardised so it means that is quite probably that someone use custom settings in his armo like larger or shorter petruges, it not means that the paintings show how exactly was used
@@KarlKeesel Theres a difference between stylistic, personal choices on armor, and things affecting funtionality. Too long pteruges affects functionality.
howw many layers...?
wwould wwood glue be better...?
and could you test this wwith a sharp knife or something...?
Godie [cc drep] what’s with the typing quirk? You a homestuck or something?
@@0rang.utan.bananaman199 yes... XD
Experiment with an old cotton bed sheet or tablecloth. Glue and fold it several times. Every fold doubles the number of layers. Let it dry and then stab it with some sharp knives. PVA and wood glues are basically the same, although quality varies quite a lot. For minimal stab/slash protection, I'd expect between 15 and 20 layers. For really sharp, pointed instruments, you need more. Much depends on the type/weave of the fabric used.
Experiment with an old cotton bed sheet or tablecloth. Glue and fold it several times. Every fold doubles the number of layers. Let it dry and then stab it with some sharp knives. PVA and wood glues are basically the same, although quality varies quite a lot. For minimal stab/slash protection, I'd expect between 15 and 20 layers. For really sharp, pointed instruments, you need more. Much depends on the type/weave of the fabric used.
Even though I believe historically they to be made of leather , good video
I used to work with leather and I can tell you that it isn't good for armor as it is too soft, perhaps rawhide but we don't know what linothorax are really made of. Although we believe it was made of linen for it is already a quite strong fabric and was definitely available at that time
@@roninkenshi5988 I disagree about leather being tough enough for armor. My armor I made out leather is plenty strong. Linen was very expensive, and they would've needed tons of it to make a linothorax. Also, there is no historical evidence for it, especially one being glued.
You can read in the video description that this is one of the theories about how they could be done. Anyway, as its own name says, linen should have been one of the materials (maybe the first material used? maybe the most common? Maybe the used by the wealthiest people? Maybe they were made with leather and covered with a cool and elegant layer of linen? who knows...). George Aldrete has done a deep research about them and he thinks that they were done with linen, and there is an archeological evidence of some layers of linen found in a tomb that some scholars think that could be the rests of a Linothorax (but it is still debated what the hell are that fibers).
Linen was very expensive, of course, but leather was also truly expensive. They should have belonged to families would be inherited by sons. Anyway remember that only wealthy citizens (that included slaves and farms) were phalanx men, poor people were slingers or peltats without any armor.
As you can see, many questions, but not clear archaeological evidence. All the options seem realistic and probable.
My opinion is that probably any material could be found under the cathegory of Linothorax. Probably it would depended on regional traditions, avalaible materials and it would be patched with anything that could be found. Materials could even have changed through the centuries according to availability and prizes of the raw materials.
Since they were made with light organic materials, probably we will never find any, unless something is preserved in the desert (I wish that Fayum can give us one in the future and it happened with a Roman shield).
@@mrc.9284 I just find a lack of historical evidence for linen, especially in Alderetes project. If you haven't already, go onto this link and you can find tons of disccusion about this from reenactors and historians. www.ancient-warfare.org/rat/showthread.php?tid=14678
@@mrc.9284 But still, I find your recreation very nice.
Oh! The traditional Greek mix of glue and water... good old times! 😉 just kidding, great job
1 persian disliked
how can we know it's fully functional? put the armor on a dummy and shoot an arrow at it.
To be considered functional, as with modern body armour tests, you need to specify the parameters. Armour is only tested against specific threats, and anything outside of those parameters is not likely to be stopped. So, what draw weight of bow, what weight of arrow, what type of arrowhead, how sharp and at what distance? What about spear thrusts, sword thrusts and slashes?
You can't say its functional if you didn't test it against arrows
If I spent hours on this my first thought wouldnt' be let's destroy it lol
What type and weight of arrows? What type of bow and what draw weight? What distance? The angle of the arrow on impact makes a huge difference. How much penetration should be allowed? None? 1mm, 1cm? 5cm? An arrow that penetrates the armour might wound you, but without armour, it might be fatal. What about sword cuts and stabs, or attacks with spears?
@@another3997 I guess the main takeaway is that "functional" is a super vague term when it comes to armor.
An armor is functional if it can save your live in combat. A modern bullet proved vest can't stop arrows. But makes it not functional because of it? No. It does it's job and stops bullets. And even if the arrows goes through, it can stop before it kills you or loose it's direction and not even hit you.
@@jarlnils435 your points were irrelevant considering the context. "Fully functional Greek armor" should be made to stop threats from that time. Modern vests have nothing to do with that. You have no idea if this vest can stop or redirect an arrow, because it wasn't tested.
except the fact that the Greek cuirass has close to no proof for it being made of linen,
linothorax is a modern term and was never used historically,
the most likely materials used was leather, animals were already farmed in many city states, compared to linen which happens to be hard to farm and process. linen was all ready used for expensive clothing and for the normal farmer to be equipped with a linothorax made of 13 layers of linen. would be far to expensive to equip.
however there was a text that said linen armor, the text made it sound unusual, the text could also mean a composite material or was faced with linen for decoration. I am planning to make a Greek cuirass in has a hybrid between both design with a composite of both leather and linen. however it was most likely quilted not glued
Gregory Aldrete provides numerous historical references to Greeks wearing it in his book in the subject.
I'm trying to say that linen maybe was used by the rich and was likely a covering on the armour the only surviving Greek cuirass found was made of leather.
There's no proof that they were made from leather either. And the availability of leather in large quantities, especially the type needed for armour, is not proven either. Consider the cost and difficulty of finding and processing metals used for casting weapons for every soldier. How many had the skills and equipment to do that? Yet they obviously did it on a large scale. In comparison, producing fabric is easy. Everyone has to have clothing, so growing flax was quite normal. Spinning yarn and weaving fabric are skills that most families would have.